funny how some glitch abuse revolutionized the fighting game style.. and still to this day .. melee is one of the most personal skill demanding competitive game out there because of those ''glitch abuse'' ... wavedash was one of the best thing discovered for melee , just like Bhop for great competitive fps games.. sometime those abuses make the game that much more interesting.
The cool part is, combos in traditional fighting games were never intended; combos first appeared in Street Fighter 2, and were a glitch in how the game handled inputs made during animations; the devs thought that performing timed links would be too hard for comboing to be a useful feature. The reason I bring that up is, Sakurai never thought there would be a real practical use for WaveDashing, or any of the other little things "wrong" with Melee. Funny how little accidents like this can influence the meta for a game's competitive future.
This was very detailed and professional. You made something I had previously thought to be complicated and simplified it very well. Thank you for your work on all the videos on this channel I'm improving a lot from watching and learning from your videos.
This is beautiful. Thank you so much for this video. I've spent many hours trying to figure out specific DI stuff, and I'd basically figured it out. But if I had seen this video 4 months ago... It would have saved me so much work! Thanks anyway Kira -Get around Falco lasers
It's a bit weird but I think it's awesome people are still making vids for SSBM. It's always been one of my favorite games and I think what you're doing is amazing. Taught me so much more mechanics about the game.
Thank god for your in-depth tutorial videos. Smash players seem to be god awful at making tutorial videos. Usually had potato quality videos, no close-up of the controller, and don't really show how it affects your play. Awesome work
davidabeats If someone watches his video while having adblock, the ad that the person could've watched is instead passed to the next person to watch the video. Your video isn't shown less ads because of adblock, it just passes ads on to the next eligible user.
I've actually found that you can SDI accidentally (at least I did anyway) just by normal survival or combo DI. There have been several situations where a fox player tries to up air me and I unintentionally SDI according to my survival DI.
Great vid, Kira! I just have two questions I'd like clarified/answered if possible :) 1. During multi-hit moves, you said to roll the analogue stick between the UL (upleft) and DL (downleft) knotches. You also said the c-stick also helps. Should the c-stick be a) Held in a direction before getting hit? If so, which direction? b) Held in a direction after getting hit? If so, which direction? c) Rolled between notches as well? 2. When you input the quarter-circle smash DI (or any smash DI for that matter), can the c-stick input be a different direction to your analogue stick smash DI or can it be different (e.g., up with analogue and left with c-stick)? Thanks again!
+MikamiHero a) held in the direction you'd like to DI, (straight left or right) b) held it there the whole time c) not rolled 2. it can be different, if you want more details check out Kadano's DI videos on youtube
That's just... Wrong. I can agree strategy might be more prominent. But camping and a good defense is basically most parts of smash 4, the neutral is played way different, roll reads are more prominent. Smash 4 and brawl are very slow, methodical neutral played games. But mind games are more important in melee imo. I acknowledge the strategic part of smash4.
Also smash 4's punish game isn't really that big aside from like with sheik, most you actually get might be like 2 piece down throw combos. I find that super boring. Smash 4 combos are even more brain dead due to just how flowchart they are. It's basically like pokes and getting a kill set up at late percents.
Thanks for uploading this. I have such a hard time with DI and SDI. It's so counter intuitive for me to not want to DI opposite of the direction of attack/knock back, and to do it at a perpendicular vector (survival DI). Smash DI always escapes me until well after I get hit.
this sounds really dumb, but can you make a video on how to effectly hold the game cube controller and reccommend what buttons to press for L canceling, or Wave dashing, etc.. and can you also make a step by step video for noobs who want to get into compeitive smash but do no not what to start with first. thank you!
+Dark Destiny3 There is no best way for the most part, many top players use unconventional methods and do them just fine. As for new players, you can check our "How to Learn Melee" playlist or check out Wak's video: th-cam.com/video/4n4s5yB7ZkE/w-d-xo.html
+Dark Destiny3 i started playing melee about a year ago, and the best advice is to start just play the game! dont worry about too much about super complex stuff, just focus on getting some basic tech incorporated into your play, like short hop airiels and learning the feeling for how your moves hit and how to set up some combos. the better you get the more you will understand how to do the more complicated tech, you gotta remember that although it is a competitive game, the reason we play it is because its so damn fun! i hope this helps a little, remember how i said i started a year ago? im just learning multishines now! melee is amazing because there is always something to learn
This video is very misleading. First of all, you don't have to smash the C-stick, even though you repeatedly showed both sticks being smashed. Secondly, holding both sticks in the same direction is totally redundant. If you keep holding the control stick after attempting the SDI, it will input an ASDI at the end of hitlag. Thirdly, despite the name, ASDI does not allow you to automatically Smash DI... It is a totally unique function from SDI both in terms of how far you go as well as its limitations (e.g. you don't go as far from ASDI and you can ASDI into the ground, but cannot SDI into it).
+Bones0 It's sad because so much of this info is readily available on the web. Unfortunately, it's surprisingly common for high-level players to have a less-than-perfect grasp of these mechanics.
