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I'll just use this video to gripe about fleet command. Too complicated. I mean I'm still nowhere near completing Timelines, but FC was a whole other level of frustration for me. To make matters worse, last time I reinstalled the game, all my ships were gone. I didn't have many or anything truly remarkable, but when I came back, not even the initial basic ship given was AWOL. Fuck that.
Played it for 2 years gave it a good go but it keeps adding more and more junk and hasn't fixed any of the big bugs that where around since launch. They need to stop adding stuff each month and focus on the actually PVP side of the game that is tipped to the whales who are spending thousands each month just to bully everyone else
The class name says it all, "Sovereign", it is the supreme ruler, the ultimate power, allies gaze upon it with awe and enemies tremble before it. It is the 'find out' part of Starfleet's new 'fuck around and find out' policy.
Starfleet....is a promise. A promise that we've gotten so GD good at killing sh!t, that we've went from'A flying hotel's to The E, which is pretty much METAL GEAR: REX in space. We PROMISE, If you play stupid games with us, you WILL win a stupid prize!
Under normal circumstances Starfleet is dedicated to the expansion of knowledge. In times of crisis and war however, they very much take after their ancestors, the U.S. Navy. The Borg fucked around and then the Sovereign class was created and they found out real quick.
Not just can they turn rocks into replicators, they also can design such systems to turn back into rocks at the slightest connection with enemy weapons.
The Sovereign is the best ship in looks, hands down. The flowing lines of the Galaxy without being so bulbous, but not too slimmed down like the Intrepid, while returning to the long nacelle format we had in the TOS and TMP eras that made OG and Refit Conny amazing. Discrepancies in descriptions are a Trek staple and I'm more than happy to blame the writers for that rather than scrape together an in-universe explanation for things like a difference in the number of decks. As far as her purpose, had we gotten to see her in a TV series I'm sure we would have seen more of her scientific side, but as the movies are generally more action focused that's the side we were forced to see. The Dominion War was also actively happening so it makes sense to be a bit more on a war footing when we see her. Perhaps after Nemesis, when the Dominion War is over and that crisis is concluded and the Enterprise repaired, she would have gone out to resume duties as Federation flagship and do peaceful exploration, possibly using the data Voyager had recently brought back.
Interesting back screen information. The designer of the Galaxy Class had planned the ship to look like panther paw leaping to attack. With the Warp Nacelles being shorter on the Back. To reflect the miniaturization of technology between The Motion Picture and The Next Generation. But Gene Roddenberry walked up and added that little extension on the back. Because he was to used to seeing the Large impressive looking Warp Necelles on Federation Starships. So in a way the Galaxy Class was his last Starship revision before he got to old and sick to be hands on with anything Star Trek..
I would think Enterprise E was fit out as a warship it was definitely refitted as a warship between 1st contact & Nemesis. Remember Picard's line "does anyone remember when we were explorers." A hint that they had become a military fleet. At least that's my take on it.
The writers forgot that Galaxy-class starships are supposed to separate from their saucer section before going into heavy combat. The saucer was dead weight and was only needed on long voyages because it had most of the ship's science labs and living space. The fighting half of the _Enterprise,_ or any other ship in her class, was the engineering section. Without the saucer, the _Enterprise_ was a speedy fighting machine that could overpower just about anything.
"Walk soft but carry a big stick" ships like the sovereign, Akira, prometheous, and defiant are essential to Roddenberry and his vision. An idyllic future of cooperation and exploration is fantastic and should be the goal of every civilization. However freedom isn't free and not everyone is going to share those ideas. There has to be that hard line in the sand, the shield and sword to keep the bad guys at bay. Peace and prosperity through strength is a pivotal aspect to keep your people free and keep them on the path of peace. Just because you have a massive fuck off ship doesn't make you the bad guys , it makes the bad guys think twice before they test that assumption at their earliest possible convenience.
Aye, like 2 Klingon sisters with a TOS era bird of prey going up against a Galaxy class from TNG era, it kind of shows you how weaken Golden age Trek's Federation became
I'm going to go with it was week, think about how fast the u.s.s. venture went down when it went up against a truly dedicated military power. Whether it was over confidence, arrogance or complete equipment failure the lesson was learned. Starfleet and their flagship class was totally outclassed
In fact now I am fan theorizing that Starfleet even consulted him, bringing in every competent engineer they can find to quickly design a ship so revolutionarily different from the TNG Nebula/Galaxy class ships. Even Prometheus still had the TNG-era look.
I think he would have hated some things about it like the bioneural gel. Especially after his comment about the the Excelsior " The more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stop it up."
I think that in a way she is the spiritual successor of the constitution. Consider in the day of kirk, starfleet was more militaristic and the constitution was the most powerful starfleet ship in the day. The galaxy class represented aspiration during a golden age but also proved to be vulnerable. True dominion war upgrades would make them a force to be reckoned with but you couldn't see someone doing to the sovereign what the jemhadar did to the uss odyssey. Scimitar an exception since it was built as a Predator.
Considering the Sovereign was a cruiser that could be used for scientific and diplomatic missions, and it could also spank any of the Federation's neighbors if they got too rowdy, I'd say that the Sovereign has circled back to what the TOS Constitution was.
Yup, the Connie was designated a battlecruiser by the klinks, which is pretty much the highest respect they could pay her (ST:III "Sir! Federation Battlecruiser approaching!")
Cardassians would use this argument to point out from their perspective, the Federation only always flew around giant murder machines with a couple labs jammed in the middle of them so they can "claim" to be on "scientific missions". What kind of scientific mission requires the need for a way to kill at least 50 billlion people on on the surface on a planet? I mean, if I were Cardassian, I'd say that.
@@cerebrix If I were the Federation, my reply would be "Has the Obsidian Order not gotten you copies of our high-profile mission logs? Our ships keep running into hostile Space Gods and ancient Doomsday Weapons. Just be glad we're taking care of those for everyone."
@@dajonaneisnoah8714 it does lead one to wonder logically: are the missions of the few main ships shown in the various series a result of them being extraordinarily “lucky” or are there just so many new lifeforms of a higher order they keep running into, that Star fleet needs to keep a huge database to keep track of them all?
@@strictnonconformist7369 in TOS I always assumed it was because they were the tip of the exploration spear. True deep space exploration, and when you know less about where you are you meet a lot more....newness. TNG in the earlier days was broadly similar, but there seems to be a marked turn inward from the Federation and Starfleet towards the end of TNG. Probably due to the Borg showing them just how dangerous it gets that far out; and better to prepare the rear for any coming threat from the frontline. DS9...well they're on a mission to go no bloody place. Voyager...I genuinely do not like Voy so while I have watched some of it, I've missed lots. But my takeaway again is that what lies beyond known space tends to be big, mean, and unfriendly in the extreme. So combine all of that with the fact that the universe as a whole is incomprehensibly huge, and old and well you will run across all sorts of very big unfriendly things, and if you're the one going to new places you're more likely to be the ones to meet them. At least that's my take on it.
I had the opposite take on holodecks and suites: -HoloDECKs were larger and intended for a wide variety of tasks including large groups of people at once, and had significant vertical capacity spanning 2-3 decks. -HoloSUITEs were smaller, as we see Quarks are quite small, only filling a room about the size as a one-story cargo bay. This indicates that instead of the expansive holodecks on a Galaxy Class, the Sovereign had suites to save space.
The Galaxy class, IIRC, had different sized holodecks. Hence, a small one could serve a single user but a group would need a larger one as there are limits to what the the technology can do to fool occupants.
@@qdllc I figured holodecks would be for more tactical uses, simulating official stuff, etc. HoloSuites for recreation & more personal nature. Also HoloSuites would be smaller. That way if you needed minimal power usage in an emergency situation you could still have a smaller suite operate for tactical simulations, etc without endangering the whole ship from too much power consumption.
I also have issue with people thinking “suite” = larger. We see several times on DS9 that they are quite small…which makes sense for Quark’s bar. It’s also a scale issue. If you examine the promenade, it’s 1/4 to 1/3 the ring of the station (match the window type). There is no way the station is near the volume of a Galaxy class ship, but they frequently portray the station as having more volume inside than is possible. I doubt there’s anyplace on DS9 that could devote the volume needed for one of the larger holodecks available on a Galaxy class ship.
I always liked the non-canon background material in the Star Trek: Bridge Commander manual. It says that the Sovereign development started after the events of "Q Who," but it was still in development by the Battle of Wolf 359. It was to be a testbed ship incorporating ablative armour, regenerative shields, bio-neural gel packs, and faster warp drive systems, but since as a whole the ship never quite worked properly during its trials around 2371 those technologies got spun off into the Defiant Class (armour), Prometheus Class (shields), and Intrepid Class (gel packs) respectively to be refined, while the Sovereign prototype sat in storage. Around that time a second Sovereign hull was laid down with conventional shields and deflector systems, and that became the Enterprise-E; it was still the most advanced single ship in the fleet at the time, but it didn't have the full suite of enhanced systems that the original Sovereign was meant to have. Once the Prometheus had successfully demonstrated that regenerative shielding worked, Starfleet decided to refit the Sovereign prototype with all of the systems it had been intended to launch with; that refit is completed after the first few chapters of the game just as your character is promoted to command of the new Sovereign.
...I imagine a tipsy computer trying to make advances to Jean-Luc. "Mondieu Jean-Luc! So energetic this morning. Should i raise the room temperature so you may feel more ...relaxed?" ...a frightening thought! 😂😂
The way I see it, the Sovereign class, and her contemporaries like the Akira, are examples of Starfleet adapting to new threats. We know the Federation has always been pretty much the leader in technological advancement, and their ships had an advantage over those of the Klingon and Romulan Empires due to their multi-role nature rather than being specialized in one aspect or another. Not only that, Starfleet has always shown a capability to adapt and improvise, and usually a helluva lot faster than most factions. After Wolf 359, the Federation needed more ships with more of a combat focus. Essentially Starfleet in the 2370s started adapting to more represnt the saying "If you want peace, prepare for war". A hard lesson to learn, but losing 40+ ships in one battle was one helluva wakeup call for Starfleet.
The Borg clearly demonstrated they were the biggest force to be reckoned with, and made it clear they weren’t going to stop being a threat. Never mind the other known non-Borg neighbors in the galaxy they already knew about. And if nothing else has been made clear throughout history, fictional or not, past or not, however powerful you think you are, there’s always someone more powerful than you waiting to hand you your head. The more you explore, the higher the chances are you violate someone’s wishes to the degree you need to either be able to fight them, or outrun them, so no speed is fast enough to not be justifiable in exploration.
What we hear regarding Shelby is that when she came to StarFleet Tactical every Admiral Uncle had a take on the Borg and she 'cut through it... she put us on track.' My idea is this: 1) -All teams responsible for ships under development and all teams for ships under production and all teams for refit were consolidated into a single program. -All survivors of skill from W359 were transferred into the design program. -New purely tactical vessels were initiated. So: Sovereign, Akira, Intrepid, Nova, Steamrunner, Norway etc. All these ships were already being designed, due for refit, or entering production, but their teams were consolidated. While Sisko and may others were tasks with designing new tactical hull-forms and roles that filled gaps in the fleet at Wolf 359. 2) Specific think tanks were developed for systems that could be installed om any ship, but were not responsible for designing those ships. System development teams were classified, so assimilation could never expose the whole program. That is why SF Operations were unaware of the ablative armour on Defiant. -Advanced Ablative armour. -Quantum Torpedoes. -Pulse firing and rapid-firing automated-loading torpedo launchers, smaller and modular torpedo launchers with focus on continuing fire rather than the Galaxy-style burst firing. Etc. 3) They immediately halted installation of outdated systems and focused purely on constructing resilient and durable hull-forms, discarding designs and ships that were not anticipated to last long under fire from a Borg ship. 4) A mandate is put out that all new ships must be able to match the Galaxy Class in speed, as well as either firepower or defence, on at least one firing arc. As the Galaxy was the only ship shown to survive an encounter with a Borg Cube. So: -Sovereign goes from being an Excelsior replacement to the single most heavily armed and shielded ship in the fleet; removing most redundant and multi-mission scientific and cargo capacity for tactical capability, allowing a ship 1/3rd the volume of the Galaxy to have 10 times the firepower and several times the shielding and armour. -Akira's have cargo bays removed and replaced with torpedo launcher arrays, with their massive shuttle-bays repurposed for long-distance fighter carrying. Meanwhile: -Defiant is devised as a ship with the forward firepower of a Galaxy Class, but easily mass-produced and containing minimal scientific and engineering capability. Which can keep up with the fleet -Prometheus serves as a 'force multiplying ship carrier', inspired by using the Galaxy Class saucer section to spread out the Borg's tactical grid. Two Prometheus ships arrives with wings of Akiras and Defiants, and now you have 12 ships instead of 8. Etc. et
Just like there were several ship classes designed using the Galaxy class systems, like the Nebula and New Orleans, when Starfleet started ramping up for war there were several ships all being developed together. The Sovereign class was the biggest and would have been the center piece of a battlegroup and it took longer to build. The Defiant was first, then the Akira, Steamrunner, and Intrepid were started being worked on with the Sovereign probably only weeks behind them, but taking longer to be sure about the new systems. Once the designs for the Akira and friends were set those groups started in on the Prometheus. With all 6 classes being designed to work together.
The Defiant was the stop gap. They put all of their ready to go technology into something that could bring the fight, be rapidly constructed, and easily replaced. A swarm style attack ship. The others had specific roles to fill such as the Akira being a carrier and torpedo boat, then comes the Sovereign with as the centerpiece Battlecruiser. The Prometheus came after as the next evolution. The Intrepid is Starfleet continuing to push the edge of technology through the 2360s, integrating systems and design ideas that would counter the Borg, while also being the first to address subspace damage, pushing the bounds of warp drive technology and exploration.
The Sovereign always struck me as beautiful and wholly terrifying. Something you only have a small number of in the fleet, so you can send it when Starfleet means business and encourage de-escalation. Probably took a lot of resources to build compared to Akira, Defiant and other badass classes.
When you can replicate most things, use matter/anti matter reactions to generate power, resources fade rapidly into irrelevance. The only finite resource is the time it takes to replicate, time it takes to move pieces and assemble them.
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@@lokisgodhi Also the crew, both on the ships themselves and in the shipyards. There's a reason Starfleet tries to automate both their ships and shipyards. Replicators are a wonderful piece of technology but they can't (yet) replicate officers.
