On the Office Ladies Podcast Jenna talked about how her and John fought HARD to keep Jim & Pam faithful through the years even when the writers wanted to write infidelity into their relationship. I think that’s beautiful and shows that they, on a deep level, knew their characters better than anyone else. I just love that story.
With the kiss, it’s also worth noting that Pam had told him no just ten minutes earlier. And even at that moment, she was confused and on the spot. So yes, Jim kissing her was a dick move. He’s a generally good person and a fun character, but it was a dick move.
I think it's not a dick move. It's been 10 minutes and we didn't see what happened in those. I kinda always felt like it was implied that something happened in the 10minutes where she told him 'yes' and they maybe already kissed
@@stvia based on what she’s saying to her mom, though, I don’t get the impression she changed her mind and was suddenly all in. She seems conflicted on the phone. And after the kiss, regardless of whether or not she wanted it, she still says no.
@@stvia what happened in those 10 minutes was clearly implied. Jim headed out of the parking lot took a walk and Pam went to call her mom. If it's not a clear yes then it's a clear no
I was engaged to a guy who I had a similar relationship to as Pam and Roy. We weren't happy but we weren't unhappy, we just were together for so long that it just seemed like the next step and he was pretty neglectful, got jealous easily, etc but overall, was not a horrible boyfriend. We got engaged and one of my guy friends pulled a Jim, sans kiss. He had this poem written about me and we ended up talking the entire night. I broke off my engagement the next day. I didn't end up with the guy, we didn't date or anything, but he opened my eyes enough to see that I deserved someone who had passion for me and made me happy and alive, and that I could make someone feel that way too. It was one of the best decisions I had made because a few years later, I met my husband who I am celebrating 10 years of marriage with in September. Last I heard, my ex is married with some kids to a woman who makes him happy. All worked out in the end. I don't think Jim should have kissed her, however sometimes telling someone how you feel when you see that they are in a relationship that is clearly not too happy or promising may be the kick in the butt that they need.
awww, i love your story!! It almost sounds scripted :) you really do be a main character in a TV show haha. It's so awesome that things worked out for the better in the end :) I have a question tho: you said you only met your current husband a few years after this decision. Were those 'inbetween' years hard for you? Did it ever feel like you were in a season of endless waiting or hopelessness, or were you okay in that regard. I'm really interested to what ur answer might be
I was also in a similar situation. I was married though, to a not great husband and it wasn't until I met my best friend that I realized I deserved so much more. I think the morale of the story is life is complicated and we are all just trying to figure things out. I'm so glad things worked out for you. I am so much happier now myself, but am at the very beginning of this new chapter, so we'll see where life takes me :)
@@funfings842 to answer your question- no. I was honestly really happy being single. It was the first time I was single in a very long time, so I reconnected with friends, spent more time with family, worked 2 jobs, and went to a trade school. It was great. That's when it clicked to me that I made the right decision.
@@Revy181 yeah, you know you really have to do what's right for you. I've seen so many people stay in unhappy marriages just because they're married or they think the other person needs them or whatever other excuse but what is life if you're not happy? I'm proud of you for taking that step, it's not easy. Good luck to you in your new chapter!
Verbally expressing was fine but that kiss never should have happened. I wish men would ask more. They may be surprised at the answer and as a woman I definitely find asking to be kissed more romantic, but sometimes when you’re in love you don’t make logical decisions 😉 “We are all fools in love.” ~Jane Austen
I actually think that telling her was not appropriate either. Think about it, for the entirety of those two seasons WE KNOW he has a major crush on her. He has had t ime before she was engaged to tell her that. Yes, there was the risk of it being awkward between the two of them if she wasn't interested, but they could have gone back to being friends after some short period of time has passed. But noooooo, this had to be prolonged and dramatized. Jim, I'd argue, is not a "nice guy" stereotype because I don't feel like he ever felt entitled to Pam just for being nice to her and being her friend. That's good writing! BUT, there's that pining and longing which no man could have endured unless he's a serious masochist. Also, why did he have to arrive at her getting engaged to think "now is the time!". Did it never occur to him that if he doesn't get her, someone else will?! How did he react to the thought of that?! I think for him to be in love with her that way and still not act on it was ... Odd. In real life, if she was engaged, she'd marry the guy she's engaged to , not dump him for her friend who decided to spring this on her last minute. Her initial rejection in this scene would be her final decision. It's not fair for anyone to dump this on another person.
I had a friend tell me how they felt, and I wasn't ready, but knew they would be receptive. And one day I made the move. One of the best kisses in my life. Most guys are in too much of a hurry
No, if I were engaged and someone pulled this with me, I would feel so uncomfortable and like they don't respect my relationship. I never plan on getting married but that does not invalidate or diminish my years long relationship. With Jim and Pam, it seems okay because it's written in a way that makes us more comfortable with it. Pam was in a relationship that was bad for her, but if Roy and Pam were happy and comfortable then more people would think Jims in the wrong here.
I agree. I will just quickly throw my 2 cents in - I think that even if it seems that two people are in a bad relationship, that doesn't validate someone from the outside chiming in and making things unnecessarily complicated. I feel like staying in your lane and waiting out appropriately for them to be out of said relationship is the most moral thing to do. I am speaking through personal experience.
I agree with you and disagree with John diminishing the weight of a non married couple. First time I really dislike something he says and I don't know how to feel about it.
@@hannahmalaran Yeah, for me the line is living together. A commitment is a commitment, for as long as it lasts. A conversation as friends (like, how are you in your life,/how are you with Roy, are you happy,I really do care about you being happy) would be equally romantic and sweet. And opens the door to the other person if they want to get closer.
Okay, so maybe the kiss was inappropriate, BUT I think you didn't notice the conversation that Pam was having with her mom. Her mom is asking her "are you in love with him". Pam says "I think I am" and right there Jim appears, he was just overwhelmed by the emotion of hearing an almost complete love confession, and so he kisses her. I only noticed this detail after a lot of rewatches and I found it so heartwarming.
He can't hear the other end of the convo? She could've been asked are you hungry or are you cold, point is, I don't think you could presume that his reaction was to her conversation
@@bugweasel it was pretty obvious, she called her mom from her office in the middle of the night, and she was talking to her about what had just happened with Jim. He was listening from before, because he only (and instantly) appeared when Pam said "I think I am". Yes, maybe he didn't hear the important part of the conversation, but that chance is very slim given his attitude and the way the whole scene is made
Even though Pam may not have physically cheated on Roy, she did emotionally cheat on him with Jim. I tend to have to play Devils advocate when it comes to Pam because even though Roy was awful to her, she chose to use Jim as an outlet rather than address her true feelings and problems with Roy. Jim did well to tell her when he did about how he felt, but I don't think he should have kissed her. She clearly was having doubts and maybe even admitted to her mom that she felt the same way, he should have just told her and given her time. But as we know he was ready to move if things didn't go his way - which was somewhat of an unfair ultimatum for Pam, but understandable for him to move on.
I’d be interested in seeing a therapized video on Walt and Skyler from Breaking Bad and one on Jimmy McGill (Saul Goodman) and Kim Wexler from Better Call Saul.
Saul and Kim would be great!! (My fiancé and I can't figure out if they're a-sexual together or what.) Walt and Skylar, ooof! Doesn't he kind of rape her and turn their marriage into a hostage situation? A bit dark for this channel... But... Saul and Kim definitely!!
Another question that I think should be addressed is did she ever emotionally cheat on Roy with Jim? Like throughout their friendship, she would confide with Jim more than she ever did with Roy.
Even a better one, did she have sexual thoughts about Jim? The way The Office is done would never make it possible for us to know if she had those thoughts. I think she did. Her rejection here is fueled by the fact that she's aware where she's at with Roy. I personally thought she had an eye for Jim, for a long time. You like the person you spend most of your time with, just a thought.
Friendship isn't cheating. Sometimes women tell their best friends things they don't tell their husbands. Only because the world is so heteronormative, people have an issue if that friend is of the opposite sex. But it should be treated the same. Just because a woman is hetero, doesn't mean she will have feelings for every guy she's close with. I'm queer and I almost never see my female friends in a romantic or sexual way, especially my best friend 😁
Telling her is fine. Kissing her is not. Pam is 100% not in the wrong and not a cheater for kissing him back in the moment, she pushes him away once her mind catches up with what’s happening.
I feel like there's more to it than just this episode though. Jim had heard when Pams mum came in the office and was specifically asking which one he was and Pams giddy response. Everyone could see that Pam was not super happy in her relationship with Roy. There were so many moments leading up to this where Pam seemed conflicted and seemed to share intimate moments with Jim. I feel like the story could have been told without him kissing her and she would have made the same decision to leave Roy but adding that scene in adding more thematically and added drama for the next season. Not every relationship is the same and we shouldn't base out actions and expectations around scripted moments
I respect your opinion Jono, same time when someone is any form of committed relationship, my opinion is that the person is allowed to share their true feelings, BUT when they try to COURT THEM in any shape or form, that is disrespect towards that person and their current partners.
agree, and I do not see the difference between married and commited . . . maybe I am not christian enough for that, but comitted is commited and overstepping there is always disrespectful
If you know someone is in relationship, even it's a best friend, It's best to walk away. It's better to see a situation isn't ideal instead of being in the middle of it.
Truth. Seeing a lot of people that say Roy wasn't great, but here's the thing, who's Jim to determine what's great or not for Pam? Irl even if Roy was fantastic, Jim would still try to pick him apart because he wants Pam.
I think that everyone in this love triangle did things that were wrong. Pam was very obviously flirting with Jim multiple times, so for her to say that Jim “misinterpreted their friendship” was totally wrong and unfair. Roy obviously is a dick, there isn’t really much to add. And Jim kissed Pam even though she rejected him. I do like Jim’s and Pam’s relationship but I think everyone is partially at fault for creating this situation
I think it makes sense for Pam to deny flirting with Jim, just because in that moment she really wanted to deny accountability and definitively shut down Jim's advances, so giving him any hope of reciprocation would potentially make that more difficult. But 100% she SHOULD take accountability for it. It's not fair to Jim to say it was all in his head if it wasn't. So she should acknowledge to him that she did flirt and then she should apologize for leading him on and she should not continue to flirt with him. Of course they kiss after this and so everything gets a bit more complicated but I'd say if the second scene hadn't happened, after the initial natural reaction in the first scene she should later talk to Jim and do what I said above.
I’m a little mixed on this. I do agree that Pam could have acknowledged flirting, but she really was put on the spot. Also, flirting absolutely does not have to mean leading someone on or emotionally cheating or any of that. I get everyone has their own opinions, but it’s not like Jim was completely unaware of Pam’s serious relationship. It’s possible she suspected he had more serious feelings for her, and it’s possible she had been aware of her own serious feelings for him for awhile, but I don’t think that necessarily puts her at fault for how she interacted with him. They had a good groove and it was harmless, and it could very easily had stayed that way if both of them chose not to pursue it.
@@English3Muffin All we can see throughout the series is Jim trying to cope with his painful addiction to Pam. What shown in that particular scene is Jim nomore being able to block out those feelings. The whole thing is about him cracking up and taking his lost shot after long time struggling keeping all inside. So you say he could easily just not evolve what was happening between them? No, he just couldn't.
