1:27:46 not sure whether you've mentioned it but it's specifically forbidden for nightswatchmen to sire children, which sounds like a good way to make sure no shadow babies start getting past the wall.
God i love this channel. I honestly think youve cracked the magic system of ASOIAF, which I never thought id say given how subtle the hints are. Awesome
The imagery of the weirwoods reaching for the moon makes more sense with the context of this video. Plants will grow towards the source of light they feed on. If you put a plant in your window, it will lean a bit toward that window. If you turn the plant around, it will change the direction of its growth so the new growth is toward that window still. So the weirwoods growing toward moonlight makes sense if they're feeding on moon magic. The weirdwood in the Nightfort grew towards the only moonlight that could reach it.
@@CATDHD if Jon ends up creating others then that line is basically a poetic way of foreshadowing that. “The moon has kissed you” is basically saying magic has touched you/affected you, since the moon is theorized to possibly be the source of magic, or at least symbolically represent it. “Etched your shadow upon the ice” means embodied your life force aka shadow upon ice, which is what the Others are, icy shadowbound life force. “Twenty feet tall” might just reference how Melisandre believes shadows cast at the wall would be more powerful that ones she has cast in the past, and when she cast Stannis’ shadow Davos describes it as being as tall as the cave, so we know these shadows can appear quite larger than a man. The phrase “shadow on the wall” has also been used before. During the power riddle scene. When Varys says to Tyrion “power resides where men believe it resides,” Tyrion protests that this would make power a mummer’s trick, and Varys agrees stating “A shadow on the wall, yet shadows can kill.” This is an innocuous metaphor about power in their conversation but if you take that line of dialogue and look for hints in the context of the Melisandre line, you could argue that it foreshadows that Jon’s “shadow” (aka the Other(s) cast from him) will be powerful, and probably kill people too. Jon’s shadow is etched upon the Wall, and power is a shadow on the wall.
He NEEDS to stop trying to Director or Full-Time Consultant, to get the Series Written! So they don’t just “Wing-It”, with all the spin-off series! I get why he does it, but EVERYTHING WILL BE OPEN TO THE DIRECTOR’S INTERPRETATION! And that would be Bullsh_t, Just like G.O.T Seasons 5-8!!! FINISH THE SERIES, GEORGIE, SO THEY DON’T ”BUTCHER” THE REST OF THEM! Your not getting any Younger, Georgie!!!
George doesn't care about finishing, and it's a shame because, ultimately, it will be a legacy of failure that he leaves behind. In ways it may be better that it's not finished. Think back to season 8 how much speculation and they crafting went on about how they would wrap it up in 8 episodes...the speculation and discussion was way better than what we actually got.
@@watcherofthewest8597 I don't think that it is in any way better if it isn't finished. I think people actually don't want it to be finished, because they hate resolution for their soap operas, and they don't want anything definitive about plot, so that their head canon theories can forever be held. No matter the quality an ending is needed, so that we can judge and analyze the full story for whatever it actually is, and not what we want it to be.
16:37 It also suggests a further connection of the weirwoods and the others, since MacBeth's downfall comes from his enemies armies attacking Castle Dunsinsane in the guise of trees (think also of how George uses this TWICE in Asha's POV when Deepwood Motte is taken by Stannis).
Amazing work bro. It really impresses me that despite GRRM apparently being completely indifferent about getting the series finished, fans still come up with incredible and insightful ideas about the work.
I was just finished with my shores and was about to put down my phone and get studying and you publish this behemoth of a video about your most interesting theory. God is testing my willpower with this one.
The binding to glass candles thing suddenly makes every bit of sense - The captured man who has an obsidian shard plunged into his heart, a glass candle with a constant source of fresh blood
"exceptionalism is the exception" It's quite literally why the books were streamlined into what we saw in the show. Funnily enough Steven Spielberg talked about why Hollywood became what it is with the common analogy of you either chase the money or the award. You often cannot do both. This guy speaks his opinions well but most people who want the series to be what they think disagree.
i have been watching ASOIAF content for near a decade and when i discovered Michael it was crazy how it felt as if he was in George's mind, his theories are the most spot on I've seen
Didn't realize he already has collabed with David Lightbringer til just now. For some reason he sounds a little different here than on his streams. Now I have a face.
@@PeterEhik A channel by the name of “Lucifer Means Lightbringer”, though technically he goes by “David Lightbringer” nowadays. He’s actually streamed together with “Michael Talks About Stuff.” He’s a similar sort of long form ASOIAF theorist channel with loads of good insight. Particularly with the series’ underlying mythology and symbolism. Considering you’re here watching this channel, I hugely recommend David’s too since it hits the same spot.
I think the shadows have urges that represent the donor's desires in the Jungian sense. Stannis's shadow killed Renly not because Stannis was explicitly controlling him, but because Renly had just trolled the shit out of him, stymied his "destiny", and rubbed salt in every emotional wound he has, and therefore Stannis deeply wanted to harm and punish Renly, so his shadow went out and did it.
By George (R.R. Martin), I think he's got it! Seriously though, you have given form and function to the theory that has been floating formless in my mind for years. This all makes perfect sense. Best ASOIAF theory video yet.
Read the expanded universe stuff, dunk and egg specifically is beloved but obviously fire and blood and the world book are well received too despite being harder reads if you’re into storytelling more than educational reading
I think the Others are the old gods wanting to kill themselves, but to do that, they need to destroy all the magical castles in Westeros as they were built for the express purpose of making them immortal gods. They were good at constructing a system that kept them alive, but they didn't realise that being immortal is a curse, not a blessing, so they didn't consider any easy way to kill themselves until it was too late to do it peacefully. I think that Jon might very well figure out that letting the Others win is the correct, ethical, and honorable way to deal with the threat. It might appear that he is evil from the outside, which in the end, means that Bran is forced to banish him. Not because Bran thinks he is guilty, but because the people would never accept that Jon isn't a villain.
Yes! Because their bodies are strapped in the roots of the godswoods in those old castles. Explains also the family-first feudal system in place for thousands of years if specifically your kin's blood is the best to sustain you.
Love this video and all you're stuff. Re the part with the letter, I interpreted the demons as the children of the forest, whilst the neverborn are the others
When Tormund describes the shadows and says they "cling to your heels" I am reminded of Melisandre giving birth to a shadow baby and how it holds her legs while being born.
You clearly put a huge amount of work into this, and it was worth it - this is a massive thesis, a fresh idea after all these years. It's stuff like this that makes me not mind the wait for TWOW too much. Mind you, maybe GRRM sees this and has to start all over again!
Isn’t it amazing that even with GRRM being so lackadaisical about continuing the series at all, the fans keep coming up with fresh and insightful interpretations of the work? So cool.
