This raises questions about Melina Is she a demigod ? Is she an empyrean ? Is she sealing another powerful being on her eye ? Which powerful being ? Does she like jazz ?
Well if Melina is Marika's daughter like her ingame files suggests she's a demigodess. If she's also the Gloam-Eyed Queen like many believes she's an empyrean too, and the eye seal could be just her innate God-slaying flame that was locked by the Rune of Death's sealing (and unlocked in Frenzy ending). Truly the greatest mystery is does she likes jazz?
you can also connect Melina to Marika how Millicent is to Malenia. Melina could be Marika's Free Will when she ascended to godhood judging by how defensive she gets about Marika's plans and her own desires for burning the Erdtree in the Mountaintops regions.
@@shahriar4706_ and that she can relay Marika's words to us at Sites of Grace. And the implication that she regained memories after fighting Morgott (or maybe leading up to it when she leaves us at the first Site we rest at). She's the Kindling Maiden with a vision of fire who can cast Marika's secret incantation of the kindness of Gold before Order, the Minor Erdtree. Not to mention it's a more powerful version than the one we get. As you said, there's a chance Melina is the Will of Marika just like Millicent travels to Elphael to give Malenia the Will she lost to meet Radahn's measure in Aeonia. Fun stuff.
another small hint is the ost for messmer shares a lot of motifs with the radagon theme which is often used to indicate connections between characters like romina- malenia and elden beast- metyr
@@titanus261 Read Messmer's Kindling "Messmer, much like his younger sister, bore a vision of fire." This could only be Melina, Malenia or Ranni but neither Ranni or Malenia is connected to fire. Melina and Messmer seem to be long forgotten demigods, that's why nobody talks about them. (Ranni only mentions herself, Miquella and Malenia when she talks about empyreans meaning that the Gloam Eyed Queen must have been forgotten by that point) Melina is not only the kindling maiden who sets the Erdtree on fire, or has the fire butterfly as her butterfly but she is also most likely the Gloam Eyed Queen. The Gloam Eyed Queen had the power of the god-slaying blackflame. Radagon's and Marika's children are all born of a single god so they are cursed empyreans. We know this about Miquella and Malenia, and while it's not stated that Messmer is an empyrean, he too, has a curse, the abyssal serpent. Makes me wonder, what could be Melina's curse...
@@titanus261 Not sure what you mean by time in reality gradually decreasing. I always tought Melina's loss of memory/self and loss of physical body is because Maliketh defeated her and the godskins and sealed away destined death (which could be the same for Melina as Scarlet Rot is for Malenia)
@@cowhale2488 what i meant was that she gradually have less and less time in the real world, unlike torrent who's there until you call him off or is near a castle where he seemingly cant spawn, i though melina had the same problem but she can only appear very shortly.
Always weirds me out with the timeline though, as it feels Melina and Messmer are vastly older somehow, so I wonder are they children of union prior to the two becoming of one body?
My interpretation of Marika/Radagon is that the latter was always part of Marika as a separate conscience since she was born, similar to Miquella and St Trina (presumably). Assuming that the godhood ritual Marika used is similar to the one Miquella used, it requires a Lord to usher in the god. It was at this point that Marika separated Radagon from herself and he became the Lord. We don't know how much time elapsed between this ritual and Mariak obtaining the Elden Ring and officially founding the Golden Order but I believe there was a nice chunk of time in the middle as Marika got her bearings and planned things out. It's during this window that Marika and Radagon had Messmer and Melina. Why Marika didn't go ahead and make Radagon her first Elden Lord is unclear but my assumption is that she saw Godfrey as having more of the qualities of a conquerer that she needed to establish her Order so she chose him and sent Radagon off to be a Champion in her armies. This is just my interpretation of it all but it's how I think it makes the most sense.
Melina and Messmer being the oldest demigods puts the timeline into better perspective after the DLC. It reveals that Marika and Radagon (whether you believe they were always “ONE” or not) were always together since the beginning, and fated to end with eachother. The first cursed children are a result of a possibly unofficial and/or illegitimate union wir Radagon before her first ACTUAL husband, Hoarah Loux, came along. As such, they are the only children of Marika who would be technically born out-of-Grace so to speak, as the Era of Marika’s Grace-filled Erdtree wouldn’t start until her and Hoarah Loux would defeat the fire giants. And that’s a big hint for the timeline too, that if Marika was with Godfrey for the Fire Giant War - before the era of the Erdtree began - then Messmer and Melina would’ve been born way before that event, as the only children born out of Grace. Essentially, the crux of it: Messmer and Melina were the illegitimate children of Radagon and Marika. Radagon and Marika were in each other’s lives way before Marika even met Godfrey and before she birthed the Golden Lineage. Baby serpent and queen death are much older than what people think they look like in game. Remember, even Leda ONLY refers to Messmer as “Sir.” Like an elderly lol. This reinforces the idea reiterated in the DLC and the Basegame that Messmer and Melina are the ONLY children Miquella hasn’t interacted with due to SUCH a difference in age, timeline-wise. As such, Miquella’s followers would probably feel the same way about Messmer as miquella did, from an outside perspective
One possible explanation is that they're not actually that old. They might be the first children of Marika - the Abyssal Serpent and the Gloam Eyed Queen, but they still might have been born in the era of the Erdtree, after the fight with the Fire Giants that inspired Radagon. It is just weird though. I really want more info.
@@lordtrinen2249feels a bit weird tho, she would not just switch plans and renounce half of her just because she saw the gigachad we all love, godfrey must have been a part of the plan before he started conquering the map. And instead radagon was the improvisation, when godfrey could not beat the carians she split to seduce renala then she was like wait a minute I can just shag myself instead of risking another morgoth and mogh
Idk if Radagon and Marika were ORIGINALLY the same being. I am currently of the mind that Messmer and Melina were each products of an affair that Marika had with Radagon during her marriage with Godfrey and the periods between the Liurnian Wars. Them being cursed because of being birthed from a product of Marika committing a sin makes sense... or Radagon's biology would weirdly conflict with Marika's, resulting in their cursed children. The affair happening after Godwyn's birth and before the Omen Twins would make sense... though i find it funny to think of Melina older than Morgott/Mohg.
