I always saw the Sovereign as a Flagship above all in a literal sense. A ship capable of projecting power with both it's luxury for diplomacy or it's military might. The mere sight of a Sovereign would create awe in allies or fear in enemies, especially if it was as overpowered as some sources say.
Picard is no fool. In times of war, you need gun boat diplomacy. If the Federation fractured out of fear from the Dominion, it would be a game over scenario for the alpha and beta quadrants. And I absolutely buy into the idea of the Sovvies being super powered. Best engines, best guns, best sensors, with only a handful ever built. They serve the same purpose as the original Enterprise in TOS. Either exploring the frontier, or doing diplomatic work in high tension regions of space. This ensures they are self sufficient and capable of tackling any tasks they encounter. Especially during a time of war when the bulk of the fleet is too busy to lend a helping hand.
Timothy Ashe I would think it would be quite easy for him to justify: if you can head off conflict by showing a strong presence, it's better for everyone. There are opponents whom need a bit of a threat to even listen to reason (Klingons come to mind), and if you can make those threats stop and listen to your words for a minute, the extra bit of militarism is well worth it. Better to serve as a deterrent than invite war with weakness- that benefits no one. And in a time where the Federation has had some very real threats from the Romulan Empire,. a renewed Klingon war, the Cardassian Border wars and Dominion War et cetera, it is beyond naive and foolish to project anything but firm strength. Picard is of course often depicted as an idealist, but it is a pragmatic idealism of a sort. Compare him to Spock for example- Spock was logical, and did not let his emotions inform his every decision. But even he when advising Kirk during "Balance of Terror" advised attacking first as "weakness is something we dare not show." Which also as an aside is something that makes me laugh when Trekkies cite the aggressive Vulcans in either Enterprise or Discovery as out of character- Vulcans may have had reasonably firm morality/ethics, but when it was logical, they were also perfectly willing to be brutal if necessary. If killing 10 or 100 could potentially save millions, they were not so squeamish as to fail to bow to the pure logic of the situation.
Everything I've ever seen implies that the Sovereign class is the flagship, symbol of Federation power and intent. Primarily serving as a command ship instead of a front line warship. The Defiant and Akira classes are the ones that serve as the enforcer units within Federation space and the front line.In the Voyager series; they say that the Voyager is equipped with experimental bio-circuitry. It would make sense that you wouldn't put a bunch of experimental tech into your Flagship....but you would put the best of all your tested and proven tech into it. Even then you would avoid placing your greatest symbol on the front lines in any major conflict because no matter how good or OP it's built, it's the juiciest target for the enemy fleet to cripple your morale and war effort.The Federation would have the enemy doing what they do to the Borg: "Open a channel to the fleet; all ships lock weapons on that target!"
Remember that the Enterprise E didn't destroy the Borg cube on its own in First Contact. It was Picard's experience to know where to shoot it - Data says 'these don't look like vital systems' and Picard told the rest of the ships left where to concentrate firepower. No matter how good they make the ships out to be, it always came down to the crew coming up with a solution.
I think both Spacedock and you are right on the ships. The Defiant, Akira, Steamrunner and Sovereign were all designed to fight the Borg. The battle against the Borg was by the far Starfleet's most devastating loss up to that point, and a single ship punched through to Earth like it was nothing. It showed them just how vulnerable they could be, so it makes sense that they would build something to help defend themselves. While it wasn't until First Contact that another Borg cube came directly Earth's way, the Borg were still on the fringes enough to remain a concern (and would a few years really be enough for Starfleet to go "Eh, they're probably not a threat anymore"?). But that doesn't mean that Starfleet would have only built those ships expressly for combat against the Borg. The Defiant was build years prior to the discovery of the Dominion, so it can't have been built in response. Akira, Steamrunner and Sovereign were all introduced around the start of the Federation-Dominion cold war. So either they have an incredibly short design, construction and trials cycle, or they must have been in development beforehand. The Defiant failed its initial trials, causing it to be mothballed in favour of other designs, using what they learned while building the Defiant to improve those designs, and while it was pulled back out in response to the Dominion, no reason to think that if Starfleet had detected increased Borg activity, that they wouldn't have done the same.
Also, if you take Picard's speech/rant to Lily on First Contact at face value, there were Borg incursions that didn't involve the Enterprise or DS9 and so never got shown on tv...
there's also Ensign crusher ;) also my guess is they only refer to the people from Starfleet Academy required to run two or three shifts and honestly if you're having a ship of that size, having 250 specialists on a shift doesn't really sound that odd, O'Brien didn't go through SA, he came up through the ranks as one of the Menials, whom in turn need an NCO to be steered, whom in turn is steered by one of the Officers, O'Brien had the good fortune to make a stellar career as an Engineer to be noted, one of the reasons he got picked for DS-9 as he did prove himself capable and knowledgeable
@@joshuagiehll3737 Yeah, O'Brien was called Chief on the Enterprise, but he was also a Lieutenant at the time. He wasnt made an actual NCO until he was reassigned to DS9. And even then he wasnt given a proper Senior Chief Petty Officer rank pin until they got the new uniforms.
Just like maps are either Northern Hemisphere bias or American Continent bias, Star Trek is Officer bias. Pretty sure there were 3-5 Enlisted persons per Officer but they never made the show as it would not be "as fun", who wants to follow the enlisted reg' whose whole job is to maintain the waste collector and recycling
I thought the Sovereign Enterprise E was sort of a return to greatness for the Enterprise lineage. The D had been considered the fastest and most powerful ship in the fleet during TNG, but after TNG ended the Defiant and Voyager sorta surpassed her in those categories. I thought the E was a magnificent cinematic ship.
Warp 8 would be the cruising speed of the vessel, which means fastest speed at safest conditions, while warp 9.98, is the fast speed, under the most critical conditions. Similarly the TOS Enterprise had a crusing speed of Warp 6 & a critical speed, used in only the most extreme conditions was warp 8.
You forget also in TNG the Big D had a cruising speed of warp 6 while able to go 9.6, and did so (especially warp 9) on many occasions. In reality, high speed all the time would simply damage your engines in the long run (as they did in TNG).
The way I see it, it's mainly a feature of the flagship of the time. Starfleet wants its best ship and crew to be at the frontlines as fast as possible. She can cruise along at 8, but when its needed, she'll exceed that greatly.
There are three main speeds if I recall. You've got your cruising speed as you said, then you have two more. Maximum Sustainable Warp, and Maximum Warp. - Cruising speed is your most efficient speed. Most bang for your buck fuel goes the longest, engine parts aren't stressed, etc. - Maximum Sustainable Warp is the fastest you can go if you don't mind your ship being a gas guzzler, but you can sustain that speed pretty much indefinitely until you run out of fuel. - Maximum Warp is redlining the engines. You can only do that for a few hours or half a day or whatnot. The limitation would be that you start risking things breaking much, much faster, forcing you to drop out of warp and shut the engines down for the repairs. A lot of people, who aren't engineering geeks, just hear someone say 'it can go X speed' and don't know there even are CW, MSW, and MW numbers. But for all intents and purposes, if the Enterprise has to get somewhere YESTERDAY and shoot things like the Borg, they'll be pulling that MW number out and come screaming in at Warp 9.98, or however many decimal places of nines they tack on. But at the end of the day, all ships named Enterprise have the advanced Dramatic Warp Engine installed. The Dramatic Warp Engine allows the ship to travel at the Speed of Plot. It will always go just fast enough to arrive at the right moment.
This class of ship was a dreadnought battleship, it was meant to fight anything and everything. The Enterprise being commanded by the most trusted crew in the fleet and operating near Earth would most likely be equipped with Starfleet's most advanced weapons and defensive technologies. As the wars progressed they would inevitably bring all possible technologies into service but the best would be limited to ships that were unlikely to be captured or defeated so that technology would no fall into enemy hands.
"The Enterprise is simply too powerful." Sounds about right. And since the Sovereign Class is my favorite Starfleet design, and presumably the most advanced ship class in the fleet (bar perhaps the Prometheus), I don't see a problem with that!
Yeah, me too. It seems many Trek ship fans have an opinion on that outcome. My in universe projection is that the endurance of the Sovereign in both power generation and durability as well as torpedo firepower would put her over the Prometheus in combat. And if that Sovereign happens to be the Enterprise, well... from an outside universe perspective, the definitive Trek Hero Ship is not going down even to a technological marvel like the Prometheus. My compliments on your channel! I can't wait to watch you break down the the DS9 battles.
Of course not, they are built to fill the shoes (huge ones!) left by the Galaxy-Class, the previous flagship class and of course the Federation wants to extend its capabilities, so those ships will most certainly not be slower, less well armed, less efficient etc. (sorry, Lore, but that just would not make a lick of sense!) - the opposite is likely true (meaning: More and better weapons, better and faster drives, faster recharging (regenerative most likely) and stronger shields, better accomodations for the crew (without families! Seriously that was the dumbest thing in TNG!) etc.)!
It's kind of amazing if you think about it that the Federation would be so quick to dismiss the idea of particular threats no longer being a problem with no actual resolution to the issue. When you are dealing with galaxy-wide forces and actions that may take place over centuries or millennia deciding that because you haven't seen a particular species in a few years that they are no longer a threat is downright insane.
Don't get me wrong 'cause I _love_ Star Trek, but with all the major setting faults the series (and nearly all sci-fi) has... That'd be a minor issue...
It's the logical outgrowth of what I like to call the "Roddenberry Kumbaya" Philosophy. "They haven't attacked us, and they aren't overtly threatening us, ergo they obviously want Peace. Nothing to see here...move along." That's always been my major sticking point with Star Trek (even though I adore it); The Federation flitting around the cosmos thinking happy thoughts and breathing unicorn farts pretending all you need is love while the rest of the universe keeps turning and tries to kill everything in sight...as the Universe is wont to do. I have no problems with positive thinking and trying to build the world you want to live in, but the cognitive dissonance of the Federation about how dangerous the Universe really is can be nothing short of dumbfounding.
Andrew King. Or its just an artifact of episodic story telling, its hard to focus in this weeks big bad if last weeks is still steamrolling your people in the background. Its also best not to dispose of a good badguy to quickly, might need filler down the road!
I always though that, while the federation is peaceful, it seemed to have some of the most powerful and technologically advanced ships. Making even their "not made for war" ships at least as powerful as their "made for war" counterparts from other species. Examples include : the Constitution class, capable of taking on two Klingon ships of its size. the Galaxy class, capable of taking on two Klingon or Romulan ships of its size. And many more smaller. I kind of view it as : others make for quantity, the federation makes for quality. Every ship is twice its counterpart but it costs 3 times more to make. Also when they started making warships they were more powerful then other's.
well these are the same guys why have no MILITARY, even though the federation is literally surrounded by hostile or unpredictable (eg klingons) powers. that's without the dominion or the borg.
Would it not be logical to conclude that the Sovereign, Akira, Steamrunner, Intrepid, Norway, and Promethius class ships were developed to face both the Borg and Dominion? With more and more enemies pressing against the Federation, Starfleet needed to militarize.
Also, don’t forget that modern large ships and planes typically take a decade or more to go from concept to finished product. The Boeing 787 started as an idea for a near-supersonic plane in the late 90’s before becoming the model we know today about 10-15 years later. Things can change over time.
Just development time you might expect for a new flagship-class ship and some of the other designs/technologies could be expected to run over even if they had started immediately on the Defiant and kept going even after deciding *that* design wasn't where they wanted to go with the Fleet, or that they just didn't have the knowhow yet to make it work. (Chances are there were dozens of issues Utopia Planitia didn't want to spend the resources solving over an 'escort' vessel that ended up solved anyway while Defiant was sitting in mothballs. O'Brien's good, but not that much better than the Advanced Design Bureau (and the Sisko) put together. He just had like six years' later knowledge to start from. So you can bet they were working on a *lot* of things, maybe too many of these ship classes at once, starting with 'Oh, crap, there's Borg out there.' If you don't assume stupidity. :) "Let's see, should we get these Akiras and Steamrunners into lots of production, or gamble on pushing the envelope to maybe make this pimphand ship go to specs?" What's the sane choice? )
No see...there are only 24 decks, but they skip certain numbers like 13 and a number of other numbers considered unlucky by various federation member planets. The highest deck number will, no doubt, keep increasing as the federation adds new members like Bajor. (YES, OF COURSE I'M JOKING)
I could see them still aiming for The Borg while designing them. One cube nearly took Earth alone. Aim to kill Borg, and you basically wreck everything else you may have to fight by proxy.
@@LoreReloaded given how real militaries design ships and how many years it can take to get a design approved it's more then realistic that Starfleet came up with many ships designed to fight the Borg originally and when the threat died down the good designs were just modified to fight the dominion.
that would make sense, we see Starfleet initially taking the Borg seriously, having an entire department dedicated to doing shit to try and defeat them it's definately plausible that the Defiant, Akira, Saber, Sovereign etc were initially designed as anti-Borg vessels, then as LR stated, the threat died down, the Defiant prototype was moth balled (the Saber and Akira may well have been possible alternate Defiants) Dominion Cold War starts Starfleet quietly pull out their old AB blueprints war goes hot Oh fuck we don't have any warships, we have science ships and glorified cruise ships oh fuck start cranking out Akira and Saber classes and bring the Defiant into service Sovereign become the new enterprise but basiclally went throught the same process of we need ships to fight the Borg meh they're gone oh shit oh fuck *grabs random blueprint from the bottom of classified design files*
Reasearch and Development never stops, got to keep those bright and talented minds busy, besides it's relatively cheap. In contrast setting up mass production and building ships and weapons is expensive and takes somewhat more incentive to make happen.
... The stupid thing was built to fight the borg. Of course it's stupidly overpowered. Granted, it's supposedly even more expensive than the galaxies. It's basically the Iowa of starships. And yes, it does make sense for starfleet to have an anti-borg fleet. The anti-borg ships are too expensive to be making the backbone of their fleet, but it does make sense to have a tactical core upon which to base the next generation of vessels upon.
@@DarthMalgusSith_Lord Not strictly true. Even without money, Replication requires a Base input. it does not just magic something out of nothing. Also there are a LOT of materials tat are not able to be replicated. Tritanium for instance, as well as Dilithium.
With reference to the missions the USS Enterprise-E is sent on (we know they weren't on the front lines by the dialogue from Star Trek: Voyager), the Sovereign Class becomes a statement of intent wherever it's sent, a message that says, "We're here, we know you know that we're here, and we have a bite to match our bark", in similar vein to what the Negh'var Class represented for the Klingon Empire. About it being anti-Borg, I can definitely see the argument that it wasn't exclusively created to battle the Borg; however, Wolf 359 created a paradigm shift within Starfleet, and the Sovereign is the natural evolution of that shift. The reason why you see technologies like Type XII Phaser Arrays and Regenerative Shields mentioned is that they were actually available if you selected the Sovereign Class when playing Star Trek: Starship Creator Deluxe, the latter obviously influenced by the USS Prometheus in "Message in a Bottle". The Type XII Phaser Arrays were again referenced in Star Trek: Starfleet Command III. The Sovereign Class is obviously an evolution of the Galaxy Class, which is why creature comforts like a Gymnasium are mentioned, and is probably why you hear Saucer Separation mentioned so frequently. Personally, I think Saucer Separation is a gimmick, and the number of times it is practical is far outnumbered by the situations it isn't. The argument against is also augmented by not having an impulse engine on the secondary hull, which is a key feature that made both hulls of the Galaxy Class maneuverable relative to each other.. The "Warp Travel Beyond Warp 5 Hurts the Fabric of Space" was also a poor attempt to create an ongoing narrative, and much like "Balance of Terror" where James Kirk only then learns of the existence of the Romulan Star Empire, I believe the writers for Star Trek, collectively, have decided to pretend that it never happened. The Captain's Yacht is an odd one; we know from the TNG Technical Manual that it's a thing, but Insurrection made it look like a run-of-the-mill shuttle, just docked to the ventral side of hull, much like the never-seen "Aeroshuttle" that's theorised to be docked to the underside of the Intrepid Class's ventral primary hull. If it were specifically outfitted to have non-standard functionality, I'd agree it would be useful, but this ends up sharing the genre of "gimmick" to me. Overall, I like the ship's design; it's sleek, functional, and visually appealing, and definitely represents a step up from those that came before it.