I think that's a really blurry line. Engaged doesn't equal married.. sure but, why? You can't use a blanket statement like that for every situation. Engaged is a "commitment to commit", I disagree. There's a million reasons why a couple might wait to get married for a long period (like maybe they have to save up for the big ceremony of their dreams, or they're disabled and can't afford to lose their disability check yet) but that doesn't mean their commitment to each other isn't any less strong or valid then the couple that flew down to Vegas the weekend after the proposal 'because they just couldn't wait!' Was it clear that pam was unhappy with her relationship.. yes. Does that mean Jim's actions were morally sound... No. Ultimately pam should have extricated herself from the unhappy relationship first. But fear of loneliness and patriarchal societal expectations are a real b*tch. Jim NEVER should have kissed her. If a friend did that to me, they wouldn't be a friend.
While it was wrong for Jim to kiss her, without her consent and put her on the spot, I will defend Pam and Jim with these two points. First, if Jim hadn't done this, Pam has the personality in the first couple of seasons of taking mistreatment from Roy and other characters. She probably would have married Roy and spent many more years of receiving the bare minimum (being left at hockey games, no valentines gifts, no help in wedding planning, etc.), accepting this as her normal. Second, Roy proved time and time again that he was not a safe person for Pam to be vulnerable towards. While it is Pam's responsibility to maintain her happiness and well-being, she didn't take a chance on herself until after this crucial moment. And who knows, maybe she sought therapy in between seasons 2 and 3, off camera.
I think that's the writers deliberately making the second guy seem worse so that the first one would seem great despite his questionable choices and actions. Another similar situation was Carrie and John on sex and the city. If you actually go to the YT video of the end of that series the comments read something like "They actually had to make the other guy physically abusive in order for this one to look better". Yeah, that's pretty bad. Justifyibg toxicity with "Well it could have been more toxic" is pretty bad.
@@samf.s8786 I tried to come at it from this angle of “if this was real life”. Television in every aspect is not perfection and ebbs and flows with the times. But if you want women to settle for more toxicity, then good for you
I don’t think this counts as Pam cheating, but the way she explained it to Roy made it sound like she cheated. Instead of saying “Jim kissed me,” she said “I kissed Jim.” She made it sound like the whole thing was her idea
As someone who is divorced, it is so much easier to leave an engagement than it is a marriage. Even an easy divorce involves hundreds of dollars of legal fees and court dates and a 6 month minimum wait. I wish I would have canceled my wedding instead of filed for divorce
Comparative ease of leaving =/= comparative morality of leaving either. Those are two different discussions. Your personal and potentially religious beliefs will influence what you feel about the latter, legalities and pragmatism define the first.
I'm good with Jim admitting his feelings since Pam was still engaged. But I don't agree with a sneak attack kiss. I was in Jim's place once. I was pretty sure the feelings weren't returned, but I had say something. I told him I didn't expect anything to change, and we could still be friends. He later went on to date one of my best friends (who didn't know I had feelings for him), and that really sucked, but I don't regret letting him know.
I agree that Jim hadn't done anything inappropriate by telling her he had feelings for her. Pam and Roy's relationship isn't his - it's up to Pam to enforce her relationship's boundaries, whatever they are. I don't think it was appropriate for him to walk up and kiss her though. Not because I think she didn't want it, but he couldn't have known she was consenting. She told him no a few minutes earlier, and then he interrupted her words without even looking at her for any type of body language consent. Didn't like that part. But I don't necessarily side-eye Jim for not respecting Pam's relationship with Roy. I think if Pam were giving all the signals that she was willing to cross her relationships' boundaries, that's on her, not Jim.
Thing is about Jim, he had two whole seasons to tell Pam how he feels, and he waited. He knew he wanted her, and he waited. IRL nothing would probably be wrong with Roy, and she'd pick Roy.
Honestly, my take is that there was emotional infidelity for years. If my husband had a relationship with someone like the one Jim and Pam had, I’d be heartbroken, furious, and I’d feel utterly betrayed. That’s not to say I don’t think he can have close friends of any sex or gender. Heck, he should have more! Friends are fantastic, but you shouldn’t have romantic feelings towards people who are just your friends.
Yes you would be jealous but it happens all the time in the workplace whether you are aware of it or not. Most arent ! The term work husband/wife is very real. This is basically what Jim and Pam were but Jim wanted more and Pam enjoyed the attention. Is it wrong - probably - but like most humans we dont get it right all the time unless you are perfect. This is why Pam and Jim are so relatable and not forgettable like most TV couples!
Be careful with having friends of opposite gender. It sound nice and dandy and politically correct but humans behavior says otherwise. Just a word of caution
I would love love LOVE to see you cover Pam and Roy! There is a plethora of red flags and so many people I see in discussions say "whoof, that was me in a bad relationship" - I think covering that would be great to help others see the red flags too! (Touching on why Pam gravitated to Jim even while engaged would be a nice perspective to have too!)
I had a friend tell me her marriage was more real than my relationship with my son's dad. Well... about 3 months later, she ended up starting an affair... marriage does not mean the relationship is more real than a non-married relationship. My marriage was a lot shorter than the non-married relationship with my son's father. It's all about the commitment.
I’ve been in a similar situation. Only I was the single friend and my *married* friend kissed me with no warning. I was so shocked I didn’t know how to act. I remember backing away but kissing back because I didn’t know how to leave the situation w/o causing a scene with my best friend. It was awful. We were flirty, but I made it very clear I respected his relationship and liked his wife, and that was always our understanding. I guess until it wasn’t. Our friendship didn’t last after that. I felt gross and so guilty. (Side note: hard lesson learned about who to be flirty with. I’ve had safe work flirts before but he was the last.) So I agree, for tv, it was definitely a squee moment, but in real life, that was really inappropriate and could have seriously backfired on Jim. Regardless of how Pam felt about him, putting her in that spot was completely unfair and out of line.
How terrible. I'm glad that person is out of your life, but it sounds like he kissed you without your consent, which is assault. I'm so sorry that happened to you, and I feel compelled to tell you neither him doing that, nor you losing touch with them afterwards was your fault.
@@ufink point taken, depending on where she lives, that event may be more likely categorized as sexual battery if she didn’t feel physical pain. In my state, it is sexual assault. But the fact remains, this happened without her consent and caused some trauma in her life. We shouldn’t trivialize that.
@@LovethosePNWVibes Sounds like you’re still projecting. Nobody is trivializing her story. But I also think it’s dangerous when people try to tell people they’ve been traumatized when you’re not intimately involved in the situation.. Leave that to her therapist and family and friends..
@@ufink well, every definition I ever got for sexuall assault is touch of sexuall nature like kissing without both consenting to it and that is plain what she said in the original comment. But If you go by bible standarts, where it is not rape, if he later pays the womans father and marries her, then sexuall assault does not exist as a concept at all . . . .
There’s also one episode where Pam realizes that Jim likes her. This is before he confessed. Sure she brushed it off before the end but she did know. And she continues with him knowing what may happen
I don’t think it matters what stage of a relationship two people are, what matters is how healthy and loving the relationship is. Roy was not good to Pam and she turned to Jim to make up for it. The kiss was inappropriate!
I think this is the writers putting Roy down to make Jim more golden and shiny. Truth is, that's not how it would have happened irl. Pam is an adult in a committed relationship with Roy, who's to interfere and say Roy is bad for her if she hasn't expressed that she desires to leave? Or that he physically hurt her? Unless a person's life is in danger, or they want to leave for no reason other than the partner being toxic, someone like Jim who stands to benefit a lot from the relationship ending should not interfere.
I agree and disagree. I think there are some people who would say, “I’ve had enough” and just leave and then there are people that need another reason to leave because they’re scared of being on their own or they need someone to help them realize that their relationship is toxic or whatever the case may be.
@@samf.s8786 not necessarily... I think Pam got very "comfortable" (aka not wanting change) in the relationship with Roy. From my perspective, he was not a good boyfriend/fiancee - I do not remember seeing one redeeming thing about him. I think Pam became jaded over time and it took the friendship (or however you want to address it) with Jim to realise that things could be better.
I basically agree with your opinion. The show makes it clear to us that Roy isn't good for Pam and that she isn't really happy with him. And I think her getting as close to Jim as she does is largely down to her seeking out the attention and support that Roy doesn't give her. I think by this point in the series, even Pam herself is aware that she enjoys being with Jim more than she enjoys being with Roy, but she isn't yet ready to leave Roy. That's understandable. She's invested years of her life in that relationship and even reached the point where she believed she could marry Roy. Of course she's not going to just toss that out the window the minute she has feelings for someone else. I think what upset Pam most about Jim's confession is that it kind of forced the moment of decision on her. It forced her to choose whether to maintain the status quo or upend her whole life. That's not an easy choice, and certainly not one that she should be expected to make within a few seconds. I think Jim should have told her his feelings and then told her he didn't expect her to take any action or make any response, as Jono said. She needed time to process her own feelings--which is clearly what she was doing while speaking to her mom, a trusted confidante. If Jim had just given her the space to think deeply about what she really wanted, I think she still would have chosen him, but coming up and kissing her while she was still in the midst of working that out was just further forcing the matter. It's like he was trying to force her hand instead of let her make her own decision, and that's a big part of why it's a pretty dick thing too.
This series is great! I’m watching New Girl and just saw an interesting conversation between Nick and Winston about how Nick has borrowed thousands of dollars over the years and never pays it back (season 1, episode 16). I wonder if you could analyze how they navigate this conflict, and offer any guidance for friends and especially roommates who have financial debt between them. I’d love to hear some tips for how to navigate that situation!
Tbh this situation is easy to understand in context, Pam was lying when she said he misinterpreted her, Jim was shooting his shot, and Roy was awful to her. Everyone’s a dick in this situation and this was the catalyst for them to all find happiness. Also peeps saying it was SA like y’all he stopped the moment she pushed him away, if she had wanted to stop him immediately she could’ve, instead she leaned in and enjoyed it for a moment.
"You're in love with somebody, and they're already in a relationship. Do you shoot your shot, or let it be?" Normally, just let it be, but if the relationship is abusive and wrong all around and the abused can't get out of it no matter how hard they try, then you gotta run interference Otherwise, just let it be
I dont think Jim is in a position to judge Pam and Roy's relationship. When you're in love with someone in a relationship you see all the flaws in that relationship and think about all the ways you wouldn't make those same mistakes. So if you know you're not seeing a situation clearly because you're so emotionally invested all you can do is what Jim does which is ask yourself "What do I need to be ok and how can I express that while doing as little harm as possible?" (Kiss was still wrong tho)
I was married when my now husband first told me he loved me. My relationship with my ex-husband had turned into a horrifically abusive one (I am disabled because of it), and I was ready to give up on life. I had been isolated from most people in my life and felt pretty alone. My current husband and I were friends, but he, like everyone else who knew me, had no idea what was going on. He discovered it one day when he noticed bruises around my neck when my scarf slipped. Until that moment, he never planned on telling me how he felt. It took time for me to let myself feel anything and to let myself believe I was worthy of being loved, but his love saved me. Literally.