Yea. I was super bummed out when we got like 90 more crucible items that say the same stuff we already knew. Same with the Metyr quest and Death Knights. Dlc was a huge missed opportunity to have more lore stuff
I still wonder about the consistency of the M naming convention though, given Morgott and Mohg-maybe it’s just that if they have the letter G anywhere in the name, they’re a child of Godfrey?
I'm still convinced that Vaati is Messmer. They both have the red esthetic goin on, and both have the 1 gold/yellow eye. Just ask Vaati who his dad is n bam. Case close. It's a dude named Thomas.
i think messmer was either born way later in the time line after godfrey was banished or his father is some one else we have not met before. also the dlc never mentions radagon in the game and there is not item text or dialogue that says or even mentions radagon being his father.
It's definitely an analogy to that, I think. Messmer, Miquella and Malenia are very clearly cursed. Melina is a more ambiguous case, but if her flesh is a "kindling" then I imagine she is similarly cursed as Messmer himself. It seems the Carian demigod lineage and Godwyn are the only children not born with curses.
I believe this is true. But I don't know if this first union between them would be a lot further in the past before Godfrey or after the Liurnian wars. Either way, even though he would have all the requisites of being an empyrean, chosen by the fingers, he isn't because he specifically is shorn of light, even compared to another empyrean like Malenia, cursed, but still has her Grace.
It makes me wonder if Messmers curse seems to be coveting the abyss, could Melina's be coveting light aka grace?Maybe she's literally only tangible as grace, hence why getting into the capital is where she can move freely so close to the erdtree.
@@professiggitways I don’t think masculinity or femininity plays apart in who can be elected by the 2 fingers. That’s something specifically in the carian royals culture.
@@Dbonesburneraccountbro if you can't make the connection between femininity and empyreans in this game idk how you think you can follow the lore. Marika and the GEQ are both the only other named Empyreans, and I can't wait for your argument that either of them aren't feminine.
@@geordiejones5618 Okay? I never made an argument saying Marika&the GEQ aren’t feminine. I’m just wondering why Messmer wasn’t chosen to be an empyrean like his siblings were.
@@Dbonesburneraccountdidn't have a womb. All previous Empyreans have the capability to bear children. It would also explain why shedding the divine flesh seems very important to the more rebellious Empyreans like Ranni and Miquella. They're divesting themselves of the ability to bear children.
I think the empyreans who actually have a chance at becoming gods or more powerful beings have lighter colored hair, showing they share a similar motive to Marika. That’s why Miquella has blonde hair and Melina had light rosy hair
I think the GEQ is messmers and melanias mom and radagon is the dad, the GEQ was a giant snake pregnant with twins, Marika killed her and took the kids
Wasent Melina confirmed to be marikas child by the messmers kindling items description? Its been a while since i played the dlc but i remember it mentioning it.
I know that Rykard is definitely Radagon's son, but he does not have red hair. He clearly has blond hair, even in the picture you used of him while talking about him being red-haired.
So, I have a bit of a running theory about Marika's children. All of her children are cursed and each gen has three children. Correct me if I am wrong, but maleketh is specifically identified as Marika's half brother--i I think he might be her eldest child, born when she was far too young so passed as her brother. Blidd for ranni is identified as a step brother--no blood relation. This generation was born to contain sin; malaketh born to contain destined death, Melina is the essence of marika's former identity of the gloam eyed queen with visions of the burning to come. Messier contains the leftovers for better word. Snakes were important to GEQ, so him holding the snake destined to consume males sense too. The golden generation is more obvious, though Godwyn seems to be used to hold elements of the crucible just like the omen twins--some would argue he is the malformed dragon on one of the helms which is why his body has the tail that we see. Radan cused with gigantism and the inability to let go, ricard is obviously cursed with madness, ranni is cursed to never feel right in her own skin. St Trina is the missing child in the last set. I also believe st Trina is the only reason miquella is an emperyon seeing that every other emperyon mentioned is female. It makes the shedding of st Trina much deeper.
No she is a worshipper of Rot that lost everything during Mesmmer's crusade and so created Scarlet rot and asked someone or rot god to curse one of Marika's children as revenge. Either that or Rot god got mad after losing most of his followers and used Romina's scarlet Rot.
I still don’t understand how Radagon having children with Marika caused Melania to be born with Scarlet Rot. Did the Goddess of Rot infect Marika when she was pregnant or something? Did the Greater Will teleport rot inside Malenia when she was just an embryo? Miqeulla not being able to age makes sense as his curse since aging is part of genetics, and we know incest fucks genes up, but Malenia’s case is too weird. My headcanon is Malenia was born fine but got Scarlet Rot after getting infected by it after trying to seal it away with the Blind Swordsman.
There are a lot of theories regarding this. One is that the children arent actually "born" but created/crafted, through a process much less human - this is why Radagon's naturally born children with Renalla arent cursed. A Natural Union between two people prevents an Outer God from filling part of a Soul Void a la Alchemy/etc.. Something we see very commonly in the Nox items and lore the game gives us is similar, the mimic tears need a soul to imprint as theyre jnable to have their own, and outside the First Gen albinaurics, those crafted with frog-like appearances trying to fix the leg degradation Flaw of Flesh, they swap a Flaw of Flesh woth a Flaw of Soul, and the frog albinaurics traverse aimlessly, constantly, trying to find something to fill that void
The lore surrounding this is so interesting. I feel like there's still so much mystery surrounding Marika's journey to godhood. Was Messmer and Melina born in the Bonny Village, where we find the snake skin? They definitely don't seem to be children of Marika/Godfrey, probably predating that. But was Radagon part of Marika that early? Radagon, in some way inspired by the Fire Giants?
