the very simple and cute explanation to your concerns raised around the 21:00 mark is simply that House Dayne is too great a House for a marriage with House Reed, and that someone in House Dayne disapproved of Howland, and so they eloped
Disapproved enough to fake her own death and never see anyone outside of the neck to me is a bit of a stretch. Also, what was house dayne going to do if she plainly left with Howland start a war. Ned has got Howland's back which mean's roberts. I don't really see how that adds up personally.
Meera also tells Bran the story of Harenhal, and it's centered around their father. Three main points are made in that story: Lyanna saving him, the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and Howland paid attention to almost everything Ashara did at the tourney. The few times Howland is brought up in the story by non-Northerners, it's that Howland is a freak. On the flip side, Ashara is idolized. Remember, people are bigoted against the Crannaigmen.
I don't think at all that Arthur Dayne has to be alive for this theory. We don't know near enough of the specifics of the Tower of Joy to make that call. Even *without* this theory, we have the evidence of the Dayne's liking Ned enough to name the heir after him. And that's with the assumption of Arthur Dayne being dead. And we have multiple examples in lore of couples being married despite one being involved in the death of the others family. Ashara being Howland's wife and Arthur Dayne being dead are not mutually exclusive theories. EDIT I think there is so little known about the Tower of Joy and Howland/Ned returning Dawn to Starfall that we can't definitively rule in either way.
Didn't Howland stay in Ned's tent at Harrenhal? That should be on the pros list if she came to Ned's tent at Harrenhal people would assume she was there for Ned not Howland. Also the main proponent of this theory I've heard doesn't believe Arthur is alive but that he suicided to protect Jon. You should watch In Deep Geek's video on the topic. Not sure I believe it, but it is more plausible than a lot of other theories for the series that are popular.
Yeah that definitely could be a solid point I don’t remember if he specifically was in his tent! Also that is an interesting theory on Arthur why did he do that in the theory
@@TheGreaseGoblins It's been a while since i saw the video so I don't remember all the details. I'm trying to find it right now to rewatch. When I do I'll post the exact name of the video so you can find it if you'd like.
Howland was being harassed on the grounds before he was saved by Leanna. I'd imagined they'd have had Howland in their company when going feasting, dancing and jousting. The retellings and memories of everyone that isn't a Reed don't seem to include Howland at Harrenhal nor Starfall. It may just be because he's an unattractive, short, ill-kept man from a reclusive house no one recognized him, and assumed he was a servant. So if Ashara looked to Howland, for whatever reason, Barristan might have just assumed it was one of the Starks he was standing next to. Going an inch further: if the Starks were putting Howland up, and taking him to fraternize with the lords great and small they might have given him more respectable clothes to wear. Clothes that had Stark regalia on it, and he may have been mistaken for a cousin, or younger sibling by others. Or maybe Howland intentionally dressed as Ned at some point so that he could slip away and tilt as the Knight of the Laughing Tree while maintaining his anonymity. I have flat given up on staking out a stance on parentage theories because there is nowhere near enough detail on the events in the past that matter. But there's definitely plausible avenues to spin Ashara and Howland.
@@durianthesleepy Yeah. Sadly the In Deep Geek video I remember (was it really six years ago) seems to be gone along with the rest of his series on Robert's Rebellion. I'm not sure why. He does mention some of the stuff related to the theory in his livestream discussing Ashara Dayne, and he references his "recent video" on the topic but I can't find the video itself. Also I feel old, six years ago. Sigh.