I liked the sovereign and the way star trek evolved. They went from a cold war with the klingons that occassionally had open fighting to a time of peace, where they had a utopian existence. They were snapped awake from that by Q introducing them to the Borg, and then by further Borg incursions that prepped them for the Dominion War. Every period of peace will eventually give way to war and how you handle that transition dictates how your culture and civilization moves forward. If you are able to prepare, which the Federation was able to despite the Borg shock, then you can keep your ideals and move forward. If you are completely shocked into it, like the US in WW2, your entire outlook changes and your civilization changes too, with the US in this example going from peaceful isolationists who didn't want to get involved in wars to over fifty years of militarization, military conflict, and nuclear posturing.
I always thought the Sovereign class and the Prometheus class were of contemporary designs in terms of construction, but the Sovereign was probably designed originally at the same time as the Akira and intrepid classes, essentially the rest of the so-called anti-Borg/ Anti-Dominion Ships where used as testbeds to figure out what worked and what didn’t work and that’s for example why the sovereign class has Isoliner chip backups In addition to the bio neural gel packs. Now is it a Betrayal of Gene Roddenberry’s vision , yes and no I think I don’t think it’s a betrayal of Gene’s original vision but I believe that somewhere between the end of the original show in the 1960s and the Filming of the original Star Trek movie Gene developed an even more grandiose idea of Starfleet and the Federation, The post-golden age Starfleet we see in Deep Space Nine and the Next Generation movies is a betrayal of the second idea of Starfleet whereas new trek is a betrayal of the first idea as well as the second idea.
There was once an episode, when all the power was flaking out, technology useless. Riker asked if they could scrounge up some rocks and sticks incase the other ship moved in. I've Heard ret-cons of TOS that said The Connies were primarily analog systems to thwart take over. Having simpler redundant systems like the isolinear chips makes sense because it's what we would do, what we've always done. Sometimes the backup is built-in to the design, sometimes it's added systems and equipment, but we always have some sort of backup.
The Sovereign class doesn't portray Roddenberry's original vision. In fact the Sovereign class could be considered a spiritual successor to the Constitution class both ships were hybrid war/science ships. This means that both ship classes could function as both a science ship, to explore the universe, but also has the most powerful tactical systems available, which meant it could also function as a powerful war ship. This also can serve as a deterrent to at least make alien gov'ts at least think twice before attacking the Federation, because while coming in peace during 1st contact; they'd also see how powerful they are. In fact the Sovereign should be the model for all future starships
"The Sovereign class doesn't portray Roddenberry's original vision" Correction "The Sovereign class doesn't *betray* Roddenberry's original vision" Also, agreed. 1) Roddenberry was a Navy man. His perspective is going to be from the that of a military. Not a warmonger, as "peaceniks" will say any acknowledgement of or overture toward military preparedness and doctrinal readiness to action will exclaim. 2) The Constitution was built during a time of heightened tensions between the Federation and Klingon Empire... and the Romulans. It was built to combat more so than most vessels of the time. The Sovereign likewise, but against the BORG, who could show up at nearly anytime because they can, and potentially or actually hostile nations like the Dominion, who might spring up from nearly any rock in the cosmos. 3) With ships like the Sovereign Class, Starfleet and the Federation was finally at least reaching around behind to remove that "kick me" sign so many other races and governments, like the Dominion, took as permission to assail an overtly unprepared and weak target. This does not mean the Federation is becoming more warlike. More that they are sick a tired of being periodically shoved into a corner ready toe be "raped and murdered" by some bad guy who shows up out of the shadows.
It's the old maxim you see in martial arts: you prepare to fight while hoping you never have to. Pacifism is often mistaken for "passivism" - I. E. That pacifism means avoiding fighting at all costs, even to the point of laying down & dying to prevent conflict. Pacifism is simply a preference for peace & a desire to uphold it - & sometimes that will require fighting to defend your lives & beliefs. The Federation in the TNG era seemed to lose some of that, likely due to peace with the Klingons & non-hostilities with the Romulans making them think they didn't have to maintain that vigilance any more. That arrogance was exemplified in "Q Who," where Q showed them just how unprepared they were for the dangers out in the galaxy. Far from the Sovereign & Defiant betraying Roddenberry's vision, I'd say that TNG itself portrayed a decay in humanity's vigilance as seen in TOS. It wasn't a case of choosing between being explorers and being warriors - it's that humanity would be capable of both at the same time. While obviously imperfect as an organisation in the 2260s, it also showed a Federation that wouldn't have been brought almost to its knees by self-inflicted complacency. Maxwell wasn't right, but he wasn't wrong either.
Roddenberry was a lefty so it isn't a surprise the world he created was a fairy tail Utopia. No money, 'we work to better ourselves', etc. etc. It wasn't realistic when Roddenberry created everything, isn't today and won't be in 250 years.
@@DocWolph Actually Roddenberry was Air Force. Then police. But yes. And the Constitution....I mean she launched in 2245 so technically that was before tensions with the Klingons and the renewal of hostilities with the Romulans. But Starfleet was well aware that they needed to be ready to defend themselves in deep space, away from the Federation.
Wouldn't the Defiant technically be "the moment Starfleet actually decided to start killing people"? It's unofficially a war ship, nothing more or less!
I think this ship came slightly after the other ships were field tested so they could build this one as Picards Pappy Daddy Pimp Hand. Decks 25/26 may have been empty to be filled in later and/or a massive two deck cargo hold.
during the fly-by shot, I've noticed that the underside of the saucer has what seems to be a two-deck bulge (and the ship has no other bulges), so that could easily be the source of the two deck difference. (24 decks if you only count by vertical separation (logical to use when describing height), but 26 decks if you count each and every separate deck(logical to use when dealing with logistical issues))
She was a fine lady and worthy of the name Enterprise. Its been 20 years since we last saw her. And to my mind, if she has been retired or lost, isn't it about time we had a new Enterprise? I would dearly love to say the F from STO is the official replacement but until its on a TV or movie screen, I can't. I know we ate getting a new show with the original Enterprise and I am looking forward to seeing it, but I want the stories to go forward rather than back. We need a new Enterprise on the small screen.
I believe the Enterprise-E is still in service and we will see her before Picard is done. I also predict Captain Worf is in command of the Big E since in 2399 or 2400, The Enterprise-E would be only 26-27 years old. Young for an advanced Federation Starship.
@wolfkang1 Agreed. Since Data's death, and since Worf technically was a command officer, and also with his experience being Strategic Operations Officer (AKA Second Officer) on Deep Space Nine, I always surmised that Worf became Picard's XO following Nemesis. It only makes sense for Worf to take over command of the Enterprise-E following Picard's promotion and assignment to the Verity and leading the Romulan Evacuation. In my eyes, Commander Madden was never the Enterprise XO since that scene was deleted.
The Sovereign class was a great vessel. It was also a great reuse of the Galaxy class saucer section with only minor modification to the look of it and turned 90 degrees
And also don't forget the Sovereign Class is not only a large and powerful Starship the thing is a freaking Battleship that is nearly 700 meters long and weighs over 3 million metric tonnes.
The Sovereign class was a child of necessity. The Federation was finding itself under increasing threats at this point, starting with the Borg, who the Enterprise E had to face almost immediately. It does feel strange seeing the Enterprise as a purebred warship, until you realize that everyone outside of the Federation (or, maybe just outside her own crew) viewed the original Enterprise (NCC-1701, no bloody A, B, C, or D,) specifically as a BATTLE CRUISER.
Grunt: "Sir, an enemy vessel is approaching." Kruge: "...yesss, a Federation Battle Cruiser." (From Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, as the Enterprise-01 approached the Genesis planet)
That title you have for this video made me laugh. When the Borg Anger Daddy is just awesome. My favorite aspect of the Sovereign Class is its profile. It just looks so much more aggressive and capable of combat than the D. My suspicion on its design is that it started out as a successor to the Excelsior, then with the discovery of the Borg, they upsized it and focused on its combat capabilities. Now to justify this guess, I will speculate that the successor was still largely in the blueprint stage before it was refashioned as the Sovereign.
Given that Cardassians built DS9 and despite all the fear the writers attempted to engender with "Obsidian Order" Cardassian technology is an absolute joke. I have no problem believing that the advanced technology that the Sovereign class was built with...produces as much or more power than a Cardassian space station. As for my opinion for Roddenberry's vision. He was an Idealist who was either ignorant, of, OR, more likely in denial concerning human nature. I personally prefer Starfleet with a more military bent. They can and should explore, do scientific research, etc. Hell the US Navy does a lot of that. As does the US Air Force.
Yeah I agree especially when you consider that Terok Nor was probably built in like the 2330s or 2340s. If three Galor class ships built in the 2360s were no match for a Galaxy class built in 2360 just imagine the difference in power between an old Cardassian station and the Federation’s flagship.
I really don't think, Roddenberry was ignorant. He hoped, that the humans would overcome their aggressive nature and become more peaceful in the future. But he considered, that not all Alien Life Forms would be so peacefull like the humans, so he put some defense weapons on the ships.
@@Anthyrion I would agree with that. I also think that it would be foolish to try to restrain Trek to "what Gene would've wanted". Plots have to advance, and the status quo produces stagnancy. Seeing the Federation trying to uphold the spirit of those ideals in the face of greater adversity is far more engaging and interesting than endless optimism in a utopia.
@@darklordofsword Right. And like Sisko always been quoted: "It's easy to be a saint in paradise." The Federation had to adapt. Especially with threats like the Borg and later the Dominion. And until the unwilling encounter with the Borg, it wasn't really nessecary to produce real warships. The status quo of the three most powerful empires (Federation, Klingon, Romulans) kept itself in balance and if there was a problem, it was mostly sure, that the Federation Diplomates can handle the situation. And if not, the Federation was good enough equipped to deal with threats.
I do like the war plots more, or more precisely, the cultural balance between the military nature of Starfleet and it’s often unaggressive role. I also want shows that are smart, not just flashy and bloomy.
The Sovereign class shows that Starfleet is starting to grow up. Every flower child says "Just give peace a chance." But every adult says "You give peace a chance. I'll cover you if it doesn't work out." The fact of the matter is that there is evil in the world--or universe, as the case may be. You don't fight evil with a strongly worded letter and you don't stop evil by asking about its daddy issues. You fight evil with weapons and you stop evil with bombs. On some level, Starfleet has always understood that--which is why their ships can throw bombs that yield more destructive force than a nuclear weapon. They can call themselves a "peace keeping and humanitarian armada" all they want but these are warships. They just happen to be warships that aren't very good at their job. Eventually, though, we all have to grow up. The brutal truth of reality forces us to. And whether the Sovereign class is a "betrayal" of Gene Roddenberry's vision is, unfortunately, irrelevant because the Sovereign class *is* the logical progression of a society surrounded by hostile alien forces. Maybe the Sovereign class is a betrayal of Gene Roddenberry's vision of the future--I can't really say. But, if so, Gene Roddenberry's vision was an equal betrayal of reality.
Isn't the point of writing fiction for it to be a betrayal of reality in some sense while maintaining enough reality that the reader can connect with it? I'm not saying that an all-peace all the time Federation would have been more entertaining than what was made, what I am saying though is that it is possible for canon Star Trek to be both a betrayal to Roddenberry's vision as well as a more realistic depiction of human civilization.
@@cappyricks942 Sure. But there’s a limit to the suspension of disbelief. And there is a baseline psychological appeal in all humans. On the most basic level, we all want to see the same things. If the Romulans launched a sneak attack on a Federation outpost and brutally murdered the entire population, we both expect to see certain things and desire to see certain things. If the Federation response consisted of forming an action committee and penning a strongly worded letter to the Romulans, we would be… disappointed. If the Federation wrote this letter in the language of the Tholians in order to avoid offending the Romulans with their earth language, we would scratch our heads. And if these tactics actually WORKED, the Romulans went home with a meek apology and everyone sang kumbaya together, no one would watch. Roddenberry’s “vision” for Star Trek was that Star Fleet is a “peacekeeping and humanitarian armada” meant to further the ideals of the Federation. This cannot be done without the capacity for war. Thus, the Sovereign class-it is either a continuation of this vision (protecting the Federation and furthering its values) or it betrays this vision because Roddenberry was staunchly against war of any kind… and thus Roddenberry’s vision makes no sense in a logical universe and who wants to watch that?
I always saw it as The Federation had a long peace bought by the Kirks of the original star trek, which led to a technological advancement so far above the various empires of the alpha quadrant that Federation Science and Exploration vessels could match dedicated Warships and best them, which led to a implicit arrogance in Starfleet/The Federation that they didn't need warships until Wolf 359 bitchslapped them out of it. Which would also explain why Diplomacy tended to work so well, as the new species etc saw Starfleets exploration ships and realized just what Starfleet could do if pushed, meaning they could follow through on their agreements. If you pay attention to Gene Roddenberry's backstory of Star Trek, well, all that co-operation between humans happened after the loss of most of humanity. It's basically a post-apocalyptic future, they are near post-scarcity because they don't have much of a population left, some of those major colonies Kirk etc visited don't qualify as major cities irl.
Seriously how good is First Contact? I’m all about “strange new worlds" idea, exploring and going places. First Contact is the antithesis of that but man is it good.
So here's the thing: The star trek movies suffer from a major issue of pacing: they tend to be paced like an episode of the show. That would be fine if they also shared the runtime of the show, or were paced like the multi-part stories. Thus we got plodding stories like The Motion Picture, with huge chunks of visual dead-air filler. Say what you want about the Kelvin timeline movies being "real trek", but they're infinitely more watchable *as movies* because they're actually *paced* like movies. First Contact is the one real exception among the original run of films, because it actually *is* paced like a pair of normal episodes edited together, just with a higher budget and better effects.
I think that the sovereign class being the last of the anti borg ships to be built makes sense, all the issues are worked out and the flagships have the best technology. It also probably fits best continuity wise.
Just had this video recommended. I think it added more to the universe. Really many beings had forgotten that the Federation had multiple members who had proud warrior traditions but where willing choosing to be peaceful. The Borg and Cardassian’s where beginning to remind many that occasionally actions are going to be needed. The Dominion War showed many that occasionally you must fight because the opponents refuse to be civil. The Borg where the wake-up call the Federation needed because they where coming either way and Q just choose to give them a heads up.
would be so cool to see how the Enterprise-E would’ve fared in the delta quadrant, Voyager definitely could’ve benefitted greatly with those quantum torpedos. The Krenim for example could’ve been dealt with a lot easier and faster
i always interpreted 'holodecks' were starfleet property, while 'holosuites' to be smaller and privately owned or rented (a suite being: a set of rooms designated for one person's or family's use or for a particular purpose.) otherwise you could argue cultural/coloquial preference rather than material differences
The Sovereign Class was always my favorite, in looks and capability. A ship meant to do it all well above and beyond all others. It hits home as a homage to classic Starfleet ships, while giving it a new cutting edge appeal. This is the ship you send in when making an enterance for diplomatic negotiations, scientific inquiry, or when some pesky threat like the Borg or Dominion need a serious beat down to be put back in their place.
