BaubleRob I'm not "worried about it", but thanks. The point is that this is so lazy. After I've become so emotionally invested in Rich Evans' character, they don't bother committing to good writing and instead say "fuck it" and branch off into a new timeline. I don't have the patience to keep track of these competing story archs.
As for the modification of your Mechs: Its actually correct the way they did it. Limiting your Mechs abilities to be modified is what makes it a BattleMech. The free modifiable version is called an OmniMech and will appear with the Clans. Also Jack not knowing that you get a different ship when you play the story is quite revealing. Its the second story mission I believe.
My #1 problem was the game swarming me with LRM vehicle boats that unlike the tabletop, take several alpha strikes to kill. Every mission gets extremely tedious when 90% of it is just cleaning up the missile boats.
Try Melee, and/or bigger guns. Vehicles take double damage from melee, so you'll usually one shot them, and they only have one "location" for internal damage, so punching a hole through their armor with a big gun will also often one shot them.
LRM boats usually go in one of two directions: pitifully underarmed or slow as fuck. Either way taking them down is a simple task of running them down and drilling/stomping them into submission.
You probably didn’t have sufficient weapons or strategy. A precision shot with an AC/20 with a gunnery skill of 8 will give you a 90% chance to hit. Make that shot on the side of an heavy tank and you’ll take it out in one shot And give you enough morale bonus to make the same thing happen again next round.
Boating moral shots, maxing the AIM stat, or just knowing aim brackets for weapons is not Or perhaps better said "Does not require nor make me feel smart." Why are you boating ellipses like your saying something of value... (ha see what i did there? lol) It feels like its just a matter of having the bigger number and not having the right numbers. If this was farther up the timeline we could have had some better gear for more playstyles but the game feels so bare boned... like it needs an expansion to be a full game. I bought the game anyway cus fuck Harmony Gold buut with having all those free assets from PGI models wise yeeah. Lets hope we get a New Vegas to what this game is now.
It's a Battletech Adaptation, so they went with the "weapon slots" which are part of the board game. Mechwarrior always took way more liberties with the ruleset as it was action oriented. Turns out, sometimes it's a good thing to take your liberties with the source material.
Rich Evans. The modular (weapon system swapping) ability of mechs grew out of Clan omni mechs. One of their strengths when compared to Inner Sphere designs was their modular weapon architecture. You were able to swap one weapon system for another easily by design whereas the Inner Sphere designs (pre-Clan Invasion) were scrapped together relics of outdated technology. Once the Clans invaded (3050), the Inner Sphere adopted and adapted modular design and made their own omni mechs, but this game takes place way before that time.
RE: Nukes in the Battletech universe. The First Succession War after the Star League collapsed freely involved nuclear weapons, orbital bombardment, and chemical weapons. That's why at the time of the games, they are in a Dark Age in which knowledge has been irretrievably lost. Warfare is therefore limited to big robots by the loss of capability as well as mutual agreement. And it would suck to spend an hour setting up a board, and then your opponent says, "I drop a nuke."
It baffles me that people designing scifi games would rather say nukes don't exist when they could simply say counter measures make them worthless. Total annihilation/supreme commander do it "well" so to speak.
@@SPTX. right isn't it easier to say "yeah no one uses them cause there's basically no point anymore" than coming up with something convoluted? Or even just something as simple as "no one wants to be the one to cross that line"
This game was released in 1984 by FASA as Battledroids. They had to change the name to Battletech after a Lucasfilm letter. I bought it, was the best thing ever, played many hours of tabletop miniature combat. And turn-based games fit my lifestyle, i have to get up and deal with things at times, you can walk away for an hour and no big deal. This game is great for me, love it.
Almost all of the strategy in the game, which I found very fun, came from the armour system. The game unfortunately doesn't explain it to you though, so if you haven't played the tabletop version the intricacies can be hard to piece together. Things like getting around to the right hand side of a Panther to take out his PPC, or presenting your intact rear armour to an enemy who has stripped your front is where the positioning really matters.
Did they miss that the story mission before you get the Argo is to defend the engineers who fix it up while you fight off the pirates who are camping out in it?
5) the complaint about hardpoints is valid, but that's literally how battletech works until the clan invasion in 80 years after the battletech game. What Rich describes is omnimechs, where you can put anything you want in the pod (heatsinks, weapons, full customization) which are 80 years away (ie, two expansions or so later)
Oh, also Mechwarrior 5 mercenaries is due to come out this december, maybe y'all could look into it, but i'm 99% sure they sure the same hardpoint system you'd have seen in Battletech. I really appreciate that you guys gave this game a proper looking at too
The game is far from perfect, but it’s a very good representation of the tabletop game. And as far as capturing the feeling of running a merc company and needing to not only win fights, but turn a profit from them, I think they nailed it. I’m sure BattleTech will follow the same course as the HBS Shadowrun games. The initial offering is a good baseline, and the sequels will be even better. I’ve probably got close to 100 hours in this game. My wife just started a play through now, and are having a lot of fun with it!
Pretty much guaranteed. BT and Shadowrun: Returns were meant to be fairly barebones to see if the game could get enough of an audience to warrant more investment. Then BT sold way beyond expectations, and now HBS has Paradox's resources. A handful of free QOL updates are already in the works, with full expansions to follow.
Knowing the devs if it doesn’t sell as much as they want they won’t finish the game and complain that it’s the users fault for not buying enough copies
Battletech is Dune (lite) with giant robots instead of brain magic, or for you youngsters, Game of Thrones with giant robots and spaceships instead zombies and dragons. Absolutely fantastic stuff.
I find the fact that Jack didn't know about the part where you get the Argo which is the bigger ship a little troubling you get that very early in the game like 3rd or 4th story mission!!... can he really be reviewing this game if he hardly played it he probably never even got a heavy mech
aidan cole It is the second story mission after the tutorial. Everything he said that wasn't a technical issues is kind of void given that he didn't even go in far enough to encounter a heavy. That's like complaining that XCOM is bad when you've never gotten far enough to encounter a Muton.
Yes, because nothing changes even after you get the argo and bigger mechs. The early game optimal tactics remain optimal, You never need to max out your mech bays or any of the argo upgrades for that matter, and the story is dull and uninteresting, serving as little more than set piece missions. and as far as difficulty goes: "oh look, its ANOTHER lance of heavy mechs!". Real thrilling stuff. Id stick to megamek and mekHQ.
Also, his complaint of the ai when the enemy had position behind him and it went around to shoot another mech. His mech was an overheated spider. It wasn’t a threat that’s why the ai didn’t target it. Also, they don’t even seem to know about things like brace, precise shot, or valor. If you didn’t play the game enough to even understand the very basic tactical elements you really shouldn’t be reviewing it.
Well... The question can be begged then if really simple strategies can propel them through the game, there really isn't a point to the advanced tactics is there?
Funny that they bagged on The mercenary management because I found this to be quite endearing. You get who you get and they already come with personality. Not to mention all the merc team management is a direct homage to the original battle tech video games: Crescent Hawk’s inception, Revenge, and Mechwarrior 1
The way the initiative system works adds a lot of depth for the multiplayer, the AI is unfortunately too dumb to take advantage of it. That said, strategy is more important than you're giving it credit for and is the difference between losing a mech and barely taking any damage at all. It's not without faults (like the AI) but as a Battletech fan I loved the game and wanted something like this for ages. I do strongly disagree about the UI, Battletech's UI was good and told you everything. I don't agree with Rich bitching about hardpoints either. Without them every chassis would be the same and the chassis with the highest available tonnage would automatically be the best (this was a HUGE problem in the older Mechwarrior titles, just because it's not how you remember it being doesn't make it better). It's also more accurate to Battletech lore to not have omnimechs during this period.
Henry Gerard That's the world building equivalent of a lazy shrug. The MechWarrior universe is impossible with even basic forms of planetary bombardment. You don't even need nukes. Any mass at relativistic speed, or even something heavy dropped from orbit, has the same devastating effect. And it's "outlawed?" By whom? Who enforces that? We're to believe a bunch of mercenaries and feudal lords would avoid the most powerful weaponry available because someone wrote on a piece of paper that they shouldn't? No, it's just that nukes ruin the fun, so they have to go away. The existence of an in-lore explanation doesn't make it _not_ stupid. At least Dune has the excuse of shields.
There's a pretty good channel called Critical Rocket which helps to explain a lot of the lore behind the BattleTech universe, which has been developing for over 30 years.
The reason why it's "outlawed" is because all the major powers realized that if infrastructure gets sacrificed any more, they'll lose control of their ability to maintain Battlemechs. (Infact, some of that has already happened, resulting in "LosTech" that can't be built anymore) Since Battlemechs are their main source of power, it's basically an agreement of, "If anyone fucks over our ability to produce mechs, we will join forces and nuke that person out of existence," which results in everyone playing nice.
pmcdirewolf It's called a "war crime" genius. This isn't rocket science. If countries in real life can convene and agree to abide by a set of military conventions, like, say, at Geneva, then why is it beyond suspension of belief that the same could happen in a universe that mostly abide by historical realism?
