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One of my favorite parts of new From Software content is just watching the community explode with creativity. My entire algorithm has been taken over my S.o.t.E. lore and I love it.
BRO... The Old Finger-reader Crone under the Two Fingers will wait thousands, if not tens of thousands of years to hear from the Greater Will (through the Fingers). = The Old Crucible Crone under the Divine Beast (which are a symbol of Two, like the Fingers) have waited tens of thousands of years for the Crucible God to answer her prayers through the Divine Beast. There might be more parallels between the Crucible and the Greater Will than we initially thought 👀
Oh, and I think Enia’s initial dialogue somewhat mirror’s the Grandam’s in the Dancing Lion cutscene; only, while Enia (on behalf of the GW) instructs the player to slaughter Marika’s children, the Grandam pleas for the Dancing Lion to do the same!
Hey dude! Great video as always! BTW, I wanted to point out a nice little environmental detail to you. If you look on the ground in both the Divine Lion Dancing Beast arena and the area where you fight Radahn/Miquella, you'll see a design that seems to echo that civilization's perception of the Crucible. It's an intertwining spiral, along with the colors of red, gold and black. In the spaces between the spirals is a flower. The flower is one representation of the Crucible, as we know from the DLC's newest Aspect of the Crucible incantation. The black contrasted with the red/gold represent the blending of opposites within the Crucible, in a quasi-alchemical way. The black represents the prima materia, which is the beginning of the alchemical process, while red/gold represent the end (red = philosopher's stone, gold = other primary goal of the alchemists).
The GOAT appears! Loved your video about Messmer and the Abyssal Serpent, and an awesome catch on that environmental detail! Can’t wait to see more of what you’re cooking!
Now that you mention it, those 3 colours are also prominent with Marika's children that she conceived with Godfrey. Godwyn's Deathblight, mostly the mist is black with tinges of gold. Morgott is loyal to the Golden Order but has one attack with his blade that uses his cursed blood. Gold with tinges of red, so to speak. And finally Mohg's Bloodboon Ritual is mostly red with black tinges. Interesting to note is that the latter two are Omen twins and who's to say that Godwyn, even if he was the one who introduced the Dragon Cult, didn't pick up some of the incantations of Godfrey's loyal Crucible Knights? It would certainly be to Marika's chagrin, that even with her golden child, she couldn't escape the imagery of the Hornsent/Crucible completely.
Thanks as always for checking out the content Max! Your support means the world. Yeh I really like that observation - good chance the bud is indeed just another interpretation of the Crucible!
@@averidodson8453 hmm that could be interesting but who would be the puppet master? We know from the dlc that there were likely more than just seluvis and pidia, since jolan and anna are puppet spirit ashes
There has been a lot of speculation around the Marika section of the Story Trailer, some people think it’s a snake skin like the one outside Bonny Village, others think it’s the body of the Gloam Eyed Queen, but I’ve got a different theory. If you look closely at the trim, there appears to be buttonholes running up the edges, so that makes me think it could be the garb of a Hornsent of significant importance (due to its proximity to the divine gate) Now what could Marika be pulling out? I think it’s physical, tangible Grace, Grace of the crucible. As we know the crucible’s grace was a bronze colour, not to mention the spells used by Hornsent Inquisitors are golden. So my thinking is that Marika is harvesting Grace to present to the Divine Gate as an offering and the roar we hear reminds me of the sound the Elden Beast makes in its Cutscene. Just a theory I haven’t really seen anywhere but I take with a ginormous pinch of salt as one missed item description could totally upend this theory. Great Video as always Smough!
The item descriptions of the Crucible Knight sets explicitly state that "the crucible of life is the primordial form of the Erdtree". In multiple interviews Miyazaki explained how the Erdtree represents the rules of the world and we even witness how its appearance changes based on which greater rune we use to mend the Elden Ring. The Gilded Greatshield item description tells us that "the red tinge in the gold coat mirrors the primordial matter that became the Erdtree". All crucible knights' armors also have a red tinge. We know that Marika created the Golden Order by removing the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring (Enia's dialogue and Mending Rune of the Death-Prince item description). The Rune of Death has a red tinge and a black core. The Black Flame of the Godskins, which is black and white, is what's left of their original incantations after the Rune of Death is sealed within Maliketh. Seems pretty clear to me that the Crucible isn't just an abstract concept, but the physical manifestation of the Elden Ring in the form of the Erdtree before Marika manipulated it. The removal of the Rune of Death stripped it of its red tinge and left it pure gold, giving rise to the Golden Order.
@@Mare_Man The Lands Between may well have been an empty parking lot before the landing of the Elden Ring. Too many of the first civilizations have the Elden Ring as their symbol.
Metyr was the first shooting star to fall in the Lands Between, prior even to the Elden Ring, Glintstone, Alabaster Lords, Astel etc, i think that prior to Metyr there were the Ancient Dragons, probably the Giants and the beasts (before they gained intelligence, granted by the Greater Will)
Explains Melinas Black hair in the frenzied flame ending. The Rune likely was hers or tied to her than unsealed. It's strange she survives but Torrent doesn't despite both Being spirits. Also her golden eye is burnt out since the erdtree is dead and the purple one is unsealed.
A crazy thing I realized is the hornsents god did come back in a way radahn is a lion he's also horned from using mohgs body and his helm has horns. The thing I wanna know is was it planned that way?
It’s entirely possible, perhaps by Miquilla himself maybe. As he did promise his Hornsent that he would right the wrongs that Marika inflicted on his people. And he does clearly have some pity for the Hornsent.
I don’t think Radahn was the Hornsent’s “plan” per se. Rather, I think that which Radahn and Mohg symbolises (purebread warrior who only seeks an unending battle; Lion Motif of the Hornsent; blood and horns of the Hornsent; Redmane of Giants; etc.) was much more important to them. We know Martin-san loves a good ol Prophecy in his stories. It’s very plausible the Hornsent foresaw the coming of a prophetic deity emerge from the Crucible of the Divine Gates. One with Horns, lion imagery, desire for the crucible of war (I.e. unending battles invigorating the souls), Redmane of the original Crucible-coded colours (giants), command over the Fate (Radahn’s fate-searing abilities), etc. Henceforth, motivating them to sacrifice their own bodies, in hopes of turning them into stone, creating a spiralling tower of their bodies reaching into the heavens, so that they can fulfil their vision. Radahn would ultimately become their prophetic Lord. His name isn’t important to the Hornsent, rather what he symbolises is much more important to them
There's definitely somthing to it. I mean radahns lion motifs and the horns growing from him idk I think I could be reading too much into it but then again it's a fromsoft game so your kinda supposed to read deep into stuff like this.
Has anyone noticed before that the Elden Stars incantation is a giant glowing double helix at 11:24? I always kinda thought it was like a shooting star but look at it closely!
A lot of miracles/incantations in the Souls series and Elden Ring have helices of light as a part of their design, I think this might be reading too much into things.
When you cast the incantation, it looks a lot like the depictions of the solar system as it's moving through the Milky Way. A single star orbiting the target with smaller bodies orbiting it until they peel off and crash into the target
I think it's more likely that Hyetta's dialogue describes the literal dawn of time - Elden Ring's equivalent of the big bang - prior to which no meaningful way of measuring or describing anything existed. The three fingers philosophy is that existence itself as we know and experience it was a mistake from the very moment it began, because existence implies some amount of suffering. This would have taken place long before there was an Elden Beast or a Lands Between for it to fall upon. This also seems to be corroborated by Count Ymir's description of how the world came into existence. As for the crucible stuff, I think people take it far too literally. I don't imagine there was ever a literal object or tree known as The Crucible, but rather that it's just a more general nature worship philosophy that venerates the origin of life at some nebulous point in the distant past, interpreted by various different cultures over the course of history in some different ways and some similar ways, each building off their predecessors in one way or another, much like with real world philosophies. The Hornsent may just be the Roman equivalent to Elden John's Dynasty's ancient greece equivalent, or something similar. The Hornsent probably all have horns because their culture values horns and so they self-select for that trait in the same way the Golden Order culture select against that trait.
That doesn’t really explain why the fauna develops horns without any selective breeding. It does seem more like it’s a pervasive force that changes life.
Great read, I agree. This implies, to me at least, that the Greater Will is and always has been a remote "god" which simply created by dividing the One Great. The Greater Will has never interacted with its creation beyond the first division, it seems. The Crucible itself seems to be a stand-in for a myriad of pagan beliefs while the Erdtree tracks more with the rise of Christianity and monotheism.