@@swatisaini6447 I am, thank you. My current husband and I are about to celebrate our 6th wedding anniversary. He is the sweetest, kindest person in the world.
@@mashzapotato I think he is because even though he was in love with her, he was her best friend. Jim shoot his shot because she’s happier around him and he can tell. He was in love with her for years but he wasn’t blindly in love, he never talked shit about Roy to her nor did he ever encourage her to think differently about him. The kiss was a last time effort because even though she’s engaged to Roy, you can’t deny that she is mutually attracted to Jim.
I've always found the Frasier and Lilith relationship in Frasier interesting. Post divorce, and yeah the family sometimes aren't nice to her, but when you watch them interact together you can see the friendship there. E.g. in one ep, Frasier asks her if she and her new husband got the gift basket he sent them.
@@LovedayJourno I think it was also great that Lilith also made sure that Frasier was included in the raising of their son Freddy and that she didn't just cut him off from their child entirely. She has even acknowledged that he is a good dad, which I think is very healthy for a divorced couple and not something you often see done so respectfully. They worked together to get him into a prestigious school and everything. Heck, she even traveled to Seatle because she wanted another child and determined that Frasier's genetics would be the most ideal and desirable.
@@michelleburk2536 the ep where they work together on an article because they were ultimately being manipulated by Freddy is a good demonstrate of that :)
I would love to see you therapize the relationship between Julianne Potter (Julia Roberts) and Michael O'Neal (Dermot Mulroney) in My Best Friends Wedding.
Pick me, choose me, let me make you happy! Yeah, that speech is for the ages, for all the wrong reasons of course! 🤣 Who tells a guy who's about to get married to "like drop that" in order to go back to a person who rejected them time and time again and literally treated them as "their casual friend with benefits". Like, that guy was strung along for years of his life, and the minute she realized "uh oh! I think I can't live without him" she actively attempts to sabotage his wedding. So desperate! My favorite line is actually this one: "And who's running after you? No body!". Edit: Was also fun seeing "the cool girl" actually wonder why a guy is dumping her for another "more girly/ generic beauty" one. Gee I don't know Jules, maybe it's because she loves him and makes him feel great when he's with her?
Yeah, Pam cheated for kissing him back. She should have been honest with herself about her feelings for Jim (and her unhappiness with Roy, which was a preexisting issue because Roy was a jerk). And Jim should have honored Pam’s no. He crossed a line, big time. Their love story would have been healthier and more honoring of themselves, each other, and Roy if Jim had made his disclosure and then let Pam make the call. Still love Jim and Pam, agree that their story was beautiful, and loved this video :)
I know Hallmark movies aren't universally liked or considered the creme de la creme, but one that I think illustrates an appropriate approach to a similar situation is a "Godwink Christmas," the first one. I agree with your take, Jono!
I would also say Pam did cheat, just by kissing him back. If I was in a relationship with someone & someone else kissed me & I didn’t feel anything at all for that person who just invaded my space & forced a kiss on me, I’d stop it immediately, I would have backed away, pushed away, whatever it took, but here, Pam doesn’t pull away immediately. Maybe she was shocked at first, but you could literally see her lift her hands to the sides of his face, she reciprocated the kiss. Even if she didn’t make the first move, even if it was just for a few seconds, she reciprocated it. I don’t think cheating is just physical either, but emotional too. Once you start daydreaming about someone else other than your partner, you imagine what life would be like with someone else, you spend so much time with the opposite sex wether it be at work, or in other non related work settings & it’s just the two of you, thats when I would consider it emotional cheating & I think Pam did cheat & it was evident that long before Jim kissed her, she already had feelings for him although she was engaged to Roy.
I agree with everything you said 100%. She didn't engage the kiss; yes she reacted in the moment, but she pushed him away once her brain caught up to the situation. Yes he should have told her then before it was too late, but the kiss was unwarranted (but possibly necessary for her to finally shit or get off the pot)
I would love to see you react to the fight between Jesse and Celine in the 2013 movie "Before Midnight". I think is such an intense and realistic scene that shows mature people in a commited relationship having some serious problems and in my opinion doing some heavy accusations. I don't know I would just love to see your take on them. Btw, amazing video as always☺️
I'm going to have to disagree here. I get that Jim telling Pam he loves her when she's in an obviously unhappy relationship makes it more digestible for the audience, but I think it's only somewhat acceptable because Pam is not happy and everyone knows it, not because she's "only" engaged. A commitment is a commitment, regardless of marriage or engagement or anything. I want to get married at some point, but for now, I'm just in a happy and healthy relationship with someone I'm very much in love with, and I wouldn't appreciate someone shooting their shot with me or my boyfriend, just because we're not married. It's a fine line to walk, and Jim was still wrecking a household, even if they were not married.
This! It def would've been different if Pam was happy in the relationship, married, engaged or not. I think that Jim added up all of the factors - the years long engagement and the emotional neglect - and come to the conclusion that the relationship was as rocky as ever, and that this was his shot. Though I did find Michael's "engaged ain't married" comment funny, I did find it a bit weird in terms of marriage being the thing that suddenly takes you off the market.
I think I’d agree with you if the long engagement wasn’t such a theme that Pam was clearly unhappy with. I think the reason Jim thinks he has a chance is because Roy never actually finalised the engagement. If it were a shorter engagement, they were clearly happy together and actively planning a wedding that they were both excited about, I would absolutely agree with you.
I think Jim decided to tell her because he did it for himself. The whole unrequited love trope. If I don't tell her, then I will never know what could have been... That's selfishly motivated. relationships also go through waves of ups and downs and we often don't know the whole picture. Pam was unhappy in a relationship that she decided to stay committed to. That's on her. If Roy wasn't treating her in a kind and loving way, she needed to realize that for herself. I think it's very important to have friends of the opposite sex for this reason. Your friends love you regardless; where relationships often pigeon hole you or there's a lot of unmet expectations that can be toxic. It's definitely a whole other dynamic. But in reality, Jim decided to tell her before it was too late for his window to be closed. Because he wanted her... But in order for him to want her, he is wishing for her own heartache. That's not loving nor kind.. Yes, maybe the relationship isn't the greatest between Pam and Roy but there's a form of emotional entanglement still.
I love the Office to probably an unhealthy degree, but shhhh. Anyway, no, Pam didn't cheat. Jim kissing her without her consent (if this had been in real life) was a jerk move. But for the show, I squeeeeed as much as anyone else. I think the writers (and cast) were very honest in their portrayal of Pam and Jim as flawed imperfect human beings who did their best and sometimes fell short. As we saw in Season 3, the kiss did not lead to them getting together immediately. And I feel like that's a very real outcome of a situation like this.
all of this makes sense, very good advice! if I were Jim, I would tell her while resecting the situation without being a total nice gu, since pam is engaged (also, good definition)
Hey Mr. Decker and Mended Light, great video as usual 🔥. Would you consider reacting to therapy scenes in the Netflix series "Never Have I Ever"? I'm confused because some call it good therapy and some don't. I'm very much interested to hear your take on the scenes
Telling her he wanted to be with her was OK, kissing her right after that was not. IRL, I would see Jim as someone in a bad place who crossed a line because he felt desperate. He thinks Pam wants him back and wants out of the relationship, and he's giving her an out, but that's just a lie to get what he wants. I've been in this exact situation, and it's such a sickening feeling when you have to tell he person you've been thinking about to walk away because now they've put you in a moral bind. In my case, we never recovered from it. I wish he would have told me how he felt and then gave me some space to think about it.
I've never seen The Office, but I've seen enough about it to know the synopsis. I agree 100% with your judgements: Jim wasn't inappropriate in telling her at that point, but he was wrong to kiss her. And Pam didn't cheat. I just wish he had been brave enough to tell her before she got engaged.
A guy I was friends with and had had a crush on when we first met told me he'd always liked me when I announced my engagement. I turned him down and felt a bit weird about our friendship for awhile
did he do right by telling her? yes WITH the addition of no expectations from her. Additionally, if she rejected this advance and wanted to end the friendship, he should have respected that too. I think it is necessary for people to be in the clear on their feelings when there's a potential factor - like here where she is engaged but not married. How a person views marriage and engagement does play into this though. I agree that approaching a married person is not cool, but I also agree that some marriages are not cool. I would say, as adults, people need to be honest but appropriately so. AND even more important - honest with themselves. Do you actually have feelings for some one, or is it the moment, is it the situation, is it the environment etc.? I have been on the receiving and giving end of similar situations (though not with engaged people) and have no romantic relation ship currently, I have kept some friendships I have ended some. But I have also lived through this the very hard way, and been though a lot of therapy to reach the point of understanding my feelings and another person's choice (and vice versa). We all have a choice, and sometimes we will pick incorrectly as to what to do, but respect and honestly go a long way in any outcome.
You should do the relationships in Once Upon a Time! The romantic ones like Captain Swan, Prince Charming and Snow White, etc. or you could do the family relationship. Emma and Regina coparenting. Forgiveness. Redemption. So much to unpack in that show!!
I would love to see you cover, here or on Cinema Therapy with Alan, the movie “The Wedding Plan” (Rama Burshtein, 2016 - available on Prime Video). Your perspectives as a therapist and filmmaker (respectively) and as people of faith would be fascinating!!
I’d love to watch a video of you therapizing the friendship between Ferris Bueller and Cameron Frye. Was Ferris using Cameron for the car, or was he trying to save his life. Cameron seemed suicidal when the day started. Was Ferris doing it for both? I’d also love to hear you therapize the balance of the friendships in “Stand By Me”. I feel like each character has something to offer each of the other characters, and I’d enjoy hearing a therapist give insight on it.
I agree on just about anything you said but you neglect the fact that Pam's relationship with Roy was deeply problematic. Throughout the 2 first seasons it is very clear that Pam is unhappy and is just settling for Roy just because they have been a thing for so long. She feels trapped and has given up searching for something better. I think maybe Jim (with the confession, not the kiss) did what Pam didn't have the courage to do (not saying that's a problem)
I agree with you. Taking a shot is legit (but expect to be cut out of their life afterwards if they want to stay committed with their partner), going physical is not. I don't think Pam cheated (she was basically molested as I see it), but she did kissed him back as a first reaction, and that means she cheated in her heart. Her soul was already in another place, and she didn't make it clear with her fiancé. I don't agree with the whole "engaged is not married" thing. A relationship is a relationship, equally valid and worthy of respect during each phase of its life
I love Jim and Pam too (who wouldn't? They're adorable!) but I reaaally don't like Jim kissing Pam. I think it sexual assault, he didn't ask for her consent, they weren't having a "moment", he walked up to her and forced a kiss on her. Not only that, but only moments before he got rejected by her, so it was clear that she didn't want this. He might have acted in a desperate way to show her his feelings, but the girl said no, don't force yourself. We know Pam has a strong friendship and attraction for Jim, so it feels "okay", but it's not. And what if Pam didn't see Jim in that way at all? What if your platonic best friend forced a kiss on you?