1:00:12 I think neverborn just refers to stillborn/miscarried children. There are a lot of instances in folklore of such children being mythologized as being stolen or abducted by fairies (in many European contexts) or demons (in Hebrew and other middle eastern ones), sometimes specifically to either become supernatural creatures themselves, or as in the myth of changelings to be replaced by one which then grows strong off the mother's milk and affection. It would also make sense in that interpretation that hed abandon the term as he developed the story and realised hey actually it makes much more dramatic and narrative sense to have those children be taken/abducted/corrupted after theyve been born so theres something you can properly show. Or even if that was part of his thinking originally since stillborn children and post-natal mortality were always extremely closely related in cultural interpretations just deciding it confuses things a bit too much to lump that entire folkloric concept with a name that far more specifically connotes a stillbirth or miscarriage and much less so a post-natally deceased child.
okay, this is kinda blowing my mind. i just have two things to say; 1. this makes so much more sense why the axed prequel was called blood moon. i did wonder why and thought it was a bit, not random but kind of a reach. but with this theory, it makes complete sense. 2. birds, snow, moon symbolism … that sounds a little bit like sansa…no? she has bird symbolism; little dove, pretty bird, caged bird, mockingbird, little finger, song bird, people think she might warg into birds into the future. sweet robin, house arryn, living in a place called the eeyrie where she’s learning how to “fly the nest” and make it on her own, the winged knights tourney etc etc. snow, it’s a big motif/reminder for her because being in the south, a warm temperate place, the snow is a memory that’s unique to her home, her heritage and identity. she recalls snowball fights with arya and bran (again, reminder of home & her pack), her scene in eeyrie godswood (one of her religions, connection to her father, her family, her home. the godswood was a place of solace for her in KL), she builds winterfell out of snow and it’s very likely that she is the snow maiden who will slay the giant. the moon imagery is more obscure (i sound like charlie kelly doing his pepe silvia thing rn i know) but it reminds me what her father said to arya, “you might be as different as the sun and the moon…” i think people automatically think, well, arya is the artemis dark sister secret double life sister who changes her faces like phases of the moon but i don’t think that’s 100% correct. she is bold and bright, daring and fiery, she has both sides and so does sansa. sansa is “brighter” in the sense that she is prettier, her features more distinct so she cannot hide but she is not bold, she’s quiet and observant. arya can get along with everyone, sansa is charming but it’s superficial, it’s courtesy, it’s manners etc. she’s a mirror a lot of the time, reflecting back whatever projections people desire of her, like how the moon reflects light. also, her moon-blood is a pivotal plot point in her story and a moment in her life. brienne, who swore to protect her and is looking for her, and if anything like the show, she will become her sworn protector/sword, wore blue moon armour in renly’s rainbow guard, and her sigil, is a moon and sun. the arryn’s, who she flees to for protection, their sigil is a falcon and the moon. when she is fleeing, the small-folk spread rumours that she killed joffrey and transformed into a half-wolf, half-bat like creature (nocturnal animals who live under the moon, wolves howl at them etc). she, a hybrid winged creature flees “to the moon” (the arryn’s for safety. it’s like she is collecting herself moon protectors/guards, she’s finding strength in it, she’s finding power in the moon. (which would also mean, if she does turn nights queen and create shadow babies using moon magic, she’s turning the traumatic event of her moon-blood, the sign that she is fertile, ready to be married and forcibly impregnated, into a strength for her and her power also). melisandre and that character from elden ring are red heads, but guess who else is? sansa. and she already has the icy symbolism by being a stark, no special commission figurine needed. she’s pale, with red hair, like the weirwoods, but instead of dark red eyes like mel, she has deep blue eyes… meaning, if you saw her from a distance, say like how the 13th lord commander saw the nights queen from atop the wall, how easy would it be to tell if she was wighted/an other or would you just assume, and be tricked into thinking that it’s just her blue eyes, like always? she was brusquely cut off from any opportunity to begin to warg lady but that doesn’t mean that she was completely castrated from any magical ability. the stark blood clearly has something going on, and, house whent on her maternal grandmother’s side also tbf. maybe she was cut off from that element of magic for a reason, because she was meant to harness some other power instead? like how bran was always meant to fall from the tower, in order to curtail his ambitions to go down south & become a knight because he had a higher calling. (her and bran are the only stark’s described as “winged wolves”). but even still, lady remains with her, she dreams of her like she was there, running alongside her like her body is trying to wolf-dream but she just can’t. she can sense if lady would like somewhere, wishes that she there with her multiple times etc, that part of her is still present within her. sansa is my fave character so ofc i watched this and my biased brain put two and two together and ended up with this line of thinking but i do think grrm’s penchant for this red head ice queen archetype is very interesting. i loved the qitn ending for sansa in the show, and ofc, i do dearly want to see her happy and in control of her own life but … something about evil dark ice sorceress sansa, who was radicalised or possessed to join the other side, or maybe something woke up within her like a sleeper cell is still so cool to me and i wouldn’t mind if that happened one bit. i’d fully welcome a nights queen villain arc icl.
@@samsara2521i was literally watching this video like…hang on, this sounds like someone we know? 😭 i know her storyline could potentially be more grounded and political rather than the high fantasy magical aspects of her siblings’ stories but i do think that, at least not until the very end of the series, that nothing and no one will be completely unmagical, it will affect everything. and if grrm wanted to, if he decided to, she IS right there, so he has options.
This is quite an interesting angle, it has quite a bit of merit to it, I will need to think this over and see how much of this I incorporate into my head canon if Winds never comes out lol
The fact that Kit Harington allegedly had an affair with Carice van Houten while they were filming GoT S5 onwards makes Jon and Mel potentially shacking up in TWOW REALLY funny
This is a great video. I can't wait for the John snow nights king video. I am leaning more and more that way but I think his ending will be different to the show. I think it was foreshadowed in the first book while he is in the crypts, covered in flour scaring arya. She punches him in the cut and I think this is how he will die. It's too much like the ending of the night king in the show. Stabbed exactly in the same place. Puts another meaning to stick em with the pointy end
Yep. I agree but she will do it out of mercy and as part of her role as a faceless men(they are erradicating all the "undead" cause all men must die, that's why they finished the Valyrian empire and also why Jaqen was heading to the Wall in the beggining but that's another personal theory that I have). Anyway, the line that clearly foreshadows the Jon/NK - Arya connection is : "Needle was Winterfell, its summer snows and all the good memories" but specially she says at the very end of the phrase: "Needle was Jon Snow's smile". Also, the very last thing that Jon told her after saying goodbye was something along the lines of "the more you hide, the longer you'll suffer, and you'll end up sewing through the Winter until they find your body in the spring with a needle stuck between your fingers" IMO Arya being the one stabbing Jon Snow (specially once he's turned into the NK) has always been heavily hinted. Also IMO, Jon Snow will grow tired of being an undead, that's why GRRM has always made us clear that the state in which they remain makes them suffer, but also because Jon will probably know that an innocent child was burned to bring him back. That's the only way the line of "Needle was Jon's smile" makes sense.
At 17:41 could the hidden door made of old grey wood, splintery and plain be a reference to the weirwood door in the night fort? Like, you have to enter it to find the source of the others which are inside the wall?
Love the newest Michael talks about stuff video!! Great Christmas Present! One quibble though, I thought George was only contracted for the prehistory of Elden ring and specifically things long long before marika and her order. The split self is a common Elden ring trope happening to characters other than marika. Other than this quibble awesome video
1:18:35 I don’t know if you’ve come across the theory that the oily black stone is actually shade of the evening trees that have been petrified. It would further highlight the symmetry between these elements. Another great video!
I'm sure other people have probably talked it to death, but I think it still would've been worth it to mention GRRM's favorite movie, "Forbidden Planet." It's particularly salient to the question of how much conscious agency the person who casts the shadow has. I think it's meant to be very clear that Stannis, like Dr. Morbius in "Forbidden Planet," may have had a little murder in his heart in his dark moments, but he definitely wouldn't have been capable of doing what his shadow did to Renly in his waking hours. It took magic/alien technology capable of realizing his unconscious desires.
This is a really cool point actually. Obviously if it’s his favorite movie it would influence, even if just subconsciously. And I agree that the shadow did what Stannis may have wished for, on some level, but could not or would not do with his own hands. Especially given how far he does eventually take his own actions in service to his ambitions.
