Steam wishlist: store.steampowered.com/app/1508530/Epiphany_City/ Get behind-the-scenes updates: www.epiphanycity.com/demo What changes would you make to Melee?
I'd fix snapback + ICG + ADT shields + stadium collision bug + 1f 'smash attack instead of buffered dodge' bug + lower port skipping 1f of throw hitstun bug + luigi game start cyclone charge bug, add widescreen + remappable controls + UCF + jumpsquat buffer, allow the player to optionally disable rolling/spotdodging with the control stick, make the shield release animation jump cancelable, and make physical powershields push you back less far instead of more far than regular shields. also arguably a toggle for auto l-canceling. alas, melee purists would never have it.
I guess I'll go into some character-specific changes here. As I said in my other comment I'm completely on-board with not aiming for perfect balance. -Less startup and endlag on PSI Magnet. Its basically unusable as-is. -Ledge grabbing in PK Thunder should a good deal more forgiving. Treat it like Sing before Ness hits himself and after he hits himself allow him a large period of time during which he can grab the ledge while facing away from it. -Make Fox Illusion and Falco Phantasm hitboxes smaller. Like the actual size of the hitbox. Its not a huge change, but I think it could have a great effect. Possibly also do this to Fire Fox and Fire Bird. -General SLIGHT changes to bad characters in places where they really suffer. This could be a slight buff to endlag on tilts, a slight range increase on grab, or whatever. Just make sure its a small change that doesnt reinvent the meta or change how the character is played.
im sure you've thought of this but is there any way you can contact the guy behind slippi? it would be the ideal place to workshop/distribute melee mods, unless im missing something
I can honestly say I did not expect such civil and interesting discourse in the comments lol, usually a video like this attracts very extreme responses. Really appreciate all the input you guys have, even the ones who completely disagree with me. Melee fans just all got it like that =P
Kira can you explain why you wouldn't normalize Marth grab to be in line with other characters? I feel like marth is so damn good and doesn't need an enhanced grab. Also spacies uptilt could be a bit less disjointed, they are such amazing characters and they don't need that dummy thicc anti air to cover them from any approach in my opinion.
@@the1shrubbery afaik marth's grab isn't actually larger compared to the rest of the cast, it's just further ahead compared to the visual indicator of his hand, but really the biggest reason it's not changed is the core principle of not changing the top level of play
whats your imput on giving roy and dk a slightly bigger dash attack range, aswell as, young link being able to graple his boomerang. would add nice hype for crouds. though not needed.
I mean, ur changes are kinda bizarre and ur shitting on peoples character. Obviously something as drastic as this is going to have a lot of disagreements. I personally think u do this and the game is done
Nerfing puff so hard but not being willing to shorten fox's up b is a little strange to me. But decent changes overall. I like the idea of decreasing execution barriers for cool options that already exist, but are simply unreasonably hard to perform. In that same vein I think up b cancel should be a little easier to perform.
He's salty, Keep Puff as is, its not like we're going to find a second big Puff player. Nerf fox into the dirt and buff donkeykong into S tier, cause it would be funny
I actually stopped watching after he mentioned this puff nerf. That's all I needed to see. Puff is not nearly as busted as fox and even Marth, yet you only choose to nerf puff and not fox up B or Marth grab? Seems like salt and not legitimate justification. If you're gonna nerf puffs jumps at least make her heavier, so she doesn't get cheesed by a fox up smash at 53%.
if the point is not to balance the game, not sure why we'd bother patching it. people already play and love it in its current dumb state lol personally I think it's a shame we only see like 7-8 characters in top level play, but that's how it was before patches. i am not sure why making top level players avoid having to to learn new matchups is a good reason to not make the game more fair lol
His problem wasn't simply that players have to learn new match ups it was that the existing match ups would be invalidated. Why would a Falco get good at shield pressure if they can just grab? How much can you buff a character until they are unrecognizable? If that doesn't matter to you maybe take a look at Beyond Melee which priorities balance and aggressive gameplay over maintaining play style. Note that it has no intention of replacing Melee and that top players aren't going to drop Melee for it
@@nahometesfay1112 imo SD Remix is more of a shout than beyond melee. SDR is just melee but it’s (theoretically) patched to be fully balanced and it does a better job of it than BM.
@@T1J TL;DR people don't want to learn new matchups because they like the existing matchups. Matchups test skills. People like Melee because it's matchups test skills that they value. Did you notice how the recommendation for ICs was a complete overhaul. That's because the presenter doesn't think the ICs match up tests the skills that they value. Honestly it's a vicious cycle because people value winning so they learn to value the skills that lead to winning which makes them value winning even more.
I think making Fox's upsmash more punishable would be a good nerf. It is already the best kill move in the entire game. It should not be so safe when spamming it into someone's shield. Adding more lag frames to the end of it would give it more risk without changing the reward.
I don’t think puff deserved the nerf. Her drift speed is already slower than some walking speeds and it is her fastest movement option. She literally cannot out run any top character. The drawn out matches are because there is no incentive for others to approach her. Removing the jump and decreasing her jump height means that top platform camping will be the new norm because she can not get up there without a huge commitment. I liked some of the other things but the puff one would make her mid tier.
5:10 Falco's upthrow is exactly the same in PAL... The only difference is actually Fox's weight, which retricts certain launch angles from the laser hits. (The same weight change also changes his dthrow) Against every other character, Falco's grab/throws behaves exactly the same between versions.
nerfing puff(top 5 character carried by 1 single person) for having a campy tools etc, while letting fox and falco have their OP camping tools doesn't make sense to me
How does muscle memory justify having the most broken and easiest neutral in the game? Fox and falco are busted regardless of playstyle. In that logic don't you think being able to input moves faster makes it easier to win?
@@paulallen575 because it’s not about balance, it’s about making a game as fun and entertaining to watch for most people as possible, which means nerfing puff and other boring floaties. Also, Fox and Falco definitely don’t have the “easiest neutral”, that’s a gross oversimplification of the game.
The puff changes only make sense if you in turn give her better approach options, that way theirs less incentive to camp. Ur change won’t make puffs play less lame it would however make ppl more inclined to simply plat camp her now that she can’t reach them.
Tbh I don't even think a big balance patch is necessary, but I really feel certain characters that are simply unfinished in Melee should be completed. I mean, Roy and G&W are the main ones that come to mind. G&W can't even L-cancel half of his aerials, and Roy literally has unfinished moves, or ones that outright don't match his animation like his dash attack.
Only Falco, Fox, Marth, Sheik and Peach are complete. Everyone else has at least one useless move that needs correction. Puff's Sing and Rollout are thrash for example. And about matching animations, matching Puff BAir would be a hella Nerf...
@Charles O'Connor Falcos Up B might been intended to have a hitbox on start-up. Also shine hitbox might need some visual/hitbox adjustments to fit it's size. Marths grab and hitbox manipulation would need another set of eyes to make sure thay work as intended. Peach down b seems unfinished. Sheiks side-b is kinda scuffed and here down-b is a total mess ;) That's just what I would say if I was the lead on game development. Thay are close to done but not there yet.
Something that actually does get changed gameplay wise by the Sheik DThrow change is the amount of time the enemy has to react to the throw and DI accordingly.
I'm sheik main and i can guarantee that even if it made me have to learn chaingrab timing it would make the sheik's game much more dynamic (in project + dthrow animation is much smaller and more dynamic)
Ah yeah good point. I guess we'd shorten the amount of time as much as possible while still keeping it reactable (so over 12 frames at the very least, probably more like 15)
@@SSBMTutorials a question I wanted to clear, like marth's dair and a meteorsmash now, would it be a good idea to decrease the dair's lag in the air, or would that make the attack unbalanced?
i definitely disagree with a lot of the per character changes, especially entirely reworking ics and contradicting the first two overall design goals instead of just removing wobbling from the game with unclepunch's gecko code which automatically breaks the grab after 3 nana hits
I agree and I think a better approach would be to lock Nana's throw in the direction of Popo or the direction of the player's joystick instead of random. Hand-offs are sick and still kind of a wobble but they're hard specifically because Nana throws in random directions. Remove wobbling and make this one change and ICs would be cool again.
@@GayDessert honestly i think hand offs being random when you're not at the ledge are fine and you can always hard commit to covering one of nana's options and go down as a legend when it works
@@GayDessert Personally I'm a fan of what PM did with icies. They made it so center stage nana always throws up and if you are at the edge of a platform or the edge of a stage then she throws towards that ledge. This means that at center stage you can always go into a juggle or waveland onto a platform to continue the combo without having to worry about nana throwing in any other directions and then the ledge handoff stays the same. The unclepunch code is also good because you can still use it to tack on some extra percent before you start your combo on the initial grab so the wobble isn't completely useless and it makes it sort of a "if you're a new icies player don't bother learning it" and "if you're a veteran player here's some extra percent".
To be fair, speeding up Sheik's dthrow animation *does* change things gameplay-wise. You have significantly less time to react with DI. There may be some cases with a fast dthrow where she can mix up your DI by not letting you react in time. Given she doesn't have a grab mixup like in PM, the situation probably wouldn't come up too often, but it's a gameplay change nonetheless.