Harebrained Scheme's BattleTech is one of the few games that I think could have actually benefited from a *downgrade* in overall graphics. Besides the technical issues of crashing/optimization, a change in artstyle shifting to a more 2d/isometric archetype (that Harebrained does wonderfully in their Shadowrun interpretations) could have freed up resources for deeper game play/story development. The game as it is (when it works) feels soulless and generic, which is sad to say considering Turn Based Tactical Games nowadays seem so few and far between... It's probably not a fair comparison, but I think it says something when I have more hours playing "Into the Breach" than I do "HBS' BattleTech".
Even at that, the graphics looked like... something I could've seen 10 years ago. Bland lumpy grey and brown models. That doesn't exactly scream... graphical quality.
If the lighting effects were less overpowering and the colouration on the mechs brighter, that'd go a hell of a long way to making things more visually distinct. The use of colour in this is really weak from an interface standpoint.
Played a lot of BattleTech and the Mechwarrior RPG in my younger days. My favorite of the video games set in this universe is the original _Mechwarrior_ by Activision from the late 80's. While Rich and Jack's criticism of this game is spot-on, I still enjoyed it. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug.
The problem is on a galactic scale democracy which is already really slow gets even slower. Imagine a election with people from planets millions of light years away. Even with some sort of faster than light travel it would still take years if not decades. The 40k universe also has a lot of feudalistic societys because of how colonyzing settlers organized themselves. The ones owning the giant fucking robots naturally grow into knight/warrior families gaining influence and respect because they are the only thing to protect early and small colonies which are often alone for decades. This turns over a few generation into noble houses with most of the power. The Imperium of man might be slow and incredibly inneficient but that is every system on a galactic scale. While non-democratic systems don't need to wait on voting processes etc.
That's what federalism is for. You have relatively autonomous local government and only the issues that actually affect multiple regions get discussed at the federal level. Dictatorships/direct control monarchies are a hell of a lot harder to maintain in a large empire because in addition to the flow of information and goods required for administration you also have to maintain and deploy a considerable military to keep people in line. Ruling by consent is a lot less expensive than ruling by force, and large distances make ruling by force even more expensive.
+fat4eyes Kind of. But federalism works in reverse as well: a democratic outpost that is isolated from the main group will develop its own democracy and control, to the point that the larger structure either conflicts with it or becomes unnecessary (with the exception of military usage). Politics is driven by culture, and if your culture is local (planet-wide) then your politics will be too. Democracy does not perfectly scale, and we already see this problem in real world large democracies and post-federalism countries. Dictatorships are actually better suited to federalism in some ways. An authoritarian hierarchy allows functionaries to establish autocratic outposts, with defined connections to the larger group. A dictator/king can assign a governor to a planet, give him power to do whatever he wants, and in exchange the empire gets taxes/tributes, natural resources, military resources, strategic positioning from a garrison, etc. The one-way flow allows for isolated power centers without a conflict, besides the usual resentment and desire to *not* be oppressed. You could even establish local representative governments, as long as the governor maintains a monopoly on force, and continues to contribute resources upwards.
Dangerous Joy Feudalism is not "for" anything, no one invented it. It's not a "form of government." It's just the natural structure that develops out of despotism when no organization is strong enough to establish anything beyond regional control. The same way that an Empire is exactly the same structure in reverse, no regional powers are strong enough to defy the central structure. To say "democracy has flaws" represents a baffling misunderstanding of government and Enlightenment ideas. That's like saying life has flaws, so cancer is a better structure. Feudalism is a symptom of a diseased, dying society. It's just people looting and ruling over ruins. Democracy is _known_ to have flaws. Many of those flaws exist _intentionally_ , as a form of separation of powers, to preserve the overall structure. But it's the only form of government that has ever _existed_ in which you have _any_ voice, _any_ control. All others are just rebranded authoritarianism. Even a benevolent philosopher king who writes up a brilliant Constitution for everyone to follow still does so _at their whim_ , and, thus, isn't functionally different from the mad tyrant who sends others to torturous deaths for their amusement. Indeed, previous despotic structures have made such transformations after just one king. To say there'd be no democracy in space is only to say that despotic structures are empowered, _not_ that democracy is "inefficient" over long distances. What, you think feudal societies wouldn't be? Given that FTL systems are overwhelmingly likely to be impossible, and that we live in an age where war _of any kind_ results in thermonuclear annihilation _now_ , let alone whatever nightmares the future could hold... Well, we're either going to figure out democracy here on Earth, or we're going to be dead. Indeed, even in Battletech's own universe, they could only colonize space under an egalitarian model _first_ . Because decentralized despotism is a destroyer of civilization, not a _model_ for where it's going.
That’s essentially what happened in the battletech universe. As people spread from earth you had to rely more on your blood relations for your protection than a popular government. A couple houses become very successful and then everyone enjoys life for 60~ or so years before the pseudo emperor dies and everyone fights each other so hard technology regresses to the industrial revolution
Dangerous Joy That's all you can make of my post? That's not much of a response. Am I supposed to disagree? Yes, there are more options than Feudalism or "mob rule." But I'm assuming you meant by that direct democracy, which isn't mob rule, and also wasn't what I was talking about. Democracy is an umbrella term that describes any form of government where power resides, however dubiously, in the consent of the governed, rather than by the dictates of some ruling army. Whether you vote directly, elect representatives, or pull names out of a fucking hat, that's a democratic form of government, whether it's a republic it a parliamentary system or whatever. If you mean it in that sense, then yeah, there is a dichotomy there. People either elect their leaders, or they are ruled by someone by force. That's not really a controversial observation. So the idea that democracy "has flaws" is hopelessly missing the fucking point. You can _fix_ the flaws, at least in principle, because the system spreads power around with the assumption that most people will want to fix problems. Non-democratic forms of government only exist to support the ruling oligarchy. To the extent it benefits anyone else might as well be accidental. I don't know why that notion isn't obvious but, apparently it isn't.
The Flashpoint DLC helped quite a bit by giving missions with story outside the campaign, which broke up the tedium. NO idea why they shipped it without that included.
I remember playing Mechwarrior 3 and building a mech which was all heavy lasers and heatsinks and the worst engine and armour that the mech could take. My tactic was to find a single enemy and aim at their leg and shoot every single laser at their leg. Even against an Atlas it would be a one hit kill, but also every time my mech would go into overheating shutdown. Good game.
Rich, if you want a modern Mercenaries 2, then the closest is the free to play Mechwarrior Online game. You get money, you spend it on your fully customizable mechs, you fight battles that put you right into the action. Your squadmates are other random people, but that's life. It's the closest anything has come to Mercenaries in nearly 20 years.
Odd complaints re:Mech customization. They complain that all the mechs feel the same, and then complain about hardpoints. When you can fully customize any mech, then the only differentiator between mechs is tonnage. Every mech of a given tonnage becomes identical. With hardpoints, mechs have a bit of character. I know that a Hunchback 4G is going to be a walking cannon, whereas a -4P is ridiculously hot laser boat, and a -4SP is going to run a mix of lasers and missiles. With the game as is, I was excited to find a Dragon, because I knew it'd be an unusually fast heavy mech that I could tweak into a brawling king. If I could fully customize every mech, then the loot lust disappears. I don't need to track down a Firestarter to get my pyromania going, because any mech could be a Firestarter.
To be fair, the game communicates a lot of this very poorly. A lot of their critiques are fair for a player that isn't knee deep into the TT rules or TH-cam tutorials. I'm loving the game but their complaints about lack of personality and excitement are warranted too. And having to play another 8 hours for a chance to encounter that one mech variant that lets you turn mech x into the laser beast you want instead of the missile variant you have. I can see why that could feel limiting. I enjoy trying to work with the limits of the random group of mechs I scavenged. But some more freedom to add a melee focused mech when I want one instead of when the game decides to offer me one, would be nice.
I think they probably should've had an early story mission where they demonstrate that variants can drastically alter the function of a mech. For example, they should've clearly showcased Catapult A1's before showing off Espinoza's Catapult K2. The variety of mechs on offer is pretty good, as far as I've played, so your point about not getting access to the right variant doesn't really work. Sure, you might not get access to the 4P hunchback for a while, but you do get access to Orion K's and Blackknights (both of which are energy boats) You might not get the missile boat catapult you want, but you do get access to trebuchet's and such that can be repurposed into missile boats. And you get access to Jagermechs and such almost immediately, if you want to try to make an AC-boat work. (although I wouldn't recommend it) Speaking of Jagermechs, that ties into my only real complaint about the hardpoint system. Ballistic hardpoints are overabundant, and underutilized. Because they split off small lasers, flamers and, particularly, machine guns into the support weapon hardpoints, there's no light option to jam into a ballistics hardpoint. You can always shove a 1 ton Medium laser, or a 1 ton Srm-2 into a spare energy or missile slot, but the lightest ballistic weapon is the 6 ton AC2. Most of the ballistic heavy mechs can't actually use all their ballistic hardpoints, because even putting the AC2 into all the slots eats up almost all your tonnage.
Really? I find the game to be frighteningly addictive, one of the best pc games in a loooong time. It's like they played a different game than I did. Sometimes you don't need a whole lot of variation between mission types when the core gameplay is so much fun, see the original Xcom game and Syndicate as examples.
I love all the clips of game play are misplays. I think the games great but it definitely needs to do a better job explaining how the different weapons work and what ranges you use them at and what mechs they work with best.