I think INC did a video about how Stannis's shadows actually might still be around, too. I think there was one line in the books that super heavily hints that they are
I’m 100% onboard with this theory, except for the second secret moon part. And I’m not even really opposed to that part, it just feels like the least well-supported part of the theory. It seems plausible, but still too speculative for me to be fully convinced, if that makes sense. But, the rest of the theory works with or without that specific part anyway.
Same, but after watching Michael's live stream yesterday together with David Lightbringer... it actually maybe makes more sense that a huge chunk of the darkened second moon is still out there than that it isn't.
Another terrific video, Michael! I’ve been arguing the Others are second lives / shadows of the Starks for a few years, so I couldn’t agree more!!! ( I have a number of Q&As about this on my quora space A Theory of Ice & Fire including ‘What’s the deep, dark secret that lies at the heart of ASOIAF?’ and ‘What is the Stark horror theory for ASOIAF?’ and ‘What do the Others really want?) The technical difference in the theories, I suppose, is whether an Other is the shadow of a greenseer underneath a weirwood or a Stark King of Winter lying in the crypts of Winterfell. I’ve gone back and forth about this myself. My latest versions is probably that the greenseer is stuck like the child of a forest in a raven watching through the eyes of the Other, but it’s the shade / consciousness of the the dead Stark who is control of the Other. That is how my theories are a little different than your version. I think maybe originally greenseers could control the shadows and they weren’t so icy, but there was a change that involved taking the seed of the Starks in exchange for making them Kings of Winter, and the shadows became icy and dead Starks gained control over them instead of the children of the forest in the roots of the trees. It’s a twist you also propose that I have never considered before that the rivalry / conflict between Bran and Jon from the outline might come back / still be on. I base my theories on the text of the five novels we have, and I haven’t seen any evidence or foreshadowing of a Bran - Jon conflict there. That would be my caution. However, it’s definitely something to think about. I do agree wholeheartedly that there is a “Stark Horror Story” past and giant twists-buffet than anything so far-lie ahead. It makes sense. However, I have also argued there is a lot of in text support for a future Sansa-Jon relationship that replaces the original Arya-Jon relationship and which is a retelling of Beauty and the Beast. I am quite convinced of this one. I am trying to figure out how a Bran - Jon conflict goes if Sansa is also on Jon’s side and either married to him for political reasons or in love with him after Jon rescues Sansa dramatically from Littlefinger (something I have predicted). -A Theory of Ice & Fiee
This makes the fact that Euron has tied a pregnant woman to his ship to let her die in battle in a bigger megaritual even more interesting, it seems that a neverborn will be needed in that ritual too
Excellent Video on this complexe subject. I think there is a very important point to consider to bring it all together in the spirit of GRRM. 1. The spirit of GRRM is fervently antireligious, antimilitaristic and antimagic. He also doesnt by in black and white morality Good vs Evil but sees the "villains" as the heroes of the other side. 2. The whole ASOIAF is constructed highly dualistic: Ice and Fire, Starks and Targeryans, Children and Shadowmagic from Ashai, 2 moons one firy that has disapeared and one icy that is still there. Melisandre and the icey Nightqueen that exists only in legend. 3. George has constructed the story he tells around the ressurgence of ICE after a long period of dominance of FIRE with Ashai, Valyria and the Targeryans in Westeros. 4. The Fireside is represented through the creation of dragons controlled by fewer and fewer people to be used as a weapon to dominate others. It seems probable that the destruction of the Firemoon brought forth the dragons by at the same time throwing the East and Ashai in Darkness (probably the lightdrinking stone are the remenants of this moon made to crash to earth in a firy metorite and wich brought abaout the long night by simply throwing up dust into the atmosphere like happend with the dinosaures on earth). So George discribes the corruption of the natural fire through human sacrifice to create as shadowmagic: sacrify lifeforce to create Shadowghosts (as does Melisandre by using stanisses lifeforce to create an enslaved Stannis-Shadow that does her bidding), Bring down the Firemoon to create Dragons as unstoppable killing machines and to control them somehow, use glasscandles to send dreams and visions to manipulate others. The POV-Charactere that represents this form of shadow/fire-magic is Dany and Melisandre. 5. The Iceside seems to have been created by the children of the forest in their war against the first men during the pact. Before that the children use earth and water "magic" as their skills through the weirwoods (that where probalble just trees back then with green leafs and "drinking" water). I think you are absolutely right about the fact that the children used human (the first men) sacrifice to turn the weirwoods into a weapon and bring forth ice soldiers in form of the Others (as an opposite to the firesoldiers in form of the dragons). Crasters sons and the Starks have both blood of the first men to be able to keep the Others undead and even increasing their numbers. The Starks show us a second way the children used to weaponize nature. Their has been a mixing of the children with the firstmen that created bloodlines that where able to warg and to greensee like the cranogmen. Parallel the Valyrians mixed apparently their bloodlines with dragons to be able to controle these unstoppable killingmachines created with Shadowmagic (corrupted Firemagic if you will). Thats why I think the Others are the "spirits" of the weirwoods (watermagic corrupted to Icemagic) and fueld by bloodsacrifices from blood of firstmen (Wildlings, Starks crasters sons etc.). Sybolically George breaks the natural cycle of birth living, decaying and death and rebirth of the water cycle by freezing it and replacing the water with sacrifical blood and producing undead, neverborn Unlife in form of the Others. That makes the Others a parallel to the Ents in Tolkins world like Treesoldiers that defend nature. The Others are so not the Bads but the Nature Spirits (like the Sighe) that come to end the corruption of nature through the wars of men. 6. I think Bran the Builder probable never existed and is just a mythological figure like Garth the Green that represents the mixing of the bloodlines with the children to give special abilities to their decendents. And the POV-Bran is gonna be "Bran the Destroyer" by ending the corruption of the natural water-cycle through blood sacrifice and ending at the same time any supernatural abilities and beeings in Westeros. 7. On the Fireside the end is gonna be similar but noit identical. Dany (dragonblood) and Melisandre (shadowmagic) are going to be defeated or sacrifice themselves in the end to bring their corruption of the natural fire to an end as well. So in the end the dragons (firesoldiers) and the Others (Icesoldiers) are going to disapear. This end of magic in a fantasy world is also the same in Tolkins LOTR where magic is leaving Middleearth in form of the Elves. Please tell me what you think?
I like what you're saying, but I do have a question: If George wants the story to end with magic finally leaving the world of Planetos, then why is the possibility that the maesters are trying to achieve the same thing treated with a negative light?
@@yazanmowed It isn't all together. His self insert character Sam is studying to become a maester. Marwyn is an intreging character who uses magic to get power as does Quyburn. The Maesters are treated as a morally diverse group that fight amongst themselves over power and influence as well. The same is true for the religious organizations like the Septons and even the priesters of Rhellor. Its again no Heroes and villains but complexe characters with complexe motivations just like real humans. 🙂
Anything connecting the Rhoynish to the icy moon? Desert coded River people worshipping an ice moon and getting water magic as a result makes a bit of sense
35:40 The others will most likely generate a stronger cold storm?? than mel’s shadow baby because the others are cast with much more powerful magic. “She was stronger at the wall, stronger even than in Asshai… Such shadows i bring forth from here will be terrible, no creature of the dark will stand before them”
I can't help but feel him playing with Plato's Cave allegory with this whole story. Men, bound, having nothing to do but watch the cave wall. Their existence wrapped up in the casting of shadows.
