ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 มิ.ย. 2024
- The OpenFFBoard is a huge project i am spending a lot of time on and i finally want to tell you more about it.
Racing demos of the wheel i made are near the end at 16:20 - 23:30 as there was some interest in seeing some action.
Its a low cost open source interface with an expandable firmware for creating custom force feedback devices for simulators and its own Trinamic TMC4671 based motor driver.
Its also planned to support different motor drivers and multi axis setups for flight simulators as well.
Timestamps:
00:00 - Motivation
01:35 - Powerstep version
04:30 - OpenFFBoard & TMC4671 version
09:11 - Software architecture
16:15 - Demo: Drifting Assetto Corsa
18:14 - Demo: Racing Project Cars
23:36 - Summary
Project page OpenFFBoard with updates: hackaday.io/project/163904-op...
Github: github.com/Ultrawipf/OpenFFBoard
Support me on patreon: / gigawipf
Discord: / discord
Boards made by JLCPCB: jlcpcb.com/?from=Gigawipf
Powerstep FOC paper:
Simple Torque Control Method for Hybrid Stepper Motors Implemented in FPGA:
www.researchgate.net/publicat... - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Had the chance to get my hands on the first version at the Makerfaire in Berlin.
With this FFB-Wheel you don't drive a stepper.
The stepper drives you. 😄
Excellent work. I’ve been looking for a project like this for quite a while.
This looks really promising. Will look forward into seeing this finished 👀
WOW! Awesome project and big thanks for describing it!
Pure genius. Warm greetings from Wales 😀
Excellent work. Looks very promising.
Amazing project! Congratulations!
This is a brilliant project!
This project is great, I like it very much
Hey, Gigawipf
I absolutely loved your idea!
And about stepper as DD motors, it's not just possible, it's actually being used by SimXperience on their ACCUFORCE V1 DIY system, maybe checking their systems you can get progress from a different source.
thats bloody awesome
This was a great video - I'll be following you with great interest - to hopefully build one myself soon. Will you and are you going to be selling your controller and software or making it available ?? Keep up the really great work !!
Awesome build can't wait for you to finish development of the board, I have the servo motor added to my cart on aliexpress, will buy as soon as you give a green light on the board. I just wanted to know what power supply you are using to drive that motor.
Amazing job!
Color me happy, subscribed and interested!
I kind of think the powerstep version was really interesting. Maybe we can attach a CPU cooler to the chip to solve the heat problems. It's a really cheap solution and can be a nice option to lower spec wheels in the market.
This project is fantastic! Congratulations not only for the project but also for sharing it and making it open. I have been looking for something similar to what you are doing for a long time and this project is perfect for the options we have in my country. I am from Argentina and it is not easy to be able to buy "Direct Drive" wheels, first because they are not officially sold and second because the prices here are crazy (we have many, many taxes) making it impossible to buy one of these.
I am seriously thinking about carrying out the project because the project is open, I hope to be able to buy the components to carry out the project since from what I see I would have no problems getting each component.
I have a question for you and it is knowing how much difference there is between the project with a stepper motor and a g29 logitech wheel, since it is the one I have at the moment and I see that you have the h-gear.
Thank you very much and I will be contacting you when I start this project.
This is great! I took a look at your Github repo and was wondering where you learned to work with FFB and HID devices? I was looking into doing a project like this myself, but got stuck on the FFB driver portion as I couldn't find enough literature online about it. Were there some papers or websites you used to learn about writing FFB software?
Yeah the HID + physical interface part was hard and still not finished. I would like to implement multi axis support in the future. In my first version i spend several weeks getting infos and finding examples and similiar project and there was not much to be found apart from others giving up or using bridge solutions.
After some time i got a device working mostly by looking into the vJoy descriptors and effects and the 20 year old USB documentation for PIDs. (Device Class Definition for Physical Interface Devices -usb.org)
Thats the reason why its designed more like a development board with different applications than a single finished product.
Nice, such a good project, I'm really interessed.
I was actually thinking of using one of my vesc to build a similar setup when I stumbled over your project.
Is the software and hardware you posted on your github basically everything I would need to reproduce your current state or is some software not public yet.
Looking forward to see the updates on your project.
Vesc support is definetly planned too. Probably via UART. At the moment PWM out and the TMC are usable.