I think the main problem with the combat is twofold: movement and shooting. In mechwarrior games, you can push your mech out of cover, take some good shots, and back up into cover again. You cant do that in this game. Once you move that's it. Just wait to get shot. They needed to add movement points. "Ok, I have 7 movement points. I'm going to use 3 to pop out from this canyon, then fire my lasers, and use my last 4 movement to get back into cover.". That would be fun. Also, the main source of strategy in these games are shot placements. In every mechwarrior game, you can choose to focus fire on key components and whittle away the enemy. An enemy mech has a ppc on their right arm? Blow it off first. Instead, they made called shots a damn inspiration ability. I shouldn't be restricted to calling shots to once per kill. It takes away the fun and strategy, so now you are forced to just shoot in their general direction. If you want to focus a side, you need to move around them. But you cant really because movement is a chore.
MrAluminumJacket You’re not using reserve actions enough. Lighter mechs can wait and at the end of the round move and shoot without worrying they get hit before their turn comes round again. With the right talent you can shoot next round and move back into cover and heavier mechs can’t do much about it.
I would also say that the further along you get into the game this becomes a very important strategy. I have never made more use of flanking and jump Jets, and “precision” shots. you do exactly what you say… examine which component has the LRM ammo or the PPC and focus as hard as you can on that. you are thinking of moving it as a separate activity, but remember it’s all about initiative. this is exactly the way the table top has always been. Also Mechwarrior ( the pen and paper rpg ) always had non trivial modifiers for aimed shots. You may have ignored them when playing or did what we all did and churned our characters with amazing skill sheets. ;)
I found that the main gameplay problem with battletech is that it was infinitely more efficient to just kill all the enemies, as doing a 'hit and run' just doesn't work, as the enemies shoot you from behind, and the reinforcements that spawn between you and the LZ will shoot you from the front. I'm a big fan of battletech so I enjoyed it, but I can understand why others won't get drawn in by the reasons y'all stated.
Mechwarrior 2 Mercenaries was the first PC game I ever bought, and I loved it. Kind of surprising that nobody's managed to top it in 22 years of game development.
I'm with Rich. I want someone to develop a space mercenary business management game now. That'd be awesome. Or Patrician III in space. I'd be totally fine with that.
@Joseph: Me too. After all, Jack is a known aficionado of horrible shlocky fun, he's a fan of the Universal Studios Waterworld attraction, and I can't remember him ever mentioning Al Gore.
Does Rich know about MechWarrior 4: Mercenaries? He can do all of those things he wants. It should still be free. Plus, you can pilot the Behemoth Mech.
18:08 I loved MW2:Merc, and Rich is right about the customization. The "bad" side effect was that mechs didn't feel unique on their own, and it was a linear upgrade path to just get raw tonnage. But the great part was that you could build what you want once you found a chassis whose movement you liked. The hardpoints system isn't new, it came in with MW4, I think. But I think that offered some variant chassis that would give you 2-3 hardpoint configuration options. And it's still a lot less fun than MW2, without adding anything to the gameplay (except maybe lining up with the tabletop rules).
I'm absolutely hooked - I've put in ~50 hours so far and I still savor every combat encounter. I agree on the camera issues. There are also some pacing issues in combat that can be solved with a quick mod, but otherwise I think every other system is pretty well thought out and engaging. On the topic of the "ship" (the Argo), I don't think it's a big deal at all, since spaceships aren't the point of the game. It's just your base. You don't pick your base location in XCOM and I've never minded that. I could see them adding different "base" options in a sequel, but given their limited resources I think they spent time on the right things. Solid recommend from me.
Regarding the combat; the game gets a bit more fun when you understand the heat and stability mechanics and how to abuse them. Its tough to get there, but getting a mech with stacked LRMs and nuthin else is legit cause you can knockdown enemies and get free called shots, and salvage is based on if you can preserve the legs and centre torso
The handwave for nukes and missiles is that they had several centuries long succession wars, in the early ones it was the happy free for all, let's nuke every resource in sight until somebody figured that if they carried on like that they would have to chuck rocks at each other, so they declared attacking resources as off limits and for centuries most factions could barely maintain their equipment, let alone build new stuff.
And btw weapons are hardbuilt into the mechs. It was true to the table top. Variants of Mech's with alternation weapon hardpoints do exist... but those are in the game as well.
Just going back through re-watching some old Pre-Rec stuff, and I see Jack/Rich pretty much being down on the game, so just out of curiosity I checked reviews for Battletech. Just a quick Google-fu and I see a 78 on metacritic with "Generally favorable" reviews & a 7.0 User score, a 94% Google User's score, a 7/10 on Steam with Very Positive recent/Mostly Positive overall score, and a Pre-Rec review that is "meh" at best and "It sucks" at worst. Don't get me wrong I love RLM and liked Pre-Rec as an extension of that, as an extended RLM time with Jack, Rich, and sometimes Jay (and in the early days every blue moon with Mike and Jessi) with an added bonus of video games. But good god, something kept these guys from ever being able to be decent game reviewers. When it comes to movies, they're top notch, when it comes to games... well, not so much. I don't know if it's their personalities or what, but between Jack's 'casual' gamer leaning, and Rich's inability to like anything aside from a few certain genre staples and unwillingness to compromise on anything even for the sake of a review, they missed the mark on more game reviews more than they even got close to the target.
I have played this game. It is a bad game, for the reasons they are saying. Its boring to look at, boring to play, and such a missed opportunity. I disagree with one point they said: if XCOM didnt exist, this would still be a bad game.
They are right about this game. I tried so hard to like it but it isn't a good game. Huge waste of potential for a game that on paper ought to be my dream game.
Interestingly, the makers of BattleTech just finished making three games with very XCOM-like combat in the Shadowrun trilogy. Unfortunately their next game, Necropolis, was so bad that I was in no hurry to jump on BattleTech without hearing more about it first. I'm not sure they're a company that's particularly good at stepping outside of their comfort zone.
Sure, the game is generic and kinda shallow, but not as shallow as they complain it is. You dont just focus fire a mech - you focus parts. There's no point of flanking if you're hitting the front at the same time. In some situations you even turn your back to the enemy when your front armor has been shredded. Same as turning the busted arm away from the enemy to soak up some with your healthy side. And the effective distance plays a role too. They say it's always go forward and shoot the bad guys, and going tactical gives little advantage. Mb it's true, but plyaing tactical is more fun. You can go aroung the map a bit before scans spot you, use a scout to scanlock and do some missile damage beforehand, drag enemies in a line while you're climbing some hill etc etc. It's not about just winning, its about taking the least damage possible.
Mechwarrior 1 is the game that needs to be remade. Like Rich says, the contract negotiating was a lot more fun. Davion, Steiner, Kurita, Liao, and Marik all had different dynamics in how they'd negotiate. Some you could demand way more from. Some, if you demanded more, they'd shut you down and you'd have to leave the planet because they'd basically blacklist you. Some Houses would give you accurate intel on your mission. Others, like Marik, would lie to you and you'd sign on for a basic mission and be sent on a mission you could barely win. It made it interesting. Also, one thing I don't think any of the later MechWarrior games did, MW1 had a tactical overview you could access to order your lancemates around on the map, order them to attack enemy mechs, get to certain objectives, etc. This one time I was on a particularly hard mission and my mech got totaled. Leg got shot off, and I was there immobile on the ground. But my reactor wasn't messed up, and I was still alive. So despite my mech being a total mobility kill, I accessed the tactical overview screen and had my lancemates to complete the mission. Imagine that in a modern MechWarrior game. Not just a first person mech simulator, but accessing an overhead tactical map where you can order lancemates around, set up ambushes, order some mechs to achieve one objective while you go for another, it would be extremely handy. And if you got your mechs legs shot off, you could still complete a mission. MW1 also had a neat hidden feature. You could buy mechs on planets with battlemech factories, where you could get them cheaper than most places, then ship them to far off planets where they'd pay handsomely for new mechs. You'd make a killing as a battlemech trader. You could make far more than actually being a mercenary. MW1 obviously had some serious problems due to its age and limitations but whenever I play it I'm imagining "What would this be like if it was remade today with all the bells and whistles, but with the exact same core ideas?"
I'm pleasantly surprised that Rich is into Battletech. I wanted to suggest the Mechwarrior games to him seeing as he loves Tie Fighter but I'm glad I don't need to.
A good scifi solution to the nuke problem would be that people can scan for radioactive materials and they can stop any uranium enrichment before it happens but I've yet to see that used.
A lot of us that were huge fans of the tabletop game had been yelling at them for a long time to change some things and they didn't listen. And yeah, being stuck on that story sucked - I immediately wanted an option to betray her for the cash.
I miss Rich's giant pixel art, but the background does look good. Think the lighting reflecting off the material is making it look off. The table could also use a potted plant.