I thinks its too far to classify it as assault. Since she did kiss him back, that means she did on some level want to kiss him. If she verbalized or tried to fight him off and he kissed her anyway, than yeah that would be assault
It’s not assault. He approached her after hearing the context of her conversation with her mother. She says she’s in love with him in that moment. It’s easy to read. Also, he approached her so that she knew what was coming and could have easily stopped him by stepping away, pushing him away or saying no.
I don't see an assault. He wasn't forcefull and he stopped as soon as she told him to stop. That's a line many don't understand. You can try something with someone you already have a relationship with adn lean for a kiss, or invite out, or praise how they look. And that's fine. It turns into an assault if after a clear sign to stop, you don't. And after the long relationship between both of them you can figure out easily that Jim knew Pam wasn't being sincere. If they had known each other for a year or less, then I'll grant you that going back was a bit "too much".
I had this scenario with my best friend Except I told her and her future husband I didn't leave him out of the loop, I apologized and let them know I had no intention of getting between them. Luckily those romantic feelings went away and it helped foster a really good friendship between her husband and I,now I'm the uncle to their kid moral of the story is honesty and transparency may not be easy but it's the right thing to do. Sometimes what you want isn't the best option for anyone.
I apologize, but I strongly disagree that "Engaged isn't married" Me and my fiancé ALREADY made that commitment, we already told each other that we want to be together forever, and if a piece of paper and a priest makes it magically more "Real", then that is an incredibly wrongheaded way to think about it, just because the relationship of two tv stars is that important to you shouldn't adjust the fact that being married doesn't make a relationship anymore real to some people.
I agree, the truth is even if they were just BF and GF, this confession would still stand on shaky grounds. The only appreciate time would be if she's just dating Roy and it's not serious. Then, only then, would Jim have the right to tell Pam how he feels (And screw over Roy in the process).
Roy and engagement seems different than yours. Pam really wanted to get married. Roy was dragging his feet. I don't think the commitment was really there for them. But for most people, I agree with you, being engaged is already a promise of commitment.
@@msaijay1153 Yeah, she and Roy had been engaged several times for years and he always put it off or pulled out. She took the commitment seriously but he didn't, and that was the problem. It's hard to respect a commitment that isn't being taken seriously to begin with, I'd argue? And it was pretty clear Pam was just someone Roy felt he was better than, and could feel like he still was the high school star; because she still saw him that way, he could still see himself that way. The only way to get her to stay with him was to promise her marriage, but he didn't actually want to marry her. It was just bait.
I totally agree with you. I don't think Pam was cheating, but if she doesn't leave Roy, she would have to tell him. Something like that needs to be out in the open if the relationship continues. If she just dumps him the next day, then don't tell him. It would be unnecessary pain for Roy.
Odd that I run across this today, as I have a friend who I have been helping to get with a girl he likes, but I have feelings for him too... I want him to be happy, and I know she makes him happy. I don't know if I can tell him how I feel. It seems unfair to him...
Engaged means that the decision isn't made yet not fully it's not finalized there is time to change your mind, so if someone is going to try to change your mind that's the time to do it in a respectful and appropriate way
That was a balzy move on Jim's part. But I loved it. They're chemistry is undeniable and she needed to let herself feel it before she married Roy. Because once she felt it she would realize what was missing from her and Roy's relationship. Way to go Jim!! 👍🔥❤️
Hot take: I think Jim is a scumbag for making a move on a woman who’s engaged. Her and Roy weren’t compatible at all, but that was for them to sort out. If she were single, it would’ve been more honorable. Also, Pam did lead him on by flirting back because she developed feelings for him as well. I know I’ll get heat for this, but that’s my two cents.
It's not a good look. But..."Engaged ain't married," and it's clear that she doesn't love Roy by maybe the 4th episode of the second season, at most. It would not have been good for him to hold that in or good for her to have gone into a marriage she knew she didn't really want to be in. I mean, let's be real here. Roy was the high school popular boy and she was the artsy drama kid. When Roy first started paying attention to her, after high school ended, she was still in that whole head space where she was thinking: "Oh my god! Roy is showing interest in me!" As a result, she basically spent 9 years in a one-sided relationship with a man who had not grown up. You can see that with him being a typical "bro" and putting his fellow "bros" first time, and time, and time again. He was not really in the relationship for her, which you can see with him being so "that guy" with Amy Adams' character, and openly flirting with her, in front of his fiancee and her boyfriend. I think she probably would have called off the wedding without Jim telling her...but he definitely helped her out there. However, dude...I'm rooting for you because you are head over heels for her I've been there where you climb out on that limb and tell a girl you love her...and then she pulls out the saw and says "no." But....*don't force a kiss on her!* That's not cool, and it's basically a form of assault. You said your peace, she told you no. You look at her and you say: "Well, I hope we can be friends and I'll do what I can to stay the best friend you need." ... and *you mean it.* Because now you know she's either going to act on it or you can finally start to let go.
100% agree. This "engaged aint married" thing doesn't really work for me. If you don't respect the relationship, you don't actually respect the person and their choices. It's never right to get in the way of a relationship. To me, at least.
Are there some states where being engaged is the same as being married? As in they can use each other's money, are de facto beneficiaries if one dies, etc? Especially if living together a long time, common law marriage? Because there are a lot of people who consider it cheating even while just dating and not engaged or married. My ex husband was having an affair, and when he found out this single woman was also seeing another guy, he was upset that she cheated on him. Even though she had no future with him as he had no intention of leaving me. I left.
from someone who doesn't have the context of having watched the whole show and rooting from them, yeah no I wasn't expecting that kiss oof and see no good side to it, if he wants her to know his feelings okay, but let her make her own decision next
I have a guy friend who I talk to a lot and we have great chemistry together. We are both married, and would never disrespect each other’s marriages like that. We are friends.
Hello, this brings up a similar question also my apologies if you may of have cover this in the past . In the movie the time traveler's wife, did Clare cheat on Henry with Henry.? If you could how would you describe there complex situation. thank you
While I think it is an oversimplification to say "marriage is just a piece of paper", I also don't think it means marriage is the only thing that matters. Ultimately everyone's happiness is the only thing that matters. If she was married, and in a truly abusive relationship, would the fact that she's married matter then? Of course not. And I don't think it would have been wrong to tell her how he feels even if she was married. Kissing her was definitely wrong though. This isn't hypothetical to me. I once had feelings for a married woman. I never told her, not because she was married, but because I knew that a) She had no intention of leaving that relationship, and was relatively happy, b) Because I knew she didn't have the same feelings for me, and c) I was genuine friends with the husband.
... Do you think you could Therapize Roy&Pam? Because, while it is obviously not a good and healthy relationship, they both stayed in it for over 9 YEARS!!!!! I'm interested to see your thoughts on it
I think a person in ANY relationship be it just dating or engaged or more is automatically 100% off limits. In my single days I would automatically move on and never think of that person in that way again unless they became single again. I would rather side with integrity for myself and respect for BOTH partners in the established relationship.
Yeah honestly it always weirds me out when tv and movies imply marriage changes your availability for other partners but right before that when you're "just" engaged, it's a good time to hear from other people that they have feelings for you?? What?
Not gonna lie, I kinda want to know what you’d say about Nadja and Lazlo from What We Do in the Shadows. Their marriage is strange, but it never seems to be in jeopardy.
Well I have found someone who has finally been able to put in words my thoughts on the best couple on TV ... EVER! Jonathan Decker comes through in spades in both his videos and I agree 100 % with both his commentaries. Pam didnt cheat on Roy in the traditional defintion. There was no gratuitous sex scene on the desk top but a reactionary kiss. she shut it down and never continued to encourage JIm after. Of course Pam flirted with Jim and liked the attention and liked everything about Jim. This is what some people feel is emotional cheating- actually telling someone else other than your significant other your feelings on many topics. This is something many many of us do in a workplace. Im not saying you fall in love but you do confide. Especially if the mate is like many and has no interest in the conversation. When so many are quick to criticize Pam remember any time Jim tried to intimate her life with Roy is a mistake she got defensive and said she was Ok with her choices. We know it is denial but it shows she wasnt leading Jim on as he could win her if so desired. She never gave him that vibe she wanted to be more and that is why her rejection of him on Casino night is not as shocking as most view it. Another telling scene that shows this is when Pam refutes that her and Jim were on their first date. He plays it up and she says listening to music is dancing. It is all kind of said in jest by Jim but Pam is telling him he is delusional. So Pam cheating is always a stretch to me but the Pam haters never live in the real world - just their black and white critical and moral tower.
I would love to see an episode of Jen and Judy from dead to me. Their relationship is so messed up I would love to see a professional opinion about it.
On the Office Ladies Podcast Jenna talked about how her and John fought HARD to keep Jim & Pam faithful through the years even when the writers wanted to write infidelity into their relationship. I think that’s beautiful and shows that they, on a deep level, knew their characters better than anyone else. I just love that story.
Well tbh the best parts about Jim and Pam is that they're played by John and Jenna who are wholesome on screen 💟
With the kiss, it’s also worth noting that Pam had told him no just ten minutes earlier. And even at that moment, she was confused and on the spot. So yes, Jim kissing her was a dick move. He’s a generally good person and a fun character, but it was a dick move.
I think it's not a dick move. It's been 10 minutes and we didn't see what happened in those. I kinda always felt like it was implied that something happened in the 10minutes where she told him 'yes' and they maybe already kissed
@@stvia based on what she’s saying to her mom, though, I don’t get the impression she changed her mind and was suddenly all in. She seems conflicted on the phone. And after the kiss, regardless of whether or not she wanted it, she still says no.
@@catdragon2584 Yeah though I felt that was more meant as a mislead to the audience but yeah it's definitely not clear what happened inbetween
@@stvia what happened in those 10 minutes was clearly implied. Jim headed out of the parking lot took a walk and Pam went to call her mom. If it's not a clear yes then it's a clear no
wait yeahhhhh
I was engaged to a guy who I had a similar relationship to as Pam and Roy. We weren't happy but we weren't unhappy, we just were together for so long that it just seemed like the next step and he was pretty neglectful, got jealous easily, etc but overall, was not a horrible boyfriend. We got engaged and one of my guy friends pulled a Jim, sans kiss. He had this poem written about me and we ended up talking the entire night. I broke off my engagement the next day. I didn't end up with the guy, we didn't date or anything, but he opened my eyes enough to see that I deserved someone who had passion for me and made me happy and alive, and that I could make someone feel that way too. It was one of the best decisions I had made because a few years later, I met my husband who I am celebrating 10 years of marriage with in September. Last I heard, my ex is married with some kids to a woman who makes him happy. All worked out in the end. I don't think Jim should have kissed her, however sometimes telling someone how you feel when you see that they are in a relationship that is clearly not too happy or promising may be the kick in the butt that they need.
awww, i love your story!! It almost sounds scripted :) you really do be a main character in a TV show haha. It's so awesome that things worked out for the better in the end :) I have a question tho: you said you only met your current husband a few years after this decision. Were those 'inbetween' years hard for you? Did it ever feel like you were in a season of endless waiting or hopelessness, or were you okay in that regard.
