As someone who is relatively new to the competitive side of smash ( been watching and practicing for about a year and a half, never entered a tournament ) I wanna thank you guys working on this channel for making great informative videos, they truly help alot
"if you attack from ledge, you use your double jump and that's bad" *double video of mango double laser* All I hear is the moon saying "That's not safe"
Hax has the best ledge play for 3 reasons. First, he was the originator and person who popularized invincible ledgedashing giving him an understanding of the ledge that others didn't have. Second, his play style, especially as of late, is very ledge heavy. He uses it to get away from pressure and turn his disadvantageous position into an opening or even a kill. Finally, the main reason he is is because he is consistent with his ledgedashes. Whether the B0XX helps him or not, he is still going to get it 99/100 times. He rarely loses more than a 2 or 3 frames when ledgedashing. Bonus point: He is Hax FUCKING Money. Bang for your buck bitches. $$$
Everyone has something good about their ledge game, but I think I'll have to go with M2K because he has consistently amazing edge guards with from ledge with both marth AND sheik too [and some pretty nice, maybe not risky/difficult, mixups like walll jump bair]. At first I was kind of hesitating on the M2K pick but an entire part of his identity is on the ledge, so you'll see many more instances of his ledge game than other players, with naturally SO MUCH MORE TIME there's bound to be more negative outcomes, but percentage wise he does amazing on the ledge Some honorable mentions / food for thought: Leffen: has some good use of tech and almost never misses rinse repeat walling bairs / option coverage Armada: similar to leffen, Swedish stuff you know Axe: does some nutty stuff and it often actually feels like it came out of the blue because he does so many different things / doesn't repeat some of it often which makes you wonder how much of it is idk efficient? or even viable? N0ne: havent seen any comments on him, I mean why not? his off stage game is RIDICULOUSSSSS and he transitions between platform/ledge/stage AMAZINGLY, from the ledge he probably shows the most variety and options out there because THIS MAN HAS NO FEAR, but I will say no fear lets him do amazing things it also lets him SD here and there. You may argue the consistency isnt there but he has some pin point spots where he just keeps following through with the edgeguard covering SO MANY OPTIONS that you can tell its all very purposeful and many people wouldn't be able to anticipate/cover these things at all [maybe what I'm trying to say is... you can't fail if you never try and people don't try what n0ne does lol, but in a game where you can SD its reasonable not to try] Wizzy: has some overlap with n0ne in the char/tech department, but VERY very different, don't think I need to mention much about Wizzy here [lots of other comments] but some key difference in ledge scenarios are N0ne is more likely to go deeeeep during the edgeguard [Wizzy is more likely to rinse repeat a safer otpion], and Wizzy is more likely to be patient and stall to recover stage control [n0ne may repeat a bit but will speed in with mixups for stage recovery?] Hbox: I see a lot of hbox here and I don't think this is exactly his spot. He does great stuff but a lot of it doesn't feel like it comes from the ledge, he'll string together a wall of pain, but it can come from platform/stage. Other than the wall of pain from ledge they're usually stray hits to basically Armada shine or M2K dropzone reverse dolphin slash/bair leave them too far without a jump, but it doesnt have the same level of risk and is kind of just a different thing cause its puff with the jumps. I don't think I'm explaining this well, but not to say Hbox doesnt do amazing stuff but it just feels like puff stuff on the ledge isn't where he shines/excels
" Hungrybox won't tell you this, M2K won't tell you this, Hax$ WILL tell you this: *THE LEDGE IS FUCKING BROKEN!* " - Aziz "Hax Fucking Money" Al-Yami, 2017
this is not true you certainly cannot get 18 frames with gannons no impact land, you get 11 frames of actionable intangibility(edit to show i am incorrect here nut keeping up for context in further comments)
Leffen for sure. He was the first player to have perfect ledge dashes. He pretty much showed us that you need to hardly mix up your ledge options due to how good ledge dash is. Of course you can bait it out and out space the ledgedash but leffen really optimized it and showed how good it was
it depends , take pichu for example , he has to basically be touching the ledge to grab it , G&W tho , he can grab it from about 2 foxes away , quite a difference
iirc yoshi's up b stall frame perfect leaves 1 frame where he's not intangible. the down b is the safer one in terms of being fully invincible, but the egg on the up b can be used to cover the lack of intangibility during that one frame, since it also happens to be the frame it comes out, and the down b's hitbox comes out after intangibility is over, and thus in a position where he'd be unable to grab the ledge. if it were out.