I've always loved this theory, don't necessarily think it's true but I still love it. I think even if it is true though then it's more likely that Arthur Dayne is dead, the bleeding star under which Azor Ahai is born. Anyway, I do think the most likely person to have slept with Ashara is Brandon, I just can't see it being honourable Ned Stark, and we're told Brandon wasn't shy in taking what he wanted. I do have a reason for why Ashara may have hidden herself if H+A=M&J. Ned is trying to pass Jon off as his own, and got very lucky that Jon grew up to have only Stark features and no Valyrian ones. Ned wouldn't have been able to guarantee at birth though that Jon would only develop Stark features. If, as Jon grew older, his hair grew a streak of silver or his eyes looked slightly purple, how would Ned explain it. Fortunately for Ned, Targaryen's aren't the only ones with silver hair and purple eyes. House Dayne has these features too. Therefore the Ashara rumour acted as a back-up in case Jon looked more Targaryen and so it would keep people in universe away from the R+L=J conclusion. Ashara may have gone along with this as it seems that House Dayne was intertwined with Rhaegar and prophecy. We know Arthur Dayne was his oldest friend, that Rhaegar shared secrets with him and that Arthur died following Rhaegars' orders, and it is likely Lord Dayne conspired with Ned about Jon's parentage, it doesn't seem too much of a stretch to say Ashara would too. That way none of Lyanna, Arthur or Rhaegar died in vain. So Ashara goes off in secret to the Neck with Howland, just like Ned she sacrifices her honour to protect Jon and just like her brother she sacrifices her 'life'. The reason she would go secretly rather than openly is it would have seemed a bit odd if the rumoured mother of Ned Stark's bastard suddenly married a crannogman, that could just invite unwarranted questions, maybe from the crown and maybe from schemers like Varys. It was perhaps safer to play safe and just stop any inquiries at all by having Ashara 'die'. Now, back to the theory: Pros: Explains why Meera's Tourney of Harrenhall story mentions Ashara's dance partners Explains why Jojen got grey-water fever and why his eyes turned green. Ironic with Barristan's thoughts on Quentyn and Daenerys Fun princess and the frog motif Explains Meera being introduced as Howland's heir rather than Jojen. Possible explanation for "He would have killed me but for Howland Reed" Cons: No evidence No rumours in universe The pros can be explained away Lots of unsubstantiated theories need to be true Lastly, one small moment that stood out to me is the description of Ashara's eyes. Barristan and Catelyn (who must have heard it from someone) describe Ashara's eyes as haunting, whilst Meera describes Ashara's eyes as 'laughing'. Now I get that there could be thematic reasons for this, Barristan and Catelyn are haunted by the ghost of Ashara, and Howland when telling the story of the knight of the laughing tree might have tried to show more laughing imagery, etc, before all the smiles died. However, I choose to ignore this and instead view it as Howland 'knew' or saw something with Ashara that others did not. Everyone else saw Ashara as some unobtainable, mysterious beauty, whilst Howland saw her as a young girl having fun. Her eyes do not haunt him, why should they, instead they are full of laughter. In any case, it's clear that something weird went on between Ned, Howland and the Daynes. The story we're told makes no sense. Ned Stark apparently killed Arthur and caused Ashara to kill herself and then Lord Dayne still allowed Ned to stay at Starfall, father a bastard on a Dayne wetnurse and then Lord Dayne named his heir after Ned. That's plainly ridiculous and not what would have occurred. If the true situation had just been Arthur had died due to the inflexible honour of both men, but both men had acted nobly and Ned had returned Dawn to Starfall, I can see the Daynes holding no ill will to Ned. But if Ned had influenced Ashara to jump from the tower then surely Lord Dayne would hold some ill will towards Ned. Ned and Howland must have gone to Starfall with baby Jon, possibly with Wylla or maybe they met her there. Either way, she wetnursed Jon whilst Ned, Howland and Lord Dayne acted. If Robert found out about Jon who knows what he would have done. To protect Jon the three men would have agreed to some lies.
I really liked this explanation about why Ashara wiuld go into hiding. I still don't believe the theory but I think that is the best idea I have seen for this theory to work! Thank you for taking the time to give your thoughts.
My mother is 5'7, thick black curly hair and olive toned skin. I'm 5'2, fine dark auburn hair, and pale skin with freckles. My dad was 6' tall, but his mom was 5'2. My siblings are both tall, but only my sister, the 3rd child, shares our moms hair and skin color.
