Book Club | My Dark Vanessa by Kate Elizabeth Russell | March 2021
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 มี.ค. 2021
- This month’s book club pick is My Dark Vanessa by Kate Elizabeth Russell, a book which features some themes which may be triggering, so please bear this in mind. Join Melanie and I as we discuss one of the most talked about books in the last year, with brilliant thoughts and talking points from many of you via Instagram. There are spoilers from about half way through. We also reveal our book club choice for April at the end of the video. Do keep the conversation going in the comments down below. #BookClub #MyDarkVanessa #SykesAndSavidgeBookClub
If you would like to support me you can by heading here / savidgereads
My Instagram: / savidgereads
Melanie’s Instagram / msmelaniesykes
All Melanie and My Previous Book Clubs here • Sykes and Savidge Book...
Books Mentioned…
My Dark Vanessa by Kate Elizabeth Russell uk.bookshop.org/a/550/9780008...
Exciting Times by Naoise Dolan uk.bookshop.org/a/550/9781474...
Me Elsewhere...
Instagram: / savidgereads
Patreon: / savidgereads
Wishlist: www.amazon.co.uk/hz/wishlist/...
Spotify: open.spotify.com/user/2qu1l93...
Twitter: / savidgereads
Email: savidgereads@gmail.com
GoodReads: / simon - บันเทิง
She wrote this in such a way that the reader can’t help but understand how this situation could occur. It’s shocking, really, to see how easy it is for an adult to groom a child given the right sort of circumstances. I thought the way Russell was able to show the feelings many young girls have when they have a crush on or perhaps are fantasizing about a teacher, while also not really understanding the gravity of what that means, was brilliant. Teen girls often look at older men and find them attractive, but also have no real comprehension of what being with someone that much older would actually mean. The way in which his manipulation of her was detailed made my skin crawl, but is also such an important truth for us to understand. This book made me sick, ripped my heart out, punched me in the gut, and made me absolutely adore it for doing so. I felt like this book was more education and enlightenment than entertainment. For the first time ever, I felt I could fathom how this scenario happens in real life to real young women. I really do believe it’s such an important book with such an important message.
Watching this video reminded me of another aspect that I found so interesting and I think it applies to many similar situations and that is the fact that Vanessa couldn’t bear to believe it wasn’t love because if it wasn’t love then it was rape and abuse. And if it was rape and abuse then she was a victim and not in control. She struggled with admitting that what happened to her was wrong because that then meant everything she believed about herself in terms of her level of control was subsequently flipped upside down.
For me the use of Lolita in this novel was so interwoven in the story because we were in Vanessa's head. She was obsessed with Lolita and saw herself as Lolita for so much of her life. Strain gave her this book and she saw it as a manifesto for what he wanted their relationship to be. She obsessed over Lolita, to a point where even Strain noticed (and he didn't care about her at all). It feel the book was intgral in how he groomed her.
At the beginning he showed her how there relationship was 'ok' through the book, then when she is (physically) abused and she realises the reality of it was very much not ok, she falls back on the narrative of Lolita and projects Humberts love for Loita onto Strain, imagining Strains loves her. Then after the abuse, when she is dependent on Strains attention she uses the arcitipe of Lolita to try and please him. She dresses young , ties to become the perfect 'Nimphet' for him so she can live out her version of Lolita but with a 'happy ending'. Where Strain loves her and has always loved her because she feel that, in some part, him loving her would make the abuse ok. Because if he was in love, he just couldn't help it.
I feel this book is the answer to Lolita. Where Lolita dresses up child abuse and r*pe as obsessive love, from the abusers POV. This book shows you how it is nothing but an abuse of power from the victims POV. It was sickening, frustrating, insightful and cathartic for me. I both loved and hated this book.
This book was brilliant. The author puts the reader in Vanessa's head and forces us to see the situation through her point of view, which is simultaneously captivating and repulsive. Vanessa's insight into the true nature of her relationship with Strane -- the abuse, the gaslighting, the victimization, the narcissistic head trips -- is always present, even when she tries to tell herself it was really a love story. That she decides not to publicly tell her story is powerful and unexpected. I loved this book. And, as another reader commented here, it did remind me of Coetzee's Disgrace, one of my favorite books.