Hax is so good at ledge teching that he makes you notice that everyone else could be doing their ledgedashes better. Hbox is great at using the ledge for coverage and start plays. M2k in his golden years was the best there was at edgeguarding of the ledge and then recovering.
Hax and Leffen. Fox invincible nair/upsmah/grab is amazing. Either it hits or the opponent forced to play back a bit and respect it which forfeits corner pressure.
Hey, does anyone know whether Marth's nil short hop from the ledge has invincibility? If so, how many frames does it have? What's the most invincible option that Marth has, getting back to the stage from the ledge?
Marth's NIL has 1 frame, he can get 4 from a ledgedash. Here's a table for all characters - smashboards.com/threads/kadanos-perfect-marth-class-advanced-frame-data-application.337035/page-20#post-16761069
Awesome video, just wish you would have covered AI too. AI is samus' best tool on the ledge but it's pretty hard on BY specifically. it would be cool to see you guys do a video on that to help new samus mains out 👌
probably armada, he never really messes up by the ledge, everyone else does because they choose harder options (because they need to with when playing non-peach), but armada seems to get ledge dashing consistent with his fox. Armada has mix ups and is just extremely solid at the ledge. mango and m2k are pretty similar and good from opposite sides of the spectrum, mango's good mixing things up sort of aggressively in a gambly type of way, whereas m2k is very patient (not always), which allows him to mix up his opponent based on that timing. hbox plays puff so whilst he's good on the ledge whenever he gets something for it, unfortunately it feels like his opponents are beating themselves moreso than him out playing them with mix ups. leffen was definitely the first top level fox to establish ledge dashing as the standard, others do it now as well but he really brought it into high level tournament sets, ledge dashing is hard when the pressures on.
I've been playing for around 2 months. Is it still a good idea to go to locals so soon after starting, even if I know I probably will end up getting obliterated? I'm just curious if there's a certain point where I might not get any value out of the match. If I get Jv 5'd within the first minute of playing i don't know if that will still help me improve. I could just have a bad mindset though
How much do you think the meta would change if Melee had Sm4sh ledge mechanic where you can ledge trump characters and only get invincibility on your first grab?
î hope that you know you need to make a third video with all the ways to get to the ledge for it to be all about the ledge ;) but great video as alwasy
@Jacob Pessirilo I began playing a year ago. After about four months of playing with my friends who began playing the same time I did, I felt like I'd gotten a grasp on L cancels, wave dashes, that stuff. After that I started playing netplay and got crushed most of the time. I still get crushed alot online but went to my first local a month ago and went 1-2 in both singles and doubles and had a ton of fun. If I'd gone to the local without ever playing online for a while I would of got crushed
Also, with Ganondorf, would it possibly be better to just no impact land on the stage instead of wave landing? His second jump is so tiny that I honestly wonder if that would make him actionable faster.
Andrew Ricklefs His nil is definitely faster in terms of when your actionable. Most of the time I'd prefer wavelanding because it puts me further from the ledge
New player here i was wondering what it is the best way to preform a platform waveland from the ledge iv been trying to do it and even when i do get it its extremely slow any help would be appreciated.
I wanna say Syrox because he uses Ledgedashing pretty damn well to cover any options that he can't cover from the ledge. But m2k plays the best from the ledge. That's what he built his career on.
Just thought I'd mention that you left out Pichu in the list of characters who can up b Ledge Stall, and left out Bowser in the list of characters who can double jump Ledge Stall.
M2k Marth for best options. he has good Arial drift and can side b to stall. Plus counter, and grab from ledge dash. there's many more but I can't type it all right now... I'm working
There's something I don't understand, why can't the buttons at the top be layered exactly as a GC controller? It looks kind of awkward in it's current state.