Yup, unbelievably real about the crucible part. Given how Metyr's whole quest is about how she's lost contact with the Greater Will and the Golden Order was built entirely on false premises and From's love of cycles, i imagine the order of the hornsent and crucible imposed power and image in a similar way.
@@JayWhipp1e It's explicitly stated that the crucible is the origin of _all_ life. This would include the erdtree. Hell, you could even argue that the FF ending returns everything back to the beginning of the crucible.
You may have kept me employed. Lotta incoming deadlines and my ADD has been rough lately. You make the perfect kind of content for keeping it at bag while I work: even voice, talking clearly and at a normal speed, breaking things down, and especially building off of your own ideas in order so I don't get lost when I'm not paying perfect attention. Thank you so much.
Im sorry to hear that things have been rough at work. Thank you for the kind words re the content and I am really pleased that it helps you through the shift. Hope work goes well today and gets better soon!
I think you forgot about Ymir's dialogue telling us the universe basically began with some sort of big bang " great rupture far across the skies" and that people are themselves made of stardust, just like in our real world, and hence all are children of the greater will. So the current candidate for the "one great" is definitely the state of the universe/matter/existence before this rupture happened and it's far more likely theory than any other, so it should be definitely mentioned in the video.
The "one great" in the big bang allegory is likely akin to the eras of our universe right after the big bang where it was homogeneously filled with very high energy density and huge temperatures and pressures, energy being so abundant that matter couldn't even form. I've always thought of the Frenzied Flame ending as an allegory for the heat death of the universe, where everything returns to this "one great" state of homogeny
@@PyrrhusBrin yeah, I feel he’s too “lost in the sauce” so to speak. Similar to Sellen, both of them have genius level intellect and intuition, but that intellect and intuition is driven by the desire to become something greater, more inhumane than they already are. Kinda like how Lusat and Ażur were able to transcend human conditions into the cosmos, making their Ambitions “lunacy” or “genius” - depending on who you ask
one thing i thought of that i havent seen anyone else mention is the idea that the hornsent may have manually built the gate of divinity. considering how they were seemingly obsessed with the prospect of divinity (per the curseblade armor, the revered spirit ash, and the multitude of mummified monks in belurat) and the wanton cruelty leveled at the shamans (using the pots purely for capital punishment doesnt make sense to me). it all makes me think they may not have had a single god at all, but were in the process of making one, similarly to the nox but Marika managed to swoop in and steal it some how (the gold braid mentions the grandmother, so marika may have learned about the gate from grandam)
I agree to a point I think they may have tried contacting the serpent god we see a serpentine corpse in the sote opener when Marika pulls the golden threads lots of scale spiral motifs in enir elim but what gets me is in rykards fight he mention devouring the gods at first I thought the demi gods but I think now he really meant the other outer gods perhaps the hornsent had a similar goal to blend and meld life in the ultimate fashion by melding the outer gods back into one being
@@staffordsartthere is mention that the foul serpent was reviled in ancient times. It's very possible it was a traitor to the dragon kind or the hornsent. Perhaps it was the betrayal of the serpent God that shaped their culture into the callous intolerance it had later?
@@johnj.spurgin7037 very possible I still think the hornsent were trying to contact the serpent they were obsessed with melding life and animalistic divinities the serpent wanting to devour the other outer gods feel plausible perhaps the betrayal is of marikas to the serpent god hence why there enemies of the erd tree perhaps that's why the hornsent refer to her as seducer and betrayer she seduced the serpent and betrayed the hornsent in the process
Fantastic video as always. I’d like to also point out that the bloodfiends were also likely demi-humans before their transformation, not hornsent. There are a few reasons for this, but two short correlations are they drop string, which are ONLY dropped by Demi-humans in game. They roar before attacking, and both can have red eyes. And they can be baited by alluring pots mid combat, just like the Demi-humans. Which are the *only* other enemy that can be lured in this fashion.
The Lamenters scream "Hellraiser reference" at me. Their horns have grown to pierce their eyes, inflicting a state of bliss borne out of exquisite pain. Lamenter is a reference to the Lament Configuration.
I just finished the video about Messmer, and now Hornsent dropped. What a timing! Is there a connection between Hornsent and ancient Rauh? Can't wait to find out
Rauh most likely was the early Night and Flame alliance of the Giants and Astrologers. Spirit manipulation, huge doors so giants can pass through, golems that include fire and spirit magic. There’s an entire video about it
The rauh help inspire the hornsent admiration for spirite and spirits, you have items like fire spritestone and spritestone craftable items that come from hornsent scholars studying rauh ruins. This likely pushed them to know more about summoning spirits and sprites and that's how they ended up mixing this knowledge with similar practices(Dancer's of Ranah, Dancer's Dress and Blue Dancer Charm) and the end result was a dancing lion.
i actually think the theory of marika being a successful creation of the jars holds some merit. why would there be statues of her everywhere and why would her actions be labeled a „betrayal“, if they hadn’t revered her prior? i absolutely love this theory and it also explains why marika can blend with radagon or shed him from herself. she is an amalgam of other beings
And her offspring are sometimes mashups: misbegotten, Omens, even the Giants seem to have gotten mixed in there somehow. Maybe she absorbs characteristics through the Erdtree. That might help explain why she ostracized deviants from the Erdtree and attempted to wipe them out. The tattoo on the jar Shaman’s forehead is the Elden Ring, but with the edges cropped.
So they chopped up heretics, what if they whipped her and by coincidence got all the parts of different worshippers from every outer God not just the divine will. That also might explain why members of her family like Mohg is the lord of blood and why Melania was cursed with scarlet rot. She has parts of her from every god. She was a success. Presented to the king as a holy bride. She killed him to take power. Used Mesmir to kill the people who tortured her and her people and established the golden order. Only through her off spring were the other gods able to communicate and manipulate events.
So they chopped up heretics, what if they whipped her and by coincidence got all the parts of different worshippers from every outer God not just the divine will. That also might explain why members of her family like Mohg is the lord of blood and why Melania was cursed with scarlet rot. She has parts of her from every god. She was a success. Presented to the king as a holy bride. She killed him to take power. Used Mesmir to kill the people who tortured her and her people and established the golden order. Only through her off spring were the other gods able to communicate and manipulate events.
So they chopped up heretics, what if they whipped her and by coincidence got all the parts of different worshippers from every outer God not just the divine will. That also might explain why members of her family like Mohg is the lord of blood and why Melania was cursed with scarlet rot. She has parts of her from every god. She was a success. Presented to the king as a holy bride. She killed him to take power. Used Mesmir to kill the people who tortured her and her people and established the golden order. Only through her off spring were the other gods able to communicate and manipulate events.
So they chopped up heretics, what if they whipped her and by coincidence got all the parts of different worshippers from every outer God not just the divine will. That also might explain why members of her family like Mohg is the lord of blood and why Melania was cursed with scarlet rot. She has parts of her from every god. She was a success. Presented to the king as a holy bride. She killed him to take power. Used Mesmir to kill the people who tortured her and her people and established the golden order. Only through her off spring were the other gods able to communicate and manipulate events.
When you talked about how dancing was a form of communication with the divine, it made me think of The Blind Warrior. Its movements are like a dance, and it was taught by a fairy/sprite. We also learn that being blinded is a certain boon (Lamentor's Mask) and could have even enhanced his "communion" with an outer god.
54:00 I remember people looking up the japanese version of this one and discovering the more accurate translation being something like "Good Person" instead of "Saint". Which makes it sound more like this was the hornsent's twisted idea of some form of redemption rather than anything like ascension.
Honestly Spiral Power from Gurren Lagann is a decent analogue for the power of The Crucible. The symbolism of the DNA double helix, at its core its the power of Evolution, which can make mortals evolve until they reach and surpass the gods The Hornsent were building A DRILL TO PIERCE THE HEAVENS THE WHOLE TIME!
It’s so interesting to me that the hornsent civilization seemed to have a much closer relationship to the outer gods then marika’s order. Seemingly utilizing the outer god of the death birds for their funerals, possibly having a religion or the remnants of a religion worshiping the scarlet rot, the Bloodfiends seeing the mother of truth when they prayed to their normal hornsent divinity. When the hornsent talk about divinity they seem to often use terms like “the realm of the gods” usually plural instead of singular. It seems possible to me that they didn’t really see a distinction between the outer gods and the “true” divinity of the greater will or whatever you want to call it.