I think the saddest part of this book is how much Vanessa feels loved by her abuser. It was the only love she got. She was so vulnerable.
I think there’s many, many, many sad parts to this book.
I just finished listening to this today and I came straight to this video! I totally agree with you about feeling like you’re in Vanessa’s head, even though I never forgot the age gap because it was so glaring to me, especially with how the audiobook was narrated, I did find myself getting a bit lost in her mind and almost feeling manipulated via her, which was a very weird experience. Listening to it also made it feel incredibly visual and real, so all the more difficult to read. I also agree that the section with Henry feels like an example of how else abuse can manifest, and a very morally grey situation where Henry having good intentions didn’t necessarily mean that their relationship wasn’t inappropriate. Also an example of how trauma effects later relationships.
My favourite thing about it was how real Vanessa felt, and how she flipped between awareness of what had really happened, and justifying it, sometimes in the same line. That kind of mental acrobatics that comes from trauma is incredibly hard to depict because it’s not at all rational, but Russell perfectly showed how Vanessa’s thought processes worked and I thought that was brilliant
I thought she created a fascinating, vulnerable, flawed, complex character with Vanessa which I thought was deftly done. I would have struggled listening to this one I think.
I just finished this about an hour ago. I thought this novel was really well done and seems to realistically depict the grooming process abusers use to get close to their victims. I really felt how conflicted Vanessa was - she was really battling with what was right and what was wrong. It took Strane's death for his grip on her to finally loosen and for her to start healing.
Oprah Winfrey has been very open about the abuse she suffered as a girl and I'll always remember how she emphasized thay it's never a minor's fault, that it's on the adult to do the right thing. She said something to the effect that even if a girl is naked doing catwheels in front of a man, he needs to walk away. Well put!
I was really angry with the school and her parents for trying to sweep everything under the rug.
Henry was not Strane but his actions were quite questionable. I think he googled Vanessa once she told him about Strane to find out more. He shouldn't have tried to get close to a student in the first place (even with the student being an adult) but he definitely should have distanced himself from her once he knew what she had gone through/was going through.
A great book but tough to read as I have a 15 year old daughter. I would go ballistic if anything like this ever happened to her...
So many more thoughts.... thank you for this video!
Wow. Thank you for your thoughts. I think Kate Elizabeth Russell does an incredible job with this book. With all the themes that’s in it, all the emotions, all the conversations and complexities of human nature... and human horror.
Love your book discussions, don't stop. Ever.
Oh I just finished this and it was easily the most challenging book I’ve read - ever. Great conversation - thank you 👍🏻
Thank you for discussing this book, its so disturbing! Hearing you both discuss it, shifted everything that happened in this book around in my head and I really needed it. So thank you again.
Ooh interesting that it shifted everything for you. Glad you enjoyed the video.
I've just finished this book (literally within the last ten minutes) and what I appreciated about this book was that Vanessa wasn't a perfect victim. She was messy, complicated, confused, and went back-and-forth on everything: The conversations she had with Henry felt like the most honest she had been about the whole affair. And, like Melanie, I was never able to forget Strane's age throughout as Russell did a great job of dropping in physical appearance without over doing it.
Great review guys! I think it was interesting to get a male perspective and a female perspective of this book. Having gone through female teenage years myself, this book brings up all those insecure and questioning feelings around sex and sexuality. I completely agree with Melanie in regards to growing up with a kind of innocent youth through the teenage years, I appreciate it even more after reading books like this. It is interesting that Vanessa convinces herself that she was never a victim and therefore not abused. Her therapist was brilliant and I think she helped put cracks in that “not a victim” wall Vanessa has. I thought Henry was used as a way for the much older Vanessa to see subtle abuse happening to her and then questioning it as it happens and confronting Henry about it. Again, maybe forcing Vanessa to look at what Strane had actually done to her. A very uncomfortable book that stays with you! Thanks guys!
Glad you enjoyed the book club. It’s an uncomfortable read indeed. Thank you for all your thoughts. The Henry factor still puzzles me.