This is a good point. I think that scenarios where the length of this this matters happen a LOT in doubles and the ICs matchup. Down throw is used much less in these situations because it can be punished so easily. This would actually be a huge buff for sheik in both these situations
I am quite certain DI input is taken from the first frame of the throw animation. You can't DI after it has started, therefor, a shorter throw animation doesn't change anything.
As far as the homogenization point goes, almost every time I've heard it said, it seems to only apply at a surface level. Saying a cast feels homogenous because everyone can do a throw into an aerial, sounds about on the same level as saying they're homogenous for all having a recovery up B. Unless they all do the same/similar combos or have the same/similar gameplan, then I think it's a bit inaccurate. This isn't just about Smash mods, it's a complaint I've heard about some recent fighting games that I don't think holds up.
I agree; people complained more about PM having such a huge set of unique matchups to learn. Ultimate has more matchups, but it's also a more homogeneous game.
low grab reward can make for very interesting gameplay, exactly what he was saying here about falco's uthrow vs fox. it emphasises shield pressure, because the character can't force good mix-ups. PM misses out on this aspect to some extent. the problem isn't that everyone does throw into aerial, it's that everyone always gets 20% and good positioning off grabs.
Make Young Link's fire spike an actual spike Make mewtwo's reflector actually change ownership Let teleport up b's grab ledge reverse (mewtwo, zelda, shiek) i.e. when teleporting straight up facing away from stage Give Roy's counter a few more active frames Zelda/Shiek no longer lose respawn invulnerability by switching I think these would be some nice fixes if we had patches
Do people think that Project M makes every character play the same? I never got that sense from playing Project M. Donkey Kong still has his insane grab game and is super fast, Bowser has sick command grab combos and fireball and hyper armor. Icies have wobbling and chaingrab removed and are still hella viable and have so much cool stuff. Pikachu QA cancels are SUUUPER fun and he feels way more unique than being “third shitty spacie” from melee, plus his 64 bair is incredibly satisfying. Then there’s Toon Link and all the crazy shit he can do with Brawl item throwing, and Ness with his crazy shine + DJC bullshit.
I think the only things I don't agree with are the pika Uair and Puff jump changes, pika would be fine with the Uair doing like 7%, additionally make DK and zelda not go into special fall after going for their neutral b and side b respectively
Yeah honestly pikachu up air juggles are really strong, it's just no one does them because there's no point. If it did 10% I think it would feel like getting robbed taking that much percent. 7 makes it worthwhile to go for the up air but not destroy your stock
Though honestly I quite like pikachu up air being so weak. Its such a good move but you have to always be thinking about what your getting off of it since it does such little damage, so you can't just mash it for easy juggle
@@shayboual1892 But then you have Marth up air juggling, which yields vastly superior results on an already better character. It’s tempering a character that doesn’t need tempering imo.
I think removing the negative disjoint on ganon's second hit of nair and normalizing it with falcon's nair would be a fair change. it would make the move's auto cancel window actually useful.
Why no changes to luigi daft or dash attack? i think dk tie hurt box could be removed (idk if it matters much just kinda weird). imo phantom hits add to viewer experience, and im still hoping custom stages see some kinda of integration
phantom hits add to viewer experience in such a niche way and so rarely that I'd say they're not worth having in the game, they are just a move hitting but being close to not hitting, I think it's dumb that they made that not deal any knockback
Honestly, just forgot about those Luigi moves haha. Thanks for pointing it out. I also agree about the DK tie hurtbox, for some reason low tiers have so many weird things like these that nerf them for no reason. That's also interesting about phantom hits being more hype from a spectator point of view. Never thought about that
@@WaveOfPig no you couldn't because that's not how hitboxes work, they are hitboxes connecting, but being close to not connecting. the hitboxes DO connect, you'd be wrong if you said otherwise
i think a change worth making would be to reduce fox laser damage from 3% to 2%. Lasers are already a very strong tool against slow characters since they unstale other moves and tack on damage with virtually no risk thanks to fox's speed. It's not as though fox has problems fighting close to slow characters. Slow characters have a hard enough time getting in on fox without taking 20-30% from lasers before they get their opening. I think this would be a non-intrusive way to weaken fox a little when camping. It wouldn't nerf him so much that it would make camping slow chars bad, but just reduce its effectiveness slightly so that he would have be incentivized to interact more if he wanted more damage
This is why the philosophy of "no nerfs" is brain dead. You can nerf characters in ways that don't change their playstyles but still bring things in line.
Honestly with Ganondorf, I'd say make it so that his up b recovery isn't as easy to hit from ledge when attempting to sweetspot it. Falcon has ways of getting around this problem with his hurtbox when trying to sweet spot his up b, but ganon is pretty much screwed basically no matter what he tries. He already has a terrible recovery and slow air speed, so I think something small like this. One larger change, though it might go beyond the scope you set out, would be the removal of rockrocking (I think that's how it's spelled). Again, both falcon and ganon have pretty exploitable recoveries, and it's kind of dumb that characters can just purposefully get hit by their recoveries to easily edge guard them.
I think giving both falcon/ganon side b edge grab would also help give both of them recovery options, and I don't think it would change gameplay too much
You increased the damage of some moves by so much lol. Also, I assume that when you do this you intend for the knockback of those moves to stay the same- if so you should probably be more explicit, as increasing the damage of a move like Pika's up air from 4 to 10 would very drastically change the moves knockback; some people might get confused as to what your intention with the change is.
For sure, I definitely wouldn't want to change the knockback at all. You might be right about the percent too, would definitely have to be careful about that
4:11 No. You can also just buff damage across the board, size of hitboxes, endlag on pokes, make him a couple points heavier, increase the size of his up b, the scoop on his up smash, lower the angle some moves send, increase his up b range, better magnet hands, let him mixup his recovery to land onstage with low endlag, etc. What a simplified view of how things can be done. Roy would still be uniquely Roy if his tipper hit like a feather but just did it better.
Personally, I think one of the reasons Melee is so successful is that the devs could not patch the game. It’s allowed the community to develop the meta game for over 20 years. With patches, meta changing patches are a regular occurrence and causes players to have to re-learn match ups.
For me, patches mean that if something is strong then players know that it will just get changed, so they don't learn to play against it. Patches make the players worse
I think having the community get into the habit of patches is a very bad idea, but I also think that potentially having 1 major update that is widely agreed upon (like ucf) could be good for chatter diversity. Not that I mean to buff or nerf characters per say, but to fix stupid stuff like gmw shield and not being able to L cancel.
@@AutumnReel4444 absolutely. It also just adds to general confusion and burnout. People get tired of having to relearn a game. Plus, think of all the tech and movement options we’d never have discovered if players were being made to spend their time repeatedly figuring out characters instead of exploring the obscure aspects of the game
The sheik downthrow speed-up also makes chain grabbing harder because you have less time to prepare to do the next grab. It's harder to be fast than slow.
I know it goes against the premise of the video. But i think it would just be more fun and fair if every meteor smash was a spike. Itd just be a lot cooler.
nobody ever mentions this one single change that makes the game just so much better, there is zero reason for top tier characters to have spammable spikes when you can meteor cancel long wind up moves like mario and samus dair
@@christomanci I would have every meteor be a spike except Falco side-b and Cap's stomp. Falco side-b spike would just be busted and I really like stomp loops with Cap.
originally when i saw the thumbnail i didn't want to click on the video. after seeing it a couple more times i finally gave it a shot, glad the notes are not related to the thumbnail
While this would almost certainly be too big and consequential a change, I would love to see what it would look like if Capt. Falcon had his Ultimate/Smash 4 aerial side-B, where hitting an opponent with Raptor Boost pops him into the air and doesn't put him in free fall, and it can grab ledge. Falcon's terrible recovery historically held him back so much, so a change like this could help on recovery mix-ups and make the edge-guarding player more wary of going off-stage. However, now that Wizzrobe has proven you can win a major with Falcon, I worry that a change like that would tip the meta too far. I don't THINK this change would make Falcon the best character, but who knows? That's problem with patches, they tend to butterfly, and affect the game in ways devs never thought they could. Melee's far from perfect, but too often the pursuit of perfection ruins the good.
I feel like the ice climbers changes went against the design goals, so what I would do is simply increasing the damage of Popo’s pummel, would drastically speed up games where the Icies do get a wobble
Phantom hits should stay because they are super hype. I don't play, I just watch but as far as I know they are not unfair and happen when you were on the exact limit of hitting or not hitting. If you switch it to fully working or not working your attack hits or it doesn't.This only gives the audience a normal amount of info. When a phantom happened it tells the audience they the attack missed, but it only just missed. It's sometimes hard to follow spacing as a punter spectator and phantoms let us see extra story in the games.