*Error:* Warp does *not damage regular subspace,* if it did then after millions of years of warp capable civilisations there would be no subspace left. It was to allow travel in the Hekaras corridor and similar regions (with tetryon radiation) without triggering any effects. That would be a strategically useful ability, especially if encountering similar instabilities during exploration where no rescue ship would know to look if you got in trouble and you couldn't send subspace messages if you triggered a subspace collapse. And it would also be useful within the Federation for taking a shortcut or fighting ships in _that particular corridor,_ especially for preventing standard warp drive ships from doing further damage in that area. Starfleet was testing the Intrepid class's variable geometry nacelles and the Sovereign class's warp core, that didn't _damage subspace in regions that were susceptible._ Starfleet were trialing both concepts, the Sovereign's one was considered better, lack of external moving parts probably helped. And that made retrofitting to older ships a possiblity during _minor refits_ by just replacing the warp core.
Love the sovereign class. Still a ship of peace but can kick serious ass if need be. The excelsior class is another one my favorites. Thank you for the video.
I enjoyed the sickbay conversation. How the Prometheus had been "the most advanced", yet it more closely mirrors the Intrepid's... Funny possibility - perhaps the Captain or CMO has an option to specify how they want certain things during the construction of the ship? And in turn, perhaps Beverly or Jean-Luc preferred the older-fashioned look?
It would make sense in universe that sickbay (or at least one sickbay) may be modular. Especially if you have to quarantine it, it would make it easier to remove the module while maintaining the quarantine. That would get the ship back in service quickly.
It might be that it has Prometheus Tech but a Intrepid look. Both the Sovereign and Intrepid still daylight as science / exploration so the get the sickbay that designers think a civilian would like to be treated in but so no matter what is under the surface that is the look but the Prometheus gets whatever look it needs to heal patients quicker and get them back in to battle.
Sorry guys, there's literally no in-universe explanation to make it make sense. They reused Voyagers sick bay set because re-using and re-dressibg sets is practically franchise tradition, and Robert Picardo was basically the second most popular actor on Voyager, so they wanted to have him cameo, just like he had on DS9 playing Zimmerman.
@@dalek12002 or it could be that we're a bunch of nerds obsessing over Continuity that nobody working on the project thought ANYONE would ever worry about.
That ship is just beautiful. And awesome! And I don't think it betrays anything. Roddenberry's vision was great, but it couldn't last. And every once in a while, a bully comes your way. No matter what.
Listen guys, even Roddenbury’s vision allowed for phasers (and those nifty, upgraded Andorrian ones) and photo torpedos so…. I don’t see it a direct violation of his vision. It’s more like…. we’re putting contact lenses in instead of eye-glasses to help… Clarify what he was seeing.
I really liked the Sovereign, personally. It was big, sleek and could lay down some serious hurt. It went toe-to-toe with Shinzon's flying Starbase in Nemesis and managed to survive (mostly). The thing is a hoss.
The Scimitar came out of that fight worse off. The Big E's saucer section embedded itself halfway in its hull at the cost of only the first few forward compartments.
Picard and Discovery I haven’t watched yet. I Intend to watch them just haven’t gotten around to it yet. I hope I can at least enjoy them. I remember Enterprise being a little of a tough watch at times as well.
@@brandonbowden1262 Picard is okay, the reused some assets from Disco (which makes no sense cause 23c), have some weird pacing at times and some of the characters are... unnecessary at best. Also there is one really disappointing CGI battle. But it's a good overall Story and the TNG actors do a stellar job. DIscovery is a very forced mess, in a universe that fits nowhere in Canon and Science is more a label to look cool in that show than something they follow. Examples: They travel through subspace with a magic mushroom drive and their ship has the elevator space of the Kelvin ships. It's a mess. Anson Mount as Pike was decent there and they plan to run a series on him so we'll see. All of that said Discovery is clearly not prime timeline, so it really does not destroy much
I agree you can eliminate every “need” a human has. I do not believe you would ever eliminate “everyone’s” desire for more. More everything. There will always be those that crave power for no other reason than to possess it. In the Gene Roddenberry vision people haven’t just had all their needs met they have stopped being humans.
“A battle bridge that no one uses” is Picard’s M. O. Let’s take those children into battle! Engage! (I know that’s an enterprise D reference but he’d be the same if they had kids on the E)
Honestly, it really doesn't make much sense to go through the whole saucer separation sequence every time you need to go into combat and then leave the saucer behind as a sitting duck because no one thought "hey, let's put even a small warp drive on this thing" Really, a failed design that I don't fault Picard for not using more.
@@Doctors_TARDIS fair point. But surely given that the warp engines are on the secondary hull, you’d use them to leave the saucer somewhere safe far away then warp to the combat area wouldn’t you? The long range sensors give plenty of warning that danger is nearby so they’d have plenty of time to separate the civilians and warp into danger using the secondary hull. Granted, it wouldn’t help if a Romulan warbird just randomly decloaked, and arguably it wasn’t sensible to have civilians on board a starship that Starfleet knew may well be going into combat - but that’s one of the issues with the “golden age” in the 2350s-2360s. Thank goodness the Borg came along 😂 shook some sense into everyone!
@@cha02psc Even if you had the perfect situation where you knew you were going into combat and could do all that ahead of time, that's a massive amount of time and effort you have to dedicate to the procedure. And like you said, long range sensors are a thing, so your enemy would likely know about the saucer since it can't get away. It was an awful idea to begin with.
I think most of the vessels built post Wolf 359 were designed to take on the Borg. You look at the armament and it reflects that. The Sovereign much like the Galaxy class was designed to be a command vessel. In the first design with the torpedo launchers only facing forward I think it was designed as a sit in the back to give orders or to fly head long at a Borg cube guns blazing. The second model reflected what we saw from the Dominion in that while one Borg cube is dangerous a fleet of Dominion vessels are more dangerous and they are a hell of a lot more maneuverable so the design changed to fix that hence more weapons facing different directions. I feel this was a logical end to what the Golden era of Starfleet would have designed something with some teeth and if you had a good enough crew you didn't want to face down a Sovereign by yourself.
But wait wait, where did you hear or read that the Sovereign Class only had forward facing torpedo launchers? It’s always had both a forward and rear launcher (maybe the rear one could only fire photon torpedos - kinda like the defiant).
This ship is absolutely a betrayal of Roddenberry's dream. And for that, I say... so much the better. Gene was great for creating Trek, but his hard rule against conflict would have been the death knell of the franchise - you can't write compelling stories in paradise. That said, The Sovereign is, and continues to be, my favorite canon Trek ship of all time. She's beauty, she's grace, she'll punch you in the face. The Sovereign is the _epitome_ of Starfleet design - no weak neck, well-protected and durable nacelle pylons, _wonderful_ phaser coverage, a heavy-hitting forward armament profile with a relatively minimal forward _targeting_ profile... and you've got yourself the mother of all battleships. That can still capably explore deep space. And if it finds something big and scary and hostile out there? Well, that thing picked the wrong day to be evil.
Foreword: Sorry about the semi-novel. I started typing and just kinda kept going... The thing about Roddenberry's dream is just that, it is a dream. It is idealized, it is beautiful, but it doesn't fit well into reality. There are a couple of great quotes from season 4 of The Expanse. One is from Amos; "The thing about civilization is it keeps you civil. Get rid of one and you can't count on the other." The other is from Murtry; "People like you always forget, civilization has a lag time. Like light delay. You come out here, and you think because you're civilized, civilization comes with you. You're just walking in the footsteps of history. The ancient frontier. Those post offices, and railroads, and jails, cost thousands of lives to build. This is no different. I am the kind of man the frontier needs. You're the kind that comes after my work is done. You should have stayed at home .. 'til I built a post office." The reason I bring them up is both are about civilization. As long as civilization exists, and people want to act civil, then civil society can function. But when you get out onto the "frontier", civilization breaks down and it becomes a matter of carrying a stick big enough to make the price of mischief more expensive than the gains. The early years of Star Trek were a dream world where everything was relatively civilized. The few things that weren't were all weak enough to be cowed into submission and playing along. But in the real world, if someone doesn't agree with your civilized culture and wants to take your resources, if you do not maintain the strength to fight them, given enough time they will become strong enough to take it from you. We are seeing this very thing right now with the U.S. vs China. China generally doesn't say it out loud, but they very much want to be absolute alpha dog. The U.S. has ignored them for 20 years and now they are building up a military that, while not necessarily strong enough to defeat the U.S., IS strong enough to make it a VERY painful victory for the U.S. Don't get me wrong. I love the beautiful dream of early Star Trek, and I am not a big fan of the purely militaristic path that Star Fleet takes. But I like the acknowledgement that the world isn't perfect. I don't remember where it was, but I think there was a line somewhere in the Sovereign era films where Picard is nostalgic, and talks about how he missed the days when they were just explorers. I think it would be cool if they could move the Star Trek universe back to a more balanced position where you had pure civilian chips, general purpose exploration ships, and clearly military vessels, as an acknowledgement that peace is better, but conflict can't always be avoided and needs to be prepared for. It is like Disney vs an R rated movie. In Disney the villain is always vanquished, the hero always wins, and everyone lives happily ever after. But I hit a point on Netflix & Prime where all of the action/adventure movies I watched ended with humanity completely destroyed. Most entertainment seems to be binary, either one or the other. I like the ones where the good guys win in the end, but it also shows that things aren't all rainbows and hearts after a war because even when you win you still lose. It is just that you don't lose as much by winning as if you had lost or surrendered. I think Harry Potter did a bit of this at the end of the series. I would like to see more of it. Sorry for rambling and wandering off on a tangent.
The Sovereign was not just the further betrayal of Roddenberry's dream, but all the ships of that era never reach the sense of sweeping grandeur of the Galexy. It's big, powerful, and also astheticly pleasing. The Sovereign departs very heavily in even hull texture and colour from everything before it in such a sudden way you can hear and audible clunk when you first see it.
I often dreamed of seeing the military side of Starfleet. We know that they have ground forces based on anecdotes about the Cardassian wars so they must have landing ships, troop carriers, support ships which means they probably also have destroyers, cruisers, etc... no way they're breaking off a Constitution class from diplomatic or scientific duties for that stuff.
In DS9 they went to war using only your standard ships along with the Defiant. There didn't appear to be any destroyers, or battleships or anything like that. Ground forces seemed to be simply officers from those ships too, nothing like what we see in today's military with specialized roles such as the Marines, Navy, Army, etc.
The Soverign class is a simple message to the galaxy: the Federation is idealistic, not foolish. The Federation wants to be the noble nice guys but Starfleet is fully prepared if other powers violently disagree with them. Does it betray Gene's vision? Yes, but it also honors it in a way. The world doesn't agree with you but you're still trying, and that really means something. Just imagine a mirror-verse Terran Empire version of the Soverign, assuming the same tech level. Shinzon would not have stood a chance, but that would have been the real betrayal of the dream.
Before being so quick to assume that the idea of war readiness betrays Gene's notion of a peace-loving idealistic society, let me remind you he was a bomber pilot in WW2, and an officer on the LAPD.
On top of that, the Constitution, Constitution Refit, and Excelsior were shining silver _gods_ of their eras. Remember, the Federation of Kirk's time only stayed coherent through military might. While primarily exploration ships, they also had to constantly put out brushfires in the form of local rivalries or old grudges flaring up. Otherwise, those brushfires would turn into full blown wildfires in the form of civil war. Timothy Zahn's _Hand of Thrawn_ duology in the Star Wars Expanded Universe provides a good example of what the early Federation was like, and what the 2360s Federation was _still_ like near its borders.
My headcanon on the deck thing. In the TNG/Dr Who crossover comic Assimilation², the TNG crew and the Doctor teams up against a Cyberman/Borg alliance. When they were done the Doctor gave Starfleet some timelord tech. The Sovereign is bigger on the inside. 24 decks is external configuration and 26 is the internal configuration.
Damn, Trek ships in battle peaked with First Contact. The use of models, practical effects, and CGI looks phenomenal. Nothing they're doing currently looks as good.
I don't think anyone can deny that the Sovereign is one of the sexiest starship designs, not just in Star Trek, but in science fiction in general. I can't help but love this ship.
i'd say that the akira class was starfleet distilling all their current-tech into one vessel, the prometheus was a testbed and the soverign was an upscaled result of the usage/creation of both (if you can't be certain of a system just put 2-3-8 of them on a ship with a bigger powerplant to support it).
Its really smart to have full sets of both tech. The bio stuff for the general speed and a way to isolate it from a full backup system made on isolinesr chips only.
I would say, an Emergency Bridge is always a good idea to have. Rerouting control to the engineroom normaly takes time and as we saw in one Episode of Star Trek ENT and in Star Wars VI, the destruction of the commandcenter paralises a ship and makes it inoperable, for quite some time, while the ship is still in a crisis-situation. The only problem with the concept is, that as far as we've seen it in Star Trek TNG, the Battlebridge is normally unmanned, until needed. It would make sense, to station personal their, everytime, the ship goes to Red Alert, so in case, the main bridge got destroyed, the replacement-bridgecrew can take over immediatly. (Sorry for the mistakes, English is not my native language)
There should be a watch officer there even durning normal running, most modern warships (and historic) have crew stationed at every control point in the ship (usually 2-4 of them)
The Sovereign was basically the culmination of stuff we saw in the Intrepid, Akira, and Defiant classes as well as testing things for Prometheus. And since we know Kirk era ships(particularly the Connie class) were definitely capable of beating ass when called for, the Sovereign is a spiritual successor to that era Starfleet(hell she was built at the San Francisco fleet yards and not Utopia Planitia)
I think the Intrepid was in the design phase before the Borg, the nacelles added when Starfleet discovered Warp travel could damage subspace. The Defiant came in as a testbed warship, because of the Borg. The Sovereign came in at this point as the “Kitchen Sink Battleship”, something that could throw everything including the kitchen sink at whatever. The other Borg busters were closer to ships already on the drawing board with no real weight behind them until the Borg arrived. Then the Prometheus comes in. Back to the Kitchen Sink Battleship, I think it makes sense since the Sovereign has everything. It’s release slowed down as Starfleet kept adding capabilities to it throughout its production, until it finally started off the assembly line in a working fashion. Some of it’s capabilities even paired back so that large portions of it didn’t need to installed Tuesday. For the decks issue, some decks are much taller than others and considered only their top decks in numbering even if they are three decks tall. The discrepancy could come down to the entrance of the bottom deck being on deck 24 even if it expands three decks, if there aren’t clear levels in between. Fyi I was on an Aircraft Carrier, and worked in some of those lower decks.
years ago i loved playing startrek armada 2, was a great game for the time, and one outfit did a complete conversion to babylon 5, and that was also wonderful, though it did occasionally dc and send you to desktop, but the b5 models and sounds were so good it was fun to play anyways.
