ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 พ.ค. 2024
- Since the last announcement a lot of progress was made and i want to share some experiences and ideas with you in this video by comparing the stepper with a small and a large servo motor in terms of quality, cost and power.
To make configuration much easier a GUI will be developed and the current status is shown at 7:17.
This GUI is not final and might change a lot but i hope this gives you some ideas how the FFBoard could be configured.
The TMC setup and error handling definetly has to be improved here.
The next TMC4671 motor driver will need a redesign of many parts because while the old version works it still has a few problems with reliability and ease of use due to the lack of an onboard buck converter and missing mosfet protections.
The old boards are designed for development and testing of the chip.
The next version will feature the new chip and should be much easier and safer to use.
Chapters:
0:00 Intro
1:15 Nema34 stepper
2:35 80ST small servo
4:13 130ST big servos
5:48 Motor types summary
7:17 GUI walkthrough and button sources
14:22 PWM motor control
16:48 Thrustmaster wheel mount
18:59 New TMC motor driver ideas/problems
Usable example motors:
130ST-M15015
130ST-M10010
80ST-M04025
80ST-M02430
Nema34 Steppers with Encoder (34HE59-6004D-E1000, 34HS59-5004D +Encoder)
Links:
Thrustmaster wheel mount STL: www.thingiverse.com/thing:437...
Nema34 encoder mount: www.thingiverse.com/thing:439...
Project page: hackaday.io/project/163904-op...
Github firmware: github.com/Ultrawipf/OpenFFBoard
Github GUI: github.com/Ultrawipf/OpenFFBo...
Discord: / discord
Patreon: / gigawipf
Donate: paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=...
Big thanks to all supporters who allowed me to get hardware for development and believe in this project. - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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Can't wait to see the new hardware running at your desk. Looking forward to buy or build such setup for myself 🙂
Really love what you are doing here. I wanted to get on the direct drive train but always found them to be too expensive. This seems like could be my winner choice. This thing and wireless steering wheel button box is the dream. Im looking forward to being able to get one of those boards, would love to try this setup one day.
This sounds amazing. Keep up the great work!
Thanks for sharing. I hope there will be a diy kit available soon.
Can't wait to hear more about and and finally print those PCB's :D
thank you for sharing your awesome insights
would an Encoder like the AS5600 rotary hall effect sensor work? Also I would love to see a list of almost all the motors you can use.
Great project
Very cool project :)
Live your project!! I am currently using a g27 and i am mostly doing drift stuff. The small servo Sounds the most interesting to me👍🏼 how much is the board going to cost when finished (rough estimate) 😁
This is one of the most exciting, or even the most exciting DIY project in Simracing that I know and observe. I wish you good luck with the next generation of hardware!
One question at this point: Which encoder do you use on Mige Servo?
The Mige servos were tested with the 10k and 2500cpr incremental encoders.
Epic!
do you have a tutorial videos on how you built and all software used? very useful video with a full step by step
whats the reason for the "bouncing" on the y axis of the joystick when you turn the wheel?
My dad has a ton of heidenhain servo motors from 90s era German CNC machines. I'm sure he'd give me one if i could figure out how to drive it. I'm sure i could find a pinout for the plug on it. He's got original drives to but they're huge, probably 380v volts and would definitely break your arm. lol
Excellent video and wonderful work for DIY projects!
A question for you, I have a T300RS wheel/base and am changing to a Mige-based system.
Could you help me find a 3D-printer files for the adapter. I would like to mount my T300RS rim on the Mige; and I can't find an adapter for this yet.
Thanks for your help!
I uploaded an adapter system that i made for my 130st and the T500 wheel to thingiverse. Should be linked in the description. That should work for the T300RS too
cheers！
Such a long way you've come. Would you still recommend the steppers or 80 Mige when transitioning from a Logitech DFGT?
If possible i would use the 80mm mige over a stepper.
Super cool stuff you're building here. I found the hackaday post about it a few weeks ago when I was searching for info in order to build a custom force feedback joystick. Any possibility for a board that would drive multiple motor axes? Since you're doing another design I thought I'd mention that the flight sim community might be interested - we'd probably look for lower torque/cost motors than necessary for a wheel.
Additionally, I've had a very difficult time finding general information behind the way coding for these processes work. Do you have any articles that you used when you were researching the friction and spring effects?
Support for multiple axes is planned but for some time in the future. The driver is designed to have up to 3 in parallel or you could use a dual axis odrive.