I've just picked up melee after many years and I'm not looking to play competitively but I'm looking to beat my friends because they always brag ... I'm confused as to what button / input it is to grab on to the ledge while falling off the map 😂 I know I'm that much of a noob but can someone tell me , my friends won't lol
Does anyone have tips for what Marth should do at the ledge? I'm a Marth main and I seem to get stuck at the ledge a lot and Marth has one of the worst ledge dashes.
ledgehop, aerial if they're too close, you can ledgedash+shield/grab immediately, regular getup is pretty fast but obviously mix it up. watch some videos on the subject, look at vods of m2k or ppmd and see what they do
also tomahawk ledgehop. As in like ledgehop empty land on the stage right by the edge. Definitely a mixup but 1) a lot of people expect you to come further in, so you can throw off people's edgeguard attempts 2) if you have a good read or have other reason to believe you can get away with it it can net you fsmash/grab/a ton of other things. Most importantly, doing this will force them to respect it, so if they come closer to ledge/throw out a hitbox further towards the edge of the stage, you can just ledgehop aerial and all of the sudden you've got a mixup battle from the ledge
samus has the best, hear me out : fast fall, then double jump, then wall jump, then charged shot and then air Dodge and THEN grapple to go back to the stage
@@lordofrage1209to do it without having any frames where you’re vulnerable, no, most characters can’t do that. Maybe in yoshis story more characters can do it? Idk though
Wizzy, because his ledgedashes are insane and his edgeguard game and ledge game are reaaally good (unlike another buster Falcon *COUGH* S2J *COUGH* ) Oh yeah and edit, I would've chosen M2K, not just because he's my favorite smasher but because his edgeguard game is amazing, but the thing is he SDs which is heartbreaking but true, and his ledge game sometimes sucks compared to how consistent Wizzy is with the ledge. :(
As someone who is relatively new to the competitive side of smash ( been watching and practicing for about a year and a half, never entered a tournament ) I wanna thank you guys working on this channel for making great informative videos, they truly help alot
@SAPPHIRE you entered a tourney yet?
the world may never know...
@@bubbles934 😭
"if you attack from ledge, you use your double jump and that's bad" *double video of mango double laser* All I hear is the moon saying "That's not safe"
Hax has the best ledge play for 3 reasons. First, he was the originator and person who popularized invincible ledgedashing giving him an understanding of the ledge that others didn't have. Second, his play style, especially as of late, is very ledge heavy. He uses it to get away from pressure and turn his disadvantageous position into an opening or even a kill. Finally, the main reason he is is because he is consistent with his ledgedashes. Whether the B0XX helps him or not, he is still going to get it 99/100 times. He rarely loses more than a 2 or 3 frames when ledgedashing.
Bonus point: He is Hax FUCKING Money. Bang for your buck bitches. $$$
Great vid. One minor correction though. Popo can also do a fully intangible ledge stall with up b, just not synced climbers.
Mango with double lasers
god dammit
thats not safe my guy
*obligatory kappa*
Nicholas Zacharias in that certain situation, I imply that safetyness isn't thought to be present my brethren
THAT'S NOT SAFE
Everyone has something good about their ledge game, but I think I'll have to go with M2K because he has consistently amazing edge guards with from ledge with both marth AND sheik too [and some pretty nice, maybe not risky/difficult, mixups like walll jump bair]. At first I was kind of hesitating on the M2K pick but an entire part of his identity is on the ledge, so you'll see many more instances of his ledge game than other players, with naturally SO MUCH MORE TIME there's bound to be more negative outcomes, but percentage wise he does amazing on the ledge
Some honorable mentions / food for thought:
Leffen: has some good use of tech and almost never misses rinse repeat walling bairs / option coverage
Armada: similar to leffen, Swedish stuff you know
Axe: does some nutty stuff and it often actually feels like it came out of the blue because he does so many different things / doesn't repeat some of it often which makes you wonder how much of it is idk efficient? or even viable?
N0ne: havent seen any comments on him, I mean why not? his off stage game is RIDICULOUSSSSS and he transitions between platform/ledge/stage AMAZINGLY, from the ledge he probably shows the most variety and options out there because THIS MAN HAS NO FEAR, but I will say no fear lets him do amazing things it also lets him SD here and there. You may argue the consistency isnt there but he has some pin point spots where he just keeps following through with the edgeguard covering SO MANY OPTIONS that you can tell its all very purposeful and many people wouldn't be able to anticipate/cover these things at all [maybe what I'm trying to say is... you can't fail if you never try and people don't try what n0ne does lol, but in a game where you can SD its reasonable not to try]
Wizzy: has some overlap with n0ne in the char/tech department, but VERY very different, don't think I need to mention much about Wizzy here [lots of other comments] but some key difference in ledge scenarios are N0ne is more likely to go deeeeep during the edgeguard [Wizzy is more likely to rinse repeat a safer otpion], and Wizzy is more likely to be patient and stall to recover stage control [n0ne may repeat a bit but will speed in with mixups for stage recovery?]
