Finally someone acknowledges the fact that perez was acutally entitled to a carwidth of space and lando didn't left him any. And it's the same with both perez v leclerc incidents. The problem is that the FIA let incidents like these slide in the past years, and olny gave penalties a few times. So i get it when someone says they weren't penalizing this in the past years so these penalties were undeserved. And i somewhat agree, BUT forcing other drivers off track should not be allowed. I'm very happy they handed out these penalties and i hope they will keep doing this. Because these rules are exactly what encourage wheel to wheel racing. Imagine if lanod and perez would have kept the battle on in turn 5 and 6.
@@chazgordon6409 this is dumb. If Perez holds the line to keep the space he crashes into Lando. Lando purposefully squeezed him and deserved the penalty.
@@chazgordon6409 on the first leclerc-perez incident, the contact occurred in the middle of the track. Perez then definitely ran leclerc off (and deserved a penalty), but imo, the contact itself was more leclerc chopping the corner and not running out to the edge of the track. I think perez would've run him off regardless, though
The first Leclerc incident I thought was a definite penalty, Leclerc was well ahead on corner entry so Perez was not entitled to run him wide. The second incident, Leclerc had lost position well before the corner exit but still stayed in it and then Perez oversteered into him. So that's a racing incident to me, yeah Perez punted him off but he also wasn't entitled to be there anymore.
I remember there was one race at Monza, Alonso left space on the outside for Kimi at turn 3 or 4, while Vettel or somebody else didn’t do likewise. Alonso were praised for sportsmanship in the post-race analysis.
It's not a matter of it being possible or not. It's not like we didn't have 4 races here in 2 years (6 in 4) and had plenty of exemples. It's a matter of drivers racing each other to the limit, and beyond. You need a LOT of compliance from both parties to go along side by side. If one of them decide to defend his position, like it happened MANY times over the last years that WE judged not punishable (and for a reason WE agreed to "let them race"), then one of them is going to end up in the gravel, by his own move.
the Norris-Perez incident is pretty clear, they were next to each other and it's not like Norris "didn't leave enough space", he even used the kerbs pushing Perez off the track like nobody was there. if this is just a racing incident, overtaking in F1 will become very difficult...
Lando squeezed Checo and deserved the penalty BUT be accurate in that Lando was not on the curbs - Checo was on the curbs and eventually half off in the gravel, but as a RedBull fan I have ask if anyone thinks it was good move to try with 67 more laps left on a track with 3 drs zones and Checo will have drs and Lando won’t because Max was more than 1 second ahead? Does any one else think that Checo could have 2nd on the podium if he just waits to pass Lando in one or two more laps using drs in turn 1 or turn 3 or before turning into turn 4? Geez 67 laps left with a race winning under him and he tries that move there- WHY? Love Checo but he is going to lose his seat if he continues with that kind of decision making.
@@mattbilello6229 yeah checo just need to Patient, just few more lap he can overtake lando with drs. But i still insist the penalty awarded to lando is still the right decision.
@@mattbilello6229 Especially knowing that Lando did the exact same thing 2 corners earlier on T1 during the restart and Checo complained he was pushed off. Checo could see Lando's line going into T3 wasn't going to leave him any space. He was an idiot not backing out. Yes, Lando was at fault for not leaving space and deserved the penalty he got. But, Checo ruined his own race.
FIA in a nutshell LOL {Put tracks no one wants on the calendar, give 5sec time penalties, favour dominant teams (allowing Mercedes to clear Hamilton's slp's in 2020 for just £40,000 or something, and not penalising Ferrari for breaking the engine regs in 2019, and not publishing the result on their investigation.), and cause controversies.
One of the things I find interesting is when the driver "has the line". I think it's an unspoken thing in F1 (someone correct me if I'm wrong, a gentlemans agreement persay) but one of the dependencies on these incidents is who reaches that corner ahead of the over taking or defending driver. Usually in respectful racing we usually see the driver thats behind yield to the driver ahead going into the turn, usually to compensate or prepare for if the car ahead oversteers. I think it should've just been a noted incident with no further action being taken.
I think penalty is deserved. Go and check Kimi vs Schumi 2012 Brazil battle both of them leave enough space to another. Then go check 2019 Austrian Gp Max overtaking Charles, Leclerc didn't had any chance to defend, Max just pushed him off. This kills racing. I still think that Max had to given penalty in 2019 and Lando's or Perez's moves are should be illegal. Another example to this is Mick vs Mazepin at France this year. Mazepin just pushed Mick off so he can't defend, I think this is unfair.
In my view all the overtakingpenalties were very well decided. As soon as a car is at least half besides you, you have to leave a space. Otherwise it would be allowed to just shove someone off at a corner, because iT wAS tHe OutSidE AnD mY caR RaN WiDe
you don't have to read the rule book, You can just follow f1 races and community and you'll understand eventually. Btw I started watching f1 this year and I think I understood .
I find it’s more the consistency of implementing the rules race to race is difficult for everyone, drivers included. There’s no reason the overtaking rules can’t be simplified. I also feel that making sure you have space to compete your move is the responsibility of the overtaking car, as you know that the racing line will squeeze you out if you don’t make it ahead of the car you’re passing, so if you can’t do it either back off or say good bye to the track and brace for your off road “penalty”. I felt like Sergio and Charles were being overly aggressive in trying to send those passes, and got the consequences of trying to make something impassable stick. For me, the rule should be no weaving or pushing cars off track on the straight and the cars should stick to their chosen racing line once in the breaking zone, and it’s the responsibility of the car behind has to make the pass work. Simple.
It's really not as difficult as this video makes it look like. If you overtake in the inside, it's fairly simple. You only have to be at least half way along side to claim space. But you are not allowed to divebomb (attacking the corner so fast, you can't make the corner without crashing into the other car, or without driving off the track). If you do an overtake on the outside, than there are 2 "fases" that matter. Fase 1 is breaking. If you are fully (not halfway!!) alongside then you claim space for the breaking zone untill the apex. Fase 2 starts at the apex of the corner. Are you still completely alongside of the other car or even in front? If no, back out, you have no right for space. But if you are, than you claim the space, the defending party has to change his acceleration to not run wide into you. Chainbear explains it very well with image, might be interesting to check that out.
Thanks for the video, I just started watching formula 1 and at the Austrian Grand Prix I didn't understand some of the rules for overtaking so some of the penalties to me I didn't understand besides Yuki Sanoda's
I don't see how there's much to argue here. The attacking cars got alongside the defending car in the corner, the defending cars pushed the attacking car out wide. You don't force a car off to take a piece of track when they're already there. Like it was explained in the video, if they're not equal or ahead of the car, they're not "entitled" to that space. You see this often, defending cars will take over the line mid corner and the attacking cars are not alongside enough that they will usually back out of it so they don't lose much time or risk crashing. But the cars ARE alongside each other in this instance, and saying it's anyone else's fault than the one pushing the car off the road is really silly.
Exactly, you can’t just run people off. If drivers know they’re going to be pushed off the road, they won’t even try in the first place. Drivers need to be able to trust that they will get the space they deserve. As for the people who say outside passes don’t deserve space, that is absolute nonsense, and contrary to popular belief, the outside is often the better line, as your exit speed will be greater than the inside car.
@@qwertyplatypus2174 you cant defend breaking a rule by saying "it was racing". It wasnt fair play, it ruined the race for Checo, i think Lando deserved the penalty
@@Jakaj99 Look I think both drivers - Checo and Norris - have brake pedals so your of the opinion because Checo took the outside line and braked very deep into tight right hander that down hill sloping that Norris should have stopped accelerating out of the corner and braked to give Checo the space. Some would argue that Checo should tapped his brakes maintained position set up the pass later. Fair enough and ok Lando got a penalty but let’s not forget he never made contact with Checo and Checo could have braked knowing the down slope nature of the turn puts all cars on the outside exiting the corner. Norris did not actually physically force Checo off the track but he did limit Checo’s options. The shame of all it is that blaming Norris doesn’t change the fact that Checo really did not need to try that move there - 67 laps left on track with 3 drs zones and Lando wouldn’t have drs because max is too far ahead. Don’t you think RB told Checo after the race you could have been 2nd on the podium if he waited to pass Lando with drs in turn 1 or turn 3 or before turning into turn 4 a couple of laps later? 5 second penalty still gave Lando a podium is Lando really going to do anything different if presented with the same situation at a later race? I doubt it. Will Checo do same thing again early in a race later in the year? I hope not.