The treaty was conducted over Subspace Radio without visual contact. United Earth never knew who their opponents were. This took place before the Federation's founding.
People know their Beta Canon around here :-P I think the Captain' Yacht does make sense. You state yourself that the Sovereign class has a lot of representative functions, sent out to show presence, or to go on diplomatic missions where a bit of a display of "how awesome we are" is necessary. Having a shuttle dedicated for diplomatic uses does make sense then. it's good first impression if you come with a shuttle that has a n specially sleek design (probably also interior) and is not the same shuttle used for cargo hauling.
"Saucer Separation" isn't a gimmick, the Galaxy Class ability to re-attach a separated saucer was the gimmick, and now everyone seems to think that specific ability means "saucer separation" when it doesn't. I've gathered from countless sources over the years that a great many Starfleet designs were capable of saucer separation...once. This would make engineering (though not tactical) sense since a separated saucer could, in theory, have a new drive section constructed onto it at shipyards and returned to service, and in the event of a catastrophic failure or core breach, awaiting rescue in a functional saucer section would be far preferable to hanging out in lifepods and waiting for the nearest Starfleet vessel to respond and affect a rescue. Completed hull sections between Saucer and Drive sections would require relatively minimal addition construction, as would a forcible-separation system to sever any and all connections. In the end, it would be a very economical and logical decision. I recall numerous references to saucer separation (though i don't remember exactly where) throughout Star Trek history...even Kirk discussing it at one point with Scotty (who informed him that "if we seperate, I canna put her back together.") Perhaps it's a misnomer to say "saucer separation" and saying that "the drive section could be jettisoned" would be more accurate, but regardless of what you call it, it wouldn't make sense for it to NOT be possible in vessels with a defined and non-integrated saucer section.
I shall state the reasons I think it's a gimmick. First off, the only real situation this would ever be necessary is if the ship's Matter/Antimatter Reaction Chamber were unable to be contained. That said, it's important to mention that there are actually two kinds of Warp Core Breaches; the first is the most obvious, a loss of antimatter containment that results in a chain reaction, causing the almost complete destruction of the ship. The second is a Thermal Breach; this is where the Reaction Chamber cannot be cooled by the plasma coolant assembly. This would cause a detonation of similar intensity to the above, but it would have a delay before the thermal limits of the reaction chamber itself were breached. The explosion seen in Star Trek: Generations was the latter, and the coolant's failure meant that a) The evacuation of the Star Drive section's crew complement could be evacuated to the Saucer section and b) The Saucer section was able to complete a separation manoeuvre. If the Bird of Prey had actually managed to damage a more critical component of the Warp Propulsion system, the Saucer separation would have been moot. When looking at dangerous situations, it's a very expensive tradeoff to decide to effectively get rid of the Matter/Antimatter Reaction Assembly. In the vast majority of cases, the resources of the Star Drive section are invaluable to the success of mission at hand. Dragging the conversation back to the Sovereign class, I'm again not seeing an Impulse Engine on the Secondary Hull; this would be a monumental disadvantage in the event of any separation event. Now, you made reference to an entirely different mechanic, and that's an Emergency Jettison event. I do believe this to be something employed on most Starship classes (but not all), if only for safety purposes. As found in the TNG Technical Manual, the nacelles of the Galaxy Glass were designed to be explosively jettisoned in the event of a problem, although this was never shown on screen.
According to both Memory Alpha AND all available technical drawings I can find, both primary Impulse Engines are on the aft Saucer section (see 0:10 of the video, top-down profile, the two red sections aft.) Even the Constitution class had its Impulse Assemblies on the saucer, not the drive section.
The Captain's Yacht was seen in Insurrection. The Sovereign class was designed without Saucer Separation in mind, it was then added as a "proof of concept" by John Eaves, but never confirmed as an actual thing, just a "what if".
Actually, the E-E was fully designed when Eaves created a "possible" separation. I'm pretty sure Trekyards did an interview with Eaves about the E-E and he stated this.
I know there was postulation way back when, that the original USS Enterprise was capable of saucer separation as a lifeboat function, in case the warp core went critical - it's why the impulse drive was mounted at the back of the saucer. Such function was included in many Federation ships through the years, with the Enterprise-D having tactical application for having combat separation. I would see no reason why the Sovereign class might not include "lifeboat" separation.
Honestly, given everything they have to do and putting it together, I can see gaffes like that. I've done worse..but yea, a lot of people get paid a lot of money.. I would hope they'd be ontop of it.
seems sovereign was supposed to be an 'everything' ship, they just took the best of whatever they had to make the greatest ship. it's the opposite of the stripped-down defiant, which was designed to be cheap, minimal crewed, small and agile, but outside battle don't have the science facilities to solve problems. one is minimalist, the other maximalist. it's the ship u sent to impress, or to cow into submission...
I think they call that a dreadnought. It's a ship bristling with guns, but also fast, but also heavily armored..... In this case also comfortable. Definitely the ship to send to drive home your point, as you said..... The Defiant is more like a short-range, rapid-response attack or escort vessel. It's a little slow at top speed, no creature comforts, but man you don't want to be on the receiving end when she points her guns at you.
The difference between the Borg threat and the Dominion threat is that you could see the Dominion coming. The Borg could plunk down a transwarp conduit right into your softest spot and launch a full-throated invasion from the place you're least able to defend. Since you always knew when you sent a ship out to face the Dominion that you were doing so, you could purpose-build specialized ships for that. With the Borg, you'd always be scrambling to use any ship in the area, which means being forced to anti-Borgify your whole fleet in general even if they weren't expected to fight Borg.
My standing theory about every event after Star Trek Generations is that Picard never really left the Nexus. It is interesting to look at the rest of the TNG movies and think of them as an aging man's Nexus dreams. It certainly explains the Sovereign's Mary Sue-ness.
Saucer separation on a warship makes some sense too. If part of it is so damaged it would be better to abandon that part after salvaging what you could for parts and storing them on the other part, there's that. Also, you could be a single ship to both fight and flank the same enemy.
Just because you dont see an enemy for six years, doesn't mean you forget about them and do not prepare for them. The Federation was preparing for both the Dominion and the Borg. We also see in Voyager at the end that the Borg were creating new hubs and rethinking their strategy of how to attack the Federation.
The ships you listed in the video were most likely anti-borg weapons. While you give a time line to back your theory,(Wolf 359 to Dominion war), you don't factor in a few things. Like how long does it take to design and build a ship? NCC 1701-D was built from 2243 to 2245. When you factor in design time, shakedown runs and other miscellaneous stuff, it makes more sense these ships were created as anti-borg weapons. They just got deployed to fight the Dominion.
"The Sovereign is an absolutely beautiful ship." I agree; it seems to borrow some of the best events from the TMP refit and the D. I always thought the D looked unbalanced and bloated. However, the TMP refit will always be my favorite in terms of aesthetic appeal.
Well, having a library in today's sense of the word (a place where books are stored for shared access) wouldn't make much sense when books are sets of data and not physical objects made of paper. But a "library" as place where information can be accessed particularly well (e.g. not having to deal with bandwidth issues, being able to use display devices other than P.A.D.D.s) or providing a place where groups of people can work together, that's not one of their personal quarters, would still make sense.
I think initially these ships were in-fact put on the drawing board with the intent on fighting the Borg. Im sure even in the 24th Century it takes a decade or two to design a new ship. Sure during the design phase new threats would come forward changing things and rushing to service. So yea they were designed for the Borg but finalized for the Dominion. You could say if it were not for the Borg SF would not have been prepared for the Dominion.
My dear chap - the reason that people consider the vessels at the battle of Sector Zero Zero One to be the Anti-Borg fleet - is because Shelby says as much on screen. Also there is no reason what so ever that you can't both be right - they are the "anti-Borg fleet" and they are also in pert built for other reasons. Such as the Norway & Steamrunner were built to replace the ageing Excelsior class, the Saber to replace the Obereth (as well as to act as a scout class vessel) & the Akira to replace or supplement the Ambassador class as well as to act as a strike cruiser. No to mention the Intrepid was also designed to supplement or replace the Miranda and Obereth as well as act as medium class vessel (a frigate of sorts) not to mention it was also a technology demonstrator of her era (much like the Nebula was before her and the Excelsior before that). All the classes of vessel that were old or of only limited use into the 2360's were pretty much abandoned and replaces with vessels that had a more overt offence and defence (unlike the ships at the battle of Wolf 359 - some of which would have barely held their own against Cardassians). So think of the federation mindset - they build ineffectual and weak science vessels and explorers that got smashed to pieces by the borg and that could barely hold up to the Cardassians in the 2360's the Romulans come back sporting a ship bigger than the pride of their fleet.. and they meet an enemy that would run right over them and another not that long after that would do the same. It was expected that the Borg who eventually showed up in First Contact would have arrived in force in about a decade (perhaps more) so just because Janeway later gave them a good slap doesn't mean the choices made in the 2360's would have lead to building tougher ships. So lets look at the designs of the new ships. Lower profile (harder to hit) Armoured Nacelles & smaller Bussards More weapons and larger torpedo spreads - eventually Quantum Torpedoes Armoured panels on key areas More phaser strips and ones of a higher power output and often longer strips (Though some of the older ship have long strips too - they are older style strips). So the time line seems pretty obvious really and there isn't any contradiction - some rejigging went on like the Nova class starting as a scrappy little ship and ending up more as a short range scout and science ship (much like a less aggressive looking Saber). As for the movable nacelle struts - I think that is a bit of an in joke referring to the way the ship used to have struts facing the other way & how the height of the nacelles above the saucer was changed (for look - but not really a very good idea for protection). ---- As for those plates on the E's saucer I'd suggest several possible explanations. 1) The hid auxiliary components we never saw - maybe even warp sustainers for the saucer. 2) They are heavy armour over a key component underneath (like the computer core or Impulse fusion reactors) much like Prometheus also has 3) They are heavy secondary deflector systems that cover the bridge and the impulse exhausts. 4) They could be radiators to dump the heat caused by the new phasers or the engines. ---- As for the Engines looking similar to the old ones - they do have a totally different internal layout to most 2360's vessels one shared by the Nova Class and Prometheus. I suspect (But I've not checked) this is a function of the new 'swirl' warp core design it also is why the ships doesn't cause damage to subspace. It maybe that ships of the 2360's with their double coil designs they share with the D are the main cause of such damage and Miranda and Excelsiors were an easy fix. If it wasn't as easy to do that with the others that adds further reasons why the older post lost years ships disappeared from service and ceased being made (or at least shown). I consider it likely that all those other ship classes were in use - just never shown.
Shelby, my good lad, says they will rebuild the fleet. I'm not sure if she says anti borg fleet.. and she definetly does not - my sweet crumpet' - ever say akira, steam runner, or anything of the sort.. my lovely maiden
Lore Reloaded I think that the Dominion War forced the Federation to check its own naivety and optimism, and they saw that they needed to grow up. The Universe is dangerous, and the Federation wasn't prepared. As a result, they took awful losses during the Dominion War, and needed to build a more advanced and stronger fleet, replacing the old and outdated ships. The Dominion just knocked the Federation out of their hubris attitudes, to realize that the Borg and other threats were real, and Starfleet had better get off of their asses to pair their now battle-hardened Officers with ships capable of fighting effectively and not just as explorers. The return of Voyager along with the knowledge and technologies they brought back only underscored their need to prepare. The Borg are coming, and so far they'd just been extraordinarily lucky that the Borg hadn't yet chosen to focus on the Federation just yet, giving them time to prepare. Some have speculated that the Q Continuum might have had a hand in that, keeping the Borg occupied until the Federation had time to get stronger. (All that keeping in mind that we're talking about a fictional universe.)
just my own personal theory on the matter, but I think Federation politics played a larger role in what was built than initially suspected. rather that there might be at least 2 or more feuding political positions within starfleet, your TNG pacifistic at all costs group prioritizing exploration and science, and the more militant aspects of the federation (I.E. Sisko) who would want and push for newer vessels that can handle themselves better than TNG designs. I think at the time of the battle of sector 0 0 1 your classic TNG policy makers were very much the dominant faction and this is why the anti-borg designs were not produced then and there, so it would be the dominion war that would put the more militant aspects of starfleet to the forefront and allow for desperately needed new designs, that yes were initially created to handle the borg, but the dominion is not as technologically powerful as the borg which would make the new ships more than adequate for the current threat
Shelby was in charge of Starfleet's tactical analysis and defensive planing for a potential Borg invasion and was given the lead role of the task force responsible for rebuilding the fleet fresh after they just got rekt by the Borg. The Dominion was non-existent at this point. Like, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that these ships were built with the Borg specifically in mind.
I think the design of intrepid class was heavily influenced by the romulams becoming more of a threat. (From TNG) more manoverable than a warbird and as powerful as a galaxy. Hence this is why it so powerful.
Always will be my favorite Enterprise, and with the Defiant my favorite Starfleet vessels. Your flagships should be warships; exploration should be secondary. Let the Luna class be your prime exploration vessels; The word 'sovereign' sends a subtle but clear message of 'battle-ready.'
I think using a term such as "Anti-Borg" might just have been a convenient catchall in the federation. After Wolf-359 the Federation would have seen the massive gap in their ships combat abilites. Even after the Dominion War started the "Anti-Borg" annishiative may have just been the nod and wink to saying warships. Starfleet records will only say Anti-Borg rather then Warship thus politicians can claim it all as defence and not warships.
The idea of overwhelming the Borg with firepower, when they can adapt to any attack is stupid. The Borg weren't beaten by phasers and torpedoes at the end of Best of Both Worlds.
@@andrewdevine3920 Sure but the idea of making everything politically palatable for the general public is sound. The average Federation voter would probably accept greater firepower working on the Borg.
@@andrewdevine3920 because they kill cubes quicker, giving them less time to adapt. There are thousands of phaser frequencies to choose from, and it needs to locate each one. Even if it takes only 2 seconds.
Given what the Sovereign class had, it really starts to make me think the joke about getting rid of problem captains by sending an oberth against the borg may not be a joke.
The Sovereign-class Starship was not designed to battle the relatively conventional Dominion but the incalculable threat posed by the Borg. As such,the ship had to have a compact design, insanely powerful weapons and advanced technologies just to keep pace with the Collective. The Sovereign also uses a noticeably more powerful warp drive than on previous starships,as evidenced by the considerably larger warp core in Engineering. Non-canon sources such as the DITL indicate that the new warp drive was designed to allow the Sovereign to reach potential trouble spots in a relatively short period of time and I believe that. It simply makes sense to me. It also makes sense that the Enterprise and her sister Sovereigns would also be equipped with ablative armor and regenerative shields,even though they are not explicitly mentioned in dialogue. We know for a fact that she is equipped with quantum torpedoes, which is explicitly mentioned as Borg-fighting weaponry. Evidence of the regenerative shielding can be found in Star Trek:Nemesis when Shinzon takes his sweet time disabling the Enterprise enough for his boarding party to capture Picard--although his need to get Picard alive may have quite a bit to do with this. As the Sovereign and her sisters would also be assigned to long patrols of border territories, they would naturally be equipped with the necessary luxuries one would expect from a modern Starfleet vessel to ensure maximum performance of the ship's crew,such as comfortably equipped quarters and holodecks. As for the Sovereign's presence, or lack thereof, during the Dominion War,I argue that it takes a significant amount of time, even in the 24th century to build starships the size of the Sovereign-class or even the Constitution-class. As the existing Miranda and Excelsior-class ships were more numerous and more available than the Sovereign-class, that,along with the Galaxy-class, was what Starfleet went along with, with predictable results. This wouldn't be the first time Starfleet would use older ship classes to bolster their ability to assemble a combat ready fleet in an emergency,as evidenced by Picard's blockade of Romulan space during the Klingon Civil War. The Star Trek Starship Spotter describes the Sovereign-class as, "the best balance of exploratory and tactical capability since the Constitution-class,a century earlier" and I believe it. With the tactical power of the Defiant-class and the scientific research and long-range exploration capabilities of the Galaxy-class,the class really is the best of both worlds.
One of the reasons they stopped developing the defiant was some technical issues with the systems. Sisko mentioned these in a DS9 episode when he brought the defiant back.