I really like this theory and I am so glad that you made this all encompassing video to talk about your ideas so far. However, a lot of Jon's story sets him up to be opposed to tradition in the North. He consistently is able to humanize the wildlings and work with them rather than against them, even bringing them south of the wall. It feels like he is set up to be a force for change rather than continuation. This might be why his death and resurrection is so important, and why it failed in the show. Jon will go from a force for change and progress to a regressive force retaking traditional northern/Stark magical power after he dies because revived people are obsessed with their last action (Beric and Catelyn as you pointed out). The issue with his resurrection in the show is that they didn't actually change him into a darker figure or pull a 180 on his character arc like he has been set up to do in the books. You can remove Jon's death/revive from the show and nothing changes, but this might be the key to his future in the books. This would mirror Dany's arc as someone who starts out as a liberator who eventually becomes a fire-and-blood Targaryen conqueror. Jon would start as a peacemaker who becomes a magical warmonger. Tbh part of me hopes this doesn't happen just because I like Jon a lot, but I can really see all of the evidence pointing towards a darker turn.
Hi, I saw in a different video you mention Elden Ring, I am firmly a believer that the "shadows" are jungian shadows. Check Out the Centered Tarnished, I think it might open up a new lens.
It should be mentioned that “shadows” are a metaphor for spirits / souls / consciousness. From a sci-fi angle, shadow binding and warging are literally just binding one’s consciousness into the physical body of another. Melisandre’s shadow baby is similar, but one’s consciousness remains in its etherial / shadow form.
I have had now a great premonition, a vision of things to come: The Winds Of Winter will never get to be published, its author will die, and his pride will prevent another to complete the work. This video is the completion of A Song Of Ice And Fire. I now know, I now may bid farewell.
Great video! I think you got some things wrong, but again without TWOW who knows, maybe you are spot on. Thank you for the time you put into making this video.
Do you think there's a deeper meaning behind why the wildlings call themselves free folk? Is it just that they don't have lords and such? Or is it because they're not a part of the mysterious pact between the Starks and the others? And that's why they're not on the safe side of the wall.
Excellent as always Michael, though I will point that there were THREE moons in elden ring. The black moon of the Nox. That moon has been speculated to be the dark moon, BUT you can actually pick up fragments of that broken black moon. It isssss worth noting that those fragments are called Memory Stones and those stones allow you to memorize more spells at a time.
Great theory. I 100% agree that the Others are shadows. It explains one of the names for Azor Ahai, Eldric Shadowcaser. One thing I think your theory doesn’t currently account for is the corruption of the weirwoods. I strongly believe that the trees used to be green. Weirwoods = Garth trees. Garth the green planted green weirwood trees. Then the trees were corrupted, which is why the look terrifying and like they’re bleeding all the time. This is also hinted at with the Gray King legend about the him taunting the Storm God and setting a tree ablaze. The Gray King hated weirwoods and was killing them left and right: Naga’s bones, Ygg the demon tree. I totally recommend Gray Area’s videos on the similarities between Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn. Particularly the information about the forging of the blade Sorrow. I would give more details but I know I’d mess it up. Watch them though, GRRM loves that book series.
The corruption would be the literal strapping of a man's body to the weirwood roots for immortality, forcing it to pump blood and sustenance to the body. Michael theorized elsewhere that those who now cast the Others did that strapping with glass candles, combining both fire magic and ice magic. I think the original corruptors could be the greenseer kings (First Men founders of the great Houses) united by a GEoTD conqueror.
Michael talked about this elsewhere, how the corruption that turned the trees white might have been Azor Ahai or whoever forcing himself into the tree/roots with a glass candle impalement to gain immortality and they are still alive somewhat, thus casting the Others. I very much agree with that!
@@timmyruzicka7860what if the Children’s blood sacrifices (during the war with the first men, right?) was what corrupted the weirwoods. I do think they were once green when they were more associated a with Garth the Green and the children practiced more natural magic surrounding them, alongside Garth. I’ve read a couple people who suggest that Garth the Green was a mythical figure and never existed. I disagree, I think Garth was real and a powerful magical being in the world. Maybe he even planted the green weirwoods.
I think it would make more sense if they were just weapons of the children of the forest, because it also means that there isn’t a whole new avenue of unanswered questions that need to be exposed and then answered in supposedly two books. The explanation of them being from the children Would be much more elegant and something that could be exposed within the timeframe of the books. Anything more would just leave more questions unanswered and would seem a little dumb for the main foe of the book. I also think it ties in nicely with the theme south of the wall, because the entire premise is that all of these rivalries that have been going on for decades or centuries are always bubbling underneath the surface just waiting for their chance to be exploited, between house and Cultures and individuals. So it also makes sense that the biggest one of all would be the children’s revenge on human beings and the others as their weapon. It fits thematically perfectly.
Michael making an hour and a half video is a christmas miracle
and treat.
1:27:46 not sure whether you've mentioned it but it's specifically forbidden for nightswatchmen to sire children, which sounds like a good way to make sure no shadow babies start getting past the wall.
oi same thought at roughy the same moment!
@@Jacob-W-5570 Great minds think alike lmao.
God i love this channel. I honestly think youve cracked the magic system of ASOIAF, which I never thought id say given how subtle the hints are. Awesome
The imagery of the weirwoods reaching for the moon makes more sense with the context of this video. Plants will grow towards the source of light they feed on. If you put a plant in your window, it will lean a bit toward that window. If you turn the plant around, it will change the direction of its growth so the new growth is toward that window still. So the weirwoods growing toward moonlight makes sense if they're feeding on moon magic. The weirdwood in the Nightfort grew towards the only moonlight that could reach it.
The trees act like capacitors for the moons energy, dissipating it out into the world during the day.
it doesn't make any sense, it's magic fam. It's a cool concept though.
I love how plants do this, and that imagery is deeply moving to me.
“The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall”
This line is CRAZZZY
why? i don't get it
@@CATDHD if Jon ends up creating others then that line is basically a poetic way of foreshadowing that. “The moon has kissed you” is basically saying magic has touched you/affected you, since the moon is theorized to possibly be the source of magic, or at least symbolically represent it. “Etched your shadow upon the ice” means embodied your life force aka shadow upon ice, which is what the Others are, icy shadowbound life force. “Twenty feet tall” might just reference how Melisandre believes shadows cast at the wall would be more powerful that ones she has cast in the past, and when she cast Stannis’ shadow Davos describes it as being as tall as the cave, so we know these shadows can appear quite larger than a man.
The phrase “shadow on the wall” has also been used before. During the power riddle scene. When Varys says to Tyrion “power resides where men believe it resides,” Tyrion protests that this would make power a mummer’s trick, and Varys agrees stating “A shadow on the wall, yet shadows can kill.” This is an innocuous metaphor about power in their conversation but if you take that line of dialogue and look for hints in the context of the Melisandre line, you could argue that it foreshadows that Jon’s “shadow” (aka the Other(s) cast from him) will be powerful, and probably kill people too. Jon’s shadow is etched upon the Wall, and power is a shadow on the wall.
George. Please just finish the series, its too epic to not conclude.
He NEEDS to stop trying to Director or Full-Time Consultant, to get the Series Written! So they don’t just “Wing-It”, with all the spin-off series! I get why he does it, but EVERYTHING WILL BE OPEN TO THE DIRECTOR’S INTERPRETATION! And that would be Bullsh_t, Just like G.O.T Seasons 5-8!!! FINISH THE SERIES, GEORGIE, SO THEY DON’T ”BUTCHER” THE REST OF THEM! Your not getting any Younger, Georgie!!!
He's too busy being cool in Hollywood to care.