Minor point, when three Sovereign class entered service, it was before voyager reported the problems in their bioneural gel packs. Every problem you listed was encountered in a different quadrant.
My theory with the deck numbering is that they skip a few decks in the numbering for the sake of more superstitious member worlds, like how old buildings don't have a floor 13. The idea being they don't want to discourage people from those worlds from serving
8:34 and here I thought it was holodecks, because they were huge spaces upon ships, and DS9s holosuites were smaller more efficient equivalent that you could squish more of within same space so you can charge more people at once....
I always felt the holosuite was more of a personal holodeck. Where it would be for a handful of people versus a large group. With the sovereign class having the suite version could lean towards it having a more powerful system for power to where it could power multiple smaller hologram emitters. Instead of having to go to a movie theater for example you could have your own private television for a modern-day example. I also feel that it was built around the same time as intrepid and put into service at the same time because of the similarities in internal design language. With the Prometheus being a test vessel with the latest and greatest technology not quite ready for prime time. List of Prometheus you have the simplified excelsior and Enterprise refit bridge module. With the sovereign class you have a more military-centered bridge for a major warship lifting intrepid you have one designed for exploration and battle but with a lowered crew compliment. Intrepid class is probably more automated whereas the sovereign requires more Hands-On work to keep it going just because of how much more powerful it is which would be a great weakness to have.
I think the Sovereign class was a design they were going to make long term, but the Akira came first as a sort of powerful stopgap measure. Something that can take and give a beating but also is quicker and cheaper to make than a full on battleship. We see this sort of thing happen IRL. Back in WW2, after France fell, the US built the M3 Lee tank as a stopgap design while they design, test and build the M4 Sherman. As a tank, the M3 was fully functional, liked by its crews and pretty damn effective for the time while using elements the US could already produce. You also see this in something like the Independence-class Light Carrier, which was a refit of a number of Cleveland-class light cruiser hulls to fill a need for new carriers that wouldn't be ready until 1944-ish. This sort of thing would also allow for new systems to be tested on stop gap ships, allow for design updates and mid-construction refits to ensure that the Sovereign-class starship would truly rule the space of the 24th century with the most powerful tech Starfleet can produce.
Liked the E. It shows that Starfleet was finally learning that space wasnt nice and the borders of hostile powers were getting closer everyday. I've also kind of figured they had learned that tactical systems need to have equal space to science systems or just have ships dedicated either to Tactical or Research.
I saw a Star Trek Truth or Myth video on the History and construction of the Sovereign Class and it said that Starfleet began development of the class just after the development and construction of the Defiant Class with help from Starfleet veteran Captain Montgomery 'Scotty' Scott and also apparently there was like some kind of race in the development and construction of the Intrepid Class where the Intrepid Class can fold up it's warp pylons when it goes to warp while the warp pylons of the Sovereign Class are in a fixed position and at an angle like the warp engine pylons of the Constitution class and like the Intrepid Class the Sovereign Class was built with bioneural circuitry and the largest warp core ever installed on a Federation Starship which was designed and built by Dr. Leah Brahms the same lady who designed the warp core of the Galaxy Class and don't forget the Intrepid Class has the same systems as the Sovereign Class and almost identical weapon systems of the Defiant Class minus the phaser cannons.
Compared to the Akira, steam runner, sabre etc which we see get obliterated by enemy vessels many times this ship was basically destroyed twice (by the Borg from the inside and the Remans later on) and still kept in service because it was such a beast. A solid change from the golden era design of ships that can be 1 shot' as soon as the shields are down
So I ran into an interesting rumour mill item on one of the Trek forums back in '04 or '05 (It might have been Trekbbs, or another similar site). It delved into the weeds about how the Sovereign Class was conceived, prototyped, and built in as little or less time than other ships of that generation (Intrepid, Saber, Akira, etc.) The rumour was that the Sovereign is actually a very old design (circa 2200s), which was kept active and constantly updated and refined with the latest technologies as they were developed. The design was never* prototyped or put into production, just kept active in the event that the Federation needed a heavy warship design in a hurry. Evidence to support this rumour revolved around certain design themes, including how the Nacelles were high-mounted and long, and the secondary hull was long and narrow. These characteristics are more typical of ships from the 2240s (original constitution) to the 2280s (original Excelsior). More modern designs, starting with the Ambassador class, tended to have shorter, lower-mounted nacelles, and have shorter, fatter secondary hulls. Obviously they didn't stick with the exact same spaceframe design. The original would likely have been much smaller and more rudimentary. Think a beefed up constitution class with little/no neck pylon and shorter nacelle pylons, maybe in the 350-400 meter range in length. But rather than doing a whole new spaceframe design for every technical improvement or threat change, the original design was instead altered, sometimes drastically, to adapt to the current realities. This eventually brought us to the big, sleek warship we got to see on the big screen. *An argument I put fourth was that this is may have been how the Excelsior class came into being, and that the Sovereign class is just what the Excelsior class would have looked like had it had another 65 years to ferment on the drawing board. Transwarp was the latest technology available, and they didn't have an in-service design that could handle the rigors of testing such a technological leap. They weren't big enough, powerful enough, robust enough, etc. Rather than designing a whole new ship, & given the political tensions between the Federation and the Klingons in the decades prior to the destruction of Praxis, it's conceivable that the Federation selected this design to both test transwarp technology and to build a prototype of their now 30-40+ year old heavy warship design. Whether or not transwarp was a success is up for debate (I think it was, hence new warpscale in TNG), but the Excelsior was arguably a huge success. There would have been a time where the routine design updates were actively prototyped and integrated into the design, which is why we had significant alterations to the original design in the likes of the Enterprise B. But the destruction of Praxis ended the Klingon threat, and prototyping these alterations every time there was a design update became a significant drain on resources. So a class standard very similar to the original Excelsior design was established, and any future design updates to the Excelsior were regulated back to the drawing board. These drawing board updates would continue for another 65 years or so, leading to the sovereign class we see in the 2370s.
On the Galaxy class, the antimatter storage pods were stored on the very bottom level of the ship to aid in the fast ejection of them in case of a breach emergency. With that in mind, perhaps decks 25/26 were designed in such a way where they qualified as decks for the purpose of tactical engagements, but were never designed to be used by crew as work/habitable space, and were instead storage areas for the antimatter/matter storage for the ship? I can imagine that with an increased requirement for extra antimatter (munitions medium for torpedos) that there would need to be more space given over to antimatter storage than the Galaxy class equivilant.
2:30 normally I skip through it, but...this is a great and well targetted promotion. It as some spore vibes too (a game I loved and I think despirately needs a 2022+ version).
I think your point about the holosuite/deck is actually a on screen blooper, Picard enters a holo suite, the Borg force their way thru a door marked Holo-deck
I'm a Galaxy Class Fanboy, I grew up watching TNG from the beginning and adore it. That said, I think the Sovereign is the most well balanced design in Canon that the franchise has ever had. It's Big but not obnoxious large, it's agile for her size, it packs armor and armament for war, and just looks intimidating. But even with all that, the ship's still comfortable for the crew, has similar if scaled down scientific and medical capabilities of the Galaxy, and is capable of conferences and diplomatic missions. The Halo design of the Golden Era of Star Trek, and one that hasn't been topped yet in modern Trek.
The ship was the culmination of inevitability. War will always exist, so it's suicidal not to have a force capable of fighting, and more importantly, equipped to win. As to Roddenberry's vision, Roddenberry was an idealist. We don't live in utopia, and we never will. He has my respect for creating what we debate, but that doesn't mean I agree with him. After all, the best episode of TOS (The Balance of Terror, fight me) is a war episode.
I never could actually find the aft torpedo launchers at the model kit for the E. But its good to see more than one Sovereign class ships in seasons 2 and 3 of Picard
My personal canon here (that's nowhere suggested mind) is that the Sovereign was conceived as a Galaxy class successor given it was so big. But not particularly far along. Probably moreso as a 'design blueprint' as the next big ship. As technology advanced in turn the design was upgraded; since it hadn't really gotten into anything beyond 'proof of concept' it was simple to add in new technology since the ship hadn't bene fully designed so no refitting was needed/it hadn't started being built. Also one could call it an (early) starfleet response to things like the Vor'Cha and D'Deridex, which could (theoretically) outgun and outsize a Galaxy. So it's a design worked on 'to have one available' and a thought experiment. Lots of nations have 'proof of concept' designs for situations they never expect to come up just to show off if anyone asks. So the crash program of technological development in turn finds it a fairly good testbed, since the ship is so big that it can be used o fit new things with a greater margin of error. The ship is put through a crash course to prototype it and get it launched (while not canon, Bridge Commander showcases this and I like the idea). Mlutiples of the ship are being produced in paralell rather than waiting for the prototype to have all the bugs worked out (it's hurriedly launched in the brief Klingon/Federation War and accelerated to be in active service as the Dominion War starts). The ship is big, powerful (probably moreso than almost anything else of the era in the Alpha/Beta Quadrants) but has major teething issues. That, the time ti takes to build them, and the lack of shipyards that can produce ships of it's size (most of which are probably pumping out Galaxy combat variants) means not a lot are made before the end of the war, those that are tend to do priority assignments (in the novels/comics they do 'show the flag, diplomacy, etc') and stay off the front lines. After teh war is over, no one's really sure waht Starfleet's new design philsophy is beyond 'far better armred' but smaller ships are much more effective thanks to advances in technology, and there's no real -need- to build somehthing so huge beyond 'show the flag'. So while the ship is buil, it never has the huge numbers like the Galaxy and isn't as ubiqitous as the 'big ship of the line' of the era.
I feel like the Sovieregn is more of a throw back to the TOS era of doing things. Like TNG era the Federation will more likely talk talk talk, give ground, TALK then fight if need. While TOS, and post TNG, is more... Talk Talk, give warning, Talk, KEEP GOING AND I END YOU threat, Talk, Murder, type of deal. Either way both are Genes vision one is more will to defend itself if needed.
I feel like the sovereign was originally a concept for a Galaxy successor; bigger, faster, even more power; during the golden age, but as new threats emerged the design was updated for battle, and every time they made a new defense tech they tacked it onto the Sovereign to give that stupid strong power core a run for its money. So it being a huge cruiser was always the design, unlike the defiant as an escort, the or the Intrepid as a light cruiser. Or even the prometheus which was just lemon juice of a warship. I feel like they had the basic idea down sooner, but they kept adding more new tech to make it even more capable, and just when they got it they added something else. The engineers I’m sure had fun. Might also explain why some decks might be Jeffries tubes. Lots of equipment to adjust? But it paid off, they produced a design equal to a warship twice it’s size, at half the crew, and probably better defense systems.
Considering Scotty himself worked on the thing (at least according to beta canon) oh you can bet your ass the man had fun. He might have been in the twilight of his life, but if he was going to go it would be with a last singular gift to the federation; a ship worthy of the name Enterprise.
The battles in TOS were like submarine duels. They were still military engagements. The vision isn't undermined by creating a "warship" because it was always people and their choices that defined humanity's future.
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I'll just use this video to gripe about fleet command. Too complicated. I mean I'm still nowhere near completing Timelines, but FC was a whole other level of frustration for me. To make matters worse, last time I reinstalled the game, all my ships were gone. I didn't have many or anything truly remarkable, but when I came back, not even the initial basic ship given was AWOL. Fuck that.
I like Fleet Command, on paper. But with my real life commitments , I am basically hobbled to what can otherwise be an excellent game.
@@Saint_nobody I liked it to the extent I am able to play but I know it’s not for everyone
Played it for 2 years gave it a good go but it keeps adding more and more junk and hasn't fixed any of the big bugs that where around since launch. They need to stop adding stuff each month and focus on the actually PVP side of the game that is tipped to the whales who are spending thousands each month just to bully everyone else
@@adammiller4445 - That's not a bug. It's a feature.
The class name says it all, "Sovereign", it is the supreme ruler, the ultimate power, allies gaze upon it with awe and enemies tremble before it. It is the 'find out' part of Starfleet's new 'fuck around and find out' policy.
Starfleet....is a promise.
A promise that we've gotten so GD good at killing sh!t, that we've went from'A flying hotel's to The E, which is pretty much METAL GEAR: REX in space. We PROMISE, If you play stupid games with us, you WILL win a stupid prize!
Under normal circumstances Starfleet is dedicated to the expansion of knowledge. In times of crisis and war however, they very much take after their ancestors, the U.S. Navy. The Borg fucked around and then the Sovereign class was created and they found out real quick.
The KDF was super happy, when the federation stared ramping up militarily
Not just can they turn rocks into replicators, they also can design such systems to turn back into rocks at the slightest connection with enemy weapons.
Rocks area fundamental part of starfleet design.
Made of Explodium
@@Namelesswhirl Nono that's the oberth's hull.
Well done sir
I knew there was a reason for rocks coming flying back out of the consoles during combat
The Sovereign is the best ship in looks, hands down. The flowing lines of the Galaxy without being so bulbous, but not too slimmed down like the Intrepid, while returning to the long nacelle format we had in the TOS and TMP eras that made OG and Refit Conny amazing. Discrepancies in descriptions are a Trek staple and I'm more than happy to blame the writers for that rather than scrape together an in-universe explanation for things like a difference in the number of decks.
As far as her purpose, had we gotten to see her in a TV series I'm sure we would have seen more of her scientific side, but as the movies are generally more action focused that's the side we were forced to see. The Dominion War was also actively happening so it makes sense to be a bit more on a war footing when we see her. Perhaps after Nemesis, when the Dominion War is over and that crisis is concluded and the Enterprise repaired, she would have gone out to resume duties as Federation flagship and do peaceful exploration, possibly using the data Voyager had recently brought back.
As cool as Sovereign is, Galaxy can't be matched
Interesting back screen information.
The designer of the Galaxy Class had planned the ship to look like panther paw leaping to attack.