+Bones0 You don't want to hit c-stick before the first hit, ASDI only applies at the end of the moves hitlag. If you were to start holding c-stick before the move in neutral you would just smash attack, the idea is to start holding the c-stick after the first frame of hitlag and hold until the end of it, there is no misinformation there. He even clarified in multi-hit moves to just hold the stick for the duration after the first hit, honestly the only problem with the video is that he didn't explain the unique properties of ASDI like re-grounding, but honestly it isn't that bad that he didn't include it. It doesn't make anything else in the video wrong.
Nightcore Lullaby I never said the video is wrong, I said it is misleading in its presentation. It's very unlikely that you would do a smash attack trying to DI because you usually aren't standing in a neutral stance when you have to DI (if you were, you'd probably just shield and not get hit at all). I am talking about the most common situations such as ASDIing during lag or hitstun. I frequently use the C-stick to ASDI in order to ground tech moves while DIing at a different trajectory, and holding it before I get hit is WAY easier than trying to time it during hitlag.
So ideally, would you want to smash DI EVERY time you get hit to avoid getting combo'd? Obviously it's a bit tough to do it every time, but in an ideal world? Or are there situations you wouldn't want to or shouldn't be trying to?
***** You don't guess DI, you react to DI. There are certain percents where pivot grabbing is required to complete it fully, and you still have to react to the DI..
Good video, I already understood the inputs, but the video was certainly helpful on knowing the correct inputs for what moves. This will help me fix my West Coast DI! XD
Owain FireEmblem Fox's neutral game can vary and work extremely differently against different characters depending on how it mends with your playstyle. What you're really asking for is a matchup specific neutral game guide, because the way Fox plays against a Puff or a Samus isn't at all the same as you would use against another spacie.
Controller's are made to withstand these things. And if you got one of the new exclusive Smash GameCube controllers, although I'm not sure, they were probably made even more resilient!
Holy. Been trying to figure out DI for like a year. I'm still confused, but this made it 90% clearer. Thanks. Things I'm confused about. Does wiggling the control stick along a side buffer a bunch of movements in that direction, or just allows you to input more directions per frame? I'm thinking the latter. For beginner competitive players, playing against likely intermediate players, what is the optimal DI method for, for example, a forward air from Sheik?
Just allows you to input more directions. To survive sheik's fair, DI up and slightly towards her. But at super low percents, characters like Peach or Samus would rather DI it away and slightly downwards to get away from her
Great video. I guess I didn't know what SDI was in actually. I'd request a video for dealing with Falco lasers and/or Spacie approaches. It's something I've had a lot of trouble with and would like to see some ways of dealing with them.
I feel like for quarter circle DI it would be hard to use it in a worthwhile way because you would have to react within frames of being hit, when if you reacted in a different way it would be possible to ignore the hit all together.
BitComet That is scheduled soon, sorry about the delay on that one. We are going to be placing more emphasis on new players in the future (while still releasing relevant videos for intermediate players)
If I'm about to get hit by a fox upair, can I preemtively use the "jiggle method" (going past the same notch many times), in hopes of getting some SDIs when I'm hit by the first hitbox? Since there's no "SDI cooldown" like the 40 frames for teching, it seems like just trying to start SDI-rolling your control stick ahead of time is way superior to trying to time it to the hit.
How is it more consistent to time it? The only way to fuck up is to not jiggle fast enough. It's not too hard to do right afaik, and you're pretty much guaranteed at least 1 SDI and 1 ASDI, whereas if you try to time it, you might not even get the ASDI.
normally you need like at least 2 inputs within like a 5 frame window... its very easy to not jiggle fast enough. some people still do that method tho but i think its less consistent unless the opponent is very deliberate about mixing up his upair timings, which doesnt happen till like mango/leffen level. even SFAT apparently doesnt do it that often if you watch leffens analysis of SFAT vs HBox maybe if you're not experienced with getting upthrow upair'd then it'd be harder to time but eventually everyone will get there
What I fail to see is how trying to time the SDI will net you the 2 inputs during the 5 frames more often than using the jiggle method. Also, even if you do hit the SDI timing by smashing the control stick, you still have to input a new angle afterwards.
What do you think about preemptively mashing a direction/rolling the stick if your are in lag from whiffing or in hitstun (say after getting up thrown by fox) in the hopes that one of your inputs will land during hitlag, rather than just trying to perfectly time it which for low hitlag moves like jab or even first hit of up air seems almost impossible to me right now :/ Really great video, and thanks for all your hard work Kira!
Questions 1) does rolling the c stick over the notches similar to joystick do anything to assist your di? 2) you mentioned risk of not 'getting back to regular di fast enough', well if your joystick is already flush to the side(going over as many 45 notches possible) wouldn't the only slight risk there not getting the upward angle recovery? or does the joystick need to be stationary before exiting hit-lag frames to register regular di? 3) relates to 2, if I know I'm going to get hit by a knee, why not preemptively start spamming sdi over the 135 deg notch instead of risking mistiming with swipe method? I realize these are weird questions, although I've been playing a while di is a mystery to me, any help would be appreciated
1. no the c stick only does 1 input of SDI so only whichever direction it is in at the end of hitlag 2. well at the end of hitlag it will register normal DI, honestly you should be able to get back to regular DI pretty quickly so it's not that much of a risk 3. spamming it will just waste movements befoer you get there, you will generally find more success by timing it as you get hit. even if it's possible to mis-time it, you will mis-time it way more often by pre-emptively spamming
Hey Kira. Great vid! I noticed you're using the new sm4sh controller. How does it feel? I was thinking of getting a new controller for melee and want some opinions on it
MegaQwertification I think it is the best one. I highly recommend replacing the shoulder buttons if possible, they are awful, but everything else is top tier
I am confused about a couple of things. First off, I know this is a noob question but when you di a throw like fox's up-throw, do you use smash di or regular di? Also, why does smash di for moves like Falcons knee matter? If it only affects where you end up at the end of hit stun, how can smash di make a big difference. Any answer would be appreciated, thanks in advanced.