Hbox: I see a lot of hbox here and I don't think this is exactly his spot. He does great stuff but a lot of it doesn't feel like it comes from the ledge, he'll string together a wall of pain, but it can come from platform/stage. Other than the wall of pain from ledge they're usually stray hits to basically Armada shine or M2K dropzone reverse dolphin slash/bair leave them too far without a jump, but it doesnt have the same level of risk and is kind of just a different thing cause its puff with the jumps. I don't think I'm explaining this well, but not to say Hbox doesnt do amazing stuff but it just feels like puff stuff on the ledge isn't where he shines/excels
" Hungrybox won't tell you this, M2K won't tell you this, Hax$ WILL tell you this: *THE LEDGE IS FUCKING BROKEN!* "
- Aziz "Hax Fucking Money" Al-Yami, 2017
Dude you guys completely forgot Gannon's nil onstage, with 18 frames of intangiblity it's actually better than fox and pichu's ledgedashes
Douglas Delia what is NIL? I must know as a Ganon main
No Impact Lag
this is not true you certainly cannot get 18 frames with gannons no impact land, you get 11 frames of actionable intangibility(edit to show i am incorrect here nut keeping up for context in further comments)
No Impact Land
No mention of Ganon at all rip.
Never knew that Link was so gifted at quickly grabbing the ledge. That allows for much quicker ledgehop nairs off the hook shot.
Leffen for sure. He was the first player to have perfect ledge dashes. He pretty much showed us that you need to hardly mix up your ledge options due to how good ledge dash is. Of course you can bait it out and out space the ledgedash but leffen really optimized it and showed how good it was
M2K best ledge player, Leffen best at using advanced ledge options. Leff has the best ledge dashes and he's dope with laser lands and whatnot.
Does every character have the same distance to "snap" to the ledge or does it depend on grab range?
flyersfan28 magnet hands are all about your character's 'sweetspot' range.
it depends , take pichu for example , he has to basically be touching the ledge to grab it , G&W tho , he can grab it from about 2 foxes away , quite a difference
Just look up 'sweetspot'. Grab is an attack all it's own and has no relevance to ledge grabbing.
Marth's recovery would be amazing if his sweetspot range was as big as his grab range
Different characters have different ranges
Can you do a tutorial on how to use the debug menu, various modes, and other stuff in 20xx mod?
hey wheres part 4 of the tier list?
iirc yoshi's up b stall frame perfect leaves 1 frame where he's not intangible. the down b is the safer one in terms of being fully invincible, but the egg on the up b can be used to cover the lack of intangibility during that one frame, since it also happens to be the frame it comes out, and the down b's hitbox comes out after intangibility is over, and thus in a position where he'd be unable to grab the ledge. if it were out.
Love you Kira! ❤️ Thank you for these awesome videos!
Hax is so good at ledge teching that he makes you notice that everyone else could be doing their ledgedashes better. Hbox is great at using the ledge for coverage and start plays. M2k in his golden years was the best there was at edgeguarding of the ledge and then recovering.
Hax and Leffen. Fox invincible nair/upsmah/grab is amazing. Either it hits or the opponent forced to play back a bit and respect it which forfeits corner pressure.
No mention of samus' great ledge dash or her haxdash 🤔🤔
Hey, does anyone know whether Marth's nil short hop from the ledge has invincibility? If so, how many frames does it have? What's the most invincible option that Marth has, getting back to the stage from the ledge?