With the Warp Nacelles being shorter on the Back. To reflect the miniaturization of technology between The Motion Picture and The Next Generation. But Gene Roddenberry walked up and added that little extension on the back. Because he was to used to seeing the Large impressive looking Warp Necelles on Federation Starships. So in a way the Galaxy Class was his last Starship revision before he got to old and sick to be hands on with anything Star Trek..
True. Blame the writers and VFX people. The poor Defiant gets argued over for hours. As much as I love this stuff, it's still fiction
I would think Enterprise E was fit out as a warship it was definitely refitted as a warship between 1st contact & Nemesis. Remember Picard's line "does anyone remember when we were explorers." A hint that they had become a military fleet. At least that's my take on it.
The writers forgot that Galaxy-class starships are supposed to separate from their saucer section before going into heavy combat. The saucer was dead weight and was only needed on long voyages because it had most of the ship's science labs and living space. The fighting half of the _Enterprise,_ or any other ship in her class, was the engineering section. Without the saucer, the _Enterprise_ was a speedy fighting machine that could overpower just about anything.
"Walk soft but carry a big stick" ships like the sovereign, Akira, prometheous, and defiant are essential to Roddenberry and his vision. An idyllic future of cooperation and exploration is fantastic and should be the goal of every civilization. However freedom isn't free and not everyone is going to share those ideas. There has to be that hard line in the sand, the shield and sword to keep the bad guys at bay. Peace and prosperity through strength is a pivotal aspect to keep your people free and keep them on the path of peace. Just because you have a massive fuck off ship doesn't make you the bad guys , it makes the bad guys think twice before they test that assumption at their earliest possible convenience.
Aye, like 2 Klingon sisters with a TOS era bird of prey going up against a Galaxy class from TNG era, it kind of shows you how weaken Golden age Trek's Federation became
Precisely
No way would they be able to pull that against an Akira or sovereign from ds9 era
Absolutely, but I still maintain that the E-D died to a manufacturing flaw in the Enterprise specifically, not because the Galaxy was weak.
I'm going to go with it was week, think about how fast the u.s.s. venture went down when it went up against a truly dedicated military power. Whether it was over confidence, arrogance or complete equipment failure the lesson was learned. Starfleet and their flagship class was totally outclassed
The sovereign was a beautiful ship. Even Scotty would've been impressed
Woulda been? Scotty was probably still alive when the big -E launched.
In fact now I am fan theorizing that Starfleet even consulted him, bringing in every competent engineer they can find to quickly design a ship so revolutionarily different from the TNG Nebula/Galaxy class ships. Even Prometheus still had the TNG-era look.
In the books he worked on the thing so you better believe he was impressed.
I think he would have hated some things about it like the bioneural gel. Especially after his comment about the the Excelsior " The more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stop it up."
I think that in a way she is the spiritual successor of the constitution.
Consider in the day of kirk, starfleet was more militaristic and the constitution was the most powerful starfleet ship in the day.
The galaxy class represented aspiration during a golden age but also proved to be vulnerable.
True dominion war upgrades would make them a force to be reckoned with but you couldn't see someone doing to the sovereign what the jemhadar did to the uss odyssey. Scimitar an exception since it was built as a Predator.
Considering the Sovereign was a cruiser that could be used for scientific and diplomatic missions, and it could also spank any of the Federation's neighbors if they got too rowdy, I'd say that the Sovereign has circled back to what the TOS Constitution was.
Yup, the Connie was designated a battlecruiser by the klinks, which is pretty much the highest respect they could pay her (ST:III "Sir! Federation Battlecruiser approaching!")
Cardassians would use this argument to point out from their perspective, the Federation only always flew around giant murder machines with a couple labs jammed in the middle of them so they can "claim" to be on "scientific missions".
What kind of scientific mission requires the need for a way to kill at least 50 billlion people on on the surface on a planet?
I mean, if I were Cardassian, I'd say that.
@@cerebrix If I were the Federation, my reply would be "Has the Obsidian Order not gotten you copies of our high-profile mission logs? Our ships keep running into hostile Space Gods and ancient Doomsday Weapons. Just be glad we're taking care of those for everyone."
@@dajonaneisnoah8714 it does lead one to wonder logically: are the missions of the few main ships shown in the various series a result of them being extraordinarily “lucky” or are there just so many new lifeforms of a higher order they keep running into, that Star fleet needs to keep a huge database to keep track of them all?
@@strictnonconformist7369 in TOS I always assumed it was because they were the tip of the exploration spear. True deep space exploration, and when you know less about where you are you meet a lot more....newness.
TNG in the earlier days was broadly similar, but there seems to be a marked turn inward from the Federation and Starfleet towards the end of TNG. Probably due to the Borg showing them just how dangerous it gets that far out; and better to prepare the rear for any coming threat from the frontline.
DS9...well they're on a mission to go no bloody place.
Voyager...I genuinely do not like Voy so while I have watched some of it, I've missed lots. But my takeaway again is that what lies beyond known space tends to be big, mean, and unfriendly in the extreme.
So combine all of that with the fact that the universe as a whole is incomprehensibly huge, and old and well you will run across all sorts of very big unfriendly things, and if you're the one going to new places you're more likely to be the ones to meet them.
At least that's my take on it.
I had the opposite take on holodecks and suites:
-HoloDECKs were larger and intended for a wide variety of tasks including large groups of people at once, and had significant vertical capacity spanning 2-3 decks.
-HoloSUITEs were smaller, as we see Quarks are quite small, only filling a room about the size as a one-story cargo bay.
This indicates that instead of the expansive holodecks on a Galaxy Class, the Sovereign had suites to save space.
The Galaxy class, IIRC, had different sized holodecks. Hence, a small one could serve a single user but a group would need a larger one as there are limits to what the the technology can do to fool occupants.
@@qdllc I figured holodecks would be for more tactical uses, simulating official stuff, etc. HoloSuites for recreation & more personal nature. Also HoloSuites would be smaller. That way if you needed minimal power usage in an emergency situation you could still have a smaller suite operate for tactical simulations, etc without endangering the whole ship from too much power consumption.
I also have issue with people thinking “suite” = larger. We see several times on DS9 that they are quite small…which makes sense for Quark’s bar. It’s also a scale issue. If you examine the promenade, it’s 1/4 to 1/3 the ring of the station (match the window type). There is no way the station is near the volume of a Galaxy class ship, but they frequently portray the station as having more volume inside than is possible. I doubt there’s anyplace on DS9 that could devote the volume needed for one of the larger holodecks available on a Galaxy class ship.
But do the Enterprise E's Holosuites come with a piping hot woman with Quark's head?
Also Lilly and Picard were clearly in the Stardrive, already in Borg territory. The holodecks are likely in the saucer section.
I always liked the non-canon background material in the Star Trek: Bridge Commander manual. It says that the Sovereign development started after the events of "Q Who," but it was still in development by the Battle of Wolf 359. It was to be a testbed ship incorporating ablative armour, regenerative shields, bio-neural gel packs, and faster warp drive systems, but since as a whole the ship never quite worked properly during its trials around 2371 those technologies got spun off into the Defiant Class (armour), Prometheus Class (shields), and Intrepid Class (gel packs) respectively to be refined, while the Sovereign prototype sat in storage.
Around that time a second Sovereign hull was laid down with conventional shields and deflector systems, and that became the Enterprise-E; it was still the most advanced single ship in the fleet at the time, but it didn't have the full suite of enhanced systems that the original Sovereign was meant to have. Once the Prometheus had successfully demonstrated that regenerative shielding worked, Starfleet decided to refit the Sovereign prototype with all of the systems it had been intended to launch with; that refit is completed after the first few chapters of the game just as your character is promoted to command of the new Sovereign.
bridge commander was far better trek than anything currently available.
Non cannon background. That explains my comment i should have read more comments before i posted one of my own lol.
The bio-neural Gel packs bring one even more interresting question...Can the ship get drunk?
...I imagine a tipsy computer trying to make advances to Jean-Luc.
"Mondieu Jean-Luc! So energetic this morning. Should i raise the room temperature so you may feel more ...relaxed?"
...a frightening thought! 😂😂
No. Scotty can confirm that sythahol just isn't a proper drink. Maybe if you smuggled on something that was "Green".
This comment right here deserves a pin to the top LOL :D
Voyager could have done another "The Naked Time" sequel, would have been hilarious
Talk about missed potential
It was Drunk as Hell fighting The Simatar every shot mist when the cloak was showing at least a bit lol.
The way I see it, the Sovereign class, and her contemporaries like the Akira, are examples of Starfleet adapting to new threats. We know the Federation has always been pretty much the leader in technological advancement, and their ships had an advantage over those of the Klingon and Romulan Empires due to their multi-role nature rather than being specialized in one aspect or another. Not only that, Starfleet has always shown a capability to adapt and improvise, and usually a helluva lot faster than most factions.
After Wolf 359, the Federation needed more ships with more of a combat focus. Essentially Starfleet in the 2370s started adapting to more represnt the saying "If you want peace, prepare for war". A hard lesson to learn, but losing 40+ ships in one battle was one helluva wakeup call for Starfleet.
The Borg clearly demonstrated they were the biggest force to be reckoned with, and made it clear they weren’t going to stop being a threat. Never mind the other known non-Borg neighbors in the galaxy they already knew about.
And if nothing else has been made clear throughout history, fictional or not, past or not, however powerful you think you are, there’s always someone more powerful than you waiting to hand you your head. The more you explore, the higher the chances are you violate someone’s wishes to the degree you need to either be able to fight them, or outrun them, so no speed is fast enough to not be justifiable in exploration.
The sovereign is still my favorite ship of all. Gorgeous, dangerous, but still got that original saucer feel
What we hear regarding Shelby is that when she came to StarFleet Tactical every Admiral Uncle had a take on the Borg and she 'cut through it... she put us on track.'
My idea is this:
1)
-All teams responsible for ships under development and all teams for ships under production and all teams for refit were consolidated into a single program.
-All survivors of skill from W359 were transferred into the design program.
-New purely tactical vessels were initiated.
So:
Sovereign, Akira, Intrepid, Nova, Steamrunner, Norway etc. All these ships were already being designed, due for refit, or entering production, but their teams were consolidated.
While Sisko and may others were tasks with designing new tactical hull-forms and roles that filled gaps in the fleet at Wolf 359.
2)
Specific think tanks were developed for systems that could be installed om any ship, but were not responsible for designing those ships.
System development teams were classified, so assimilation could never expose the whole program. That is why SF Operations were unaware of the ablative armour on Defiant.
-Advanced Ablative armour.
-Quantum Torpedoes.
-Pulse firing and rapid-firing automated-loading torpedo launchers, smaller and modular torpedo launchers with focus on continuing fire rather than the Galaxy-style burst firing.
Etc.
3)
They immediately halted installation of outdated systems and focused purely on constructing resilient and durable hull-forms, discarding designs and ships that were not anticipated to last long under fire from a Borg ship.
4) A mandate is put out that all new ships must be able to match the Galaxy Class in speed, as well as either firepower or defence, on at least one firing arc. As the Galaxy was the only ship shown to survive an encounter with a Borg Cube.
So:
-Sovereign goes from being an Excelsior replacement to the single most heavily armed and shielded ship in the fleet; removing most redundant and multi-mission scientific and cargo capacity for tactical capability, allowing a ship 1/3rd the volume of the Galaxy to have 10 times the firepower and several times the shielding and armour.
-Akira's have cargo bays removed and replaced with torpedo launcher arrays, with their massive shuttle-bays repurposed for long-distance fighter carrying.
Meanwhile:
-Defiant is devised as a ship with the forward firepower of a Galaxy Class, but easily mass-produced and containing minimal scientific and engineering capability. Which can keep up with the fleet
-Prometheus serves as a 'force multiplying ship carrier', inspired by using the Galaxy Class saucer section to spread out the Borg's tactical grid. Two Prometheus ships arrives with wings of Akiras and Defiants, and now you have 12 ships instead of 8.
Etc. et
This is the best Starfleet tactical analysis I have ever seen.
That actually makes a lot of sense for the shift we see.
That was amazing man, the best explanation of Starfleet Military Doctrine post W359
The Sovereign remains my favorite ship by far!
Just like there were several ship classes designed using the Galaxy class systems, like the Nebula and New Orleans, when Starfleet started ramping up for war there were several ships all being developed together. The Sovereign class was the biggest and would have been the center piece of a battlegroup and it took longer to build. The Defiant was first, then the Akira, Steamrunner, and Intrepid were started being worked on with the Sovereign probably only weeks behind them, but taking longer to be sure about the new systems. Once the designs for the Akira and friends were set those groups started in on the Prometheus. With all 6 classes being designed to work together.
I see the intrepid as being between generations. It has design cues from the "galaxy project" most notably the galaxy class escape pods.
I believe the Sabre was actually first.
The Defiant was the stop gap. They put all of their ready to go technology into something that could bring the fight, be rapidly constructed, and easily replaced. A swarm style attack ship. The others had specific roles to fill such as the Akira being a carrier and torpedo boat, then comes the Sovereign with as the centerpiece Battlecruiser. The Prometheus came after as the next evolution. The Intrepid is Starfleet continuing to push the edge of technology through the 2360s, integrating systems and design ideas that would counter the Borg, while also being the first to address subspace damage, pushing the bounds of warp drive technology and exploration.
The Sovereign always struck me as beautiful and wholly terrifying. Something you only have a small number of in the fleet, so you can send it when Starfleet means business and encourage de-escalation. Probably took a lot of resources to build compared to Akira, Defiant and other badass classes.
When you can replicate most things, use matter/anti matter reactions to generate power, resources fade rapidly into irrelevance. The only finite resource is the time it takes to replicate, time it takes to move pieces and assemble them.
@@lokisgodhi Also the crew, both on the ships themselves and in the shipyards. There's a reason Starfleet tries to automate both their ships and shipyards. Replicators are a wonderful piece of technology but they can't (yet) replicate officers.
I liked the sovereign and the way star trek evolved. They went from a cold war with the klingons that occassionally had open fighting to a time of peace, where they had a utopian existence. They were snapped awake from that by Q introducing them to the Borg, and then by further Borg incursions that prepped them for the Dominion War. Every period of peace will eventually give way to war and how you handle that transition dictates how your culture and civilization moves forward. If you are able to prepare, which the Federation was able to despite the Borg shock, then you can keep your ideals and move forward. If you are completely shocked into it, like the US in WW2, your entire outlook changes and your civilization changes too, with the US in this example going from peaceful isolationists who didn't want to get involved in wars to over fifty years of militarization, military conflict, and nuclear posturing.