Phantom hits do occur when your hit box hits the opponents hurt box though. An incredibly small and near miss of a hit, but a deserved hit nonetheless. They should be removed
@@griffinashley2890 If you get hit with a phantom, that's only by exactly 1 pixel... it rewards you for spacing near perfectly, and you still get punished with some damage, but most importantly, you get a chance to steal the momentum like a missed L-cancel. That's hype af for both the player and the viewer. If you hit someone with a phantom and get rewarded with a full hit for connecting with a single pixel, that's absurd. Phantoms are inherently a defense mechanism and should be kept in. Now, you could remove it, but that just punishes everyone. I think the issue is the zero knockback, and if I were to change it, I would just half the knockback like the damage. That seems fair.
@@GayDessert that's not how it works at all. I'm telling you, it happens when you just barely get a hit. Go watch the asumsaus video on it. It's a deserved hit
Hi Griffin, I'm not trying to make an argument about if phantoms are our are not real hits. But that as a third outcome they have value to the game. In a normal, and in my opinion more boring game, you either hit or you don't. In melee you hit, miss, or phantom. It seems to me that if all the videos looking at the mechanics of phantoms all decided that they were not real hits people would not mind so much. Like many of melee's features this looks like it fits in the pile of unintended things. But if it were up to me I would have put this in the game on purpose. It makes it better to watch.
Puff should still have 6 jumps but slight less vertical distance on them or no nerf at all, Yoshi's grab more centered in Z axis, Pikachu's grab hitbox slightly bigger or moved more in front of him, Ness grab slightly bigger, and Phantom hit remain the same.
It would be really nice If the Roy zone could be tweaked cause as is, sometimes it feels downright wrong and unfair when you miss a move that shouldn’t have and you’re already a bad character that had to work hard for that hit opportunity. Also Roy’s up b has the same issue as samus up where if it connects, the opponent can usually still hit you before you become actionable. Maybe like 50% less landing frames after up b would be beneficial in that way or something similar
I don't understand what makes Sheik chain grab any different from Marth or Fox except for being slightly slower. It's still a chain grab. I don't see the point in changing it. Also you say that you want changes that don't outright change how players will play, but I feel like the Puff changes will do just that. Puff players will have to change how they edgeguard, play neutral, recover, etc. I don't see how that's not a pretty drastic change.
The whole thing feels a bit random and the design goals contradict each other imo. There's so many more no brainer changes and a lot of the ones mentioned here just seem grabbed out of thin air. Overall not bad though.
I think a change to Yoshi's grab and dash grab (like making Yoshi's normal grab faster but more end lag and fixing the hitbox on his dash grab) would help Yoshi out a fair amount without compromising interactions in game.
I feel as though SD Remix has it right, and should have been mentionned in the video. It’s the best balance patch. It doesn’t nerf, only buffs. People complain a whole lot more about having their main nerfed than say, having their opponent buffed. That puff jump buff would have me go crazy as a I always count my jumps…
These guys didn’t remove IC’s wobbling. And it’s a choice done to keep them in the meta… also goes along with their no nerf policy, which is a great one. I can’t imagine the quantity of buffs required to compensate IC’s losing wobble. Nana invicibility on AI (no longer attacks, only recovers). Popo only jab as a desync option? Up b tethers into ledge. Side b grabs ledge. Nana’s teleport range up on side b and up b. Also nana not being dumb is hard…
I don't think Sheik's chaingrab is a good mechanic at all. Chaingrabs in general are really unfun for the person being hit by them, but especially Sheik's where it's basically impossible for most characters to get out of it. Making it faster gives you less time to react with DI on both ends. A better change for Puff would be to make her pound only let her gain height once, similar to a Marth side-B.
A common counter to this idea is that it'd buff spacies pretty heavily considering it adds a strong layer of execution checks on top of their insane punish. Removing the need to L-cancel would just allow them to stomp on opponents that much easier instead of needing to invest the time to do it and be on point, rather than letting opponents capitalize on missed L-cancels with their own punishes or escapes.
@@EpicOdysseus I would 100% switch to Fox if they made it automatic. And I don’t think we should be making changes that drastic to the game based on the people who haven’t learned l-cancel yet, no offense to anyone. They likely don’t play online or in tournaments because they keep auto l-cancel on. I kinda wish that wasn’t an option in 20XX because it’s probably holding a lot of new players back from learning L-cancel. It’s really not as bad as it seems at first but once you play without it for so long I’m sure they feel like they don’t want to start retraining their muscle memory again.
removing L canceling would also remove the lockout for teching and wall teching, making both those mechanics way too easy to execute and less dynamic. Having one button that does many different things depending what state your character is in or will shortly be in is what makes this game so fluid.
Not changing things because it would cause everyone else to change how they play is dumb that's literally what patches are supposed to do. Might as well not patch at all
Her nair has a hurt box that extends past the hitbox, that'd be nice to fix. and something potentially too big, missiles should clank. there's nothing more frustrating then shooting a falco in the face during a dair, go through it then getting combo'd for 50. i also got hit by a falco fsmash that went through a full charge shot...
PM has the most unique character playstyles out of any smash game. Yeah, every character has approachable combos, but there are advanced ones too... like every other fighting game. You can't tell me Lucas, Donkey Kong, Mewtwo, or Toon Link feel the same. I feel like gameplans are much more diverse than melee tbh
Nerfing puff could destroy one of the most interesting narrative arc in any fighting game scene ever. I wouldn't even dream of touching this char ever.
Your comment about Samus grab being high risk made me think, probably the character with the most high reward grab are the ICs so maybe they should have more lag after missing a grab.
I’m a Marth main and… poor Puff like that changes her playstyle significantly at least way more than having any Fox PAL change The same with ices cause bruh I’m in love with the changes but that’s a gigantic change way more than any other proposed one tho I like it And make a video of how you break the 5th rule and balance every character, I’m studying modding and with your experience I might consider many ideas, tho what we have now I’ll try making something
I'm shocked you made it so samus doesn't lose charge shot when she gets hit out of up b, but didn't do the same for dk, when it happens far more often to him. IMO he shouldn't be put into special fall after using giant punch either.
Interesting about the balance changes for floatier, slower-paced characters. It would be fun to see how they’d work practically. Weird that I’m not seeing this anywhere in the comments I’d love to see Marth’s grab range adjusted a bit??
2 Things that should definitely be Changed regardless of what Falcon/ganon air Side b should grab ledge and should have Air Drift after hitting EVERY recovery should be, when sweetspotted, grab the ledge when facing away from it (see marth, he even turns around in the animation but cant grab it, thats just.. not how it should be) Its a recovery so it should do what its meant to, especially with stages such as Battlefield, PS, etc. where its sometimes the only way to survive
I also think some i-frames on rolls, spotdodges, and air dodges should be tweaked. Peach/Zelda and g&w are missing alot of i-frames on their airdodge and rolls respectively. bowser's spotdodge could also use more i-frames since the animation is slower. This is probably controversial, but I think meteor canceling should straight up be removed. Good video though.
I think it would be fair if fox and falco had a few things switched around. Falco has the bigger shine visually but his hurtbox is smaller than foxes. That should be switched so it's more inline with the visuals. I also think fox should be the one that doesn't have burn hitboxes on his firefox and that should be given to falco. I honestly don't think it would make too much difference in edgeguarding falco but I like the thematic tradeoff it would present.
I love melee, but as somebody who plays literally any other fighting/competitive game, I will never understand the melee player mentality of "its a good thing that most characters aren't viable because then I'd have to learn more matchups." Like...what? lol
as a pika main, i actually enjoy da thrill of pika's move set not doing much dmg on average compared to other mid or high tiers, he has da strongest upsmash in da game + thunder, as well as da deadly tail spike which feels so rewarding to connect when u move wit precision instead
I know one of the stated goals was for bad characters to stay bad for the most part, but I feel like Mario deserves the same kinds of changes as Pikachu. Mario also is forced to either gimp with his weak aerials or get an fsmash read pretty much. Nair is kind of an option for edgeguarding but even that requires pretty high percent on most stages. I wouldn’t want to just turn him into Doc, but at least slightly increase his bair knockback or something. Maybe dsmash or usmash could be buffed just a little bit
Something that crossed my mind was, what about PAL Fox and Falco Shine? Maybe even do a compromise by having NTSC data, but have it be Frame 3 like Pal. Slightly nerfing Fox and Falco, but still being very oppressive.
One thing for Samus I'm surprised you didn't add that would also help watchability is to speed up Samus's recovery using her down B. It can take a long time depending on the stage for her to recover, especially on Dream Land.
I don't know how I missed this back when it released. Good video! I do like a lot of your changes. Puff and ICs seem like some of the harder characters to change. I was expecting some sort of global change that makes running away or stalling less rewarding, but that's hard to do. Maybe a contextual onscreen timer, or a visual counter for ledge regrabs could make it easier to make rules that prevent people from abusing stalling.
I imagine that this comes from the perspective that the older version of melee would be unavailable to play or that the main draw behind the patch would be to make vanilla melee obsolete. But if the vanilla version is still available to play as it is now I seen very little reason for a patch to not drastically change the game and make something new out of Melee, since whatever way you change the game, players will not move from the competitive standard version.