Marth's NIL has 1 frame, he can get 4 from a ledgedash. Here's a table for all characters - smashboards.com/threads/kadanos-perfect-marth-class-advanced-frame-data-application.337035/page-20#post-16761069
1:30 "that's not safe my guy"
Awesome video, just wish you would have covered AI too. AI is samus' best tool on the ledge but it's pretty hard on BY specifically. it would be cool to see you guys do a video on that to help new samus mains out 👌
probably armada, he never really messes up by the ledge, everyone else does because they choose harder options (because they need to with when playing non-peach), but armada seems to get ledge dashing consistent with his fox. Armada has mix ups and is just extremely solid at the ledge.
mango and m2k are pretty similar and good from opposite sides of the spectrum, mango's good mixing things up sort of aggressively in a gambly type of way, whereas m2k is very patient (not always), which allows him to mix up his opponent based on that timing.
hbox plays puff so whilst he's good on the ledge whenever he gets something for it, unfortunately it feels like his opponents are beating themselves moreso than him out playing them with mix ups.
leffen was definitely the first top level fox to establish ledge dashing as the standard, others do it now as well but he really brought it into high level tournament sets, ledge dashing is hard when the pressures on.
@Sapphire what's DJ cancel? I know it has to do with up b but that's about all I know
Didn't mention NILs as option or how the ECB is affected by the way the ledge is grabbed which in turn affects things like ledge-dashes.
What about ECB differences when grabbing the ledge in different ways? Or was that too niche for this video
You did not mention aerial interrupts and no impact landings.
Anyway, great video as always.
no up air interrupt coverage?
I've been playing for around 2 months. Is it still a good idea to go to locals so soon after starting, even if I know I probably will end up getting obliterated? I'm just curious if there's a certain point where I might not get any value out of the match. If I get Jv 5'd within the first minute of playing i don't know if that will still help me improve. I could just have a bad mindset though
How much do you think the meta would change if Melee had Sm4sh ledge mechanic where you can ledge trump characters and only get invincibility on your first grab?
Marth's recovery would be so good like damm
Leffens ledge game is phenomenal
î hope that you know you need to make a third video with all the ways to get to the ledge for it to be all about the ledge ;)
but great video as alwasy
I'm a falco main and I would like I if you did a falco mobility tutorial. Because I belive it is a huge part of his neutral and overall game.
Does being over 100% change intangibility frames gained from grabbing the ledge.
@Jacob Pessirilo I began playing a year ago. After about four months of playing with my friends who began playing the same time I did, I felt like I'd gotten a grasp on L cancels, wave dashes, that stuff. After that I started playing netplay and got crushed most of the time. I still get crushed alot online but went to my first local a month ago and went 1-2 in both singles and doubles and had a ton of fun. If I'd gone to the local without ever playing online for a while I would of got crushed
@zeke edwards they have done more falco exclusive stuff then any more character
still waiting for part 4 of the tier list
Can the next video be about Pikachu's up air? Luigi Dair? These are moves not well understood by most of the community
I'd say Hbox because other than rest. Puffs best way to kill is by edge guarding and following attack jumps off the map. M2K is solid too
1:31 a reminder to all Falco mains
YoshiGator nah just mango
Yes :3
YoshiGator that's not safe my guy
Sick inclusion of the Link ledge info
Also, with Ganondorf, would it possibly be better to just no impact land on the stage instead of wave landing? His second jump is so tiny that I honestly wonder if that would make him actionable faster.
Andrew Ricklefs His nil is definitely faster in terms of when your actionable. Most of the time I'd prefer wavelanding because it puts me further from the ledge
@@kennyfarmer3741 makes sense
Wow actually following up on a video after you said you were going to do it. Crazy stuff coming out of SSBM Tutorials
When is the next tier list part coming?
New player here i was wondering what it is the best way to preform a platform waveland from the ledge iv been trying to do it and even when i do get it its extremely slow any help would be appreciated.
I wanna say Syrox because he uses Ledgedashing pretty damn well to cover any options that he can't cover from the ledge. But m2k plays the best from the ledge. That's what he built his career on.
You should talk about vulnerability on getup attack and roll up both under 100% and over 100%
messing ledge hop (jump before frame 6) tourment winner OP
Mew2King certainly does the most with/at the ledge.
But Leffen has the crispiest ledge dashes
Mew2king is the king of the ledge options
How do I do a slow get up from the ledge???
I think axe uses ledge the best using up ledge cancels to get back on stage and he has great ledge dashes
Just thought I'd mention that you left out Pichu in the list of characters who can up b Ledge Stall, and left out Bowser in the list of characters who can double jump Ledge Stall.
I like how both of those ledge hop punish clips were of m2k
you guys dont intend to finish the tier list?