You know, when you jumped your mech and exposed your back you may well have generated a bunch of evasion pips from the movement. Just because your back was exposed doesn't mean you were easy to hit. With all the talk of "just stand there and shoot" and no mention of evasion I wonder if you missed that entire mechanic? I found the early game to be very movement-centric. It's true that by the end when you have an all Assault lance combat really does become mostly about standing and shooting, but that was a definite change. You also need to remember this game is clearly marked as an adaption of the battletech tabletop system where combat is pretty slow and back and forth. If that's not for you that is fine, but it's not a failing of the game there - it does what it said it would do. In fact, this game speeds things up a lot with the addition of the Called shot ability (which you also don't mention, did you miss it too?) which makes it much easier to kill stuff dead. In the tabletop you are basically sandpapering enemy mechs to death with sorta rare critical hits thrown in. A lack of mech variety is a problem, but part of it was caused by some company being patent trolls on a bunch of mechs which prevented them being added. You compare XCOM's UI when moving units. In XCOM you can also only see how far a unit can move when you select a unit, but somehow XCOM is better in ways you don't explain? BT also shows the movement range, every dot is a spot you can move to, different coloured dots show terrain modifiers and a tooltip explains them if you haven't memorised them. BT can't just have an outline like XCOM because cover isn't always an edge of something like in XCOM, in XCOM you always want to run to a wall or a car or some other cover, in BT you might want to run to any given spot in range. If you can't tell the difference between a white dot and a green dot you might have some colour blindness issues, but even then the terrain tooltip has the information so long as you can read. You complain that you cannot customise your mercs. That's fair, but it's hardly a unique thing. Some games let you customise the characters you find or meet, others present characters as is. Even Xcom didn't let you modify the plot characters. The devs have already announced they are adding the ability to customise your mercs soon though. It's weird you bring up Darkest Dungeon as a counter example here too, it's not like you can customise your hires in that. They come with their look and traits and will can afflictions randomly. Comparisons to XCOM and complaints about the voice acting seem unfair. Firaxis is a huge studio making AA if not AAA games. BT is from a pretty small studio who funded the game on kickstarter. In your movie reviews you don't shit on B movies for not looking as good as Avatar or whatever £10billion summer blockbuster, so why not have the same consideration for games? You also complain that you can only customise your mechs by changing the paint job. Now perhaps you only meant visually, but that's not what you said. Why don't you mention that you can completely change the weapons, armour, or jumpjets of your mechs? There's a lot you can do to change them, and the same model of mech will play totally differently if you load it up with Medium lasers, AC/20s, or tons of LRMS. Taking 50% damage when you don't move, "I guess that's a game-changer"??? Yes, that is a huge change. I mean, I would argue that skill is far too much of a game changer and is why the late game devolves into stand-and-shoot, but you seem to imply it's not much of a change. I agree the story isn't very interesting, but as Rich says it's possible to have your character just not care. You are also never forced to do the story mission, if you just want to fly about being a merc you can just do that. Ah, you do finally get onto mech customisation. And you make a bunch of stupid claims. There is nothing that says "You must have exactly 3 missile weapons on this mech", it's true you might be only able to have up to 3 missile weapons, but that is not the same thing at all. There is nothing that says "This is the long range missile robot" because long and short range missiles are interchangeable. The hardpoint system is a key part of battletech and for someone who says they are a fan of the setting you sure seem to be ignorant of it. The entire point is that the making of battlemechs is almost a lost art by this stage - they are rare and a lot of the mechs still in service aren't necessarily the optimal models, they are the ones that were made in bulk for exports or were shitty and not in frontline service when the big wars destroyed almost everything. People can barely service these things in the setting, they certainly can't rip out all the missile launching systems to put lasers there, frankly it is a stretch to be able to take out one type of missiles to put another in. The reason you could do more in Mechwarrior 2 is because it was set further in the future of the setting where a faction who has preserved more of their tech were producing new "omnimechs" which had universally swappable systems. This was a revolution in the terms of HMS Dreadnaught. Also, from a gameplay point of view, free customisation lets you just load up on spreadsheet optimal loadouts and all mechs might as well be the same. With limited hardpoints you have a sense of progress when you manage to salvage (another mechanic you don't mention) or buy mechs with better hardpoints or just ones you prefer. "Mech pokemon" was one of my favorite parts of the game. With all that said, you can generally swap mech loadouts a fair bit, there are very few mechs which only have one type of hardpoint. I agree more merc business sim would be good. But typing in your own numbers would be the most tedious bullshit. Hmm, I want lots of money, so I'll type in "$10,000,000" oh they said no. Ok, "$9,000,000",nope. Hmm, "$50,000" oh ok they would but I want more "$100,000"? Yes. Uh, "$5,000,00? Yes! "$7,000,000", oh, no. Imagine another 10 steps until you settle on "$6,178,054". They don't just give you a better ship, you have to go down to where it's crashed, fight out the pirate squatters, and repair it. It's pretty well earned. If the concept of killing dudes to take their stuff seems like a bad mechanic to you, or even the game giving you stuff as part of the storyline feels terrible to you then I don't know you you deal with 95% of games. It's interesting that this seems like news to Jack as I think this happens like 3-4 story missions in, it's certainly less than half way through the story. I guess he didn't play very much before making this review, eh? It's another point where Rich seems to have no clue about the setting he is such a fan of, there's no "Dropship stores" here. Jack's wearing a Waterworld shirt, why doesn't Fishgills just go to the boat shop and buy a new Catamaran or have the local papermill churn out a few thousand A4s for him? Why'd he drinking pee water when he could pop into costco and buy a gross of evian? Oh, because the entire world is flooded and there's no infrastructure for that!
One of my games I had 3 medium 'mechs do nothing but move and Brace and not attack anything, so it naturally became a slog to pick one out to punish with my focus fire. Like you said, tedious.
I just watched an E3 stream on IGN and some guy said "It's awesome because at the end we see Master Chief's helmet". Guys, we're really gonna need that Nerd Crew E3 special.
I'd say this is a pretty fair review. If you don't know much about Battletech lore, you're not really going to get much enjoyment from this game. And the missions can become monotonous after a while. But, the fact that Jack didn't know that your crew is given the Argo tells us that he didn't play very far in the game. I think you are given that ship after about 4 - 5 missions.
You couldn't replicate this kind of odd-couple chemistry in a lab. I miss this.
You underestimate the quality of today's scientists
Agree 💯
I still think about you every day, PreviouslyRecorded
💘
Was the original intro Rich stomping in like a mech with his arms up making blasting sounds while pretend shooting from his fists? I bet it was.
I do that when i walk into most rooms... My girlfriend laughs at me when she sees so I have to exterminate her with my shoulder mounted PPCs
And then fell down and with all the grace of a Battletech universe mech falling off a cliff with no thruster fuel.
Rich Evans calling Battletech underappreciated and knowing the lore of the universe makes me fall in love with him all over again.
Rich Evans is a national treasure.
No, global treasure.
@@JoesGuy No, a universal treasure.
Seriously? An actual set? What happened to the couch?
These changes to the Previously Recorded lore are becoming too much for me to handle!
It looks very nice, i like it very much. Those stands in the back look also very nice.
The couch was taken over by 2D pixel art version of Rich & Jack.
We can't get the couch back.
What happened to Jack!?! He lost his hair! And his tail! This is unwatchable! UNSUBSCRIBE!
The Mandela Effect THE SERIES !!!!
BaubleRob I'm not "worried about it", but thanks. The point is that this is so lazy. After I've become so emotionally invested in Rich Evans' character, they don't bother committing to good writing and instead say "fuck it" and branch off into a new timeline. I don't have the patience to keep track of these competing story archs.
Is Jack Packard replacing Cat Packard?
Actually I'm many cats in one. See my avatar. :P
Ahhh, I get it.
_Hewlett Packard_
CAT OF BOI
As for the modification of your Mechs: Its actually correct the way they did it. Limiting your Mechs abilities to be modified is what makes it a BattleMech. The free modifiable version is called an OmniMech and will appear with the Clans.
Also Jack not knowing that you get a different ship when you play the story is quite revealing. Its the second story mission I believe.
Rich knows way more about battletech than i thought either of them would going into this video..
My #1 problem was the game swarming me with LRM vehicle boats that unlike the tabletop, take several alpha strikes to kill. Every mission gets extremely tedious when 90% of it is just cleaning up the missile boats.
Try Melee, and/or bigger guns. Vehicles take double damage from melee, so you'll usually one shot them, and they only have one "location" for internal damage, so punching a hole through their armor with a big gun will also often one shot them.
LRM boats usually go in one of two directions: pitifully underarmed or slow as fuck. Either way taking them down is a simple task of running them down and drilling/stomping them into submission.
Don't forget the SRM 100 boats that will headshot your Glitch pilot to death..
Urbies still best mech
You probably didn’t have sufficient weapons or strategy. A precision shot with an AC/20 with a gunnery skill of 8 will give you a 90% chance to hit. Make that shot on the side of an heavy tank and you’ll take it out in one shot And give you enough morale bonus to make the same thing happen again next round.
Boating moral shots, maxing the AIM stat, or just knowing aim brackets for weapons is not
Or perhaps better said "Does not require nor make me feel smart."
Why are you boating ellipses like your saying something of value... (ha see what i did there? lol)
It feels like its just a matter of having the bigger number and not having the right numbers.
If this was farther up the timeline we could have had some better gear for more playstyles but the game feels so bare boned... like it needs an expansion to be a full game.
I bought the game anyway cus fuck Harmony Gold buut with having all those free assets from PGI models wise yeeah. Lets hope we get a New Vegas to what this game is now.