4:14 heads up. I know you had the script and voice already done before it, but they patched it to say Hornsent Grandam. Empyrean grandam is gone, likely leftover from earlier storylines that no longer apply
@@SmoughTown when are you gonna do a Metyr video ? My headcanon is that Metyr was wounded by the nox with their fingerslayer blade and she started birthing three fingers and finger creepers so GW left her
Amazing, as always! Three thoughts to consider: 1) the Church of the Bud probably was instead dedicated to the plant aspects of the Crucible, like the Crucible Bloom. It's implied in Romina's rememberence that she imparted rot into these buds - corrupting them with the essence of the outer god that, as stated in the bud description, wasn't there before. Her motivation was probably preservation against fire, and revenge, since her plants were particularly weak to fire. Her church was probably the primary base from which the Hornsent excavated the ruins. 2) It's implied that the sacred bloody flesh is normal meat that's soaked in the formless mother's blood. The meat isn't the special part, just the blood. Tiny detail! 3) I think that the jar folk in the Lands Between were not made there, but rather escaped the shadowland gaols or were released when their melding into a novel person (as opposed to a screaming amalgm) was completed. Clearly they do more than deliver the dead to minor erdtrees, since we also see them living lives in Raya Lucaria, hanging around Stormveil, and even camping out the Caria Manor cliffsides. I am more inclined to interpret that Marika tried to free many jar folk (even making their poaching illegal), letting them live independent lives as warriors or simple villagers, because her experiments to separate them failed. Alexander and Jar Bairn have no intent of rejoining the Erdtree's roots, instead living lives as warriors for their own sake. And I think this is what Marika had to come to terms with - she couldn't undo what happened to her people, and the next best thing is to give the newly born jar folk (who only seem to remember fleeting glimpses of their former lives - see Jar Bairn's misinterpreting of what a "potentate" is) new lives and freedom to go where they pleased. I like to think that the jars in Raya Lucaria are trying to become sorcerers, but it explains why we find them absolutely everywhere.
This is pure speculation, but given how similar Graven Masses seem to the Jar process in Bonnie Village, one could even speculate that Marika's territorial aggression against Caria and Raya Lucaria might have something to do with her wanting to stamp out what might very well have looked to her like a repeat of the horrors of the Hornsent.
I like many of your points. However, I think you're wrong about the jars in the lands between: they all have a different seal on their cap, so I think that basically guarantees they were made separately. The original jars all over the Shadowlands have a seal of tangled horns on their top. All of the jars in the Lands Between have an Erdtree seal on their top. And since the seal is wax, certainly placed there after the jar is full to keep the insides sealed, I think it's clear they were made separately.
I think there is definitely something to that. Apart from the clear similarity of the clumped mass, there is another aspect: the hornsent have the spiral, "a normalized Crucible current". The graven masses are created by sorcerers following the "primeval current".
We have no evidence that Marika was even involved in the attempts to fix the jars in shadow keep. The impression i got was that it was done by messmer in an attempt to reconnect, with him not knowing she would never love him
@@bajscast No definitive evidence, but we do know that Marika returned to her old village when she was already a god, and probably did so during Messmer's crusade and before she sealed away the Shadowlands. It's fairly likely she at least visited during Messmer's crusades, and this may be the most likely time she made her one revisit to her old village before sealing it off with her keep. The presence of tree sentinels also verifies that she returned during her days leading the Erdtree empire.
I really love how you specifically reference which item descriptions you get info from. Keep these videos coming please! I’ve fallen in love with this game all over again…
Will say that the ProfOrProf video on "What is the Scadutree??" does show off in environmental storytelling that the Hornsent are not the original builders of the tower. How all the horn and lion imagery are made of crumbling stone decoration despite the unmovable parts of the tower looking newer and pristine. He even showed how the Divine gates are made of 2 layers of hornless bodies bonded with shimenawa rope and making upside-down towers like in Nokstellia, while the only Hornsent corpses cover the boss arena floor and are reaching out towards the gate as if wanting to be a part of it but were all rejected (though alternatively, the gate bodies could have lost thier omen horns like when you defeat Morgot).
*Hornsent Grandam, iirc the item that referred to an Empyrean Grandam got changed recently (haven't double checked that so take it with a grain of salt)
Something neat to do with spirals: Every object in our universe spins at some regular rate, and some angle (until acted upon) and if you map the travel of our solar system through space with galactic spin, it leaves behind a spiral pattern.
@@emilyminnow no lol, in order to be a planet your gravity must clear your orbital path. That's why they took Pluto off. There's lots of stuff in it's orbit
Here's my thesis: I think Miyazaki is being extremely literal here. The Shamans represent a hunter-gatherer-like, pre-agricultural, pre-pastorial society. The hornset are akin to pastorial societies (animal husbandry) who tend to be more aggressive due to wealth disparities over the accumilation of say cattle, and the need for tribes with less cattle to raid for their neighbor's cattle. These societies hold their flocks and herds to high regard, hence the symbolisms found in Hindu cow reverence and the Abrahamic sheep (good-shepard) reverence. With the Abrahamics in particular, Cain and Abel can be taken as a agriculturalist vs pastorialist morality tale, with the preference being bent towards pastorialism. You could also make this observation with all the animal hybrids popular in Greek lore; the hornsent love horns after all. In other words: all of the above lores are telling simular stories about the dawn of pastorialism compared to the other ways of socital organization. So the transitions of the Orders in Elden Ring from one society to the next is a fantasy version of these occurances. Now you might say: pastorial societies are known for their Shamanistic-elements (think Mongols and Plain-Indians), why would they be h-g? See Shamans appear to be integrated and precursing hornsent customs, not apart. They are LIKE hunter-gatherers in that they appear to have been largely peaceful before the hornsent took root. Their village on the outskirts of hornsent lands are integrated. Maybe the hornsent broke-off to hold the Crucible in higher regards over the Shaman's desire for natural balance (which h-g societies were for millions of years) - I do believe that there are African tribes who have such demarkation, where a special village among them is set aside for the weird-ways Now. All that is to say: Marika's Order IS symbolic of all that results from agriculture, just as the developments in it follow our real world. The hornsent, in their Crucible-God-Pot creations are literally trying to manifest agriculture as the next step in the Greater Will - they dont know they're doing it, just as Schopenhauer's Will is blind too.
I understand why Marika did what she did but still, I can’t bring myself behind most, if not all, her actions. It is all one awful cycle of misery and hate, of victims making more victims. I guarantee you that the Hornsent civilization is not a monolith and had many who were unaware or did not approve of some of their more grotesque practices such as a Greater Potentate from Bonny Village who was disgusted by the jarring practices that he made cookbooks for jarring items that specifically excluded using living beings from the process. There were also those who were subjected to their own brethren’s brand of cruelty if found guilty such as the Hornsent spirits in Midra's manse who begged their fellow Hornsent Inquisitors to spare them and ask what their master Midra was guilty of.
One thing I’d like to also note about the buds potentially being an allowed worship by the Hornsent; buds typically are formed with the petals wrapped in a spiral. Specifically, the buds we see in the DLC haven’t bloomed, and are all still in a tight spiraling form, So maybe that is what adds some significance? 58:42
One small detail that wasn't discussed are the description of the inquisitor ashes: "Inquisitions often perplexed the minds of the uninitiated, and so seniority was viewed as an asset." I think this implies that the Inquisition was very secretive and the common people of the hornsent did not know about their more extreme practices, like the jarring, for instance. It's something to mention as people discuss whether Marika's wholesale slaughter of the Hornsent was "justified" or not.