If you want to use the software and the USB interface you can also implement your own motor driver interface but its likely we have better vesc support soon :)
What a legend!
nice cable management
good work
Wow! I've wanted something like this for a while now. I started a belt driven build about three years ago. Finally finished it now, using arduino and EMC Pro, but I'd buy your controller and software, so that I can finally go direct drive.
When will yours be released?
Hi
Is your arduino and EMC pro based wheel direct drive or gear/belt driven? I have an arduino and am trying to interface a conventional closed loop stepper motor and driver with it.
I need some questions answering - been searching for ages!
brother man i love you
geiler shit !
firstly, i didn't even understand 50% about the video, but it's because i'm a real crowling baby on this subject. Second thing: your accent remind me Sebastian Vettel for some reason (i know why) XD. And last, thank you so much for sharing this knowledge with us.
Hi. I have seen your project progress in hackaday and it really inspires me to start studying electronics, although it is still a long way to reach that level. Have you heard of the simagic m10? it looks like it uses a stepper motor, I saw it in a "Boosted Media" video, can you give some of your impressions about the motor and the controller method?
Seems pretty new. Would be interesting to compare different stepper based wheels. At the moment compared to a servo the stepper feels quite a bit worse. Of course some tuning can help there but would be good to know if they use standard or custom motors but i can't say anything about that without some more information.
This is amazing! I've been looking to upgrade my arduino/dc motor wheel but all the available DD servo drivers are out of my budget. I am wondering if you can use this board combo to "replace" the well known ioni/simucube drives. I want to run a small 3ph servo motor. Looking forward to see further development :)
Yes that is possible. I have not built a 3 phase wheel yet but the motor driver supports that.
I am currently looking for testers and tuning the parameters for common motor types.
@@Gigawipf Sweet! I was planning to buy a Mige 90st 1000W servo with 4nm constant and 12nm peak torque. The virus spread got in the way tho...I still need to contact them and order the servo. If I do end up getting it we can figure something out:)
@@Gigawipf I will try to build wheel from my old thrustmaster tx burnt wheel. I've go 'body' without electronics main board-i've got 2 of it. But it has bldc motor. If your board will work with bldc motor I'm interested in buying/testing.
@@jacekkalisz1986 in theory it should work if you manually center the wheel and have a quadrature encoder on that. But i don't know what type of encoder it uses stock. Its some kind of magnetic encoder on the motor directly and it may or may not work directly.
I had a broken TX once with a completely dead interface board. Should have kept it for testing.
@@Gigawipf it's a rotary encoder AS5048A. Original tx pcb has 6 soldering points. Always it can be replaced by rotary encoder. Only what to do is measure original handle and prepare 3d print part to Mount rotary encoder
What engine did you use?
Do you have plans to support Suzo Happ force feedback wheels found in arcades? Or other Arcade steering wheels. I refurbish and convert arcades to MAME cabinets, and this would be awesome!!! For new custom builds I would use a direct drive motor.
Hm interesting. Don't know which kind of motor they use but probably some simple DC motor? That would be possible. Is there a real encoder or just a potentiometer? that would need some changes but should be possible
would it have support for the sincos and biss-c type encoders? or does that come down to stepper driver level?
The motor driver itself does only support incremental AB encoders and with some additional hardware maybe analog sin/cos encoders. But in theory you could adapt other encoders by sending the digital position directly to the drivers registers either via the UART port or the STMs SPI. Its possible but not yet implemented. Not sure if you have any benefit from that though.
so all i need its a motor with driver and the STM32F4?
connect them together and it will work with the open FFB? o_O
Do you plan on releasing the schematics for the TMC4671 driver board? I'm looking into it for a project of mine and It's just so hard to wrap my head around all the things required for it. Seeing another implementation of it would be great.
Yes i will.
Actually the TMC devkits schematics are also open source and you can find them on the Trinamic homepage as well. I am using almost the same power stage setup so that might help too.
The biggest difference is that Trinamic generates all voltages by stepping down from the motor supply while a am using a separate 5V supply instead from the STM board so the TMC remains powered and i am using the higher amplification shunt amps and buffers for encoder and hall input protection.
@@Gigawipf Awesome, thanks!
I feel like someone this smart should have no trouble buying a new DD setup
Good work , i made my own wheel as well but simpler using pots , it was 10 years ago , now its a different thing , however , i did have Logitech Driving Force pro , and other then being loud , its enough . I also found that there is no need for 70% of its torque , and its the one with 1 motor and a smaller one , there is a GT version with a stronger motor , and then with 2 motors , this is in my opinion not needed . So i think there is no need for 100E Stepper motor , half the size is more then enough ..