The Sovereign is my second-favorite ship after the Excelsior. Even at a century old, I would have an (upgraded) Excelsior hull as my chosen vessel as an admiral.
As a model builder, one thing of which I am deeply aware is that the Sovereign class ship appeared in three (actually four) distinct configurations. When she first appeared in “First Contact,” she was filmed both from a physical model and a CGI model based on the studio model. The original AMT (now Polar Lights) 1/1400 scale kit was based largely on this model, although with some deficiencies due to the limitations of 3D mapping and mold making technology of the time. The captain’s yacht is visible on the studio model, as is the distinct line where the hull separation was designed to take place. John Eaves talked about it in Star Trek Magazine. The CGI model underwent some fairly significant upgrades for “Insurrection,” without any major changes in proportion, but with significant detail changes. In particular, we see the captain’s yacht, the Argo, undock from the bottom of the saucer section. We also see that it shares space in the hull with a torpedo launcher. The overall color palette is also darker, and the area around the deflector is more rounded. This last was actually the originally planned design, which was modified back in “First Contact,” to simplify construction of the sets for the scenes around the deflector and the studio model. The hull details were improved and we saw some additional weapons emplacements. The CGI model was essentially rebuilt from scratch for “Nemesis.” This resulted in a few significant changes in proportion as compared to the previous iterations. The pylons were angled slightly upward and forward, resulting in the warp nacelles being slightly higher and closer in relation to the primary hull. Additional torpedo launchers aft were added and the interface between the upper rear of the primary hull, with its hangar bay was changed significantly. Overall this changed the proportions of the ship enough to possibly result In a different internal deck layout. The layout of the windows on the hull also changed subtly, which again speaks to a possible reconfiguration of the decks. Once again, the color palette also changed as well, becoming darker still. We only catch a glimpse of the fourth configuration, when Enterprise is under repair in space dock at the end of “Nemesis.” Production sketches of this configuration have also been published. Changes included heavier warp pylons, and additional structural enhancements. One can posit that improved weaponry and shielding were also included in this refit. What does all of this mean? It makes the proportions and size of the Sovereign class difficult to pin down, and when building the kit, a modeler has to decide early on which variant to build, and modify or replace kit parts as necessary. I am very curious to see which variant(s) details made it into the Eaglemoss collectible. My suspicion based on what I have seen of it is that it is probably, like the AMT model, based on the original production drawings, with a rounded housing for the deflector, and the other details matching the studio model.
I don't think that these ships were build as anti-Borg but that was their intent and original design inspiration. The push of Dominion threat forced the designs either out of mothballs, onto the production line sooner, and/or slightly adjusted. If the fact that the Sovereign is dead set as anti-Borg, it's possible it was closest to the end of it's development that they didn't bother to make any changes considering how complex of a ship it was. I would have loved to have seen some Sovereign action in the Dominion War.
I had this thought to, but then when you consider the defiant.. Would they really continue construction when the first ship failed and the defiant was moth balled? DS9 dialogue make it seem like this was the only ship in production and it failed. And it would have been cool. We all know why it wasn't in real life.. DARN PARAMOUNT
Lore Reloaded The Defiant I think was first from the new ship design initiative. It would make sense given it's size and purpose, or more time and resources were allocated to the development of the Sovereign...which might explain how a couple small escort destroyer, a light cruiser, a heavy cruiser, and a battleship all went into production and service around the same time. But on another thought. Given the threat level of the Borg, when they do attack, you could say the same weapon systems would be equally as effective if not more so against Dominion ships.
I'd hope by the 24th century, that if you needed a ship, you'd design it fully, then hit the print button... (with transporters and replicators, this should be possible. it doesn't make sense to 'build' it like a model kit)
In star trek bridge commander (which is not really canon even with Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner voicing their roles) they explain that the original sovereign was in mothball for five years following a shield problem when they launch it, because as a prototype they crammed everything they could inside and surprisingly, it failed. When they give it to you they transfer the entire crew of your last ship, that would give credential to the lack of personnel in starfleet, and the situation with the war could explain the lack of time to take care of an unstable ship when stable and proven design are easier to produce even if less powerful. The only reason the defiant is completed is because Sysko decided to finish it himself, I wonder how many non working ship design starfleet has stocked away like this.
Hey guys, two things.. 1) Sorry I sound sick in this.. Ugh, It's cause I am sick..right before a surgery..great times.. Second! I did forget one piece that is 'Beta Canon' but I think is interesting. The phasers and even torpedos/quantum torpedos were designed to automatically rotate frequencies during a fight - this was specific to the borg because it assisted in preventing them from adapting. Nothing in Canon that actually supports it - but very very interesting.
The video game "Star Trek: Birth of the Federation" includes a reference to this technology, named "Multifrequency Beams". The premise goes that, on the law of averages in a firefight, if a phaser rotates between frequencies, it may eventually find a frequency that matches the shield's frequency, causing shield penetration and potential hull damage.
Couple things: 1) Terrible timing for you to get sick. Hopefully everything goes according to plan. 2) Rotating frequencies is not a permanent solution against the Borg. Eventually, you'll run out of frequencies that will actually do damage, while the Borg will have adapted to everything else. Remodulation, rotation, multiphasic, all of these were stopgaps but not permanent solutions, as if the Borg ever got a proper chance, they would eventually adapt to them. Lastly, I'd like to note that it seems, from what I've heard on your videos, that you consider Alpha Canon to be either incomplete or broken, due to conflicting sources and/or an utter lack of sources. If we take Paramount/CBS' approach, where only what's on-screen is canon, then there are going to be enough holes in ST lore to drive a space truck through, so I would recommend supplementing with Beta Canon, because then you at least have something to work with.
Although it is not Alpha cannon the Bridge Commander user manual states "The prototype, U.S.S. Sovereign, NX-73811, was still in the design phase during the battle of Wolf 359, but began its actual testing at the time the lost Pegasus project was discovered on Stardate 47457.1." It goes on to state the U.S.S. Sovereign was the original prototype for regenerative shielding, but the tests failed, and the system was scraped until it was necessary for the Dominion War when it took a major rework to make it viable. Therefor the Enterprise-E had more conventional shields until its refit, but would have had got regenerative shielding by Nemesis. It is also mentioned that the Sovereign had some experimental Ablative Hull Armour, but it is not clear whether the Enterprise would have had it per-refit or not. It also has some interesting specs, although some of them may have been modified for game play balance. Sovereign-Class Starship As of 2373, this next generation heavy cruiser is the most advanced starship in Starfleet. Sovereign-class starships are nearly 700 meters in length and feature 24 decks. The U.S.S. Sovereign (NX-73811) was the prototype for the class. The U.S.S. Enterprise-E was the second Sovereign-class vessel, launched in 2372 under the command of Captain Jean-Luc Picard. Sovereign-class ships, assigned to the Maelstrom: • U.S.S. Sovereign, temporary Captain Robert Soto, assigned to the Vesuvi system for major refit. • U.S.S. Enterprise, Captain Jean-Luc Picard, assigned routine patrol of the Maelstrom. SPECIFICATIONS: Displacement: 3,205,000 metric tons Overall Length: 685 metres Overall Draft: 88 metres Overall Beam: 251 metres Propulsion: 2 LF-44 Advanced Linear Warp Drive Units 2 FIG-5 Subatomic Unified Energy Impulse Units Velocity: Warp 6.0 Standard Cruising Speed Warp 9.7 Maximum Cruising Speed Warp 9.99 Maximum Attainable Velocity Complement: 130 Officers, 725 Enlisted Crew, 0-3,045 Passengers (855 Total Standard Crew) Phasers: 8 Type XII Collimated Phaser Arrays Torpedoes: 6 MK 95 Direct-Fire Photon/Quantum/Plasma Torpedo Tubes (4 Forward & 2 Aft) Special: Regenerative Shield System, ablative hull armour, bio-neural gel packs, phase-plasma torpedoes. Shields: FSS-3 Primary Force Field and Deflector Control System Shield Ratings: 17 Fore, 11 Aft, 17 Dorsal, 17 Ventral, 11 Port, 11 Starboard
I like that - lot of details. Never got around to playing Bridge Commander... Other non-canon Sovereign-class ships in the 2370s, from the games and RPGs: USS Musashi (possibly) and USS Independence? USS Gibraltar NCC-75689; USS Hyperion NCC-76447, and USS Yorktown NCC-76902 (the last one I reversed the numbers slightly)
I wanted to install Klingon Academy, Starfleet Command 3 and maybe Legacy. Got partway through Elite Force 2 (nice looking around Ent-E) and was on SFC2 for a while. Not much hard-disk space left.
LOVE IT. Sovereign class is my favorite star ship design in all of scifi. I know a lot of people will disagree with me, which is fine. But, I cant help but love it. It's a wonderful mesh of classic Constitution class with a modern look. Also, for the lucky fan that wins that Eaglemoss figure, congrats! I have the Enterprise E and Defiant and I love them both.
I believe there are actually 49 Decks. 24 Crew Decks and 25 sub decks consisting of engine and crawlspaces. They first count the full decks top to bottom and then the sub decks top to bottom including the spaces in between the outer hull and the first and last decks. So the 29th Deck is actually located in between Decks 4 and 5. As Picard said the ship had 24 Decks he refereed to the actual living spaces and didn't count the sub decks which you only visit if you need to repair something.
I remember this ship in the game Star Trek Armada 2. The Sovereign class there had a special ability called carbonite shielding. It's very effective when taking on Borg Cubes and Tactical Cubes.
I think the variable-geometry warp nacelle thing came from one of the concept sketches of the ship that showed it with pylons not unlike Voyager's, that would rise or flatten as the ship switched between warp and impulse. Should be in the Eaglemoss magazine, actually. Of course they never actually ended up using that idea, but some things seem to stick in the minds of fans and supplementary material writers...
And that ecological thing only matters in that one region of space where warp drive does damage subspace TNG episode ...whatever. In regular regions standard warp nacelles are fine, otherwise all the previous starfarers would have destroyed FTL millennia ago.
+casbott Or maybe that particular region of space was just weak enough that the subspace rupture happened far sooner than other areas (having a warp core intentionally detonated to prove the theory certainly didn't help), but the other areas are getting close to their limits too. Don't forget the wormhole scene in _The Motion Picture,_ where the improper alignment of the newly-refitted warp engines tore a small hole in space. If that could happen there, who's to say that something more serious isn't just around the corner, so to speak?
You need to start looking at how Naval Fleets work. When ships go out of date they are replaced. NOW, that bearing in mind, in TNG you see Starfleet using ships that are nearly a CENTURY out of date. Clearly the Borg threat gave Starfleet a kick in their negligent backsides. Even if the Borg threat was no longer in the publics minds, Starfleet would have begun this huge ship building programme in order to ensure Starfleets abilities into the next century and this would only get a further boost after the battle of Sector 001 and then the Dominion threat.
I didn't say they had finished ... you cant replace an entire fleet over night ... between the first encounter with the Borg and the Dominion War Starfleet had designed new ships AND technology and already begun production. That is pretty good going. I bet by the time of Nemesis, they had 90% of the fleet made up of newer classes.
you can update and upgrade this tech numerous times, especially with many different standards in play. There is little to say that starships could not be modularly upgraded; the Klingons seem to use the same ships with new tech every few years. The Birds of Prey of Kirk's time would not even scratch a DS9 era ship but those in DS9's era could go toe to toe with Je'm Hadar and Breen ships. and yet are essentially the same ship with different upgrades
@@LoreReloaded well if you look at current USN vessels we make ships that can be constantly upgraded like the recently decommissioned CVN65 USS Enterprise if was in service for 55 years. It wouldn't make sense to make ships that could be heavily upgraded with new tech I suspect that classes like the Excelsior where built with that discipline. Now maybe century might be a stretch but it wouldn't make sense to build ships if your just going to render them obsolete in just 20 years.
@rickyssmith Yes, and no. Once technology plateaus old ships can stick around as long as their maintenance cost doesn't outstrip their rebuild cost. Ships in the age of sail often stuck around for around a century until all of them were obsoleted in a single battle between the Monitor and the Virginia. Modern navy ships have an expected lifespan of at least 50 years. The Gerald Ford class is being built with far more reactor power than she needs with the understanding that some of that power will be used by technologies yet to be devised and she is expected to remain in service through most if not the entirety of the current century. All of that could change in a single battle if a paradigm shift forces it. In the Starfleet Universe was the Battle of Wolf 359. Starfleet seems to have a "if it isn't broke don't fix it." mentality in Universe. Out of universe the reasons those ships stuck around is that building models for CGI in the 80's, 90's and early 00's was a pain in the ass. They had Miranda models from Star Trek II and Excelsior models from Star Trek III, why not use them. Hell, the real reason the Enterprise is blown up in Generations is so the Film crew would have an easier model to film.
I was always under the impression Starfleet IS the military of the Federation. Like all military, there are different branches. Some explore, some protect, some wage war.
Many years ago I bought a sovereign model (Enterprise-E from First Contact) pre-painted with internal lights (for the windows and naccelles), and although I also collect Gundam and other model (kits) it remains my favorite model. Especially at night with the light on against a starry backdrop it almost looks like it can go to warp at any moment.
Cheif O'Brian was definately a non comissioned officer. There was an episode where a Gem'Hadar explecitly mentioned that O'Brian was considered a noncom (non commisioned officer
Any enlisted in Starfleet above the rank of Crewman is a non-commissioned officer. +Anthony Dukes Nothing inconsistent about O'Brien's rank. He was a Habitual Enlister...the only inconsistency was finding him shipboard (positions nearly completely filled by Academy graduates...i.e. "officers") instead of on a ground installation or Starbase somewhere.
O'Brian is specifically a Chief Petty Officer, which is an enlisted rank. An enlisted crewman becomes a non-commissioned officer when he reaches an appropriate rank. Commissioned officers are the rank structure that starts at ensign. I would expect O'Brian to be more likely a Senior Cheif Petty Officer or a Master Chief Petty Officer considering his experience and responsibilities.
Andrew King If memory serves O'Brian served as Tactical Officer on the Rutledge, which is usually a commissioned slot. Could have been a field commission during the Cardassian War which was later rescinded.
Eh, on general design and capabilities, I really don't think Enterprise actually 'becomes a 'Mary Sue' ship unless limited to warp eight, ' which is considered slow for such a ship by many orders of magnitude, and...kind of doesn't square with the movies where it seems to get everywhere kinda *too* quickly. (As annoying as 'How many decimal places toward Warp 10 can you go' is, it covers a lot of handwaving plot-speeds: if anything, maybe the Galaxy class set the bar too high and the new warp scale unnecessarily Monty Hallish.) As 'eco-friendly' engine speedlimits go, it seems that 'variable geometry' really only had to mean "The warp nacelles pivot" as a stopgap for interim designs. (It may have had other advantages too, but they didn't stick with the technology. At all. ) And they still use the same old spaceframes and many more new ones without moving nacelles, so rather than assuming stupidity, clearly they found a way to fix this in existing ships once the subplot got boring *recordscratch* Starfleet engineers did what they usually do which is, fix things brilliantly , especially when warp speeds and travel time are basically arbitrary anyway *recordscratch* it would clearly be the number one priority tech to give *everybody* before spacetime rips a hole in itself and everyone's back thinking on sublight timescales at best. Anyway, it makes perfect sense that the Enterprise-E is at least as capable as the D, plus new tech, what it clearly did though, is give up a huge amount of mass and volume to the extent at least that if they ever let families back on, it won't be a whole town's worth of civilians or anything like that. (For fun, though, look around for the Oshimaru class renders someone made for something, that looks more like the next iteration for the Galaxy class type mission and I think looks cooler than the D. Which maybe they decided shouldn't be what class the flagship is, cause, that may have proven to be a bridge too far. Over and over. )
The Sovereign class and numerous other classes original design purpose was to fight the Borg, but ships take awhile to design and build. It makes perfect sense that they were taken off priority or even mothballed(like the defiant) after the Borg were seen as less of a threat, then revived when the federation needed warships to counter the dominion threat. In recent times it takes several years to design a ship, then build a prototype to test it out. I wouldn't be shocked if most of the anti-Borg ships were near completion or even had a prototype built, like the defiant had. They were designed to fight the Borg, but if it can fight the Borg they can most certainly fight a great deal of other foes.