The thing that would be the biggest pro, is it's Howland's children telling the story of Harrenhal as if it's a family story. I don't think Arthur has to be alive at all, just the kids know way too much about this as if it's a special story to them, a story they've heard many times and told from Howland's POV, so it has to be relevant in some way, even if it's just an expo dump.
this can be a bit of a stretch and I don't know if I'm remembering correctly, but i think one possible appearance link between the kids and Ashara is that Jojen is described as being basically the same height as Meera despite being a young kid... It might be that they just stop growing earlier instead of proportionally, but it can also be hinting at the fact that he would grow to a more average height if he survived. Also saw someone claim on reddit that the fever Jojen survived as a child might've changed his eye color from purple to green but I never found any evidence of that symptom at all
The two biggest weak-points I see are John and The Blackfish. Why didn't Ned send John with Ashara and Howland? He would be much safer there than in Winterfell and it wouldn't cause Kat troubles. Why did tge marriage of Kat and Ned make the Blackfish so amgry that he left Riverrun and didn't soeak to his brother for years? If Ned already was married to Ashara it would explain the Blackfish reaction. But if Asjara wasn't a part there at all, why did he react as he did?
I view the Arthur Dayne = Mance and Ashara Dayne = Jyanna Reed as two separate theories. I don’t think the latter can’t be true without the former. Arthur could’ve been convinced by Howland not to kill Ned because it would be the best course of action to protect the King (Jon Snow). Having King’s Guard around the baby would mark it as a Targaryen; his survival would be more likely living with Ned. Arthur could have killed himself if he found it better kept his vows of serving the king. I’m not saying that’s what happened; it’s just an example demonstrating the two theories can be independent of each other. I think Arthur Dayne being alive has like a
I love this theory so much mostly because I think out of all the possible Ashara relationships it is the most GRRM sounding lmao.. very Princess and the Frog
I'm not sure Grrm would add another secret baby at this point to the stkry when we already have Jon and fAegon at this point. I also have my alternste theory that the reason Ashara went into the Stark tent was because she was sent by Elia after the Lyanna Queen but. Now what happened after and why she went into the wrong tent I'm not sure. There has to be a reason why the Daynes think so highlt of Ned despite the fact that he killed a fsmily member and the supposed affair with Ashara.
I am convinced Ashara’s daughter survived and she’s a beautiful character in the story. I think Rhaegar is the father, and so her daughter is Jon Snow’s secret half sister who Jon will fall for romantically, not knowing their relationship. Both Val and Dany fit the bill. The possibility with Dany is that Ned arranged for Ashara and her baby to be sailed to Dragonstone, where Dany was passed off as the Queen’s daughter who was still born like her last several children before. Viserys and his supporters would have waned to claim that the girl was his younger sister rather than his brother’s daughter, elsewise Dany would be the heir rather than him. This would provide extra fuel for why Ned flipped out at Robert’s plan to assassinate Dany-If Ned had already saved Dany’s life and knew she was Ashara’s daughter! Alternatively, if you do believe Mance is Arthur Dayne , as I do, then it makes sense he would be protecting his sisters daughter Val. And her stunning looks and regal bearing that cause everyone to call her a princess is because she is both a Dayne and a Targaryen and a prince’s son. But it’s one or the other! Dany’s is described to have eyes like Ashara, as you mention. Val’s curves and bust are described with the same adjectives by Marin as Ashara. It has to be one of the two of them. -Jeff H’ghar, A Theory of Ice & Fire on quora and TH-cam
@ Taking a quick look at the wiki, the descriptions don’t match: -Val is described as having a “full bosom” whole Alysanne was “small of breast.” -Val is “beautiful” whereas Alysanne was “pretty” but “seldom described as beautiful.” -Val is complimented for her curvy hips “good for birthing children” while Alyssane is “slim of waist and slight of frame.” The main similarities I see are high cheekbones-which most of the Targaryens are described as having. Even the hair and eyes which you point to are a little different: Alysanne has honey hair and blue eyes. Val has dark honey hair and eyes that appear pale grey sometimes and blue at others. The specific reason for linking Val to Ashara is that both are described as being almost unearthly beautiful. -“Val did not need to smile. She would have turned men’s heads in any court in the wide world.” -“Compared to Ashara Dayne, [Elia Martell] was a kitchen drab.” They are both described multiple times as being tall and gorgeous and having the kind of beauty that turns every man’s head, which is quite different than being pretty and petite like Alyssane is described.
@@jclaburn Of course she doesn't look exactly the same, there are 200 years between them, but the honey hair seemed rare to me, I don't remember anyone else with it. Also Val looks too beautiful, and is different from other wildlings, so it is logical to assume that she has a special ancestor, Bloodraven is the most obvious and logical option. In any case, it most likely does not matter and will not affect the plot.