@@Jakaj99 Lando had an incident at the french GP where Gasly pushed him so far out that even Gasly was completely off the track. Lando backed out because he hit the brake and attacked a bit later. No penalty for Gasly. Maybe the attacking driver should realize when it's simply not working and back out.
My issue with the penalties is that Lando did the exact same thing to Checho on turn 1 after the safety car restart. What's the difference between turn 1 and turn 4? Gravel run off vs asphalt, that's the difference and that's why the penalties were given, not due to the move itself but due to what's on the outside.
I think both the action and the consequence must be taken into account. T1 has big tarmac runoff, it was the first turn after restart, so the incident was treated lightly. You don't judge a failed attempt murder / assault and a first degree murder the same way in real life, don't you?
@@truongnguyendac2032 considering they're both felonies that's a bad example. And they didnt even note the incident at turn 1. The only difference between the incidents at T1 and T4 is what's on the outside. Both were on the safety car restart so if you say one is due to that and a racing incident then both should be.
Confused ... where did you find those rules? Last time I checked, there was no such thing as "side by side on the outside" nor "half a car length on the inside" but it was just said that has long as the driver as any part of its car along ide the other car, he cannot be force out of the track limits. I would not be surprised that the regulation has changed, but it would have been interesting to quote the regulation paragraph and such when illustrating a specific point. And by the way, the illustration about the "1 car space" is wrong. The space should be on the other side, since the rules says that when a driver has defended outside the racing line and is approaching the braking zone, he is allowed to come back toward the racing line but should leave a 1 car space. Since the racing line in the zone toward the braking zone is on the outside, that's where the space should have been illustrated.
There is a rule that defines, that the attacking cars front axis has to be on the same high oder higher compared to the back axis of the defending car. If this is in case, the attacking car is allowed to move inside a corner next to the defending car. In other cases the attacking car's to far away.
You forgot to mention that a car is considered alongside if the front tire from the overtaking car is ahead of the driver itself (or sidepods but that's the same)
I can never get over the fact that overtaking around the outside is pretty much forbidden in F1. It almost sounds like "Trying to overtake on the outside is such a crime, you deserve to be pushed off the track."...
In my eyes it was a fair penalty, it isn't hard racing to force a driver of track to keep your position or stop the other car. I think the Stewards did the right thing, your opinion?
@@KitKitChanIsaac what I think kills racing is anytime someone tries to overtake on the outside you could just push them off. I think this rules helps racing if anything
I think the time penalties were fine too, I just feel like the penalty points are a bit harsh considering so many drivers are close to a race ban even though none have done anything too dangerous.
I respect ur opinion but I don't agree.. I think perez was too impatient and he took the risk to overtake on the outside while the advantage was more for Norris. That decision caused in him running out of tarmac and on to the gravel while lando was on the racing line. Same with perez and leclerc,leclerc was too aggressive and just wanted to get through,tho I do think perezs first penalty was kinda fair because he kinda drove into leclerc,but the second one not really,I think it was leclerc being too aggressive.
Yes I think they need to follow the Highway code, applied to F1 too, if a car is by your side you have to give it all the space and can't push it out, only time you can cut another driver is if his car is if you have completely overtaken him and the overtaken car is now well behind the challenger's car, then it would be safe to do so as there will be no provision for a collision, that means constantly keeping an eye for the defending driver not still within any part of the challengers car's side even if just an inch, so cutting corners not allowed on bends when overtaking and race line aborted by both drivers to accomodate one another.
I'd like to see a new analysis of overtaking focusing on the numerous incidents between Max and Lewis because maybe it is just the FIA inconsistency but I've been completely confused about what is and isn't ok when fighting for a corner this year. It just doesn't seem right when a driver just runs another car off the track because what is the other driver supposed to do? stop?
In regatta sailing, there's also an eternal debate on who has right to room, but it's relatively easy to find the answer due to fixed parameters. With some exceptions, outside vessels just have to give room to all inside vessels near a buoy if they were alongside in time*. Both sailors and umpires can judge distances between sailboats and buoys, so they can act accordingly. In F1, you'd even be able to mark areas on the track. Of course every situation is different because that's where the fun comes in, but F1 could also just have fewer rules making it easier to follow and judge *Alongside means you have a line drawn at 90° through the aftmost (furthest back) point of the outside vessel and any part of the inside vessel is in front of that. I don't see why we can't use the same metric in F1. In time means the moment one of them gets within 3 hull lengths of the buoy. This could be like 100 meters or so in F1 and zones can be determined beforehand on an F1 track
How many cars has LeClerc destroyed dive bombing at this point? Beyond that, Alonso vs Russell clearly showed how to race wheel to wheel and leave space. Norris broke too late with zero intent to leave space as the analysis from Palmer broke down. Penalty earned.
@@AJ--212 so you think pushing someone into the gravel illegally and forcing everyone behind to deal with a car that's now significantly slower than the rest at that point of the track and could cause further collisions is not worthy enough of points. He made the race unsafe same way Perez did later.
@@tryphonx You don't have to leave space/yield unless a car is alongside you. Where Perez was Norris had no chance to even see where he was, they can barely turn their heads and barely even see the tops of their own tyres. If a car trying to pass isn't actually alongside the car it's attempting to pass, they either back off or run off track, Norris did nothing wrong. Any F1/experienced racing driver that's analyzed the situation has said the same thing. Norris did nothing wrong.
Divebombs deserve the most respect ✊ They are the most sophisticated form of overtaking of course. There’s no more satisfying way of making a fool of your opponent than by showing how much better of a late braker you are than them. Why should I be penalized if it only takes me 50m to brake when it takes them 100m? *lifts pinky fancifully while sipping fine wine
I will send this to my dad.😂 Also I and my dad love Schumi and my dad always makes the joke that when Schumi squeezed someone off he always said: ”I was trying to help him.” 😂
What F1 should do about their passing rules. 1 - The car that is not ahead is deemed to alongside once the front wheel makes it past the rear wheel of the lead car. The leading car going into a corner must give a car width from the end point of the corner, or is considered at fault. The width applies to both the inside and outside of an apex, meaning once the rear car is ahead of the front cars rear wheel, the rear car also must apply to the same width when driving off the apex out of the corner. Once the car that is not ahead is in this position, the lead car must not take that width away until safety past the car in back. 2. The car in the rear must be ahead prior to the apex in order for that vehicle to now be able to switch as the lead car. Same rules as above now apply with apex car widths. If the car in the rear does not get past prior to the apex, then rule 1 still applies to them and they are the lead car only needs to give a car width. This way, if you want to make a dive on the inside, you better know you will have to lead as well as be able to be at a slow enough speed as to not push the other off the track. Same with overtaking vehicles making dangerous maneuvers. Have all these be penalties and drivers will be much safer.
Really do like your videos wtf1 and they are very entertaining, but in this instance I think chainbear explained it perfectly, and I do agree more with him
God that is the most abused and misused quote in F1; no, you don't always have to leave space. This is second only to the extremely misused quote from Senna "If you don't go for a gap you're no longer a racing driver", which is just a ridiculous excuse he used for coldly crashing into another driver to take him out of the race.
Excludos …the driver that crashed him out a year earlier. But, I kind of agree, there are a few circumstances where you don’t need to leave space, but in the three cases in Austria, it was pretty clear cut.
@@McPlayer8t You're right, it was clear cut, but not in the way you think. Since I'm bored of repeating myself for the 10th time across numerous threads in here, I'm going to be lazy and just leave this here for you: www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.aero-tweaks-new-tyres-and-the-cost-cap-the-2021-f1-rules-and-regulation.r1cq36aI6bvzMeZtiFru3.html Perez was not equal to Norris, so he did not have right of way. Leclerc was ahead of Perez in both circumstances, so he did have the right of way.
Excludos The thing is, Perez DID momentarily get ahead of Norris, so it depends if that is enough to apply the rule. In my opinion, the outside car still needs space, they can’t just disappear the moment they lose an inch to the inside car. Honestly though, I think we are diving too deep here, the simple facts are that in all cases, the drivers knew about the cars on the outside and plainly ran them out of road, and that is not the type of driving we want to encourage. Also, the link you left has nothing on overtaking, it’s just technical stuff.
damn I always dive bomb,switch direction to defend,pusother players or AI near the edge when defending etc,guess I'll not be able to finish a season irl
I always push incoming ai to the walls on straights and reset till i get away with no penalties. Must always defend that P18 like a champ. (jk, I did do it to Bottas for p2 tho)
reniel fanini You won’t believe me given the context of this discussion, but Hamilton always crashes right behind me or even into me, I need two hands to count how many times this has happened. I honestly don’t know why, he just loses the rear and smacks the nearest wall whenever I’m around. He hit me and spun into the wall in the season finale once, and he lost the title to Bottas.