I'm really interested to what ur answer might be
I was also in a similar situation. I was married though, to a not great husband and it wasn't until I met my best friend that I realized I deserved so much more. I think the morale of the story is life is complicated and we are all just trying to figure things out. I'm so glad things worked out for you. I am so much happier now myself, but am at the very beginning of this new chapter, so we'll see where life takes me :)
@@funfings842 to answer your question- no. I was honestly really happy being single. It was the first time I was single in a very long time, so I reconnected with friends, spent more time with family, worked 2 jobs, and went to a trade school. It was great. That's when it clicked to me that I made the right decision.
@@Revy181 yeah, you know you really have to do what's right for you. I've seen so many people stay in unhappy marriages just because they're married or they think the other person needs them or whatever other excuse but what is life if you're not happy? I'm proud of you for taking that step, it's not easy. Good luck to you in your new chapter!
@@fruithippie aww, that's so awesome to hear! Sounds like it was an amazing season of finding yourself and ur security :) Thanks for answering!
Verbally expressing was fine but that kiss never should have happened. I wish men would ask more. They may be surprised at the answer and as a woman I definitely find asking to be kissed more romantic, but sometimes when you’re in love you don’t make logical decisions 😉
“We are all fools in love.”
~Jane Austen
I actually think that telling her was not appropriate either. Think about it, for the entirety of those two seasons WE KNOW he has a major crush on her. He has had t ime before she was engaged to tell her that. Yes, there was the risk of it being awkward between the two of them if she wasn't interested, but they could have gone back to being friends after some short period of time has passed.
But noooooo, this had to be prolonged and dramatized.
Jim, I'd argue, is not a "nice guy" stereotype because I don't feel like he ever felt entitled to Pam just for being nice to her and being her friend. That's good writing!
BUT, there's that pining and longing which no man could have endured unless he's a serious masochist.
Also, why did he have to arrive at her getting engaged to think "now is the time!". Did it never occur to him that if he doesn't get her, someone else will?! How did he react to the thought of that?!
I think for him to be in love with her that way and still not act on it was ... Odd.
In real life, if she was engaged, she'd marry the guy she's engaged to , not dump him for her friend who decided to spring this on her last minute. Her initial rejection in this scene would be her final decision. It's not fair for anyone to dump this on another person.
I had a friend tell me how they felt, and I wasn't ready, but knew they would be receptive. And one day I made the move. One of the best kisses in my life. Most guys are in too much of a hurry
No, if I were engaged and someone pulled this with me, I would feel so uncomfortable and like they don't respect my relationship. I never plan on getting married but that does not invalidate or diminish my years long relationship. With Jim and Pam, it seems okay because it's written in a way that makes us more comfortable with it. Pam was in a relationship that was bad for her, but if Roy and Pam were happy and comfortable then more people would think Jims in the wrong here.
I agree. I will just quickly throw my 2 cents in - I think that even if it seems that two people are in a bad relationship, that doesn't validate someone from the outside chiming in and making things unnecessarily complicated. I feel like staying in your lane and waiting out appropriately for them to be out of said relationship is the most moral thing to do. I am speaking through personal experience.
@@monitoo_fml oh I 100% agree, the second half of my comment was more about TV show logic than what would be appropriate in real life.
I agree with you and disagree with John diminishing the weight of a non married couple. First time I really dislike something he says and I don't know how to feel about it.
I completely agree it’s still disrespectful to do that to someone you know who is in a relationship even if it’s not a marriage yet.
@@hannahmalaran Yeah, for me the line is living together. A commitment is a commitment, for as long as it lasts. A conversation as friends (like, how are you in your life,/how are you with Roy, are you happy,I really do care about you being happy) would be equally romantic and sweet. And opens the door to the other person if they want to get closer.
Okay, so maybe the kiss was inappropriate, BUT I think you didn't notice the conversation that Pam was having with her mom. Her mom is asking her "are you in love with him". Pam says "I think I am" and right there Jim appears, he was just overwhelmed by the emotion of hearing an almost complete love confession, and so he kisses her. I only noticed this detail after a lot of rewatches and I found it so heartwarming.
This is a fantastic point.
Exactly! He overheard her conversation and that’s WHY he kissed her
@@MSoundous No, but consider what just happened, what else would they be talking about...
He can't hear the other end of the convo? She could've been asked are you hungry or are you cold, point is, I don't think you could presume that his reaction was to her conversation
@@bugweasel it was pretty obvious, she called her mom from her office in the middle of the night, and she was talking to her about what had just happened with Jim. He was listening from before, because he only (and instantly) appeared when Pam said "I think I am". Yes, maybe he didn't hear the important part of the conversation, but that chance is very slim given his attitude and the way the whole scene is made
Even though Pam may not have physically cheated on Roy, she did emotionally cheat on him with Jim.
I tend to have to play Devils advocate when it comes to Pam because even though Roy was awful to her,
she chose to use Jim as an outlet rather than address her true feelings and problems with Roy.
Jim did well to tell her when he did about how he felt, but I don't think he should have kissed her.
She clearly was having doubts and maybe even admitted to her mom that she felt the same way,
he should have just told her and given her time. But as we know he was ready to move if things didn't go his way -
which was somewhat of an unfair ultimatum for Pam, but understandable for him to move on.
I’d be interested in seeing a therapized video on Walt and Skyler from Breaking Bad and one on Jimmy McGill (Saul Goodman) and Kim Wexler from Better Call Saul.
Let’s make this a thing!!
Saul and Kim would be great!!
(My fiancé and I can't figure out if they're a-sexual together or what.)
Walt and Skylar, ooof!
Doesn't he kind of rape her and turn their marriage into a hostage situation? A bit dark for this channel... But...
Saul and Kim definitely!!
totally!!!
Me too!
Yes 👍
Another question that I think should be addressed is did she ever emotionally cheat on Roy with Jim? Like throughout their friendship, she would confide with Jim more than she ever did with Roy.
Even a better one, did she have sexual thoughts about Jim?
The way The Office is done would never make it possible for us to know if she had those thoughts. I think she did. Her rejection here is fueled by the fact that she's aware where she's at with Roy. I personally thought she had an eye for Jim, for a long time. You like the person you spend most of your time with, just a thought.
Yeeessss totally!
That's not cheating...
Agreed 10000%
Friendship isn't cheating. Sometimes women tell their best friends things they don't tell their husbands. Only because the world is so heteronormative, people have an issue if that friend is of the opposite sex. But it should be treated the same. Just because a woman is hetero, doesn't mean she will have feelings for every guy she's close with. I'm queer and I almost never see my female friends in a romantic or sexual way, especially my best friend 😁
Telling her is fine. Kissing her is not. Pam is 100% not in the wrong and not a cheater for kissing him back in the moment, she pushes him away once her mind catches up with what’s happening.
she agreed that she wanted this all along lol
I feel like there's more to it than just this episode though. Jim had heard when Pams mum came in the office and was specifically asking which one he was and Pams giddy response. Everyone could see that Pam was not super happy in her relationship with Roy. There were so many moments leading up to this where Pam seemed conflicted and seemed to share intimate moments with Jim. I feel like the story could have been told without him kissing her and she would have made the same decision to leave Roy but adding that scene in adding more thematically and added drama for the next season. Not every relationship is the same and we shouldn't base out actions and expectations around scripted moments
I respect your opinion Jono, same time when someone is any form of committed relationship, my opinion is that the person is allowed to share their true feelings, BUT when they try to COURT THEM in any shape or form, that is disrespect towards that person and their current partners.
I like this perspective.
@@quietestkitten ❤️
Yes, exactly!!
Agreed
agree, and I do not see the difference between married and commited . . . maybe I am not christian enough for that, but comitted is commited and overstepping there is always disrespectful
If you know someone is in relationship, even it's a best friend, It's best to walk away. It's better to see a situation isn't ideal instead of being in the middle of it.
Truth. Seeing a lot of people that say Roy wasn't great, but here's the thing, who's Jim to determine what's great or not for Pam?
Irl even if Roy was fantastic, Jim would still try to pick him apart because he wants Pam.
@@samf.s8786 and that's when he over stepped his boundaries.
I think that everyone in this love triangle did things that were wrong.
Pam was very obviously flirting with Jim multiple times, so for her to say that Jim “misinterpreted their friendship” was totally wrong and unfair.
Roy obviously is a dick, there isn’t really much to add.
And Jim kissed Pam even though she rejected him.
I do like Jim’s and Pam’s relationship but I think everyone is partially at fault for creating this situation
I think it makes sense for Pam to deny flirting with Jim, just because in that moment she really wanted to deny accountability and definitively shut down Jim's advances, so giving him any hope of reciprocation would potentially make that more difficult. But 100% she SHOULD take accountability for it. It's not fair to Jim to say it was all in his head if it wasn't. So she should acknowledge to him that she did flirt and then she should apologize for leading him on and she should not continue to flirt with him. Of course they kiss after this and so everything gets a bit more complicated but I'd say if the second scene hadn't happened, after the initial natural reaction in the first scene she should later talk to Jim and do what I said above.
I’m a little mixed on this. I do agree that Pam could have acknowledged flirting, but she really was put on the spot.
Also, flirting absolutely does not have to mean leading someone on or emotionally cheating or any of that. I get everyone has their own opinions, but it’s not like Jim was completely unaware of Pam’s serious relationship. It’s possible she suspected he had more serious feelings for her, and it’s possible she had been aware of her own serious feelings for him for awhile, but I don’t think that necessarily puts her at fault for how she interacted with him. They had a good groove and it was harmless, and it could very easily had stayed that way if both of them chose not to pursue it.
@@English3Muffin All we can see throughout the series is Jim trying to cope with his painful addiction to Pam. What shown in that particular scene is Jim nomore being able to block out those feelings. The whole thing is about him cracking up and taking his lost shot after long time struggling keeping all inside. So you say he could easily just not evolve what was happening between them? No, he just couldn't.
I think that's a really blurry line. Engaged doesn't equal married.. sure but, why?
You can't use a blanket statement like that for every situation. Engaged is a "commitment to commit", I disagree. There's a million reasons why a couple might wait to get married for a long period (like maybe they have to save up for the big ceremony of their dreams, or they're disabled and can't afford to lose their disability check yet) but that doesn't mean their commitment to each other isn't any less strong or valid then the couple that flew down to Vegas the weekend after the proposal 'because they just couldn't wait!'
Was it clear that pam was unhappy with her relationship.. yes. Does that mean Jim's actions were morally sound... No.
Ultimately pam should have extricated herself from the unhappy relationship first. But fear of loneliness and patriarchal societal expectations are a real b*tch.
Jim NEVER should have kissed her. If a friend did that to me, they wouldn't be a friend.
Thank you! Couldn't lay it down better.
While it was wrong for Jim to kiss her, without her consent and put her on the spot, I will defend Pam and Jim with these two points.
First, if Jim hadn't done this, Pam has the personality in the first couple of seasons of taking mistreatment from Roy and other characters. She probably would have married Roy and spent many more years of receiving the bare minimum (being left at hockey games, no valentines gifts, no help in wedding planning, etc.), accepting this as her normal.