I have a couple thoughts/questions on this video. 1)Why do we assume the greater cosmology is tied so intimately with the lands between? I speak specifically of the one great/division/crucible. Especially considering the source of the information is a very biased being. The One Great being divided sounds like a general creation myth for all of reality not just the lands between. This gains even more weight from the fact that so many deities come from elsewhere and seem to have existed before the history of the lands between. Even the hornsent seem to think of the crucible as some nebulous 'other' that can be accessed but does not exist specifically in the Lands Between. It is in sharp contrast to local 'Gods' like Marika/Miquella. 2)Why do we presume the hornsent developed their worship of the crucible at the beginning of their culture? You point to Belerat and Imir-Alim but both of these represent endgame expressions of their culture. It was not a loving god among them that validates their beliefs and caused this cultural growth. They undertook these great works to validate their beliefs at their completion. The causality is reversed from the way it sounded in your video. Similarly it feels as if the name and concept as Hornsent might be a later self-appelation. From Farum Azula we see beastmen, but not the horn proliferation in the Shadowlands versions. Serosh is worlds apart from the Dancing Lion. Consider the hornsent as simply a race of primitive humans at first. They saw the mighty birds and sought to emulate them. The bird warriors note the crucible feathers are a wholy borrowed thing, not an outgrowth of an existing mutation possessed by the tribe. At a later point the tribe is visited by the blessing/curse of the horns.(And other wildlife in this area as well)This requires explanation, especially when children are born so 'blessed' by horns that they die young. The explanation is one of divinity. From the horn grows the concept of the spiral, which is the perfect 'controlled' horn. (Uncontrolled horn growth being deadly and crippling) similarly the borrowing of the power of the birds, awareness of beastmen, et al naturally develops into a concept of pan-creature melting pot. This isn't to say a repository of power didn't exist before, just that there is no reason to believe that the hornsent are perfectly describing a real entity when their own descriptions are more akin to the broad monotheistic ideas of God than more concrete 'pagan' version of Gods we see (the golden bird etc) So this religion develops to explain the world around them, trappings are developed to promote it (Jar sacrifice) things that run counter to it are suppressed. As the religion gains power it understakes ever more complex self-sustaining works culminating in Imir-Alim. If we are going by mythological trappings this feels like their 'Tower of Babel' and considering the sacrifices, and the fact that Marika, doom of the hornsent ascended through the gate, it might be the metaphor intended. We have exactly zero indication that the hornsent ever had a 'God' from among them. With what we have a scenario where Marika kills a Hornsent Heirophant on the eve of their ascension and ascends herself in his/her place would fit in neatly.
Romina has a Shaman like humanoid at the center of the mass, is called a saint, and can act as vessel for an Outer God. I think she's a lesser success of the jarring process that would later produce Marika. Romina had a position of religious authority within the Hornsent society when Messmer showed up which means successful saint jar experiments were given a religious status in Hornsent society. This explains the concept of Marika's "betrayal". You have to be part of society or organization to betray it and Marika was likely considered a holy saint in Hornsent society before the Two Fingers offered Marika revenge.
Something I've thought about my self, not sure who would have made up the other parts of Marika though. Gloam eyed Queen and a big snake? Maybe a dragon? The elden beast?
I can't tell you how much I appreciate your in depth lore videos Smough. I can focus completely on what you're saying and zone out from work. Makes days like this go by so much quicker 😄 Thank you!
The elements of the Horsent warriors used are Lightning, Frost, and Storm I observed that Commader Naill in that after defeating his Banished Knights Spirite will Fight the Tarnished in the same Elements that the Hirsent warriors used.
Pretty fascinating that the Shamen were once a persecuted people under the Hornsent. I can't help but wonder how much the persecution of Marika's people played into her motivation to first seek godhood and later the crusade against the Hornsent.
Maybe a weird thought, but I think it's good that you're lore videos are more like "lore suggestions". I feel like your format allows for more speculation (and thus discussion) than, say, Vaati's videos. Now, I love his style too, but I enjoy this just as much. Keep it up! Love your videos!
Actually I'd like to add a little bit on to the whole "spiral-shaped pattern" and the connection to Placidusax. When we first find him, rather than simply having his two remaining heads point to the sky like the two fingers, they're in a bit of a loose spiral pattern. Perhaps this could be added onto this lore stuff?
I think the "One Great" is a state in which everything was originally joined together, with the "Greater Will" being the sentient nature of the One Great. That's why it would be normal to refer to them as one in the same, like Hyetta does. Pre-seperation, it's the "One Great," but post-seperation, it's the "Greater Will," because now that everything has separated from it, it can no longer be called the One Great. This might also be why it can't directly meddle with the Lands Between, because it's only the will that remains. The crucible is hard to visualize, but I think it's referring to the same concept as the One Great. If all life was originally joined together, it would have been before the One Great split into diverse life. What the "crucible" is referring to, is the fact that life all shared a single source, and can thus sprout horns, wings, and other features that are indicative of their shared roots. I don't think the crucible is a real thing, it's a metaphorical crucible of life, like a primordial ooze. Conversely, I think the frenzy ending is the exact same thing as what the term "crucible" refers to. All life being re-joined back into a single melting pot. But obviously, the Greater Will split apart with the intent of life being diverse, and created the Elden Ring as a mechanism for that life to govern itself. So that's why the flame of frenzy is treated as the ultimate evil, not because it's inherently a bad thing, but because it's the antithesis to what the Greater Will wanted in the first place.
The name Ornis is probably a shoutout to the field of ornithology, the study of birds. Little fun fact i just thought about after you talked about the bird warriors, and the bird warrior ashes.
12:20 watching the podcast was great because its awesome to see how the understanding of the lore of Elden Ring can evolve (no pun intended) off of people bouncing ideas off of each other
Really love these as they compile everything from the game which is really needed as some stuff didn’t make since great video as always have a nice day Smough
Thank you so much for the insanely hard work and research it took to make this vid. Video game lore nerds really make such a huge difference in their communities and you are no exception.
What if Marika is ripping the golden thread from Serosh's right eye? The horsent venerated lions and have statues of lions and the dancing beast looks like a lion. Serosh was the Lord of Beasts. Marika betrayed Serosh and bonded him to Godfrey. To elimenate another thread tying her to godhood she banished Godfrey and the tarnished. If you look closer at the body that she pulls the threads from you can see an eye and and eyebrow. What do you think? 1:17:25
Boutta drive around listening to this all day at work tomorrow but for now it’s bed time. God bless you Smough! You have exponentially increased the enjoyment and fulfillment I get from playing Elden Ring and I’m so grateful for that
It’s crazy how power drives all societies in the worlds lore through time so heavily, and the story of Midra is crazy. He was probably my favorite boss fight and area in the dlc other than Bayle. Great work man, every video is better and better! Thanks again for deciphering the complexity of the lore so palatably!
I do want to point out the thoery that the Bloodfiends were once Demi-Humans, or are at least related to them. Similar to the Hornsent during the Crusade Demi-Humans have always been treated as lesser, making them easy targets for the Formless Mother, but this theory stands on the similarities between both races. They both have hierarchies with a chief at the top, drop the string item (which was until now exclusive to DH), get baited out by the White Shadow's Lure Ash of War and share a similar fighting pattern (roaming in groups and roaring when threatened). I also wanted to point out the possibility of another connection between the Hornsent and an Outer God via the Dancing Lion at Rauh. This one has the peculiar ability to invoke deathblight as if it were another aspect of a storm like wind, lightning and hail. I do believe DB to be an inherent part of the Outer God of Death due to the Deathbirds being able to "cast it" via their screeches, something this Divine Beast imitates with its roars, managing to summon Basilisks. Perhaps this could just be explained via the old reliable 'all manners of death drift into the Lands of Shadow' deal and this Dancing Lion got somehow corrupted but I do think it fits with how desperate the Hornsent were during and after their massacre, relying on otherwise heterodox means to survive. Stellar video as usual!
I'm a bit surprised that the Giants aren't mentioned in this, considering that they are said to have gotten the Horns first. The "Talisman of all Crucibles", which item desc. reads: _A giant mass of intermingling Crucible attributes. Reduces damage taken from critical hits and head shots and improves the effectiveness of rolling and backstepping, but also increases damage taken at all times. _*_Rumored to have sprouted upon giants and is known as the "mother of Crucibles" in ancient tower lore._* Not to mention, as Ziostorm pointed out in their video ( th-cam.com/video/x9zKRcgO67U/w-d-xo.html ), the Lamenter form has both red hair and a giant face on its back, similar to how red hair is said to be a trait of the Giants, with them having red hair, and having a face on their chests. Combine that with the Furnace Golems and their visages - both the appearance and description* of the collectable ones, and the appearance of the ones on their hips - and now this, this all further paints the picture that the Giants, the Omens, the Fell God and the Crucible are all related somehow. *Description reads as: _A smaller imitation of the furnace golem's visage. Material used for crafting items. Exceedingly rare to find. A stone mask surrounded by curled horns, depicting the fell god of fire that haunts the sagas of the hornsent._ Makes you wonder how Radagon connects to this all...and what's with the black flames and projectiles of the Lamenter? Plus the invisibility and misery and "bliss"? Hmmm, some connection to Destined Death, but without the power of the Rune... but how, and why? I suppose Omens do have a connection to DD through their ability to see evil spirits that haunt their nightmares, and their ability to call upon wraiths. Plus the sky in the Dung Eater's Age of Despair ending is very similar to the sky in Godwyn's dream. Hmmm...