@@McPlayer8t bro. I believe you. I have to become an airplane pilot around corners sometime. sometimes i am minding my own business and some random ai launches out of nowhere.
@@mahejo if you are asking me, I play with sim damage, regular rules. ABS off and tc off. I been changing the rules to full sim but the ai is crazy sometimes
I don't understand the argument that the penalty on Lando was harsh. Allowing drivers to do what he did would completely stop the ability to overtake around the outside, an outcome which people would unanimously think is worse for racing.
I think they should do what they do in horse racing. With a Steward explanation with head on video. Can be shown after the race. That way the stewards explanation is known with example shown.
it's pretty simple... if under attack you choose to stay inside, you have to let space outside so the 5 sec was correct, but not dangerous enough to licence points
If there's a car a long side space must be left on that side irrespective of being inside or outside. Cars shouldn't be crowded off the track especially after lap 1. What's so hard to have such a rule in place? Penalties were well deserved and the reason this discussion is open has to do with the Leclerc/Verstappen incident where they didn't penalize the Dutchman purely on political grounds, Honda's first win at home to Redbull, those sort of things.
Impressive. Everything you just said is wrong. It's the attacker's responsibility to pull out when he is no longer entitled to the racing line. Shoving your car into gaps that no longer exist and whine about deserving space is what F1 2020 lobbies looks like, and how you create accidents and shitty racing. If you deserved space the second you had an inch on your opponent from the outside, you could just launch yourself up the outside of any corner and laugh as the defender had zero tools available to him to actually defend his position. That's not racing. Racing involves attacking AND defending. If you take away the defending aspect, there would be zero battles on the track. That's why the guidelines (Tho I wish they were more concrete rules) states that if you are attempting an overtake around the outside, you must be equally alongside the defender to deserve space. Otherwise the defender did his job correctly and you need to try again. If you don't pull out and is pushed off the track, that is your own mistake
@@Excludos The so called defender has committed to defend the inside of the bed and then all of the sudden the wants the outside too. Because rules allow this and overtaking became rare they had to introduce the abomination that is DRS. Bottom line is this, if there's a car along side entry and exit to and out of the corner are compromised for both drivers and they have to deal with that. Crowding cars off track should be a thing of the past. This doesn't include your example which is basically divebombing. I'm referring to situations when they are already side by side when entering the corner.
@@Excludos what's impressive is your denial Not only was the other guy right, you just spent 10 min writing something that not only makes sense but is not present in any racing series especially not f1 With your logic the only place to overtake would be on the straights because everything else would too risky
@@VeranaXS More like 2 minutes. I do type faster than 3 WPM... I'm going to ignore your grammar issues where you're telling me I'm wrong because I'm right, which makes no sense, and rather tell you where your misconception lies: These rules, or rather guidelines, are equal to all circuit racing series with 4 wheels. I already explained why earlier, which you chose to ignore, so let me repeat myself. Overtaking is not only about being the attacker, it's also about the defender. If the defender weren't able to do anything to actually defend, then you might as well just have every pass be a blue flag. The defender defends his position by putting his vehicle in the way of the attacker. How he can put his vehicle in the way is half written in rules, and half done through guidelines. There are no rules about how far along the outside the attacker has to be to have the right for space, but there IS a guideline, and that is "be completely alongside, front axel to front axel". That is the tool the defender has in his pocket. If the attacker isn't about to out-brake his opponent to get ahead of him into the corner, he has no right for racing space on the outside. You can read more about the varying rules and situations here: f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/ If you put yourself in a situation where your car is in a closing door that you have no right to be in, that's your own mistake. To be fair to Perez, that happened rather quickly, as he was ahead of Norris in the corner entry, but behind by the time they reached the corner exit. Since his mistake only ended up costing himself, this should have been the bone standard of what encapsulates a 'racing incident' This took me 4 minutes to write, in case you want to ad hominem me again
@@cancracker It's the exact opposite. Overtaking rules and guidelines are there to increase racing, but that includes defending as well, not just overtaking. Norris successfully defending against Perez, and several laps against Lewis a bit later, is also racing. Attacking on the outside requires that you out-brake your opponent into the corner (braking competition), keep your car ahead of him through the corner (side by side action), and finally claim your position by outdriving your opponent by keeping your car ahead of his. Even if the overtake didn't happen, we still got side by side action, only available to us through the rules of racing. In this case, Perez only managed the first, as due to the obtuse angle of the corner, the inside line is more powerful than the outside. He slid further behind as the corner reached towards the exit, and no longer had the right to the racing line. Norris won the battle, and Perez should have yielded. Perez didn't yield, got onto the gravel, lost some positions, and Norris was punished for Perez's mistake. This is in contrast to later, where Perez and Leclerc had the exact same battle. They had a braking competition into the same corner, Leclerc held himself and his car ahead of Perez all the way through it, and was ahead by the corner exit. Perez lost his right to the corner, but drove Leclerc off anyways. That penalty was correctly given. The margins might have been small between the two situations, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.
the common ground amongst all the rules about overtaking is, it prevents unnecessary crashes. i think the rules, case by case, are pretty clear. i do think the stewards dont always enforce them equally.
General rule is: if you are behind and don't have overlap before braking zone, you don't deserve any space from opponent ahead even if you get overlap during braking. If you have at least your front axle side by side with your opponent that is ahead, he needs to give you space, and the one on the inside rather than the one on the racing line decides how much space to give.
Yes you are right and I hope Lando does this again specifically to Perez in the early laps of a race so Checo keeps losing podiums to Lando. The goal of racing is finishing in front of the other cars at the END of the 71 laps - not in lap 4! Checo drove off the track without contact from Lando because he was a donkey that did not want use his brake in turn 4 on lap 4 to stay in 3rd position!!!! Checo had 67 laps left on a track with 3 DRS zones and Checo would have drs advantage on Lando and Lando would not have drs because Max was too far ahead. Checo could easily pass Lando in turn 1 and turn 3 or before turn 4 in lap 5 or 6 but instead he drives off the track loses 5 positions on lap 4 because he was a donkey.
@@mattbilello6229 so according to u, rules only apply on certain situations and certain drivers? Lap 1 or 80, he had the corner and Lando squeezed him. Simple and factual so 🤷🏻♂️
You got the first rule wrong, specifically the bit about approaching a corner. The FIA International Sporting Code (appendix L, chapter IV, Paragraph 2b) states: "Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner". Keyword there is "approach". For instance, approaching a left-hand corner, the racing line will be the right (outside) edge of the track. If a driver moves to the left (inside) to defend then moves back to the right towards the racing line they must leave a cars width to the *outside* edge because thats where the racing line is. Your video suggests the driver has to leave a cars width on the inside of the corner. That is wrong.
In oval kart racing I've done there was always a gentleman's agreement that most passes were initiated coming out of a corner and if you weren't in position to make the pass by the halfway point of the straight then you wouldn't dive bomb going into a corner. Basically stems from not having mirrors
@@chazgordon6409 great point I was just commenting that there's a gentleman's agreement because at a point it becomes a blind spot in Karting. The rules of overtaking in F1 are very grey.
i think landos penalty was fine ...people are saying it kills racing but well not leaving enough space when youre 0.1m is what kills racing ....checo deserved the penalties too
I think that for as long as the cars are basically side by side you need to leave space. But if the car on the racing line is more than half a car a head he can use the line and the car behind needs to adapt. Specially around the outside. Also, the driver defending should not be allowed to move on a straight if the car behind already moved. That will be dangerous. The car in front needs to move first to defend.