It's a Battletech Adaptation, so they went with the "weapon slots" which are part of the board game. Mechwarrior always took way more liberties with the ruleset as it was action oriented. Turns out, sometimes it's a good thing to take your liberties with the source material.
This was the good intro?
Rich Evans. The modular (weapon system swapping) ability of mechs grew out of Clan omni mechs. One of their strengths when compared to Inner Sphere designs was their modular weapon architecture. You were able to swap one weapon system for another easily by design whereas the Inner Sphere designs (pre-Clan Invasion) were scrapped together relics of outdated technology. Once the Clans invaded (3050), the Inner Sphere adopted and adapted modular design and made their own omni mechs, but this game takes place way before that time.
RE: Nukes in the Battletech universe. The First Succession War after the Star League collapsed freely involved nuclear weapons, orbital bombardment, and chemical weapons. That's why at the time of the games, they are in a Dark Age in which knowledge has been irretrievably lost. Warfare is therefore limited to big robots by the loss of capability as well as mutual agreement. And it would suck to spend an hour setting up a board, and then your opponent says, "I drop a nuke."
It baffles me that people designing scifi games would rather say nukes don't exist when they could simply say counter measures make them worthless.
Total annihilation/supreme commander do it "well" so to speak.
@@SPTX. right isn't it easier to say "yeah no one uses them cause there's basically no point anymore" than coming up with something convoluted?
Or even just something as simple as "no one wants to be the one to cross that line"
Bring back the cat
Meow 🐱
we got to put the cat, back in the bag, even if it's already out of the bag, so shove that damn cat back in the bag
Battlehacks
fraudtechs
BattlePAWNS
MechWarrior 3 was the absolute shit when I was young. My friends and I played it for hours and hours. Maybe the best game of its kind.
trexation its still an incredible game
Congrats on 1 million subscribers minus 900,000!
Rich loves the BattleTech universe? I'm kinda surprised.
This game was released in 1984 by FASA as Battledroids. They had to change the name to Battletech after a Lucasfilm letter. I bought it, was the best thing ever, played many hours of tabletop miniature combat. And turn-based games fit my lifestyle, i have to get up and deal with things at times, you can walk away for an hour and no big deal. This game is great for me, love it.
Almost all of the strategy in the game, which I found very fun, came from the armour system. The game unfortunately doesn't explain it to you though, so if you haven't played the tabletop version the intricacies can be hard to piece together. Things like getting around to the right hand side of a Panther to take out his PPC, or presenting your intact rear armour to an enemy who has stripped your front is where the positioning really matters.
Did they miss that the story mission before you get the Argo is to defend the engineers who fix it up while you fight off the pirates who are camping out in it?
5) the complaint about hardpoints is valid, but that's literally how battletech works until the clan invasion in 80 years after the battletech game. What Rich describes is omnimechs, where you can put anything you want in the pod (heatsinks, weapons, full customization) which are 80 years away (ie, two expansions or so later)
Oh, also Mechwarrior 5 mercenaries is due to come out this december, maybe y'all could look into it, but i'm 99% sure they sure the same hardpoint system you'd have seen in Battletech. I really appreciate that you guys gave this game a proper looking at too
The game is far from perfect, but it’s a very good representation of the tabletop game. And as far as capturing the feeling of running a merc company and needing to not only win fights, but turn a profit from them, I think they nailed it.
I’m sure BattleTech will follow the same course as the HBS Shadowrun games. The initial offering is a good baseline, and the sequels will be even better.
I’ve probably got close to 100 hours in this game. My wife just started a play through now, and are having a lot of fun with it!
This is probably going to turn out like Shadowrun, where the initial offering is kinda ok, but the follow-up is kinda great.
I'd rather play a new entry in Shadowrun series or game based on another tabletop RPG (Cthulhu Punk or Dark Sun for example).
Pretty much guaranteed. BT and Shadowrun: Returns were meant to be fairly barebones to see if the game could get enough of an audience to warrant more investment. Then BT sold way beyond expectations, and now HBS has Paradox's resources. A handful of free QOL updates are already in the works, with full expansions to follow.
Knowing the devs if it doesn’t sell as much as they want they won’t finish the game and complain that it’s the users fault for not buying enough copies
I think you are making things up in your own head right now. From what I've seen of the devs they're plenty good people with their heads on straight.
it's called Necropolis look it up
I want to see Rich Evans try Dwarf Fortress. There'll be much fun!
Jack is apparently anticipating Waterworld.
The pilot leveling up did impact the gameplay pretty significantly, at least for the 3 special powers you could pick
Battletech is Dune (lite) with giant robots instead of brain magic, or for you youngsters, Game of Thrones with giant robots and spaceships instead zombies and dragons. Absolutely fantastic stuff.
I find the fact that Jack didn't know about the part where you get the Argo which is the bigger ship a little troubling you get that very early in the game like 3rd or 4th story mission!!... can he really be reviewing this game if he hardly played it he probably never even got a heavy mech
aidan cole It is the second story mission after the tutorial. Everything he said that wasn't a technical issues is kind of void given that he didn't even go in far enough to encounter a heavy. That's like complaining that XCOM is bad when you've never gotten far enough to encounter a Muton.
Yes, because nothing changes even after you get the argo and bigger mechs.
The early game optimal tactics remain optimal, You never need to max out your mech bays or any of the argo upgrades for that matter, and the story is dull and uninteresting, serving as little more than set piece missions.
and as far as difficulty goes: "oh look, its ANOTHER lance of heavy mechs!".
Real thrilling stuff.
Id stick to megamek and mekHQ.
Also, his complaint of the ai when the enemy had position behind him and it went around to shoot another mech. His mech was an overheated spider. It wasn’t a threat that’s why the ai didn’t target it. Also, they don’t even seem to know about things like brace, precise shot, or valor. If you didn’t play the game enough to even understand the very basic tactical elements you really shouldn’t be reviewing it.
Well... The question can be begged then if really simple strategies can propel them through the game, there really isn't a point to the advanced tactics is there?
Well I had decided I was bored enough to refund it before that point too apparently so I'd say it still stands
Funny that they bagged on The mercenary management because I found this to be quite endearing. You get who you get and they already come with personality. Not to mention all the merc team management is a direct homage to the original battle tech video games: Crescent Hawk’s inception, Revenge, and Mechwarrior 1
The way the initiative system works adds a lot of depth for the multiplayer, the AI is unfortunately too dumb to take advantage of it. That said, strategy is more important than you're giving it credit for and is the difference between losing a mech and barely taking any damage at all. It's not without faults (like the AI) but as a Battletech fan I loved the game and wanted something like this for ages.
I do strongly disagree about the UI, Battletech's UI was good and told you everything. I don't agree with Rich bitching about hardpoints either. Without them every chassis would be the same and the chassis with the highest available tonnage would automatically be the best (this was a HUGE problem in the older Mechwarrior titles, just because it's not how you remember it being doesn't make it better). It's also more accurate to Battletech lore to not have omnimechs during this period.
The gamelore specifically mentions that planetary bombardment is outlawed, just as nukes and bioweapons are. Chemical warfare is fine though.
Henry Gerard That's the world building equivalent of a lazy shrug.
The MechWarrior universe is impossible with even basic forms of planetary bombardment. You don't even need nukes. Any mass at relativistic speed, or even something heavy dropped from orbit, has the same devastating effect.
And it's "outlawed?" By whom? Who enforces that? We're to believe a bunch of mercenaries and feudal lords would avoid the most powerful weaponry available because someone wrote on a piece of paper that they shouldn't?
No, it's just that nukes ruin the fun, so they have to go away.
The existence of an in-lore explanation doesn't make it _not_ stupid.
At least Dune has the excuse of shields.
That is some pretty lazy writing.
There's a pretty good channel called Critical Rocket which helps to explain a lot of the lore behind the BattleTech universe, which has been developing for over 30 years.
The reason why it's "outlawed" is because all the major powers realized that if infrastructure gets sacrificed any more, they'll lose control of their ability to maintain Battlemechs. (Infact, some of that has already happened, resulting in "LosTech" that can't be built anymore) Since Battlemechs are their main source of power, it's basically an agreement of, "If anyone fucks over our ability to produce mechs, we will join forces and nuke that person out of existence," which results in everyone playing nice.
pmcdirewolf It's called a "war crime" genius. This isn't rocket science. If countries in real life can convene and agree to abide by a set of military conventions, like, say, at Geneva, then why is it beyond suspension of belief that the same could happen in a universe that mostly abide by historical realism?
I was pretty attached to that Gauss rifle...
Harebrained Scheme's BattleTech is one of the few games that I think could have actually benefited from a *downgrade* in overall graphics.
Besides the technical issues of crashing/optimization, a change in artstyle shifting to a more 2d/isometric archetype (that Harebrained
does wonderfully in their Shadowrun interpretations) could have freed up resources for deeper game play/story development. The game as it is (when it works) feels soulless and generic, which is sad to say considering Turn Based Tactical Games nowadays seem so few and far between...
It's probably not a fair comparison, but I think it says something when I have more hours playing "Into the Breach" than I do "HBS' BattleTech".
Even at that, the graphics looked like... something I could've seen 10 years ago. Bland lumpy grey and brown models. That doesn't exactly scream... graphical quality.