Second, Roy proved time and time again that he was not a safe person for Pam to be vulnerable towards. While it is Pam's responsibility to maintain her happiness and well-being, she didn't take a chance on herself until after this crucial moment. And who knows, maybe she sought therapy in between seasons 2 and 3, off camera.
I think that's the writers deliberately making the second guy seem worse so that the first one would seem great despite his questionable choices and actions.
Another similar situation was Carrie and John on sex and the city. If you actually go to the YT video of the end of that series the comments read something like "They actually had to make the other guy physically abusive in order for this one to look better".
Yeah, that's pretty bad. Justifyibg toxicity with "Well it could have been more toxic" is pretty bad.
@@samf.s8786 I tried to come at it from this angle of “if this was real life”. Television in every aspect is not perfection and ebbs and flows with the times. But if you want women to settle for more toxicity, then good for you
This is a great point! Love how you articulated it.
I don’t think this counts as Pam cheating, but the way she explained it to Roy made it sound like she cheated. Instead of saying “Jim kissed me,” she said “I kissed Jim.” She made it sound like the whole thing was her idea
Was that really years later? They were engaged for that long?
@@recoveringsoul755 no she got back together with Roy after Phyllis’ wedding, but they broke again after Pam told him about the kiss
I think she kissed him back
She was probably just trying to protect Jim by taking all the blame. Didn't work, but she tried.
I think that's was the right thing to do, she was taking accountability instead of playing the victim.
As someone who is divorced, it is so much easier to leave an engagement than it is a marriage. Even an easy divorce involves hundreds of dollars of legal fees and court dates and a 6 month minimum wait. I wish I would have canceled my wedding instead of filed for divorce
Comparative ease of leaving =/= comparative morality of leaving either. Those are two different discussions. Your personal and potentially religious beliefs will influence what you feel about the latter, legalities and pragmatism define the first.
I'm good with Jim admitting his feelings since Pam was still engaged. But I don't agree with a sneak attack kiss. I was in Jim's place once. I was pretty sure the feelings weren't returned, but I had say something. I told him I didn't expect anything to change, and we could still be friends. He later went on to date one of my best friends (who didn't know I had feelings for him), and that really sucked, but I don't regret letting him know.
I agree that Jim hadn't done anything inappropriate by telling her he had feelings for her. Pam and Roy's relationship isn't his - it's up to Pam to enforce her relationship's boundaries, whatever they are. I don't think it was appropriate for him to walk up and kiss her though. Not because I think she didn't want it, but he couldn't have known she was consenting. She told him no a few minutes earlier, and then he interrupted her words without even looking at her for any type of body language consent. Didn't like that part. But I don't necessarily side-eye Jim for not respecting Pam's relationship with Roy. I think if Pam were giving all the signals that she was willing to cross her relationships' boundaries, that's on her, not Jim.
Thing is about Jim, he had two whole seasons to tell Pam how he feels, and he waited. He knew he wanted her, and he waited. IRL nothing would probably be wrong with Roy, and she'd pick Roy.
Honestly, my take is that there was emotional infidelity for years. If my husband had a relationship with someone like the one Jim and Pam had, I’d be heartbroken, furious, and I’d feel utterly betrayed. That’s not to say I don’t think he can have close friends of any sex or gender. Heck, he should have more! Friends are fantastic, but you shouldn’t have romantic feelings towards people who are just your friends.
Yes you would be jealous but it happens all the time in the workplace whether you are aware of it or not. Most arent ! The term work husband/wife is very real. This is basically what Jim and Pam were but Jim wanted more and Pam enjoyed the attention. Is it wrong - probably - but like most humans we dont get it right all the time unless you are perfect. This is why Pam and Jim are so relatable and not forgettable like most TV couples!
Be careful with having friends of opposite gender. It sound nice and dandy and politically correct but humans behavior says otherwise. Just a word of caution
I would love love LOVE to see you cover Pam and Roy! There is a plethora of red flags and so many people I see in discussions say "whoof, that was me in a bad relationship" - I think covering that would be great to help others see the red flags too! (Touching on why Pam gravitated to Jim even while engaged would be a nice perspective to have too!)
Yes! I wound be so interesting to discuss!
I had a friend tell me her marriage was more real than my relationship with my son's dad. Well... about 3 months later, she ended up starting an affair... marriage does not mean the relationship is more real than a non-married relationship. My marriage was a lot shorter than the non-married relationship with my son's father. It's all about the commitment.
agree
Honestly, don’t agree with J on the married vs engaged issue… Kissing without consent? Not OK…
I’ve been in a similar situation. Only I was the single friend and my *married* friend kissed me with no warning. I was so shocked I didn’t know how to act. I remember backing away but kissing back because I didn’t know how to leave the situation w/o causing a scene with my best friend. It was awful. We were flirty, but I made it very clear I respected his relationship and liked his wife, and that was always our understanding. I guess until it wasn’t. Our friendship didn’t last after that. I felt gross and so guilty.
(Side note: hard lesson learned about who to be flirty with. I’ve had safe work flirts before but he was the last.)
So I agree, for tv, it was definitely a squee moment, but in real life, that was really inappropriate and could have seriously backfired on Jim. Regardless of how Pam felt about him, putting her in that spot was completely unfair and out of line.
How terrible. I'm glad that person is out of your life, but it sounds like he kissed you without your consent, which is assault. I'm so sorry that happened to you, and I feel compelled to tell you neither him doing that, nor you losing touch with them afterwards was your fault.
@@LovethosePNWVibes assault? Please don’t make her story more than what she says it is.. 😒
@@ufink point taken, depending on where she lives, that event may be more likely categorized as sexual battery if she didn’t feel physical pain. In my state, it is sexual assault. But the fact remains, this happened without her consent and caused some trauma in her life. We shouldn’t trivialize that.
@@LovethosePNWVibes Sounds like you’re still projecting. Nobody is trivializing her story. But I also think it’s dangerous when people try to tell people they’ve been traumatized when you’re not intimately involved in the situation.. Leave that to her therapist and family and friends..
@@ufink well, every definition I ever got for sexuall assault is touch of sexuall nature like kissing without both consenting to it and that is plain what she said in the original comment. But If you go by bible standarts, where it is not rape, if he later pays the womans father and marries her, then sexuall assault does not exist as a concept at all . . . .
There’s also one episode where Pam realizes that Jim likes her. This is before he confessed. Sure she brushed it off before the end but she did know. And she continues with him knowing what may happen
I don’t think it matters what stage of a relationship two people are, what matters is how healthy and loving the relationship is. Roy was not good to Pam and she turned to Jim to make up for it. The kiss was inappropriate!
I think this is the writers putting Roy down to make Jim more golden and shiny. Truth is, that's not how it would have happened irl. Pam is an adult in a committed relationship with Roy, who's to interfere and say Roy is bad for her if she hasn't expressed that she desires to leave? Or that he physically hurt her?
Unless a person's life is in danger, or they want to leave for no reason other than the partner being toxic, someone like Jim who stands to benefit a lot from the relationship ending should not interfere.
She should be able to decide that without Jim's interference
I agree and disagree. I think there are some people who would say, “I’ve had enough” and just leave and then there are people that need another reason to leave because they’re scared of being on their own or they need someone to help them realize that their relationship is toxic or whatever the case may be.
@@samf.s8786 not necessarily... I think Pam got very "comfortable" (aka not wanting change) in the relationship with Roy. From my perspective, he was not a good boyfriend/fiancee - I do not remember seeing one redeeming thing about him. I think Pam became jaded over time and it took the friendship (or however you want to address it) with Jim to realise that things could be better.
I basically agree with your opinion. The show makes it clear to us that Roy isn't good for Pam and that she isn't really happy with him. And I think her getting as close to Jim as she does is largely down to her seeking out the attention and support that Roy doesn't give her. I think by this point in the series, even Pam herself is aware that she enjoys being with Jim more than she enjoys being with Roy, but she isn't yet ready to leave Roy. That's understandable. She's invested years of her life in that relationship and even reached the point where she believed she could marry Roy. Of course she's not going to just toss that out the window the minute she has feelings for someone else.
I think what upset Pam most about Jim's confession is that it kind of forced the moment of decision on her. It forced her to choose whether to maintain the status quo or upend her whole life. That's not an easy choice, and certainly not one that she should be expected to make within a few seconds. I think Jim should have told her his feelings and then told her he didn't expect her to take any action or make any response, as Jono said. She needed time to process her own feelings--which is clearly what she was doing while speaking to her mom, a trusted confidante. If Jim had just given her the space to think deeply about what she really wanted, I think she still would have chosen him, but coming up and kissing her while she was still in the midst of working that out was just further forcing the matter. It's like he was trying to force her hand instead of let her make her own decision, and that's a big part of why it's a pretty dick thing too.
This series is great! I’m watching New Girl and just saw an interesting conversation between Nick and Winston about how Nick has borrowed thousands of dollars over the years and never pays it back (season 1, episode 16). I wonder if you could analyze how they navigate this conflict, and offer any guidance for friends and especially roommates who have financial debt between them. I’d love to hear some tips for how to navigate that situation!
Tbh this situation is easy to understand in context, Pam was lying when she said he misinterpreted her, Jim was shooting his shot, and Roy was awful to her. Everyone’s a dick in this situation and this was the catalyst for them to all find happiness. Also peeps saying it was SA like y’all he stopped the moment she pushed him away, if she had wanted to stop him immediately she could’ve, instead she leaned in and enjoyed it for a moment.
"You're in love with somebody, and they're already in a relationship. Do you shoot your shot, or let it be?"
Normally, just let it be, but if the relationship is abusive and wrong all around and the abused can't get out of it no matter how hard they try, then you gotta run interference
Otherwise, just let it be
I dont think Jim is in a position to judge Pam and Roy's relationship. When you're in love with someone in a relationship you see all the flaws in that relationship and think about all the ways you wouldn't make those same mistakes. So if you know you're not seeing a situation clearly because you're so emotionally invested all you can do is what Jim does which is ask yourself "What do I need to be ok and how can I express that while doing as little harm as possible?" (Kiss was still wrong tho)
I was married when my now husband first told me he loved me. My relationship with my ex-husband had turned into a horrifically abusive one (I am disabled because of it), and I was ready to give up on life. I had been isolated from most people in my life and felt pretty alone. My current husband and I were friends, but he, like everyone else who knew me, had no idea what was going on. He discovered it one day when he noticed bruises around my neck when my scarf slipped. Until that moment, he never planned on telling me how he felt. It took time for me to let myself feel anything and to let myself believe I was worthy of being loved, but his love saved me. Literally.
@@elphabarichardson607 I hope you are safe and happy now
@@swatisaini6447 I am, thank you. My current husband and I are about to celebrate our 6th wedding anniversary. He is the sweetest, kindest person in the world.