monjuele Fox's up throw, use both monjuele for falcon's knee, that is a very good question, I do not know the full answer except that it very much makes a difference. I believe that most of it is because it can change your trajectory which allows you to live longer. Ask Kadano tbh LOL
So, you ASDI in whatever direction you hold the c stick in. If that's the case, wouldn't you be more likely to survive by holding towards the center of the stage instead of hard down?
There is misinformation in this video, quartercircles allow you to get multiple sdi inputs in the same direction much more effectively than tapping multiple times. There is actually no reason to tap the stick in the same direction then return to neutral then tap again, quartercircles are simply better.
I notice you use the Smash Bros edition GC controller. I just ordered one this morning but I've noticed that there aren't really any reviews for the controller (in perspective of a Smash player). I know it's made by Nintendo but is the same as the original GC controllers?
I've put aside time solely for: Wavedashing, tri-platform movement, dash dancing and SHFFL-ing and I think the movement stick has loosened up. The buttons were fine regardless imo, no problems with shorthopping even with Sheik. Idk if I just get used to the higher resistance or they got looser or both. Probably the last. Either way, amazing controller. The D-pad and Start button are really off though, they feel too squishy but luckily they are the least important buttons.
How about a samus vs spaces video? I know she has a good match up but I still don't know how to use the tools she has effectively against them, especially against fox. Which is resulting in me being the worst samus in my scene...
Edgeguarding spacies, Marth, and Sheik with Luigi tutorial. That's what I want, but I'll probably just watch a bunch of top level Liogi players edgegurad them, and then I won't need it, but if u can, I would really like it if u made that
+William Leach think of it like this. The shine is just another button input that can be added onto the wavedash input. Wavedash being jump, angled l/r. So for waveshines start your analog at the bottom notch, hit b, jump out of shine, re angle your analog stick to wavedash, and input l/r button. Its all about timing so think of it like the shine is just an addition to the wavedash that comes after.
for step 3 smash DI, if i need to DI down would i start from the 12 o'clock position and move my analog down or would i still start from the 6 o'clock position
If someone's hitting me with, let's say, a multi hit move (like Pk fire or something) would I just DI away normally or smash DI? Or can you do both? If it's both I assume you would roll the control stick in the direction up and down and then eventually hold it? I'm a bit confused as how to "switch" between SDI and DI.
Zelkovan I would roll the control stick up and down until I'm out of the PK Fire. For multi-hit moves you don't really need to think about normal DI it will happen
2011super It's a super hard and advanced technique. If you haven't mastered other things already I wouldn't even attempt to do this. To put it into perspective, I've been playing for like 7 years (on and off) and I still mess this up sometimes
Hey kira, What should I treat fox uair as? A KO move or a multi hit move? Or which would be the easiest way to SDI it? I have a lot of trouble being consistent with it. Thanks.
Hey thanks for covering smash di but i dont understand meteor smash di i know you up b at the right moment but i see players who are able to cover this into many different scenarios to sum it up how do you di a spike / meteor smash?
Rok XY if you don't di toward your opponent as well as up you won't have the di to pull you in towards the stage, you'll only go upwards causing you still to die the same as you would with no di
The evidence, of course, being that they haven't removed it in the next two iterations of the game, something they did with many (most) of the mechanics that were either too strong or unintentional.
Is there ANY way I can practice DI/SDI alone? I do have the most recent 20XX hack pack on my laptop with a gc adapter but, lag :S. My other option would be a GC with 20XX TE.
There is something that i don't understood, if the C-stick overrides the normal stick wouldn't it be beneficial to input normal DI with the control stick and SDI with the C-stick? (Instead of flicking both to the same side.)
so im clear, My whole life ive survival DI'd like this Smashed Horizontal (to the right): Hold up diagonal left Smashed Vertical: Hold to the side But recently someone told me that you should just hold toward the stage (smashed horizontal to right would then be: hold left, and smashed vertical would be hold down . . .) which is right?
sketch nin Maybe that someone was a smash4 player at its first versions, where to survive, you had to input what they told ya. In melee, you're doing it right.
Let's say I am Di'ing in on a Captain Falcon Up air string. I have lost y double jump and i'm just blindly holding in. To SDI do I have to reset my sticks to neutral? OR is the SDI being input each time the Captain hits me with the upair. This is the only part of DI and SDI that i cant grasp. Do the control sticks need to be reset to neutral to input DI/SDI or is just holding them in a certain direction a constant source of input.
+John Paine It will give it 1 SDI input. It doesn't need to be reset to neutral but just one input won;t change much so you'll want to try and get more inputs. Also, why are you blindly holding in against upairs lol
I have seen this video several times and I still cant get how I should SDI. Should I hold both the Stick and the C-stick in the same direction I want to SDI or what? For example: When I SDI Fox's up air, do I have to hold both sticks up during first hit's hitlag?