If the lighting effects were less overpowering and the colouration on the mechs brighter, that'd go a hell of a long way to making things more visually distinct. The use of colour in this is really weak from an interface standpoint.
They use these strong color filters that ends up making everything look bland and visually indistinct.
Is BattleTech replacing CSGO?
It could certainly be brightened up. Mechs look a little bland.
why did they replace the cat with that malformed turtle
Why is Rich yelling and why did you put him in a cave to do it in?
That is Rich's normal voice.
Played a lot of BattleTech and the Mechwarrior RPG in my younger days. My favorite of the video games set in this universe is the original _Mechwarrior_ by Activision from the late 80's. While Rich and Jack's criticism of this game is spot-on, I still enjoyed it. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug.
The problem is on a galactic scale democracy which is already really slow gets even slower. Imagine a election with people from planets millions of light years away. Even with some sort of faster than light travel it would still take years if not decades. The 40k universe also has a lot of feudalistic societys because of how colonyzing settlers organized themselves. The ones owning the giant fucking robots naturally grow into knight/warrior families gaining influence and respect because they are the only thing to protect early and small colonies which are often alone for decades. This turns over a few generation into noble houses with most of the power.
The Imperium of man might be slow and incredibly inneficient but that is every system on a galactic scale. While non-democratic systems don't need to wait on voting processes etc.
That's what federalism is for. You have relatively autonomous local government and only the issues that actually affect multiple regions get discussed at the federal level. Dictatorships/direct control monarchies are a hell of a lot harder to maintain in a large empire because in addition to the flow of information and goods required for administration you also have to maintain and deploy a considerable military to keep people in line. Ruling by consent is a lot less expensive than ruling by force, and large distances make ruling by force even more expensive.
+fat4eyes Kind of. But federalism works in reverse as well: a democratic outpost that is isolated from the main group will develop its own democracy and control, to the point that the larger structure either conflicts with it or becomes unnecessary (with the exception of military usage). Politics is driven by culture, and if your culture is local (planet-wide) then your politics will be too. Democracy does not perfectly scale, and we already see this problem in real world large democracies and post-federalism countries.
Dictatorships are actually better suited to federalism in some ways. An authoritarian hierarchy allows functionaries to establish autocratic outposts, with defined connections to the larger group. A dictator/king can assign a governor to a planet, give him power to do whatever he wants, and in exchange the empire gets taxes/tributes, natural resources, military resources, strategic positioning from a garrison, etc.
The one-way flow allows for isolated power centers without a conflict, besides the usual resentment and desire to *not* be oppressed. You could even establish local representative governments, as long as the governor maintains a monopoly on force, and continues to contribute resources upwards.
Dangerous Joy Feudalism is not "for" anything, no one invented it. It's not a "form of government." It's just the natural structure that develops out of despotism when no organization is strong enough to establish anything beyond regional control. The same way that an Empire is exactly the same structure in reverse, no regional powers are strong enough to defy the central structure.
To say "democracy has flaws" represents a baffling misunderstanding of government and Enlightenment ideas.
That's like saying life has flaws, so cancer is a better structure. Feudalism is a symptom of a diseased, dying society. It's just people looting and ruling over ruins.
Democracy is _known_ to have flaws. Many of those flaws exist _intentionally_ , as a form of separation of powers, to preserve the overall structure.
But it's the only form of government that has ever _existed_ in which you have _any_ voice, _any_ control.
All others are just rebranded authoritarianism. Even a benevolent philosopher king who writes up a brilliant Constitution for everyone to follow still does so _at their whim_ , and, thus, isn't functionally different from the mad tyrant who sends others to torturous deaths for their amusement. Indeed, previous despotic structures have made such transformations after just one king.
To say there'd be no democracy in space is only to say that despotic structures are empowered, _not_ that democracy is "inefficient" over long distances. What, you think feudal societies wouldn't be?
Given that FTL systems are overwhelmingly likely to be impossible, and that we live in an age where war _of any kind_ results in thermonuclear annihilation _now_ , let alone whatever nightmares the future could hold...
Well, we're either going to figure out democracy here on Earth, or we're going to be dead.
Indeed, even in Battletech's own universe, they could only colonize space under an egalitarian model _first_ . Because decentralized despotism is a destroyer of civilization, not a _model_ for where it's going.
That’s essentially what happened in the battletech universe. As people spread from earth you had to rely more on your blood relations for your protection than a popular government. A couple houses become very successful and then everyone enjoys life for 60~ or so years before the pseudo emperor dies and everyone fights each other so hard technology regresses to the industrial revolution
Dangerous Joy That's all you can make of my post? That's not much of a response. Am I supposed to disagree?
Yes, there are more options than Feudalism or "mob rule." But I'm assuming you meant by that direct democracy, which isn't mob rule, and also wasn't what I was talking about.
Democracy is an umbrella term that describes any form of government where power resides, however dubiously, in the consent of the governed, rather than by the dictates of some ruling army.
Whether you vote directly, elect representatives, or pull names out of a fucking hat, that's a democratic form of government, whether it's a republic it a parliamentary system or whatever.
If you mean it in that sense, then yeah, there is a dichotomy there. People either elect their leaders, or they are ruled by someone by force. That's not really a controversial observation.
So the idea that democracy "has flaws" is hopelessly missing the fucking point. You can _fix_ the flaws, at least in principle, because the system spreads power around with the assumption that most people will want to fix problems.
Non-democratic forms of government only exist to support the ruling oligarchy. To the extent it benefits anyone else might as well be accidental.
I don't know why that notion isn't obvious but, apparently it isn't.
The Flashpoint DLC helped quite a bit by giving missions with story outside the campaign, which broke up the tedium. NO idea why they shipped it without that included.
I remember playing Mechwarrior 3 and building a mech which was all heavy lasers and heatsinks and the worst engine and armour that the mech could take.
My tactic was to find a single enemy and aim at their leg and shoot every single laser at their leg. Even against an Atlas it would be a one hit kill, but also every time my mech would go into overheating shutdown.
Good game.
Rich, if you want a modern Mercenaries 2, then the closest is the free to play Mechwarrior Online game. You get money, you spend it on your fully customizable mechs, you fight battles that put you right into the action. Your squadmates are other random people, but that's life. It's the closest anything has come to Mercenaries in nearly 20 years.
Or just play MechWarrior Living Legends and support devs who don't enjoy suing modders for breakfast.
I wish we could hear their views on the Battletech DLC and Battletech Advanced or RogueTech mods which probably solve a lot of their concerns/issues.
i miss you Mike Stoklasa ..
rip
I can’t believe Mike died and Jay ran away with his life insurance money.
i honestly loved the game but i also agree with almost everything they discussed. Hopefully the developers improve. Makes me excited for the next one.
Odd complaints re:Mech customization.
They complain that all the mechs feel the same, and then complain about hardpoints. When you can fully customize any mech, then the only differentiator between mechs is tonnage. Every mech of a given tonnage becomes identical. With hardpoints, mechs have a bit of character. I know that a Hunchback 4G is going to be a walking cannon, whereas a -4P is ridiculously hot laser boat, and a -4SP is going to run a mix of lasers and missiles. With the game as is, I was excited to find a Dragon, because I knew it'd be an unusually fast heavy mech that I could tweak into a brawling king. If I could fully customize every mech, then the loot lust disappears. I don't need to track down a Firestarter to get my pyromania going, because any mech could be a Firestarter.
exactly.
Sounds like they just played enough to gripe about everything.
To be fair, the game communicates a lot of this very poorly. A lot of their critiques are fair for a player that isn't knee deep into the TT rules or TH-cam tutorials.
I'm loving the game but their complaints about lack of personality and excitement are warranted too.
And having to play another 8 hours for a chance to encounter that one mech variant that lets you turn mech x into the laser beast you want instead of the missile variant you have. I can see why that could feel limiting.
I enjoy trying to work with the limits of the random group of mechs I scavenged. But some more freedom to add a melee focused mech when I want one instead of when the game decides to offer me one, would be nice.
I think they probably should've had an early story mission where they demonstrate that variants can drastically alter the function of a mech. For example, they should've clearly showcased Catapult A1's before showing off Espinoza's Catapult K2.
The variety of mechs on offer is pretty good, as far as I've played, so your point about not getting access to the right variant doesn't really work. Sure, you might not get access to the 4P hunchback for a while, but you do get access to Orion K's and Blackknights (both of which are energy boats) You might not get the missile boat catapult you want, but you do get access to trebuchet's and such that can be repurposed into missile boats. And you get access to Jagermechs and such almost immediately, if you want to try to make an AC-boat work. (although I wouldn't recommend it)
Speaking of Jagermechs, that ties into my only real complaint about the hardpoint system. Ballistic hardpoints are overabundant, and underutilized. Because they split off small lasers, flamers and, particularly, machine guns into the support weapon hardpoints, there's no light option to jam into a ballistics hardpoint. You can always shove a 1 ton Medium laser, or a 1 ton Srm-2 into a spare energy or missile slot, but the lightest ballistic weapon is the 6 ton AC2. Most of the ballistic heavy mechs can't actually use all their ballistic hardpoints, because even putting the AC2 into all the slots eats up almost all your tonnage.
DRY AND IS NOT A MYTH. YET!
Richard Byrd The wrinkle in Jack's shirt had me confused for the first 20 minutes.