In my opinion Messmer is the Son of the Gloam Eyed Queen and that Radagon is his Father, explaining how he was able to kidnap him as a baby from her and deliver him to Marika as his new Mother.
The gloom eyed queen was an empyrean from marikas empyrean days, either she defeated her for the time being g or marika is the gloom eyed queen, but radagon has the curse of being born from the union of marika and radagon, since they were the same person they would have 26 of the same chromosomes, meaning that malenia miquella mesmer and possibly Melina, who is also cursed with an unknown power in her right eye, are all actually just demigods with down syndrome which may affect them differently than regular bumans
When you defeat Messmer he says "Mother, Marika. A curse upon thee". And there is a big statue with baby Messmer and Marika. Marika is definently the mother. And Melina his little sister. And he has a curse like Malenia and Miquella.
There's even a theory I heard from another ER Loretuber saying Messmer and Melina we're children of the Gloam Eyed Queen fathered by Radagon. Basically implying Marika used Radagon to.....infiltrate....her inner circle...Melina and Messmer a0re adopted, yeah. Renalla was not the first victim of Marika's red haired Rizzault Rifle.
@@colinnixon7739 which me think that maybe marika created him using magic or that godfrey had red hair in his youth as all the depictions of godfrey we see, seem to have grayish white hair colour and look old.
Not fully convinced tho... the timeline doesn't add up first, since Messmer lived in the Lands Between while Radagon was openly married to Rennala, and up to that point, that was the only thing people knew of him, outside of his prowess in the Liurnia Wars, where he was a "nobody". Even the red hairs have a precedent for not being a 100% definitive proof: Miquella has blonde hair and there is a little possibility that Rykard may have been blonde, which would mean that somehow Marika's traits manifested (through Radagon) in a son of Rennala, which would mean that likewise, Radagon's traits could manifest through Marika in a children that is not his own. There are also certain elements that link Messmer to Godfrey and the Golden Lineage: his insignia strongly resemble Morgott and Mohg's Great Runes, he has a wise animal companion that keeps at bay his (literal) dark side and his elite force, the Black Knights, are practicers of the Crucible Incantations, like Godfrey's Crucible Knights. These are not undisputable proof neither, I want to make this clear, it's just that both possibilities do not satisfy me personally as of now, and given what we are allowed to know, should more proof come out, I'd gladly accept whoever is his father.
He simply might have been fan of Godfrey like Radahann and so warriors that were also fan of Godfrey followed him on a crusade. He is kind of opposite of Godfrey. Godfrey had loyal warriors that followed him to the end no matter where and probably knew about his real origins. Messmer on the other hand had very few royal to him that decided to stay despite knowing about his curse and others turned on him after finding out about his curse.
Messmer is a bastard born of marika and radagon, but he didn't know his real father. Godfrey was most likely his mom's husband. Kinda like a step dad or sort. He was likely raised in godfrey era. Wears gladiator armor and uses spear. A very famous weapon amongst the golden lineage. Whilst other children of radagon mainly use swords.
@SmoughTown Wait. The only reason Radagon has Red Hair is due to the curse from the Giant genocide. And we know Marika was with Godfrey during the time of the war against the Giants. This means Messmer had to have been born after Godfrey was exiled if you want him to have Red Hair. But that doesn't match up with the timeline. With the connection and relationship, Messmar has with Rellana and as well as the likes of Radahn. So this entire theory about Messmar being a child of Marika x Radagon has massive plot holes.
It’s very likely Messmer and Melina could have been born out of wedlock/an affair Marika had with Radagon while Godfrey was away fighting on behalf of her Golden Order.
@@Yharim_The_Impaler yeah but the game says radagon came into existence after the war of the giants when godfrey was banished, so her having an affair with him seems very unlikly. my guess is that messmer either was born long after godfrey was banished or that messmers father is some one else we have not met.
@@cool2314 He only made his first public appearance during the First Liurnian Wars. There’s plenty of room before for Radagon to have done other things. Like have Messmer with Marika.
@@Yharim_The_Impaler yeah but if that was the case then there would have been item descriptions and dialogue that say he came earlier. the the dlc also makes zero mention of him so i think its safe to say that he could not have shown up earlier as there is no item description or dialogue that says he did so i think the writers want his creation to be after the war of the giants otherwise there would be lore saying he was born before then.
@@cool2314Radagon wasn't known to Golden Order and it's people he is said to come on a golden horse, then after that participate in Fell Giants and Lurian wars. He could have been known to Marika but not to golden order and Layandell's citizens. After all he is a man of secrets. He could have existed before that, since Marika and finger alliance is pretty old. And he wasn't said to be created from mimic tears, that's still unconfirmed theory.