Yeah I'm surprised the giants weren't mentioned, it goes to show that the omen genetic trait is totally random and can appear on any natural lifeform, even the animals in the lands of shadow have extra horns
The giants were not made by the fell god. Heck it's mentioned that they merely "borrowed" its power and were cursed to be its keepers. My theory is that they were primordial beings of the crucible that rose some time around the ancient dragons and were subjugated by them into being the flame's keepers.
@@alfalldoot6715 It's also interesting to note that the Fell God is described as "malformed" and "corrupt", suggesting a possible change into the evil god we know today. Especially when combined with people's recent theories on the Fell God once being the Sun and maybe having two eyes.
Another great video from you, Smough. I do disagree with the Crucible jot having a physical form, though, as many items associated with the Crucible are only farmable in Rauh. The first hornsent warriors were also from Rauh, so if the Crucible ever had a physical manifestation, it was most likely there. I also think you might have missed something with the Curseblades. I might be mistaken, but I believe I remember that some of the items from the Curseblade set and weapons mention that they are those who specifically failed to become tutelary deities. The Hornsent likely approved of their practice, but for whatever reason, harshly punished those who failed with imprisonment.
I'm in support of the jars being genuine attempts to create a saint and that Marika was the only successful one. There is a note somewhere that says they die and "hopefully" are reborn as a saint, so Marika wouldn't have known of the process and would have been part of the Hornsent's civilization for a time. Then, at some point she found out, and so came "the betrayal." I think she went along with their plans of elevating their new saint to godhood only to turn their back on them after the process was complete.
It's interesting how similar the Barbed Staff-spear from the Inquisitors and Siluria's Tree spear are. The Inquisitor's spear is almost like a more refined, more delicate version of the tree spear
I think much like AotA, Hunter's nightmare, ash's of Ariendel, and ringed city, the Shadow of the Erdtree depicts a hellscspe. Messmer is the Satan Figure, the Furnace golems and Knights are demonic forces punishing the damned. It is specifically mentioned that all manner of death ends up in the shadow lands I think the reason they view the crucible as a spiral is because of the gales of wind. When the wind picks up it creates a circular spiral pattern.
Can we trust Hyetta's words considering that they come from the Three Fingers and therefore Metyr. We know that Metyr never reconnected with The Greater Will.
@@kaleeddy5227They don't actually all come from Metyr since Ymir has birthed some of his own. The Three Fingers are summoned by chants of despair not by Metyr.
Can’t wait to hear your thoughts on Metyr and the revelations of the fingers from the DLC. Imo it seems peering into the primeval current allowed sorcerers to learn the knowledge of the cosmos, and with that they understood that the Greater Will was gone, never to return. At least that’s the theory I’ve formed now. Perhaps that’s why Ranni’s quest line seems to tie the story of the Lands Between up neatly, whereas the other endings (minus the frenzy) allow the cycle to continue b/c even the fingers can’t reach their god. I’m curious your thoughts on how Metyr and her lore tie into the base game. Solid vid tho otherwise!!
About the different conceptions of the crucible: If the Greattree is the previous conduit of the crucible and it was chopped or burned down, it would make sense that the crucible warriors associate the crucible with a new tree sprouting from a stump. Maybe the greattree was the spiral tree? Could kind of look like the Scadutree and Erdtree were once the spiral greattree, and Marika’s order literally straightened out one over the other - promoting life over death, which probably wasn’t celebrated to the same extent before her. I have an unrelated (crazy) theory. I just noticed that Marika is wearing an armband when she becomes a god in the trailer, which I have heard signifies marriage (in the current era she has one on each arm representing two marriages). Unfortunately we cant see if she is wearing one on both arms (if she was, that would rule out the marriage theory) but she is wearing one, meaning she married Godfrey before she became a god. So, the theory is this: Could Serosh be the Divine Beast Marika takes the runes from? It would make some sense to punish the god by this imprisonment while still taking advantage of its experience as lord. Also, there is this finger rule about beasts and shadows, so maybe they somehow invoked this rule to force Serosh to comply? The fact that he doesn’t have horns is a point against, but we have seen that horns can come and go from Morgott. But that could also be propaganda. Another point against, is that he is specifically described as having been a lord, so maybe he was the consort of the hornsent god at some point, maybe not even in the era of the hornsent - I don’t have a counter for this. Also, he is described as having golden fur and he guides the golden lineage. Equally interesting is that this is pretty much all we know about him, as if his previous role as lord is diminished or even obfuscated in the eyes of the people.
When you were talking about Elden stars, I couldn't help but wonder where metyr fit into the story. The Elden beast wasn't the first thing sent by the greater will, so when did metyr land, and when did marika start following the guidance of the fingers?
Was rewatching the Messmer video and hoping for this to come out sooner than later and then I open your channel and there we go, 23 mins ago! Been looking forward to this one as the crucible and hornsent are very interesting
I don't know if I quite agree with the idea that Marika killed the hornsent god. From the story trailer, we can see that the bodies are fresh, glistening as if they were just killed, including those stacked up to create the divine gate. This reads to me as the act intending to reach the gods, which fits well with the spiral tower being seen as divine. But I think the tower was an active attempt to reach the gods, that upon its completion was usurped. This also fits pretty well with the myth of the Tower of Babel -- the name of the tower even came from an Akkadian name, "Bab-ilim" --the use of Enir-Ilim seems unlikely to be a coincidence here. Like, it's still possible that she killed their god to ascend, but to me it looks more like the Hornsent created this tower and the gate to reach the gods, and Marika took advantage of its existence to pass through it and become god herself.
For everyone saying they check every day for a new smoughtown video, don’t forget about the notification button. He’s one of the few I actually have notifications on so I’m not checking every day like some fiend lmao
@@SmoughTownyou got my back with the lore, I got your back with the shoutouts. I literally went into the DLC with my Rotten Crucible Knight build because the crucible is one of my favorite subjects, so when I got the notification I came as soon as I could lmao.
Something ive never heard anyone mention is that tornados are spirals too, so it absolutely makes sense that the hornsent make use of the storms. And that would also connect Farum Azula to the crucible, as theres a giant ass spiral in the center of it.
Thanks to Factor75 for sponsoring today's video. Use my link to get 50% off your first Factor box and 20% off your next month of orders! strms.net/factor75_se6165437
Thanks!
Thank you! I was starting to miss your vids 🫡
Maybe Romina was silent as the church burned because she was praying to the bud, the rot god.
Empyearen Grandama was changed to Hornsent Grandame
Don't forget the Sealing tower which points out how the land of shadow used to be the CENTER of the lands between
One of my favorite parts of new From Software content is just watching the community explode with creativity. My entire algorithm has been taken over my S.o.t.E. lore and I love it.
Same here fellow tarnished
@@Vinny_The_Fox foul tarnished, smouldering with thy meager flame...
@@brandonsnyder9950 someone must extinguish thy flame, let it be Margit The Fell
Same ha
@@Vinny_The_Fox *Mongrel intruder*
BRO...
The Old Finger-reader Crone under the Two Fingers will wait thousands, if not tens of thousands of years to hear from the Greater Will (through the Fingers).
=
The Old Crucible Crone under the Divine Beast (which are a symbol of Two, like the Fingers) have waited tens of thousands of years for the Crucible God to answer her prayers through the Divine Beast.
There might be more parallels between the Crucible and the Greater Will than we initially thought 👀
Oh, and I think Enia’s initial dialogue somewhat mirror’s the Grandam’s in the Dancing Lion cutscene; only, while Enia (on behalf of the GW) instructs the player to slaughter Marika’s children, the Grandam pleas for the Dancing Lion to do the same!
Mad respect for still warning about spoilers, I cant believe I saw almost 10 thumbnails with the name of the last boss day 2 after release...
No problem at all - defo should be common practice in the lore community!
I can’t believe they haven’t invented an option to block out spoilers from youtube and social media, with such advanced algorithms :(
Hey dude! Great video as always! BTW, I wanted to point out a nice little environmental detail to you. If you look on the ground in both the Divine Lion Dancing Beast arena and the area where you fight Radahn/Miquella, you'll see a design that seems to echo that civilization's perception of the Crucible. It's an intertwining spiral, along with the colors of red, gold and black. In the spaces between the spirals is a flower.