Really glad I'm not the only person bothered by this
DRY SAND IS NOT A MYTH. YET!
You see, that shirt had me. I hate when sand is dry - it's coarse, and rough, and irritating, and it gets everywhere.
dry land is not a myth yet.... its from water world movie with kevin costner
Really? I find the game to be frighteningly addictive, one of the best pc games in a loooong time. It's like they played a different game than I did. Sometimes you don't need a whole lot of variation between mission types when the core gameplay is so much fun, see the original Xcom game and Syndicate as examples.
For all times and all place "giant robots are awesome" is an universal rule.
sync232 Unless they are in a Michael Bay film. He makes giant robots boring and stupid.
Unless it's 2018's Battletech, oh no...
I love all the clips of game play are misplays. I think the games great but it definitely needs to do a better job explaining how the different weapons work and what ranges you use them at and what mechs they work with best.
This is great and all, but how do I choose my MECH's gender and racial identity?
Negative man lol
I think the main problem with the combat is twofold: movement and shooting. In mechwarrior games, you can push your mech out of cover, take some good shots, and back up into cover again. You cant do that in this game. Once you move that's it. Just wait to get shot. They needed to add movement points. "Ok, I have 7 movement points. I'm going to use 3 to pop out from this canyon, then fire my lasers, and use my last 4 movement to get back into cover.". That would be fun. Also, the main source of strategy in these games are shot placements. In every mechwarrior game, you can choose to focus fire on key components and whittle away the enemy. An enemy mech has a ppc on their right arm? Blow it off first. Instead, they made called shots a damn inspiration ability. I shouldn't be restricted to calling shots to once per kill. It takes away the fun and strategy, so now you are forced to just shoot in their general direction. If you want to focus a side, you need to move around them. But you cant really because movement is a chore.
MrAluminumJacket You’re not using reserve actions enough. Lighter mechs can wait and at the end of the round move and shoot without worrying they get hit before their turn comes round again. With the right talent you can shoot next round and move back into cover and heavier mechs can’t do much about it.
I would also say that the further along you get into the game this becomes a very important strategy. I have never made more use of flanking and jump Jets, and “precision” shots. you do exactly what you say… examine which component has the LRM ammo or the PPC and focus as hard as you can on that. you are thinking of moving it as a separate activity, but remember it’s all about initiative. this is exactly the way the table top has always been. Also Mechwarrior ( the pen and paper rpg ) always had non trivial modifiers for aimed shots. You may have ignored them when playing or did what we all did and churned our characters with amazing skill sheets. ;)
is the table replacing the empty void ... that is my life
I found that the main gameplay problem with battletech is that it was infinitely more efficient to just kill all the enemies, as doing a 'hit and run' just doesn't work, as the enemies shoot you from behind, and the reinforcements that spawn between you and the LZ will shoot you from the front.
I'm a big fan of battletech so I enjoyed it, but I can understand why others won't get drawn in by the reasons y'all stated.
Anyone ever play one of those old School Battletech cockpit arcade games? Look it up! Super dope!
juntistik I remember playing it at Dave and Buster's. One of the best aspects of my childhood.
Mechwarrior 2 Mercenaries was the first PC game I ever bought, and I loved it. Kind of surprising that nobody's managed to top it in 22 years of game development.
I'm with Rich. I want someone to develop a space mercenary business management game now. That'd be awesome. Or Patrician III in space. I'd be totally fine with that.
rich is being his usual comfy self, jack is wearing his new al gore shirt, the new set is cute, and everyone's happy!
jonsburyhill rofl!
Rich should be wearing an All Gorn shirt.
I thought it was a water world shirt.
@Joseph: Me too. After all, Jack is a known aficionado of horrible shlocky fun, he's a fan of the Universal Studios Waterworld attraction, and I can't remember him ever mentioning Al Gore.
Does Rich know about MechWarrior 4: Mercenaries? He can do all of those things he wants.
It should still be free. Plus, you can pilot the Behemoth Mech.
What is going on with the color temperature in Jack's angle? It keeps shifting from cool to warm.
Love Rich and Jack, LOVE Battletech!
18:08 I loved MW2:Merc, and Rich is right about the customization. The "bad" side effect was that mechs didn't feel unique on their own, and it was a linear upgrade path to just get raw tonnage. But the great part was that you could build what you want once you found a chassis whose movement you liked.
The hardpoints system isn't new, it came in with MW4, I think. But I think that offered some variant chassis that would give you 2-3 hardpoint configuration options. And it's still a lot less fun than MW2, without adding anything to the gameplay (except maybe lining up with the tabletop rules).
Mechwarrior Mercenaries 2 & 4 were such great games. Game developers were allowed to include fun back then.
I'm absolutely hooked - I've put in ~50 hours so far and I still savor every combat encounter. I agree on the camera issues. There are also some pacing issues in combat that can be solved with a quick mod, but otherwise I think every other system is pretty well thought out and engaging.
On the topic of the "ship" (the Argo), I don't think it's a big deal at all, since spaceships aren't the point of the game. It's just your base. You don't pick your base location in XCOM and I've never minded that. I could see them adding different "base" options in a sequel, but given their limited resources I think they spent time on the right things.
Solid recommend from me.
Mechwarrior 5 Mercenaries is supposed to come out this year...
They definitely played for less than 2 hours.
Regarding the combat; the game gets a bit more fun when you understand the heat and stability mechanics and how to abuse them. Its tough to get there, but getting a mech with stacked LRMs and nuthin else is legit cause you can knockdown enemies and get free called shots, and salvage is based on if you can preserve the legs and centre torso
The handwave for nukes and missiles is that they had several centuries long succession wars, in the early ones it was the happy free for all, let's nuke every resource in sight until somebody figured that if they carried on like that they would have to chuck rocks at each other, so they declared attacking resources as off limits and for centuries most factions could barely maintain their equipment, let alone build new stuff.
Rich you tap that desk if you want to!
I was waiting for you guys to do videogame reviews =D! keep them coming!
Rich, Mechwarrior V is coming out later this year or next year and it's exactly what you're describing with Mechwarrior 2 updated for modern times.
Well I rather enjoyed it but I respect your opinions! good day sir's
That last fatality might be the coolest one I've ever seen in the series
And btw weapons are hardbuilt into the mechs. It was true to the table top. Variants of Mech's with alternation weapon hardpoints do exist... but those are in the game as well.
Just going back through re-watching some old Pre-Rec stuff, and I see Jack/Rich pretty much being down on the game, so just out of curiosity I checked reviews for Battletech. Just a quick Google-fu and I see a 78 on metacritic with "Generally favorable" reviews & a 7.0 User score, a 94% Google User's score, a 7/10 on Steam with Very Positive recent/Mostly Positive overall score, and a Pre-Rec review that is "meh" at best and "It sucks" at worst.
Don't get me wrong I love RLM and liked Pre-Rec as an extension of that, as an extended RLM time with Jack, Rich, and sometimes Jay (and in the early days every blue moon with Mike and Jessi) with an added bonus of video games. But good god, something kept these guys from ever being able to be decent game reviewers. When it comes to movies, they're top notch, when it comes to games... well, not so much. I don't know if it's their personalities or what, but between Jack's 'casual' gamer leaning, and Rich's inability to like anything aside from a few certain genre staples and unwillingness to compromise on anything even for the sake of a review, they missed the mark on more game reviews more than they even got close to the target.
I have played this game. It is a bad game, for the reasons they are saying. Its boring to look at, boring to play, and such a missed opportunity. I disagree with one point they said: if XCOM didnt exist, this would still be a bad game.
No, they're correct. It's a bad game with not that much effort put into AI or even gfx detail or variety.
They are right about this game. I tried so hard to like it but it isn't a good game. Huge waste of potential for a game that on paper ought to be my dream game.
hardpoints have been part of just about every MW game
It's got a Charlie Rose on PBS feel.
god damn it, i wanna know what the original intro was.
A 30 minute long rant on Israel
"Unsolicited opinions on Israel"
Interestingly, the makers of BattleTech just finished making three games with very XCOM-like combat in the Shadowrun trilogy. Unfortunately their next game, Necropolis, was so bad that I was in no hurry to jump on BattleTech without hearing more about it first. I'm not sure they're a company that's particularly good at stepping outside of their comfort zone.
Sounds like you guys want to play mechwarrior 5 mercenaries
Sure, the game is generic and kinda shallow, but not as shallow as they complain it is. You dont just focus fire a mech - you focus parts. There's no point of flanking if you're hitting the front at the same time. In some situations you even turn your back to the enemy when your front armor has been shredded. Same as turning the busted arm away from the enemy to soak up some with your healthy side. And the effective distance plays a role too. They say it's always go forward and shoot the bad guys, and going tactical gives little advantage. Mb it's true, but plyaing tactical is more fun. You can go aroung the map a bit before scans spot you, use a scout to scanlock and do some missile damage beforehand, drag enemies in a line while you're climbing some hill etc etc. It's not about just winning, its about taking the least damage possible.
aww man. The last thing I want from a giant robot game is strategy and turns. I want a good modern version of Earthsiege.
I love the new set. Good job guys!
Also, Rich said "regardless of what the objection is". I hope someone informed Mike.