Morgott and Mogh have the M but were born of Godfrey and Marika. Miquella had blonde hair like Godwyn. finally about curses Mogh and Morgott were also cursed. So he is as likely to be offspring of Radagon/Marika as of Godfrey/Marika
Azazel, represents the fallen angel. In other media, Dragons are often depicted as fallen angels with 4 or more wings. Azazel seeks the forbidden knowledge, which in the game seems to represent creation of life through alchemy. Azazel also seems to be the one that teaches alchemy to humanity. Turning any type of material, into gold, which, in a metaphysical sense, represents creating new life or self-transformation. Azazel also seems to have strong ties with rebelling against the divine order. Chaos existed, the One Great created order and somebody didn't agree with that Order, and created a new Order. Radagon represents Azazel. The wings are often symbolic of their rank or status in the celestial hierarchy. In games like Final Fantasy 7, Sephirot has 7 wings, where his name and wings are a nod to the Kabbalah, looking to become whole (the missing square in the middle of the tree, called the Da'at). We see in Elden Ring that drakes get treated like outcasts because they only have 2 wings. The Demi-gods aren't really Marika's children, they're Marika's archetypes. Radagon represents Marika's Male traits (Animus). Farum Azula was Marika's guiding light (Lighthouse of Alexandria, Pharos). Melina is the wise old man archetype (old king or owl in zelda), leading you to the moment when Marika lost her guiding light. She has the knowledge and looks at the current world with regret, wanting to go back to the 'good old days'. She'll keep trying to reset the world, until she finally gets the outcome she desires. She needs your help to reach the goal, but she needs to be the one to burn it down. If you interfere, Marika will never become whole, because somebody else can't make you whole, you have to do that yourself. If you were to force your fix on the world, it will result in her resenting you. The shattering takes place on a tree stump. That's because an ego-death took place. Resulting in the Ego getting stabbed. Which character represents the ego? Probably the one that's been stabbed with the holy lance, the spear of Longinus. The Erdtree seems to represent the Persona. We're dealing with somebody who's struggling with the concept of death, which is a traumatic event for them that they simply can't overcome. My read on the whole thing, is survivors guilt, because of that, this world can't achieve wholeness/individuality/Da'at. So, this is why we see so many crafted beings (the original sin in Gnosticism, Sophia trying to create life, aka. The demiurge), they're trying to create a replacement to fill a missing part of themselves. The death of an unborn child. Tarnished represent determination, maidens represent willpower. Miquella is the divine child, Malenia is the wounded warrior, Ranni is the outcast, Margit is the everyday man, Mohg is the rebel. Godrick is the orphan, Godwyn is the hero. Maliketh is the beast. Red invaders are intrusive thoughts & emotions, blue are suppressed thoughts & emotions. As above, so below. Marika represents the Ego. Land of shadow represents the shadow in the collective unconscious, the lands between represents the collective consciousness. For the god to become whole, and move on from the traumatic event, the quaternity needs to take place... Self (Salt), Ego (Mercury), shadow (Death/Nigredo) and the Animus (Sulfur). Which, will take many more attempts. I actually believe the story of the empyrean is based on the concept of Thoth, Horus and Khonsu. Empyrean is a concept used by many games, most of the time depicted with a golden and a dusk eye (Horus (sun god) and Khonsu (moon god, that protects travelers and offers healing)). And, then we have Hermes Trismegistus, which is a combination of the Egyptian god Thoth (moon god of wisdom, writing, and knowledge) and Roman god Hermes (travelers, commerce, communication, boundaries, and trickery). This is probably where the double Moon (Thoth and Khonsu) concept comes from, and this also ties it all back to Alexandria (the lighthouse of Alexandria, the guiding light), which ties it all back to Hermes Trismegistus. 1 tablet is considered The Emerald Tablet and focuses on the interconnectedness of the microcosm and the macrocosm, how everything comes from the One (confirmed by Ymir), and includes the alchemical formula for turning base materials (like lead) into gold. So, my guess, the second tablet is about the quaternity, and referencing only the new One god (aka. the demiurge/creature) concept. Marika basically tried to erase history and creating a new history to take its place. "The Temple of Khonsu at Karnak is in a relatively good state of preservation, and on one of the walls is depicted a creation myth in which Khonsu is described as the great snake who fertilizes the Cosmic Egg in the creation of the world". Which, represents the Inner world that's created from Chaos, and ruled by the ignorant fake god... And the ultimate goal is spiritual enlightenment, but that's simply not going to happen in Elden Ring.
If the first letter of the demigod names comes from the mother, why does Godwyn's name start with G? And if you argue Godwyn is named after his dad's G, and the Carian R kids are named after Radagon rather than Rennala, who are all these M daddies? Something is funky.
The first letter of the name is no proof. Regard Mohg and Morgott. Red hair also is no must. Look at Rykard, who most propably did not share the red hair
@@kassjazzy that is interesting but lol the mystery would then be why she had kids with the fell god and then got godfrey to murder his worshippers and seal him away.
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This raises questions about Melina
Is she a demigod ?
Is she an empyrean ?
Is she sealing another powerful being on her eye ?
Which powerful being ?
Does she like jazz ?
Miyazki confirmed in an interview that Melina does indeed like jazz
Well if Melina is Marika's daughter like her ingame files suggests she's a demigodess. If she's also the Gloam-Eyed Queen like many believes she's an empyrean too, and the eye seal could be just her innate God-slaying flame that was locked by the Rune of Death's sealing (and unlocked in Frenzy ending). Truly the greatest mystery is does she likes jazz?
It’s weird that she’s the only demigod with good intentions (restoring destined death to the world)
you can also connect Melina to Marika how Millicent is to Malenia. Melina could be Marika's Free Will when she ascended to godhood judging by how defensive she gets about Marika's plans and her own desires for burning the Erdtree in the Mountaintops regions.
@@shahriar4706_ and that she can relay Marika's words to us at Sites of Grace. And the implication that she regained memories after fighting Morgott (or maybe leading up to it when she leaves us at the first Site we rest at). She's the Kindling Maiden with a vision of fire who can cast Marika's secret incantation of the kindness of Gold before Order, the Minor Erdtree. Not to mention it's a more powerful version than the one we get. As you said, there's a chance Melina is the Will of Marika just like Millicent travels to Elphael to give Malenia the Will she lost to meet Radahn's measure in Aeonia. Fun stuff.
Also, Messmer's musical theme is a variation of Radagon's musical theme. That's no coincidence.
WHAT?!? I HAVE TO CHECK
Is it really? That’s so sick
another small hint is the ost for messmer shares a lot of motifs with the radagon theme which is often used to indicate connections between characters like romina- malenia and elden beast- metyr
I love how the children of Marika and Radagon each have a butterfly. Also dlc softly confirms Melina is a child of Marika and Messmer's sister
Where?
@@titanus261 Read Messmer's Kindling
"Messmer, much like his younger sister, bore a vision of fire."