George doesn't care about finishing, and it's a shame because, ultimately, it will be a legacy of failure that he leaves behind.
In ways it may be better that it's not finished. Think back to season 8 how much speculation and they crafting went on about how they would wrap it up in 8 episodes...the speculation and discussion was way better than what we actually got.
@@watcherofthewest8597 I don't think that it is in any way better if it isn't finished. I think people actually don't want it to be finished, because they hate resolution for their soap operas, and they don't want anything definitive about plot, so that their head canon theories can forever be held. No matter the quality an ending is needed, so that we can judge and analyze the full story for whatever it actually is, and not what we want it to be.
*Laughs into another spinoff*
16:37 It also suggests a further connection of the weirwoods and the others, since MacBeth's downfall comes from his enemies armies attacking Castle Dunsinsane in the guise of trees (think also of how George uses this TWICE in Asha's POV when Deepwood Motte is taken by Stannis).
Just starting a 12 hr shift, this helps 👍
Been there. This will for sure help.
Slay that dragon.
Hope you had a good shift
Amazing work bro. It really impresses me that despite GRRM apparently being completely indifferent about getting the series finished, fans still come up with incredible and insightful ideas about the work.
I was just finished with my shores and was about to put down my phone and get studying and you publish this behemoth of a video about your most interesting theory. God is testing my willpower with this one.
The binding to glass candles thing suddenly makes every bit of sense - The captured man who has an obsidian shard plunged into his heart, a glass candle with a constant source of fresh blood
I work for the post office and went in to work today (on a Sunday), this video was a nice treat to listen to
wow.. you bring it together so well at 1:20:20.. leading the army down from the north to take Winterfell.
you're amazing. I am convinced. well done!
How do you only have 17K subs? Your shit is top notch my dude.
"exceptionalism is the exception" It's quite literally why the books were streamlined into what we saw in the show. Funnily enough Steven Spielberg talked about why Hollywood became what it is with the common analogy of you either chase the money or the award. You often cannot do both.
This guy speaks his opinions well but most people who want the series to be what they think disagree.
i have been watching ASOIAF content for near a decade and when i discovered Michael it was crazy how it felt as if he was in George's mind, his theories are the most spot on I've seen
Hopefully he can collab with Alt Shift X or Quinn.
Didn't realize he already has collabed with David Lightbringer til just now. For some reason he sounds a little different here than on his streams. Now I have a face.
@thehermitman822 were you a faceless man before??
I think you and LML have pretty much provided the best analysis and explanation of the others with the content that GRRM has provided.
Who’s LML?
@@PeterEhik A channel by the name of “Lucifer Means Lightbringer”, though technically he goes by “David Lightbringer” nowadays.
He’s actually streamed together with “Michael Talks About Stuff.” He’s a similar sort of long form ASOIAF theorist channel with loads of good insight. Particularly with the series’ underlying mythology and symbolism.
Considering you’re here watching this channel, I hugely recommend David’s too since it hits the same spot.
@ yeah I know David’s channel, know him by his current name. Great channel
Ah man, this is such a satisfying theory. Excellent work
You have such a great understanding of ASOIAF, and I love how you think about all this. Never change my dude!
Great video Michael! Been watching your channel since nearly the beginning, you’re doing great keep it up
I think the shadows have urges that represent the donor's desires in the Jungian sense. Stannis's shadow killed Renly not because Stannis was explicitly controlling him, but because Renly had just trolled the shit out of him, stymied his "destiny", and rubbed salt in every emotional wound he has, and therefore Stannis deeply wanted to harm and punish Renly, so his shadow went out and did it.
Patchface's "the shadows come to dance, my lord" comes to mind
That sounds like something more out of Babylon 5, lol
@@mrsamaritan6881Babylon 5 is Lord of the Rings in space.
By George (R.R. Martin), I think he's got it! Seriously though, you have given form and function to the theory that has been floating formless in my mind for years. This all makes perfect sense. Best ASOIAF theory video yet.
Boy George?
Bravo, love this theory and believe you’re spot on after you pieced it together. Looking forward to your next video
Ol' nan has been spitting facts since her first page
I never thought about the possibility that Mirri Maz Duur might have planned her own death to revive the dragons. A very interesting idea.
I still think it was a spellcast misfire on her part.
Yeah, she pretty clearly just wanted revenge.
She wasn't counting on the Targaryen factor.
Finished the books literally an hour today, this is going to be interesting.
don't rush! go start this series from the beginning and appreciate it all :)
Read the expanded universe stuff, dunk and egg specifically is beloved but obviously fire and blood and the world book are well received too despite being harder reads if you’re into storytelling more than educational reading
Great stuff Michael!!! Thank you and Happy Holidays!
At first I was like, good God man, 2 hours...
And then I listened to everything in one session. 😂 Great work 🤌🍻
Your channel needs way more love.. only reason I’m commenting.. love your videos
Absolute Cinema. Doing george’s work here and making everyone hype for these non-existent books ahahahah you easily have the best asoiaf content on yt
What a fantastic analysis despite your description of Tormon as a reliable witness 😂
Just started going on a long walk,this is great.
My favorite video maker is back, you’re true one who cracked the GRRM code my friend
1:11:42 ranni had a mentor named renna that was an ice sorceress. Her influence on ranni is suggested to be very significant.
I think the Others are the old gods wanting to kill themselves, but to do that, they need to destroy all the magical castles in Westeros as they were built for the express purpose of making them immortal gods. They were good at constructing a system that kept them alive, but they didn't realise that being immortal is a curse, not a blessing, so they didn't consider any easy way to kill themselves until it was too late to do it peacefully.
I think that Jon might very well figure out that letting the Others win is the correct, ethical, and honorable way to deal with the threat. It might appear that he is evil from the outside, which in the end, means that Bran is forced to banish him. Not because Bran thinks he is guilty, but because the people would never accept that Jon isn't a villain.
You get it 👏👏👏
Yes! Because their bodies are strapped in the roots of the godswoods in those old castles. Explains also the family-first feudal system in place for thousands of years if specifically your kin's blood is the best to sustain you.
Wow this video came sooner than I fought and it is nearly two hours! 😍
I love this. Thank you very much.
Love this video and all you're stuff. Re the part with the letter, I interpreted the demons as the children of the forest, whilst the neverborn are the others
Fire casts shadows and Ice reflects light
love that
I am rubber and you are glue. Roses are red. I love you.
@@hulkingmass kiss me on my lips brother
This along with the new collab with LML for the Moon deepdive is going to see my evening through nicely 🥳
Excellent work, I'm excited for the next videos in the series
When Tormund describes the shadows and says they "cling to your heels" I am reminded of Melisandre giving birth to a shadow baby and how it holds her legs while being born.
Well done, Michael. Fabulous theory video!!
You clearly put a huge amount of work into this, and it was worth it - this is a massive thesis, a fresh idea after all these years. It's stuff like this that makes me not mind the wait for TWOW too much. Mind you, maybe GRRM sees this and has to start all over again!
Isn’t it amazing that even with GRRM being so lackadaisical about continuing the series at all, the fans keep coming up with fresh and insightful interpretations of the work? So cool.
Best theory I’ve heard, it all seems so obvious when you lay it out like this, perfect
Thank you Michael for this piece of content!!!
Exciting stuff. If Micheal thinks this will take 1:40 of production I’m sure it’s gonna be fire.
This connected a lot of dots for me. It’s so cool. Now only if the DAMN BOOKS WOULD BE FINISHED GAWD DAAMNIT
Great stuff. Love the deep dive and solid explanations.