@@mashzapotato I think he is because even though he was in love with her, he was her best friend. Jim shoot his shot because she’s happier around him and he can tell. He was in love with her for years but he wasn’t blindly in love, he never talked shit about Roy to her nor did he ever encourage her to think differently about him. The kiss was a last time effort because even though she’s engaged to Roy, you can’t deny that she is mutually attracted to Jim.
you should do a therapy session on never have I ever on devi and paxton or devi and ben
Therapize the relationship between Niles and Daphne from Frasier, or Sam and Diane from Cheers, or Frasier and Lilith from Cheers/ Frasier.
Second that!
Totally! All three if possible.
I've always found the Frasier and Lilith relationship in Frasier interesting. Post divorce, and yeah the family sometimes aren't nice to her, but when you watch them interact together you can see the friendship there. E.g. in one ep, Frasier asks her if she and her new husband got the gift basket he sent them.
@@LovedayJourno I think it was also great that Lilith also made sure that Frasier was included in the raising of their son Freddy and that she didn't just cut him off from their child entirely. She has even acknowledged that he is a good dad, which I think is very healthy for a divorced couple and not something you often see done so respectfully. They worked together to get him into a prestigious school and everything. Heck, she even traveled to Seatle because she wanted another child and determined that Frasier's genetics would be the most ideal and desirable.
@@michelleburk2536 the ep where they work together on an article because they were ultimately being manipulated by Freddy is a good demonstrate of that :)
I would love to see you therapize the relationship between Julianne Potter (Julia Roberts) and Michael O'Neal (Dermot Mulroney) in My Best Friends Wedding.
Pick me, choose me, let me make you happy!
Yeah, that speech is for the ages, for all the wrong reasons of course! 🤣
Who tells a guy who's about to get married to "like drop that" in order to go back to a person who rejected them time and time again and literally treated them as "their casual friend with benefits". Like, that guy was strung along for years of his life, and the minute she realized "uh oh! I think I can't live without him" she actively attempts to sabotage his wedding.
So desperate!
My favorite line is actually this one:
"And who's running after you? No body!".
Edit: Was also fun seeing "the cool girl" actually wonder why a guy is dumping her for another "more girly/ generic beauty" one. Gee I don't know Jules, maybe it's because she loves him and makes him feel great when he's with her?
Yeah, Pam cheated for kissing him back. She should have been honest with herself about her feelings for Jim (and her unhappiness with Roy, which was a preexisting issue because Roy was a jerk).
And Jim should have honored Pam’s no. He crossed a line, big time. Their love story would have been healthier and more honoring of themselves, each other, and Roy if Jim had made his disclosure and then let Pam make the call.
Still love Jim and Pam, agree that their story was beautiful, and loved this video :)
"You didn't cheat but you're still a traitor"
Rodrigo truths!
Lol love this connection.
You and your Videos are great!
Thank you for sharing this for free, it helps.
I know Hallmark movies aren't universally liked or considered the creme de la creme, but one that I think illustrates an appropriate approach to a similar situation is a "Godwink Christmas," the first one. I agree with your take, Jono!
Michael and Holly from "The Office" -- from the very beginning, we see Michael show some self-awareness for the first time!
I would also say Pam did cheat, just by kissing him back. If I was in a relationship with someone & someone else kissed me & I didn’t feel anything at all for that person who just invaded my space & forced a kiss on me, I’d stop it immediately, I would have backed away, pushed away, whatever it took, but here, Pam doesn’t pull away immediately. Maybe she was shocked at first, but you could literally see her lift her hands to the sides of his face, she reciprocated the kiss. Even if she didn’t make the first move, even if it was just for a few seconds, she reciprocated it. I don’t think cheating is just physical either, but emotional too. Once you start daydreaming about someone else other than your partner, you imagine what life would be like with someone else, you spend so much time with the opposite sex wether it be at work, or in other non related work settings & it’s just the two of you, thats when I would consider it emotional cheating & I think Pam did cheat & it was evident that long before Jim kissed her, she already had feelings for him although she was engaged to Roy.
I agree with everything you said 100%. She didn't engage the kiss; yes she reacted in the moment, but she pushed him away once her brain caught up to the situation. Yes he should have told her then before it was too late, but the kiss was unwarranted (but possibly necessary for her to finally shit or get off the pot)
I would love to see you react to the fight between Jesse and Celine in the 2013 movie "Before Midnight". I think is such an intense and realistic scene that shows mature people in a commited relationship having some serious problems and in my opinion doing some heavy accusations. I don't know I would just love to see your take on them.
Btw, amazing video as always☺️
I'm going to have to disagree here. I get that Jim telling Pam he loves her when she's in an obviously unhappy relationship makes it more digestible for the audience, but I think it's only somewhat acceptable because Pam is not happy and everyone knows it, not because she's "only" engaged. A commitment is a commitment, regardless of marriage or engagement or anything. I want to get married at some point, but for now, I'm just in a happy and healthy relationship with someone I'm very much in love with, and I wouldn't appreciate someone shooting their shot with me or my boyfriend, just because we're not married. It's a fine line to walk, and Jim was still wrecking a household, even if they were not married.
This! It def would've been different if Pam was happy in the relationship, married, engaged or not. I think that Jim added up all of the factors - the years long engagement and the emotional neglect - and come to the conclusion that the relationship was as rocky as ever, and that this was his shot. Though I did find Michael's "engaged ain't married" comment funny, I did find it a bit weird in terms of marriage being the thing that suddenly takes you off the market.
I think I’d agree with you if the long engagement wasn’t such a theme that Pam was clearly unhappy with. I think the reason Jim thinks he has a chance is because Roy never actually finalised the engagement. If it were a shorter engagement, they were clearly happy together and actively planning a wedding that they were both excited about, I would absolutely agree with you.
I think Jim decided to tell her because he did it for himself. The whole unrequited love trope. If I don't tell her, then I will never know what could have been... That's selfishly motivated. relationships also go through waves of ups and downs and we often don't know the whole picture. Pam was unhappy in a relationship that she decided to stay committed to. That's on her. If Roy wasn't treating her in a kind and loving way, she needed to realize that for herself. I think it's very important to have friends of the opposite sex for this reason. Your friends love you regardless; where relationships often pigeon hole you or there's a lot of unmet expectations that can be toxic. It's definitely a whole other dynamic.
But in reality, Jim decided to tell her before it was too late for his window to be closed. Because he wanted her... But in order for him to want her, he is wishing for her own heartache. That's not loving nor kind.. Yes, maybe the relationship isn't the greatest between Pam and Roy but there's a form of emotional entanglement still.
I love the channel. Cant tell you how much its helped.
Can you please talk about redemption with zuko from avatar the last Airbender?
my favorite youtuber😭😭
The First Jim/Pam kiss is a Great piece of tv entertainment
I also definitely agree that at first Jim didn't do anything wrong but when he kissed her, he messed up.
I would love to see you therapize Anthony Bridgerton and Kate Sharma from Bridgerton season 2. They have more of an “enemies to lovers” relationship
I love the Office to probably an unhealthy degree, but shhhh. Anyway, no, Pam didn't cheat. Jim kissing her without her consent (if this had been in real life) was a jerk move. But for the show, I squeeeeed as much as anyone else.
I think the writers (and cast) were very honest in their portrayal of Pam and Jim as flawed imperfect human beings who did their best and sometimes fell short. As we saw in Season 3, the kiss did not lead to them getting together immediately. And I feel like that's a very real outcome of a situation like this.
I would love to see the relationship between the Phantom and Christine in Phantom of the Opera tbh
all of this makes sense, very good advice! if I were Jim, I would tell her while resecting the situation without being a total nice gu, since pam is engaged (also, good definition)
I had a crush on a girl and when she fell for her current husband, I realized that I had to let her go and just keep moving forward.
I'd love to see tiy therapize the characters from Game of Thrones, that would be amazing!
Hey Mr. Decker and Mended Light, great video as usual 🔥. Would you consider reacting to therapy scenes in the Netflix series "Never Have I Ever"? I'm confused because some call it good therapy and some don't. I'm very much interested to hear your take on the scenes
Telling her he wanted to be with her was OK, kissing her right after that was not. IRL, I would see Jim as someone in a bad place who crossed a line because he felt desperate. He thinks Pam wants him back and wants out of the relationship, and he's giving her an out, but that's just a lie to get what he wants. I've been in this exact situation, and it's such a sickening feeling when you have to tell he person you've been thinking about to walk away because now they've put you in a moral bind. In my case, we never recovered from it. I wish he would have told me how he felt and then gave me some space to think about it.
Please please please therapize all of the Modern family couples 🙌🙌🙌
I've never seen The Office, but I've seen enough about it to know the synopsis. I agree 100% with your judgements: Jim wasn't inappropriate in telling her at that point, but he was wrong to kiss her. And Pam didn't cheat.
I just wish he had been brave enough to tell her before she got engaged.
He didn't know her before she got engaged. She had a long engagement with her high school boy friend, a guy who took her for granted.
Please do more friends therapized 🙂🙏
A guy I was friends with and had had a crush on when we first met told me he'd always liked me when I announced my engagement. I turned him down and felt a bit weird about our friendship for awhile
did he do right by telling her? yes WITH the addition of no expectations from her. Additionally, if she rejected this advance and wanted to end the friendship, he should have respected that too. I think it is necessary for people to be in the clear on their feelings when there's a potential factor - like here where she is engaged but not married.
How a person views marriage and engagement does play into this though. I agree that approaching a married person is not cool, but I also agree that some marriages are not cool. I would say, as adults, people need to be honest but appropriately so. AND even more important - honest with themselves. Do you actually have feelings for some one, or is it the moment, is it the situation, is it the environment etc.?
I have been on the receiving and giving end of similar situations (though not with engaged people) and have no romantic relation ship currently, I have kept some friendships I have ended some. But I have also lived through this the very hard way, and been though a lot of therapy to reach the point of understanding my feelings and another person's choice (and vice versa).
We all have a choice, and sometimes we will pick incorrectly as to what to do, but respect and honestly go a long way in any outcome.
You should do the relationships in Once Upon a Time! The romantic ones like Captain Swan, Prince Charming and Snow White, etc. or you could do the family relationship. Emma and Regina coparenting. Forgiveness. Redemption. So much to unpack in that show!!
I would love to see you cover, here or on Cinema Therapy with Alan, the movie “The Wedding Plan” (Rama Burshtein, 2016 - available on Prime Video).
Your perspectives as a therapist and filmmaker (respectively) and as people of faith would be fascinating!!
I’d love to watch a video of you therapizing the friendship between Ferris Bueller and Cameron Frye. Was Ferris using Cameron for the car, or was he trying to save his life. Cameron seemed suicidal when the day started. Was Ferris doing it for both?
I’d also love to hear you therapize the balance of the friendships in “Stand By Me”. I feel like each character has something to offer each of the other characters, and I’d enjoy hearing a therapist give insight on it.