This could only be Melina, Malenia or Ranni but neither Ranni or Malenia is connected to fire. Melina and Messmer seem to be long forgotten demigods, that's why nobody talks about them. (Ranni only mentions herself, Miquella and Malenia when she talks about empyreans meaning that the Gloam Eyed Queen must have been forgotten by that point)
Melina is not only the kindling maiden who sets the Erdtree on fire, or has the fire butterfly as her butterfly but she is also most likely the Gloam Eyed Queen. The Gloam Eyed Queen had the power of the god-slaying blackflame.
Radagon's and Marika's children are all born of a single god so they are cursed empyreans. We know this about Miquella and Malenia, and while it's not stated that Messmer is an empyrean, he too, has a curse, the abyssal serpent. Makes me wonder, what could be Melina's curse...
@@cowhale2488 not having a physical body anymore and rather, just like torrent being a spirit who's time in reality gradually decrease?
@@titanus261 Not sure what you mean by time in reality gradually decreasing. I always tought Melina's loss of memory/self and loss of physical body is because Maliketh defeated her and the godskins and sealed away destined death (which could be the same for Melina as Scarlet Rot is for Malenia)
@@cowhale2488 what i meant was that she gradually have less and less time in the real world, unlike torrent who's there until you call him off or is near a castle where he seemingly cant spawn, i though melina had the same problem but she can only appear very shortly.
Always weirds me out with the timeline though, as it feels Melina and Messmer are vastly older somehow, so I wonder are they children of union prior to the two becoming of one body?
My interpretation of Marika/Radagon is that the latter was always part of Marika as a separate conscience since she was born, similar to Miquella and St Trina (presumably). Assuming that the godhood ritual Marika used is similar to the one Miquella used, it requires a Lord to usher in the god. It was at this point that Marika separated Radagon from herself and he became the Lord. We don't know how much time elapsed between this ritual and Mariak obtaining the Elden Ring and officially founding the Golden Order but I believe there was a nice chunk of time in the middle as Marika got her bearings and planned things out. It's during this window that Marika and Radagon had Messmer and Melina. Why Marika didn't go ahead and make Radagon her first Elden Lord is unclear but my assumption is that she saw Godfrey as having more of the qualities of a conquerer that she needed to establish her Order so she chose him and sent Radagon off to be a Champion in her armies.
This is just my interpretation of it all but it's how I think it makes the most sense.
Melina and Messmer being the oldest demigods puts the timeline into better perspective after the DLC. It reveals that Marika and Radagon (whether you believe they were always “ONE” or not) were always together since the beginning, and fated to end with eachother. The first cursed children are a result of a possibly unofficial and/or illegitimate union wir Radagon before her first ACTUAL husband, Hoarah Loux, came along. As such, they are the only children of Marika who would be technically born out-of-Grace so to speak, as the Era of Marika’s Grace-filled Erdtree wouldn’t start until her and Hoarah Loux would defeat the fire giants. And that’s a big hint for the timeline too, that if Marika was with Godfrey for the Fire Giant War - before the era of the Erdtree began - then Messmer and Melina would’ve been born way before that event, as the only children born out of Grace.
Essentially, the crux of it: Messmer and Melina were the illegitimate children of Radagon and Marika. Radagon and Marika were in each other’s lives way before Marika even met Godfrey and before she birthed the Golden Lineage. Baby serpent and queen death are much older than what people think they look like in game. Remember, even Leda ONLY refers to Messmer as “Sir.” Like an elderly lol. This reinforces the idea reiterated in the DLC and the Basegame that Messmer and Melina are the ONLY children Miquella hasn’t interacted with due to SUCH a difference in age, timeline-wise. As such, Miquella’s followers would probably feel the same way about Messmer as miquella did, from an outside perspective
One possible explanation is that they're not actually that old. They might be the first children of Marika - the Abyssal Serpent and the Gloam Eyed Queen, but they still might have been born in the era of the Erdtree, after the fight with the Fire Giants that inspired Radagon.
It is just weird though. I really want more info.
@@lordtrinen2249feels a bit weird tho, she would not just switch plans and renounce half of her just because she saw the gigachad we all love, godfrey must have been a part of the plan before he started conquering the map. And instead radagon was the improvisation, when godfrey could not beat the carians she split to seduce renala then she was like wait a minute I can just shag myself instead of risking another morgoth and mogh
@@lordtrinen2249but Godfrey was the first Elden lord
Idk if Radagon and Marika were ORIGINALLY the same being. I am currently of the mind that Messmer and Melina were each products of an affair that Marika had with Radagon during her marriage with Godfrey and the periods between the Liurnian Wars.
Them being cursed because of being birthed from a product of Marika committing a sin makes sense... or Radagon's biology would weirdly conflict with Marika's, resulting in their cursed children.
The affair happening after Godwyn's birth and before the Omen Twins would make sense... though i find it funny to think of Melina older than Morgott/Mohg.
Weird not to have any Radagon reference in the DLC
They never mention the marika radagon situation at all and that was the only piece of lore I gave a fuck about 😂
I believe they borned as one like Miquella and Trina. @@colinnixon7739
Yea. I was super bummed out when we got like 90 more crucible items that say the same stuff we already knew. Same with the Metyr quest and Death Knights. Dlc was a huge missed opportunity to have more lore stuff
@@jasonbelcho8609 there is so much lore packed into the DLC…. just say you didn’t explore and read at all.
Messmer is the reference 😂😂😂
I still wonder about the consistency of the M naming convention though, given Morgott and Mohg-maybe it’s just that if they have the letter G anywhere in the name, they’re a child of Godfrey?
@@dylanmiller9162
seems to be like this:
m prefix = cursed
god prefix = golden lineage
Can we talk about how Melina's hair is a mix of blonde and red? 👀
It might be sightly blonde due to the fact that she is a spirit,but she could be has both.
I'm still convinced that Vaati is Messmer. They both have the red esthetic goin on, and both have the 1 gold/yellow eye.
Just ask Vaati who his dad is n bam. Case close. It's a dude named Thomas.