+TheZabo56 For fox's up air I would just hold the C stick to one side and slap the control stick to that side also. It's somewhat redundant but there's no harm in adding the c stick
Yeah I needed this info for Ultimate now that I own a smash game for the first time in my life so thanks, but goddamn can I not get over the fact that you smash players call recovery frames and hitstun "lag". Coming from a traditional fighting game backround and talking to my cousin (who put more time in smash than in any other fighting game out there) is the weirdest thing sometimes because he'll say lag and I'll think he's referring to the online match.
its crazy how complex this game is
Shadow Master why does that matter. Its still crazy how complex the game is
Shadow Master
bait?
TheGhettoLobster shouldnt be that exploitable in the first place
funny how some glitch abuse revolutionized the fighting game style.. and still to this day .. melee is one of the most personal skill demanding competitive game out there because of those ''glitch abuse'' ... wavedash was one of the best thing discovered for melee , just like Bhop for great competitive fps games.. sometime those abuses make the game that much more interesting.
The cool part is, combos in traditional fighting games were never intended; combos first appeared in Street Fighter 2, and were a glitch in how the game handled inputs made during animations; the devs thought that performing timed links would be too hard for comboing to be a useful feature.
The reason I bring that up is, Sakurai never thought there would be a real practical use for WaveDashing, or any of the other little things "wrong" with Melee.
Funny how little accidents like this can influence the meta for a game's competitive future.
"But don't fret if you're a newcomer, we're going to explain those things (DI) later"
Year goes by
"How To DI" is uploaded today. Hahahaha
The notch angles around the stick are 135 degrees, not 90 degrees. If they were 90, it would be a square instead of an octagon.
they're 45 degrees lol
They're 100% not 45 degrees. That would be even worse than 90.
My Friends Call me Coach each notch is 45 degrees away from the other one
We're measuring the angle of each notch though.
My Friends Call me Coach ok
This was very detailed and professional. You made something I had previously thought to be complicated and simplified it very well. Thank you for your work on all the videos on this channel I'm improving a lot from watching and learning from your videos.
This is beautiful. Thank you so much for this video. I've spent many hours trying to figure out specific DI stuff, and I'd basically figured it out. But if I had seen this video 4 months ago... It would have saved me so much work! Thanks anyway Kira
-Get around Falco lasers
playing smash (mainly melee) since 2006 I never really knew how that works, this is crazy, thanks !
It's a bit weird but I think it's awesome people are still making vids for SSBM. It's always been one of my favorite games and I think what you're doing is amazing. Taught me so much more mechanics about the game.
Qwenter Thank you. It's only going to get bigger!
@@SSBMTutorials Pretty cool seeing this comment in 2023 lol.
@@intendedtendencies melee's going to survive 2100 tbf 😂
@@captaincaption but will it survive 20XX
Thank god for your in-depth tutorial videos. Smash players seem to be god awful at making tutorial videos. Usually had potato quality videos, no close-up of the controller, and don't really show how it affects your play. Awesome work
Nominate running shine!
run, crouch, shine
@@farleydbear You have to shine, jump to cancel it, air dodge into the ground, and then repeat.
thats a waveshine, not running shine
i dont even have an ad blocker
but after that intro, I sure as hell downloaded one
***** LOL well it won't stop you from seeing it =P
SSBM Tutorials FYI, adblock doesn't prevent you from making money, you make money from ads based off video views, not ad views.
zackolot ad views make money too, him downloading ad block means the OP makes less money, but still money
davidabeats If someone watches his video while having adblock, the ad that the person could've watched is instead passed to the next person to watch the video. Your video isn't shown less ads because of adblock, it just passes ads on to the next eligible user.
are you certain that is how it works? Do you have a source or anything
I've actually found that you can SDI accidentally (at least I did anyway) just by normal survival or combo DI. There have been several situations where a fox player tries to up air me and I unintentionally SDI according to my survival DI.
That's just the single flick di he mentioned disincluding the c stick. Or it could be bad spacing on the fox making you think you're SDIing
1:11 did anyone hear jigglypuff say:" JIGGULYPAUFFFFFFFF"
1:10 satan has been reborn in a puffball
Great vid, Kira! I just have two questions I'd like clarified/answered if possible :)
1. During multi-hit moves, you said to roll the analogue stick between the UL (upleft) and DL (downleft) knotches. You also said the c-stick also helps. Should the c-stick be
a) Held in a direction before getting hit? If so, which direction?
b) Held in a direction after getting hit? If so, which direction?
c) Rolled between notches as well?
2. When you input the quarter-circle smash DI (or any smash DI for that matter), can the c-stick input be a different direction to your analogue stick smash DI or can it be different (e.g., up with analogue and left with c-stick)?
Thanks again!
+MikamiHero
a) held in the direction you'd like to DI, (straight left or right)
b) held it there the whole time
c) not rolled
2. it can be different, if you want more details check out Kadano's DI videos on youtube
and....... its nerfed in smash 4 just like everything else
the metapod Even fun
CompeteComplete especially fun
CompeteComplete plz
That's just... Wrong. I can agree strategy might be more prominent. But camping and a good defense is basically most parts of smash 4, the neutral is played way different, roll reads are more prominent. Smash 4 and brawl are very slow, methodical neutral played games. But mind games are more important in melee imo. I acknowledge the strategic part of smash4.