2021 was weird. During Austrian GP it seems like if you push someone out next to you you get a penalty. But when the same happened between Lewis and Max in Bahrain/Saudi Arabia/Abu Dhabi in Lewis favor and in max's favor, Brazil/France/Imola. In most case Lewis simply backs out and Max usually just get ahead outside of the white lines but they as attackers had to concede the position one way or another. In these cases the defending driver just drive up to the outside kerb like the other guy wasn't even there but apparently it was allowed if the run off area wasn't gravel or a wall. You can see this between Alonso and the two Alfa drivers in US GP too, cars just pushing people out of the track and it seems that you can push all you want as long as you keep your car within track limits and if you're on the outside you have to concede. But all that said it didnt apply to max in Brazil and it didnt apply to Lewis in Abu Dhabi
I feel drivers should be aware of their surroundings when attacking. The spot where he attacked was a gravel spot...if it was a diff circuit that was flat, it wouldn't have been an issue, would it? Justice for Lando
Well my opinion doesn’t matter, neither does yours or any of the drivers to be honest. The fact is that it’s clear cut in the rules, if the drivers don’t know them, that’s why they get penalties. Let me put it this way, if drivers can get away with this kind of behavior, we will never see an overtake again. They will just take the inside line and send their rivals off every time. That was an exaggeration, but still this isn’t racing. Racing is when cars go wheel to wheel, corner after corner, using their talent to try and come out on top, anyone can win out by letting the car run out to the edge of the track, leaving their rival nowhere to go. If you still think it wasn’t worth a penalty, let’s switch out the drivers, say it was Mazepin who pushed Russell off the road in the same way, would that change your opinion? At the end of the day, we all want to see good racing, and being allowed to push drivers off just isn’t that. Next time, maybe they will leave space, and we will see that epic battle we all really want. I agree it seems harsh right now, but you can’t give racing drivers an inch, because you know what they’ll take.
@@McPlayer8t oh the "clear cut in the rules" argument LOL. FIA is KNOWN to be inconsistent with their penalties. makes me laugh bc the exact wheel to wheel racing has been done on solid corners and no one was penalized. example: 2 yrs ago, max vs leclerc, max kept the win. That's just one of MANY examples lmao You're in denial that checo was impatient, lando really didn't do anything wrong. Doesn't matter what FIA says, we all know its the wrong call
I was watching the race with my dad, and we both picked it up straight away. That kind of driving is not OK. Norris pushed Perez off because he knew he would lose the position, same story for Perez on Leclerc. You can’t go running people off because they are faster, it’s the equivalent of making the AI cars crash in a video game. Anyway, your example was an inside overtake, not a defensive move. If you look at the precedent set last year by Hamilton and Albon, a penalty was applied, the only thing that stopped this incident ending in the same way was Perez taking avoiding action, whilst Albon tried to keep the car on the road. If you choose to take the inside line through the corner, you have indicated to the attacking driver that they can go to the outside, that’s just how racing works, covering the inside isn’t a get out jail free card. At that point, you have given up on the outside line, you can’t just take it back halfway through the corner when there is another car fully alongside. The outside line is there’s to use now. If you wanted it, you should have taken it first. Also, I can think of many times a driver was penalised for pushing someone off on the outside. Obviously there was the Albon incident, but I have seen many others, if you watch F2/3, they enforce these rules much better. Look at the time Mazepin pushed Tsunoda off at Spa last year for example, the penalty cost him the win, and he proceeded to send the P2 board into the next dimension, he was penalised for that too. Compare that to the F3 race at Silverstone, where Bent Viscaal and Lirim Zendeli battled each other for the win on the final lap. They never touched, always left space for each other, they never even left the track limits, and Bent Viscaal won with a fantastic outside move on the final corner, and everyone was buzzing about it. That’s the stuff we all want to see right? I agree the F1 rulings can be inconsistent, but this time, they got it right, and the times they didn’t give penalties for similar incidents are the times they got it wrong. Good clean racing requires cooperation between both drivers, and we saw none of that in these incidents. If you’re not convinced at this point, and you are OK with drivers pushing each other off into the gravel, I just don’t care anymore.
Hi, can you do a video on the pit lane sign that the pit give to the driver when they hang those letter+number sign near the starting line, thx I don't even know what is called, and can F1 driver even see the sign at the speed they going?
Meanwhile most people struggle to overtake properly in their normal street cars. Maybe we should make rules for street car overtaking too? I think that would be very helpful.
"Dive bombing doesn't deserve space"
me on F1 2020: I make my own space.
@Delolstoper im doing exactly the same 😂😂
🤣🤣
Me on F1 2020: Ferrari, meet wall...
"If you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver"
Ayrton Senna
Daniil is that you?
Just follow the Alonso rule: You have to leave the space, all the time you have to leave the space.
Actually that would fix F1 overtaking.
#FernandoforFIApresident
I honestly don't get the Alonso comments. Is this irony ? Does he never leave space ?
@@Toro_Da_Corsa he does usually, he ranted and said that on team radio (i think?)
@@Toro_Da_Corsa he said it at some point idk when tho. Google or TH-cam might know 🤷♂️😂
@@Toro_Da_Corsa it’s cause someone pushed him off (Bahrain 2010 I think) and then he said all da time you have to leave da space, all the time
Video idea: top 7 races that had the most overtakes
7?
@@RoseJetExhaust yes, if you notice their videos, it’s always 4/7/8 lists or something of the sort, never numbers like normal lists (5/10/15)
@I just shit my pants but no doubt
Top 7 overtake penalties at the Austrian grand prix
Moto gp dutch gp 2018
Rule 1: Never let Albon overtake Hamilton
Or Ocon overtake Max
Rule 2: If he commits to it, crash him out of the race and get 5sec penalty
hello darkness my old friend...
Or Perez overtake Norris
@@afiqkamarudin2228 Leclerc on Perez 😂
"ALL THE TIME YOU HAVE TO LEAVE THE SPACE!!!!"
Fernando Alonso
seb mocking alonso: in a spanish accent "ALL THE TIME YOU HAVE TO LEAVE THE SPACE!!!!"
the way fernando pronounced it was comedy gold.
Unless you take it three wide into turn one and shove two drivers off track on exit.
"...Live-a the space"
the same Alonso pushed Seb off the track at Monza 😂
"Dive bombing doesn't deserve space"
Daniil Kvjat: we don't care
Even In the video games kvyat tries to wreck me out
"Huehuehue dont keep going then"
Torpedo
The sad thing is that Daniil was actually quite fast and a good driver, except that he likes ehmmmm torpedoing
Daniil Kvyat: th-cam.com/video/e-s-X6HrXhM/w-d-xo.htmlm27s
The F1 grid themselves are still trying to figure out the overtaking rules.
Finally someone acknowledges the fact that perez was acutally entitled to a carwidth of space and lando didn't left him any. And it's the same with both perez v leclerc incidents. The problem is that the FIA let incidents like these slide in the past years, and olny gave penalties a few times. So i get it when someone says they weren't penalizing this in the past years so these penalties were undeserved. And i somewhat agree, BUT forcing other drivers off track should not be allowed. I'm very happy they handed out these penalties and i hope they will keep doing this. Because these rules are exactly what encourage wheel to wheel racing. Imagine if lanod and perez would have kept the battle on in turn 5 and 6.
Perez still had a car's width and a bit of space when he first touched Gravel, Leclerc was Rammed off TWICE in the came manouver, BIG difference!
@@chazgordon6409 this is dumb. If Perez holds the line to keep the space he crashes into Lando. Lando purposefully squeezed him and deserved the penalty.
@@chazgordon6409 he only used the space given by lando.
@@chazgordon6409 on the first leclerc-perez incident, the contact occurred in the middle of the track. Perez then definitely ran leclerc off (and deserved a penalty), but imo, the contact itself was more leclerc chopping the corner and not running out to the edge of the track. I think perez would've run him off regardless, though
The first Leclerc incident I thought was a definite penalty, Leclerc was well ahead on corner entry so Perez was not entitled to run him wide. The second incident, Leclerc had lost position well before the corner exit but still stayed in it and then Perez oversteered into him. So that's a racing incident to me, yeah Perez punted him off but he also wasn't entitled to be there anymore.
I remember there was one race at Monza, Alonso left space on the outside for Kimi at turn 3 or 4, while Vettel or somebody else didn’t do likewise. Alonso were praised for sportsmanship in the post-race analysis.
Like how alonso pushed vettel 2 wheels of the track at monza 2012?
All the time you have to leave a space
@@vishaalpamulapati it was 11
Simple version:
✅Car go round on track
❎Car go round off track
Tricky version
✳️car go round spinning
❇️car go round doing donuts 🍩
You can watch Kimi vs Fernando on the same corner in the same race on how you avoid the penalty.
where i can find it?
@@ViniSampaio16 th-cam.com/video/7dKPuUJx0Kk/w-d-xo.html
It's not a matter of it being possible or not.