I found the video very interesting even though I disagree with a lot of the reasoning. Firstly, I think the list of goals has a few problems in that *A*: they aren't ordered in terms of priority and *B*: only one rule (number 3) tells us what to do, while the others tell us what not to do. I absolutely don't think that "Improve spectator experience" is the only goal we should strive for. But even accepting the list, I don't think the proposed changes flow logically from those goals. A lot of them make things easier or more consistent but can not be justified using the goals listed at the start. Further more, the rule saying "maintain character playstyles" is applied very inconsistently. For Fox Up B you say that "although these changes are very slight they do unnecessarily alter the meta". But for DK you say "we can allow his currently underused ground moves to have more impact on the game so there are less wasted moves in the kit" *which is the definition* *of changing a playstyle*. You can't argue that DK needs changes but Fox doesn't because you've already claimed that balance is not a goal and you don't want to buff Ganon's Dtilt because it would change the way people play. I feel like the rules set up at the start of the video only provides a veneer of rationality for something that is ultimately just personal bias.
Furthermore, the way you improve a character without changing their playstyle is a great number of small buffs distributed equally among their options. So that the power ratio remains consistent while the overall power is increased.
I understand your points but have a few concerns: I think Samus’s Up b should be left as is (keeping charge is fine) as she can be considered a stereotypical zoner and as such should have a weaker gtfo move. Ganon I know people say he’s hard to balance without changing the game, but maybe allowing him to side b from ledge or act out of air WizKick a few frames faster might help. It won’t change the game drastically and aids his survivability which as a heavy should be good anyway
@@williamwest9204 That’s the issue. Because people have a different idea of how to balance the game, that’s where the controversy lies. For example I’d say small buffs all around but some might say only a few moves etc
@@nikc101 well a great example of bad changes and ignoring the community would be Project Ms dev team and Sakurais logic going into ultimate. The big issue with alot of players ideas of balance, especially melee players, is that they dont want balance, they dont want their character to face any extra challenge especially if they are a top tier main.
@@nikc101 and i say case by case based on design. Smash fans flawed logic is that however Sakurai first made them is how any character similar should be. Like heavies must be slow and lightweights need to be fast
An overall change that I think would benefit the game without changing play patterns is removing meteor cancelling entirely. The most used spikes can't be meteor cancelled anyways, and almost all moves that are meteor smashes have significant wind up or are otherwise hard to hit with.
I typically go by the no nerfs, only buffs mentality. Bigger shields for bigger characters, improve bad recoveries, make Shiek a fast faller, make Pikachu's tail spike consistent as well as buff the rest of the aerials, let Link and Young Link pull out arrows and bombs faster, make heavy characters jumpsquat a lot faster, Ness can jump out of PSI magnet which now has a hitbox, etc. No nerfs. Just buffs.
I genuinely think the only thing that Ganon needs to at least be somewhat viable is to have a more active Nair, like Falcon. He has no long lasting aerial he can approach with, on top of also being really slow. His best option currently is wavedash in and either jab or grab. His gameplan wouldn't change at all really, he would just have a tool to actually engage his opponent instead of getting whiff punished on every interaction by the opponent back dashing
To make melee ganon more viable you either have to increase his speed some, or lower the angle on some of his key moves so u cant just DI tank them to well over a 100%.
If Game and Watch is able to L cancel his aerials, then Luigi should have his dash attack fixed as well as Falcon having his up air fixed so they have their old final hitbox.
I completely agree with perfect balance or near-perfect balance being a misguided goal, but I do think that it could be pushed a little in that direction without actually making big or any changes to the order of the tiers. I also think that you are ignoring some easy and effective ways to change the top characters that would leave their play entirely intact. For example: -Moves that have set knockback or effectively set knockback only need to deal minimum damage so they deal shield stun. Setting the damage on Falco laser and Fox shine to 1% won't change what those moves can do or why they are used. It will just promote the use of other moves to actually deal damage. These moves are already incredibly effective aside from the damage they deal. -Moves that do not start combos or continue combos can be made more punishable. This can be done by increasing the ending lag on an attack that won't be followed up(Marth fsmash) or by adding vulnerability when missing a combo-worthy hit(remove/nerf the sourspot on Fox upsmash) And some more global changes: -Throw speed. You mentioned this a bit with Sheik, but I'm thinking of something a little different. Some characters enjoy great mixups due to throw speed. Their throws are so fast that it's very hard to react to the throw animation with your DI. A lot of the time you have to make a read on which way they might throw and the throwers can opt out of the obvious throw choice to get extra the benefits of using an off-throw against bad DI. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is something that should lean closer to normalization. This could be done either by slowing down unreactible throws or by speeding up the extra slow ones. -Ledge/Respawn Invulnerability. Characters in this game have so many unique stats. Its a small request that people might be asked to learn a little bit more about the characters. Like with weights or jumpsquats we could benefit a lot by making classes or even entirely character-unique values for for ledge and respawn invulnerability. When it comes to respawn, the effectiveness of the value changes with stage size, character speed, and character reach. The stage size can't really factor into a character change, but I think we could factor in an average there as well as speed/reach to come up with unique respawn invulnerabilities that add a slight push in a balanced direction. For ledge invulnerability the factors are different but the goal would be the same and in the case of the ledge I think this would be a situation with just a little nerfing and a little buffing for the extreme cases on either end. Character specific changes: Here I just wanna say that I agree with your sentiments that playstyles and knowledge should be kept intact. There are a number of good changes that could be made here especially to the bad characters but listing those isn't really the point of my comment.
No character with the Marths speed should have a hit box and grab like that. Getting anywhere near Marth is lethal and any hit can turn into juggling/grabbing. Even at the highest levels other mains spend most the match running from him, firing projectiles, and keeping a safe distance till they see a hole to hit him and hopefully start a string of combos.
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What changes would you make to Melee?
I'd fix snapback + ICG + ADT shields + stadium collision bug + 1f 'smash attack instead of buffered dodge' bug + lower port skipping 1f of throw hitstun bug + luigi game start cyclone charge bug, add widescreen + remappable controls + UCF + jumpsquat buffer, allow the player to optionally disable rolling/spotdodging with the control stick, make the shield release animation jump cancelable, and make physical powershields push you back less far instead of more far than regular shields. also arguably a toggle for auto l-canceling. alas, melee purists would never have it.
I guess I'll go into some character-specific changes here. As I said in my other comment I'm completely on-board with not aiming for perfect balance.
-Less startup and endlag on PSI Magnet. Its basically unusable as-is.
-Ledge grabbing in PK Thunder should a good deal more forgiving. Treat it like Sing before Ness hits himself and after he hits himself allow him a large period of time during which he can grab the ledge while facing away from it.
-Make Fox Illusion and Falco Phantasm hitboxes smaller. Like the actual size of the hitbox. Its not a huge change, but I think it could have a great effect. Possibly also do this to Fire Fox and Fire Bird.
-General SLIGHT changes to bad characters in places where they really suffer. This could be a slight buff to endlag on tilts, a slight range increase on grab, or whatever. Just make sure its a small change that doesnt reinvent the meta or change how the character is played.
im sure you've thought of this but is there any way you can contact the guy behind slippi? it would be the ideal place to workshop/distribute melee mods, unless im missing something
Add Steve cause he would fit in perfectly, and fix g&w shield and the fact he can't l cancel some of his aerials
I get very strong "I hate floaties" vibes from this
I understand but I swear I hate fighting floaties less than 99% of players
9:43 "It reduces interaction"
*uses clip of fox running away and lasering*
Sorry for the lost sponsor, thanks for releasing content regardless
I can honestly say I did not expect such civil and interesting discourse in the comments lol, usually a video like this attracts very extreme responses. Really appreciate all the input you guys have, even the ones who completely disagree with me. Melee fans just all got it like that =P
Kira can you explain why you wouldn't normalize Marth grab to be in line with other characters? I feel like marth is so damn good and doesn't need an enhanced grab. Also spacies uptilt could be a bit less disjointed, they are such amazing characters and they don't need that dummy thicc anti air to cover them from any approach in my opinion.
@@the1shrubbery afaik marth's grab isn't actually larger compared to the rest of the cast, it's just further ahead compared to the visual indicator of his hand, but really the biggest reason it's not changed is the core principle of not changing the top level of play
whats your imput on giving roy and dk a slightly bigger dash attack range,
aswell as, young link being able to graple his boomerang. would add nice hype for crouds. though not needed.
I mean, ur changes are kinda bizarre and ur shitting on peoples character. Obviously something as drastic as this is going to have a lot of disagreements. I personally think u do this and the game is done
Nerfing puff so hard but not being willing to shorten fox's up b is a little strange to me. But decent changes overall. I like the idea of decreasing execution barriers for cool options that already exist, but are simply unreasonably hard to perform. In that same vein I think up b cancel should be a little easier to perform.
I was about the comment this. His up b cancel is so difficult as a Doc main I just don't bother and use everything else but.