This must be a popular book, I'm still 4th in line at the library! Looking forward to getting it.
I’ll be interested in your thoughts when you do get to it. I’m not surprised about the queues it’s been a huge seller.
This makes me also think of J. M. Coetzee's "Disgrace", but of course in a different context.
I’ve not read that. Maybe one day. Though need a breather from this subject matter. This books left me with a book headache rather than a book hangover.
LOVED this book. It made me SO UNCOMFORTABLE, I still think about it. Loved the insights, particularly being suggestible at that age. X
Glad you enjoyed the discussion Cesca. I can’t say I loved it but I’m definitely glad I read it.
Happy Birthday Simon!
Thank you for a fabulous discussion. I tore through that book! It is so disturbing but compelling. The author did an amazing job in laying out a very inappropriate relationship but how it would seem otherwise to a young and vulnerable person.
Yes I thought Kate Elizabeth Russell handled this brilliantly.
This book was so hard to read! But so important! I think Vanessa is made to be ‘unlikeable’ on purpose - so that people understand things happen to you whether you are liked or not!!
I thought that was part of it too potentially. I’m looking forward for the Candid Book Clubs event with her. I’m hoping to get to that.
I just finished this book and found your video - easily my favourite of the series that I have watched so far, great discussion. In response to Simon’s comment about whether it seemed consensual at times and you could forget that she was a child, I actually thought that the author did a very good job of depicting Vanessa’s immaturity and the confusion and ambiguity that she felt while at the same time, being completely unambiguous in showing the reader the reality - the grooming, what made her a target, the reactions of people around her especially as she got older, how he manipulated her but actually he initiated the whole thing.
The unlikeability thing: I think that is about how we need our victims to look and behave a certain way. I thought that the author’s approach certainly invites our empathy and compassion for Vanessa, even as we want her to make different choices.
Henry: I read it as her reading more into the relationship because of her prior experience. I didn’t quite know what to make of him marrying his student but she was at university so it wasn’t quite the same thing, and they were married so hopefully it was not like Strane who kept the relationship going to keep her quiet and continued to prey on high school students. But it does show how fine the line is between “acceptable” and not, as your Britney Spears video comments also attest to.
Thanks for making this video, very helpful after such a disturbing reading experience.
Thanks for all your thoughts on the book. It’s lovely when people discover these videos and then share their takes. Fascinating to see how books can be read so variedly and differently.
Great discussion between the two of you. I agree with you Simon. I can’t say that I enjoyed the experiencing of reading My Dark Vanessa but I think it’s an important and time,y book. Also, how’s clever if you to have chosen a Women’s Prize longlisted book for your next read!
Clever or just obvious hahahaha. Glad you enjoyed the discussion. It’s also a Dylan Thomas longlistee. I’m really tempted to read that shortlist. It’s announced on Thursday.
I halted reading this as I want to read The Woman’s Longlist but, this has wet my appetite to get back.
I remember reading a proof of this round about the time that Finding Neverland came out. A common criticism of Wade Robson was that he had already gone on record and testified that he hadn't been abused. Regardless of what you think about MJ and the allegations made against him, this book illustrated to me perfectly the mindset of grooming victims who truly believe they love the predator grooming them and the length of time it can take someone to come to terms with the fact that what happened to them was wrong and to admit to themselves (and to others) that it was abuse. Very well discussed.
I got very confused and had to go and look it up, it’s Leaving Neverland you mean I am guessing. I don’t want to comment on real cases (legalities) but this is an unflinching account of grooming and the continued affects of trauma.
Yeah Leaving Neverland sorry. No I totally get avoiding specifics for legal reasons and I wouldn't comment myself on the allegations and their validity. More so the criticisms surrounding it and more generally how we pick apart victims. Reading this made me realise that as a society we really do have a lot to learn about grooming and the way victims process it. And this is what I love about fiction, as well as being a tool for escapism it can also teach us so much about human experience and empathy ❤
I also thought it was really interesting how she says that if she admits that it's rape, that she will have to think of herself as a victim and that she doesn't want to redefine her life that way
Yes I thought that was interesting to. Also the degrees or variants of rape in her mind and how she defines it, or doesn’t.