Yea, i guess no one would want to watch Big E have a normal day lol. We had that in TNG, but TNG was a good series on many levels. Hey, also, do you think there might be sub-level decks like C-deck or something for maintenance? I know there are the Jeffreys Tubes but if there are sub levels it might help explain some added decks, though it should show up on any Technical diagram so there probably isn't.
You're right. Also The Enterprise D seemed to be outmatched more often than not. The amount of times that ship survived considering it was the weaker ship is amazing. P.S. then it got taken out by an old rusty Klingon scout ship *FACEPALM*
To be fair, that old scout ship did have some inside information on how to bypass the defenses of the ship, and was also taken out during said battle because of its own seemingly insignificant but actually critical flaw. Besides, who's to say that the Duras Sisters hadn't upgraded the weapons and shields of their ship over the years?
per the original technical manual even the ncc-1701 (no bloody a, b c or d) had saucer separation capability, the system used explosive bolts and once activated there was no chance for re-attachment. the saucer separation system was intended as a "lifeboat" or "whole crew escape/landing pod"
With regards to the "Anti-Borg Fleet" debate, I must respectfully disagree with your assessment. While the actual construction and activation of these ships, much like that of the Defiant, was prompted by the thread of the Dominion, the origins of many of Starfleet's more combat oriented vessels can still be traced back to the disastrous Battle of Wolf 359. With the new, devastating Borg threat, Starfleet embarked on a program to design and build new warships, as illustrated by the Defiant class. As the Borg threat diminished, support for building these vessels would've waned until the Dominion arrived as a threat. With the new, powerful threat, ships that were either languishing as partly built hulks in shipyards or existing solely as a blueprint, were dusted off to counter the new threat. (A shame that contractual issues prevented more ships from First Contact appearing in DS9, instead we got those kitbash ships and redshirt Mirandas...)
The Sabre, Akira, Steamrunner, and of course Defiant classes all showed up quite a bit in DS9. The norway didnt because they didnt like the design(neither do I) and the sovereing was saved for the big screen, to keep the E special. Still I'd have liked to see a sovereign a couple times in the war. At least Galaxys were kicking ass left and right
I would like to point out that you are not talking about a "Anti-Borg Fleet" since those ships where never really designed to just only fight the Borg. You are pointing out that since Wolf 359 and the fact that the Borg really became a big threat to the Federation, Starfleet completely reworked its active mandate, the full scale militarization of the Federation if i'm correct, not to deviate from their pacifistic way of looking at the universe, but more to conduct their original mandate without the real fear of being defeated by the Borg so easily. I think that this was simply step 2 in the UFP becoming more militarized, where Admiral Marcus long ago started the phase 1 in the eyes of the Klingon threat. So again, not disagreeing with your words, but there is a deeper meaning to this then just a simple Anti-Borg Fleet
I really don't think that just cause they discontinued the troubled (and maybe too solely-aggressive while being self-destructey and, err, they didn't know one would get a cloak,) Defiant design that they had all of Starship Design Bureau actually sitting on their hands and designing lounges and gelato machines. They had Sovereigns and all the rest to be developing and building. "Small ships? Make a whole bunch of Saber-class as good as we can and actually have them work,' then put the bigger guns and engines on new designs that also are likely to kick ass. " Earth military history says that sure, a Tiger tank is a world beater, but you'd really rather have a couple hundred T-34s or even Shermans instead of a few of those, maybe later.... Sovvie development was probably a long process starting maybe even before Borg threats changed priorities, and involving a lot of back and forth between testbeds and ship classes, the Sovvie ending up with all the latest tech as of when they finally made a flagshippey package of it.
OllamhDrab good points. I think the defiant was mostly put on the backburner as opposed to development stopping. After the dominion made their first appearance Sisko took off for a few months and came back with the ship. It was obviously already almost done. He just went to help work out the issues with the ship and get it flying. Also your description of sovvie development reminds me of the f22
It could easily be the ships were designed and then halted. Due to political pressure form the peace party or whatever. Then when the Dominion showed up that have the militant party. Enough political juice with he public to push the designs into production. The UFP is a democracy so public opinion has to be accounted for. The public isn't always or even often logical now. I see no reason that wouldn't be true in the 24th century.
About the warp speed of the Sovereign class, I don't know if this is in your sources or not, but I did not hear you mention it. Usually there is a difference between cruising speed and maximum speed. Perhaps this is where the difference between warp 8, warp 9.7 and warp 9.985/9.995 comes from. That's why it usually is not ordered specifically to go to warp 9.995 (or another speed), but rather "maximum warp", like in First Contact ("Lieutenant Hawk, set a course for Earth. Maximum warp."). However, when a cruising speed, or not a high speed is required, they do order a warp number, like "Set a course to ..., warp 8.". Which would be the most energy efficient speed (and maintainable for much longer), or maybe even cruising speed. Because maximum warp is only possible to hold for a relative short time. So I think max efficiency or maybe cruising speed is at warp 8, maximum warp is either 9.7, 9.985 or 9.995. Or 9.7 may be even it's cruising speed, however I think that's unlikely. But that's what I think, without seeking out sources.
It having a maximum warp of 8 is ridiculous. It's been stated by the designer and people that worked on the show it was designed to fight the Borg. Why on Earth would Starfleet design a ship to fight the Borg but make it so slow? Wouldn't getting to the Borg be a high priority? Also, making it slower by the older Galaxy Glass wouldn't make any sense. LaForge states in First Contact it's the most advanced ship in the fleet and that usually would also mean Warpcore. It being slower than much older Federation ships makes no sense, hell it would be slower than a Defiant as well. Having your most powerful ship slower than other older Federation vessels is silly because if they're all going to a battle, having your most powerful ship slower and arriving later is laughable.
Advanced doesn't always mean fast. The sovereign had massive power demands that would represent a drain on the warp core. That said, the slimmed down profile would also mean it could maintain a smaller warp bubble, so their are arguments to be made either way
Sovereign is definitely going to be fast. A slower ship will always be at the mercy of a faster one. Also from a cinematic design point of view, does it look like the Sovereign should be slow? No? Then it isn't.
Yeah... I found the mere thought of the Sovereign, a ship that was designed to be the Porsche of Fed's flagships, a ship that is faster and far more nimble than its size implies, to have a maximum warp that is slower than the Galaxy to be stoo much, especially at warp 8. I also find it silly that the reason it'd be slower so that it doesn't come off as a Mary Sue ship, and yet from a narrative and in-universe standpoint, it makes little to no sense to have the latest flagship with all the major and proven advances at that time to have such a blatant weakness, especially compared to its predecessor, a ship that is implied to be slower yet can go above warp 9. I don't even consider the Sovereign to be 'overpowered', let alone a Mary Sue or a fanfic type ship; rather I consider it to be appropriate for a ship that was supposed to be the Fed's pride and joy, especially one bearing the name Enterprise.
I really wish we could have seen the sovereign go toe to toe with a Dominion battleship. It's, in my opinion, one of the best looking ships in the fleet, and after it's refit is probably one of the most powerful.
According to the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual, when the Enterprise-D was initially launched from Utopia Planitia, a full 35% of the customizable space was left empty, to be later filled with individual modules as seen fit. Maybe this is also true of the Sovereign Class. The lower sections of the ship may have been empty until decks were added later. I can't say why the number changed in the middle of the movie.
If they built many, the enemies might stole one of the ships and reverse engineers to fight against the federation, so they built a few sovereign-class
When First Contact came out, the reported max speed was Warp 9.985, faster than previous classes, but not insanely so. Variable warp geometry was achieved not by tilting the entire nacelles, but by manipulating individual warp coils along the internal length of the warp nacelles. I wish I had a source to throw at you, but all I have are the clear as day memories of an 11-year old boy who fell in love with the Enterprise-E and never forgot a damn thing about her.
What I find amazing is that they have not figured out that the fans want to know all the specs and that having such specs ahead of time would help when writing scripts.
CAPS MAKES ME RIGHT. We have no evidence of what the ships are or were and given the fleet would take only a year it's unlikely it was the more advanced ships.
I do have a physical print reference for some of the statistics in a copy of The Star Trek Encyclopedia "expanded edition" from 1997. In this guide the ship was 700meters long and 24 decks thick. The book was published by Pocket Books under and exclusive Licence from Paramount. The authors Michael Okuda, Denise Okuda and Doug Drexler.
Lore Reloaded I understand... I still havent brought myself to watch STD as I remeber leading up to its release that it was suppose to be prime time line cannon and what I thought I knew was no longer cannon. I know I will get over it. I got over it with enterprise and ended up enjoying that series.
Books aren't considered canon...except the Encyclopedia, since all sources in the 1997 edition do, in fact, come from canon and cite directly to the episodes and/or movies that provide said information. The STE is actually about as "canon" as canon can get, since they did not reference novels or games. They were, in fact, Memory Alpha before the internet.
This will always be my favorite starship class. Its sleek and powerfull. I saw it first in Nemesis (Not my most favorite Trek) and it was really the first and sadly last time we saw its true power in combat. In love with it ever since
Nope. Don't agree. You say only about 6 years traversed between both attacks and think that that is enough time to forget the entire plannet almost getting assimilated. Not buying it. It would take almost that long to research design and construct these ships. Totally all of that new group of ships is designed with the intent of fighting off the borg. Any ship that could hold it's ground against the borg could hold it's ground against the dominion. The defiant was brought out of mothballs not because the heat of borg fear had died down and led the project to be canx but because it was one of the early anti borg prototypes and as such didn't work as well as hoped and was abandoned in favor of other designs. It was built as a real world tech development prototype. The dominion cold war caused it to be dragged out for use but other classes of ships were being built and designed already based on the theoretical work done on defiant. Based on defiants success around ds9 the class was continued. Had the borg not prompted the construction of more powerful warships they would not have been at all ready for the dominion. The completion of these ships during and very shortly after the dominion war shows they were in fact built in response primarily to the borg as utopia planetia can't crap out new advanced ships at the drop of a hat. I think somewhere in tng it says it took 5 years to build enterprise d. So the delay of abt 6 years makes sense for a borg response fleet. The dominion war just reaffirmed the already obvious need for more badassery than the old ships could put out but still why prepare to fight a b list enemy when you know you are gonna have to fight an a list enemy. Some specifics things would have been added based on the dominion but gen preping to fight borg preps you to fight anybody.
I liked this video but only allowing usa patrons is for the giveaway is a horrible idea. Not only does it cost practically the same to ship to Canada but if you can't afford to hold a giveaway for everyone, you shouldn't hold it at all. If i were considering becoming a patron, this would be a deal breaker.
At no point did I say it was USA only, I said I would talk with you and see what I could do. Canada is more, I've actually looked it up. And I'm fine if you decide not to be patreon. You are, howewver, welcome to pay my shipping costs.
Lore Reloaded "just so you kow ill be sending out one to a patron in the US" "after march 2nd one random paron will be chosen from the US" "As stated US citizens only"
Gotcha.. well I apology for snarkiness. What I generally say is 'US guaranteed..I will see what I can do with non us residents until I can afford all over the world '. I'll pin a comment with a clarification
shipping from anywhere from the US to Canada cost anywhere between 50% to 75% more than shipping flat rate all over the US not to mention the taxes involved as well as the likelyhood of things go missing because tracking becomes a nightmare once Canadian post takes over
I don't remember where I read this, but I think the Sovereign has a lower top speed than the Galaxy Class. That would make sense. The Galaxy Class was in development for many years, while the Sovereign Class was more of a rush job to replenish the fleet with more tactically capable ships after Wolf 359. It would be faster than Warp 8, though. Pretty much every Starfleet vessel of the era was at least Warp 9 capable, with the probable exception of the Oberth.
If you think about it, the Sovereign is a dreadnought. An apex predator. The fact that it stood against Shinron's ship, when the Romulan heavy cruisers were knocked out fairly quickly shows this is a very strong ship.
A library would make sense as a secondary social gathering location after the bar. It could even have paper books as opposed to the datapads. It would serve more of an R&R function for the crew than a tactical function.
Hello guys! I hope you’re having a good day out there. If not, I hope this adds a brief spark of light to a dreary day.😊
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Never really cared for the Sovereign-class. I much prefer the Defiant and the Akira-class, and even the Sabre-class.
I always saw the Sovereign as a Flagship above all in a literal sense. A ship capable of projecting power with both it's luxury for diplomacy or it's military might. The mere sight of a Sovereign would create awe in allies or fear in enemies, especially if it was as overpowered as some sources say.
Which would explain its use for sure
Kind of funny how someone like Picard would knowingly participate in what could be interpreted as Gun Boat Diplomacy.
Picard is no fool. In times of war, you need gun boat diplomacy. If the Federation fractured out of fear from the Dominion, it would be a game over scenario for the alpha and beta quadrants.
And I absolutely buy into the idea of the Sovvies being super powered. Best engines, best guns, best sensors, with only a handful ever built. They serve the same purpose as the original Enterprise in TOS. Either exploring the frontier, or doing diplomatic work in high tension regions of space. This ensures they are self sufficient and capable of tackling any tasks they encounter. Especially during a time of war when the bulk of the fleet is too busy to lend a helping hand.
Timothy Ashe I would think it would be quite easy for him to justify: if you can head off conflict by showing a strong presence, it's better for everyone. There are opponents whom need a bit of a threat to even listen to reason (Klingons come to mind), and if you can make those threats stop and listen to your words for a minute, the extra bit of militarism is well worth it. Better to serve as a deterrent than invite war with weakness- that benefits no one. And in a time where the Federation has had some very real threats from the Romulan Empire,. a renewed Klingon war, the Cardassian Border wars and Dominion War et cetera, it is beyond naive and foolish to project anything but firm strength. Picard is of course often depicted as an idealist, but it is a pragmatic idealism of a sort. Compare him to Spock for example- Spock was logical, and did not let his emotions inform his every decision. But even he when advising Kirk during "Balance of Terror" advised attacking first as "weakness is something we dare not show." Which also as an aside is something that makes me laugh when Trekkies cite the aggressive Vulcans in either Enterprise or Discovery as out of character- Vulcans may have had reasonably firm morality/ethics, but when it was logical, they were also perfectly willing to be brutal if necessary. If killing 10 or 100 could potentially save millions, they were not so squeamish as to fail to bow to the pure logic of the situation.
Everything I've ever seen implies that the Sovereign class is the flagship, symbol of Federation power and intent. Primarily serving as a command ship instead of a front line warship. The Defiant and Akira classes are the ones that serve as the enforcer units within Federation space and the front line.In the Voyager series; they say that the Voyager is equipped with experimental bio-circuitry. It would make sense that you wouldn't put a bunch of experimental tech into your Flagship....but you would put the best of all your tested and proven tech into it. Even then you would avoid placing your greatest symbol on the front lines in any major conflict because no matter how good or OP it's built, it's the juiciest target for the enemy fleet to cripple your morale and war effort.The Federation would have the enemy doing what they do to the Borg: "Open a channel to the fleet; all ships lock weapons on that target!"
Remember that the Enterprise E didn't destroy the Borg cube on its own in First Contact. It was Picard's experience to know where to shoot it - Data says 'these don't look like vital systems' and Picard told the rest of the ships left where to concentrate firepower.
No matter how good they make the ships out to be, it always came down to the crew coming up with a solution.
I think both Spacedock and you are right on the ships. The Defiant, Akira, Steamrunner and Sovereign were all designed to fight the Borg. The battle against the Borg was by the far Starfleet's most devastating loss up to that point, and a single ship punched through to Earth like it was nothing. It showed them just how vulnerable they could be, so it makes sense that they would build something to help defend themselves. While it wasn't until First Contact that another Borg cube came directly Earth's way, the Borg were still on the fringes enough to remain a concern (and would a few years really be enough for Starfleet to go "Eh, they're probably not a threat anymore"?).
But that doesn't mean that Starfleet would have only built those ships expressly for combat against the Borg. The Defiant was build years prior to the discovery of the Dominion, so it can't have been built in response. Akira, Steamrunner and Sovereign were all introduced around the start of the Federation-Dominion cold war. So either they have an incredibly short design, construction and trials cycle, or they must have been in development beforehand. The Defiant failed its initial trials, causing it to be mothballed in favour of other designs, using what they learned while building the Defiant to improve those designs, and while it was pulled back out in response to the Dominion, no reason to think that if Starfleet had detected increased Borg activity, that they wouldn't have done the same.