Oh my god you're right. First time I heard Messmer's voice, I thought "this dude is some Jane Austin fanfic character", but this is even better.
Damn I saw vaati and I was like “wait from the legend of Zelda four swords?”
Vaati is a storyteller, not a loremaster.
@@CrescentCrusader99 lmao what?
@@r3gret2079there's a TH-camr named vatti I forget the rest of his name that does elden ring lore videos
i think messmer was either born way later in the time line after godfrey was banished or his father is some one else we have not met before. also the dlc never mentions radagon in the game and there is not item text or dialogue that says or even mentions radagon being his father.
Meanwhile Messmer's ost having final battle lemotif which is an OST that plays during the Radagon fight:
It makes me think that perhaps the curses the children of Marika and Radagon receive are a kind of effect from inbreeding?
It's definitely an analogy to that, I think. Messmer, Miquella and Malenia are very clearly cursed. Melina is a more ambiguous case, but if her flesh is a "kindling" then I imagine she is similarly cursed as Messmer himself.
It seems the Carian demigod lineage and Godwyn are the only children not born with curses.
Messmer is the best boss in the game. Melina is the best character in the game. Best Brother and sister duo
I believe this is true. But I don't know if this first union between them would be a lot further in the past before Godfrey or after the Liurnian wars.
Either way, even though he would have all the requisites of being an empyrean, chosen by the fingers, he isn't because he specifically is shorn of light, even compared to another empyrean like Malenia, cursed, but still has her Grace.
It makes me wonder if Messmers curse seems to be coveting the abyss, could Melina's be coveting light aka grace?Maybe she's literally only tangible as grace, hence why getting into the capital is where she can move freely so close to the erdtree.
It’s mighty quiet here…
I had a thought some time ago, maybe the starting letters have to do with the mothers name, in this game.
Just a random take.
I wonder what stopped Messmer from being an Empyrean? Theoretically he has the same prerequisites as his siblings to become a god.
I think it has to be a woman (or in miquella’s case, feminine)
@@professiggitways I don’t think masculinity or femininity plays apart in who can be elected by the 2 fingers. That’s something specifically in the carian royals culture.
@@Dbonesburneraccountbro if you can't make the connection between femininity and empyreans in this game idk how you think you can follow the lore. Marika and the GEQ are both the only other named Empyreans, and I can't wait for your argument that either of them aren't feminine.
@@geordiejones5618 Okay? I never made an argument saying Marika&the GEQ aren’t feminine. I’m just wondering why Messmer wasn’t chosen to be an empyrean like his siblings were.
@@Dbonesburneraccountdidn't have a womb. All previous Empyreans have the capability to bear children. It would also explain why shedding the divine flesh seems very important to the more rebellious Empyreans like Ranni and Miquella. They're divesting themselves of the ability to bear children.
I think the empyreans who actually have a chance at becoming gods or more powerful beings have lighter colored hair, showing they share a similar motive to Marika. That’s why Miquella has blonde hair and Melina had light rosy hair
I think the GEQ is messmers and melanias mom and radagon is the dad, the GEQ was a giant snake pregnant with twins, Marika killed her and took the kids
Wasent Melina confirmed to be marikas child by the messmers kindling items description? Its been a while since i played the dlc but i remember it mentioning it.
Yeah it is confirmed.
Missed Butterfles connection
I know that Rykard is definitely Radagon's son, but he does not have red hair. He clearly has blond hair, even in the picture you used of him while talking about him being red-haired.
So, I have a bit of a running theory about Marika's children. All of her children are cursed and each gen has three children. Correct me if I am wrong, but maleketh is specifically identified as Marika's half brother--i I think he might be her eldest child, born when she was far too young so passed as her brother. Blidd for ranni is identified as a step brother--no blood relation. This generation was born to contain sin; malaketh born to contain destined death, Melina is the essence of marika's former identity of the gloam eyed queen with visions of the burning to come. Messier contains the leftovers for better word. Snakes were important to GEQ, so him holding the snake destined to consume males sense too. The golden generation is more obvious, though Godwyn seems to be used to hold elements of the crucible just like the omen twins--some would argue he is the malformed dragon on one of the helms which is why his body has the tail that we see. Radan cused with gigantism and the inability to let go, ricard is obviously cursed with madness, ranni is cursed to never feel right in her own skin. St Trina is the missing child in the last set. I also believe st Trina is the only reason miquella is an emperyon seeing that every other emperyon mentioned is female. It makes the shedding of st Trina much deeper.
Marika had more children than that, they lie in walking mausoleums.
The real question is Romina of the bud...was she a child too?
Rykard, Radhan etc
No she is a worshipper of Rot that lost everything during Mesmmer's crusade and so created Scarlet rot and asked someone or rot god to curse one of Marika's children as revenge.
Either that or Rot god got mad after losing most of his followers and used Romina's scarlet Rot.
I just want to know which outer god is tied to Miquella & his eternal youth
I still don’t understand how Radagon having children with Marika caused Melania to be born with Scarlet Rot. Did the Goddess of Rot infect Marika when she was pregnant or something? Did the Greater Will teleport rot inside Malenia when she was just an embryo? Miqeulla not being able to age makes sense as his curse since aging is part of genetics, and we know incest fucks genes up, but Malenia’s case is too weird. My headcanon is Malenia was born fine but got Scarlet Rot after getting infected by it after trying to seal it away with the Blind Swordsman.
I think messmer is snakespawn
Moqulla has blomde hair tho
Melina does have a “curse” does she not? Born to be kindling seems like a curse.
Why did Marika self-procreate if she knew her children with Radagon were born with flaws.
There are a lot of theories regarding this. One is that the children arent actually "born" but created/crafted, through a process much less human - this is why Radagon's naturally born children with Renalla arent cursed. A Natural Union between two people prevents an Outer God from filling part of a Soul Void a la Alchemy/etc.. Something we see very commonly in the Nox items and lore the game gives us is similar, the mimic tears need a soul to imprint as theyre jnable to have their own, and outside the First Gen albinaurics, those crafted with frog-like appearances trying to fix the leg degradation Flaw of Flesh, they swap a Flaw of Flesh woth a Flaw of Soul, and the frog albinaurics traverse aimlessly, constantly, trying to find something to fill that void
I keep hearing this based on the letter M, but no one brings up Morgott or Mohg. What gives?