It's not like we didn't have 4 races here in 2 years (6 in 4) and had plenty of exemples.
It's a matter of drivers racing each other to the limit, and beyond.
You need a LOT of compliance from both parties to go along side by side. If one of them decide to defend his position, like it happened MANY times over the last years that WE judged not punishable (and for a reason WE agreed to "let them race"), then one of them is going to end up in the gravel, by his own move.
You can also see Kimi not see Vettel on the last lap and just drive into him. Haha!
Also landos move on Lewis.
Overtaking rules be like: An overtake is allowed. But illegal
LOL exactly :)
LOL exactly :)
LOL exactly :)
According to Masi, its whatever he chooses each weekend...
And during the race as well
the Norris-Perez incident is pretty clear, they were next to each other and it's not like Norris "didn't leave enough space", he even used the kerbs pushing Perez off the track like nobody was there. if this is just a racing incident, overtaking in F1 will become very difficult...
Lando squeezed Checo and deserved the penalty BUT be accurate in that Lando was not on the curbs - Checo was on the curbs and eventually half off in the gravel, but as a RedBull fan I have ask if anyone thinks it was good move to try with 67 more laps left on a track with 3 drs zones and Checo will have drs and Lando won’t because Max was more than 1 second ahead? Does any one else think that Checo could have 2nd on the podium if he just waits to pass Lando in one or two more laps using drs in turn 1 or turn 3 or before turning into turn 4? Geez 67 laps left with a race winning under him and he tries that move there- WHY? Love Checo but he is going to lose his seat if he continues with that kind of decision making.
@@mattbilello6229 yeah checo just need to Patient, just few more lap he can overtake lando with drs. But i still insist the penalty awarded to lando is still the right decision.
@@mattbilello6229 No, that was Lando's fault. Clearly.
@@mattbilello6229 Especially knowing that Lando did the exact same thing 2 corners earlier on T1 during the restart and Checo complained he was pushed off. Checo could see Lando's line going into T3 wasn't going to leave him any space. He was an idiot not backing out. Yes, Lando was at fault for not leaving space and deserved the penalty he got. But, Checo ruined his own race.
He also didn’t leave enough space for Checo in Zandvoort. I swear Lando is scared of Checo taking his 4th spot in the WDC
Truth: there aren’t rules, they just put 5 second penalties when ever they feel like it
bruh lmao
FIA in a nutshell LOL
{Put tracks no one wants on the calendar, give 5sec time penalties, favour dominant teams (allowing Mercedes to clear Hamilton's slp's in 2020 for just £40,000 or something, and not penalising Ferrari for breaking the engine regs in 2019, and not publishing the result on their investigation.), and cause controversies.
congrats on 800k subs Tommy and Matt
One of the things I find interesting is when the driver "has the line". I think it's an unspoken thing in F1 (someone correct me if I'm wrong, a gentlemans agreement persay) but one of the dependencies on these incidents is who reaches that corner ahead of the over taking or defending driver. Usually in respectful racing we usually see the driver thats behind yield to the driver ahead going into the turn, usually to compensate or prepare for if the car ahead oversteers. I think it should've just been a noted incident with no further action being taken.
well i agree
I think penalty is deserved. Go and check Kimi vs Schumi 2012 Brazil battle both of them leave enough space to another. Then go check 2019 Austrian Gp Max overtaking Charles, Leclerc didn't had any chance to defend, Max just pushed him off. This kills racing. I still think that Max had to given penalty in 2019 and Lando's or Perez's moves are should be illegal. Another example to this is Mick vs Mazepin at France this year. Mazepin just pushed Mick off so he can't defend, I think this is unfair.
Love how this is in my recommended after the Brazilian GP 2021 😂
Dom would say: “There’s no space for overtaking. There’s family….”
only my family shall pass 😄😄
I understand the format of these 101 short videos, but this is a massive subject and it deserves a "102" follow-up
In my view all the overtakingpenalties were very well decided. As soon as a car is at least half besides you, you have to leave a space. Otherwise it would be allowed to just shove someone off at a corner, because iT wAS tHe OutSidE AnD mY caR RaN WiDe
Thank you for making f1 more simple for newer fans like us.
As a relatively new fan it would be nice to have simple rules. Also I’m too lazy to read the rule book lol
you don't have to read the rule book, You can just follow f1 races and community and you'll understand eventually. Btw I started watching f1 this year and I think I understood .
It’s not really that complicated, what it really boils down to is don’t weave and leave some space for the cars around you.
I find it’s more the consistency of implementing the rules race to race is difficult for everyone, drivers included. There’s no reason the overtaking rules can’t be simplified. I also feel that making sure you have space to compete your move is the responsibility of the overtaking car, as you know that the racing line will squeeze you out if you don’t make it ahead of the car you’re passing, so if you can’t do it either back off or say good bye to the track and brace for your off road “penalty”. I felt like Sergio and Charles were being overly aggressive in trying to send those passes, and got the consequences of trying to make something impassable stick. For me, the rule should be no weaving or pushing cars off track on the straight and the cars should stick to their chosen racing line once in the breaking zone, and it’s the responsibility of the car behind has to make the pass work. Simple.
It's really not as difficult as this video makes it look like.
If you overtake in the inside, it's fairly simple. You only have to be at least half way along side to claim space. But you are not allowed to divebomb (attacking the corner so fast, you can't make the corner without crashing into the other car, or without driving off the track).
If you do an overtake on the outside, than there are 2 "fases" that matter. Fase 1 is breaking. If you are fully (not halfway!!) alongside then you claim space for the breaking zone untill the apex.
Fase 2 starts at the apex of the corner. Are you still completely alongside of the other car or even in front? If no, back out, you have no right for space. But if you are, than you claim the space, the defending party has to change his acceleration to not run wide into you.
Chainbear explains it very well with image, might be interesting to check that out.
I like how the F1 video games these overtaking rules never apply because it's just a video game and they can't code that in.
Loois should watch this.
Thanks for the video, I just started watching formula 1 and at the Austrian Grand Prix I didn't understand some of the rules for overtaking so some of the penalties to me I didn't understand besides Yuki Sanoda's
I don't see how there's much to argue here. The attacking cars got alongside the defending car in the corner, the defending cars pushed the attacking car out wide. You don't force a car off to take a piece of track when they're already there.
Like it was explained in the video, if they're not equal or ahead of the car, they're not "entitled" to that space. You see this often, defending cars will take over the line mid corner and the attacking cars are not alongside enough that they will usually back out of it so they don't lose much time or risk crashing. But the cars ARE alongside each other in this instance, and saying it's anyone else's fault than the one pushing the car off the road is really silly.
100%
Norris was just slightly ahead at the off point, Perez was only ahead going into braking zone, then Lando braked less, claiming the edge back.
RULES?????
F1 Online: We don't do that here.
The editing in these videos is great! Thanks for the upload 😊
i can't believe wtf1 hasn't hit 1m sub yet, was so surprise to hear that
He didn't give him enough space and literally had him go on the gravel so ... Well deserved
Exactly, you can’t just run people off. If drivers know they’re going to be pushed off the road, they won’t even try in the first place. Drivers need to be able to trust that they will get the space they deserve. As for the people who say outside passes don’t deserve space, that is absolute nonsense, and contrary to popular belief, the outside is often the better line, as your exit speed will be greater than the inside car.
it was hard racing bruh. And the only thing that makes the race exciting
@@qwertyplatypus2174 you cant defend breaking a rule by saying "it was racing". It wasnt fair play, it ruined the race for Checo, i think Lando deserved the penalty
@@Jakaj99 Look I think both drivers - Checo and Norris - have brake pedals so your of the opinion because Checo took the outside line and braked very deep into tight right hander that down hill sloping that Norris should have stopped accelerating out of the corner and braked to give Checo the space. Some would argue that Checo should tapped his brakes maintained position set up the pass later. Fair enough and ok Lando got a penalty but let’s not forget he never made contact with Checo and Checo could have braked knowing the down slope nature of the turn puts all cars on the outside exiting the corner. Norris did not actually physically force Checo off the track but he did limit Checo’s options. The shame of all it is that blaming Norris doesn’t change the fact that Checo really did not need to try that move there - 67 laps left on track with 3 drs zones and Lando wouldn’t have drs because max is too far ahead. Don’t you think RB told Checo after the race you could have been 2nd on the podium if he waited to pass Lando with drs in turn 1 or turn 3 or before turning into turn 4 a couple of laps later? 5 second penalty still gave Lando a podium is Lando really going to do anything different if presented with the same situation at a later race? I doubt it. Will Checo do same thing again early in a race later in the year? I hope not.