Also, if you take Picard's speech/rant to Lily on First Contact at face value, there were Borg incursions that didn't involve the Enterprise or DS9 and so never got shown on tv...
Well thought out teaching me
10:45 correction: the show calls all people officers except Chief O'brien, he the only NCO in starfleet..
The transporter technicians seemed to be called chief. There was a woman in tng that operated the transporter that they identified as chief.
there's also Ensign crusher ;) also my guess is they only refer to the people from Starfleet Academy required to run two or three shifts and honestly if you're having a ship of that size, having 250 specialists on a shift doesn't really sound that odd, O'Brien didn't go through SA, he came up through the ranks as one of the Menials, whom in turn need an NCO to be steered, whom in turn is steered by one of the Officers, O'Brien had the good fortune to make a stellar career as an Engineer to be noted, one of the reasons he got picked for DS-9 as he did prove himself capable and knowledgeable
@@joshuagiehll3737
Yeah, O'Brien was called Chief on the Enterprise, but he was also a Lieutenant at the time. He wasnt made an actual NCO until he was reassigned to DS9. And even then he wasnt given a proper Senior Chief Petty Officer rank pin until they got the new uniforms.
@@Voron_Aggrav Ensigns are officers they're the equivalent of a 2nd lieutenant.
Just like maps are either Northern Hemisphere bias or American Continent bias, Star Trek is Officer bias.
Pretty sure there were 3-5 Enlisted persons per Officer but they never made the show as it would not be "as fun", who wants to follow the enlisted reg' whose whole job is to maintain the waste collector and recycling
I thought the Sovereign Enterprise E was sort of a return to greatness for the Enterprise lineage. The D had been considered the fastest and most powerful ship in the fleet during TNG, but after TNG ended the Defiant and Voyager sorta surpassed her in those categories. I thought the E was a magnificent cinematic ship.
Warp 8 would be the cruising speed of the vessel, which means fastest speed at safest conditions, while warp 9.98, is the fast speed, under the most critical conditions. Similarly the TOS Enterprise had a crusing speed of Warp 6 & a critical speed, used in only the most extreme conditions was warp 8.
what about the nomad modification that boosted the enterprise to warp 14.1
Gotta also consider the adjusted warp speeds that came after TOS too. What was Warp 14 for the TOS Enterprise was likely half that by the time of TNG.
You forget also in TNG the Big D had a cruising speed of warp 6 while able to go 9.6, and did so (especially warp 9) on many occasions. In reality, high speed all the time would simply damage your engines in the long run (as they did in TNG).
The way I see it, it's mainly a feature of the flagship of the time. Starfleet wants its best ship and crew to be at the frontlines as fast as possible. She can cruise along at 8, but when its needed, she'll exceed that greatly.
There are three main speeds if I recall. You've got your cruising speed as you said, then you have two more. Maximum Sustainable Warp, and Maximum Warp.
- Cruising speed is your most efficient speed. Most bang for your buck fuel goes the longest, engine parts aren't stressed, etc.
- Maximum Sustainable Warp is the fastest you can go if you don't mind your ship being a gas guzzler, but you can sustain that speed pretty much indefinitely until you run out of fuel.
- Maximum Warp is redlining the engines. You can only do that for a few hours or half a day or whatnot. The limitation would be that you start risking things breaking much, much faster, forcing you to drop out of warp and shut the engines down for the repairs.
A lot of people, who aren't engineering geeks, just hear someone say 'it can go X speed' and don't know there even are CW, MSW, and MW numbers. But for all intents and purposes, if the Enterprise has to get somewhere YESTERDAY and shoot things like the Borg, they'll be pulling that MW number out and come screaming in at Warp 9.98, or however many decimal places of nines they tack on.
But at the end of the day, all ships named Enterprise have the advanced Dramatic Warp Engine installed. The Dramatic Warp Engine allows the ship to travel at the Speed of Plot. It will always go just fast enough to arrive at the right moment.
This class of ship was a dreadnought battleship, it was meant to fight anything and everything. The Enterprise being commanded by the most trusted crew in the fleet and operating near Earth would most likely be equipped with Starfleet's most advanced weapons and defensive technologies. As the wars progressed they would inevitably bring all possible technologies into service but the best would be limited to ships that were unlikely to be captured or defeated so that technology would no fall into enemy hands.
"The Enterprise is simply too powerful." Sounds about right. And since the Sovereign Class is my favorite Starfleet design, and presumably the most advanced ship class in the fleet (bar perhaps the Prometheus), I don't see a problem with that!
It's arguable if the prometheus is stronger than the sovereign.. I'd like to see them duke it out.
Yeah, me too. It seems many Trek ship fans have an opinion on that outcome. My in universe projection is that the endurance of the Sovereign in both power generation and durability as well as torpedo firepower would put her over the Prometheus in combat. And if that Sovereign happens to be the Enterprise, well... from an outside universe perspective, the definitive Trek Hero Ship is not going down even to a technological marvel like the Prometheus.
My compliments on your channel! I can't wait to watch you break down the the DS9 battles.
Of course not, they are built to fill the shoes (huge ones!) left by the Galaxy-Class, the previous flagship class and of course the Federation wants to extend its capabilities, so those ships will most certainly not be slower, less well armed, less efficient etc. (sorry, Lore, but that just would not make a lick of sense!) - the opposite is likely true (meaning: More and better weapons, better and faster drives, faster recharging (regenerative most likely) and stronger shields, better accomodations for the crew (without families! Seriously that was the dumbest thing in TNG!) etc.)!
@@LoreReloaded Depends in which sovereign if it's the E. The Prometheus would get smoked plot shields being a thing.
It's kind of amazing if you think about it that the Federation would be so quick to dismiss the idea of particular threats no longer being a problem with no actual resolution to the issue. When you are dealing with galaxy-wide forces and actions that may take place over centuries or millennia deciding that because you haven't seen a particular species in a few years that they are no longer a threat is downright insane.
Don't get me wrong 'cause I _love_ Star Trek, but with all the major setting faults the series (and nearly all sci-fi) has... That'd be a minor issue...
It's the logical outgrowth of what I like to call the "Roddenberry Kumbaya" Philosophy.
"They haven't attacked us, and they aren't overtly threatening us, ergo they obviously want Peace. Nothing to see here...move along."
That's always been my major sticking point with Star Trek (even though I adore it); The Federation flitting around the cosmos thinking happy thoughts and breathing unicorn farts pretending all you need is love while the rest of the universe keeps turning and tries to kill everything in sight...as the Universe is wont to do.
I have no problems with positive thinking and trying to build the world you want to live in, but the cognitive dissonance of the Federation about how dangerous the Universe really is can be nothing short of dumbfounding.
Andrew King. Or its just an artifact of episodic story telling, its hard to focus in this weeks big bad if last weeks is still steamrolling your people in the background. Its also best not to dispose of a good badguy to quickly, might need filler down the road!
I always though that, while the federation is peaceful, it seemed to have some of the most powerful and technologically advanced ships. Making even their "not made for war" ships at least as powerful as their "made for war" counterparts from other species.
Examples include : the Constitution class, capable of taking on two Klingon ships of its size.
the Galaxy class, capable of taking on two Klingon or Romulan ships of its size. And many more smaller.
I kind of view it as : others make for quantity, the federation makes for quality. Every ship is twice its counterpart but it costs 3 times more to make.
Also when they started making warships they were more powerful then other's.
well these are the same guys why have no MILITARY, even though the federation is literally surrounded by hostile or unpredictable (eg klingons) powers. that's without the dominion or the borg.
Would it not be logical to conclude that the Sovereign, Akira, Steamrunner, Intrepid, Norway, and Promethius class ships were developed to face both the Borg and Dominion? With more and more enemies pressing against the Federation, Starfleet needed to militarize.
That seems reasonable
Kyle Towe Akira and soverign and maybe saber yes
Norway steameunner and intrepid were in the works to replace ambassador and nebula class roles with smaller more purpose built ships
Also, don’t forget that modern large ships and planes typically take a decade or more to go from concept to finished product. The Boeing 787 started as an idea for a near-supersonic plane in the late 90’s before becoming the model we know today about 10-15 years later. Things can change over time.
Just development time you might expect for a new flagship-class ship and some of the other designs/technologies could be expected to run over even if they had started immediately on the Defiant and kept going even after deciding *that* design wasn't where they wanted to go with the Fleet, or that they just didn't have the knowhow yet to make it work.
(Chances are there were dozens of issues Utopia Planitia didn't want to spend the resources solving over an 'escort' vessel that ended up solved anyway while Defiant was sitting in mothballs. O'Brien's good, but not that much better than the Advanced Design Bureau (and the Sisko) put together. He just had like six years' later knowledge to start from. So you can bet they were working on a *lot* of things, maybe too many of these ship classes at once, starting with 'Oh, crap, there's Borg out there.' If you don't assume stupidity. :) "Let's see, should we get these Akiras and Steamrunners into lots of production, or gamble on pushing the envelope to maybe make this pimphand ship go to specs?" What's the sane choice? )
No see...there are only 24 decks, but they skip certain numbers like 13 and a number of other numbers considered unlucky by various federation member planets. The highest deck number will, no doubt, keep increasing as the federation adds new members like Bajor.
(YES, OF COURSE I'M JOKING)
weird, that does make sense lol.
You're joking, but that's a pretty good way to resolve the continuity error
like how some buildings skip floor 13?
This is great, I'm adding it to my head canon!
Crazy thing is that just because of Earth we could jump both number 13 and 4 (death number in Japan), so we already have two mumber jumps right there.
I could see them still aiming for The Borg while designing them. One cube nearly took Earth alone. Aim to kill Borg, and you basically wreck everything else you may have to fight by proxy.
Started for the Borg, finished for the Dominion its in canon!
Where? Shelby isn't really that clear.
@@LoreReloaded given how real militaries design ships and how many years it can take to get a design approved it's more then realistic that Starfleet came up with many ships designed to fight the Borg originally and when the threat died down the good designs were just modified to fight the dominion.
Wasn't ever ship designed, the defiant and ever ship after meant to fight the Borg?
that would make sense, we see Starfleet initially taking the Borg seriously, having an entire department dedicated to doing shit to try and defeat them
it's definately plausible that the Defiant, Akira, Saber, Sovereign etc
were initially designed as anti-Borg vessels, then as LR stated, the threat died down, the Defiant prototype was moth balled (the Saber and Akira may well have been possible alternate Defiants)
Dominion Cold War starts
Starfleet quietly pull out their old AB blueprints
war goes hot
Oh fuck we don't have any warships, we have science ships and glorified cruise ships oh fuck
start cranking out Akira and Saber classes and bring the Defiant into service
Sovereign become the new enterprise but basiclally went throught the same process of
we need ships to fight the Borg
meh they're gone
oh shit oh fuck
*grabs random blueprint from the bottom of classified design files*
Reasearch and Development never stops, got to keep those bright and talented minds busy, besides it's relatively cheap. In contrast setting up mass production and building ships and weapons is expensive and takes somewhat more incentive to make happen.
... The stupid thing was built to fight the borg. Of course it's stupidly overpowered. Granted, it's supposedly even more expensive than the galaxies. It's basically the Iowa of starships. And yes, it does make sense for starfleet to have an anti-borg fleet. The anti-borg ships are too expensive to be making the backbone of their fleet, but it does make sense to have a tactical core upon which to base the next generation of vessels upon.
Agreed.
It's not "too powerful", lol.
Maxim 37 Amended: There is no 'overkill.' There is only open-fire and reload.
the Federation don't used money, everything can be replicated
@@DarthMalgusSith_Lord Not strictly true. Even without money, Replication requires a Base input. it does not just magic something out of nothing. Also there are a LOT of materials tat are not able to be replicated. Tritanium for instance, as well as Dilithium.
With reference to the missions the USS Enterprise-E is sent on (we know they weren't on the front lines by the dialogue from Star Trek: Voyager), the Sovereign Class becomes a statement of intent wherever it's sent, a message that says, "We're here, we know you know that we're here, and we have a bite to match our bark", in similar vein to what the Negh'var Class represented for the Klingon Empire.
About it being anti-Borg, I can definitely see the argument that it wasn't exclusively created to battle the Borg; however, Wolf 359 created a paradigm shift within Starfleet, and the Sovereign is the natural evolution of that shift.
The reason why you see technologies like Type XII Phaser Arrays and Regenerative Shields mentioned is that they were actually available if you selected the Sovereign Class when playing Star Trek: Starship Creator Deluxe, the latter obviously influenced by the USS Prometheus in "Message in a Bottle". The Type XII Phaser Arrays were again referenced in Star Trek: Starfleet Command III.
The Sovereign Class is obviously an evolution of the Galaxy Class, which is why creature comforts like a Gymnasium are mentioned, and is probably why you hear Saucer Separation mentioned so frequently. Personally, I think Saucer Separation is a gimmick, and the number of times it is practical is far outnumbered by the situations it isn't. The argument against is also augmented by not having an impulse engine on the secondary hull, which is a key feature that made both hulls of the Galaxy Class maneuverable relative to each other..
The "Warp Travel Beyond Warp 5 Hurts the Fabric of Space" was also a poor attempt to create an ongoing narrative, and much like "Balance of Terror" where James Kirk only then learns of the existence of the Romulan Star Empire, I believe the writers for Star Trek, collectively, have decided to pretend that it never happened.
The Captain's Yacht is an odd one; we know from the TNG Technical Manual that it's a thing, but Insurrection made it look like a run-of-the-mill shuttle, just docked to the ventral side of hull, much like the never-seen "Aeroshuttle" that's theorised to be docked to the underside of the Intrepid Class's ventral primary hull. If it were specifically outfitted to have non-standard functionality, I'd agree it would be useful, but this ends up sharing the genre of "gimmick" to me.
Overall, I like the ship's design; it's sleek, functional, and visually appealing, and definitely represents a step up from those that came before it.
The treaty was conducted over Subspace Radio without visual contact. United Earth never knew who their opponents were. This took place before the Federation's founding.
People know their Beta Canon around here :-P
I think the Captain' Yacht does make sense. You state yourself that the Sovereign class has a lot of representative functions, sent out to show presence, or to go on diplomatic missions where a bit of a display of "how awesome we are" is necessary. Having a shuttle dedicated for diplomatic uses does make sense then. it's good first impression if you come with a shuttle that has a n specially sleek design (probably also interior) and is not the same shuttle used for cargo hauling.
"Saucer Separation" isn't a gimmick, the Galaxy Class ability to re-attach a separated saucer was the gimmick, and now everyone seems to think that specific ability means "saucer separation" when it doesn't.
I've gathered from countless sources over the years that a great many Starfleet designs were capable of saucer separation...once. This would make engineering (though not tactical) sense since a separated saucer could, in theory, have a new drive section constructed onto it at shipyards and returned to service, and in the event of a catastrophic failure or core breach, awaiting rescue in a functional saucer section would be far preferable to hanging out in lifepods and waiting for the nearest Starfleet vessel to respond and affect a rescue. Completed hull sections between Saucer and Drive sections would require relatively minimal addition construction, as would a forcible-separation system to sever any and all connections. In the end, it would be a very economical and logical decision.
I recall numerous references to saucer separation (though i don't remember exactly where) throughout Star Trek history...even Kirk discussing it at one point with Scotty (who informed him that "if we seperate, I canna put her back together.")
Perhaps it's a misnomer to say "saucer separation" and saying that "the drive section could be jettisoned" would be more accurate, but regardless of what you call it, it wouldn't make sense for it to NOT be possible in vessels with a defined and non-integrated saucer section.
I shall state the reasons I think it's a gimmick.
First off, the only real situation this would ever be necessary is if the ship's Matter/Antimatter Reaction Chamber were unable to be contained. That said, it's important to mention that there are actually two kinds of Warp Core Breaches; the first is the most obvious, a loss of antimatter containment that results in a chain reaction, causing the almost complete destruction of the ship.
The second is a Thermal Breach; this is where the Reaction Chamber cannot be cooled by the plasma coolant assembly. This would cause a detonation of similar intensity to the above, but it would have a delay before the thermal limits of the reaction chamber itself were breached.