I never realized there is the term "bani israel" which represents lost tribes of Israel. Makes me think of Bonny Village differently
Theres a reason the base game has no reference to messmer. It would cause plot holes.
Messmer is the greatest Elden Ring Boss
Miquella does not have red hair tho
The lore surrounding this is so interesting. I feel like there's still so much mystery surrounding Marika's journey to godhood. Was Messmer and Melina born in the Bonny Village, where we find the snake skin? They definitely don't seem to be children of Marika/Godfrey, probably predating that. But was Radagon part of Marika that early? Radagon, in some way inspired by the Fire Giants?
Elden ring dlc just came to confirm that timeline is fucked up and makes no sense 😅😅😅
In my opinion Messmer is the Son of the Gloam Eyed Queen and that Radagon is his Father, explaining how he was able to kidnap him as a baby from her and deliver him to Marika as his new Mother.
The gloom eyed queen was an empyrean from marikas empyrean days, either she defeated her for the time being g or marika is the gloom eyed queen, but radagon has the curse of being born from the union of marika and radagon, since they were the same person they would have 26 of the same chromosomes, meaning that malenia miquella mesmer and possibly Melina, who is also cursed with an unknown power in her right eye, are all actually just demigods with down syndrome which may affect them differently than regular bumans
When you defeat Messmer he says "Mother, Marika. A curse upon thee". And there is a big statue with baby Messmer and Marika. Marika is definently the mother. And Melina his little sister. And he has a curse like Malenia and Miquella.
@@Lena-de2ws marika is definitely his mother but maybe not biologically and more like adopted.
@@cool2314 yeah but because of the curses I don't think he is adopted
Rykard doesn’t have red hair. There’s 2 pictures of pre-snake Rykard and both depictions have what looks like brown hair
There's even a theory I heard from another ER Loretuber saying Messmer and Melina we're children of the Gloam Eyed Queen fathered by Radagon. Basically implying Marika used Radagon to.....infiltrate....her inner circle...Melina and Messmer a0re adopted, yeah. Renalla was not the first victim of Marika's red haired Rizzault Rifle.
Radagon isn't mentioned in the dlc at all.
@@colinnixon7739 which me think that maybe marika created him using magic or that godfrey had red hair in his youth as all the depictions of godfrey we see, seem to have grayish white hair colour and look old.
So tiredof the melina headcanon
Not fully convinced tho... the timeline doesn't add up first, since Messmer lived in the Lands Between while Radagon was openly married to Rennala, and up to that point, that was the only thing people knew of him, outside of his prowess in the Liurnia Wars, where he was a "nobody".
Even the red hairs have a precedent for not being a 100% definitive proof: Miquella has blonde hair and there is a little possibility that Rykard may have been blonde, which would mean that somehow Marika's traits manifested (through Radagon) in a son of Rennala, which would mean that likewise, Radagon's traits could manifest through Marika in a children that is not his own. There are also certain elements that link Messmer to Godfrey and the Golden Lineage: his insignia strongly resemble Morgott and Mohg's Great Runes, he has a wise animal companion that keeps at bay his (literal) dark side and his elite force, the Black Knights, are practicers of the Crucible Incantations, like Godfrey's Crucible Knights.
These are not undisputable proof neither, I want to make this clear, it's just that both possibilities do not satisfy me personally as of now, and given what we are allowed to know, should more proof come out, I'd gladly accept whoever is his father.
He simply might have been fan of Godfrey like Radahann and so warriors that were also fan of Godfrey followed him on a crusade.
He is kind of opposite of Godfrey.
Godfrey had loyal warriors that followed him to the end no matter where and probably knew about his real origins.
Messmer on the other hand had very few royal to him that decided to stay despite knowing about his curse and others turned on him after finding out about his curse.
Messmer is a bastard born of marika and radagon, but he didn't know his real father. Godfrey was most likely his mom's husband. Kinda like a step dad or sort. He was likely raised in godfrey era. Wears gladiator armor and uses spear. A very famous weapon amongst the golden lineage. Whilst other children of radagon mainly use swords.
my theory is that messmer & melina were born of marika & only marika, and messmer precedes radagon
@SmoughTown Wait. The only reason Radagon has Red Hair is due to the curse from the Giant genocide.
And we know Marika was with Godfrey during the time of the war against the Giants. This means Messmer had to have been born after Godfrey was exiled if you want him to have Red Hair.
But that doesn't match up with the timeline. With the connection and relationship, Messmar has with Rellana and as well as the likes of Radahn.
So this entire theory about Messmar being a child of Marika x Radagon has massive plot holes.
It’s very likely Messmer and Melina could have been born out of wedlock/an affair Marika had with Radagon while Godfrey was away fighting on behalf of her Golden Order.
@@Yharim_The_Impaler yeah but the game says radagon came into existence after the war of the giants when godfrey was banished, so her having an affair with him seems very unlikly. my guess is that messmer either was born long after godfrey was banished or that messmers father is some one else we have not met.
@@cool2314 He only made his first public appearance during the First Liurnian Wars. There’s plenty of room before for Radagon to have done other things. Like have Messmer with Marika.
@@Yharim_The_Impaler yeah but if that was the case then there would have been item descriptions and dialogue that say he came earlier. the the dlc also makes zero mention of him so i think its safe to say that he could not have shown up earlier as there is no item description or dialogue that says he did so i think the writers want his creation to be after the war of the giants otherwise there would be lore saying he was born before then.
@@cool2314Radagon wasn't known to Golden Order and it's people he is said to come on a golden horse, then after that participate in Fell Giants and Lurian wars.