No! I think Ashara might be the mother of Val the “Wildling Princess”-bc Val clearly has some secret background; she’s not a regular wildling. I think Ashara might have gotten pregnant by Rhaegar Targaryen trying to have a third child with her as the secret surrogate (she was Elia’s handmaiden), but she fell for Ned at the tournament and the world blew up not long afterward. Ned took some pregnant woman north-most likely Ashara-and his rescuing her and her baby would explain the Dayne’s naming Ned Dayne after him. Then we don’t know what happened, but Val is the only mysterious female character beautiful enough to be Ashara’s daughter other than Dany. Meera isn’t pretty enough to be Ashara’s daighter. She doesn’t act at all like a Dayne. Meera acts exactly like a Reed. Dayne’s are not like the other Dornish. They are ancient kings who look more like Valeryans than First Men or Rhoynish. And they are knights like Lancelot and the other knights of the round table. This is completely unlike other Dornish. They Daynes are modeled on the men from Numenor; on Aragorn and his family. They were originally going to live on a Star Shaped island south of Westeros that looked like Numenor but George moved them to Starfall on the mainland to be less on the nose. -Jeff H’ghar, A Theory of Ice & Fire on quora and TH-cam
[ Brandon and jojen are both songs of Ice and fire because bran goes to the Whent's that then go to the lothton's that then go to the bastard child of Alice rivers and Aemond Targaryen and jojen has the ice side that is more of a child of a forest link through the weirwoods and all that and then great empire of it on with Dayne if this theory is true ]
All things aside one would have to "hide" a noble lady having a child out of wedlock for obvious reasons, having children out of wedlock is already cringe af and disgusting despite what 2024 says but in that enviornment it is an absolute scandal
the very simple and cute explanation to your concerns raised around the 21:00 mark is simply that House Dayne is too great a House for a marriage with House Reed, and that someone in House Dayne disapproved of Howland, and so they eloped
Disapproved enough to fake her own death and never see anyone outside of the neck to me is a bit of a stretch. Also, what was house dayne going to do if she plainly left with Howland start a war. Ned has got Howland's back which mean's roberts. I don't really see how that adds up personally.
Meera also tells Bran the story of Harenhal, and it's centered around their father. Three main points are made in that story: Lyanna saving him, the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and Howland paid attention to almost everything Ashara did at the tourney. The few times Howland is brought up in the story by non-Northerners, it's that Howland is a freak. On the flip side, Ashara is idolized.
Remember, people are bigoted against the Crannaigmen.
I don't think at all that Arthur Dayne has to be alive for this theory. We don't know near enough of the specifics of the Tower of Joy to make that call. Even *without* this theory, we have the evidence of the Dayne's liking Ned enough to name the heir after him. And that's with the assumption of Arthur Dayne being dead. And we have multiple examples in lore of couples being married despite one being involved in the death of the others family. Ashara being Howland's wife and Arthur Dayne being dead are not mutually exclusive theories.
EDIT
I think there is so little known about the Tower of Joy and Howland/Ned returning Dawn to Starfall that we can't definitively rule in either way.
Didn't Howland stay in Ned's tent at Harrenhal? That should be on the pros list if she came to Ned's tent at Harrenhal people would assume she was there for Ned not Howland. Also the main proponent of this theory I've heard doesn't believe Arthur is alive but that he suicided to protect Jon. You should watch In Deep Geek's video on the topic. Not sure I believe it, but it is more plausible than a lot of other theories for the series that are popular.
Yeah that definitely could be a solid point I don’t remember if he specifically was in his tent! Also that is an interesting theory on Arthur why did he do that in the theory
@@TheGreaseGoblins It's been a while since i saw the video so I don't remember all the details. I'm trying to find it right now to rewatch. When I do I'll post the exact name of the video so you can find it if you'd like.
Howland was being harassed on the grounds before he was saved by Leanna. I'd imagined they'd have had Howland in their company when going feasting, dancing and jousting. The retellings and memories of everyone that isn't a Reed don't seem to include Howland at Harrenhal nor Starfall. It may just be because he's an unattractive, short, ill-kept man from a reclusive house no one recognized him, and assumed he was a servant. So if Ashara looked to Howland, for whatever reason, Barristan might have just assumed it was one of the Starks he was standing next to.