I always thought the Sovereign class and the Prometheus class were of contemporary designs in terms of construction, but the Sovereign was probably designed originally at the same time as the Akira and intrepid classes, essentially the rest of the so-called anti-Borg/ Anti-Dominion Ships where used as testbeds to figure out what worked and what didn’t work and that’s for example why the sovereign class has Isoliner chip backups In addition to the bio neural gel packs. Now is it a Betrayal of Gene Roddenberry’s vision , yes and no I think I don’t think it’s a betrayal of Gene’s original vision but I believe that somewhere between the end of the original show in the 1960s and the Filming of the original Star Trek movie Gene developed an even more grandiose idea of Starfleet and the Federation, The post-golden age Starfleet we see in Deep Space Nine and the Next Generation movies is a betrayal of the second idea of Starfleet whereas new trek is a betrayal of the first idea as well as the second idea.
There was once an episode, when all the power was flaking out, technology useless. Riker asked if they could scrounge up some rocks and sticks incase the other ship moved in. I've Heard ret-cons of TOS that said The Connies were primarily analog systems to thwart take over. Having simpler redundant systems like the isolinear chips makes sense because it's what we would do, what we've always done. Sometimes the backup is built-in to the design, sometimes it's added systems and equipment, but we always have some sort of backup.
To me. The Sovereign was, and still is, the most beautiful Starfleet ship, ever.
The sovereign is a beautiful and necessary ship.
The Sovereign class doesn't portray Roddenberry's original vision. In fact the Sovereign class could be considered a spiritual successor to the Constitution class both ships were hybrid war/science ships. This means that both ship classes could function as both a science ship, to explore the universe, but also has the most powerful tactical systems available, which meant it could also function as a powerful war ship. This also can serve as a deterrent to at least make alien gov'ts at least think twice before attacking the Federation, because while coming in peace during 1st contact; they'd also see how powerful they are. In fact the Sovereign should be the model for all future starships
Couldn't have said it better myself... Nice!
"The Sovereign class doesn't portray Roddenberry's original vision"
Correction
"The Sovereign class doesn't *betray* Roddenberry's original vision"
Also, agreed. 1) Roddenberry was a Navy man. His perspective is going to be from the that of a military. Not a warmonger, as "peaceniks" will say any acknowledgement of or overture toward military preparedness and doctrinal readiness to action will exclaim.
2) The Constitution was built during a time of heightened tensions between the Federation and Klingon Empire... and the Romulans. It was built to combat more so than most vessels of the time. The Sovereign likewise, but against the BORG, who could show up at nearly anytime because they can, and potentially or actually hostile nations like the Dominion, who might spring up from nearly any rock in the cosmos.
3) With ships like the Sovereign Class, Starfleet and the Federation was finally at least reaching around behind to remove that "kick me" sign so many other races and governments, like the Dominion, took as permission to assail an overtly unprepared and weak target. This does not mean the Federation is becoming more warlike. More that they are sick a tired of being periodically shoved into a corner ready toe be "raped and murdered" by some bad guy who shows up out of the shadows.
It's the old maxim you see in martial arts: you prepare to fight while hoping you never have to. Pacifism is often mistaken for "passivism" - I. E. That pacifism means avoiding fighting at all costs, even to the point of laying down & dying to prevent conflict. Pacifism is simply a preference for peace & a desire to uphold it - & sometimes that will require fighting to defend your lives & beliefs. The Federation in the TNG era seemed to lose some of that, likely due to peace with the Klingons & non-hostilities with the Romulans making them think they didn't have to maintain that vigilance any more. That arrogance was exemplified in "Q Who," where Q showed them just how unprepared they were for the dangers out in the galaxy.
Far from the Sovereign & Defiant betraying Roddenberry's vision, I'd say that TNG itself portrayed a decay in humanity's vigilance as seen in TOS. It wasn't a case of choosing between being explorers and being warriors - it's that humanity would be capable of both at the same time. While obviously imperfect as an organisation in the 2260s, it also showed a Federation that wouldn't have been brought almost to its knees by self-inflicted complacency. Maxwell wasn't right, but he wasn't wrong either.
Roddenberry was a lefty so it isn't a surprise the world he created was a fairy tail Utopia. No money, 'we work to better ourselves', etc. etc. It wasn't realistic when Roddenberry created everything, isn't today and won't be in 250 years.
@@DocWolph Actually Roddenberry was Air Force. Then police. But yes. And the Constitution....I mean she launched in 2245 so technically that was before tensions with the Klingons and the renewal of hostilities with the Romulans. But Starfleet was well aware that they needed to be ready to defend themselves in deep space, away from the Federation.
Wouldn't the Defiant technically be "the moment Starfleet actually decided to start killing people"? It's unofficially a war ship, nothing more or less!
I think this ship came slightly after the other ships were field tested so they could build this one as Picards Pappy Daddy Pimp Hand. Decks 25/26 may have been empty to be filled in later and/or a massive two deck cargo hold.
I like it. Head Cannon SOLD!
Never know if ya an extra deck for whales. ;)
Another possible explanation is that certain deck numbers are skipped, like how the 13th floor is skipped in US buildings.
Sovereign is my second favorite class ship, to me nothing beats the Conny refit.
I'm with you 100% here.
Same!!!
I have your 1 and 2 flipped, Sovereign is the best Star Trek ship design to me but refit Constitution is my #2
@@BC08 A very respectful ranking. I can't complain about such good taste.
during the fly-by shot, I've noticed that the underside of the saucer has what seems to be a two-deck bulge (and the ship has no other bulges), so that could easily be the source of the two deck difference. (24 decks if you only count by vertical separation (logical to use when describing height), but 26 decks if you count each and every separate deck(logical to use when dealing with logistical issues))
She was a fine lady and worthy of the name Enterprise. Its been 20 years since we last saw her. And to my mind, if she has been retired or lost, isn't it about time we had a new Enterprise? I would dearly love to say the F from STO is the official replacement but until its on a TV or movie screen, I can't. I know we ate getting a new show with the original Enterprise and I am looking forward to seeing it, but I want the stories to go forward rather than back. We need a new Enterprise on the small screen.
I want to see the J in all its glory on screen
I believe the Enterprise-E is still in service and we will see her before Picard is done. I also predict Captain Worf is in command of the Big E since in 2399 or 2400, The Enterprise-E would be only 26-27 years old. Young for an advanced Federation Starship.
@@davequinlan3020 I hope so. It would be nice to give her a proper send off at least.
@wolfkang1 Agreed. Since Data's death, and since Worf technically was a command officer, and also with his experience being Strategic Operations Officer (AKA Second Officer) on Deep Space Nine, I always surmised that Worf became Picard's XO following Nemesis. It only makes sense for Worf to take over command of the Enterprise-E following Picard's promotion and assignment to the Verity and leading the Romulan Evacuation. In my eyes, Commander Madden was never the Enterprise XO since that scene was deleted.
The Sovereign class was a great vessel. It was also a great reuse of the Galaxy class saucer section with only minor modification to the look of it and turned 90 degrees
And also don't forget the Sovereign Class is not only a large and powerful Starship the thing is a freaking Battleship that is nearly 700 meters long and weighs over 3 million metric tonnes.
The Sovereign class was a child of necessity. The Federation was finding itself under increasing threats at this point, starting with the Borg, who the Enterprise E had to face almost immediately. It does feel strange seeing the Enterprise as a purebred warship, until you realize that everyone outside of the Federation (or, maybe just outside her own crew) viewed the original Enterprise (NCC-1701, no bloody A, B, C, or D,) specifically as a BATTLE CRUISER.
Grunt: "Sir, an enemy vessel is approaching."
Kruge: "...yesss, a Federation Battle Cruiser."
(From Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, as the Enterprise-01 approached the Genesis planet)
Wow, the sovereign and I have something in common.
Cheese destroys us. Wish I could switch out my neural packs.
Gene didn't want to change with the times and the times changed Trek without him.
This was for the best.
That title you have for this video made me laugh. When the Borg Anger Daddy is just awesome.
My favorite aspect of the Sovereign Class is its profile. It just looks so much more aggressive and capable of combat than the D. My suspicion on its design is that it started out as a successor to the Excelsior, then with the discovery of the Borg, they upsized it and focused on its combat capabilities. Now to justify this guess, I will speculate that the successor was still largely in the blueprint stage before it was refashioned as the Sovereign.
Given that Cardassians built DS9 and despite all the fear the writers attempted to engender with "Obsidian Order" Cardassian technology is an absolute joke. I have no problem believing that the advanced technology that the Sovereign class was built with...produces as much or more power than a Cardassian space station.
As for my opinion for Roddenberry's vision. He was an Idealist who was either ignorant, of, OR, more likely in denial concerning human nature. I personally prefer Starfleet with a more military bent. They can and should explore, do scientific research, etc. Hell the US Navy does a lot of that. As does the US Air Force.
Yeah I agree especially when you consider that Terok Nor was probably built in like the 2330s or 2340s. If three Galor class ships built in the 2360s were no match for a Galaxy class built in 2360 just imagine the difference in power between an old Cardassian station and the Federation’s flagship.
I really don't think, Roddenberry was ignorant. He hoped, that the humans would overcome their aggressive nature and become more peaceful in the future. But he considered, that not all Alien Life Forms would be so peacefull like the humans, so he put some defense weapons on the ships.
@@Anthyrion I would agree with that.
I also think that it would be foolish to try to restrain Trek to "what Gene would've wanted".
Plots have to advance, and the status quo produces stagnancy. Seeing the Federation trying to uphold the spirit of those ideals in the face of greater adversity is far more engaging and interesting than endless optimism in a utopia.
@@darklordofsword Right. And like Sisko always been quoted: "It's easy to be a saint in paradise." The Federation had to adapt. Especially with threats like the Borg and later the Dominion. And until the unwilling encounter with the Borg, it wasn't really nessecary to produce real warships. The status quo of the three most powerful empires (Federation, Klingon, Romulans) kept itself in balance and if there was a problem, it was mostly sure, that the Federation Diplomates can handle the situation. And if not, the Federation was good enough equipped to deal with threats.
I do like the war plots more, or more precisely, the cultural balance between the military nature of Starfleet and it’s often unaggressive role.
I also want shows that are smart, not just flashy and bloomy.
The Sovereign class shows that Starfleet is starting to grow up. Every flower child says "Just give peace a chance." But every adult says "You give peace a chance. I'll cover you if it doesn't work out."
The fact of the matter is that there is evil in the world--or universe, as the case may be. You don't fight evil with a strongly worded letter and you don't stop evil by asking about its daddy issues. You fight evil with weapons and you stop evil with bombs. On some level, Starfleet has always understood that--which is why their ships can throw bombs that yield more destructive force than a nuclear weapon. They can call themselves a "peace keeping and humanitarian armada" all they want but these are warships. They just happen to be warships that aren't very good at their job.
Eventually, though, we all have to grow up. The brutal truth of reality forces us to. And whether the Sovereign class is a "betrayal" of Gene Roddenberry's vision is, unfortunately, irrelevant because the Sovereign class *is* the logical progression of a society surrounded by hostile alien forces.
Maybe the Sovereign class is a betrayal of Gene Roddenberry's vision of the future--I can't really say. But, if so, Gene Roddenberry's vision was an equal betrayal of reality.
In the grim darkness of the far future...
Isn't the point of writing fiction for it to be a betrayal of reality in some sense while maintaining enough reality that the reader can connect with it?
I'm not saying that an all-peace all the time Federation would have been more entertaining than what was made, what I am saying though is that it is possible for canon Star Trek to be both a betrayal to Roddenberry's vision as well as a more realistic depiction of human civilization.
@@cappyricks942 Sure. But there’s a limit to the suspension of disbelief. And there is a baseline psychological appeal in all humans. On the most basic level, we all want to see the same things.
If the Romulans launched a sneak attack on a Federation outpost and brutally murdered the entire population, we both expect to see certain things and desire to see certain things. If the Federation response consisted of forming an action committee and penning a strongly worded letter to the Romulans, we would be… disappointed. If the Federation wrote this letter in the language of the Tholians in order to avoid offending the Romulans with their earth language, we would scratch our heads. And if these tactics actually WORKED, the Romulans went home with a meek apology and everyone sang kumbaya together, no one would watch.
Roddenberry’s “vision” for Star Trek was that Star Fleet is a “peacekeeping and humanitarian armada” meant to further the ideals of the Federation. This cannot be done without the capacity for war. Thus, the Sovereign class-it is either a continuation of this vision (protecting the Federation and furthering its values) or it betrays this vision because Roddenberry was staunchly against war of any kind…
and thus Roddenberry’s vision makes no sense in a logical universe and who wants to watch that?
I always saw it as The Federation had a long peace bought by the Kirks of the original star trek, which led to a technological advancement so far above the various empires of the alpha quadrant that Federation Science and Exploration vessels could match dedicated Warships and best them, which led to a implicit arrogance in Starfleet/The Federation that they didn't need warships until Wolf 359 bitchslapped them out of it. Which would also explain why Diplomacy tended to work so well, as the new species etc saw Starfleets exploration ships and realized just what Starfleet could do if pushed, meaning they could follow through on their agreements.
If you pay attention to Gene Roddenberry's backstory of Star Trek, well, all that co-operation between humans happened after the loss of most of humanity. It's basically a post-apocalyptic future, they are near post-scarcity because they don't have much of a population left, some of those major colonies Kirk etc visited don't qualify as major cities irl.
Seriously how good is First Contact?
I’m all about “strange new worlds" idea, exploring and going places. First Contact is the antithesis of that but man is it good.
So here's the thing:
The star trek movies suffer from a major issue of pacing: they tend to be paced like an episode of the show.
That would be fine if they also shared the runtime of the show, or were paced like the multi-part stories. Thus we got plodding stories like The Motion Picture, with huge chunks of visual dead-air filler.
Say what you want about the Kelvin timeline movies being "real trek", but they're infinitely more watchable *as movies* because they're actually *paced* like movies.
First Contact is the one real exception among the original run of films, because it actually *is* paced like a pair of normal episodes edited together, just with a higher budget and better effects.
@@darklordofsword all i can say is, Well said
I think that the sovereign class being the last of the anti borg ships to be built makes sense, all the issues are worked out and the flagships have the best technology. It also probably fits best continuity wise.