But in any case great work , tho if you ask me would i build my own wheel even with potentiometers , i would not , the amount of work needed is just too much , as for you you could have earned 3 of those wheels for the time you built one , but i guess if you want to work in the area then it is recommended it all depends on what you want to do .
How does that work with stepper control in this case? Is this 13Nm the max you will get with lots of ripple or can you achieve 13Nm without ripple throughout the movement range?
The higher the torque the higher the ripple you feel when moving. At lower torque its smooth. There is some tuning you can do but a stepper will always feel a bit rougher at high torque depending on how well the motor is made and if the controller can compensate.
A 3 phase servo would be smoother in this case.
Where would i buy this,how much do you want it to cost, and when will you start selling it?
How to fix/mount the rim on the motor shaft..?
I hope one day you'll make a step by step guide for us idiots like me to get it set up xD
Have you tried to make it with brushless motor with encoder? Odrive looks like a pretty good choice
Yes it does support BLDC motors. Servos are pretty nice and much smoother than steppers here.
Sorry for the dumb question (english is not my main language, cannot fully understand the video.) , but this project is finished and replicable? Or still in development phase?
There are usable prototypes but its not finished and still limited. Once its more usable i will post an update.
where can i buy this parts?
can someone explain how did he lock the steering wheel after a certain degree?
In any case very good work . i am tempted to try it . but he boards are the biggest problem .
PeerPeer😄😄
Hey mate. I am starting a DD servo driver project for the same purpose. Was considering going the DD stepper route but figured the motors are almost identical in price as you can find 130ST-15015's on ebay and elswhere for 180-220$ How much was the stepper you picked up?
Also you got a discord or anything? if not I will just get at you on github
The stepper was about 100€. Also the servos are 100-150€ in shipping alone so still much more expensive but i definetly need one for testing and can't get any at the moment for a reasonable cost.
@@Gigawipf I reached out to you on Github.
Ist das Thrustmaster TX, welches kurz eingeblendet wird, mit einem neuen Mainboard ausgestattet? Ich habe das Mainboard von meinem leider zerstört und deshalb interessiere ich mich dafür. Nun uz meinen Fragen. Wo hast du den Encoder platziert? Oder hast du weiterhin den Magneten verwendet? Außerdem; welches Board hat du dafür verwendet und welches Netzteil. Ich finde gut das du dieses Video gepostet hast, da mir die Preise der Lenkradhersteller einfach zu hoch sind. Danke.
Das TX war defekt und besitze ich leider nicht mehr. Welche Version das ist kann ich leider auch nicht mehr sagen.
Hätte ich behalten und mit dem neuen Board reparieren können, habs aber bevor ich die Motortreiber gebaut habe bereits nicht mehr gehabt und damit auch nicht modifiziert.
Den Magneten kann man nutzen und dürfte sich mit einem AMS5115 auch mit dem TMC nutzen lassen. Werde ich für die nächste Version testen damit sincos Encoder laufen. Ansonsten nutzt das TX meine ich ein digitales Interface das ohne extra Microcontroller nicht mit dem Motortreiber funktionieren würde.
@@Gigawipf danke
I have a question, I'm very new to electronics but have a computer science background. I wanted to know if it's possible to use an off the shelf Motor driver instead of the Open FFBoard and get it to work with the software. Thanks a lot, what a great project!
You will at least need the FFBoard microcontroller board but you can use other motor drivers like the odrive, vesc or anything accepting PWM signals instead of the TMC4671 based driver.
@@Gigawipf Thank you very much for your response. I would try to ship the FFBoard to where I live, but It's not garanteed (at a fair price). I'll definitely do more research on the controllers and what I need.
I wanted to use the 12N.M. Numa34 Stepper motor for this project. There is a contorller which would allow for 256 microstepping, giving it 51200 pulse/rev. I'm not sure if it will be smooth enough, but I figured I'd give it a shot, it's a fun project.
Thanks again for the awesome work!
hola, me gustaria poder montar un simulador con un motor nema 34 que tengo no se si me puedas ayudar con planos o que componentes necesito y como poder crearlo, lo que yo tengo es Nema 34-Motor paso a paso de 2 fases, kit de servocontrolador de circuito cerrado de 12.5m, adaptable a motor 86HB250-156B 86 de modelo HB860H.gracias
Hi this is an awesome project. I am building a Heli Sim with Force Feedback controls. Are you selling these boards? I would be interested in purchasing a couple.
looks great are you selling the boards and if so where and maybe i missed it but what encoder 1000 line 2000 line
There are no boards to sell yet. Hopefully later.