Going an inch further: if the Starks were putting Howland up, and taking him to fraternize with the lords great and small they might have given him more respectable clothes to wear. Clothes that had Stark regalia on it, and he may have been mistaken for a cousin, or younger sibling by others. Or maybe Howland intentionally dressed as Ned at some point so that he could slip away and tilt as the Knight of the Laughing Tree while maintaining his anonymity.
I have flat given up on staking out a stance on parentage theories because there is nowhere near enough detail on the events in the past that matter. But there's definitely plausible avenues to spin Ashara and Howland.
@@durianthesleepy Yeah. Sadly the In Deep Geek video I remember (was it really six years ago) seems to be gone along with the rest of his series on Robert's Rebellion. I'm not sure why. He does mention some of the stuff related to the theory in his livestream discussing Ashara Dayne, and he references his "recent video" on the topic but I can't find the video itself. Also I feel old, six years ago. Sigh.
I’ve lived and I will die on this hill.
Hard fuckin same.
Meera being introduced first in winterfell is a very dornish concept of succession
I've always loved this theory, don't necessarily think it's true but I still love it. I think even if it is true though then it's more likely that Arthur Dayne is dead, the bleeding star under which Azor Ahai is born.
Anyway, I do think the most likely person to have slept with Ashara is Brandon, I just can't see it being honourable Ned Stark, and we're told Brandon wasn't shy in taking what he wanted.
I do have a reason for why Ashara may have hidden herself if H+A=M&J.
Ned is trying to pass Jon off as his own, and got very lucky that Jon grew up to have only Stark features and no Valyrian ones. Ned wouldn't have been able to guarantee at birth though that Jon would only develop Stark features. If, as Jon grew older, his hair grew a streak of silver or his eyes looked slightly purple, how would Ned explain it. Fortunately for Ned, Targaryen's aren't the only ones with silver hair and purple eyes. House Dayne has these features too. Therefore the Ashara rumour acted as a back-up in case Jon looked more Targaryen and so it would keep people in universe away from the R+L=J conclusion.
Ashara may have gone along with this as it seems that House Dayne was intertwined with Rhaegar and prophecy. We know Arthur Dayne was his oldest friend, that Rhaegar shared secrets with him and that Arthur died following Rhaegars' orders, and it is likely Lord Dayne conspired with Ned about Jon's parentage, it doesn't seem too much of a stretch to say Ashara would too. That way none of Lyanna, Arthur or Rhaegar died in vain.
So Ashara goes off in secret to the Neck with Howland, just like Ned she sacrifices her honour to protect Jon and just like her brother she sacrifices her 'life'. The reason she would go secretly rather than openly is it would have seemed a bit odd if the rumoured mother of Ned Stark's bastard suddenly married a crannogman, that could just invite unwarranted questions, maybe from the crown and maybe from schemers like Varys. It was perhaps safer to play safe and just stop any inquiries at all by having Ashara 'die'.
Now, back to the theory:
Pros:
Explains why Meera's Tourney of Harrenhall story mentions Ashara's dance partners
Explains why Jojen got grey-water fever and why his eyes turned green.
Ironic with Barristan's thoughts on Quentyn and Daenerys
Fun princess and the frog motif
Explains Meera being introduced as Howland's heir rather than Jojen.
Possible explanation for "He would have killed me but for Howland Reed"
Cons:
No evidence
No rumours in universe
The pros can be explained away
Lots of unsubstantiated theories need to be true
Lastly, one small moment that stood out to me is the description of Ashara's eyes. Barristan and Catelyn (who must have heard it from someone) describe Ashara's eyes as haunting, whilst Meera describes Ashara's eyes as 'laughing'.
Now I get that there could be thematic reasons for this, Barristan and Catelyn are haunted by the ghost of Ashara, and Howland when telling the story of the knight of the laughing tree might have tried to show more laughing imagery, etc, before all the smiles died.
However, I choose to ignore this and instead view it as Howland 'knew' or saw something with Ashara that others did not. Everyone else saw Ashara as some unobtainable, mysterious beauty, whilst Howland saw her as a young girl having fun. Her eyes do not haunt him, why should they, instead they are full of laughter.