Just had this video recommended. I think it added more to the universe. Really many beings had forgotten that the Federation had multiple members who had proud warrior traditions but where willing choosing to be peaceful. The Borg and Cardassian’s where beginning to remind many that occasionally actions are going to be needed. The Dominion War showed many that occasionally you must fight because the opponents refuse to be civil. The Borg where the wake-up call the Federation needed because they where coming either way and Q just choose to give them a heads up.
would be so cool to see how the Enterprise-E would’ve fared in the delta quadrant, Voyager definitely could’ve benefitted greatly with those quantum torpedos. The Krenim for example could’ve been dealt with a lot easier and faster
The Sovereign will always be my favorite ship design in Star Trek.
i always interpreted 'holodecks' were starfleet property, while 'holosuites' to be smaller and privately owned or rented (a suite being: a set of rooms designated for one person's or family's use or for a particular purpose.)
otherwise you could argue cultural/coloquial preference rather than material differences
The Sovereign Class was always my favorite, in looks and capability. A ship meant to do it all well above and beyond all others. It hits home as a homage to classic Starfleet ships, while giving it a new cutting edge appeal. This is the ship you send in when making an enterance for diplomatic negotiations, scientific inquiry, or when some pesky threat like the Borg or Dominion need a serious beat down to be put back in their place.
*Error:* Warp does *not damage regular subspace,* if it did then after millions of years of warp capable civilisations there would be no subspace left.
It was to allow travel in the Hekaras corridor and similar regions (with tetryon radiation) without triggering any effects.
That would be a strategically useful ability, especially if encountering similar instabilities during exploration where no rescue ship would know to look if you got in trouble and you couldn't send subspace messages if you triggered a subspace collapse.
And it would also be useful within the Federation for taking a shortcut or fighting ships in _that particular corridor,_ especially for preventing standard warp drive ships from doing further damage in that area.
Starfleet was testing the Intrepid class's variable geometry nacelles and the Sovereign class's warp core, that didn't _damage subspace in regions that were susceptible._ Starfleet were trialing both concepts, the Sovereign's one was considered better, lack of external moving parts probably helped. And that made retrofitting to older ships a possiblity during _minor refits_ by just replacing the warp core.
Damaging subspace was a stupid idea.
Love the sovereign class. Still a ship of peace but can kick serious ass if need be. The excelsior class is another one my favorites. Thank you for the video.
I enjoyed the sickbay conversation. How the Prometheus had been "the most advanced", yet it more closely mirrors the Intrepid's... Funny possibility - perhaps the Captain or CMO has an option to specify how they want certain things during the construction of the ship? And in turn, perhaps Beverly or Jean-Luc preferred the older-fashioned look?
It would make sense in universe that sickbay (or at least one sickbay) may be modular. Especially if you have to quarantine it, it would make it easier to remove the module while maintaining the quarantine. That would get the ship back in service quickly.
It might be that it has Prometheus Tech but a Intrepid look. Both the Sovereign and Intrepid still daylight as science / exploration so the get the sickbay that designers think a civilian would like to be treated in but so no matter what is under the surface that is the look but the Prometheus gets whatever look it needs to heal patients quicker and get them back in to battle.
Sorry guys, there's literally no in-universe explanation to make it make sense.
They reused Voyagers sick bay set because re-using and re-dressibg sets is practically franchise tradition, and Robert Picardo was basically the second most popular actor on Voyager, so they wanted to have him cameo, just like he had on DS9 playing Zimmerman.
nemesis has a new sickbay as voyager had ended,could just be more than one sickbay in the ship?
@@dalek12002 or it could be that we're a bunch of nerds obsessing over Continuity that nobody working on the project thought ANYONE would ever worry about.
That ship is just beautiful. And awesome! And I don't think it betrays anything. Roddenberry's vision was great, but it couldn't last. And every once in a while, a bully comes your way. No matter what.
Listen guys, even Roddenbury’s vision allowed for phasers (and those nifty, upgraded Andorrian ones) and photo torpedos so…. I don’t see it a direct violation of his vision. It’s more like…. we’re putting contact lenses in instead of eye-glasses to help… Clarify what he was seeing.
Sovereign Class was awesome. It’s a shame we only saw it in three movies!
I really liked the Sovereign, personally. It was big, sleek and could lay down some serious hurt. It went toe-to-toe with Shinzon's flying Starbase in Nemesis and managed to survive (mostly). The thing is a hoss.
The Scimitar came out of that fight worse off. The Big E's saucer section embedded itself halfway in its hull at the cost of only the first few forward compartments.
I always thought a lot of Gene Roddenberry’s vision didn’t make sense. I am glad Star Trek has evolved over the different iterations.
I agree to a point… that point being Discovery _shiver_
yeah, was too idealistic, utopian imho
Picard and Discovery I haven’t watched yet. I Intend to watch them just haven’t gotten around to it yet. I hope I can at least enjoy them. I remember Enterprise being a little of a tough watch at times as well.
@@brandonbowden1262 Picard is okay, the reused some assets from Disco (which makes no sense cause 23c), have some weird pacing at times and some of the characters are... unnecessary at best. Also there is one really disappointing CGI battle. But it's a good overall Story and the TNG actors do a stellar job.
DIscovery is a very forced mess, in a universe that fits nowhere in Canon and Science is more a label to look cool in that show than something they follow. Examples: They travel through subspace with a magic mushroom drive and their ship has the elevator space of the Kelvin ships. It's a mess. Anson Mount as Pike was decent there and they plan to run a series on him so we'll see.
All of that said Discovery is clearly not prime timeline, so it really does not destroy much
I agree you can eliminate every “need” a human has. I do not believe you would ever eliminate “everyone’s” desire for more. More everything. There will always be those that crave power for no other reason than to possess it. In the Gene Roddenberry vision people haven’t just had all their needs met they have stopped being humans.
Thanks for the great Star Trek content! Love it!
Sovriegn Class: When Daddy gets the belt.
Because killing things should be enjoyed and Daddy just got home.
AAAAHAHAHAHA.
Akira/Sabre/Steamrunner: You need to stop.
Defiant: We're officially past the point of conversation now.
Sovereign: Who wants Daddy's belt?
I also liked that comment haha....
11:58 riker cant help himself, always stealing ladies gaze no matter where he is hahaha. The ship was incredible.
“A battle bridge that no one uses” is Picard’s M. O.
Let’s take those children into battle! Engage!
(I know that’s an enterprise D reference but he’d be the same if they had kids on the E)
Honestly, it really doesn't make much sense to go through the whole saucer separation sequence every time you need to go into combat and then leave the saucer behind as a sitting duck because no one thought "hey, let's put even a small warp drive on this thing"
Really, a failed design that I don't fault Picard for not using more.
@@Doctors_TARDIS fair point. But surely given that the warp engines are on the secondary hull, you’d use them to leave the saucer somewhere safe far away then warp to the combat area wouldn’t you? The long range sensors give plenty of warning that danger is nearby so they’d have plenty of time to separate the civilians and warp into danger using the secondary hull.
Granted, it wouldn’t help if a Romulan warbird just randomly decloaked, and arguably it wasn’t sensible to have civilians on board a starship that Starfleet knew may well be going into combat - but that’s one of the issues with the “golden age” in the 2350s-2360s. Thank goodness the Borg came along 😂 shook some sense into everyone!
@@cha02psc Even if you had the perfect situation where you knew you were going into combat and could do all that ahead of time, that's a massive amount of time and effort you have to dedicate to the procedure. And like you said, long range sensors are a thing, so your enemy would likely know about the saucer since it can't get away. It was an awful idea to begin with.
The most beautiful ship ever and created by Scotty.
I think most of the vessels built post Wolf 359 were designed to take on the Borg. You look at the armament and it reflects that. The Sovereign much like the Galaxy class was designed to be a command vessel. In the first design with the torpedo launchers only facing forward I think it was designed as a sit in the back to give orders or to fly head long at a Borg cube guns blazing. The second model reflected what we saw from the Dominion in that while one Borg cube is dangerous a fleet of Dominion vessels are more dangerous and they are a hell of a lot more maneuverable so the design changed to fix that hence more weapons facing different directions. I feel this was a logical end to what the Golden era of Starfleet would have designed something with some teeth and if you had a good enough crew you didn't want to face down a Sovereign by yourself.
But wait wait, where did you hear or read that the Sovereign Class only had forward facing torpedo launchers? It’s always had both a forward and rear launcher (maybe the rear one could only fire photon torpedos - kinda like the defiant).
The Sovereign Class you could argue is the beginning of Starfleet and Federation domination. It was I believe a response to the Borg, thank you Q.
This ship is absolutely a betrayal of Roddenberry's dream. And for that, I say... so much the better. Gene was great for creating Trek, but his hard rule against conflict would have been the death knell of the franchise - you can't write compelling stories in paradise.
That said, The Sovereign is, and continues to be, my favorite canon Trek ship of all time. She's beauty, she's grace, she'll punch you in the face. The Sovereign is the _epitome_ of Starfleet design - no weak neck, well-protected and durable nacelle pylons, _wonderful_ phaser coverage, a heavy-hitting forward armament profile with a relatively minimal forward _targeting_ profile... and you've got yourself the mother of all battleships. That can still capably explore deep space. And if it finds something big and scary and hostile out there? Well, that thing picked the wrong day to be evil.
Foreword: Sorry about the semi-novel. I started typing and just kinda kept going...
The thing about Roddenberry's dream is just that, it is a dream. It is idealized, it is beautiful, but it doesn't fit well into reality. There are a couple of great quotes from season 4 of The Expanse.
One is from Amos; "The thing about civilization is it keeps you civil. Get rid of one and you can't count on the other."
The other is from Murtry;
"People like you always forget, civilization has a lag time. Like light delay. You come out here, and you think because you're civilized, civilization comes with you.
You're just walking in the footsteps of history. The ancient frontier. Those post offices, and railroads, and jails, cost thousands of lives to build. This is no different. I am the kind of man the frontier needs. You're the kind that comes after my work is done. You should have stayed at home .. 'til I built a post office."
The reason I bring them up is both are about civilization. As long as civilization exists, and people want to act civil, then civil society can function. But when you get out onto the "frontier", civilization breaks down and it becomes a matter of carrying a stick big enough to make the price of mischief more expensive than the gains.
The early years of Star Trek were a dream world where everything was relatively civilized. The few things that weren't were all weak enough to be cowed into submission and playing along. But in the real world, if someone doesn't agree with your civilized culture and wants to take your resources, if you do not maintain the strength to fight them, given enough time they will become strong enough to take it from you.
We are seeing this very thing right now with the U.S. vs China. China generally doesn't say it out loud, but they very much want to be absolute alpha dog. The U.S. has ignored them for 20 years and now they are building up a military that, while not necessarily strong enough to defeat the U.S., IS strong enough to make it a VERY painful victory for the U.S.
Don't get me wrong. I love the beautiful dream of early Star Trek, and I am not a big fan of the purely militaristic path that Star Fleet takes. But I like the acknowledgement that the world isn't perfect. I don't remember where it was, but I think there was a line somewhere in the Sovereign era films where Picard is nostalgic, and talks about how he missed the days when they were just explorers. I think it would be cool if they could move the Star Trek universe back to a more balanced position where you had pure civilian chips, general purpose exploration ships, and clearly military vessels, as an acknowledgement that peace is better, but conflict can't always be avoided and needs to be prepared for.
It is like Disney vs an R rated movie. In Disney the villain is always vanquished, the hero always wins, and everyone lives happily ever after. But I hit a point on Netflix & Prime where all of the action/adventure movies I watched ended with humanity completely destroyed. Most entertainment seems to be binary, either one or the other. I like the ones where the good guys win in the end, but it also shows that things aren't all rainbows and hearts after a war because even when you win you still lose. It is just that you don't lose as much by winning as if you had lost or surrendered. I think Harry Potter did a bit of this at the end of the series. I would like to see more of it.
Sorry for rambling and wandering off on a tangent.
The Sovereign was not just the further betrayal of Roddenberry's dream, but all the ships of that era never reach the sense of sweeping grandeur of the Galexy. It's big, powerful, and also astheticly pleasing. The Sovereign departs very heavily in even hull texture and colour from everything before it in such a sudden way you can hear and audible clunk when you first see it.
I often dreamed of seeing the military side of Starfleet. We know that they have ground forces based on anecdotes about the Cardassian wars so they must have landing ships, troop carriers, support ships which means they probably also have destroyers, cruisers, etc... no way they're breaking off a Constitution class from diplomatic or scientific duties for that stuff.
In DS9 they went to war using only your standard ships along with the Defiant. There didn't appear to be any destroyers, or battleships or anything like that. Ground forces seemed to be simply officers from those ships too, nothing like what we see in today's military with specialized roles such as the Marines, Navy, Army, etc.
@@beayn The ground forces seemed to have different uniforms. It could be enlisted Star Fleet that we never see, though.
The ramble about the Holosuite is great, especially since it includes a shot of two Borg drones trying to break into "0820 Holodeck 02" (@8:30)
The Soverign class is a simple message to the galaxy: the Federation is idealistic, not foolish. The Federation wants to be the noble nice guys but Starfleet is fully prepared if other powers violently disagree with them. Does it betray Gene's vision? Yes, but it also honors it in a way. The world doesn't agree with you but you're still trying, and that really means something. Just imagine a mirror-verse Terran Empire version of the Soverign, assuming the same tech level. Shinzon would not have stood a chance, but that would have been the real betrayal of the dream.
Before being so quick to assume that the idea of war readiness betrays Gene's notion of a peace-loving idealistic society, let me remind you he was a bomber pilot in WW2, and an officer on the LAPD.
On top of that, the Constitution, Constitution Refit, and Excelsior were shining silver _gods_ of their eras. Remember, the Federation of Kirk's time only stayed coherent through military might. While primarily exploration ships, they also had to constantly put out brushfires in the form of local rivalries or old grudges flaring up. Otherwise, those brushfires would turn into full blown wildfires in the form of civil war.
Timothy Zahn's _Hand of Thrawn_ duology in the Star Wars Expanded Universe provides a good example of what the early Federation was like, and what the 2360s Federation was _still_ like near its borders.
My headcanon on the deck thing. In the TNG/Dr Who crossover comic Assimilation², the TNG crew and the Doctor teams up against a Cyberman/Borg alliance. When they were done the Doctor gave Starfleet some timelord tech. The Sovereign is bigger on the inside. 24 decks is external configuration and 26 is the internal configuration.
Damn, Trek ships in battle peaked with First Contact.
The use of models, practical effects, and CGI looks phenomenal. Nothing they're doing currently looks as good.
'the old saying is its better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it '
I don't think anyone can deny that the Sovereign is one of the sexiest starship designs, not just in Star Trek, but in science fiction in general. I can't help but love this ship.