More resolution is always better. 1k is a bit too low. For steppers you want as many counts as possible to reduce ripple. A servo is much better though.
@@Gigawipf Ok thanks i think i have a 2000 or 2500 on a 80st that might fit on the Nema 42 20Nm stepper just depends on shaft size also i have a digital driver with the stepper motor as i bought a closed loop system thinking was the driver and power supply is one unit
Also i wanted to ask , do you offer the boards , can the parts be purchased , that way if i have DIY kit , then maybe i could build one .
Yes on the later videos are links and a kit was shown here: th-cam.com/video/q9GLcx61Q4k/w-d-xo.html
@@Gigawipf Fantastic , your reply tells me your from Europe like me , so that is going to mean it can be purchased in EU or has to be china . Thanks a bunch .
Can you add a list of all the items by name and link, I'd need for this build ?? love to replicate for personal use
Hi! May I know where to find tutorial for assembling?
He's still working on it, so I doubt an assembly tutorial will be available any time soon
Funktioniert der StepDir eingang amTMC4671 oder werdendie Daten über SPI übermittelt? LG
Kommunikation komplett via SPI. Stepdir funktioniert im neuen Chip, aber wird nicht genutzt
@@Gigawipf ok danke. ich wollte mal einen BLDC Regler bauen und musste dann aber feststellen das der StepDir nicht unterstützt wird. Den Chip an sich find ich eigentlich echt cool. Sollte mal schauen ob ich da eine aktuelle Version für das Eval bekomme.
@@kaiwiedersum1645 naja brauchst trotzdem einen Microcontroller dran der dir den Chip erstmal einrichtet. Die Setup Sequenz braucht auch etwas Arbeit und Logik.
@@Gigawipf Das stimmt. Entweder die Landungsbrücke oder wenn ich das richtig sehe den RTM Adapter. Ich hab ja das Eval Kit hier liegen, was leider momentan wegen Kurzschluß ausser Dienst ist, und hatte damit das Projekt nicht weiter verfolgt, weil das Step Dir nicht ging. Der Controller selbst ist meiner Meinung nach genial. Alles drin was man eigentlich braucht.
Alles klar, her mit dem Ding 😁 Ne jetzt mal wirklich wann und wo kann ich das gute Stück ordern? 😅
Wenn die neue Motor Treiber Version fertig ist können hoffentlich ein paar gefertigt werden.
Guck am besten in den verlinkten Discord oder die Projektseite. Kann nichts versprehen, aber ein paar Monate wird es wohl noch dauern.
@@Gigawipf danke für die Info :)
Will it work with ps4???
this setup nice and complicated,can i know how the wheel can read by game function force feedback?
It uses the standard HID physical interface protocol. The game detects it like a normal gamepad with force feedback like any other ffb wheel without any extra drivers.
@@Gigawipf sometime force feedback didn't function while play assetto corsa,i'm using indonesia developer software for sim wheel....maybe i trying out this setup,what board actually can use for this setup?STM32?
@@Gigawipf i glad to know more about DD or force feedback and HID sure this can be edit?
awesome! How can I get your driver?
I will keep posting updates on the hackaday page and will announce here once i would deem it "ready" to be used.
Its still very experimental and will probably stay that way for some time.
@@Gigawipf there are options to be a tester? I will write about your project on the Russian forum of simracers I'm sure that many will want to test it at their own peril and risk. =)
Congratulations for the excellent project. I'm from Brazil and I was very interested in your project. Do you intend to sell the project when it is ready? I would like to manufacture a model to test.
Before i can make more of the motor drivers i have to wait for trinamic to sell the final chip. Will keep you all updated.
@@Gigawipf can we buy the boards already?
Which are the pros/cons of using a stepper motor instead of a servo?
Steppers are cheaper and easier to get most of the time and have pretty high holding torque even at lower currents but get less smooth at high torques as they saturate. Probably comparable to belt driven wheels in the feeling but faster and still more direct with sufficient voltage. Depends a lot on the tuning and how good the motor actually is made.
Servos should provide smoother feedback and even higher accelerations and often can take more current.
I currently have no big servo to really test it myself though as they are pretty expensive but i would like to work on one.