Also smash 4's punish game isn't really that big aside from like with sheik, most you actually get might be like 2 piece down throw combos. I find that super boring. Smash 4 combos are even more brain dead due to just how flowchart they are. It's basically like pokes and getting a kill set up at late percents.
Thanks for uploading this. I have such a hard time with DI and SDI. It's so counter intuitive for me to not want to DI opposite of the direction of attack/knock back, and to do it at a perpendicular vector (survival DI). Smash DI always escapes me until well after I get hit.
***** Don't you mean perpendicular?
Bolt892 Good catch. I was tired as heck when I wrote that.
this sounds really dumb, but can you make a video on how to effectly hold the game cube controller and reccommend what buttons to press for L canceling, or Wave dashing, etc..
and can you also make a step by step video for noobs who want to get into compeitive smash but do no not what to start with first.
thank you!
+Dark Destiny3 There is no best way for the most part, many top players use unconventional methods and do them just fine.
As for new players, you can check our "How to Learn Melee" playlist or check out Wak's video: th-cam.com/video/4n4s5yB7ZkE/w-d-xo.html
SSBM Tutorials thanks man.
+Dark Destiny3 i started playing melee about a year ago, and the best advice is to start just play the game! dont worry about too much about super complex stuff, just focus on getting some basic tech incorporated into your play, like short hop airiels and learning the feeling for how your moves hit and how to set up some combos. the better you get the more you will understand how to do the more complicated tech, you gotta remember that although it is a competitive game, the reason we play it is because its so damn fun! i hope this helps a little, remember how i said i started a year ago? im just learning multishines now! melee is amazing because there is always something to learn
Lolz... Never mind guys... I got into competitive play
+Dark's POP Game Reviews wat
1:55 BABY YOU LIGHT UP MY WORLD LIKE NOBODY ELSE!!!
This video is very misleading. First of all, you don't have to smash the C-stick, even though you repeatedly showed both sticks being smashed. Secondly, holding both sticks in the same direction is totally redundant. If you keep holding the control stick after attempting the SDI, it will input an ASDI at the end of hitlag. Thirdly, despite the name, ASDI does not allow you to automatically Smash DI... It is a totally unique function from SDI both in terms of how far you go as well as its limitations (e.g. you don't go as far from ASDI and you can ASDI into the ground, but cannot SDI into it).
Was about to post a similar comment, not willing to nitpicking here but there's a bunch of misinformation in this video yeah...
+BSeeD06 omf thank you, i knew something dounded weird about this tutorial. dp you have a video up? I will be glad to watch it
+Bones0 It's sad because so much of this info is readily available on the web. Unfortunately, it's surprisingly common for high-level players to have a less-than-perfect grasp of these mechanics.
+Bones0 You don't want to hit c-stick before the first hit, ASDI only applies at the end of the moves hitlag. If you were to start holding c-stick before the move in neutral you would just smash attack, the idea is to start holding the c-stick after the first frame of hitlag and hold until the end of it, there is no misinformation there. He even clarified in multi-hit moves to just hold the stick for the duration after the first hit, honestly the only problem with the video is that he didn't explain the unique properties of ASDI like re-grounding, but honestly it isn't that bad that he didn't include it. It doesn't make anything else in the video wrong.
Nightcore Lullaby I never said the video is wrong, I said it is misleading in its presentation. It's very unlikely that you would do a smash attack trying to DI because you usually aren't standing in a neutral stance when you have to DI (if you were, you'd probably just shield and not get hit at all). I am talking about the most common situations such as ASDIing during lag or hitstun. I frequently use the C-stick to ASDI in order to ground tech moves while DIing at a different trajectory, and holding it before I get hit is WAY easier than trying to time it during hitlag.
So ideally, would you want to smash DI EVERY time you get hit to avoid getting combo'd? Obviously it's a bit tough to do it every time, but in an ideal world? Or are there situations you wouldn't want to or shouldn't be trying to?
+WIZA327 Pretty mchh always smash di. There are times where you want to do slight DI and don't want to go as far as possible but yeah
yeah
Don't worry, it will be easier in the year 20XX
Marth chain grab vs spacies!
Up throw grab, it's easy
Stone Austin It's way harder then that
Stone Austin You obviously don't know what it is. ALL THE MORE REASON TO HAVE A TUTORIAL ON IT!
its easy
***** You don't guess DI, you react to DI. There are certain percents where pivot grabbing is required to complete it fully, and you still have to react to the DI..
I avoided fox's up-throw up-air
+FM360 in which direction did you SDI=?
+Raindrop Head Be nice.
Sorry I just don't understand.Like, which way WOULD you SDI to get away from a move that sends you upwards
+Raindrop Head Down for style points
+Raindrop Head 0:03
3:20 A good scenario to mention would have been peach's dair when she's edgeguarding.
finally, an explanation of sdi that makes sense. this is awesome.
Good video, I already understood the inputs, but the video was certainly helpful on knowing the correct inputs for what moves. This will help me fix my West Coast DI! XD
Do a normal DI video. That would be so helpful to know the directions I should DI in to stay alive for specific moves
Can the c stick input be held before i get hit or must it be during hitlag frames for ASDI ?