The flower is one representation of the Crucible, as we know from the DLC's newest Aspect of the Crucible incantation. The black contrasted with the red/gold represent the blending of opposites within the Crucible, in a quasi-alchemical way. The black represents the prima materia, which is the beginning of the alchemical process, while red/gold represent the end (red = philosopher's stone, gold = other primary goal of the alchemists).
The GOAT appears! Loved your video about Messmer and the Abyssal Serpent, and an awesome catch on that environmental detail!
Can’t wait to see more of what you’re cooking!
Now that you mention it, those 3 colours are also prominent with Marika's children that she conceived with Godfrey.
Godwyn's Deathblight, mostly the mist is black with tinges of gold. Morgott is loyal to the Golden Order but has one attack with his blade that uses his cursed blood. Gold with tinges of red, so to speak. And finally Mohg's Bloodboon Ritual is mostly red with black tinges.
Interesting to note is that the latter two are Omen twins and who's to say that Godwyn, even if he was the one who introduced the Dragon Cult, didn't pick up some of the incantations of Godfrey's loyal Crucible Knights? It would certainly be to Marika's chagrin, that even with her golden child, she couldn't escape the imagery of the Hornsent/Crucible completely.
Max + smoughtown == Lore filius philosophorum
Thanks as always for checking out the content Max! Your support means the world.
Yeh I really like that observation - good chance the bud is indeed just another interpretation of the Crucible!
@@SmoughTownpossible connection to Romina, Saint of the Bud?
Its a crime we dont have a crucible knight spirit ashes
OMG you are right
TRUTH
@@nathangeorge6575 momm can we have crucible knight ashes??
Mom: we have crucible knight ashes at home (black knight captain hew)
I think it would be a puppet instead of a spirit ash
@@averidodson8453 hmm that could be interesting but who would be the puppet master? We know from the dlc that there were likely more than just seluvis and pidia, since jolan and anna are puppet spirit ashes
There has been a lot of speculation around the Marika section of the Story Trailer, some people think it’s a snake skin like the one outside Bonny Village, others think it’s the body of the Gloam Eyed Queen, but I’ve got a different theory.
If you look closely at the trim, there appears to be buttonholes running up the edges, so that makes me think it could be the garb of a Hornsent of significant importance (due to its proximity to the divine gate)
Now what could Marika be pulling out? I think it’s physical, tangible Grace, Grace of the crucible. As we know the crucible’s grace was a bronze colour, not to mention the spells used by Hornsent Inquisitors are golden.
So my thinking is that Marika is harvesting Grace to present to the Divine Gate as an offering and the roar we hear reminds me of the sound the Elden Beast makes in its Cutscene.
Just a theory I haven’t really seen anywhere but I take with a ginormous pinch of salt as one missed item description could totally upend this theory.
Great Video as always Smough!
I don't think there are any item descriptions that describe that event so this is as good of a theory as any other 😉.
The item descriptions of the Crucible Knight sets explicitly state that "the crucible of life is the primordial form of the Erdtree".
In multiple interviews Miyazaki explained how the Erdtree represents the rules of the world and we even witness how its appearance changes based on which greater rune we use to mend the Elden Ring.
The Gilded Greatshield item description tells us that "the red tinge in the gold coat mirrors the primordial matter that became the Erdtree". All crucible knights' armors also have a red tinge.
We know that Marika created the Golden Order by removing the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring (Enia's dialogue and Mending Rune of the Death-Prince item description).
The Rune of Death has a red tinge and a black core. The Black Flame of the Godskins, which is black and white, is what's left of their original incantations after the Rune of Death is sealed within Maliketh.
Seems pretty clear to me that the Crucible isn't just an abstract concept, but the physical manifestation of the Elden Ring in the form of the Erdtree before Marika manipulated it. The removal of the Rune of Death stripped it of its red tinge and left it pure gold, giving rise to the Golden Order.
The Elden Ring wasn't in the Lands Between until the Greater Will sent it as the Elden Beast
@@Mare_Man That's correct. What about it?
@@Mare_Man The Lands Between may well have been an empty parking lot before the landing of the Elden Ring. Too many of the first civilizations have the Elden Ring as their symbol.
Metyr was the first shooting star to fall in the Lands Between, prior even to the Elden Ring, Glintstone, Alabaster Lords, Astel etc, i think that prior to Metyr there were the Ancient Dragons, probably the Giants and the beasts (before they gained intelligence, granted by the Greater Will)
Explains Melinas Black hair in the frenzied flame ending. The Rune likely was hers or tied to her than unsealed. It's strange she survives but Torrent doesn't despite both Being spirits. Also her golden eye is burnt out since the erdtree is dead and the purple one is unsealed.
I didn’t need to go to work anyway
Hahah - you could watch at work!
Guilty....I'm at work watching 😂
@@SmoughTownthats usually what i do lol
@@SmoughTown i'm watching at work right now
Well I don't have work today
A crazy thing I realized is the hornsents god did come back in a way radahn is a lion he's also horned from using mohgs body and his helm has horns. The thing I wanna know is was it planned that way?
It’s entirely possible, perhaps by Miquilla himself maybe. As he did promise his Hornsent that he would right the wrongs that Marika inflicted on his people. And he does clearly have some pity for the Hornsent.
I don’t think Radahn was the Hornsent’s “plan” per se. Rather, I think that which Radahn and Mohg symbolises (purebread warrior who only seeks an unending battle; Lion Motif of the Hornsent; blood and horns of the Hornsent; Redmane of Giants; etc.) was much more important to them.
We know Martin-san loves a good ol Prophecy in his stories. It’s very plausible the Hornsent foresaw the coming of a prophetic deity emerge from the Crucible of the Divine Gates. One with Horns, lion imagery, desire for the crucible of war (I.e. unending battles invigorating the souls), Redmane of the original Crucible-coded colours (giants), command over the Fate (Radahn’s fate-searing abilities), etc. Henceforth, motivating them to sacrifice their own bodies, in hopes of turning them into stone, creating a spiralling tower of their bodies reaching into the heavens, so that they can fulfil their vision. Radahn would ultimately become their prophetic Lord. His name isn’t important to the Hornsent, rather what he symbolises is much more important to them
There's definitely somthing to it. I mean radahns lion motifs and the horns growing from him idk I think I could be reading too much into it but then again it's a fromsoft game so your kinda supposed to read deep into stuff like this.
@@HeevaEgo did you just call George R. R. Martin "martin-san"? That's a level of weed I've not seen before.
I don't think it was planned but prophesies have interesting ways of becoming true
Has anyone noticed before that the Elden Stars incantation is a giant glowing double helix at 11:24? I always kinda thought it was like a shooting star but look at it closely!
A lot of miracles/incantations in the Souls series and Elden Ring have helices of light as a part of their design, I think this might be reading too much into things.
Several of the heal incantations also cause a spiral effect when used.
When you cast the incantation, it looks a lot like the depictions of the solar system as it's moving through the Milky Way. A single star orbiting the target with smaller bodies orbiting it until they peel off and crash into the target
I think it's more likely that Hyetta's dialogue describes the literal dawn of time - Elden Ring's equivalent of the big bang - prior to which no meaningful way of measuring or describing anything existed. The three fingers philosophy is that existence itself as we know and experience it was a mistake from the very moment it began, because existence implies some amount of suffering. This would have taken place long before there was an Elden Beast or a Lands Between for it to fall upon. This also seems to be corroborated by Count Ymir's description of how the world came into existence.
As for the crucible stuff, I think people take it far too literally. I don't imagine there was ever a literal object or tree known as The Crucible, but rather that it's just a more general nature worship philosophy that venerates the origin of life at some nebulous point in the distant past, interpreted by various different cultures over the course of history in some different ways and some similar ways, each building off their predecessors in one way or another, much like with real world philosophies. The Hornsent may just be the Roman equivalent to Elden John's Dynasty's ancient greece equivalent, or something similar. The Hornsent probably all have horns because their culture values horns and so they self-select for that trait in the same way the Golden Order culture select against that trait.
That doesn’t really explain why the fauna develops horns without any selective breeding. It does seem more like it’s a pervasive force that changes life.