I agree on just about anything you said but you neglect the fact that Pam's relationship with Roy was deeply problematic. Throughout the 2 first seasons it is very clear that Pam is unhappy and is just settling for Roy just because they have been a thing for so long. She feels trapped and has given up searching for something better. I think maybe Jim (with the confession, not the kiss) did what Pam didn't have the courage to do (not saying that's a problem)
Could you do some therapising for Cobra Kai?? There are such rich character situations and development
I agree with you. Taking a shot is legit (but expect to be cut out of their life afterwards if they want to stay committed with their partner), going physical is not. I don't think Pam cheated (she was basically molested as I see it), but she did kissed him back as a first reaction, and that means she cheated in her heart. Her soul was already in another place, and she didn't make it clear with her fiancé. I don't agree with the whole "engaged is not married" thing. A relationship is a relationship, equally valid and worthy of respect during each phase of its life
I love Jim and Pam too (who wouldn't? They're adorable!) but I reaaally don't like Jim kissing Pam. I think it sexual assault, he didn't ask for her consent, they weren't having a "moment", he walked up to her and forced a kiss on her. Not only that, but only moments before he got rejected by her, so it was clear that she didn't want this. He might have acted in a desperate way to show her his feelings, but the girl said no, don't force yourself.
We know Pam has a strong friendship and attraction for Jim, so it feels "okay", but it's not. And what if Pam didn't see Jim in that way at all? What if your platonic best friend forced a kiss on you?
I thinks its too far to classify it as assault. Since she did kiss him back, that means she did on some level want to kiss him. If she verbalized or tried to fight him off and he kissed her anyway, than yeah that would be assault
It’s not assault. He approached her after hearing the context of her conversation with her mother. She says she’s in love with him in that moment. It’s easy to read. Also, he approached her so that she knew what was coming and could have easily stopped him by stepping away, pushing him away or saying no.
I don't see an assault. He wasn't forcefull and he stopped as soon as she told him to stop.
That's a line many don't understand. You can try something with someone you already have a relationship with adn lean for a kiss, or invite out, or praise how they look. And that's fine. It turns into an assault if after a clear sign to stop, you don't. And after the long relationship between both of them you can figure out easily that Jim knew Pam wasn't being sincere.
If they had known each other for a year or less, then I'll grant you that going back was a bit "too much".
I had this scenario with my best friend Except I told her and her future husband I didn't leave him out of the loop, I apologized and let them know I had no intention of getting between them. Luckily those romantic feelings went away and it helped foster a really good friendship between her husband and I,now I'm the uncle to their kid moral of the story is honesty and transparency may not be easy but it's the right thing to do. Sometimes what you want isn't the best option for anyone.
Why is it that people throw a hissy fit whenever it’s brought up that Pam cheated on Roy?
The Santa Clarita Diet! I'd love for them to be therapized.
Please react to comedians talking about mental health, Taylor Tomlinson has bipolar and she talks a lot about this
I apologize, but I strongly disagree that "Engaged isn't married" Me and my fiancé ALREADY made that commitment, we already told each other that we want to be together forever, and if a piece of paper and a priest makes it magically more "Real", then that is an incredibly wrongheaded way to think about it, just because the relationship of two tv stars is that important to you shouldn't adjust the fact that being married doesn't make a relationship anymore real to some people.
I agree, the truth is even if they were just BF and GF, this confession would still stand on shaky grounds.
The only appreciate time would be if she's just dating Roy and it's not serious. Then, only then, would Jim have the right to tell Pam how he feels (And screw over Roy in the process).
Roy and engagement seems different than yours. Pam really wanted to get married. Roy was dragging his feet. I don't think the commitment was really there for them. But for most people, I agree with you, being engaged is already a promise of commitment.
@@msaijay1153 Yeah, she and Roy had been engaged several times for years and he always put it off or pulled out. She took the commitment seriously but he didn't, and that was the problem. It's hard to respect a commitment that isn't being taken seriously to begin with, I'd argue? And it was pretty clear Pam was just someone Roy felt he was better than, and could feel like he still was the high school star; because she still saw him that way, he could still see himself that way. The only way to get her to stay with him was to promise her marriage, but he didn't actually want to marry her. It was just bait.
I totally agree with you. I don't think Pam was cheating, but if she doesn't leave Roy, she would have to tell him. Something like that needs to be out in the open if the relationship continues. If she just dumps him the next day, then don't tell him. It would be unnecessary pain for Roy.
I would like to see you theropize Melinda and Jim from ghost whisperer.
Odd that I run across this today, as I have a friend who I have been helping to get with a girl he likes, but I have feelings for him too... I want him to be happy, and I know she makes him happy. I don't know if I can tell him how I feel. It seems unfair to him...
Why would he burden her with that information when she was about to be married? If he wanted to say it, he had years to day it!
Please do Nate and Cals relationship from Euphoria!
Agree agree agree
Good moral compass
Engaged means that the decision isn't made yet not fully it's not finalized there is time to change your mind, so if someone is going to try to change your mind that's the time to do it in a respectful and appropriate way
That was a balzy move on Jim's part. But I loved it. They're chemistry is undeniable and she needed to let herself feel it before she married Roy. Because once she felt it she would realize what was missing from her and Roy's relationship. Way to go Jim!!
👍🔥❤️
Hot take: I think Jim is a scumbag for making a move on a woman who’s engaged. Her and Roy weren’t compatible at all, but that was for them to sort out. If she were single, it would’ve been more honorable. Also, Pam did lead him on by flirting back because she developed feelings for him as well. I know I’ll get heat for this, but that’s my two cents.
I feel the exact same way. Always bothered me in those first few seasons.
I agree it's not a good thing to do but she did sent him signals all the time and it's still on her if she actually cheats imo, jim was single
It's not a good look. But..."Engaged ain't married," and it's clear that she doesn't love Roy by maybe the 4th episode of the second season, at most. It would not have been good for him to hold that in or good for her to have gone into a marriage she knew she didn't really want to be in.
I mean, let's be real here. Roy was the high school popular boy and she was the artsy drama kid. When Roy first started paying attention to her, after high school ended, she was still in that whole head space where she was thinking: "Oh my god! Roy is showing interest in me!"
As a result, she basically spent 9 years in a one-sided relationship with a man who had not grown up. You can see that with him being a typical "bro" and putting his fellow "bros" first time, and time, and time again. He was not really in the relationship for her, which you can see with him being so "that guy" with Amy Adams' character, and openly flirting with her, in front of his fiancee and her boyfriend. I think she probably would have called off the wedding without Jim telling her...but he definitely helped her out there.
However, dude...I'm rooting for you because you are head over heels for her I've been there where you climb out on that limb and tell a girl you love her...and then she pulls out the saw and says "no." But....*don't force a kiss on her!* That's not cool, and it's basically a form of assault. You said your peace, she told you no. You look at her and you say: "Well, I hope we can be friends and I'll do what I can to stay the best friend you need." ... and *you mean it.* Because now you know she's either going to act on it or you can finally start to let go.
Unpopular opinion, but I wholeheartedly agree.
100% agree. This "engaged aint married" thing doesn't really work for me. If you don't respect the relationship, you don't actually respect the person and their choices. It's never right to get in the way of a relationship. To me, at least.
I would like to see a video on Shrek and Fiona’s relationship. I think there is a lot of stuff to be unpacked there.
Can you look at Pam's ex Roy in video. I rewatched the office recently and I see so many red flags during the time he tries to win Pam back.
Agree about crossing the line
Are there some states where being engaged is the same as being married? As in they can use each other's money, are de facto beneficiaries if one dies, etc? Especially if living together a long time, common law marriage? Because there are a lot of people who consider it cheating even while just dating and not engaged or married. My ex husband was having an affair, and when he found out this single woman was also seeing another guy, he was upset that she cheated on him. Even though she had no future with him as he had no intention of leaving me. I left.
I would like to see Sheldon and Amy from TBBT
from someone who doesn't have the context of having watched the whole show and rooting from them, yeah no I wasn't expecting that kiss oof and see no good side to it, if he wants her to know his feelings okay, but let her make her own decision next
It's more so that they've been engaged for three years and Roy doesn't show any interest in actually getting married.
I have a guy friend who I talk to a lot and we have great chemistry together. We are both married, and would never disrespect each other’s marriages like that. We are friends.
Hello, this brings up a similar question also my apologies if you may of have cover this in the past .
In the movie the time traveler's wife, did Clare cheat on Henry with Henry.?
If you could how would you describe there complex situation. thank you
Katara and Aang from avatar!
Ron and Hermione from Harry Potter
While I think it is an oversimplification to say "marriage is just a piece of paper", I also don't think it means marriage is the only thing that matters. Ultimately everyone's happiness is the only thing that matters. If she was married, and in a truly abusive relationship, would the fact that she's married matter then? Of course not. And I don't think it would have been wrong to tell her how he feels even if she was married. Kissing her was definitely wrong though.
This isn't hypothetical to me. I once had feelings for a married woman. I never told her, not because she was married, but because I knew that a) She had no intention of leaving that relationship, and was relatively happy, b) Because I knew she didn't have the same feelings for me, and c) I was genuine friends with the husband.
Pam didnt have a choice with the kiss but she definitely cheated. Her heart was already disconnecting from her fiance back to jim.
... Do you think you could Therapize Roy&Pam? Because, while it is obviously not a good and healthy relationship, they both stayed in it for over 9 YEARS!!!!! I'm interested to see your thoughts on it
i think that the real question is not that she is in a relationship, but why is she in a relationship with Roy while she is in love with Jim
I think a person in ANY relationship be it just dating or engaged or more is automatically 100% off limits. In my single days I would automatically move on and never think of that person in that way again unless they became single again. I would rather side with integrity for myself and respect for BOTH partners in the established relationship.
Yeah honestly it always weirds me out when tv and movies imply marriage changes your availability for other partners but right before that when you're "just" engaged, it's a good time to hear from other people that they have feelings for you?? What?
Eric and Donna from that 70's show get therapized??
Not gonna lie, I kinda want to know what you’d say about Nadja and Lazlo from What We Do in the Shadows. Their marriage is strange, but it never seems to be in jeopardy.
Well I have found someone who has finally been able to put in words my thoughts on the best couple on TV ... EVER! Jonathan Decker comes through in spades in both his videos and I agree 100 % with both his commentaries. Pam didnt cheat on Roy in the traditional defintion. There was no gratuitous sex scene on the desk top but a reactionary kiss. she shut it down and never continued to encourage JIm after. Of course Pam flirted with Jim and liked the attention and liked everything about Jim. This is what some people feel is emotional cheating- actually telling someone else other than your significant other your feelings on many topics. This is something many many of us do in a workplace. Im not saying you fall in love but you do confide. Especially if the mate is like many and has no interest in the conversation. When so many are quick to criticize Pam remember any time Jim tried to intimate her life with Roy is a mistake she got defensive and said she was Ok with her choices. We know it is denial but it shows she wasnt leading Jim on as he could win her if so desired. She never gave him that vibe she wanted to be more and that is why her rejection of him on Casino night is not as shocking as most view it. Another telling scene that shows this is when Pam refutes that her and Jim were on their first date. He plays it up and she says listening to music is dancing. It is all kind of said in jest by Jim but Pam is telling him he is delusional. So Pam cheating is always a stretch to me but the Pam haters never live in the real world - just their black and white critical and moral tower.
I would love to see an episode of Jen and Judy from dead to me. Their relationship is so messed up I would love to see a professional opinion about it.