@@Gigawipf How about using a this mige servo used by Sim.plicity MiGE 110ST-M06030, you can buy this on eBay from china for £ 130 (150 Euro) with postage. In fact if you go to sim-pli.city they list which motors they use exactly. If you can get a motor like this for £ 130 how much would all the other components cost? Here is an eBay link to that motor for sale: @t
Do you by any chance know how to interface FFB to PS4?
Unfortunately you can't easily. The ps4 whitelists allowed controllers. The only way would be to emulate one of those.
@@Gigawipf thanks for quick reply:)
nema 34 or mige M10010, which one to get?
Mige is smoother
@@Gigawipf nice, thank you!
Hello
Can you show the schematic to build this fbb and the parts list?
Its all in the linked git but a new usb interface will be released soon. currently working on it. Better wait for that update
hello frend
Is it possible to connect ps4 using a converter?
Not directly. ps4 only allows a whitelist of certified devices
Is it possible to modify and compile to stm32f103?
Not really. The F1 is different enough to require many changes and no F1 chip has enough flash for it and you would lose the FPU as well and a much lower performance.
Too much work to make it worse in the end. If you can't get the chips porting it on a different F4 devboard would be possible in most cases but the easiest would be to stick with the F407VG.
@@Gigawipf
Which game needs more processing with effects?
Я не понял ничего из того, что перевел ютуб. Но очень интересно.
How much finishing price in American dollars?
Awesome Project!
I wanted to ask which encoder you are using?
Grüße aus Hessen.
E6B2CWZ6C clone 2500cpr. (10kppr, mit 3d printed adapter).
Closed loop stepper/servos mit incremental quadratur Encoder direkt sind einfacher.
@@Gigawipf Danke für die schnelle Antwort.
Das Projekt sieht echt vielversprechend aus. Auf stepperonline gibt es allerdings nur closed looped stepper mit 1000cpr, aber ich habe sowieso einen 3D Drucker, also wäre ein normaler stepper mit encoder und adapter auch kein problem.
Aber um genaueres kann ich mich ja kümmern, wenn das Open FFBoard etwas weiter ist.
Aber ich hätte noch eine Frage: Merkt man nicht beim drehen des Lenkrades die einzelnen steps? Ich hatte noch nie so einen großen stepper motor in der Hand aber bei z.B. Nema 17 motoren merkt man die ja schon, wenn man den motor mit der Hand dreht.
Und benutzt du microstepping?
@@philipkunkler6341 Die 1000cpr sollten auch ok sein. das würde 4000ppr entsprechen immerhin.
"Steps" an sich nutze ich gar nicht und damit kein Microstepping. Der Motor wird per closed loop FOC angesteuert. Je nach Motor merkt man bei hohem Drehmoment definitiv die Steps, da das Magnetfeld im Motor nicht gleichmäßig ist. Lässt sich mit etwas Tuning und höherer Spannung aber reduzieren.
Die Alternative wären 3 phase Servos. Teurer, aber dafür auch besser. Ich hab aktuell leider keinen zum selber testen hier.
@@Gigawipf Und wie ist das im "Leerlauf", also ohne irgendwelche ffb effekte, merkt man da die steps wenn man den motor dreht?
@@philipkunkler6341 Mit Lenkrad dran kaum. Kommt aber auch sehr auf den Motor an und ob man ein dämpfendes oder eher aggressives tuning vom Motortreiber hat. An den optimalen Settings wird noch gearbeitet.
Bei meinem Motor merkt man bei wenig Drehmoment kaum was. Bei einem Servo wäre es noch besser.
Don't you feel the steps of the stepper motor wil turning
There are no "steps" as you know them from traditional drivers as its running FOC. But you will feel torque cogging of the motor more the higher the torque is. Realistically it is okay until about half its rated holding torque. Above that it will feel more like skipping steps because the motor has a much lower holding torque between the "steps".
@@Gigawipf ok thanks
I'm super interested in this. Are you still working on it?
Yes it is still in active development. Check out the discord for more updates. Next video might take a while
@@Gigawipf I'm wondering how to the g29 acting like a button when side to side
@@tomatoe308 The shifter is a 2 axis joystick so depending on the position a button press is generated.
Are you planning on selling these at some point?
Ff
@@dang.4040 I agree.
I'm very interested in buying parts from you when ready.
I need this dude :D Help me make it?
if you see my last YT vids you will see why I need your stuff asap. hope you can help mate