25:00 But, they're making it...
orly? sauce???
watch?v=r8WoNTHMoLc
I was waiting for a mention of Mech Commander, the 90's top down mech computer game. Always loved that series
If you're living in Milwaukee, fighting villains from afar, you gotta find first gear in your giant robot car.
Mechwarrior 1 is the game that needs to be remade. Like Rich says, the contract negotiating was a lot more fun. Davion, Steiner, Kurita, Liao, and Marik all had different dynamics in how they'd negotiate. Some you could demand way more from. Some, if you demanded more, they'd shut you down and you'd have to leave the planet because they'd basically blacklist you. Some Houses would give you accurate intel on your mission. Others, like Marik, would lie to you and you'd sign on for a basic mission and be sent on a mission you could barely win. It made it interesting.
Also, one thing I don't think any of the later MechWarrior games did, MW1 had a tactical overview you could access to order your lancemates around on the map, order them to attack enemy mechs, get to certain objectives, etc. This one time I was on a particularly hard mission and my mech got totaled. Leg got shot off, and I was there immobile on the ground. But my reactor wasn't messed up, and I was still alive. So despite my mech being a total mobility kill, I accessed the tactical overview screen and had my lancemates to complete the mission.
Imagine that in a modern MechWarrior game. Not just a first person mech simulator, but accessing an overhead tactical map where you can order lancemates around, set up ambushes, order some mechs to achieve one objective while you go for another, it would be extremely handy. And if you got your mechs legs shot off, you could still complete a mission.
MW1 also had a neat hidden feature. You could buy mechs on planets with battlemech factories, where you could get them cheaper than most places, then ship them to far off planets where they'd pay handsomely for new mechs. You'd make a killing as a battlemech trader. You could make far more than actually being a mercenary.
MW1 obviously had some serious problems due to its age and limitations but whenever I play it I'm imagining "What would this be like if it was remade today with all the bells and whistles, but with the exact same core ideas?"
I'm pleasantly surprised that Rich is into Battletech. I wanted to suggest the Mechwarrior games to him seeing as he loves Tie Fighter but I'm glad I don't need to.
A good scifi solution to the nuke problem would be that people can scan for radioactive materials and they can stop any uranium enrichment before it happens but I've yet to see that used.
A lot of us that were huge fans of the tabletop game had been yelling at them for a long time to change some things and they didn't listen. And yeah, being stuck on that story sucked - I immediately wanted an option to betray her for the cash.
BlazingOwnager Oh god RIGHT!?!?! My brother and I were furious about that.. wish we could get our money back
I miss Rich's giant pixel art, but the background does look good. Think the lighting reflecting off the material is making it look off. The table could also use a potted plant.
Everything seems to be in focus.
You know, when you jumped your mech and exposed your back you may well have generated a bunch of evasion pips from the movement. Just because your back was exposed doesn't mean you were easy to hit. With all the talk of "just stand there and shoot" and no mention of evasion I wonder if you missed that entire mechanic? I found the early game to be very movement-centric. It's true that by the end when you have an all Assault lance combat really does become mostly about standing and shooting, but that was a definite change.
You also need to remember this game is clearly marked as an adaption of the battletech tabletop system where combat is pretty slow and back and forth. If that's not for you that is fine, but it's not a failing of the game there - it does what it said it would do. In fact, this game speeds things up a lot with the addition of the Called shot ability (which you also don't mention, did you miss it too?) which makes it much easier to kill stuff dead. In the tabletop you are basically sandpapering enemy mechs to death with sorta rare critical hits thrown in.
A lack of mech variety is a problem, but part of it was caused by some company being patent trolls on a bunch of mechs which prevented them being added.
You compare XCOM's UI when moving units. In XCOM you can also only see how far a unit can move when you select a unit, but somehow XCOM is better in ways you don't explain? BT also shows the movement range, every dot is a spot you can move to, different coloured dots show terrain modifiers and a tooltip explains them if you haven't memorised them. BT can't just have an outline like XCOM because cover isn't always an edge of something like in XCOM, in XCOM you always want to run to a wall or a car or some other cover, in BT you might want to run to any given spot in range. If you can't tell the difference between a white dot and a green dot you might have some colour blindness issues, but even then the terrain tooltip has the information so long as you can read.
You complain that you cannot customise your mercs. That's fair, but it's hardly a unique thing. Some games let you customise the characters you find or meet, others present characters as is. Even Xcom didn't let you modify the plot characters. The devs have already announced they are adding the ability to customise your mercs soon though. It's weird you bring up Darkest Dungeon as a counter example here too, it's not like you can customise your hires in that. They come with their look and traits and will can afflictions randomly.
Comparisons to XCOM and complaints about the voice acting seem unfair. Firaxis is a huge studio making AA if not AAA games. BT is from a pretty small studio who funded the game on kickstarter. In your movie reviews you don't shit on B movies for not looking as good as Avatar or whatever £10billion summer blockbuster, so why not have the same consideration for games?
You also complain that you can only customise your mechs by changing the paint job. Now perhaps you only meant visually, but that's not what you said. Why don't you mention that you can completely change the weapons, armour, or jumpjets of your mechs? There's a lot you can do to change them, and the same model of mech will play totally differently if you load it up with Medium lasers, AC/20s, or tons of LRMS.
Taking 50% damage when you don't move, "I guess that's a game-changer"??? Yes, that is a huge change. I mean, I would argue that skill is far too much of a game changer and is why the late game devolves into stand-and-shoot, but you seem to imply it's not much of a change.
I agree the story isn't very interesting, but as Rich says it's possible to have your character just not care. You are also never forced to do the story mission, if you just want to fly about being a merc you can just do that.
Ah, you do finally get onto mech customisation. And you make a bunch of stupid claims. There is nothing that says "You must have exactly 3 missile weapons on this mech", it's true you might be only able to have up to 3 missile weapons, but that is not the same thing at all. There is nothing that says "This is the long range missile robot" because long and short range missiles are interchangeable. The hardpoint system is a key part of battletech and for someone who says they are a fan of the setting you sure seem to be ignorant of it. The entire point is that the making of battlemechs is almost a lost art by this stage - they are rare and a lot of the mechs still in service aren't necessarily the optimal models, they are the ones that were made in bulk for exports or were shitty and not in frontline service when the big wars destroyed almost everything. People can barely service these things in the setting, they certainly can't rip out all the missile launching systems to put lasers there, frankly it is a stretch to be able to take out one type of missiles to put another in. The reason you could do more in Mechwarrior 2 is because it was set further in the future of the setting where a faction who has preserved more of their tech were producing new "omnimechs" which had universally swappable systems. This was a revolution in the terms of HMS Dreadnaught. Also, from a gameplay point of view, free customisation lets you just load up on spreadsheet optimal loadouts and all mechs might as well be the same. With limited hardpoints you have a sense of progress when you manage to salvage (another mechanic you don't mention) or buy mechs with better hardpoints or just ones you prefer. "Mech pokemon" was one of my favorite parts of the game. With all that said, you can generally swap mech loadouts a fair bit, there are very few mechs which only have one type of hardpoint.
I agree more merc business sim would be good. But typing in your own numbers would be the most tedious bullshit. Hmm, I want lots of money, so I'll type in "$10,000,000" oh they said no. Ok, "$9,000,000",nope. Hmm, "$50,000" oh ok they would but I want more "$100,000"? Yes. Uh, "$5,000,00? Yes! "$7,000,000", oh, no. Imagine another 10 steps until you settle on "$6,178,054".
They don't just give you a better ship, you have to go down to where it's crashed, fight out the pirate squatters, and repair it. It's pretty well earned. If the concept of killing dudes to take their stuff seems like a bad mechanic to you, or even the game giving you stuff as part of the storyline feels terrible to you then I don't know you you deal with 95% of games. It's interesting that this seems like news to Jack as I think this happens like 3-4 story missions in, it's certainly less than half way through the story. I guess he didn't play very much before making this review, eh? It's another point where Rich seems to have no clue about the setting he is such a fan of, there's no "Dropship stores" here. Jack's wearing a Waterworld shirt, why doesn't Fishgills just go to the boat shop and buy a new Catamaran or have the local papermill churn out a few thousand A4s for him? Why'd he drinking pee water when he could pop into costco and buy a gross of evian? Oh, because the entire world is flooded and there's no infrastructure for that!
One of my games I had 3 medium 'mechs do nothing but move and Brace and not attack anything, so it naturally became a slog to pick one out to punish with my focus fire. Like you said, tedious.
So this is a game made in 2018 with one decent idea or two but the rest of the games traits are 15, 20+ years old.
That's exactly why it got 2 millions on kickstarter, yup.
I just watched an E3 stream on IGN and some guy said "It's awesome because at the end we see Master Chief's helmet". Guys, we're really gonna need that Nerd Crew E3 special.
Isn't Mech Warrior 5 a thing?
merten0083 yeah, but it will have the hardpoint thing for sure.
Yes thank god, then it can help us forget this abomination of a turd
I'd say this is a pretty fair review. If you don't know much about Battletech lore, you're not really going to get much enjoyment from this game. And the missions can become monotonous after a while.
But, the fact that Jack didn't know that your crew is given the Argo tells us that he didn't play very far in the game. I think you are given that ship after about 4 - 5 missions.