In any case, it's clear that something weird went on between Ned, Howland and the Daynes. The story we're told makes no sense. Ned Stark apparently killed Arthur and caused Ashara to kill herself and then Lord Dayne still allowed Ned to stay at Starfall, father a bastard on a Dayne wetnurse and then Lord Dayne named his heir after Ned. That's plainly ridiculous and not what would have occurred.
If the true situation had just been Arthur had died due to the inflexible honour of both men, but both men had acted nobly and Ned had returned Dawn to Starfall, I can see the Daynes holding no ill will to Ned. But if Ned had influenced Ashara to jump from the tower then surely Lord Dayne would hold some ill will towards Ned.
Ned and Howland must have gone to Starfall with baby Jon, possibly with Wylla or maybe they met her there. Either way, she wetnursed Jon whilst Ned, Howland and Lord Dayne acted. If Robert found out about Jon who knows what he would have done. To protect Jon the three men would have agreed to some lies.
I really liked this explanation about why Ashara wiuld go into hiding. I still don't believe the theory but I think that is the best idea I have seen for this theory to work! Thank you for taking the time to give your thoughts.
My mother is 5'7, thick black curly hair and olive toned skin. I'm 5'2, fine dark auburn hair, and pale skin with freckles. My dad was 6' tall, but his mom was 5'2.
My siblings are both tall, but only my sister, the 3rd child, shares our moms hair and skin color.
The thing that would be the biggest pro, is it's Howland's children telling the story of Harrenhal as if it's a family story. I don't think Arthur has to be alive at all, just the kids know way too much about this as if it's a special story to them, a story they've heard many times and told from Howland's POV, so it has to be relevant in some way, even if it's just an expo dump.
this can be a bit of a stretch and I don't know if I'm remembering correctly, but i think one possible appearance link between the kids and Ashara is that Jojen is described as being basically the same height as Meera despite being a young kid... It might be that they just stop growing earlier instead of proportionally, but it can also be hinting at the fact that he would grow to a more average height if he survived. Also saw someone claim on reddit that the fever Jojen survived as a child might've changed his eye color from purple to green but I never found any evidence of that symptom at all
The two biggest weak-points I see are John and The Blackfish.
Why didn't Ned send John with Ashara and Howland? He would be much safer there than in Winterfell and it wouldn't cause Kat troubles.
Why did tge marriage of Kat and Ned make the Blackfish so amgry that he left Riverrun and didn't soeak to his brother for years? If Ned already was married to Ashara it would explain the Blackfish reaction. But if Asjara wasn't a part there at all, why did he react as he did?
I think it would make more sense if septa lemore is ashara dayne.
I view the Arthur Dayne = Mance and Ashara Dayne = Jyanna Reed as two separate theories.
I don’t think the latter can’t be true without the former. Arthur could’ve been convinced by Howland not to kill Ned because it would be the best course of action to protect the King (Jon Snow). Having King’s Guard around the baby would mark it as a Targaryen; his survival would be more likely living with Ned. Arthur could have killed himself if he found it better kept his vows of serving the king.
I’m not saying that’s what happened; it’s just an example demonstrating the two theories can be independent of each other.
I think Arthur Dayne being alive has like a
Frey much? 😊
This is when the nerd gets the it girl.
I love this theory so much mostly because I think out of all the possible Ashara relationships it is the most GRRM sounding lmao.. very Princess and the Frog
I'm not sure Grrm would add another secret baby at this point to the stkry when we already have Jon and fAegon at this point. I also have my alternste theory that the reason Ashara went into the Stark tent was because she was sent by Elia after the Lyanna Queen but. Now what happened after and why she went into the wrong tent I'm not sure. There has to be a reason why the Daynes think so highlt of Ned despite the fact that he killed a fsmily member and the supposed affair with Ashara.
I am convinced Ashara’s daughter survived and she’s a beautiful character in the story. I think Rhaegar is the father, and so her daughter is Jon Snow’s secret half sister who Jon will fall for romantically, not knowing their relationship. Both Val and Dany fit the bill.