Doesn't Pikachu have a good ledge dash?
M2k Marth for best options. he has good Arial drift and can side b to stall. Plus counter, and grab from ledge dash. there's many more but I can't type it all right now... I'm working
I don't think you can side-b stall with Marth more than once before landing on stage.
Hax$ on the boxx is without a doubt the best from the ledge
There's something I don't understand, why can't the buttons at the top be layered exactly as a GC controller? It looks kind of awkward in it's current state.
The buttons up top are an in game feature of 20XX 4.06, ST wouldn't be able to change the layout.
Ah ok. Didn't know.
Bowser also has an invincible ledge drop jump ledgestall but it's hard to do.
Leffen probably uses ledge options the best and obviously Mew2king is the king of the ledge
How exactly can Ganondorf stall at ledge?
I think Pikachu is the best at edge guarding since the neutral B can shoot the players or "stick" to the stage
You should really do a video on some Yoshi tech!
I've just picked up melee after many years and
I'm not looking to play competitively but I'm looking to beat my friends because they always brag ... I'm confused as to what button / input it is to grab on to the ledge while falling off the map 😂 I know I'm that much of a noob but can someone tell me , my friends won't lol
Whers the tier list???
Does anyone have tips for what Marth should do at the ledge? I'm a Marth main and I seem to get stuck at the ledge a lot and Marth has one of the worst ledge dashes.
ledgehop, aerial if they're too close, you can ledgedash+shield/grab immediately, regular getup is pretty fast but obviously mix it up. watch some videos on the subject, look at vods of m2k or ppmd and see what they do
also tomahawk ledgehop. As in like ledgehop empty land on the stage right by the edge. Definitely a mixup but 1) a lot of people expect you to come further in, so you can throw off people's edgeguard attempts 2) if you have a good read or have other reason to believe you can get away with it it can net you fsmash/grab/a ton of other things. Most importantly, doing this will force them to respect it, so if they come closer to ledge/throw out a hitbox further towards the edge of the stage, you can just ledgehop aerial and all of the sudden you've got a mixup battle from the ledge
People don't realize how well Hax$ uses the ledge
how to combo with falco vs non fast fallers PLZZZZZZZXX
MANGO DOES
That's not saaaaafe
You forgot to mention that Luigi is crazy on the ledge and ledgedashing multiple times and back on to it
Can you make a videon on practicing Pikachu ?
samus has the best, hear me out : fast fall, then double jump, then wall jump, then charged shot and then air Dodge and THEN grapple to go back to the stage
2:07 ...That's only possible with 5 of the 26 characters in Melee. You should have clarified that.
Ledge stalling? I'm pretty sure all characters can do it on at least one tournament legal stage but idk
@@lordofrage1209to do it without having any frames where you’re vulnerable, no, most characters can’t do that. Maybe in yoshis story more characters can do it? Idk though
m2k or hax
Whats with the fps?
Probably borp
whens part 3?
Good side: use a safe option
Mango side: dewit
I just watched the first one :3
I just want more doc guides
Leffen best ledge options
M2king of the ledge
Ledge hop - double jump - double laser
Talks about not being predictable on the ledge. shows mango double lasering from the ledge. THAT'S NOT SAFE MY GUY.
hax's boxx with no patch is the best :^)
Obviously Mango with Double Lasers
Woo link with the fastest!
M2K is an actual Legdegod, but Wizzy is no slouch either.
Wizzy, because his ledgedashes are insane and his edgeguard game and ledge game are reaaally good (unlike another buster Falcon *COUGH* S2J *COUGH* )
Oh yeah and edit, I would've chosen M2K, not just because he's my favorite smasher but because his edgeguard game is amazing, but the thing is he SDs which is heartbreaking but true, and his ledge game sometimes sucks compared to how consistent Wizzy is with the ledge. :(
I don’t think I’ll ever be able to master these techniques.
@kirjian Borp is the best at everything
m2k is the ledge king surely?
ledge2king
Leffen definitely has the crispiest ledge dashes in the game but he fucks then up pretty often and dies
Make a Mewtwo tutorial!
They are called Lef-dashes for a reason....
Hbox should master S0ft dashing to improve his ledge game
Best by the ledge = aMSa Red yoshi hands down
M2k is the king of the ledge