1:00:12 I think neverborn just refers to stillborn/miscarried children. There are a lot of instances in folklore of such children being mythologized as being stolen or abducted by fairies (in many European contexts) or demons (in Hebrew and other middle eastern ones), sometimes specifically to either become supernatural creatures themselves, or as in the myth of changelings to be replaced by one which then grows strong off the mother's milk and affection. It would also make sense in that interpretation that hed abandon the term as he developed the story and realised hey actually it makes much more dramatic and narrative sense to have those children be taken/abducted/corrupted after theyve been born so theres something you can properly show. Or even if that was part of his thinking originally since stillborn children and post-natal mortality were always extremely closely related in cultural interpretations just deciding it confuses things a bit too much to lump that entire folkloric concept with a name that far more specifically connotes a stillbirth or miscarriage and much less so a post-natally deceased child.
New Quinn the GM AND new Michael Talks About Stuff? Let's GOOOOOOOOOOO
okay, this is kinda blowing my mind. i just have two things to say;
1. this makes so much more sense why the axed prequel was called blood moon. i did wonder why and thought it was a bit, not random but kind of a reach. but with this theory, it makes complete sense.
2. birds, snow, moon symbolism … that sounds a little bit like sansa…no?
she has bird symbolism; little dove, pretty bird, caged bird, mockingbird, little finger, song bird, people think she might warg into birds into the future. sweet robin, house arryn, living in a place called the eeyrie where she’s learning how to “fly the nest” and make it on her own, the winged knights tourney etc etc.
snow, it’s a big motif/reminder for her because being in the south, a warm temperate place, the snow is a memory that’s unique to her home, her heritage and identity. she recalls snowball fights with arya and bran (again, reminder of home & her pack), her scene in eeyrie godswood (one of her religions, connection to her father, her family, her home. the godswood was a place of solace for her in KL), she builds winterfell out of snow and it’s very likely that she is the snow maiden who will slay the giant.
the moon imagery is more obscure (i sound like charlie kelly doing his pepe silvia thing rn i know) but it reminds me what her father said to arya, “you might be as different as the sun and the moon…” i think people automatically think, well, arya is the artemis dark sister secret double life sister who changes her faces like phases of the moon but i don’t think that’s 100% correct. she is bold and bright, daring and fiery, she has both sides and so does sansa. sansa is “brighter” in the sense that she is prettier, her features more distinct so she cannot hide but she is not bold, she’s quiet and observant. arya can get along with everyone, sansa is charming but it’s superficial, it’s courtesy, it’s manners etc. she’s a mirror a lot of the time, reflecting back whatever projections people desire of her, like how the moon reflects light. also, her moon-blood is a pivotal plot point in her story and a moment in her life. brienne, who swore to protect her and is looking for her, and if anything like the show, she will become her sworn protector/sword, wore blue moon armour in renly’s rainbow guard, and her sigil, is a moon and sun. the arryn’s, who she flees to for protection, their sigil is a falcon and the moon. when she is fleeing, the small-folk spread rumours that she killed joffrey and transformed into a half-wolf, half-bat like creature (nocturnal animals who live under the moon, wolves howl at them etc). she, a hybrid winged creature flees “to the moon” (the arryn’s for safety. it’s like she is collecting herself moon protectors/guards, she’s finding strength in it, she’s finding power in the moon. (which would also mean, if she does turn nights queen and create shadow babies using moon magic, she’s turning the traumatic event of her moon-blood, the sign that she is fertile, ready to be married and forcibly impregnated, into a strength for her and her power also).
melisandre and that character from elden ring are red heads, but guess who else is? sansa. and she already has the icy symbolism by being a stark, no special commission figurine needed. she’s pale, with red hair, like the weirwoods, but instead of dark red eyes like mel, she has deep blue eyes… meaning, if you saw her from a distance, say like how the 13th lord commander saw the nights queen from atop the wall, how easy would it be to tell if she was wighted/an other or would you just assume, and be tricked into thinking that it’s just her blue eyes, like always?
she was brusquely cut off from any opportunity to begin to warg lady but that doesn’t mean that she was completely castrated from any magical ability. the stark blood clearly has something going on, and, house whent on her maternal grandmother’s side also tbf. maybe she was cut off from that element of magic for a reason, because she was meant to harness some other power instead? like how bran was always meant to fall from the tower, in order to curtail his ambitions to go down south & become a knight because he had a higher calling. (her and bran are the only stark’s described as “winged wolves”). but even still, lady remains with her, she dreams of her like she was there, running alongside her like her body is trying to wolf-dream but she just can’t. she can sense if lady would like somewhere, wishes that she there with her multiple times etc, that part of her is still present within her.
sansa is my fave character so ofc i watched this and my biased brain put two and two together and ended up with this line of thinking but i do think grrm’s penchant for this red head ice queen archetype is very interesting. i loved the qitn ending for sansa in the show, and ofc, i do dearly want to see her happy and in control of her own life but … something about evil dark ice sorceress sansa, who was radicalised or possessed to join the other side, or maybe something woke up within her like a sleeper cell is still so cool to me and i wouldn’t mind if that happened one bit. i’d fully welcome a nights queen villain arc icl.
Bro Sansa as a potential candidate holy I didn’t even think of that!!!!
@@samsara2521i was literally watching this video like…hang on, this sounds like someone we know? 😭 i know her storyline could potentially be more grounded and political rather than the high fantasy magical aspects of her siblings’ stories but i do think that, at least not until the very end of the series, that nothing and no one will be completely unmagical, it will affect everything. and if grrm wanted to, if he decided to, she IS right there, so he has options.
Wow bro. Quite a block of text. Wish I could read it
Been very excited for this vid.
LML is gonna be so proud of this celestial magic theory
57:37 GRRM specifically wrote about children being strung up on walls of a stronghold at the end of one of his Thousand World stories .
Michael… this is exactly what I needed today 👏🏽 thank you!
23:44 Radagon and Marika were walking around and interacting with the world separately long before Marika got locked in that tree
This is quite an interesting angle, it has quite a bit of merit to it, I will need to think this over and see how much of this I incorporate into my head canon if Winds never comes out lol
Great video! Love the content
The fact that Kit Harington allegedly had an affair with Carice van Houten while they were filming GoT S5 onwards makes Jon and Mel potentially shacking up in TWOW REALLY funny
This is a great video. I can't wait for the John snow nights king video. I am leaning more and more that way but I think his ending will be different to the show.
I think it was foreshadowed in the first book while he is in the crypts, covered in flour scaring arya. She punches him in the cut and I think this is how he will die. It's too much like the ending of the night king in the show. Stabbed exactly in the same place. Puts another meaning to stick em with the pointy end
Yep. I agree but she will do it out of mercy and as part of her role as a faceless men(they are erradicating all the "undead" cause all men must die, that's why they finished the Valyrian empire and also why Jaqen was heading to the Wall in the beggining but that's another personal theory that I have).
Anyway, the line that clearly foreshadows the Jon/NK - Arya connection is : "Needle was Winterfell, its summer snows and all the good memories" but specially she says at the very end of the phrase: "Needle was Jon Snow's smile". Also, the very last thing that Jon told her after saying goodbye was something along the lines of "the more you hide, the longer you'll suffer, and you'll end up sewing through the Winter until they find your body in the spring with a needle stuck between your fingers"
IMO Arya being the one stabbing Jon Snow (specially once he's turned into the NK) has always been heavily hinted. Also IMO, Jon Snow will grow tired of being an undead, that's why GRRM has always made us clear that the state in which they remain makes them suffer, but also because Jon will probably know that an innocent child was burned to bring him back. That's the only way the line of "Needle was Jon's smile" makes sense.