For the FFB i recommend looking into the official USB PID documentation and the vjoy project as examples.
Hey, what encoder do you use for the nema 34 stepper motor?
can i use stepper motor to build the wheel base?
Hi！May i know how to connect all those thing? Thank you
i like to build from my own, but i dont undertand so much that board + program, can that bee fixed wen plug usb or when start pc everything is ok or it will need all time to open and do some changes, i have old logitech is very good but when i see some crazy fast ffb it make me like to build one :D
without i see some video which can show everything from zero to finish i do not feel sure to start build one
Very good project, I love it.
I have a question, to drive the servos the TMC4671-driver board is needed (like for the stepper) or only the OpenFFBoard-main is necessary. Thank you very much
The TMC board is the motor driver. You need it to drive servos. The main controller is the usb interface that you need to interface with the driver. So the whole openffboard kit would be both.
At the moment a batch of the new board is being made and soon tested. I would advise against trying to make one before that.
@@Gigawipf Thank you very much for this super fast answer. Probably I'm going to source the motor first and then wait for the updated board. Looking forward to mount one of this in my hand made simulator structure😍
Can you make one of this videos but about spindle dc motors? Did you have tried? Ty
G'day mate, I just busted the wheel on my yt channel simrig build. I never went direct drive because im hopless with teck and wont spend cash so have to create odd stuff. You made it look almost plug and play, Reckon you make it possible for even me ..ehh no . but ill watch and learn.
Awsome job
Id actualy spend cash for your a plug n play dd unit
Its not really plug and play now but the next version will have some improvements and over the time it should get easier to set up and i will make a setup tutorial once i consider it stable.
@@Gigawipf, thats fantastic. I will be very patient, To see how quiet, strong and accurate your results are so far is second to none. A rally sim I build on my new yt channel with your tech will be mind blowing and well worth the wait. After years chipping away at prototyp
*prototypes
hi bro, I have 2 different models but the same brand stepper. I couldn't find their properties even though I searched a lot on the internet. All I know is the model, degree and mm.FL57STH51-1004A-01
1.8 degree 57mm 1.0A
second one stepper: 1.8 degree 42mm 0.6A
I need some help for voltage and etc.
you need to test it with GIDL Race
Can you share all the components needed for the nema34 build please
so im really looking into building a wherl and was wondering on how some offer the option for a brake in the motor. is that necessary or even adds anything for this purpose?
If your motor has a brake you have to remove it or switch it on (release) with the driver.
Not needed and only annoying.
@gigawipf I'm thinking of building a direct drive with a nema 34 12nm stepper, so what motor should I buy, a built in encoder stepper or a conventional motor without encoder? So with the conventional stepper I would have to buy a separate encoder for it. I will try to make a arduino controller for ffb effects
Using stepper motors for torque control is really hard as i said because they have much more poles and shorter phases than servos so you need a very high resolution encoder for good FOC control. Problem is that most steppers with built in encoder have a very low resolution and aligning an external encoder to a stepper is really hard to do. I would recommend a servo instead like the 80ST-M04025 which is not much more expensive. But a stepper would work (but not as good) with the tmc provided you have an encoder mounted perfect.
👍👍
Hi, your videos are informative than any other in this subject, yet I am unable to understand how the FFB signals are conveyed to the controller from the game software? Is is all over USB, as you told in previous video i recall something about event updates, could you please attach any docs about reading the communication that would be very much appreciated.
Is it by any stretch linked to the mmos implementation! Because the FFB tuning utility is identical to that.
They all need to implement predefined effects so the tuning options between FFB devices will be similiar. You can read more about them in the USB physical interface device specification and how direct input is used by games to talk to devices.
Hi there, how do I order one of these boards, thank you in advance.
this is so Exciting....
Where i can find this control Boards?
I'm really want build a DD for me with the Nema Stepper... But i don't find the TMC for sale....
Thanks A Lot
The first larger batch will probably get announced in the linked discord. This is still an early prototype and it will take some time to test and fix any issues.
@@Gigawipf Ok... i'm already join the discord... I'm really intrested on the Afordable DD..... The Nema Stepper motor needs a Control module... or you can wire directly on the control Board?!
Take care! Have a great week!
sincerly
Marcelo
@@MZanatta79 Torque mode drivers for steppers are rare. At leat i don't know any that are good enough. Thats why i made my own. You need the TMC based motor driver for that.