BizerkPixel can be held before u get hit
SSBM Tutorials cool thnx
+SSBM Tutorials does that mean i can just hold the c stick after being thrown up by fox to avoid the up air?
yes that works for the C stick input, but it's not enough on it's own, you should add the control stick as well
wow thanks for the response! your videos are great, Kira!
I KEEP ASKING FOR THE FOX DAMN NEUTRAL GAME
shoot lasers
Yeah and occasionally use aerials
Owain FireEmblem Fox's neutral game can vary and work extremely differently against different characters depending on how it mends with your playstyle. What you're really asking for is a matchup specific neutral game guide, because the way Fox plays against a Puff or a Samus isn't at all the same as you would use against another spacie.
Owain FireEmblem neutral cant really be learned from a video :/
So I refreshed the page, then turned off adblock. But fox's up-throw, up-air still gets me everytime.
this sounds like a contoller killer
Controller's are made to withstand these things. And if you got one of the new exclusive Smash GameCube controllers, although I'm not sure, they were probably made even more resilient!
Great guide. Thanks Kira and crew!
Woww shit makes so much sense. I always just held one direction derp.
Sheik Neutral part 2, sheik edgeguarding, and needle game!
Holy. Been trying to figure out DI for like a year. I'm still confused, but this made it 90% clearer. Thanks.
Things I'm confused about. Does wiggling the control stick along a side buffer a bunch of movements in that direction, or just allows you to input more directions per frame? I'm thinking the latter.
For beginner competitive players, playing against likely intermediate players, what is the optimal DI method for, for example, a forward air from Sheik?
Just allows you to input more directions.
To survive sheik's fair, DI up and slightly towards her. But at super low percents, characters like Peach or Samus would rather DI it away and slightly downwards to get away from her
Can you do like a edge guarding tutorial if you haven't already? Btw really like these tutorials!!
throw out attacks and wavedash to ledge
SSBM should make an update of this using 20xx's new DI draw. It makes it so much more easier to understand all types of DI (at least for me)
Great video. I guess I didn't know what SDI was in actually.
I'd request a video for dealing with Falco lasers and/or Spacie approaches. It's something I've had a lot of trouble with and would like to see some ways of dealing with them.
Now I see why many GC controllers' joysticks are murdered haha! Thanks for the tut :D!
the quick hit di was super helpful thanks a lot man
DI is y favorite part of the game, i love when my friends hit me with crazy shit and look at me with such didain after i survvie =)
Are u going to do a normal di tutorial ?
I figured all this out on accident, kinda like when you turn in a racing game and you lean that way, I did that with the sticks.
You can even SDI Puff's rest move and live. I was Peach the other day and was rested at 50hp and lived.
Peach intermediate tutorial!!!
Mezzanyne YES PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YEEEEEEEES
I feel like for quarter circle DI it would be hard to use it in a worthwhile way because you would have to react within frames of being hit, when if you reacted in a different way it would be possible to ignore the hit all together.
you basically have to react with *both,* it seems
@@jongyon7192p wow I wrote that 7 years ago time flies
@@connord999 lol yeah
This game is insanity
Do how to learn melee 1.4 next, please!
BitComet That is scheduled soon, sorry about the delay on that one. We are going to be placing more emphasis on new players in the future (while still releasing relevant videos for intermediate players)
Question when you use c stick for sdi does it sdi in direction of c stick or the control stick
C stick overrides control stick if they are in different directions
Ok, thank you
If I'm about to get hit by a fox upair, can I preemtively use the "jiggle method" (going past the same notch many times), in hopes of getting some SDIs when I'm hit by the first hitbox?
Since there's no "SDI cooldown" like the 40 frames for teching, it seems like just trying to start SDI-rolling your control stick ahead of time is way superior to trying to time it to the hit.
it can work sometimes but it's more consistent to time it
How is it more consistent to time it? The only way to fuck up is to not jiggle fast enough. It's not too hard to do right afaik, and you're pretty much guaranteed at least 1 SDI and 1 ASDI, whereas if you try to time it, you might not even get the ASDI.
normally you need like at least 2 inputs within like a 5 frame window... its very easy to not jiggle fast enough. some people still do that method tho but i think its less consistent unless the opponent is very deliberate about mixing up his upair timings, which doesnt happen till like mango/leffen level. even SFAT apparently doesnt do it that often if you watch leffens analysis of SFAT vs HBox
maybe if you're not experienced with getting upthrow upair'd then it'd be harder to time but eventually everyone will get there
What I fail to see is how trying to time the SDI will net you the 2 inputs during the 5 frames more often than using the jiggle method.
Also, even if you do hit the SDI timing by smashing the control stick, you still have to input a new angle afterwards.
iono i just have more success with timing it. if you have more success jiggling then by all means jiggle away
You already know... Marth chain grab vs spacies !!11!!1!!!
Please do a video on Ledge hop double laser with falco! I struggle on this the most
kapzillion1997 coming soon tm
Legend say M2k mind set is still focused on frames
What do you think about preemptively mashing a direction/rolling the stick if your are in lag from whiffing or in hitstun (say after getting up thrown by fox) in the hopes that one of your inputs will land during hitlag, rather than just trying to perfectly time it which for low hitlag moves like jab or even first hit of up air seems almost impossible to me right now :/
Really great video, and thanks for all your hard work Kira!