Fox up b range isnt that far, it's similar in all game and you can still edge guard him
He's salty, Keep Puff as is, its not like we're going to find a second big Puff player. Nerf fox into the dirt and buff donkeykong into S tier, cause it would be funny
I actually stopped watching after he mentioned this puff nerf. That's all I needed to see. Puff is not nearly as busted as fox and even Marth, yet you only choose to nerf puff and not fox up B or Marth grab? Seems like salt and not legitimate justification. If you're gonna nerf puffs jumps at least make her heavier, so she doesn't get cheesed by a fox up smash at 53%.
If Fox had a shorter up b he would be better
if the point is not to balance the game, not sure why we'd bother patching it. people already play and love it in its current dumb state lol personally I think it's a shame we only see like 7-8 characters in top level play, but that's how it was before patches. i am not sure why making top level players avoid having to to learn new matchups is a good reason to not make the game more fair lol
His problem wasn't simply that players have to learn new match ups it was that the existing match ups would be invalidated. Why would a Falco get good at shield pressure if they can just grab? How much can you buff a character until they are unrecognizable? If that doesn't matter to you maybe take a look at Beyond Melee which priorities balance and aggressive gameplay over maintaining play style. Note that it has no intention of replacing Melee and that top players aren't going to drop Melee for it
@@nahometesfay1112 imo SD Remix is more of a shout than beyond melee. SDR is just melee but it’s (theoretically) patched to be fully balanced and it does a better job of it than BM.
@@nahometesfay1112 in all honesty it sounds like you are saying "learning new matchups" just in different words
@@T1J TL;DR people don't want to learn new matchups because they like the existing matchups.
Matchups test skills. People like Melee because it's matchups test skills that they value. Did you notice how the recommendation for ICs was a complete overhaul. That's because the presenter doesn't think the ICs match up tests the skills that they value.
Honestly it's a vicious cycle because people value winning so they learn to value the skills that lead to winning which makes them value winning even more.
@@WaveOfPig I've never heard of SD remix before, but from a quick search that sounds right
I think making Fox's upsmash more punishable would be a good nerf. It is already the best kill move in the entire game. It should not be so safe when spamming it into someone's shield. Adding more lag frames to the end of it would give it more risk without changing the reward.
I don’t think puff deserved the nerf. Her drift speed is already slower than some walking speeds and it is her fastest movement option. She literally cannot out run any top character. The drawn out matches are because there is no incentive for others to approach her. Removing the jump and decreasing her jump height means that top platform camping will be the new norm because she can not get up there without a huge commitment. I liked some of the other things but the puff one would make her mid tier.
Puff should be low tier
@@peregrinecovington4138 Why?
@@peregrinecovington4138 skill issue, simply deal with puff
@@chrispo7610 I love playing against puff
@@peregrinecovington4138 ideally there are no low teir characters
5:10 Falco's upthrow is exactly the same in PAL... The only difference is actually Fox's weight, which retricts certain launch angles from the laser hits. (The same weight change also changes his dthrow)
Against every other character, Falco's grab/throws behaves exactly the same between versions.
nerfing puff(top 5 character carried by 1 single person) for having a campy tools etc, while letting fox and falco have their OP camping tools doesn't make sense to me
People that still think Puff is broken are naive
Because short hop double laser is harder and can kill u at any moment?
Because she’s boring and bad for the game ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
How does muscle memory justify having the most broken and easiest neutral in the game? Fox and falco are busted regardless of playstyle. In that logic don't you think being able to input moves faster makes it easier to win?
@@paulallen575 because it’s not about balance, it’s about making a game as fun and entertaining to watch for most people as possible, which means nerfing puff and other boring floaties.
Also, Fox and Falco definitely don’t have the “easiest neutral”, that’s a gross oversimplification of the game.
The puff changes only make sense if you in turn give her better approach options, that way theirs less incentive to camp. Ur change won’t make puffs play less lame it would however make ppl more inclined to simply plat camp her now that she can’t reach them.
Tbh I don't even think a big balance patch is necessary, but I really feel certain characters that are simply unfinished in Melee should be completed. I mean, Roy and G&W are the main ones that come to mind. G&W can't even L-cancel half of his aerials, and Roy literally has unfinished moves, or ones that outright don't match his animation like his dash attack.
Only Falco, Fox, Marth, Sheik and Peach are complete. Everyone else has at least one useless move that needs correction. Puff's Sing and Rollout are thrash for example.
And about matching animations, matching Puff BAir would be a hella Nerf...
@@charlesoconnor8753 You might be able to argue that doc is also completed
@Charles O'Connor
Falcos Up B might been intended to have a hitbox on start-up. Also shine hitbox might need some visual/hitbox adjustments to fit it's size.
Marths grab and hitbox manipulation would need another set of eyes to make sure thay work as intended.
Peach down b seems unfinished.
Sheiks side-b is kinda scuffed and here down-b is a total mess ;)
That's just what I would say if I was the lead on game development.
Thay are close to done but not there yet.
@@charlesoconnor8753 Idk... Sheik is complete? Her down-b is pretty useless ;)
@@charlesoconnor8753 Peach's uptilt, ftilt, fsmash, side B, neutral B are all never used on purpose.
Zelda, Link, Ganon and Bowser's jump squat should be 5 frames
I would also lower Mewtwo's to 4 frames. He's already so large and light that he should be able to enter the air faster.
Something that actually does get changed gameplay wise by the Sheik DThrow change is the amount of time the enemy has to react to the throw and DI accordingly.
I'm sheik main and i can guarantee that even if it made me have to learn chaingrab timing it would make the sheik's game much more dynamic (in project + dthrow animation is much smaller and more dynamic)
Ah yeah good point. I guess we'd shorten the amount of time as much as possible while still keeping it reactable (so over 12 frames at the very least, probably more like 15)
@@SSBMTutorials a question I wanted to clear, like marth's dair and a meteorsmash now, would it be a good idea to decrease the dair's lag in the air, or would that make the attack unbalanced?
Hmm
@@SSBMTutorials CHECK OUT! WHAT!? FALCO CAN DO WHAT!!?? Video: th-cam.com/video/KPYmrZTRi78/w-d-xo.html
i definitely disagree with a lot of the per character changes, especially entirely reworking ics and contradicting the first two overall design goals instead of just removing wobbling from the game with unclepunch's gecko code which automatically breaks the grab after 3 nana hits
I agree and I think a better approach would be to lock Nana's throw in the direction of Popo or the direction of the player's joystick instead of random. Hand-offs are sick and still kind of a wobble but they're hard specifically because Nana throws in random directions. Remove wobbling and make this one change and ICs would be cool again.
@@GayDessert honestly i think hand offs being random when you're not at the ledge are fine and you can always hard commit to covering one of nana's options and go down as a legend when it works
@@GayDessert Personally I'm a fan of what PM did with icies. They made it so center stage nana always throws up and if you are at the edge of a platform or the edge of a stage then she throws towards that ledge. This means that at center stage you can always go into a juggle or waveland onto a platform to continue the combo without having to worry about nana throwing in any other directions and then the ledge handoff stays the same. The unclepunch code is also good because you can still use it to tack on some extra percent before you start your combo on the initial grab so the wobble isn't completely useless and it makes it sort of a "if you're a new icies player don't bother learning it" and "if you're a veteran player here's some extra percent".
"Floaty vs floaty matchups are already the biggest threat to our overall vision"
20:58
"If I were in charge of patching Super Smash Bros. Melee,"
>shows Rivals of Aether patch notes
nice job team
To be fair, speeding up Sheik's dthrow animation *does* change things gameplay-wise. You have significantly less time to react with DI. There may be some cases with a fast dthrow where she can mix up your DI by not letting you react in time.
Given she doesn't have a grab mixup like in PM, the situation probably wouldn't come up too often, but it's a gameplay change nonetheless.
This is a good point. I think that scenarios where the length of this this matters happen a LOT in doubles and the ICs matchup. Down throw is used much less in these situations because it can be punished so easily. This would actually be a huge buff for sheik in both these situations
It affects doubles too but no one really plays doubles anymore.
I am quite certain DI input is taken from the first frame of the throw animation. You can't DI after it has started, therefor, a shorter throw animation doesn't change anything.
@@charlesoconnor8753 I'm almost positive that's not true. Longer throw animations have always been beneficial to the person DIing.
@@charlesoconnor8753 this is completely incorrect
this is a nice change of pace from going through the sfv final patch notes
As far as the homogenization point goes, almost every time I've heard it said, it seems to only apply at a surface level. Saying a cast feels homogenous because everyone can do a throw into an aerial, sounds about on the same level as saying they're homogenous for all having a recovery up B. Unless they all do the same/similar combos or have the same/similar gameplan, then I think it's a bit inaccurate. This isn't just about Smash mods, it's a complaint I've heard about some recent fighting games that I don't think holds up.
Also, the goals are noble, but I feel a bit misguided. Like if you’re trying to not change any play styles, or alter how a character feels then why?
I agree; people complained more about PM having such a huge set of unique matchups to learn. Ultimate has more matchups, but it's also a more homogeneous game.