At 17:41 could the hidden door made of old grey wood, splintery and plain be a reference to the weirwood door in the night fort? Like, you have to enter it to find the source of the others which are inside the wall?
Love the newest Michael talks about stuff video!! Great Christmas Present! One quibble though, I thought George was only contracted for the prehistory of Elden ring and specifically things long long before marika and her order. The split self is a common Elden ring trope happening to characters other than marika. Other than this quibble awesome video
I live for these types of theory videos!
1:18:35 I don’t know if you’ve come across the theory that the oily black stone is actually shade of the evening trees that have been petrified. It would further highlight the symmetry between these elements.
Another great video!
I'm sure other people have probably talked it to death, but I think it still would've been worth it to mention GRRM's favorite movie, "Forbidden Planet." It's particularly salient to the question of how much conscious agency the person who casts the shadow has. I think it's meant to be very clear that Stannis, like Dr. Morbius in "Forbidden Planet," may have had a little murder in his heart in his dark moments, but he definitely wouldn't have been capable of doing what his shadow did to Renly in his waking hours. It took magic/alien technology capable of realizing his unconscious desires.
This is a really cool point actually. Obviously if it’s his favorite movie it would influence, even if just subconsciously.
And I agree that the shadow did what Stannis may have wished for, on some level, but could not or would not do with his own hands. Especially given how far he does eventually take his own actions in service to his ambitions.
I think INC did a video about how Stannis's shadows actually might still be around, too. I think there was one line in the books that super heavily hints that they are
I’m 100% onboard with this theory, except for the second secret moon part. And I’m not even really opposed to that part, it just feels like the least well-supported part of the theory. It seems plausible, but still too speculative for me to be fully convinced, if that makes sense. But, the rest of the theory works with or without that specific part anyway.
Same, but after watching Michael's live stream yesterday together with David Lightbringer... it actually maybe makes more sense that a huge chunk of the darkened second moon is still out there than that it isn't.
Another terrific video, Michael! I’ve been arguing the Others are second lives / shadows of the Starks for a few years, so I couldn’t agree more!!!
( I have a number of Q&As about this on my quora space A Theory of Ice & Fire including ‘What’s the deep, dark secret that lies at the heart of ASOIAF?’ and ‘What is the Stark horror theory for ASOIAF?’ and ‘What do the Others really want?)
The technical difference in the theories, I suppose, is whether an Other is the shadow of a greenseer underneath a weirwood or a Stark King of Winter lying in the crypts of Winterfell. I’ve gone back and forth about this myself. My latest versions is probably that the greenseer is stuck like the child of a forest in a raven watching through the eyes of the Other, but it’s the shade / consciousness of the the dead Stark who is control of the Other. That is how my theories are a little different than your version. I think maybe originally greenseers could control the shadows and they weren’t so icy, but there was a change that involved taking the seed of the Starks in exchange for making them Kings of Winter, and the shadows became icy and dead Starks gained control over them instead of the children of the forest in the roots of the trees.
It’s a twist you also propose that I have never considered before that the rivalry / conflict between Bran and Jon from the outline might come back / still be on. I base my theories on the text of the five novels we have, and I haven’t seen any evidence or foreshadowing of a Bran - Jon conflict there. That would be my caution. However, it’s definitely something to think about. I do agree wholeheartedly that there is a “Stark Horror Story” past and giant twists-buffet than anything so far-lie ahead.
It makes sense. However, I have also argued there is a lot of in text support for a future Sansa-Jon relationship that replaces the original Arya-Jon relationship and which is a retelling of Beauty and the Beast. I am quite convinced of this one. I am trying to figure out how a Bran - Jon conflict goes if Sansa is also on Jon’s side and either married to him for political reasons or in love with him after Jon rescues Sansa dramatically from Littlefinger (something I have predicted).
-A Theory of Ice & Fiee
This makes the fact that Euron has tied a pregnant woman to his ship to let her die in battle in a bigger megaritual even more interesting, it seems that a neverborn will be needed in that ritual too
Two videos in a week! You spoil us Micheal 🎉🎉🎉
Sir I never watched one of your videos nor heard of your channel but off rip I gave you a like for the length/ topic of the video
Amazing amazing. Damn this is the definition of thought provoking.
Love your analysis man!
Just found this video and channel ...holy shit. This guy is good.
i will die on the hill this is George's alt account cuz this mf perma spittin. if mike aint right the book isnt especially with his wall diagram
Couldn’t have spit it better myself
Dang. I know what my Sunday morning is now. Haha.
Excellent Video on this complexe subject.
I think there is a very important point to consider to bring it all together in the spirit of GRRM.
1. The spirit of GRRM is fervently antireligious, antimilitaristic and antimagic. He also doesnt by in black and white morality Good vs Evil but sees the "villains" as the heroes of the other side.
2. The whole ASOIAF is constructed highly dualistic: Ice and Fire, Starks and Targeryans, Children and Shadowmagic from Ashai, 2 moons one firy that has disapeared and one icy that is still there. Melisandre and the icey Nightqueen that exists only in legend.
3. George has constructed the story he tells around the ressurgence of ICE after a long period of dominance of FIRE with Ashai, Valyria and the Targeryans in Westeros.
4. The Fireside is represented through the creation of dragons controlled by fewer and fewer people to be used as a weapon to dominate others. It seems probable that the destruction of the Firemoon brought forth the dragons by at the same time throwing the East and Ashai in Darkness (probably the lightdrinking stone are the remenants of this moon made to crash to earth in a firy metorite and wich brought abaout the long night by simply throwing up dust into the atmosphere like happend with the dinosaures on earth). So George discribes the corruption of the natural fire through human sacrifice to create as shadowmagic: sacrify lifeforce to create Shadowghosts (as does Melisandre by using stanisses lifeforce to create an enslaved Stannis-Shadow that does her bidding), Bring down the Firemoon to create Dragons as unstoppable killing machines and to control them somehow, use glasscandles to send dreams and visions to manipulate others. The POV-Charactere that represents this form of shadow/fire-magic is Dany and Melisandre.
5. The Iceside seems to have been created by the children of the forest in their war against the first men during the pact. Before that the children use earth and water "magic" as their skills through the weirwoods (that where probalble just trees back then with green leafs and "drinking" water). I think you are absolutely right about the fact that the children used human (the first men) sacrifice to turn the weirwoods into a weapon and bring forth ice soldiers in form of the Others (as an opposite to the firesoldiers in form of the dragons). Crasters sons and the Starks have both blood of the first men to be able to keep the Others undead and even increasing their numbers. The Starks show us a second way the children used to weaponize nature. Their has been a mixing of the children with the firstmen that created bloodlines that where able to warg and to greensee like the cranogmen. Parallel the Valyrians mixed apparently their bloodlines with dragons to be able to controle these unstoppable killingmachines created with Shadowmagic (corrupted Firemagic if you will). Thats why I think the Others are the "spirits" of the weirwoods (watermagic corrupted to Icemagic) and fueld by bloodsacrifices from blood of firstmen (Wildlings, Starks crasters sons etc.). Sybolically George breaks the natural cycle of birth living, decaying and death and rebirth of the water cycle by freezing it and replacing the water with sacrifical blood and producing undead, neverborn Unlife in form of the Others. That makes the Others a parallel to the Ents in Tolkins world like Treesoldiers that defend nature. The Others are so not the Bads but the Nature Spirits (like the Sighe) that come to end the corruption of nature through the wars of men.