@@Jakaj99 Lando had an incident at the french GP where Gasly pushed him so far out that even Gasly was completely off the track. Lando backed out because he hit the brake and attacked a bit later. No penalty for Gasly.
Maybe the attacking driver should realize when it's simply not working and back out.
My issue with the penalties is that Lando did the exact same thing to Checho on turn 1 after the safety car restart. What's the difference between turn 1 and turn 4? Gravel run off vs asphalt, that's the difference and that's why the penalties were given, not due to the move itself but due to what's on the outside.
I think both the action and the consequence must be taken into account. T1 has big tarmac runoff, it was the first turn after restart, so the incident was treated lightly.
You don't judge a failed attempt murder / assault and a first degree murder the same way in real life, don't you?
@@truongnguyendac2032 considering they're both felonies that's a bad example. And they didnt even note the incident at turn 1. The only difference between the incidents at T1 and T4 is what's on the outside. Both were on the safety car restart so if you say one is due to that and a racing incident then both should be.
Never really thought about a lot of this. Very informative
@@marcelo_1793 ok
Gonna need to watch this 5 more times
Great timing. I was wondering about the stewards’ decision after what happened at Italy between Hamilton and Verstappen 🔥
And it only got more confusing after Brazil x)
Confused ... where did you find those rules? Last time I checked, there was no such thing as "side by side on the outside" nor "half a car length on the inside" but it was just said that has long as the driver as any part of its car along ide the other car, he cannot be force out of the track limits.
I would not be surprised that the regulation has changed, but it would have been interesting to quote the regulation paragraph and such when illustrating a specific point.
And by the way, the illustration about the "1 car space" is wrong. The space should be on the other side, since the rules says that when a driver has defended outside the racing line and is approaching the braking zone, he is allowed to come back toward the racing line but should leave a 1 car space. Since the racing line in the zone toward the braking zone is on the outside, that's where the space should have been illustrated.
There is a rule that defines, that the attacking cars front axis has to be on the same high oder higher compared to the back axis of the defending car. If this is in case, the attacking car is allowed to move inside a corner next to the defending car. In other cases the attacking car's to far away.
I'd gladly sacrifice seeing 20 overtakes for 1 good side by side battle.
Ehhhhhh
NICE YOU NOW AT THE TIME OF ME WATCHING YOU HAVE JUST HIT 1 MILLION SUBSCRIBER ON TH-cam CONGRATS
You forgot to mention that a car is considered alongside if the front tire from the overtaking car is ahead of the driver itself (or sidepods but that's the same)
I can never get over the fact that overtaking around the outside is pretty much forbidden in F1. It almost sounds like "Trying to overtake on the outside is such a crime, you deserve to be pushed off the track."...
F1 has global fan following. Hi from Dhaka Bangladesh 🇧🇩 ❤️
I think some of the drivers should sub for this content!
In my eyes it was a fair penalty, it isn't hard racing to force a driver of track to keep your position or stop the other car. I think the Stewards did the right thing, your opinion?
you and the stewards does a good job at killing racing
@@KitKitChanIsaac Being allow to push other drivers off the track if you are 0.2 meters ahead is what killing racing.
@@KitKitChanIsaac what I think kills racing is anytime someone tries to overtake on the outside you could just push them off. I think this rules helps racing if anything
I think the time penalties were fine too, I just feel like the penalty points are a bit harsh considering so many drivers are close to a race ban even though none have done anything too dangerous.
I respect ur opinion but I don't agree.. I think perez was too impatient and he took the risk to overtake on the outside while the advantage was more for Norris. That decision caused in him running out of tarmac and on to the gravel while lando was on the racing line. Same with perez and leclerc,leclerc was too aggressive and just wanted to get through,tho I do think perezs first penalty was kinda fair because he kinda drove into leclerc,but the second one not really,I think it was leclerc being too aggressive.
Video Idea: Top 10 Beautiful Overtakes. I expect atleast one Ric in there/.
Less people footage, more information! Thx matt
Alright ya convinced me lol. I love these videos, and this channel is fun and informative. Cheers
This video was released in good time.
Yes I think they need to follow the Highway code, applied to F1 too, if a car is by your side you have to give it all the space and can't push it out, only time you can cut another driver is if his car is if you have completely overtaken him and the overtaken car is now well behind the challenger's car, then it would be safe to do so as there will be no provision for a collision, that means constantly keeping an eye for the defending driver not still within any part of the challengers car's side even if just an inch, so cutting corners not allowed on bends when overtaking and race line aborted by both drivers to accomodate one another.
I was thinking they should just paint lanes on the tracks and you can't change lanes if you'll hit another car (joking but not so far from this)
I'd like to see a new analysis of overtaking focusing on the numerous incidents between Max and Lewis because maybe it is just the FIA inconsistency but I've been completely confused about what is and isn't ok when fighting for a corner this year. It just doesn't seem right when a driver just runs another car off the track because what is the other driver supposed to do? stop?
like to see that too
"If you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver."
The only rule that matters. Build your sport around this.
In regatta sailing, there's also an eternal debate on who has right to room, but it's relatively easy to find the answer due to fixed parameters. With some exceptions, outside vessels just have to give room to all inside vessels near a buoy if they were alongside in time*. Both sailors and umpires can judge distances between sailboats and buoys, so they can act accordingly. In F1, you'd even be able to mark areas on the track. Of course every situation is different because that's where the fun comes in, but F1 could also just have fewer rules making it easier to follow and judge
*Alongside means you have a line drawn at 90° through the aftmost (furthest back) point of the outside vessel and any part of the inside vessel is in front of that. I don't see why we can't use the same metric in F1. In time means the moment one of them gets within 3 hull lengths of the buoy. This could be like 100 meters or so in F1 and zones can be determined beforehand on an F1 track
Well explained. Now I understand the overtaking rule. Thanks!
Hamilton didn't watch this before the Silverstone GP.
You clearly didnt watch till 03:50
How many cars has LeClerc destroyed dive bombing at this point?
Beyond that, Alonso vs Russell clearly showed how to race wheel to wheel and leave space.
Norris broke too late with zero intent to leave space as the analysis from Palmer broke down. Penalty earned.
yeah but the norris thing doesn't deserve points
Exactly this. Penalty wasn't too harsh at all
@@AJ--212 so you think pushing someone into the gravel illegally and forcing everyone behind to deal with a car that's now significantly slower than the rest at that point of the track and could cause further collisions is not worthy enough of points. He made the race unsafe same way Perez did later.
@@tryphonx You don't have to leave space/yield unless a car is alongside you. Where Perez was Norris had no chance to even see where he was, they can barely turn their heads and barely even see the tops of their own tyres. If a car trying to pass isn't actually alongside the car it's attempting to pass, they either back off or run off track, Norris did nothing wrong. Any F1/experienced racing driver that's analyzed the situation has said the same thing. Norris did nothing wrong.
@@tryphonx if they cant deal with a slower driver they shouldn't be in F1, as for Perez, he didn't have to go for the overtake, he chose to
Divebombs deserve the most respect ✊ They are the most sophisticated form of overtaking of course.
There’s no more satisfying way of making a fool of your opponent than by showing how much better of a late braker you are than them.
Why should I be penalized if it only takes me 50m to brake when it takes them 100m?
*lifts pinky fancifully while sipping fine wine
F1 2020 my team car with every upgrade be like.
I will send this to my dad.😂 Also I and my dad love Schumi and my dad always makes the joke that when Schumi squeezed someone off he always said: ”I was trying to help him.” 😂
I think the fact there are rules is already quite marvelous! (You can tell I'm a rookie.😁)
You're gonna have to make another video after today
Anyone back a week later 👀
Checo : Write that down, Write that down
Yo he hit a mil! Congrats 🏎 🎉
I subscribed! 1/1000000 part of the job done.
What F1 should do about their passing rules.
1 - The car that is not ahead is deemed to alongside once the front wheel makes it past the rear wheel of the lead car.
The leading car going into a corner must give a car width from the end point of the corner, or is considered at fault. The width applies to both the inside and outside of an apex, meaning once the rear car is ahead of the front cars rear wheel, the rear car also must apply to the same width when driving off the apex out of the corner.
Once the car that is not ahead is in this position, the lead car must not take that width away until safety past the car in back.