Exactly. I feel that the complaint against homogenization in the video is kind of disingenuous or very badly thought out
low grab reward can make for very interesting gameplay, exactly what he was saying here about falco's uthrow vs fox. it emphasises shield pressure, because the character can't force good mix-ups.
PM misses out on this aspect to some extent.
the problem isn't that everyone does throw into aerial, it's that everyone always gets 20% and good positioning off grabs.
Make Young Link's fire spike an actual spike
Make mewtwo's reflector actually change ownership
Let teleport up b's grab ledge reverse (mewtwo, zelda, shiek) i.e. when teleporting straight up facing away from stage
Give Roy's counter a few more active frames
Zelda/Shiek no longer lose respawn invulnerability by switching
I think these would be some nice fixes if we had patches
Do people think that Project M makes every character play the same? I never got that sense from playing Project M. Donkey Kong still has his insane grab game and is super fast, Bowser has sick command grab combos and fireball and hyper armor. Icies have wobbling and chaingrab removed and are still hella viable and have so much cool stuff. Pikachu QA cancels are SUUUPER fun and he feels way more unique than being “third shitty spacie” from melee, plus his 64 bair is incredibly satisfying. Then there’s Toon Link and all the crazy shit he can do with Brawl item throwing, and Ness with his crazy shine + DJC bullshit.
I think the only things I don't agree with are the pika Uair and Puff jump changes, pika would be fine with the Uair doing like 7%, additionally make DK and zelda not go into special fall after going for their neutral b and side b respectively
7 or 8 percent sounds more reasonable to me as well
Yeah honestly pikachu up air juggles are really strong, it's just no one does them because there's no point. If it did 10% I think it would feel like getting robbed taking that much percent. 7 makes it worthwhile to go for the up air but not destroy your stock
Though honestly I quite like pikachu up air being so weak. Its such a good move but you have to always be thinking about what your getting off of it since it does such little damage, so you can't just mash it for easy juggle
@@shayboual1892 But then you have Marth up air juggling, which yields vastly superior results on an already better character. It’s tempering a character that doesn’t need tempering imo.
@@WaveOfPig I'm unsure as to your point. Do u want pikachus up air to deal 10, 7 or 4?
I think removing the negative disjoint on ganon's second hit of nair and normalizing it with falcon's nair would be a fair change. it would make the move's auto cancel window actually useful.
its really cool you use videos from so different regions :)
Why no changes to luigi daft or dash attack?
i think dk tie hurt box could be removed (idk if it matters much just kinda weird).
imo phantom hits add to viewer experience, and im still hoping custom stages see some kinda of integration
phantom hits add to viewer experience in such a niche way and so rarely that I'd say they're not worth having in the game, they are just a move hitting but being close to not hitting, I think it's dumb that they made that not deal any knockback
Honestly, just forgot about those Luigi moves haha. Thanks for pointing it out.
I also agree about the DK tie hurtbox, for some reason low tiers have so many weird things like these that nerf them for no reason.
That's also interesting about phantom hits being more hype from a spectator point of view. Never thought about that
@@SSBMTutorials what a great open minded response.
THIS is why i love ssbm tutorials. you're the goat Kira. looking forward to Epiphany city.
@@finmin2k You could also argue that phantom hits are a move missing, but being so close to not missing.
@@WaveOfPig no you couldn't because that's not how hitboxes work, they are hitboxes connecting, but being close to not connecting. the hitboxes DO connect, you'd be wrong if you said otherwise
i think a change worth making would be to reduce fox laser damage from 3% to 2%. Lasers are already a very strong tool against slow characters since they unstale other moves and tack on damage with virtually no risk thanks to fox's speed. It's not as though fox has problems fighting close to slow characters. Slow characters have a hard enough time getting in on fox without taking 20-30% from lasers before they get their opening.
I think this would be a non-intrusive way to weaken fox a little when camping. It wouldn't nerf him so much that it would make camping slow chars bad, but just reduce its effectiveness slightly so that he would have be incentivized to interact more if he wanted more damage
This is why the philosophy of "no nerfs" is brain dead. You can nerf characters in ways that don't change their playstyles but still bring things in line.
"I don't want to remove any core gameplay elements of any of the characters. Except of course Jigglypuff."
I would totally change my main to Dr. Mario if Up-B cancel was a combo starter.
It is if they DI right
Honestly with Ganondorf, I'd say make it so that his up b recovery isn't as easy to hit from ledge when attempting to sweetspot it. Falcon has ways of getting around this problem with his hurtbox when trying to sweet spot his up b, but ganon is pretty much screwed basically no matter what he tries. He already has a terrible recovery and slow air speed, so I think something small like this. One larger change, though it might go beyond the scope you set out, would be the removal of rockrocking (I think that's how it's spelled). Again, both falcon and ganon have pretty exploitable recoveries, and it's kind of dumb that characters can just purposefully get hit by their recoveries to easily edge guard them.
I think giving both falcon/ganon side b edge grab would also help give both of them recovery options, and I don't think it would change gameplay too much
You increased the damage of some moves by so much lol. Also, I assume that when you do this you intend for the knockback of those moves to stay the same- if so you should probably be more explicit, as increasing the damage of a move like Pika's up air from 4 to 10 would very drastically change the moves knockback; some people might get confused as to what your intention with the change is.
yeah i agree changing damage that much... didn't he say no major changes?
For sure, I definitely wouldn't want to change the knockback at all. You might be right about the percent too, would definitely have to be careful about that
4:11
No. You can also just buff damage across the board, size of hitboxes, endlag on pokes, make him a couple points heavier, increase the size of his up b, the scoop on his up smash, lower the angle some moves send, increase his up b range, better magnet hands, let him mixup his recovery to land onstage with low endlag, etc. What a simplified view of how things can be done.
Roy would still be uniquely Roy if his tipper hit like a feather but just did it better.
Personally, I think one of the reasons Melee is so successful is that the devs could not patch the game. It’s allowed the community to develop the meta game for over 20 years. With patches, meta changing patches are a regular occurrence and causes players to have to re-learn match ups.
For me, patches mean that if something is strong then players know that it will just get changed, so they don't learn to play against it. Patches make the players worse
I think having the community get into the habit of patches is a very bad idea, but I also think that potentially having 1 major update that is widely agreed upon (like ucf) could be good for chatter diversity.
Not that I mean to buff or nerf characters per say, but to fix stupid stuff like gmw shield and not being able to L cancel.
@@AutumnReel4444 absolutely. It also just adds to general confusion and burnout. People get tired of having to relearn a game. Plus, think of all the tech and movement options we’d never have discovered if players were being made to spend their time repeatedly figuring out characters instead of exploring the obscure aspects of the game
this is a very common take lol
@@Brain-washed2 Does that make it bad? Let me guess, you dislike water because it's too popular? lol
The sheik downthrow speed-up also makes chain grabbing harder because you have less time to prepare to do the next grab. It's harder to be fast than slow.
I don’t think it’d be that much harder tbh, but it would speed up the chaingrab process which is nice.
Not changing Marth’s grab range is a crime. Amazing vid, btw
I know it goes against the premise of the video. But i think it would just be more fun and fair if every meteor smash was a spike. Itd just be a lot cooler.
nobody ever mentions this one single change that makes the game just so much better, there is zero reason for top tier characters to have spammable spikes when you can meteor cancel long wind up moves like mario and samus dair
Except falco side b, leave that shit meteor cancellable
@@shayboual1892 yeah that makes sense. But it'd be rad
@@christomanci I would have every meteor be a spike except Falco side-b and Cap's stomp. Falco side-b spike would just be busted and I really like stomp loops with Cap.
What about straight up removing meteor canceling ?
originally when i saw the thumbnail i didn't want to click on the video. after seeing it a couple more times i finally gave it a shot, glad the notes are not related to the thumbnail
Captain Falcon Side+B actually grabs ledge. Meets all the requirements you stated.
While this would almost certainly be too big and consequential a change, I would love to see what it would look like if Capt. Falcon had his Ultimate/Smash 4 aerial side-B, where hitting an opponent with Raptor Boost pops him into the air and doesn't put him in free fall, and it can grab ledge.
Falcon's terrible recovery historically held him back so much, so a change like this could help on recovery mix-ups and make the edge-guarding player more wary of going off-stage.
However, now that Wizzrobe has proven you can win a major with Falcon, I worry that a change like that would tip the meta too far. I don't THINK this change would make Falcon the best character, but who knows? That's problem with patches, they tend to butterfly, and affect the game in ways devs never thought they could.
Melee's far from perfect, but too often the pursuit of perfection ruins the good.
This has been implemented in SD Remix.
This is why Ganondorf should get that change. He already has a harder time recovering than Falcon.
"You already know, it's me Kira"
>still has little to no idea who Kira is
that is fair
No man, we get goosebumps whenever this line drops.