Thank you both. Really well discussed.
A pleasure. It was even more discussed IRL. We talked about it for 80 mins lol. So much to say about this book!
@@SavidgeReads I so agree. I also completely agreed about the intertexuality. I felt it was a reflection of the intensity of the grooming rather , but sometimes was a little self-indulgent. But that was really the only thing that jarred and even then only a little.
That and one other thing that got cut... the amount of times I read ‘dishwasher blonde hair’.
@@SavidgeReads forgot about that!
This is the kind of book that I agree is important, but one I know I can't stomach to read, so I appreciate I was able to find out its broad strokes here (as it's so much a part of the cultural conversation). It reminds me a lot of (another one I read all about and considered the implications and angles and discussions it starts, without watching the actual movie) 2018's The Tale. Which is based on a real story, and one where the woman (who I believe is actually later an English teacher) grapples as she realizes a past relationship (she had when she was a young teen, maybe even 13) with a coach was abuse, really struggles to frame it that way, feeling that it took away her agency (and obviously, from an outsider's perspective, so she can protect herself). It'd be an interesting pairing with this, and I believe even involves the adult her talking to kid her. That story could be incredibly frustrating bc while you obviously feel compassion for her, in interviews later the real person maintained she'd never name him and clearly still cant let go of the 'I was singled out bc I was special' groomed mindset (easily dismissing people who asked if she thought she shouldve come forward/name him in case there were other victims, adamantly insisting there definitely weren't other victims). It clearly burrows deep.
Oooh I’ve not heard of The Tale. Though might not look it up for a while as I’ve needed a breather from books full stop after this one, let alone anything book or tv wise around the same themes. But I’ve noted the recommendation for when I do. Thank you.
@@SavidgeReads I can totally understand that. Definitely also worth noting (in case they dont include a disclaimer about this at the beginning of the film), that an adult body double was used for any [underaged] sex scene[s]. Feel like that's super important to note (to keep from being too traumatized as a watcher and just as a kind of "out" for yourself, like when you wake up from a bad dream, as I'm guessing with movie magic it will look quite real).
In my opinion Henry is there to show what happens when an adult actually stops himself from pursuing his lust. Because even though he is flawed and he favorites Vanessa, he never uses her unlike Strane. There is always that invisible wall between them, and that wall is put up by Henry
So Henry is Strane who acts like an adult.
That’s interesting. I didn’t feel like that with his Googling her and then finding Strane. That seemed to me to be a bit much. A bit too much interest in her, and then he accuses her of coming on strong. I was confused by him.
Bugger! I missed it 😥
Nah. It’s there forever and it wasn’t live. I just did a premiere.
Just joined...does this contain spoilers?
Yes. From about midway. I need to add that I. The description.
Great discussion. I listened to this on audiobook. The narrator did a brilliant job but it was such a hard listen at times.
I can imagine that’s a tough audiobook. I don’t think I would want it in my ears. It was hard enough with my eyes.
Interesting discussion regarding Nabokov, "don't stand so close to me." Teachers need to be charged, not just fired like it was in the old days. Sounds similar to Amy and Isabelle by Elizabeth Strout, which was also disturbing.
I’ve not read any Strout. I don’t think I want to read anything similar to this for a while. Hahaha. The riffing off Lolita was a bit much for me. Though in the acknowledgment Russell talks about her relationship with that book. There was just too many nods for me.
@@SavidgeReads Olive Kitteridge was her big success story, Amy and Isabelle was her debut novel in the nineteen-nineties. She is a fine writer, but yes it too was a difficult read about the grooming.
Oh I’ve heard of her, I wanted to go and see My Name is Lucy Barton on stage in NYC even though I’ve not read the book. Ha.
I'm watching the video now cuz I love your discussions. I got the book from the library but decided not to read it. The theme is disturbing so I skipped it. Nevertheless, it is a book that will be important for some readers..
I think it’s really important that I read books that take me completely outside my comfort zone and yet in the comfort of our own homes.
Should have given a spoiler warning ⚠️ 😢
Sorry it was a book club video so we talked about every element of the books in those videos. I thought we have warnings in everyone. Sorry!