The explosion seen in Star Trek: Generations was the latter, and the coolant's failure meant that a) The evacuation of the Star Drive section's crew complement could be evacuated to the Saucer section and b) The Saucer section was able to complete a separation manoeuvre. If the Bird of Prey had actually managed to damage a more critical component of the Warp Propulsion system, the Saucer separation would have been moot.
When looking at dangerous situations, it's a very expensive tradeoff to decide to effectively get rid of the Matter/Antimatter Reaction Assembly. In the vast majority of cases, the resources of the Star Drive section are invaluable to the success of mission at hand.
Dragging the conversation back to the Sovereign class, I'm again not seeing an Impulse Engine on the Secondary Hull; this would be a monumental disadvantage in the event of any separation event.
Now, you made reference to an entirely different mechanic, and that's an Emergency Jettison event. I do believe this to be something employed on most Starship classes (but not all), if only for safety purposes. As found in the TNG Technical Manual, the nacelles of the Galaxy Glass were designed to be explosively jettisoned in the event of a problem, although this was never shown on screen.
According to both Memory Alpha AND all available technical drawings I can find, both primary Impulse Engines are on the aft Saucer section (see 0:10 of the video, top-down profile, the two red sections aft.)
Even the Constitution class had its Impulse Assemblies on the saucer, not the drive section.
The Captain's Yacht was seen in Insurrection. The Sovereign class was designed without Saucer Separation in mind, it was then added as a "proof of concept" by John Eaves, but never confirmed as an actual thing, just a "what if".
I heard it was in the original designs but never shows on screen, or modeled, but still part 9f the design spec.
Actually, the E-E was fully designed when Eaves created a "possible" separation. I'm pretty sure Trekyards did an interview with Eaves about the E-E and he stated this.
saw the original drawings and she can saucer sep. just never shown.
Yep - I stand corrected, here's Eaves talking about it: th-cam.com/video/InlaOWVfSq8/w-d-xo.html
I know there was postulation way back when, that the original USS Enterprise was capable of saucer separation as a lifeboat function, in case the warp core went critical - it's why the impulse drive was mounted at the back of the saucer. Such function was included in many Federation ships through the years, with the Enterprise-D having tactical application for having combat separation. I would see no reason why the Sovereign class might not include "lifeboat" separation.
The "Deck 26" line from First Contact, and "Deck 29" line from Nemesis should never have been allowed to see the light of day.
Honestly, given everything they have to do and putting it together, I can see gaffes like that. I've done worse..but yea, a lot of people get paid a lot of money.. I would hope they'd be ontop of it.
Twotailed Fox. Seriously, trek inconsistencies are an ingrained part of the franchise I don't see the point in getting hung up over the newer ones.
Sloppy writing.
And miss all the free propaganda that the hard core fans make by trying to fix it? Naaaahhhhh
not as bad as what happened in the fifth tos movie deck 24? deck 49?
seems sovereign was supposed to be an 'everything' ship, they just took the best of whatever they had to make the greatest ship. it's the opposite of the stripped-down defiant, which was designed to be cheap, minimal crewed, small and agile, but outside battle don't have the science facilities to solve problems. one is minimalist, the other maximalist.
it's the ship u sent to impress, or to cow into submission...
Sovereign is like Nimitz class carrier. 600m Federation soil armed to teeth.
I think they call that a dreadnought. It's a ship bristling with guns, but also fast, but also heavily armored..... In this case also comfortable. Definitely the ship to send to drive home your point, as you said..... The Defiant is more like a short-range, rapid-response attack or escort vessel. It's a little slow at top speed, no creature comforts, but man you don't want to be on the receiving end when she points her guns at you.
The difference between the Borg threat and the Dominion threat is that you could see the Dominion coming. The Borg could plunk down a transwarp conduit right into your softest spot and launch a full-throated invasion from the place you're least able to defend. Since you always knew when you sent a ship out to face the Dominion that you were doing so, you could purpose-build specialized ships for that. With the Borg, you'd always be scrambling to use any ship in the area, which means being forced to anti-Borgify your whole fleet in general even if they weren't expected to fight Borg.
Federation/Gallifreyan alliance. That was classic.
Pretty much ties with the _Akira_ as my favorite Star Trek design. Love it to bits.
+Jimmy Seaver Its a fun ship
This is an absolutely beautiful ship
It's my all time favorite
Jean-Luc Picards pimphand.
It's not as iconic as some other iterations of the Enterprise, but it's the best looking to my eye.
Agreed.👍
Second most beautiful after the A imo. The A is an absolute beauty.
My standing theory about every event after Star Trek Generations is that Picard never really left the Nexus. It is interesting to look at the rest of the TNG movies and think of them as an aging man's Nexus dreams. It certainly explains the Sovereign's Mary Sue-ness.
One flaw with that is the implication that picard's personal paradise includes Data getting killed.
Saucer separation on a warship makes some sense too. If part of it is so damaged it would be better to abandon that part after salvaging what you could for parts and storing them on the other part, there's that. Also, you could be a single ship to both fight and flank the same enemy.
I could see that
Agreed.
The saucer seperation capability could be very useful in a combat situation. 😊
@@ohlawd3699 Not really. Saucer Sep for combat is dumb. The enemy isn't going to sit and wait for you to transform like Voltron.
Just because you dont see an enemy for six years, doesn't mean you forget about them and do not prepare for them. The Federation was preparing for both the Dominion and the Borg. We also see in Voyager at the end that the Borg were creating new hubs and rethinking their strategy of how to attack the Federation.
Picard was really well known for keeping the peace and inspiring hope. So was Neville Chamberlain.
I loved the notion of inconsistencies as a tribute to Voyager's writing.
The Enterprise-E was one of the coolest designs in Trek's run.
No such thing as "Too Powerful" in war, only games.
The Sovereign is a truly beautiful ship. BTW...feel better soon...and hope the surgery isn't anything dangerous. Be safe and well, Lore!
The ships you listed in the video were most likely anti-borg weapons. While you give a time line to back your theory,(Wolf 359 to Dominion war), you don't factor in a few things.
Like how long does it take to design and build a ship? NCC 1701-D was built from 2243 to 2245. When you factor in design time, shakedown runs and other miscellaneous stuff, it makes more sense these ships were created as anti-borg weapons. They just got deployed to fight the Dominion.
You answered your own question about what weakness the Sovereign has: They're costly to build so you'll encounter few of them compared to other ships.
And don´t forget the lackluster rearward armament the Sovereign class had before 2379^^
"The Sovereign is an absolutely beautiful ship." I agree; it seems to borrow some of the best events from the TMP refit and the D. I always thought the D looked unbalanced and bloated. However, the TMP refit will always be my favorite in terms of aesthetic appeal.
The Library is what powers the P.A.D.D.'s, silly. And the Captain's Yacht is featured in Insurrection.
Well, having a library in today's sense of the word (a place where books are stored for shared access) wouldn't make much sense when books are sets of data and not physical objects made of paper. But a "library" as place where information can be accessed particularly well (e.g. not having to deal with bandwidth issues, being able to use display devices other than P.A.D.D.s) or providing a place where groups of people can work together, that's not one of their personal quarters, would still make sense.
I think initially these ships were in-fact put on the drawing board with the intent on fighting the Borg. Im sure even in the 24th Century it takes a decade or two to design a new ship. Sure during the design phase new threats would come forward changing things and rushing to service. So yea they were designed for the Borg but finalized for the Dominion. You could say if it were not for the Borg SF would not have been prepared for the Dominion.
My dear chap - the reason that people consider the vessels at the battle of Sector Zero Zero One to be the Anti-Borg fleet - is because Shelby says as much on screen.
Also there is no reason what so ever that you can't both be right - they are the "anti-Borg fleet" and they are also in pert built for other reasons.
Such as the Norway & Steamrunner were built to replace the ageing Excelsior class, the Saber to replace the Obereth (as well as to act as a scout class vessel) & the Akira to replace or supplement the Ambassador class as well as to act as a strike cruiser.
No to mention the Intrepid was also designed to supplement or replace the Miranda and Obereth as well as act as medium class vessel (a frigate of sorts) not to mention it was also a technology demonstrator of her era (much like the Nebula was before her and the Excelsior before that).
All the classes of vessel that were old or of only limited use into the 2360's were pretty much abandoned and replaces with vessels that had a more overt offence and defence (unlike the ships at the battle of Wolf 359 - some of which would have barely held their own against Cardassians).
So think of the federation mindset - they build ineffectual and weak science vessels and explorers that got smashed to pieces by the borg and that could barely hold up to the Cardassians in the 2360's the Romulans come back sporting a ship bigger than the pride of their fleet.. and they meet an enemy that would run right over them and another not that long after that would do the same.
It was expected that the Borg who eventually showed up in First Contact would have arrived in force in about a decade (perhaps more) so just because Janeway later gave them a good slap doesn't mean the choices made in the 2360's would have lead to building tougher ships.
So lets look at the designs of the new ships.
Lower profile (harder to hit)
Armoured Nacelles & smaller Bussards
More weapons and larger torpedo spreads - eventually Quantum Torpedoes
Armoured panels on key areas
More phaser strips and ones of a higher power output and often longer strips
(Though some of the older ship have long strips too - they are older style strips).
So the time line seems pretty obvious really and there isn't any contradiction - some rejigging went on like the Nova class starting as a scrappy little ship and ending up more as a short range scout and science ship (much like a less aggressive looking Saber).
As for the movable nacelle struts - I think that is a bit of an in joke referring to the way the ship used to have struts facing the other way & how the height of the nacelles above the saucer was changed (for look - but not really a very good idea for protection).
----
As for those plates on the E's saucer I'd suggest several possible explanations.
1) The hid auxiliary components we never saw - maybe even warp sustainers for the saucer.
2) They are heavy armour over a key component underneath (like the computer core or Impulse fusion reactors) much like Prometheus also has
3) They are heavy secondary deflector systems that cover the bridge and the impulse exhausts.
4) They could be radiators to dump the heat caused by the new phasers or the engines.
----
As for the Engines looking similar to the old ones - they do have a totally different internal layout to most 2360's vessels one shared by the Nova Class and Prometheus.
I suspect (But I've not checked) this is a function of the new 'swirl' warp core design it also is why the ships doesn't cause damage to subspace.
It maybe that ships of the 2360's with their double coil designs they share with the D are the main cause of such damage and Miranda and Excelsiors were an easy fix.
If it wasn't as easy to do that with the others that adds further reasons why the older post lost years ships disappeared from service and ceased being made (or at least shown).
I consider it likely that all those other ship classes were in use - just never shown.
Shelby, my good lad, says they will rebuild the fleet. I'm not sure if she says anti borg fleet.. and she definetly does not - my sweet crumpet' - ever say akira, steam runner, or anything of the sort.. my lovely maiden
Lore Reloaded
I think that the Dominion War forced the Federation to check its own naivety and optimism, and they saw that they needed to grow up. The Universe is dangerous, and the Federation wasn't prepared. As a result, they took awful losses during the Dominion War, and needed to build a more advanced and stronger fleet, replacing the old and outdated ships. The Dominion just knocked the Federation out of their hubris attitudes, to realize that the Borg and other threats were real, and Starfleet had better get off of their asses to pair their now battle-hardened Officers with ships capable of fighting effectively and not just as explorers. The return of Voyager along with the knowledge and technologies they brought back only underscored their need to prepare. The Borg are coming, and so far they'd just been extraordinarily lucky that the Borg hadn't yet chosen to focus on the Federation just yet, giving them time to prepare. Some have speculated that the Q Continuum might have had a hand in that, keeping the Borg occupied until the Federation had time to get stronger.
(All that keeping in mind that we're talking about a fictional universe.)
just my own personal theory on the matter, but I think Federation politics played a larger role in what was built than initially suspected. rather that there might be at least 2 or more feuding political positions within starfleet, your TNG pacifistic at all costs group prioritizing exploration and science, and the more militant aspects of the federation (I.E. Sisko) who would want and push for newer vessels that can handle themselves better than TNG designs. I think at the time of the battle of sector 0 0 1 your classic TNG policy makers were very much the dominant faction and this is why the anti-borg designs were not produced then and there, so it would be the dominion war that would put the more militant aspects of starfleet to the forefront and allow for desperately needed new designs, that yes were initially created to handle the borg, but the dominion is not as technologically powerful as the borg which would make the new ships more than adequate for the current threat
Shelby was in charge of Starfleet's tactical analysis and defensive planing for a potential Borg invasion and was given the lead role of the task force responsible for rebuilding the fleet fresh after they just got rekt by the Borg. The Dominion was non-existent at this point. Like, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that these ships were built with the Borg specifically in mind.
I think the design of intrepid class was heavily influenced by the romulams becoming more of a threat. (From TNG) more manoverable than a warbird and as powerful as a galaxy. Hence this is why it so powerful.
Always will be my favorite Enterprise, and with the Defiant my favorite Starfleet vessels. Your flagships should be warships; exploration should be secondary. Let the Luna class be your prime exploration vessels; The word 'sovereign' sends a subtle but clear message of 'battle-ready.'
I think using a term such as "Anti-Borg" might just have been a convenient catchall in the federation. After Wolf-359 the Federation would have seen the massive gap in their ships combat abilites. Even after the Dominion War started the "Anti-Borg" annishiative may have just been the nod and wink to saying warships. Starfleet records will only say Anti-Borg rather then Warship thus politicians can claim it all as defence and not warships.
The idea of overwhelming the Borg with firepower, when they can adapt to any attack is stupid. The Borg weren't beaten by phasers and torpedoes at the end of Best of Both Worlds.
@@andrewdevine3920 Sure but the idea of making everything politically palatable for the general public is sound. The average Federation voter would probably accept greater firepower working on the Borg.
@@andrewdevine3920 because they kill cubes quicker, giving them less time to adapt. There are thousands of phaser frequencies to choose from, and it needs to locate each one. Even if it takes only 2 seconds.
Given what the Sovereign class had, it really starts to make me think the joke about getting rid of problem captains by sending an oberth against the borg may not be a joke.
The Sovereign-class Starship was not designed to battle the relatively conventional Dominion but the incalculable threat posed by the Borg. As such,the ship had to have a compact design, insanely powerful weapons and advanced technologies just to keep pace with the Collective. The Sovereign also uses a noticeably more powerful warp drive than on previous starships,as evidenced by the considerably larger warp core in Engineering. Non-canon sources such as the DITL indicate that the new warp drive was designed to allow the Sovereign to reach potential trouble spots in a relatively short period of time and I believe that. It simply makes sense to me.
It also makes sense that the Enterprise and her sister Sovereigns would also be equipped with ablative armor and regenerative shields,even though they are not explicitly mentioned in dialogue. We know for a fact that she is equipped with quantum torpedoes, which is explicitly mentioned as Borg-fighting weaponry. Evidence of the regenerative shielding can be found in Star Trek:Nemesis when Shinzon takes his sweet time disabling the Enterprise enough for his boarding party to capture Picard--although his need to get Picard alive may have quite a bit to do with this.
As the Sovereign and her sisters would also be assigned to long patrols of border territories, they would naturally be equipped with the necessary luxuries one would expect from a modern Starfleet vessel to ensure maximum performance of the ship's crew,such as comfortably equipped quarters and holodecks.
As for the Sovereign's presence, or lack thereof, during the Dominion War,I argue that it takes a significant amount of time, even in the 24th century to build starships the size of the Sovereign-class or even the Constitution-class. As the existing Miranda and Excelsior-class ships were more numerous and more available than the Sovereign-class, that,along with the Galaxy-class, was what Starfleet went along with, with predictable results. This wouldn't be the first time Starfleet would use older ship classes to bolster their ability to assemble a combat ready fleet in an emergency,as evidenced by Picard's blockade of Romulan space during the Klingon Civil War.
The Star Trek Starship Spotter describes the Sovereign-class as, "the best balance of exploratory and tactical capability since the Constitution-class,a century earlier" and I believe it. With the tactical power of the Defiant-class and the scientific research and long-range exploration capabilities of the Galaxy-class,the class really is the best of both worlds.
One of the reasons they stopped developing the defiant was some technical issues with the systems. Sisko mentioned these in a DS9 episode when he brought the defiant back.
Indeed.. I talk about it in my break down.
The Sovereign is my second-favorite ship after the Excelsior. Even at a century old, I would have an (upgraded) Excelsior hull as my chosen vessel as an admiral.