6. I think Bran the Builder probable never existed and is just a mythological figure like Garth the Green that represents the mixing of the bloodlines with the children to give special abilities to their decendents. And the POV-Bran is gonna be "Bran the Destroyer" by ending the corruption of the natural water-cycle through blood sacrifice and ending at the same time any supernatural abilities and beeings in Westeros.
7. On the Fireside the end is gonna be similar but noit identical. Dany (dragonblood) and Melisandre (shadowmagic) are going to be defeated or sacrifice themselves in the end to bring their corruption of the natural fire to an end as well. So in the end the dragons (firesoldiers) and the Others (Icesoldiers) are going to disapear.
This end of magic in a fantasy world is also the same in Tolkins LOTR where magic is leaving Middleearth in form of the Elves.
Please tell me what you think?
I like what you're saying, but I do have a question: If George wants the story to end with magic finally leaving the world of Planetos, then why is the possibility that the maesters are trying to achieve the same thing treated with a negative light?
@@yazanmowed It isn't all together. His self insert character Sam is studying to become a maester. Marwyn is an intreging character who uses magic to get power as does Quyburn. The Maesters are treated as a morally diverse group that fight amongst themselves over power and influence as well. The same is true for the religious organizations like the Septons and even the priesters of Rhellor.
Its again no Heroes and villains but complexe characters with complexe motivations just like real humans. 🙂
Uhhh huhhh… hmmm…
Anything connecting the Rhoynish to the icy moon? Desert coded River people worshipping an ice moon and getting water magic as a result makes a bit of sense
very well put together
I paused at 1:25 to share the followign thought. That would also explain why the Nightwatch man are not allowed to lay with a woman.
Anytime my interest in asoiaf wanes, Micheal reminds me that he remembers!!
Haven't watched yet, but we know this is gonna be a banger! ❄️👻🧒
Great stuff, Michael!!
35:40 The others will most likely generate a stronger cold storm?? than mel’s shadow baby because the others are cast with much more powerful magic. “She was stronger at the wall, stronger even than in Asshai… Such shadows i bring forth from here will be terrible, no creature of the dark will stand before them”
I can't help but feel him playing with Plato's Cave allegory with this whole story. Men, bound, having nothing to do but watch the cave wall. Their existence wrapped up in the casting of shadows.
As in the whole series is an allusion or parallel to Plato’s Cave?
I really like this theory and I am so glad that you made this all encompassing video to talk about your ideas so far. However, a lot of Jon's story sets him up to be opposed to tradition in the North. He consistently is able to humanize the wildlings and work with them rather than against them, even bringing them south of the wall. It feels like he is set up to be a force for change rather than continuation. This might be why his death and resurrection is so important, and why it failed in the show. Jon will go from a force for change and progress to a regressive force retaking traditional northern/Stark magical power after he dies because revived people are obsessed with their last action (Beric and Catelyn as you pointed out). The issue with his resurrection in the show is that they didn't actually change him into a darker figure or pull a 180 on his character arc like he has been set up to do in the books. You can remove Jon's death/revive from the show and nothing changes, but this might be the key to his future in the books. This would mirror Dany's arc as someone who starts out as a liberator who eventually becomes a fire-and-blood Targaryen conqueror. Jon would start as a peacemaker who becomes a magical warmonger.
Tbh part of me hopes this doesn't happen just because I like Jon a lot, but I can really see all of the evidence pointing towards a darker turn.
Hi, I saw in a different video you mention Elden Ring, I am firmly a believer that the "shadows" are jungian shadows. Check Out the Centered Tarnished, I think it might open up a new lens.
It should be mentioned that “shadows” are a metaphor for spirits / souls / consciousness. From a sci-fi angle, shadow binding and warging are literally just binding one’s consciousness into the physical body of another. Melisandre’s shadow baby is similar, but one’s consciousness remains in its etherial / shadow form.
I have had now a great premonition, a vision of things to come: The Winds Of Winter will never get to be published, its author will die, and his pride will prevent another to complete the work. This video is the completion of A Song Of Ice And Fire. I now know, I now may bid farewell.
I hope you and Dave talk about this on the Lore Summit… 🤯
Great video! I think you got some things wrong, but again without TWOW who knows, maybe you are spot on. Thank you for the time you put into making this video.
Do you think there's a deeper meaning behind why the wildlings call themselves free folk?
Is it just that they don't have lords and such?
Or is it because they're not a part of the mysterious pact between the Starks and the others? And that's why they're not on the safe side of the wall.
This video is over an hour long??? This must be our Christmas present... We accept😂😂😂😂😂
Excellent as always Michael, though I will point that there were THREE moons in elden ring. The black moon of the Nox. That moon has been speculated to be the dark moon, BUT you can actually pick up fragments of that broken black moon. It isssss worth noting that those fragments are called Memory Stones and those stones allow you to memorize more spells at a time.
This video was amazing thank you
The community is legitimately going to guess the plot before winds comes out.
Great theory. I 100% agree that the Others are shadows. It explains one of the names for Azor Ahai, Eldric Shadowcaser.
One thing I think your theory doesn’t currently account for is the corruption of the weirwoods. I strongly believe that the trees used to be green. Weirwoods = Garth trees. Garth the green planted green weirwood trees. Then the trees were corrupted, which is why the look terrifying and like they’re bleeding all the time. This is also hinted at with the Gray King legend about the him taunting the Storm God and setting a tree ablaze. The Gray King hated weirwoods and was killing them left and right: Naga’s bones, Ygg the demon tree.
I totally recommend Gray Area’s videos on the similarities between Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn. Particularly the information about the forging of the blade Sorrow. I would give more details but I know I’d mess it up. Watch them though, GRRM loves that book series.
I agree that the original trees were green. I also think that the green men on the isle of faces are actually untainted trees.
The corruption would be the literal strapping of a man's body to the weirwood roots for immortality, forcing it to pump blood and sustenance to the body. Michael theorized elsewhere that those who now cast the Others did that strapping with glass candles, combining both fire magic and ice magic. I think the original corruptors could be the greenseer kings (First Men founders of the great Houses) united by a GEoTD conqueror.
Michael talked about this elsewhere, how the corruption that turned the trees white might have been Azor Ahai or whoever forcing himself into the tree/roots with a glass candle impalement to gain immortality and they are still alive somewhat, thus casting the Others. I very much agree with that!
@@timmyruzicka7860what if the Children’s blood sacrifices (during the war with the first men, right?) was what corrupted the weirwoods. I do think they were once green when they were more associated a with Garth the Green and the children practiced more natural magic surrounding them, alongside Garth.
I’ve read a couple people who suggest that Garth the Green was a mythical figure and never existed. I disagree, I think Garth was real and a powerful magical being in the world. Maybe he even planted the green weirwoods.
not even a third done but i can see the moon tale tied into dragons and the long night being tied into your moon reasoning
this is awesome, great video
I think it would make more sense if they were just weapons of the children of the forest, because it also means that there isn’t a whole new avenue of unanswered questions that need to be exposed and then answered in supposedly two books. The explanation of them being from the children Would be much more elegant and something that could be exposed within the timeframe of the books. Anything more would just leave more questions unanswered and would seem a little dumb for the main foe of the book. I also think it ties in nicely with the theme south of the wall, because the entire premise is that all of these rivalries that have been going on for decades or centuries are always bubbling underneath the surface just waiting for their chance to be exploited, between house and Cultures and individuals. So it also makes sense that the biggest one of all would be the children’s revenge on human beings and the others as their weapon. It fits thematically perfectly.
Do more franchises man youve got a gift for this.