@Gigawipf are these AC motors synchronous or asynchronous? I have a good Lenze asynchronous motor and curious if I could use it with your device in the furure. Thanks
Synchronous 3 phase (PMSM). The same as hobby brushless motors.
@@Gigawipf exactly, PMSM and BLDC are mostly same.
How to wire up the servo encoder
please tell me DD motor (without step) about 5-8 Nm
Awesome project. Congratulations.
Are you going to sell pre-built controllers or pcb-s? This project requires fine soldering skills. What is your take on the project with respect to diy?
Keep up the good work. :)
It is intended for DIY builds and expandable. Plans for the hardware are open source but as sourcing parts and soldering may not be viable for most people i plan to get some batches made later.
@@Gigawipf are there plans for the pcb available in gerber format? I might want to give it a try later on and send it for jlcpcb for etching. I have a friend who can do the soldering for me.
But I will wait until there is a more complete version
@@gerzsone30 I highly recommend not using the current files and wait until i have tested a new version. If you do replace the lm5050 and input mosfet with a diode and add a buck converter to always supply 5v before powering up the motor power supply because of the mentioned mosfet issue. And i recommend using 2oz copper and it might be much easier to let a factory assemble a batch than soldering by hand. Its not fun after a few boards and will take a few hours/days per board.
@@Gigawipf thanks. I will definitely wait for the next version. My friend builds test equipment for Bosch, he does this type of soldering every day. :D probably I will wait for a complete one. Sign me up for one, please :)
What about the frecuenzy noise that there are in some videos of direct drive wheels created with this servo motors?
Depends a bit on the motor and settings but generally with the TMC its very quiet as the switching frequency is 25khz. A belt or gear driven wheel makes much more noise.
Better Nema 34 or Mige 80st?
can you use other servo motors?
can i use stepper motor to build the wheelbase?
hi sir. Can you do it?
Great work!, How are you driving the mige motor?
With the TMC4671 based motor driver developed for this project as its a normal 3 phase servo.
A i said in the video i am currently working on an improved version.
@@Gigawipf Could you give more details about this? I read the code but can't understand how the TMC4671 or OpenFFBoard can drive AC servos. The diagram on the official TMC4671 site has a gate driver and power stage between TMC4671and the motor. Do you have such a stage? Or are you driving these AC servos as DC somehow? Thank you in advance, this is a fantastic project.
Is there any reason why the bolt holes on the thingiverse version don't line up?, I have printed to use, and the holes are not straight between the 22mm and the TM long adaptor. also checked in fusion and they do not line up?
Let me check. The TM long should not be in there. Maybe the wrong file was uploaded or not saved. Should be corrected now.
Do you think I can use thrustmaster t300 electronics and connect the 130st servo motor with sufficient power supply?
no that will not work
@@Gigawipf thanks for your input
Everything is very difficult!!!! there is no normal instruction how to set up the configurator?
What servo motor do you recommend without counting the largest one for simracing ???
Probably the 80ST-M04025
have you tested the motor temperature? especially on the 80st series mige motor? is it overheating?
80st can get warm to hot if you push it far over its limits for a longer time. The others stay pretty much cold with their larger size and better efficiency.
@@Gigawipf ok thanks for the info, I'm planning to make a compact DD wheel with an 80st or 90st m04025 series motor, but I'm worried the motor will be overheat. what do you think? because I've never built a DD wheel before
Can i use nema23 instead?
hello bro
Where can I buy PCB?
Grate content, i have a question its worth to get a the RTELLIGENT Store
RTELLIGENT Nema34 Closed Loop Stepper Motor 12Nm + T86 Driver 24-100VDC/18-80VAC + Encoder Extension Cable, Hybrid Servo Kit 1000pp will i only need the ffb interface and. A power supply? Or is the motor with the enconder not worth purchasing all togther goes for about 180£
Hello! First thanks sharing your experience and knowledge. I am in Brazil and for us the final price of a MiGe (including taxes) could reach 4 months of "minimum salary". It's too expensive for many people (myself included). But we have a Lot of used servo motors for sale in the local market. I was wondering If It ia possible to use another servo motor in a project like that.
sure you can. It only has to be an incremental encoder and not a resolver. Be careful with that because many used servos used resolvers.
@@Gigawipf that's great. TKS for the responde.
@@Gigawipf can i use nema34 with the model "86hs65"?
@@paklekj4429 no. you need a driver like the TMC4671 that supports FOC for steppers. normal stepper drivers have no foc torque mode
@@Gigawipf i cant find the one you use
where to buy that shaft adapter?to mount the Rim/wheel??