2. The car in the rear must be ahead prior to the apex in order for that vehicle to now be able to switch as the lead car.
Same rules as above now apply with apex car widths.
If the car in the rear does not get past prior to the apex, then rule 1 still applies to them and they are the lead car only needs to give a car width.
This way, if you want to make a dive on the inside, you better know you will have to lead as well as be able to be at a slow enough speed as to not push the other off the track.
Same with overtaking vehicles making dangerous maneuvers.
Have all these be penalties and drivers will be much safer.
Really do like your videos wtf1 and they are very entertaining, but in this instance I think chainbear explained it perfectly, and I do agree more with him
its very simple actually.
"all the time u have to leave a space" that's it. that's all u need to defend and as well as to attack ;)
God that is the most abused and misused quote in F1; no, you don't always have to leave space. This is second only to the extremely misused quote from Senna "If you don't go for a gap you're no longer a racing driver", which is just a ridiculous excuse he used for coldly crashing into another driver to take him out of the race.
Excludos …the driver that crashed him out a year earlier.
But, I kind of agree, there are a few circumstances where you don’t need to leave space, but in the three cases in Austria, it was pretty clear cut.
@@McPlayer8t You're right, it was clear cut, but not in the way you think. Since I'm bored of repeating myself for the 10th time across numerous threads in here, I'm going to be lazy and just leave this here for you:
www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.aero-tweaks-new-tyres-and-the-cost-cap-the-2021-f1-rules-and-regulation.r1cq36aI6bvzMeZtiFru3.html
Perez was not equal to Norris, so he did not have right of way. Leclerc was ahead of Perez in both circumstances, so he did have the right of way.
Excludos The thing is, Perez DID momentarily get ahead of Norris, so it depends if that is enough to apply the rule. In my opinion, the outside car still needs space, they can’t just disappear the moment they lose an inch to the inside car.
Honestly though, I think we are diving too deep here, the simple facts are that in all cases, the drivers knew about the cars on the outside and plainly ran them out of road, and that is not the type of driving we want to encourage.
Also, the link you left has nothing on overtaking, it’s just technical stuff.
if the car itself is smaller, this overtaking issue might be less of an issue.
YES. F1 is too fat and too wide.
It feels like they are as long as a bus
Rule should be, even if only front wing tip is by the rear tire side - driver under attack must leave car width for attacker.
damn I always dive bomb,switch direction to defend,pusother players or AI near the edge when defending etc,guess I'll not be able to finish a season irl
I always push incoming ai to the walls on straights and reset till i get away with no penalties. Must always defend that P18 like a champ. (jk, I did do it to Bottas for p2 tho)
reniel fanini You won’t believe me given the context of this discussion, but Hamilton always crashes right behind me or even into me, I need two hands to count how many times this has happened. I honestly don’t know why, he just loses the rear and smacks the nearest wall whenever I’m around. He hit me and spun into the wall in the season finale once, and he lost the title to Bottas.
Are you playing with strict rules on? ;)
@@McPlayer8t bro. I believe you. I have to become an airplane pilot around corners sometime. sometimes i am minding my own business and some random ai launches out of nowhere.
@@mahejo if you are asking me, I play with sim damage, regular rules. ABS off and tc off. I been changing the rules to full sim but the ai is crazy sometimes
Great video lads!
I don't understand the argument that the penalty on Lando was harsh. Allowing drivers to do what he did would completely stop the ability to overtake around the outside, an outcome which people would unanimously think is worse for racing.
Just B for British, B for Bias thingy - pay no heed to them.
Oof, this makes me appreciate that in nascar there are no overtaking rules, contact rules or track limits
I think they should do what they do in horse racing. With a Steward explanation with head on video. Can be shown after the race. That way the stewards explanation is known with example shown.
it's pretty simple... if under attack you choose to stay inside, you have to let space outside
so the 5 sec was correct, but not dangerous enough to licence points
If there's a car a long side space must be left on that side irrespective of being inside or outside. Cars shouldn't be crowded off the track especially after lap 1. What's so hard to have such a rule in place? Penalties were well deserved and the reason this discussion is open has to do with the Leclerc/Verstappen incident where they didn't penalize the Dutchman purely on political grounds, Honda's first win at home to Redbull, those sort of things.
Impressive. Everything you just said is wrong. It's the attacker's responsibility to pull out when he is no longer entitled to the racing line. Shoving your car into gaps that no longer exist and whine about deserving space is what F1 2020 lobbies looks like, and how you create accidents and shitty racing.
If you deserved space the second you had an inch on your opponent from the outside, you could just launch yourself up the outside of any corner and laugh as the defender had zero tools available to him to actually defend his position. That's not racing. Racing involves attacking AND defending. If you take away the defending aspect, there would be zero battles on the track. That's why the guidelines (Tho I wish they were more concrete rules) states that if you are attempting an overtake around the outside, you must be equally alongside the defender to deserve space. Otherwise the defender did his job correctly and you need to try again. If you don't pull out and is pushed off the track, that is your own mistake
@@Excludos The so called defender has committed to defend the inside of the bed and then all of the sudden the wants the outside too. Because rules allow this and overtaking became rare they had to introduce the abomination that is DRS. Bottom line is this, if there's a car along side entry and exit to and out of the corner are compromised for both drivers and they have to deal with that. Crowding cars off track should be a thing of the past. This doesn't include your example which is basically divebombing. I'm referring to situations when they are already side by side when entering the corner.
@@Excludos what's impressive is your denial
Not only was the other guy right, you just spent 10 min writing something that not only makes sense but is not present in any racing series especially not f1
With your logic the only place to overtake would be on the straights because everything else would too risky
@@VeranaXS More like 2 minutes. I do type faster than 3 WPM...
I'm going to ignore your grammar issues where you're telling me I'm wrong because I'm right, which makes no sense, and rather tell you where your misconception lies:
These rules, or rather guidelines, are equal to all circuit racing series with 4 wheels. I already explained why earlier, which you chose to ignore, so let me repeat myself. Overtaking is not only about being the attacker, it's also about the defender. If the defender weren't able to do anything to actually defend, then you might as well just have every pass be a blue flag. The defender defends his position by putting his vehicle in the way of the attacker. How he can put his vehicle in the way is half written in rules, and half done through guidelines. There are no rules about how far along the outside the attacker has to be to have the right for space, but there IS a guideline, and that is "be completely alongside, front axel to front axel". That is the tool the defender has in his pocket. If the attacker isn't about to out-brake his opponent to get ahead of him into the corner, he has no right for racing space on the outside.
You can read more about the varying rules and situations here: f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/
If you put yourself in a situation where your car is in a closing door that you have no right to be in, that's your own mistake. To be fair to Perez, that happened rather quickly, as he was ahead of Norris in the corner entry, but behind by the time they reached the corner exit. Since his mistake only ended up costing himself, this should have been the bone standard of what encapsulates a 'racing incident'
This took me 4 minutes to write, in case you want to ad hominem me again
@@cancracker It's the exact opposite. Overtaking rules and guidelines are there to increase racing, but that includes defending as well, not just overtaking. Norris successfully defending against Perez, and several laps against Lewis a bit later, is also racing.
Attacking on the outside requires that you out-brake your opponent into the corner (braking competition), keep your car ahead of him through the corner (side by side action), and finally claim your position by outdriving your opponent by keeping your car ahead of his. Even if the overtake didn't happen, we still got side by side action, only available to us through the rules of racing.
In this case, Perez only managed the first, as due to the obtuse angle of the corner, the inside line is more powerful than the outside. He slid further behind as the corner reached towards the exit, and no longer had the right to the racing line. Norris won the battle, and Perez should have yielded. Perez didn't yield, got onto the gravel, lost some positions, and Norris was punished for Perez's mistake.
This is in contrast to later, where Perez and Leclerc had the exact same battle. They had a braking competition into the same corner, Leclerc held himself and his car ahead of Perez all the way through it, and was ahead by the corner exit. Perez lost his right to the corner, but drove Leclerc off anyways. That penalty was correctly given. The margins might have been small between the two situations, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.
Video Idea : Top 10 races that had more overtakes (2)
the common ground amongst all the rules about overtaking is, it prevents unnecessary crashes. i think the rules, case by case, are pretty clear. i do think the stewards dont always enforce them equally.
Suggest you make a video about track limits and when penalties are attracted
I watched this vid to know how to overtake because I want to be a f1 driver as well
"If you want to overtake someone, do a torpedo." Sun Tzu Art of War
Brought to you by Kvyat
@@papapok13 That's racing man!