+Stelio Furner Much better to time it, just have to predict
Marth up throw chaingrab vs spacies and thank you Based Smash Tutorials
Questions
1) does rolling the c stick over the notches similar to joystick do anything to assist your di?
2) you mentioned risk of not 'getting back to regular di fast enough', well if your joystick is already flush to the side(going over as many 45 notches possible) wouldn't the only slight risk there not getting the upward angle recovery? or does the joystick need to be stationary before exiting hit-lag frames to register regular di?
3) relates to 2, if I know I'm going to get hit by a knee, why not preemptively start spamming sdi over the 135 deg notch instead of risking mistiming with swipe method?
I realize these are weird questions, although I've been playing a while di is a mystery to me, any help would be appreciated
1. no the c stick only does 1 input of SDI so only whichever direction it is in at the end of hitlag
2. well at the end of hitlag it will register normal DI, honestly you should be able to get back to regular DI pretty quickly so it's not that much of a risk
3. spamming it will just waste movements befoer you get there, you will generally find more success by timing it as you get hit. even if it's possible to mis-time it, you will mis-time it way more often by pre-emptively spamming
Really good video. It would help to use slow motion during the side by side comparisons though. Otherwise, high quality stuff here
I will never turn off adblock
Hey Kira. Great vid! I noticed you're using the new sm4sh controller. How does it feel? I was thinking of getting a new controller for melee and want some opinions on it
MegaQwertification I think it is the best one. I highly recommend replacing the shoulder buttons if possible, they are awful, but everything else is top tier
not sure but they get stuck and feel awful compared to others. you may not notice at first if you haven't been playing long but they aren't well made
ALL MIGHTY SHENRON, finally my wish! Thanks so much man! Fox Neutral?
NO DON'T HELP THE SPACIES
laser + shorthop aerial + shine
right now i have more crumbs on my shirt then i do dignity
I am confused about a couple of things. First off, I know this is a noob question but when you di a throw like fox's up-throw, do you use smash di or regular di? Also, why does smash di for moves like Falcons knee matter? If it only affects where you end up at the end of hit stun, how can smash di make a big difference. Any answer would be appreciated, thanks in advanced.
monjuele Fox's up throw, use both
monjuele for falcon's knee, that is a very good question, I do not know the full answer except that it very much makes a difference. I believe that most of it is because it can change your trajectory which allows you to live longer. Ask Kadano tbh LOL
+SSBM Tutorials ok thanks a lot and this video really helped!
So, you ASDI in whatever direction you hold the c stick in. If that's the case, wouldn't you be more likely to survive by holding towards the center of the stage instead of hard down?
Four Clover ASDI is very minimal, it just barely helps. And yes, most of the time I am holding the C-stick straight towards the center of the stage
I would appreciate both sides of the marth vs sheik match up
There is misinformation in this video, quartercircles allow you to get multiple sdi inputs in the same direction much more effectively than tapping multiple times. There is actually no reason to tap the stick in the same direction then return to neutral then tap again, quartercircles are simply better.
effervescenteagle thats exactly what he said....
I had heard that the best way to smash do was using the c-stick and rolling the joystick. And should you point the sticks in different directions?
Very informative, thanks for explaining clearly!
Wait, Kira, how did you know that I wanted a SDI tutorial?
Jake Mitchell A million people commented on the last video. Check the description, people vote for what comes next
SSBM Tutorials Okay. Thanks!
I notice you use the Smash Bros edition GC controller. I just ordered one this morning but I've noticed that there aren't really any reviews for the controller (in perspective of a Smash player). I know it's made by Nintendo but is the same as the original GC controllers?
No, the buttons and control stocks have more resistance (bad in the metagame)
Backward Out of Dawn shiiit. Do they loosen up over time?
CryMan McBosselot I'm not sure, I didn't have mine for very long, but it probably does if you play intensely
I've put aside time solely for: Wavedashing, tri-platform movement, dash dancing and SHFFL-ing and I think the movement stick has loosened up. The buttons were fine regardless imo, no problems with shorthopping even with Sheik. Idk if I just get used to the higher resistance or they got looser or both. Probably the last. Either way, amazing controller. The D-pad and Start button are really off though, they feel too squishy but luckily they are the least important buttons.
Crying Ocelot I guess you had better luck with the controllers. Hope you do well with them.
How about a samus vs spaces video? I know she has a good match up but I still don't know how to use the tools she has effectively against them, especially against fox. Which is resulting in me being the worst samus in my scene...
I vote to how to learn melee 4
Edgeguarding spacies, Marth, and Sheik with Luigi tutorial. That's what I want, but I'll probably just watch a bunch of top level Liogi players edgegurad them, and then I won't need it, but if u can, I would really like it if u made that
Great video, mate!
Think you could do a running shine / waveshine tutorial next?