Great read, I agree. This implies, to me at least, that the Greater Will is and always has been a remote "god" which simply created by dividing the One Great. The Greater Will has never interacted with its creation beyond the first division, it seems. The Crucible itself seems to be a stand-in for a myriad of pagan beliefs while the Erdtree tracks more with the rise of Christianity and monotheism.
Yup, unbelievably real about the crucible part. Given how Metyr's whole quest is about how she's lost contact with the Greater Will and the Golden Order was built entirely on false premises and From's love of cycles, i imagine the order of the hornsent and crucible imposed power and image in a similar way.
I'd agree except it's stated in item descriptions that the crucible is the Primordial form of the erdtree. That's pretty explicit.
@@JayWhipp1e It's explicitly stated that the crucible is the origin of _all_ life. This would include the erdtree. Hell, you could even argue that the FF ending returns everything back to the beginning of the crucible.
In the latest patch Emperyan grandam was changed to hornsent grandam. Likely fixed a mistake.
Yeh defo makes sense - thankfully I dont address the Empyrean element in this video as I saw Lokey pointing this out a few weeks ago
But it's weird because the Japanese translation is literally empyrean if I remember correctly so idk why they changed that...
@@shirokun002 they changed Japanese as well.
It's not a mistake. Everyone just thought she was Empyrean herself instead of being a caretaker of Empyreans. So they had to change it.
@@AsadAli-tt6vwthey wouldn’t bother to change it if it wasn’t an obvious mistake. She has nothing to do with Emperyans.
You may have kept me employed. Lotta incoming deadlines and my ADD has been rough lately. You make the perfect kind of content for keeping it at bag while I work: even voice, talking clearly and at a normal speed, breaking things down, and especially building off of your own ideas in order so I don't get lost when I'm not paying perfect attention. Thank you so much.
Im sorry to hear that things have been rough at work. Thank you for the kind words re the content and I am really pleased that it helps you through the shift. Hope work goes well today and gets better soon!
@@SmoughTown Thank you for the kind words! I powered through in part thanks to your videos. You're the best ^_^
I think you forgot about Ymir's dialogue telling us the universe basically began with some sort of big bang " great rupture far across the skies" and that people are themselves made of stardust, just like in our real world, and hence all are children of the greater will. So the current candidate for the "one great" is definitely the state of the universe/matter/existence before this rupture happened and it's far more likely theory than any other, so it should be definitely mentioned in the video.
The "one great" in the big bang allegory is likely akin to the eras of our universe right after the big bang where it was homogeneously filled with very high energy density and huge temperatures and pressures, energy being so abundant that matter couldn't even form. I've always thought of the Frenzied Flame ending as an allegory for the heat death of the universe, where everything returns to this "one great" state of homogeny
Ymir isn't exactly a reliable source though.
@@PyrrhusBrin People can lie and/or be wrong, even characters in media.
@@PyrrhusBrin yeah, I feel he’s too “lost in the sauce” so to speak. Similar to Sellen, both of them have genius level intellect and intuition, but that intellect and intuition is driven by the desire to become something greater, more inhumane than they already are. Kinda like how Lusat and Ażur were able to transcend human conditions into the cosmos, making their Ambitions “lunacy” or “genius” - depending on who you ask
It's GOD but the elden ring version. No need to think too much
one thing i thought of that i havent seen anyone else mention is the idea that the hornsent may have manually built the gate of divinity. considering how they were seemingly obsessed with the prospect of divinity (per the curseblade armor, the revered spirit ash, and the multitude of mummified monks in belurat) and the wanton cruelty leveled at the shamans (using the pots purely for capital punishment doesnt make sense to me). it all makes me think they may not have had a single god at all, but were in the process of making one, similarly to the nox but Marika managed to swoop in and steal it some how (the gold braid mentions the grandmother, so marika may have learned about the gate from grandam)
I agree to a point I think they may have tried contacting the serpent god we see a serpentine corpse in the sote opener when Marika pulls the golden threads lots of scale spiral motifs in enir elim but what gets me is in rykards fight he mention devouring the gods at first I thought the demi gods but I think now he really meant the other outer gods perhaps the hornsent had a similar goal to blend and meld life in the ultimate fashion by melding the outer gods back into one being
@@staffordsartthere is mention that the foul serpent was reviled in ancient times. It's very possible it was a traitor to the dragon kind or the hornsent.
Perhaps it was the betrayal of the serpent God that shaped their culture into the callous intolerance it had later?
@@johnj.spurgin7037 very possible I still think the hornsent were trying to contact the serpent they were obsessed with melding life and animalistic divinities the serpent wanting to devour the other outer gods feel plausible perhaps the betrayal is of marikas to the serpent god hence why there enemies of the erd tree perhaps that's why the hornsent refer to her as seducer and betrayer she seduced the serpent and betrayed the hornsent in the process
Fantastic video as always. I’d like to also point out that the bloodfiends were also likely demi-humans before their transformation, not hornsent. There are a few reasons for this, but two short correlations are they drop string, which are ONLY dropped by Demi-humans in game. They roar before attacking, and both can have red eyes. And they can be baited by alluring pots mid combat, just like the Demi-humans. Which are the *only* other enemy that can be lured in this fashion.
Yes! Time to draw and listen to THE BEST Elden Ring lore.
Oh awesome! So humbled to be part of your process
The Lamenters scream "Hellraiser reference" at me. Their horns have grown to pierce their eyes, inflicting a state of bliss borne out of exquisite pain. Lamenter is a reference to the Lament Configuration.
your suffering will be legendary, even in hell...
That thumbnail is sick. What an art piece
Unreal eh
I just finished the video about Messmer, and now Hornsent dropped.
What a timing!
Is there a connection between Hornsent and ancient Rauh? Can't wait to find out
haha I must have known! Please enjoy
wouldn't be surprised if rauh was conquered by the hornsent and had their deity (divine bird) repurposed. Another cycle
@@jstar3382 I wonder if it's the same bird as the one depicted in that one sheild we find in altos. The twin bird kite shield or something.
Rauh most likely was the early Night and Flame alliance of the Giants and Astrologers. Spirit manipulation, huge doors so giants can pass through, golems that include fire and spirit magic. There’s an entire video about it
The rauh help inspire the hornsent admiration for spirite and spirits, you have items like fire spritestone and spritestone craftable items that come from hornsent scholars studying rauh ruins. This likely pushed them to know more about summoning spirits and sprites and that's how they ended up mixing this knowledge with similar practices(Dancer's of Ranah, Dancer's Dress and Blue Dancer Charm) and the end result was a dancing lion.
Yesssss I've been looking forward to you covering this. Their lore was my favorite part of the DLC
One of my fave parts too - so glad I was finally able to cover it
i actually think the theory of marika being a successful creation of the jars holds some merit. why would there be statues of her everywhere and why would her actions be labeled a „betrayal“, if they hadn’t revered her prior? i absolutely love this theory and it also explains why marika can blend with radagon or shed him from herself. she is an amalgam of other beings
And her offspring are sometimes mashups: misbegotten, Omens, even the Giants seem to have gotten mixed in there somehow.
Maybe she absorbs characteristics through the Erdtree. That might help explain why she ostracized deviants from the Erdtree and attempted to wipe them out.
The tattoo on the jar Shaman’s forehead is the Elden Ring, but with the edges cropped.
So they chopped up heretics, what if they whipped her and by coincidence got all the parts of different worshippers from every outer God not just the divine will. That also might explain why members of her family like Mohg is the lord of blood and why Melania was cursed with scarlet rot. She has parts of her from every god. She was a success. Presented to the king as a holy bride. She killed him to take power. Used Mesmir to kill the people who tortured her and her people and established the golden order. Only through her off spring were the other gods able to communicate and manipulate events.
So they chopped up heretics, what if they whipped her and by coincidence got all the parts of different worshippers from every outer God not just the divine will. That also might explain why members of her family like Mohg is the lord of blood and why Melania was cursed with scarlet rot. She has parts of her from every god. She was a success. Presented to the king as a holy bride. She killed him to take power. Used Mesmir to kill the people who tortured her and her people and established the golden order. Only through her off spring were the other gods able to communicate and manipulate events.
So they chopped up heretics, what if they whipped her and by coincidence got all the parts of different worshippers from every outer God not just the divine will. That also might explain why members of her family like Mohg is the lord of blood and why Melania was cursed with scarlet rot. She has parts of her from every god. She was a success. Presented to the king as a holy bride. She killed him to take power. Used Mesmir to kill the people who tortured her and her people and established the golden order. Only through her off spring were the other gods able to communicate and manipulate events.