He could have been known to Marika but not to golden order and Layandell's citizens.
After all he is a man of secrets.
He could have existed before that, since Marika and finger alliance is pretty old.
And he wasn't said to be created from mimic tears, that's still unconfirmed theory.
Too much incest and nonsense
Rykard doesnr have red hair,his hair is more white blonde.
Morgott and Mogh have the M but were born of Godfrey and Marika. Miquella had blonde hair like Godwyn. finally about curses Mogh and Morgott were also cursed. So he is as likely to be offspring of Radagon/Marika as of Godfrey/Marika
More likely Radagon cause of Messmer’s power over fire is a link to him
morgott and mohg have the m either because they have the omen “curse” or they are twins
Azazel, represents the fallen angel. In other media, Dragons are often depicted as fallen angels with 4 or more wings. Azazel seeks the forbidden knowledge, which in the game seems to represent creation of life through alchemy. Azazel also seems to be the one that teaches alchemy to humanity. Turning any type of material, into gold, which, in a metaphysical sense, represents creating new life or self-transformation. Azazel also seems to have strong ties with rebelling against the divine order. Chaos existed, the One Great created order and somebody didn't agree with that Order, and created a new Order. Radagon represents Azazel.
The wings are often symbolic of their rank or status in the celestial hierarchy. In games like Final Fantasy 7, Sephirot has 7 wings, where his name and wings are a nod to the Kabbalah, looking to become whole (the missing square in the middle of the tree, called the Da'at). We see in Elden Ring that drakes get treated like outcasts because they only have 2 wings.
The Demi-gods aren't really Marika's children, they're Marika's archetypes. Radagon represents Marika's Male traits (Animus). Farum Azula was Marika's guiding light (Lighthouse of Alexandria, Pharos). Melina is the wise old man archetype (old king or owl in zelda), leading you to the moment when Marika lost her guiding light. She has the knowledge and looks at the current world with regret, wanting to go back to the 'good old days'. She'll keep trying to reset the world, until she finally gets the outcome she desires. She needs your help to reach the goal, but she needs to be the one to burn it down. If you interfere, Marika will never become whole, because somebody else can't make you whole, you have to do that yourself. If you were to force your fix on the world, it will result in her resenting you.
The shattering takes place on a tree stump. That's because an ego-death took place. Resulting in the Ego getting stabbed. Which character represents the ego? Probably the one that's been stabbed with the holy lance, the spear of Longinus. The Erdtree seems to represent the Persona.
We're dealing with somebody who's struggling with the concept of death, which is a traumatic event for them that they simply can't overcome. My read on the whole thing, is survivors guilt, because of that, this world can't achieve wholeness/individuality/Da'at. So, this is why we see so many crafted beings (the original sin in Gnosticism, Sophia trying to create life, aka. The demiurge), they're trying to create a replacement to fill a missing part of themselves. The death of an unborn child.
Tarnished represent determination, maidens represent willpower. Miquella is the divine child, Malenia is the wounded warrior, Ranni is the outcast, Margit is the everyday man, Mohg is the rebel. Godrick is the orphan, Godwyn is the hero. Maliketh is the beast. Red invaders are intrusive thoughts & emotions, blue are suppressed thoughts & emotions. As above, so below. Marika represents the Ego. Land of shadow represents the shadow in the collective unconscious, the lands between represents the collective consciousness. For the god to become whole, and move on from the traumatic event, the quaternity needs to take place... Self (Salt), Ego (Mercury), shadow (Death/Nigredo) and the Animus (Sulfur). Which, will take many more attempts.
I actually believe the story of the empyrean is based on the concept of Thoth, Horus and Khonsu. Empyrean is a concept used by many games, most of the time depicted with a golden and a dusk eye (Horus (sun god) and Khonsu (moon god, that protects travelers and offers healing)).
And, then we have Hermes Trismegistus, which is a combination of the Egyptian god Thoth (moon god of wisdom, writing, and knowledge) and Roman god Hermes (travelers, commerce, communication, boundaries, and trickery).
This is probably where the double Moon (Thoth and Khonsu) concept comes from, and this also ties it all back to Alexandria (the lighthouse of Alexandria, the guiding light), which ties it all back to Hermes Trismegistus. 1 tablet is considered The Emerald Tablet and focuses on the interconnectedness of the microcosm and the macrocosm, how everything comes from the One (confirmed by Ymir), and includes the alchemical formula for turning base materials (like lead) into gold. So, my guess, the second tablet is about the quaternity, and referencing only the new One god (aka. the demiurge/creature) concept. Marika basically tried to erase history and creating a new history to take its place.
"The Temple of Khonsu at Karnak is in a relatively good state of preservation, and on one of the walls is depicted a creation myth in which Khonsu is described as the great snake who fertilizes the Cosmic Egg in the creation of the world". Which, represents the Inner world that's created from Chaos, and ruled by the ignorant fake god... And the ultimate goal is spiritual enlightenment, but that's simply not going to happen in Elden Ring.
Rykards hair is white you can see it in his soldiers helm its white and red for his father
If the first letter of the demigod names comes from the mother, why does Godwyn's name start with G?
And if you argue Godwyn is named after his dad's G, and the Carian R kids are named after Radagon rather than Rennala, who are all these M daddies?
Something is funky.
Godwyn could be the gloam eyed queens child. And the statues of Marika or gloam eyed queens holding child is godwyn.
The seduction and betrayal referred to in dlc trailer is Marika stealing Godfrey from GEQ. Idk.
The first letter of the name is no proof. Regard Mohg and Morgott. Red hair also is no must. Look at Rykard, who most propably did not share the red hair
I think the theory that the fell god is Messmers/Melinas father is interesting
@@kassjazzy that is interesting but lol the mystery would then be why she had kids with the fell god and then got godfrey to murder his worshippers and seal him away.
the M children are cursed and/or born as twins
He did share red hair, you can see that in his portraits in volcano manor.