TheOmnitaco Yes! A waveshine tutorial would be great
+William Leach think of it like this. The shine is just another button input that can be added onto the wavedash input. Wavedash being jump, angled l/r. So for waveshines start your analog at the bottom notch, hit b, jump out of shine, re angle your analog stick to wavedash, and input l/r button. Its all about timing so think of it like the shine is just an addition to the wavedash that comes after.
for step 3 smash DI, if i need to DI down would i start from the 12 o'clock position and move my analog down or would i still start from the 6 o'clock position
If someone's hitting me with, let's say, a multi hit move (like Pk fire or something) would I just DI away normally or smash DI? Or can you do both? If it's both I assume you would roll the control stick in the direction up and down and then eventually hold it? I'm a bit confused as how to "switch" between SDI and DI.
Zelkovan I would roll the control stick up and down until I'm out of the PK Fire. For multi-hit moves you don't really need to think about normal DI it will happen
What does the c stick input does? is that vanilla melee?
I don't think I can do it guys....I think I'm too stupid
2011super It's a super hard and advanced technique. If you haven't mastered other things already I wouldn't even attempt to do this.
To put it into perspective, I've been playing for like 7 years (on and off) and I still mess this up sometimes
SSBM Tutorials Do you have a project M?
nope!
...harsh
Do we smash di in the direction we're flying in or just smash di in the same direction lmao
Hey kira,
What should I treat fox uair as? A KO move or a multi hit move? Or which would be the easiest way to SDI it? I have a lot of trouble being consistent with it. Thanks.
***** quick hit move, as said in the video
I know this is basic, but there is absolutely no video covering tech, tech roll etc. you should do that, with the frames and stuff
Hey thanks for covering smash di but i dont understand meteor smash di i know you up b at the right moment but i see players who are able to cover this into many different scenarios to sum it up how do you di a spike / meteor smash?
Why does DI up and towards your opponent help if they hit you with a horizontally based moved (i.e sheik fair), shouldn't DI up have the same effect?
Rok XY if you don't di toward your opponent as well as up you won't have the di to pull you in towards the stage, you'll only go upwards causing you still to die the same as you would with no di
Does this work with pm?
Yes
Hit STUN
Was this put in by the developers? It's hard to tell.
yes, absolutely
The evidence, of course, being that they haven't removed it in the next two iterations of the game, something they did with many (most) of the mechanics that were either too strong or unintentional.
What about some yoshi stuff like edge cancel eggs or super armor utilization?
I dont get it, can I only do c stick or should i spam the right diretion with analog stick as well
so do you have to move both the analog stick and c stick to smash di or will just the c stick do it?
Is there ANY way I can practice DI/SDI alone? I do have the most recent 20XX hack pack on my laptop with a gc adapter but, lag :S. My other option would be a GC with 20XX TE.
There is something that i don't understood, if the C-stick overrides the normal stick wouldn't it be beneficial to input normal DI with the control stick and SDI with the C-stick? (Instead of flicking both to the same side.)
CRGabo The C-stick only helps with ASDI, which just helps a tiny bit, while SDI helps more.
Ok, thanks for taking the time to respond!
so im clear, My whole life ive survival DI'd like this
Smashed Horizontal (to the right): Hold up diagonal left
Smashed Vertical: Hold to the side
But recently someone told me that you should just hold toward the stage (smashed horizontal to right would then be: hold left, and smashed vertical would be hold down . . .)
which is right?
sketch nin The way you've always been doing it is right
alright, thanks so much for clearing that up for me
sketch nin Maybe that someone was a smash4 player at its first versions, where to survive, you had to input what they told ya.
In melee, you're doing it right.
Wonderful video, thanks!
What are the exact inputs for SDIing Fox's Up-air as Falco? Do I SDI upward or to the side? And do I only need 2 inputs of SDI or more?
+ERMAHGERD MERSHEDPERDERDERS same as puff, sideways. falco just doesnt go as far so its harder
Let's say I am Di'ing in on a Captain Falcon Up air string. I have lost y double jump and i'm just blindly holding in. To SDI do I have to reset my sticks to neutral? OR is the SDI being input each time the Captain hits me with the upair. This is the only part of DI and SDI that i cant grasp. Do the control sticks need to be reset to neutral to input DI/SDI or is just holding them in a certain direction a constant source of input.
+John Paine It will give it 1 SDI input. It doesn't need to be reset to neutral but just one input won;t change much so you'll want to try and get more inputs.
Also, why are you blindly holding in against upairs lol
I have seen this video several times and I still cant get how I should SDI. Should I hold both the Stick and the C-stick in the same direction I want to SDI or what? For example: When I SDI Fox's up air, do I have to hold both sticks up during first hit's hitlag?
+TheZabo56 For fox's up air I would just hold the C stick to one side and slap the control stick to that side also. It's somewhat redundant but there's no harm in adding the c stick
Here after the wizzrobe clip
Yeah I needed this info for Ultimate now that I own a smash game for the first time in my life so thanks, but goddamn can I not get over the fact that you smash players call recovery frames and hitstun "lag". Coming from a traditional fighting game backround and talking to my cousin (who put more time in smash than in any other fighting game out there) is the weirdest thing sometimes because he'll say lag and I'll think he's referring to the online match.
it happens when you get hit by any move?...... Except Fox lasers
Omg you did what I said Kira, I love you.
This is so perfect
sun did you just...
Thomas Stephenson walk up slowly and say I love you? PeoplesChamp
ICs neutral game
Sebas 6IXth Reality only look forma the grab