As a model builder, one thing of which I am deeply aware is that the Sovereign class ship appeared in three (actually four) distinct configurations. When she first appeared in “First Contact,” she was filmed both from a physical model and a CGI model based on the studio model. The original AMT (now Polar Lights) 1/1400 scale kit was based largely on this model, although with some deficiencies due to the limitations of 3D mapping and mold making technology of the time. The captain’s yacht is visible on the studio model, as is the distinct line where the hull separation was designed to take place. John Eaves talked about it in Star Trek Magazine.
The CGI model underwent some fairly significant upgrades for “Insurrection,” without any major changes in proportion, but with significant detail changes. In particular, we see the captain’s yacht, the Argo, undock from the bottom of the saucer section. We also see that it shares space in the hull with a torpedo launcher. The overall color palette is also darker, and the area around the deflector is more rounded. This last was actually the originally planned design, which was modified back in “First Contact,” to simplify construction of the sets for the scenes around the deflector and the studio model. The hull details were improved and we saw some additional weapons emplacements.
The CGI model was essentially rebuilt from scratch for “Nemesis.” This resulted in a few significant changes in proportion as compared to the previous iterations. The pylons were angled slightly upward and forward, resulting in the warp nacelles being slightly higher and closer in relation to the primary hull. Additional torpedo launchers aft were added and the interface between the upper rear of the primary hull, with its hangar bay was changed significantly. Overall this changed the proportions of the ship enough to possibly result In a different internal deck layout. The layout of the windows on the hull also changed subtly, which again speaks to a possible reconfiguration of the decks. Once again, the color palette also changed as well, becoming darker still. We only catch a glimpse of the fourth configuration, when Enterprise is under repair in space dock at the end of “Nemesis.” Production sketches of this configuration have also been published. Changes included heavier warp pylons, and additional structural enhancements. One can posit that improved weaponry and shielding were also included in this refit.
What does all of this mean? It makes the proportions and size of the Sovereign class difficult to pin down, and when building the kit, a modeler has to decide early on which variant to build, and modify or replace kit parts as necessary. I am very curious to see which variant(s) details made it into the Eaglemoss collectible. My suspicion based on what I have seen of it is that it is probably, like the AMT model, based on the original production drawings, with a rounded housing for the deflector, and the other details matching the studio model.
Best breakdown of the ships lore and its inconsistencies. I love trekyards but you are much easier to listen to while i work on other stuff.
I don't think that these ships were build as anti-Borg but that was their intent and original design inspiration. The push of Dominion threat forced the designs either out of mothballs, onto the production line sooner, and/or slightly adjusted. If the fact that the Sovereign is dead set as anti-Borg, it's possible it was closest to the end of it's development that they didn't bother to make any changes considering how complex of a ship it was.
I would have loved to have seen some Sovereign action in the Dominion War.
I had this thought to, but then when you consider the defiant.. Would they really continue construction when the first ship failed and the defiant was moth balled? DS9 dialogue make it seem like this was the only ship in production and it failed. And it would have been cool. We all know why it wasn't in real life.. DARN PARAMOUNT
Lore Reloaded
The Defiant I think was first from the new ship design initiative. It would make sense given it's size and purpose, or more time and resources were allocated to the development of the Sovereign...which might explain how a couple small escort destroyer, a light cruiser, a heavy cruiser, and a battleship all went into production and service around the same time.
But on another thought. Given the threat level of the Borg, when they do attack, you could say the same weapon systems would be equally as effective if not more so against Dominion ships.
I'd hope by the 24th century, that if you needed a ship, you'd design it fully, then hit the print button...
(with transporters and replicators, this should be possible. it doesn't make sense to 'build' it like a model kit)
I like Probert's idea that the ship would be grown.
In star trek bridge commander (which is not really canon even with Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner voicing their roles) they explain that the original sovereign was in mothball for five years following a shield problem when they launch it, because as a prototype they crammed everything they could inside and surprisingly, it failed. When they give it to you they transfer the entire crew of your last ship, that would give credential to the lack of personnel in starfleet, and the situation with the war could explain the lack of time to take care of an unstable ship when stable and proven design are easier to produce even if less powerful. The only reason the defiant is completed is because Sysko decided to finish it himself, I wonder how many non working ship design starfleet has stocked away like this.
Love the class and command one in star trek online!
very cool
This and the Constitution Refit are my two favorite classes. Glad you're covering one of them!
The captain's yatch is seen in first contact. Saucer separation was seen as a tactical advantage after the enterprise used it against the Borg.
Hey guys, two things.. 1) Sorry I sound sick in this.. Ugh, It's cause I am sick..right before a surgery..great times.. Second! I did forget one piece that is 'Beta Canon' but I think is interesting. The phasers and even torpedos/quantum torpedos were designed to automatically rotate frequencies during a fight - this was specific to the borg because it assisted in preventing them from adapting. Nothing in Canon that actually supports it - but very very interesting.
The video game "Star Trek: Birth of the Federation" includes a reference to this technology, named "Multifrequency Beams". The premise goes that, on the law of averages in a firefight, if a phaser rotates between frequencies, it may eventually find a frequency that matches the shield's frequency, causing shield penetration and potential hull damage.
Nothing that goes against it either.
Good luck with the surgery. The Sovereign class is in my opinion the best looking ship ever designed first Star Trek.
Couple things:
1) Terrible timing for you to get sick. Hopefully everything goes according to plan.
2) Rotating frequencies is not a permanent solution against the Borg. Eventually, you'll run out of frequencies that will actually do damage, while the Borg will have adapted to everything else. Remodulation, rotation, multiphasic, all of these were stopgaps but not permanent solutions, as if the Borg ever got a proper chance, they would eventually adapt to them.
Lastly, I'd like to note that it seems, from what I've heard on your videos, that you consider Alpha Canon to be either incomplete or broken, due to conflicting sources and/or an utter lack of sources. If we take Paramount/CBS' approach, where only what's on-screen is canon, then there are going to be enough holes in ST lore to drive a space truck through, so I would recommend supplementing with Beta Canon, because then you at least have something to work with.
Lore Reloaded get well soon!
"Sovereign Class?"
"I'm sorry, Weyoun. I must assume control."
LOL
Yeah, yeah. I know it's a mixed up reference. 😂
Another one of my favorites aesthetically! I love the long, sleek look...
Good video, loved the Sovereign class for Enterprise E it was great call back to a more classic design.
Fun fact: the “bigger on the inside” ship in ENT was originally supposed to be the TARDIS, but BBC refuses to do a crossover episode.
Although it is not Alpha cannon the Bridge Commander user manual states "The prototype, U.S.S. Sovereign, NX-73811, was still in the design phase during the battle of Wolf 359, but began its actual testing at the time the lost Pegasus project was discovered on Stardate 47457.1." It goes on to state the U.S.S. Sovereign was the original prototype for regenerative shielding, but the tests failed, and the system was scraped until it was necessary for the Dominion War when it took a major rework to make it viable. Therefor the Enterprise-E had more conventional shields until its refit, but would have had got regenerative shielding by Nemesis. It is also mentioned that the Sovereign had some experimental Ablative Hull Armour, but it is not clear whether the Enterprise would have had it per-refit or not. It also has some interesting specs, although some of them may have been modified for game play balance.
Sovereign-Class Starship
As of 2373, this next generation heavy
cruiser is the most advanced starship in
Starfleet. Sovereign-class starships are
nearly 700 meters in length and feature 24
decks. The U.S.S. Sovereign (NX-73811) was
the prototype for the class. The U.S.S.
Enterprise-E was the second Sovereign-class
vessel, launched in 2372 under the command
of Captain Jean-Luc Picard.
Sovereign-class ships, assigned to the Maelstrom:
• U.S.S. Sovereign, temporary Captain Robert Soto, assigned to the Vesuvi
system for major refit.
• U.S.S. Enterprise, Captain Jean-Luc Picard, assigned routine patrol of the
Maelstrom.
SPECIFICATIONS:
Displacement: 3,205,000 metric tons
Overall Length: 685 metres
Overall Draft: 88 metres
Overall Beam: 251 metres
Propulsion: 2 LF-44 Advanced Linear Warp Drive Units
2 FIG-5 Subatomic Unified Energy Impulse Units
Velocity: Warp 6.0 Standard Cruising Speed
Warp 9.7 Maximum Cruising Speed
Warp 9.99 Maximum Attainable Velocity
Complement: 130 Officers, 725 Enlisted Crew, 0-3,045 Passengers
(855 Total Standard Crew)
Phasers: 8 Type XII Collimated Phaser Arrays
Torpedoes: 6 MK 95 Direct-Fire Photon/Quantum/Plasma Torpedo Tubes
(4 Forward & 2 Aft)
Special: Regenerative Shield System, ablative hull armour, bio-neural
gel packs, phase-plasma torpedoes.
Shields: FSS-3 Primary Force Field and Deflector Control System
Shield Ratings: 17 Fore, 11 Aft, 17 Dorsal, 17 Ventral, 11 Port, 11 Starboard
I like that - lot of details. Never got around to playing Bridge Commander...
Other non-canon Sovereign-class ships in the 2370s, from the games and RPGs: USS Musashi (possibly) and USS Independence?
USS Gibraltar NCC-75689; USS Hyperion NCC-76447, and USS Yorktown NCC-76902 (the last one I reversed the numbers slightly)
Chris sonofPear Play it Bridge Commander is the best Star Trek game I have ever played, closely followed by Star Fleet Command III, and Armada II.
I wanted to install Klingon Academy, Starfleet Command 3 and maybe Legacy. Got partway through Elite Force 2 (nice looking around Ent-E) and was on SFC2 for a while. Not much hard-disk space left.
LOVE IT. Sovereign class is my favorite star ship design in all of scifi. I know a lot of people will disagree with me, which is fine. But, I cant help but love it. It's a wonderful mesh of classic Constitution class with a modern look.
Also, for the lucky fan that wins that Eaglemoss figure, congrats! I have the Enterprise E and Defiant and I love them both.
I think its a really sleak ship - I don't under why people don't like it. It's fun.
I believe there are actually 49 Decks. 24 Crew Decks and 25 sub decks consisting of engine and crawlspaces. They first count the full decks top to bottom and then the sub decks top to bottom including the spaces in between the outer hull and the first and last decks. So the 29th Deck is actually located in between Decks 4 and 5. As Picard said the ship had 24 Decks he refereed to the actual living spaces and didn't count the sub decks which you only visit if you need to repair something.
I remember this ship in the game Star Trek Armada 2. The Sovereign class there had a special ability called carbonite shielding. It's very effective when taking on Borg Cubes and Tactical Cubes.
I think the variable-geometry warp nacelle thing came from one of the concept sketches of the ship that showed it with pylons not unlike Voyager's, that would rise or flatten as the ship switched between warp and impulse. Should be in the Eaglemoss magazine, actually. Of course they never actually ended up using that idea, but some things seem to stick in the minds of fans and supplementary material writers...
It's still in the eaglemoss magazing actually..
It is? Huh, I just remember it in the concept art section.
And that ecological thing only matters in that one region of space where warp drive does damage subspace TNG episode ...whatever. In regular regions standard warp nacelles are fine, otherwise all the previous starfarers would have destroyed FTL millennia ago.
+casbott Or maybe that particular region of space was just weak enough that the subspace rupture happened far sooner than other areas (having a warp core intentionally detonated to prove the theory certainly didn't help), but the other areas are getting close to their limits too. Don't forget the wormhole scene in _The Motion Picture,_ where the improper alignment of the newly-refitted warp engines tore a small hole in space. If that could happen there, who's to say that something more serious isn't just around the corner, so to speak?
I love the look of the Sovereign Class. So much so, that I put about a month of time into building the model...my first model build to be exact.
You make a very fair and good argument for the anti-Dom (not anti-Borg). I agree with you. Good analysis of a great vessel!
Another great video lore this is one of my favorite ship class.
You need to start looking at how Naval Fleets work. When ships go out of date they are replaced. NOW, that bearing in mind, in TNG you see Starfleet using ships that are nearly a CENTURY out of date. Clearly the Borg threat gave Starfleet a kick in their negligent backsides. Even if the Borg threat was no longer in the publics minds, Starfleet would have begun this huge ship building programme in order to ensure Starfleets abilities into the next century and this would only get a further boost after the battle of Sector 001 and then the Dominion threat.
Ships centuries out of date in tng were still used in ds9
I didn't say they had finished ... you cant replace an entire fleet over night ... between the first encounter with the Borg and the Dominion War Starfleet had designed new ships AND technology and already begun production. That is pretty good going. I bet by the time of Nemesis, they had 90% of the fleet made up of newer classes.
you can update and upgrade this tech numerous times, especially with many different standards in play. There is little to say that starships could not be modularly upgraded; the Klingons seem to use the same ships with new tech every few years. The Birds of Prey of Kirk's time would not even scratch a DS9 era ship but those in DS9's era could go toe to toe with Je'm Hadar and Breen ships. and yet are essentially the same ship with different upgrades
@@LoreReloaded well if you look at current USN vessels we make ships that can be constantly upgraded like the recently decommissioned CVN65 USS Enterprise if was in service for 55 years. It wouldn't make sense to make ships that could be heavily upgraded with new tech I suspect that classes like the Excelsior where built with that discipline. Now maybe century might be a stretch but it wouldn't make sense to build ships if your just going to render them obsolete in just 20 years.
@rickyssmith Yes, and no. Once technology plateaus old ships can stick around as long as their maintenance cost doesn't outstrip their rebuild cost. Ships in the age of sail often stuck around for around a century until all of them were obsoleted in a single battle between the Monitor and the Virginia.
Modern navy ships have an expected lifespan of at least 50 years. The Gerald Ford class is being built with far more reactor power than she needs with the understanding that some of that power will be used by technologies yet to be devised and she is expected to remain in service through most if not the entirety of the current century.
All of that could change in a single battle if a paradigm shift forces it. In the Starfleet Universe was the Battle of Wolf 359.
Starfleet seems to have a "if it isn't broke don't fix it." mentality in Universe.
Out of universe the reasons those ships stuck around is that building models for CGI in the 80's, 90's and early 00's was a pain in the ass. They had Miranda models from Star Trek II and Excelsior models from Star Trek III, why not use them.
Hell, the real reason the Enterprise is blown up in Generations is so the Film crew would have an easier model to film.
I was always under the impression Starfleet IS the military of the Federation. Like all military, there are different branches. Some explore, some protect, some wage war.
Many years ago I bought a sovereign model (Enterprise-E from First Contact) pre-painted with internal lights (for the windows and naccelles), and although I also collect Gundam and other model (kits) it remains my favorite model. Especially at night with the light on against a starry backdrop it almost looks like it can go to warp at any moment.
Many enlisted people are considered non commissioned officers.
+Anthony Dukes You mean the guy who's rank is the biggest inconsistency in all of Star Trek?
Cheif O'Brian was definately a non comissioned officer.
There was an episode where a Gem'Hadar explecitly mentioned that O'Brian was considered a noncom (non commisioned officer
Any enlisted in Starfleet above the rank of Crewman is a non-commissioned officer.
+Anthony Dukes Nothing inconsistent about O'Brien's rank. He was a Habitual Enlister...the only inconsistency was finding him shipboard (positions nearly completely filled by Academy graduates...i.e. "officers") instead of on a ground installation or Starbase somewhere.
O'Brian is specifically a Chief Petty Officer, which is an enlisted rank. An enlisted crewman becomes a non-commissioned officer when he reaches an appropriate rank. Commissioned officers are the rank structure that starts at ensign. I would expect O'Brian to be more likely a Senior Cheif Petty Officer or a Master Chief Petty Officer considering his experience and responsibilities.
Andrew King If memory serves O'Brian served as Tactical Officer on the Rutledge, which is usually a commissioned slot. Could have been a field commission during the Cardassian War which was later rescinded.
Eh, on general design and capabilities, I really don't think Enterprise actually 'becomes a 'Mary Sue' ship unless limited to warp eight, ' which is considered slow for such a ship by many orders of magnitude, and...kind of doesn't square with the movies where it seems to get everywhere kinda *too* quickly. (As annoying as 'How many decimal places toward Warp 10 can you go' is, it covers a lot of handwaving plot-speeds: if anything, maybe the Galaxy class set the bar too high and the new warp scale unnecessarily Monty Hallish.)