Mat: dive bombing doesn’t deserve space?
Me playing f12020: Oh right, anyway
General rule is: if you are behind and don't have overlap before braking zone, you don't deserve any space from opponent ahead even if you get overlap during braking. If you have at least your front axle side by side with your opponent that is ahead, he needs to give you space, and the one on the inside rather than the one on the racing line decides how much space to give.
So, again, Checo was ahead of Lando coming in to the brake zone. The move was already initiated BEFORE the corner. Lando 100% has to give room. Period
Yes you are right and I hope Lando does this again specifically to Perez in the early laps of a race so Checo keeps losing podiums to Lando. The goal of racing is finishing in front of the other cars at the END of the 71 laps - not in lap 4! Checo drove off the track without contact from Lando because he was a donkey that did not want use his brake in turn 4 on lap 4 to stay in 3rd position!!!! Checo had 67 laps left on a track with 3 DRS zones and Checo would have drs advantage on Lando and Lando would not have drs because Max was too far ahead. Checo could easily pass Lando in turn 1 and turn 3 or before turn 4 in lap 5 or 6 but instead he drives off the track loses 5 positions on lap 4 because he was a donkey.
@@mattbilello6229 so according to u, rules only apply on certain situations and certain drivers? Lap 1 or 80, he had the corner and Lando squeezed him. Simple and factual so 🤷🏻♂️
@@mattbilello6229 And I also hope Perez forces Lando off the track in the next races as a form of payback
You got the first rule wrong, specifically the bit about approaching a corner. The FIA International Sporting Code (appendix L, chapter IV, Paragraph 2b) states: "Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner".
Keyword there is "approach". For instance, approaching a left-hand corner, the racing line will be the right (outside) edge of the track. If a driver moves to the left (inside) to defend then moves back to the right towards the racing line they must leave a cars width to the *outside* edge because thats where the racing line is.
Your video suggests the driver has to leave a cars width on the inside of the corner. That is wrong.
Video idea: How do reverse grids work? Will there still be any fight for getting pole in Quali? Love your vids ❤️
6 months late, but reverse grid doesn't work by quali. It's done by previous quali or race result.
@@igota3 gotchaaa. Thank you! ☺️
There probably weren't even any overtaking rules, before Michael Schumacher
Been looking for these rules, anyone have a link? Thanks!
Could you do a video on DRS rules?
In oval kart racing I've done there was always a gentleman's agreement that most passes were initiated coming out of a corner and if you weren't in position to make the pass by the halfway point of the straight then you wouldn't dive bomb going into a corner. Basically stems from not having mirrors
Well, F1 cars are not karts, they have mirrors, and don’t race on ovals. Still interesting though.
Karting doesn't have a 20 Million dollar contract at stake for the championship contenders.
@@chazgordon6409 great point I was just commenting that there's a gentleman's agreement because at a point it becomes a blind spot in Karting. The rules of overtaking in F1 are very grey.
i think landos penalty was fine ...people are saying it kills racing but well not leaving enough space when youre 0.1m is what kills racing ....checo deserved the penalties too
If i did this is in sim racing then i will probably be hated on that lobby
I think that for as long as the cars are basically side by side you need to leave space. But if the car on the racing line is more than half a car a head he can use the line and the car behind needs to adapt. Specially around the outside.
Also, the driver defending should not be allowed to move on a straight if the car behind already moved. That will be dangerous. The car in front needs to move first to defend.
Maybe the FIA should watch this
2021 was weird. During Austrian GP it seems like if you push someone out next to you you get a penalty.
But when the same happened between Lewis and Max in Bahrain/Saudi Arabia/Abu Dhabi in Lewis favor and in max's favor, Brazil/France/Imola. In most case Lewis simply backs out and Max usually just get ahead outside of the white lines but they as attackers had to concede the position one way or another.
In these cases the defending driver just drive up to the outside kerb like the other guy wasn't even there but apparently it was allowed if the run off area wasn't gravel or a wall. You can see this between Alonso and the two Alfa drivers in US GP too, cars just pushing people out of the track and it seems that you can push all you want as long as you keep your car within track limits and if you're on the outside you have to concede.
But all that said it didnt apply to max in Brazil and it didnt apply to Lewis in Abu Dhabi
But in the case of Hamilton being the inside driver, Verstappen on the outside is only entitled to a time penalty after being forced off
I feel drivers should be aware of their surroundings when attacking. The spot where he attacked was a gravel spot...if it was a diff circuit that was flat, it wouldn't have been an issue, would it? Justice for Lando
Well Lando should have thought of that when he pushed Perez out there, same for Perez and Leclerc.
@@McPlayer8t Lando did nothing wrong, all drivers agreed, even max and their opinion weighs more than yours
Well my opinion doesn’t matter, neither does yours or any of the drivers to be honest. The fact is that it’s clear cut in the rules, if the drivers don’t know them, that’s why they get penalties.
Let me put it this way, if drivers can get away with this kind of behavior, we will never see an overtake again. They will just take the inside line and send their rivals off every time. That was an exaggeration, but still this isn’t racing. Racing is when cars go wheel to wheel, corner after corner, using their talent to try and come out on top, anyone can win out by letting the car run out to the edge of the track, leaving their rival nowhere to go.
If you still think it wasn’t worth a penalty, let’s switch out the drivers, say it was Mazepin who pushed Russell off the road in the same way, would that change your opinion?
At the end of the day, we all want to see good racing, and being allowed to push drivers off just isn’t that. Next time, maybe they will leave space, and we will see that epic battle we all really want. I agree it seems harsh right now, but you can’t give racing drivers an inch, because you know what they’ll take.
@@McPlayer8t oh the "clear cut in the rules" argument LOL. FIA is KNOWN to be inconsistent with their penalties. makes me laugh bc the exact wheel to wheel racing has been done on solid corners and no one was penalized. example: 2 yrs ago, max vs leclerc, max kept the win. That's just one of MANY examples lmao You're in denial that checo was impatient, lando really didn't do anything wrong. Doesn't matter what FIA says, we all know its the wrong call
I was watching the race with my dad, and we both picked it up straight away. That kind of driving is not OK. Norris pushed Perez off because he knew he would lose the position, same story for Perez on Leclerc. You can’t go running people off because they are faster, it’s the equivalent of making the AI cars crash in a video game. Anyway, your example was an inside overtake, not a defensive move. If you look at the precedent set last year by Hamilton and Albon, a penalty was applied, the only thing that stopped this incident ending in the same way was Perez taking avoiding action, whilst Albon tried to keep the car on the road.
If you choose to take the inside line through the corner, you have indicated to the attacking driver that they can go to the outside, that’s just how racing works, covering the inside isn’t a get out jail free card. At that point, you have given up on the outside line, you can’t just take it back halfway through the corner when there is another car fully alongside. The outside line is there’s to use now. If you wanted it, you should have taken it first.
Also, I can think of many times a driver was penalised for pushing someone off on the outside. Obviously there was the Albon incident, but I have seen many others, if you watch F2/3, they enforce these rules much better. Look at the time Mazepin pushed Tsunoda off at Spa last year for example, the penalty cost him the win, and he proceeded to send the P2 board into the next dimension, he was penalised for that too. Compare that to the F3 race at Silverstone, where Bent Viscaal and Lirim Zendeli battled each other for the win on the final lap. They never touched, always left space for each other, they never even left the track limits, and Bent Viscaal won with a fantastic outside move on the final corner, and everyone was buzzing about it. That’s the stuff we all want to see right?
I agree the F1 rulings can be inconsistent, but this time, they got it right, and the times they didn’t give penalties for similar incidents are the times they got it wrong. Good clean racing requires cooperation between both drivers, and we saw none of that in these incidents.
If you’re not convinced at this point, and you are OK with drivers pushing each other off into the gravel, I just don’t care anymore.
Recently got into F1, glad I FINALLY understand why I'm getting so many penalties in 2020.
POV: You are here after Hamilton and Max,
Hi, can you do a video on the pit lane sign that the pit give to the driver when they hang those letter+number sign near the starting line, thx I don't even know what is called, and can F1 driver even see the sign at the speed they going?
Meanwhile most people struggle to overtake properly in their normal street cars. Maybe we should make rules for street car overtaking too? I think that would be very helpful.
Personally we should scrap overtaking would make the racing simpler