The possibility with Dany is that Ned arranged for Ashara and her baby to be sailed to Dragonstone, where Dany was passed off as the Queen’s daughter who was still born like her last several children before. Viserys and his supporters would have waned to claim that the girl was his younger sister rather than his brother’s daughter, elsewise Dany would be the heir rather than him. This would provide extra fuel for why Ned flipped out at Robert’s plan to assassinate Dany-If Ned had already saved Dany’s life and knew she was Ashara’s daughter!
Alternatively, if you do believe Mance is Arthur Dayne , as I do, then it makes sense he would be protecting his sisters daughter Val. And her stunning looks and regal bearing that cause everyone to call her a princess is because she is both a Dayne and a Targaryen and a prince’s son.
But it’s one or the other! Dany’s is described to have eyes like Ashara, as you mention. Val’s curves and bust are described with the same adjectives by Marin as Ashara. It has to be one of the two of them.
-Jeff H’ghar, A Theory of Ice & Fire on quora and TH-cam
Val is granddauter of bloodraven
@@SergeyS_832 Interesting idea: what’s your evidence?
@@jclaburn She looks like queen Alisanne: honey-colored hair and blue eyes
@ Taking a quick look at the wiki, the descriptions don’t match:
-Val is described as having a “full bosom” whole Alysanne was “small of breast.”
-Val is “beautiful” whereas Alysanne was “pretty” but “seldom described as beautiful.”
-Val is complimented for her curvy hips “good for birthing children” while Alyssane is “slim of waist and slight of frame.”
The main similarities I see are high cheekbones-which most of the Targaryens are described as having.
Even the hair and eyes which you point to are a little different: Alysanne has honey hair and blue eyes. Val has dark honey hair and eyes that appear pale grey sometimes and blue at others.
The specific reason for linking Val to Ashara is that both are described as being almost unearthly beautiful.
-“Val did not need to smile. She would have turned men’s heads in any court in the wide world.”
-“Compared to Ashara Dayne, [Elia Martell] was a kitchen drab.”
They are both described multiple times as being tall and gorgeous and having the kind of beauty that turns every man’s head, which is quite different than being pretty and petite like Alyssane is described.
@@jclaburn Of course she doesn't look exactly the same, there are 200 years between them, but the honey hair seemed rare to me, I don't remember anyone else with it. Also Val looks too beautiful, and is different from other wildlings, so it is logical to assume that she has a special ancestor, Bloodraven is the most obvious and logical option. In any case, it most likely does not matter and will not affect the plot.
No! I think Ashara might be the mother of Val the “Wildling Princess”-bc Val clearly has some secret background; she’s not a regular wildling.
I think Ashara might have gotten pregnant by Rhaegar Targaryen trying to have a third child with her as the secret surrogate (she was Elia’s handmaiden), but she fell for Ned at the tournament and the world blew up not long afterward. Ned took some pregnant woman north-most likely Ashara-and his rescuing her and her baby would explain the Dayne’s naming Ned Dayne after him. Then we don’t know what happened, but Val is the only mysterious female character beautiful enough to be Ashara’s daughter other than Dany.
Meera isn’t pretty enough to be Ashara’s daighter. She doesn’t act at all like a Dayne. Meera acts exactly like a Reed.
Dayne’s are not like the other Dornish. They are ancient kings who look more like Valeryans than First Men or Rhoynish. And they are knights like Lancelot and the other knights of the round table. This is completely unlike other Dornish. They Daynes are modeled on the men from Numenor; on Aragorn and his family. They were originally going to live on a Star Shaped island south of Westeros that looked like Numenor but George moved them to Starfall on the mainland to be less on the nose.
-Jeff H’ghar, A Theory of Ice & Fire on quora and TH-cam
[ Brandon and jojen are both songs of Ice and fire because bran goes to the Whent's that then go to the lothton's that then go to the bastard child of Alice rivers and Aemond Targaryen and jojen has the ice side that is more of a child of a forest link through the weirwoods and all that and then great empire of it on with Dayne if this theory is true ]
The answer is: yes
No
Weak theory
All things aside one would have to "hide" a noble lady having a child out of wedlock for obvious reasons, having children out of wedlock is already cringe af and disgusting despite what 2024 says but in that enviornment it is an absolute scandal