As 'eco-friendly' engine speedlimits go, it seems that 'variable geometry' really only had to mean "The warp nacelles pivot" as a stopgap for interim designs. (It may have had other advantages too, but they didn't stick with the technology. At all. ) And they still use the same old spaceframes and many more new ones without moving nacelles, so rather than assuming stupidity, clearly they found a way to fix this in existing ships once the subplot got boring *recordscratch* Starfleet engineers did what they usually do which is, fix things brilliantly , especially when warp speeds and travel time are basically arbitrary anyway *recordscratch* it would clearly be the number one priority tech to give *everybody* before spacetime rips a hole in itself and everyone's back thinking on sublight timescales at best.
Anyway, it makes perfect sense that the Enterprise-E is at least as capable as the D, plus new tech, what it clearly did though, is give up a huge amount of mass and volume to the extent at least that if they ever let families back on, it won't be a whole town's worth of civilians or anything like that. (For fun, though, look around for the Oshimaru class renders someone made for something, that looks more like the next iteration for the Galaxy class type mission and I think looks cooler than the D. Which maybe they decided shouldn't be what class the flagship is, cause, that may have proven to be a bridge too far. Over and over. )
The Sovereign class and numerous other classes original design purpose was to fight the Borg, but ships take awhile to design and build. It makes perfect sense that they were taken off priority or even mothballed(like the defiant) after the Borg were seen as less of a threat, then revived when the federation needed warships to counter the dominion threat. In recent times it takes several years to design a ship, then build a prototype to test it out. I wouldn't be shocked if most of the anti-Borg ships were near completion or even had a prototype built, like the defiant had. They were designed to fight the Borg, but if it can fight the Borg they can most certainly fight a great deal of other foes.
The thing i like about you is that every time i see this kind of videos i get the desire of fly such ship in star trek online which i almost abandoned
Glad I can inspire you in that way
spacedock is different your good too!
This ship was nearly destroyed in every appearance it was in.
Indeed, that happens when you throw an insane enemy against it..
Yea, i guess no one would want to watch Big E have a normal day lol. We had that in TNG, but TNG was a good series on many levels. Hey, also, do you think there might be sub-level decks like C-deck or something for maintenance? I know there are the Jeffreys Tubes but if there are sub levels it might help explain some added decks, though it should show up on any Technical diagram so there probably isn't.
You're right. Also The Enterprise D seemed to be outmatched more often than not. The amount of times that ship survived considering it was the weaker ship is amazing. P.S. then it got taken out by an old rusty Klingon scout ship *FACEPALM*
To be fair, that old scout ship did have some inside information on how to bypass the defenses of the ship, and was also taken out during said battle because of its own seemingly insignificant but actually critical flaw.
Besides, who's to say that the Duras Sisters hadn't upgraded the weapons and shields of their ship over the years?
Apparently these people have never heard of "retromodding"...
per the original technical manual even the ncc-1701 (no bloody a, b c or d) had saucer separation capability, the system used explosive bolts and once activated there was no chance for re-attachment. the saucer separation system was intended as a "lifeboat" or "whole crew escape/landing pod"
The moment I saw this ship in the 90's I immediatelly fell inn LOVE
With regards to the "Anti-Borg Fleet" debate, I must respectfully disagree with your assessment. While the actual construction and activation of these ships, much like that of the Defiant, was prompted by the thread of the Dominion, the origins of many of Starfleet's more combat oriented vessels can still be traced back to the disastrous Battle of Wolf 359. With the new, devastating Borg threat, Starfleet embarked on a program to design and build new warships, as illustrated by the Defiant class. As the Borg threat diminished, support for building these vessels would've waned until the Dominion arrived as a threat. With the new, powerful threat, ships that were either languishing as partly built hulks in shipyards or existing solely as a blueprint, were dusted off to counter the new threat. (A shame that contractual issues prevented more ships from First Contact appearing in DS9, instead we got those kitbash ships and redshirt Mirandas...)
The Sabre, Akira, Steamrunner, and of course Defiant classes all showed up quite a bit in DS9. The norway didnt because they didnt like the design(neither do I) and the sovereing was saved for the big screen, to keep the E special.
Still I'd have liked to see a sovereign a couple times in the war. At least Galaxys were kicking ass left and right
I would like to point out that you are not talking about a "Anti-Borg Fleet" since those ships where never really designed to just only fight the Borg. You are pointing out that since Wolf 359 and the fact that the Borg really became a big threat to the Federation, Starfleet completely reworked its active mandate, the full scale militarization of the Federation if i'm correct, not to deviate from their pacifistic way of looking at the universe, but more to conduct their original mandate without the real fear of being defeated by the Borg so easily. I think that this was simply step 2 in the UFP becoming more militarized, where Admiral Marcus long ago started the phase 1 in the eyes of the Klingon threat. So again, not disagreeing with your words, but there is a deeper meaning to this then just a simple Anti-Borg Fleet
I really don't think that just cause they discontinued the troubled (and maybe too solely-aggressive while being self-destructey and, err, they didn't know one would get a cloak,) Defiant design that they had all of Starship Design Bureau actually sitting on their hands and designing lounges and gelato machines. They had Sovereigns and all the rest to be developing and building. "Small ships? Make a whole bunch of Saber-class as good as we can and actually have them work,' then put the bigger guns and engines on new designs that also are likely to kick ass. " Earth military history says that sure, a Tiger tank is a world beater, but you'd really rather have a couple hundred T-34s or even Shermans instead of a few of those, maybe later....
Sovvie development was probably a long process starting maybe even before Borg threats changed priorities, and involving a lot of back and forth between testbeds and ship classes, the Sovvie ending up with all the latest tech as of when they finally made a flagshippey package of it.
OllamhDrab good points. I think the defiant was mostly put on the backburner as opposed to development stopping. After the dominion made their first appearance Sisko took off for a few months and came back with the ship. It was obviously already almost done. He just went to help work out the issues with the ship and get it flying.
Also your description of sovvie development reminds me of the f22
It could easily be the ships were designed and then halted. Due to political pressure form the peace party or whatever. Then when the Dominion showed up that have the militant party. Enough political juice with he public to push the designs into production. The UFP is a democracy so public opinion has to be accounted for. The public isn't always or even often logical now. I see no reason that wouldn't be true in the 24th century.
About the warp speed of the Sovereign class, I don't know if this is in your sources or not, but I did not hear you mention it.
Usually there is a difference between cruising speed and maximum speed. Perhaps this is where the difference between warp 8, warp 9.7 and warp 9.985/9.995 comes from. That's why it usually is not ordered specifically to go to warp 9.995 (or another speed), but rather "maximum warp", like in First Contact ("Lieutenant Hawk, set a course for Earth. Maximum warp.").
However, when a cruising speed, or not a high speed is required, they do order a warp number, like "Set a course to ..., warp 8.". Which would be the most energy efficient speed (and maintainable for much longer), or maybe even cruising speed. Because maximum warp is only possible to hold for a relative short time.
So I think max efficiency or maybe cruising speed is at warp 8, maximum warp is either 9.7, 9.985 or 9.995. Or 9.7 may be even it's cruising speed, however I think that's unlikely.
But that's what I think, without seeking out sources.
It having a maximum warp of 8 is ridiculous. It's been stated by the designer and people that worked on the show it was designed to fight the Borg. Why on Earth would Starfleet design a ship to fight the Borg but make it so slow? Wouldn't getting to the Borg be a high priority? Also, making it slower by the older Galaxy Glass wouldn't make any sense. LaForge states in First Contact it's the most advanced ship in the fleet and that usually would also mean Warpcore. It being slower than much older Federation ships makes no sense, hell it would be slower than a Defiant as well. Having your most powerful ship slower than other older Federation vessels is silly because if they're all going to a battle, having your most powerful ship slower and arriving later is laughable.
Advanced doesn't always mean fast. The sovereign had massive power demands that would represent a drain on the warp core.
That said, the slimmed down profile would also mean it could maintain a smaller warp bubble, so their are arguments to be made either way
Sovereign is definitely going to be fast. A slower ship will always be at the mercy of a faster one.
Also from a cinematic design point of view, does it look like the Sovereign should be slow? No? Then it isn't.
Yeah... I found the mere thought of the Sovereign, a ship that was designed to be the Porsche of Fed's flagships, a ship that is faster and far more nimble than its size implies, to have a maximum warp that is slower than the Galaxy to be stoo much, especially at warp 8. I also find it silly that the reason it'd be slower so that it doesn't come off as a Mary Sue ship, and yet from a narrative and in-universe standpoint, it makes little to no sense to have the latest flagship with all the major and proven advances at that time to have such a blatant weakness, especially compared to its predecessor, a ship that is implied to be slower yet can go above warp 9. I don't even consider the Sovereign to be 'overpowered', let alone a Mary Sue or a fanfic type ship; rather I consider it to be appropriate for a ship that was supposed to be the Fed's pride and joy, especially one bearing the name Enterprise.
I really wish we could have seen the sovereign go toe to toe with a Dominion battleship.
It's, in my opinion, one of the best looking ships in the fleet, and after it's refit is probably one of the most powerful.
It does in the books.
According to the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual, when the Enterprise-D was initially launched from Utopia Planitia, a full 35% of the customizable space was left empty, to be later filled with individual modules as seen fit.
Maybe this is also true of the Sovereign Class. The lower sections of the ship may have been empty until decks were added later.
I can't say why the number changed in the middle of the movie.
If mankind no longer uses money in star trek, why not build as many sovereign class ships as you want?
shinsonic12
It doesn't mean that economic and resource management went out with it.
You still only have a finite amount of resources whether or not money is involved
If they built many, the enemies might stole one of the ships and reverse engineers to fight against the federation, so they built a few sovereign-class
From what iknow The Soverign Class where supposed to be Command ships for fleets.
When First Contact came out, the reported max speed was Warp 9.985, faster than previous classes, but not insanely so. Variable warp geometry was achieved not by tilting the entire nacelles, but by manipulating individual warp coils along the internal length of the warp nacelles.
I wish I had a source to throw at you, but all I have are the clear as day memories of an 11-year old boy who fell in love with the Enterprise-E and never forgot a damn thing about her.
What I find amazing is that they have not figured out that the fans want to know all the specs and that having such specs ahead of time would help when writing scripts.
REMEMBER ITS CANON THAT SHELBY SAID SEVERAL SHIP CLASSES WERE BEING BUILT SAME WITH WEAPONS
CAPS MAKES ME RIGHT. We have no evidence of what the ships are or were and given the fleet would take only a year it's unlikely it was the more advanced ships.
I do have a physical print reference for some of the statistics in a copy of The Star Trek Encyclopedia "expanded edition" from 1997.
In this guide the ship was 700meters long and 24 decks thick.
The book was published by Pocket Books under and exclusive Licence from Paramount. The authors Michael Okuda, Denise Okuda and Doug Drexler.
+Joshua MacDonald That's interesting..though books aren't considered Canon at this point unfortunately
Lore Reloaded I understand... I still havent brought myself to watch STD as I remeber leading up to its release that it was suppose to be prime time line cannon and what I thought I knew was no longer cannon. I know I will get over it. I got over it with enterprise and ended up enjoying that series.
Yea, it's very much jj verse in my opinion.
It was a good rough estimate for a book, yeah.
Books aren't considered canon...except the Encyclopedia, since all sources in the 1997 edition do, in fact, come from canon and cite directly to the episodes and/or movies that provide said information.
The STE is actually about as "canon" as canon can get, since they did not reference novels or games. They were, in fact, Memory Alpha before the internet.
Love the design of the Enterprise-E. Soo sleek and dangerous!!
saucer separation was a gimmick they thought would be cool.
I noticed there are food recplactors on the bridge but every serfice is at an angle. Are there cup holders
timelord technology.....FACEPALM!
My favorite ship in star trek....
yes, STOLEN FROM THE BORG, WHO STOLE IT FROM THE CYBERMEN, WHO STOLE IT FROM THE TIMELORDS.
This will always be my favorite starship class. Its sleek and powerfull. I saw it first in Nemesis (Not my most favorite Trek) and it was really the first and sadly last time we saw its true power in combat. In love with it ever since
I love this ship. Just wish we could see more of it.
STD SPOILER ALERT. woh buddy
...what STD spoiler did I give exactly?
mention of a mirror universe.
@@chaosconspectus That's...that's nothing new. Pretty much all Trek shows had a mirror universe...
for STD it was the "big twist" that was supost to make the whole show worth watching.
B P The Mirror Dimension featured in TOS and DS9 (Not sure if in VOY).
Nope. Don't agree. You say only about 6 years traversed between both attacks and think that that is enough time to forget the entire plannet almost getting assimilated. Not buying it. It would take almost that long to research design and construct these ships. Totally all of that new group of ships is designed with the intent of fighting off the borg. Any ship that could hold it's ground against the borg could hold it's ground against the dominion. The defiant was brought out of mothballs not because the heat of borg fear had died down and led the project to be canx but because it was one of the early anti borg prototypes and as such didn't work as well as hoped and was abandoned in favor of other designs. It was built as a real world tech development prototype. The dominion cold war caused it to be dragged out for use but other classes of ships were being built and designed already based on the theoretical work done on defiant. Based on defiants success around ds9 the class was continued. Had the borg not prompted the construction of more powerful warships they would not have been at all ready for the dominion. The completion of these ships during and very shortly after the dominion war shows they were in fact built in response primarily to the borg as utopia planetia can't crap out new advanced ships at the drop of a hat. I think somewhere in tng it says it took 5 years to build enterprise d. So the delay of abt 6 years makes sense for a borg response fleet. The dominion war just reaffirmed the already obvious need for more badassery than the old ships could put out but still why prepare to fight a b list enemy when you know you are gonna have to fight an a list enemy. Some specifics things would have been added based on the dominion but gen preping to fight borg preps you to fight anybody.
Your argument is with the writers of star trek.
variable nacelles + saucer separation = bonus coolness factor
I remember the first time I saw the E on the big screen back in 96. I fell in love big time!! Not a bad angle on the whole ship.😍
I liked this video but only allowing usa patrons is for the giveaway is a horrible idea. Not only does it cost practically the same to ship to Canada but if you can't afford to hold a giveaway for everyone, you shouldn't hold it at all. If i were considering becoming a patron, this would be a deal breaker.
At no point did I say it was USA only, I said I would talk with you and see what I could do. Canada is more, I've actually looked it up. And I'm fine if you decide not to be patreon. You are, howewver, welcome to pay my shipping costs.
Lore Reloaded "just so you kow ill be sending out one to a patron in the US" "after march 2nd one random paron will be chosen from the US" "As stated US citizens only"
Lore Reloaded 11:24 in case you need to hear yourself say it.
Gotcha.. well I apology for snarkiness. What I generally say is 'US guaranteed..I will see what I can do with non us residents until I can afford all over the world '. I'll pin a comment with a clarification
shipping from anywhere from the US to Canada cost anywhere between 50% to 75% more than shipping flat rate all over the US
not to mention the taxes involved as well as the likelyhood of things go missing because tracking becomes a nightmare once Canadian post takes over
Well researched and well done! I love your analysis and presentation's
Man i love this your logic is flawless !
glad you enjoy
"In what must be an homage to Voyager's writing. . ."
El. Oh. El!
SUBSCRIBED!
I don't remember where I read this, but I think the Sovereign has a lower top speed than the Galaxy Class. That would make sense. The Galaxy Class was in development for many years, while the Sovereign Class was more of a rush job to replenish the fleet with more tactically capable ships after Wolf 359. It would be faster than Warp 8, though. Pretty much every Starfleet vessel of the era was at least Warp 9 capable, with the probable exception of the Oberth.
Lennis01 soverign also has the engines that wont fuck up subspace
If you think about it, the Sovereign is a dreadnought. An apex predator. The fact that it stood against Shinron's ship, when the Romulan heavy cruisers were knocked out fairly quickly shows this is a very strong ship.
A library would make sense as a secondary social gathering location after the bar. It could even have paper books as opposed to the datapads. It would serve more of an R&R function for the crew than a tactical function.
Mmm.. I don't know. Maybe
Also about the Sovereign-class. It’s Starfleet’s second most beautiful ship design. Nothing can beat the Constitution refit.