THE SOVEREING IS THE PERSONIFICATION OF INSIGNIA SHIP, THE COMFORT OF A GALAXY, THE VERSATILITY OF INTREPID AND THE WAR EQUIPMENT OF A DEFIANT
i'd say that the akira class was starfleet distilling all their current-tech into one vessel, the prometheus was a testbed and the soverign was an upscaled result of the usage/creation of both (if you can't be certain of a system just put 2-3-8 of them on a ship with a bigger powerplant to support it).
Its really smart to have full sets of both tech. The bio stuff for the general speed and a way to isolate it from a full backup system made on isolinesr chips only.
The Sovereign class is the goat. My absolute favorite!
I would say, an Emergency Bridge is always a good idea to have.
Rerouting control to the engineroom normaly takes time and as we saw in one Episode of Star Trek ENT and in Star Wars VI, the destruction of the commandcenter paralises a ship and makes it inoperable, for quite some time, while the ship is still in a crisis-situation.
The only problem with the concept is, that as far as we've seen it in Star Trek TNG, the Battlebridge is normally unmanned, until needed.
It would make sense, to station personal their, everytime, the ship goes to Red Alert, so in case, the main bridge got destroyed, the replacement-bridgecrew can take over immediatly.
(Sorry for the mistakes, English is not my native language)
There should be a watch officer there even durning normal running, most modern warships (and historic) have crew stationed at every control point in the ship (usually 2-4 of them)
The Sovereign was basically the culmination of stuff we saw in the Intrepid, Akira, and Defiant classes as well as testing things for Prometheus. And since we know Kirk era ships(particularly the Connie class) were definitely capable of beating ass when called for, the Sovereign is a spiritual successor to that era Starfleet(hell she was built at the San Francisco fleet yards and not Utopia Planitia)
I think the Intrepid was in the design phase before the Borg, the nacelles added when Starfleet discovered Warp travel could damage subspace. The Defiant came in as a testbed warship, because of the Borg. The Sovereign came in at this point as the “Kitchen Sink Battleship”, something that could throw everything including the kitchen sink at whatever. The other Borg busters were closer to ships already on the drawing board with no real weight behind them until the Borg arrived. Then the Prometheus comes in.
Back to the Kitchen Sink Battleship, I think it makes sense since the Sovereign has everything. It’s release slowed down as Starfleet kept adding capabilities to it throughout its production, until it finally started off the assembly line in a working fashion. Some of it’s capabilities even paired back so that large portions of it didn’t need to installed Tuesday.
For the decks issue, some decks are much taller than others and considered only their top decks in numbering even if they are three decks tall. The discrepancy could come down to the entrance of the bottom deck being on deck 24 even if it expands three decks, if there aren’t clear levels in between. Fyi I was on an Aircraft Carrier, and worked in some of those lower decks.
Always great to watch an ad disguised as a video.
years ago i loved playing startrek armada 2, was a great game for the time, and one outfit did a complete conversion to babylon 5, and that was also wonderful, though it did occasionally dc and send you to desktop, but the b5 models and sounds were so good it was fun to play anyways.
Minor point, when three Sovereign class entered service, it was before voyager reported the problems in their bioneural gel packs. Every problem you listed was encountered in a different quadrant.
My theory with the deck numbering is that they skip a few decks in the numbering for the sake of more superstitious member worlds, like how old buildings don't have a floor 13. The idea being they don't want to discourage people from those worlds from serving
Sorry, Jeffery Winiarz beat you out by 10 minutes brother…. he gets the gold and glory and 20 year old blonde bombshells. Lol
I never thought about the militaristic elements, but I loved the ship and uniforms. I will have a tailored uniform one day.
These video titles are gold
8:34 and here I thought it was holodecks, because they were huge spaces upon ships, and DS9s holosuites were smaller more efficient equivalent that you could squish more of within same space so you can charge more people at once....
I always felt the holosuite was more of a personal holodeck. Where it would be for a handful of people versus a large group. With the sovereign class having the suite version could lean towards it having a more powerful system for power to where it could power multiple smaller hologram emitters. Instead of having to go to a movie theater for example you could have your own private television for a modern-day example. I also feel that it was built around the same time as intrepid and put into service at the same time because of the similarities in internal design language. With the Prometheus being a test vessel with the latest and greatest technology not quite ready for prime time. List of Prometheus you have the simplified excelsior and Enterprise refit bridge module. With the sovereign class you have a more military-centered bridge for a major warship lifting intrepid you have one designed for exploration and battle but with a lowered crew compliment. Intrepid class is probably more automated whereas the sovereign requires more Hands-On work to keep it going just because of how much more powerful it is which would be a great weakness to have.
Second only to the Connie Refit (1701-A ship), this is my favorite ship class.
I think the Sovereign class was a design they were going to make long term, but the Akira came first as a sort of powerful stopgap measure. Something that can take and give a beating but also is quicker and cheaper to make than a full on battleship. We see this sort of thing happen IRL.
Back in WW2, after France fell, the US built the M3 Lee tank as a stopgap design while they design, test and build the M4 Sherman. As a tank, the M3 was fully functional, liked by its crews and pretty damn effective for the time while using elements the US could already produce.
You also see this in something like the Independence-class Light Carrier, which was a refit of a number of Cleveland-class light cruiser hulls to fill a need for new carriers that wouldn't be ready until 1944-ish.
This sort of thing would also allow for new systems to be tested on stop gap ships, allow for design updates and mid-construction refits to ensure that the Sovereign-class starship would truly rule the space of the 24th century with the most powerful tech Starfleet can produce.
Liked the E. It shows that Starfleet was finally learning that space wasnt nice and the borders of hostile powers were getting closer everyday. I've also kind of figured they had learned that tactical systems need to have equal space to science systems or just have ships dedicated either to Tactical or Research.
I saw a Star Trek Truth or Myth video on the History and construction of the Sovereign Class and it said that Starfleet began development of the class just after the development and construction of the Defiant Class with help from Starfleet veteran Captain Montgomery 'Scotty' Scott and also apparently there was like some kind of race in the development and construction of the Intrepid Class where the Intrepid Class can fold up it's warp pylons when it goes to warp while the warp pylons of the Sovereign Class are in a fixed position and at an angle like the warp engine pylons of the Constitution class and like the Intrepid Class the Sovereign Class was built with bioneural circuitry and the largest warp core ever installed on a Federation Starship which was designed and built by Dr. Leah Brahms the same lady who designed the warp core of the Galaxy Class and don't forget the Intrepid Class has the same systems as the Sovereign Class and almost identical weapon systems of the Defiant Class minus the phaser cannons.
Compared to the Akira, steam runner, sabre etc which we see get obliterated by enemy vessels many times this ship was basically destroyed twice (by the Borg from the inside and the Remans later on) and still kept in service because it was such a beast. A solid change from the golden era design of ships that can be 1 shot' as soon as the shields are down
So I ran into an interesting rumour mill item on one of the Trek forums back in '04 or '05 (It might have been Trekbbs, or another similar site). It delved into the weeds about how the Sovereign Class was conceived, prototyped, and built in as little or less time than other ships of that generation (Intrepid, Saber, Akira, etc.)
The rumour was that the Sovereign is actually a very old design (circa 2200s), which was kept active and constantly updated and refined with the latest technologies as they were developed. The design was never* prototyped or put into production, just kept active in the event that the Federation needed a heavy warship design in a hurry. Evidence to support this rumour revolved around certain design themes, including how the Nacelles were high-mounted and long, and the secondary hull was long and narrow. These characteristics are more typical of ships from the 2240s (original constitution) to the 2280s (original Excelsior). More modern designs, starting with the Ambassador class, tended to have shorter, lower-mounted nacelles, and have shorter, fatter secondary hulls.
Obviously they didn't stick with the exact same spaceframe design. The original would likely have been much smaller and more rudimentary. Think a beefed up constitution class with little/no neck pylon and shorter nacelle pylons, maybe in the 350-400 meter range in length. But rather than doing a whole new spaceframe design for every technical improvement or threat change, the original design was instead altered, sometimes drastically, to adapt to the current realities. This eventually brought us to the big, sleek warship we got to see on the big screen.
*An argument I put fourth was that this is may have been how the Excelsior class came into being, and that the Sovereign class is just what the Excelsior class would have looked like had it had another 65 years to ferment on the drawing board.
Transwarp was the latest technology available, and they didn't have an in-service design that could handle the rigors of testing such a technological leap. They weren't big enough, powerful enough, robust enough, etc. Rather than designing a whole new ship, & given the political tensions between the Federation and the Klingons in the decades prior to the destruction of Praxis, it's conceivable that the Federation selected this design to both test transwarp technology and to build a prototype of their now 30-40+ year old heavy warship design. Whether or not transwarp was a success is up for debate (I think it was, hence new warpscale in TNG), but the Excelsior was arguably a huge success.
There would have been a time where the routine design updates were actively prototyped and integrated into the design, which is why we had significant alterations to the original design in the likes of the Enterprise B. But the destruction of Praxis ended the Klingon threat, and prototyping these alterations every time there was a design update became a significant drain on resources. So a class standard very similar to the original Excelsior design was established, and any future design updates to the Excelsior were regulated back to the drawing board. These drawing board updates would continue for another 65 years or so, leading to the sovereign class we see in the 2370s.
On the Galaxy class, the antimatter storage pods were stored on the very bottom level of the ship to aid in the fast ejection of them in case of a breach emergency. With that in mind, perhaps decks 25/26 were designed in such a way where they qualified as decks for the purpose of tactical engagements, but were never designed to be used by crew as work/habitable space, and were instead storage areas for the antimatter/matter storage for the ship?
I can imagine that with an increased requirement for extra antimatter (munitions medium for torpedos) that there would need to be more space given over to antimatter storage than the Galaxy class equivilant.
2:30 normally I skip through it, but...this is a great and well targetted promotion. It as some spore vibes too (a game I loved and I think despirately needs a 2022+ version).
I think your point about the holosuite/deck is actually a on screen blooper, Picard enters a holo suite, the Borg force their way thru a door marked Holo-deck
I'm a Galaxy Class Fanboy, I grew up watching TNG from the beginning and adore it. That said, I think the Sovereign is the most well balanced design in Canon that the franchise has ever had. It's Big but not obnoxious large, it's agile for her size, it packs armor and armament for war, and just looks intimidating. But even with all that, the ship's still comfortable for the crew, has similar if scaled down scientific and medical capabilities of the Galaxy, and is capable of conferences and diplomatic missions. The Halo design of the Golden Era of Star Trek, and one that hasn't been topped yet in modern Trek.
The ship was the culmination of inevitability. War will always exist, so it's suicidal not to have a force capable of fighting, and more importantly, equipped to win.
As to Roddenberry's vision, Roddenberry was an idealist. We don't live in utopia, and we never will. He has my respect for creating what we debate, but that doesn't mean I agree with him. After all, the best episode of TOS (The Balance of Terror, fight me) is a war episode.
I never could actually find the aft torpedo launchers at the model kit for the E. But its good to see more than one Sovereign class ships in seasons 2 and 3 of Picard
You can see on the display for the sheilds,the outline of the ship, where the ship would separate( although never used) 🙃
The sovereign is one of my favorite classes of ship.
Man I just love that ship more everytime I see it
My personal canon here (that's nowhere suggested mind) is that the Sovereign was conceived as a Galaxy class successor given it was so big. But not particularly far along. Probably moreso as a 'design blueprint' as the next big ship. As technology advanced in turn the design was upgraded; since it hadn't really gotten into anything beyond 'proof of concept' it was simple to add in new technology since the ship hadn't bene fully designed so no refitting was needed/it hadn't started being built.
Also one could call it an (early) starfleet response to things like the Vor'Cha and D'Deridex, which could (theoretically) outgun and outsize a Galaxy. So it's a design worked on 'to have one available' and a thought experiment. Lots of nations have 'proof of concept' designs for situations they never expect to come up just to show off if anyone asks.
So the crash program of technological development in turn finds it a fairly good testbed, since the ship is so big that it can be used o fit new things with a greater margin of error. The ship is put through a crash course to prototype it and get it launched (while not canon, Bridge Commander showcases this and I like the idea). Mlutiples of the ship are being produced in paralell rather than waiting for the prototype to have all the bugs worked out (it's hurriedly launched in the brief Klingon/Federation War and accelerated to be in active service as the Dominion War starts).
The ship is big, powerful (probably moreso than almost anything else of the era in the Alpha/Beta Quadrants) but has major teething issues. That, the time ti takes to build them, and the lack of shipyards that can produce ships of it's size (most of which are probably pumping out Galaxy combat variants) means not a lot are made before the end of the war, those that are tend to do priority assignments (in the novels/comics they do 'show the flag, diplomacy, etc') and stay off the front lines. After teh war is over, no one's really sure waht Starfleet's new design philsophy is beyond 'far better armred' but smaller ships are much more effective thanks to advances in technology, and there's no real -need- to build somehthing so huge beyond 'show the flag'.
So while the ship is buil, it never has the huge numbers like the Galaxy and isn't as ubiqitous as the 'big ship of the line' of the era.
Thank you for making this video & live long and prosper 🖖
I feel like the Sovieregn is more of a throw back to the TOS era of doing things.
Like TNG era the Federation will more likely talk talk talk, give ground, TALK then fight if need.
While TOS, and post TNG, is more... Talk Talk, give warning, Talk, KEEP GOING AND I END YOU threat, Talk, Murder, type of deal.
Either way both are Genes vision one is more will to defend itself if needed.
I feel like the sovereign was originally a concept for a Galaxy successor; bigger, faster, even more power; during the golden age, but as new threats emerged the design was updated for battle, and every time they made a new defense tech they tacked it onto the Sovereign to give that stupid strong power core a run for its money. So it being a huge cruiser was always the design, unlike the defiant as an escort, the or the Intrepid as a light cruiser. Or even the prometheus which was just lemon juice of a warship.
I feel like they had the basic idea down sooner, but they kept adding more new tech to make it even more capable, and just when they got it they added something else. The engineers I’m sure had fun. Might also explain why some decks might be Jeffries tubes. Lots of equipment to adjust?
But it paid off, they produced a design equal to a warship twice it’s size, at half the crew, and probably better defense systems.
Considering Scotty himself worked on the thing (at least according to beta canon) oh you can bet your ass the man had fun. He might have been in the twilight of his life, but if he was going to go it would be with a last singular gift to the federation; a ship worthy of the name Enterprise.
Best title ever
The battles in TOS were like submarine duels. They were still military engagements. The vision isn't undermined by creating a "warship" because it was always people and their choices that defined humanity's future.