I feel like the ice climbers changes went against the design goals, so what I would do is simply increasing the damage of Popo’s pummel, would drastically speed up games where the Icies do get a wobble
Phantom hits should stay because they are super hype. I don't play, I just watch but as far as I know they are not unfair and happen when you were on the exact limit of hitting or not hitting. If you switch it to fully working or not working your attack hits or it doesn't.This only gives the audience a normal amount of info. When a phantom happened it tells the audience they the attack missed, but it only just missed. It's sometimes hard to follow spacing as a punter spectator and phantoms let us see extra story in the games.
Phantom hits do occur when your hit box hits the opponents hurt box though. An incredibly small and near miss of a hit, but a deserved hit nonetheless. They should be removed
@@griffinashley2890 If you get hit with a phantom, that's only by exactly 1 pixel... it rewards you for spacing near perfectly, and you still get punished with some damage, but most importantly, you get a chance to steal the momentum like a missed L-cancel. That's hype af for both the player and the viewer. If you hit someone with a phantom and get rewarded with a full hit for connecting with a single pixel, that's absurd. Phantoms are inherently a defense mechanism and should be kept in. Now, you could remove it, but that just punishes everyone. I think the issue is the zero knockback, and if I were to change it, I would just half the knockback like the damage. That seems fair.
@@GayDessert its not a single pixel, a pixel changes size with your screen. Just say its a really small in game unit
@@GayDessert that's not how it works at all. I'm telling you, it happens when you just barely get a hit. Go watch the asumsaus video on it. It's a deserved hit
Hi Griffin, I'm not trying to make an argument about if phantoms are our are not real hits. But that as a third outcome they have value to the game. In a normal, and in my opinion more boring game, you either hit or you don't. In melee you hit, miss, or phantom. It seems to me that if all the videos looking at the mechanics of phantoms all decided that they were not real hits people would not mind so much. Like many of melee's features this looks like it fits in the pile of unintended things. But if it were up to me I would have put this in the game on purpose. It makes it better to watch.
Puff should still have 6 jumps but slight less vertical distance on them or no nerf at all, Yoshi's grab more centered in Z axis, Pikachu's grab hitbox slightly bigger or moved more in front of him, Ness grab slightly bigger, and Phantom hit remain the same.
It would be really nice If the Roy zone could be tweaked cause as is, sometimes it feels downright wrong and unfair when you miss a move that shouldn’t have and you’re already a bad character that had to work hard for that hit opportunity. Also Roy’s up b has the same issue as samus up where if it connects, the opponent can usually still hit you before you become actionable. Maybe like 50% less landing frames after up b would be beneficial in that way or something similar
I don't understand what makes Sheik chain grab any different from Marth or Fox except for being slightly slower. It's still a chain grab. I don't see the point in changing it.
Also you say that you want changes that don't outright change how players will play, but I feel like the Puff changes will do just that. Puff players will have to change how they edgeguard, play neutral, recover, etc. I don't see how that's not a pretty drastic change.
Marths is harder. Sheiks is easy
@@socaranectien1933 marths and sheiks literally are both easy you just have to learn to do them
The whole thing feels a bit random and the design goals contradict each other imo. There's so many more no brainer changes and a lot of the ones mentioned here just seem grabbed out of thin air. Overall not bad though.
I really wish that as a community we did a patch like this one and also experiment with rulesets and adding stages
i always thought it be good if every time you regrab ledge without standing backj on stage, you lose a frame of invicibility
I think a change to Yoshi's grab and dash grab (like making Yoshi's normal grab faster but more end lag and fixing the hitbox on his dash grab) would help Yoshi out a fair amount without compromising interactions in game.
I feel as though SD Remix has it right, and should have been mentionned in the video. It’s the best balance patch. It doesn’t nerf, only buffs. People complain a whole lot more about having their main nerfed than say, having their opponent buffed. That puff jump buff would have me go crazy as a I always count my jumps…
These guys didn’t remove IC’s wobbling. And it’s a choice done to keep them in the meta… also goes along with their no nerf policy, which is a great one. I can’t imagine the quantity of buffs required to compensate IC’s losing wobble. Nana invicibility on AI (no longer attacks, only recovers). Popo only jab as a desync option? Up b tethers into ledge. Side b grabs ledge. Nana’s teleport range up on side b and up b.
Also nana not being dumb is hard…
@@charlesoconnor8753 you can't imagine? Really? A little more range and a little less endlag on a lot of moves does wonders
pikachu with 10% up air is literally so broken lmfao
Marth’s grab needs to be buffed
I don't think Sheik's chaingrab is a good mechanic at all. Chaingrabs in general are really unfun for the person being hit by them, but especially Sheik's where it's basically impossible for most characters to get out of it. Making it faster gives you less time to react with DI on both ends.
A better change for Puff would be to make her pound only let her gain height once, similar to a Marth side-B.
One global change I'd consider is making L-cancelling automatic. It's just a barrier to entry and there's never really any reason not to do it.
A common counter to this idea is that it'd buff spacies pretty heavily considering it adds a strong layer of execution checks on top of their insane punish. Removing the need to L-cancel would just allow them to stomp on opponents that much easier instead of needing to invest the time to do it and be on point, rather than letting opponents capitalize on missed L-cancels with their own punishes or escapes.
14:14 "basically just an arbitrary execution barrier"
yeah he knows this type of thing is bad, I was surprised it wasn't mentioned
@@EpicOdysseus I would 100% switch to Fox if they made it automatic. And I don’t think we should be making changes that drastic to the game based on the people who haven’t learned l-cancel yet, no offense to anyone. They likely don’t play online or in tournaments because they keep auto l-cancel on. I kinda wish that wasn’t an option in 20XX because it’s probably holding a lot of new players back from learning L-cancel. It’s really not as bad as it seems at first but once you play without it for so long I’m sure they feel like they don’t want to start retraining their muscle memory again.
removing L canceling would also remove the lockout for teching and wall teching, making both those mechanics way too easy to execute and less dynamic. Having one button that does many different things depending what state your character is in or will shortly be in is what makes this game so fluid.
Not changing things because it would cause everyone else to change how they play is dumb that's literally what patches are supposed to do. Might as well not patch at all
I would like to see some more bug fixes with things like Z-axis for Yoshi's grab.
samus' zair actually has a bit of rng with where it grapples on walls/ ledges, so i'd make it consistently the same always
oh yea tru
Her nair has a hurt box that extends past the hitbox, that'd be nice to fix. and something potentially too big, missiles should clank. there's nothing more frustrating then shooting a falco in the face during a dair, go through it then getting combo'd for 50. i also got hit by a falco fsmash that went through a full charge shot...
PM has the most unique character playstyles out of any smash game. Yeah, every character has approachable combos, but there are advanced ones too... like every other fighting game. You can't tell me Lucas, Donkey Kong, Mewtwo, or Toon Link feel the same. I feel like gameplans are much more diverse than melee tbh
Nerfing puff could destroy one of the most interesting narrative arc in any fighting game scene ever. I wouldn't even dream of touching this char ever.
Highkey need a mod based off this video
That used to be MagicScrumpy
Your comment about Samus grab being high risk made me think, probably the character with the most high reward grab are the ICs so maybe they should have more lag after missing a grab.
not a bad point
I’m a Marth main and… poor Puff like that changes her playstyle significantly at least way more than having any Fox PAL change
The same with ices cause bruh I’m in love with the changes but that’s a gigantic change way more than any other proposed one tho I like it
And make a video of how you break the 5th rule and balance every character, I’m studying modding and with your experience I might consider many ideas, tho what we have now I’ll try making something
awesome
was really wishing you’d sat at the end… “you can download the mod NOW”
oh thank god you kept sheik chaingrabs, I was worried that she wouldn't still autowin against the lower half of the cast for a moment there
Hahaha. As an ex Pikachu main which lost all the time by chaingrab, this comment made me laugh a lot!!
I'm shocked you made it so samus doesn't lose charge shot when she gets hit out of up b, but didn't do the same for dk, when it happens far more often to him. IMO he shouldn't be put into special fall after using giant punch either.
Amazing changes please if you can make a part 2 with more characters and further fleshing out the ICs stuff
Interesting about the balance changes for floatier, slower-paced characters. It would be fun to see how they’d work practically.
Weird that I’m not seeing this anywhere in the comments I’d love to see Marth’s grab range adjusted a bit??
2 Things that should definitely be Changed regardless of what
Falcon/ganon air Side b should grab ledge and should have Air Drift after hitting
EVERY recovery should be, when sweetspotted, grab the ledge when facing away from it (see marth, he even turns around in the animation but cant grab it, thats just.. not how it should be)
Its a recovery so it should do what its meant to, especially with stages such as Battlefield, PS, etc. where its sometimes the only way to survive
I also think some i-frames on rolls, spotdodges, and air dodges should be tweaked. Peach/Zelda and g&w are missing alot of i-frames on their airdodge and rolls respectively. bowser's spotdodge could also use more i-frames since the animation is slower.
This is probably controversial, but I think meteor canceling should straight up be removed. Good video though.