The mount was 3D printed and files are linked in the description
Do you have any photos of how you mounted the encoder on the nema 34.
The way the encoder is mounted is not perfect but if you want to have the files anyways i can send you them via the discord for example.
It depends on your motor if it can be mounted the same way.
@@Gigawipf
I would like to see. I have a nema 34 and the encoder was the part I wasn't really understanding. I would love any info I could get to make this work.
@@terryanderson2957 Okay i published the model as well. Link is in description.
Hey, Gigawipf
I absolutely loved your idea!
And about stepper as DD motors, it's not just possible, it's actually being used by SimXperience on their ACCUFORCE V1 DIY system, maybe checking their systems you can get progress from watching a different source.
Yes thats also a reason why i got into the idea with steppers intially.
It would be interesting to see what they have done to get around the limitations of steppers. They at least have the benefit of having a single motor that they can calibrate for their product.
I am still working with steppers and there are use cases where a stepper might be a good idea and but in the end for DD 3 phase servos do work better here and are smoother.
Sein in Minute 2:32 ist das gleiche für Simracing ???
His at minute 2:32 is the same for simracing ???
el de el el minuto 2:32 igual sirve para el simracing ???
Ja,Yes,Ci: I think?
where to but the white ps2 cable which you use?
Its pressed into the thrustmaster adapter so it aligns with the plug in the wheel and then its connected to the spi 2 port
how much would it be to buy one of these boards?
Can't say exact numbers at the moment because i am redesigning the motor driver and don't know the assembly cost yet. I would say for a full kit of electronics over 100€ but under 200€. But i can't promise anything yet.
Depends on the assembly cost of the motor driver and could decrease significantly if we can fund a larger batch later once its tested and stable.
Great work. Very interesting. Can't find any projects like this to connect to a playstation
Gimx
I am using a 130st motor with AASD driver and STM32, but am getting lots of high frequency noise from it and also a low pitched hum whenever the motor is resisting force. Any tips on how to get rid of this?
Would an Nema 17 stepper 40 work? I just want to play American truck simulator lol. :)
With an encoder it would "work". But the ffb won't be good or smooth. The stepper would saturate too quickly.
@@Gigawipf I guess the same way will be with a 12v DC motor, right?
Also Thank you for the quick answer.
@@sebastiancojuharii5958 DC Motor might be the better option for you. I assume budget is tight. With a dc motor you would likely get more power if chosen properly and it would be cheaper with the right driver.
@@Gigawipf Yeah, kinda tight the budget.
I was thinking about the BTS7960 Motor driver module 43A. Works great with Arduino Leonardo and from what I saw online is decent for the money you pay.
@@sebastiancojuharii5958 sure. thats fine. If you want to use our project the ffboard can interface with this driver too with the pwm pins
Hi will nema 23 work for mmos?
Only with a special foc driver and encoder and it will be very weak
@@Gigawipf it doesnt have a built-in encoder,?
@@domainexpansion6438 No steppers normally have no encoder built in.
I'm new to this and so not fully indoctrinated in to the nomenclature. Hence this video is maddening for me to watch because although you are reviewing all the things I need to learn, your accent is too strong and I cant fully understand. Ahhhh!!!
what game is this
Hi! What kind of control board is at 14:22
The FFBoard v1.0 developed for this project. There will be a new one soon with more pins.
@@Gigawipf any chance it will be available for international purchase?
@@NinhNguyen I will see what i can do. The usb board should be easy enough once the firmware is ported but for the TMC it will take some time
@@Gigawipf Awesome! Keep up the good work. I need your opinion on this. So I found this cheap chinese stepper with built-in encoder and driver, could it be use for steering wheel?
@@NinhNguyen Driver: No. Its very likely it does not support a FOC Torque mode. Thats what we use the TMC driver for.
Motor with encoder: Yes, maybe. Steppers don't provide super great FFB but with a high resolution encoder it would be possible with the TMC. The higher the encoder resolution the better.
So jetzt mal ehrlich was ist das für eine Platine oder die basisteile ich will mir auch eins direkt Drive bauen weil ich kein Bock habe 1600€ zu zahlen Stifter und Handbremse hab ich schon gebaut
Ist custom für das Projekt. im verlinkten Discord wird angekündigt falls mal ein Batch gemacht wird. Sonst sind alle Pläne auf Github. Kann aber noch etwas dauern bis wirklich was verkauft werden kann.
@@Gigawipf danke für die Antwort 👍🏻 so jetzt mal was Anderes wenn ich autoteile wie lenkwintelsensor und das auf dem lenkstock für die 0 Stellung und das FFB nehme könnte das doch hinhauen als Platine könnte man doch eine normale Servo Platine nemen die halt dem motor sagt links rechts oder nicht
@@HATZTAKEN Puh. eher nicht wenns wirklich gut sein soll. Kommt auf den Sensor an. Mit dem ffboard vielleicht wenn man entsprechende Interfaces dafür schreibt.
@@Gigawipf das kann doch nicht so kompliziert sein 🙇♂️ wenn ich mein derzeitiges Logitech G27 ansehe das teil kostete höchstens 60€ die mototen Platine Kabel das ist ein Witz
@@HATZTAKEN Das ist aber auch ganz andere hardware. DC Motor und simpler AB Encoder und fertig meine ich. Geht mit meinem Board auch komplett ohne speziellen Motortreiber. Kommt sehr auf die Hardware an. Mit digitalen Encodern oder Potentiometer statt Encoder wirds dann wieder schwieriger. Und mit Servos muss ein FOC Motortreiber her.
Very cool stuff! I knew these damn motors these companies were using werent costly. The only reason they cost more than the belt driven models is because thats the price they decided would make it seem like its harder to make when 90% of the device is already made for them...shady.
I was excited watching it, then I searched for the price of a servo motor with encoder like here in brazil and I got frustrated hahahaha.
I noticed that you had the 80ST-M02430 listed at 4.5Nm, but Simplicity used the same motor in their SW7C (sim-pli.city/products/sw7c-plus-7nm-direct-drive-wheel) and listed it at 7Nm, and the peak torque is listed at 7.1Nm here: www.cncservocontrol.com/servomotor/servomotor_8.html
I was wondering if there are different ways to measure servo torque and if that might explain the discrepancy. Also, have you ever used a belt-driven wheel and if so, how does the 80ST compare? Really considering using it for some sort of DD solution given its low weight/small size (important for me), smoothness, and integrated encoder.
Love what you're doing with this project, keep it up.
You may get those 7Nm in theory at 48V. More current = more torque. I tested in this video only up to 36V to verify and used manufacturer numbers for the rough comparison. Going this high for bursts may be possible but you are looking at pretty high currents because of the low torque coefficient of this motor. As i said i would not rule out this motor completely. It may be a good choice for some smaller or lower cost builds but you should not expect arm breaking torques.
The resistance is so high that i can't get more current through at 36V.
But i can imagine that at these levels the motor will get really hot and inefficient comprared to the larger versions.
10010 is ten thousand and ten.. one hundred ten is `110`
first: Sorry for my english
second: Congrats for this amazing project!
third: im looking for a motor beetween 80st and 130st, is good option this (MIGE 110ST-M06030) motor? spanish.alibaba.com/product-detail/1-8kw-magnet-servo-motor-manufacturer-790765670.html I mean this motor is compatible with your TMC board?
fourth: Is mandatory the brand MIGE? I found this Mophorn motor in amazon with the same specs www.amazon.com/-/es/Mophorn-110ST-M06030-Motor-servo-3000/dp/B07W5MVMRH Is a good brand Mophorn? Any reference of this brand? Thanks!
Yes both motors would be usable. You have to calculate if you get enough torque with the given resistance and voltage (48V, up to 25A) and you need an incremental encoder (or sincos, but untested). The mophorn looks identical. Probably same thing but different name.
@@Gigawipf Thanks for your answer! I have two more =) Does the MIGE 110ST-M06030 not come with an incremental encoder inside? Or you mention this for the Mophorn motor? And the second question is how to calculate the torque that I am going to get with the MIGE 110ST-M06030 (6Nm)? I mean currently I have a logitech G29 (2.1Nm), will I get at least the same torque? Thanks again!
@@thecompensator369 From mige i know that they all use a 2500cpr incremental encoder by default and on most motors you can optionally order a 10k (40k ppr) instead. YOu can use both.
Some motors can be bought at the purchase price of the finished product, they also come with pedals.
If the DIY cost is too high, let yourself go
Lass mich uns umgezogen sein ich werde mir ein Sim setup bauen und komm auf dich zurück :)
Wird auch noch etwas dauern bis der neue Motortreiber fertig ist. Kommt aber alles voran
Very excited!