I think it would be fair if fox and falco had a few things switched around. Falco has the bigger shine visually but his hurtbox is smaller than foxes. That should be switched so it's more inline with the visuals. I also think fox should be the one that doesn't have burn hitboxes on his firefox and that should be given to falco. I honestly don't think it would make too much difference in edgeguarding falco but I like the thematic tradeoff it would present.
I love melee, but as somebody who plays literally any other fighting/competitive game, I will never understand the melee player mentality of "its a good thing that most characters aren't viable because then I'd have to learn more matchups." Like...what? lol
as a pika main, i actually enjoy da thrill of pika's move set not doing much dmg on average compared to other mid or high tiers, he has da strongest upsmash in da game + thunder, as well as da deadly tail spike which feels so rewarding to connect when u move wit precision instead
I’d like to see Mario get a true spike with his fair and slightly increased grab range as well
DK: Dtilt now pops opponent up to lead to combos so he doesn't overly rely on grab. UpB charge retainment like in PAL.
I know one of the stated goals was for bad characters to stay bad for the most part, but I feel like Mario deserves the same kinds of changes as Pikachu. Mario also is forced to either gimp with his weak aerials or get an fsmash read pretty much. Nair is kind of an option for edgeguarding but even that requires pretty high percent on most stages. I wouldn’t want to just turn him into Doc, but at least slightly increase his bair knockback or something. Maybe dsmash or usmash could be buffed just a little bit
Something that crossed my mind was, what about PAL Fox and Falco Shine? Maybe even do a compromise by having NTSC data, but have it be Frame 3 like Pal. Slightly nerfing Fox and Falco, but still being very oppressive.
One thing for Samus I'm surprised you didn't add that would also help watchability is to speed up Samus's recovery using her down B. It can take a long time depending on the stage for her to recover, especially on Dream Land.
I don't know how I missed this back when it released. Good video!
I do like a lot of your changes. Puff and ICs seem like some of the harder characters to change. I was expecting some sort of global change that makes running away or stalling less rewarding, but that's hard to do. Maybe a contextual onscreen timer, or a visual counter for ledge regrabs could make it easier to make rules that prevent people from abusing stalling.
I imagine that this comes from the perspective that the older version of melee would be unavailable to play or that the main draw behind the patch would be to make vanilla melee obsolete. But if the vanilla version is still available to play as it is now I seen very little reason for a patch to not drastically change the game and make something new out of Melee, since whatever way you change the game, players will not move from the competitive standard version.
I found the video very interesting even though I disagree with a lot of the reasoning.
Firstly, I think the list of goals has a few problems in that *A*: they aren't ordered in terms of priority and *B*: only one rule (number 3) tells us what to do, while the others tell us what not to do. I absolutely don't think that "Improve spectator experience" is the only goal we should strive for.
But even accepting the list, I don't think the proposed changes flow logically from those goals. A lot of them make things easier or more consistent but can not be justified using the goals listed at the start. Further more, the rule saying "maintain character playstyles" is applied very inconsistently. For Fox Up B you say that "although these changes are very slight they do unnecessarily alter the meta". But for DK you say "we can allow his currently underused ground moves to have more impact on the game so there are less wasted moves in the kit" *which is the definition* *of changing a playstyle*. You can't argue that DK needs changes but Fox doesn't because you've already claimed that balance is not a goal and you don't want to buff Ganon's Dtilt because it would change the way people play.
I feel like the rules set up at the start of the video only provides a veneer of rationality for something that is ultimately just personal bias.
Furthermore, the way you improve a character without changing their playstyle is a great number of small buffs distributed equally among their options. So that the power ratio remains consistent while the overall power is increased.
How to make melee balanced:
Step one: remove Fox
Hearing a 2013 galimatias song in 2022 on a melee video by the legend Kira makes me so happy
I understand your points but have a few concerns:
I think Samus’s Up b should be left as is (keeping charge is fine) as she can be considered a stereotypical zoner and as such should have a weaker gtfo move.
Ganon I know people say he’s hard to balance without changing the game, but maybe allowing him to side b from ledge or act out of air WizKick a few frames faster might help. It won’t change the game drastically and aids his survivability which as a heavy should be good anyway
Ganon isnt hard to balance.
Its that people dont want to accept what balance actually is with him.
@@williamwest9204 That’s the issue. Because people have a different idea of how to balance the game, that’s where the controversy lies. For example I’d say small buffs all around but some might say only a few moves etc
@@nikc101 well a great example of bad changes and ignoring the community would be Project Ms dev team and Sakurais logic going into ultimate.
The big issue with alot of players ideas of balance, especially melee players, is that they dont want balance, they dont want their character to face any extra challenge especially if they are a top tier main.
@@nikc101 and i say case by case based on design.
Smash fans flawed logic is that however Sakurai first made them is how any character similar should be. Like heavies must be slow and lightweights need to be fast
I love how @ 3:10 they do Mr. G&W's Nair as MrLz does it
The "forgotten" hitbox on falco Up-B.
Don't think it would change much or is it even a nerf?
Would be cool to see how it would affect things anyways.
That sponsor messed up, amazing vid & goat thumbnail
You forgot to mention fixing yoshi's dash grab not being able to grab sheik or marth half the time.
An overall change that I think would benefit the game without changing play patterns is removing meteor cancelling entirely. The most used spikes can't be meteor cancelled anyways, and almost all moves that are meteor smashes have significant wind up or are otherwise hard to hit with.
isn't hitstun tied to the damage % a move does? If so, that would maybe buff pikachu a lot. I could be wrong tho.
DK shouldn't lose giant punch when hit out of up b. Also give him and pikachu a usable shield.
I typically go by the no nerfs, only buffs mentality.
Bigger shields for bigger characters, improve bad recoveries, make Shiek a fast faller, make Pikachu's tail spike consistent as well as buff the rest of the aerials, let Link and Young Link pull out arrows and bombs faster, make heavy characters jumpsquat a lot faster, Ness can jump out of PSI magnet which now has a hitbox, etc. No nerfs. Just buffs.
I genuinely think the only thing that Ganon needs to at least be somewhat viable is to have a more active Nair, like Falcon. He has no long lasting aerial he can approach with, on top of also being really slow. His best option currently is wavedash in and either jab or grab. His gameplan wouldn't change at all really, he would just have a tool to actually engage his opponent instead of getting whiff punished on every interaction by the opponent back dashing
To make melee ganon more viable you either have to increase his speed some, or lower the angle on some of his key moves so u cant just DI tank them to well over a 100%.
Don't forget gnw's spotdodge, as it leaves him more vulnerable than it does actually help dodge attacks
If Game and Watch is able to L cancel his aerials, then Luigi should have his dash attack fixed as well as Falcon having his up air fixed so they have their old final hitbox.
Phantom hits are sick when you understand why they occur.
I completely agree with perfect balance or near-perfect balance being a misguided goal, but I do think that it could be pushed a little in that direction without actually making big or any changes to the order of the tiers. I also think that you are ignoring some easy and effective ways to change the top characters that would leave their play entirely intact. For example:
-Moves that have set knockback or effectively set knockback only need to deal minimum damage so they deal shield stun. Setting the damage on Falco laser and Fox shine to 1% won't change what those moves can do or why they are used. It will just promote the use of other moves to actually deal damage. These moves are already incredibly effective aside from the damage they deal.
-Moves that do not start combos or continue combos can be made more punishable. This can be done by increasing the ending lag on an attack that won't be followed up(Marth fsmash) or by adding vulnerability when missing a combo-worthy hit(remove/nerf the sourspot on Fox upsmash)
And some more global changes:
-Throw speed. You mentioned this a bit with Sheik, but I'm thinking of something a little different. Some characters enjoy great mixups due to throw speed. Their throws are so fast that it's very hard to react to the throw animation with your DI. A lot of the time you have to make a read on which way they might throw and the throwers can opt out of the obvious throw choice to get extra the benefits of using an off-throw against bad DI. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is something that should lean closer to normalization. This could be done either by slowing down unreactible throws or by speeding up the extra slow ones.
-Ledge/Respawn Invulnerability. Characters in this game have so many unique stats. Its a small request that people might be asked to learn a little bit more about the characters. Like with weights or jumpsquats we could benefit a lot by making classes or even entirely character-unique values for for ledge and respawn invulnerability. When it comes to respawn, the effectiveness of the value changes with stage size, character speed, and character reach. The stage size can't really factor into a character change, but I think we could factor in an average there as well as speed/reach to come up with unique respawn invulnerabilities that add a slight push in a balanced direction. For ledge invulnerability the factors are different but the goal would be the same and in the case of the ledge I think this would be a situation with just a little nerfing and a little buffing for the extreme cases on either end.
Character specific changes:
Here I just wanna say that I agree with your sentiments that playstyles and knowledge should be kept intact. There are a number of good changes that could be made here especially to the bad characters but listing those isn't really the point of my comment.
No character with the Marths speed should have a hit box and grab like that. Getting anywhere near Marth is lethal and any hit can turn into juggling/grabbing. Even at the highest levels other mains spend most the match running from him, firing projectiles, and keeping a safe distance till they see a hole to hit him and hopefully start a string of combos.
Mans really said keep wobble