So they chopped up heretics, what if they whipped her and by coincidence got all the parts of different worshippers from every outer God not just the divine will. That also might explain why members of her family like Mohg is the lord of blood and why Melania was cursed with scarlet rot. She has parts of her from every god. She was a success. Presented to the king as a holy bride. She killed him to take power. Used Mesmir to kill the people who tortured her and her people and established the golden order. Only through her off spring were the other gods able to communicate and manipulate events.
I really like how every party in fromsoft lore is two-dimensional, and it's not just a generic good or evil party
Yeh really good at nuanced characters
Rykard: "I will eat the world! Devouring everything to be part of me!"
Kaathe, Seath, Sulyvahn, Aldrich, Rykard, Mohg
Shabriri: "Bro I LOVE killing people!"
Yeah they're mostly all evil and the good ones are good for evil reasons.
When you talked about how dancing was a form of communication with the divine, it made me think of The Blind Warrior. Its movements are like a dance, and it was taught by a fairy/sprite.
We also learn that being blinded is a certain boon (Lamentor's Mask) and could have even enhanced his "communion" with an outer god.
Been checking YT daily for an upload from you. Thank you!!! Now to try to resist watching this until I'm off work....
hahah thanks my friend and I hope work goes well!
@@SmoughTown Thank you! I'll be finishing up these spreadsheets at work so I can watch your video and add to my ER Lore spreadsheet at home 😅
@@aureldumont Hahaha amazing
same. I check every day.
@@sunnybwaj Appreciate that so much - thank you
54:00 I remember people looking up the japanese version of this one and discovering the more accurate translation being something like "Good Person" instead of "Saint". Which makes it sound more like this was the hornsent's twisted idea of some form of redemption rather than anything like ascension.
Honestly Spiral Power from Gurren Lagann is a decent analogue for the power of The Crucible. The symbolism of the DNA double helix, at its core its the power of Evolution, which can make mortals evolve until they reach and surpass the gods
The Hornsent were building A DRILL TO PIERCE THE HEAVENS THE WHOLE TIME!
It’s so interesting to me that the hornsent civilization seemed to have a much closer relationship to the outer gods then marika’s order. Seemingly utilizing the outer god of the death birds for their funerals, possibly having a religion or the remnants of a religion worshiping the scarlet rot, the Bloodfiends seeing the mother of truth when they prayed to their normal hornsent divinity. When the hornsent talk about divinity they seem to often use terms like “the realm of the gods” usually plural instead of singular. It seems possible to me that they didn’t really see a distinction between the outer gods and the “true” divinity of the greater will or whatever you want to call it.
4:14 heads up. I know you had the script and voice already done before it, but they patched it to say Hornsent Grandam. Empyrean grandam is gone, likely leftover from earlier storylines that no longer apply
Yeh cheers for this - thankfully I didnt speculate on how relevant the title 'Empyrean' is
@@SmoughTownyeah i remember seeing a lot of speculation on her title that got wiped out. Maybe a miscommunication between the localization team?
@@jstar3382 Yeh quite likely - it never felt right having her relating to Empyrean somehow
@@jstar3382someone on reddit actually showed the Japanese characters used for her title and it honestly just looked like a typo or something.
@@SmoughTown when are you gonna do a Metyr video ?
My headcanon is that Metyr was wounded by the nox with their fingerslayer blade and she started birthing three fingers and finger creepers so GW left her
Amazing, as always! Three thoughts to consider:
1) the Church of the Bud probably was instead dedicated to the plant aspects of the Crucible, like the Crucible Bloom. It's implied in Romina's rememberence that she imparted rot into these buds - corrupting them with the essence of the outer god that, as stated in the bud description, wasn't there before. Her motivation was probably preservation against fire, and revenge, since her plants were particularly weak to fire. Her church was probably the primary base from which the Hornsent excavated the ruins.
2) It's implied that the sacred bloody flesh is normal meat that's soaked in the formless mother's blood. The meat isn't the special part, just the blood. Tiny detail!
3) I think that the jar folk in the Lands Between were not made there, but rather escaped the shadowland gaols or were released when their melding into a novel person (as opposed to a screaming amalgm) was completed. Clearly they do more than deliver the dead to minor erdtrees, since we also see them living lives in Raya Lucaria, hanging around Stormveil, and even camping out the Caria Manor cliffsides. I am more inclined to interpret that Marika tried to free many jar folk (even making their poaching illegal), letting them live independent lives as warriors or simple villagers, because her experiments to separate them failed. Alexander and Jar Bairn have no intent of rejoining the Erdtree's roots, instead living lives as warriors for their own sake. And I think this is what Marika had to come to terms with - she couldn't undo what happened to her people, and the next best thing is to give the newly born jar folk (who only seem to remember fleeting glimpses of their former lives - see Jar Bairn's misinterpreting of what a "potentate" is) new lives and freedom to go where they pleased. I like to think that the jars in Raya Lucaria are trying to become sorcerers, but it explains why we find them absolutely everywhere.
This is pure speculation, but given how similar Graven Masses seem to the Jar process in Bonnie Village, one could even speculate that Marika's territorial aggression against Caria and Raya Lucaria might have something to do with her wanting to stamp out what might very well have looked to her like a repeat of the horrors of the Hornsent.
I like many of your points.
However, I think you're wrong about the jars in the lands between: they all have a different seal on their cap, so I think that basically guarantees they were made separately. The original jars all over the Shadowlands have a seal of tangled horns on their top. All of the jars in the Lands Between have an Erdtree seal on their top. And since the seal is wax, certainly placed there after the jar is full to keep the insides sealed, I think it's clear they were made separately.
I think there is definitely something to that. Apart from the clear similarity of the clumped mass, there is another aspect: the hornsent have the spiral, "a normalized Crucible current". The graven masses are created by sorcerers following the "primeval current".
We have no evidence that Marika was even involved in the attempts to fix the jars in shadow keep. The impression i got was that it was done by messmer in an attempt to reconnect, with him not knowing she would never love him
@@bajscast No definitive evidence, but we do know that Marika returned to her old village when she was already a god, and probably did so during Messmer's crusade and before she sealed away the Shadowlands. It's fairly likely she at least visited during Messmer's crusades, and this may be the most likely time she made her one revisit to her old village before sealing it off with her keep. The presence of tree sentinels also verifies that she returned during her days leading the Erdtree empire.
I really love how you specifically reference which item descriptions you get info from. Keep these videos coming please! I’ve fallen in love with this game all over again…
Will say that the ProfOrProf video on "What is the Scadutree??" does show off in environmental storytelling that the Hornsent are not the original builders of the tower. How all the horn and lion imagery are made of crumbling stone decoration despite the unmovable parts of the tower looking newer and pristine. He even showed how the Divine gates are made of 2 layers of hornless bodies bonded with shimenawa rope and making upside-down towers like in Nokstellia, while the only Hornsent corpses cover the boss arena floor and are reaching out towards the gate as if wanting to be a part of it but were all rejected (though alternatively, the gate bodies could have lost thier omen horns like when you defeat Morgot).
*Hornsent Grandam, iirc the item that referred to an Empyrean Grandam got changed recently (haven't double checked that so take it with a grain of salt)
Something neat to do with spirals: Every object in our universe spins at some regular rate, and some angle (until acted upon) and if you map the travel of our solar system through space with galactic spin, it leaves behind a spiral pattern.
Kind of, the solar system is almost flat with the galactic plane
@@DeathWatchChampion I'm convinced they took out Pluto because it's orbit is so whacky
@@emilyminnow no lol, in order to be a planet your gravity must clear your orbital path. That's why they took Pluto off. There's lots of stuff in it's orbit
@@DeathWatchChampion thanks for the lesson
YES! This was the part of the dlc lore I was most excited about ever since I 1st started playing the dlc and reading about the asetics
100% was the part I was most interested in!
Smough, as a fellow Scotsman I have to ask, why must you remind us that our week of summer has failed to materialise ?
I'm sorry I just look at what I see and I say it
This summer was one of the worst so far and I ain’t even that far north I don’t think there was a single day of sun 😭
HE'S BACK! Love you dude, thank you so much for the shoutout, INCREDIBLE video as always!!
Thanks so much dude! Thanks for making that awesome discovery
Worth noting the 'empyrean' grandam is no longer called that, as it was deliberately patched out. She's now just hornsent grandam.
Here's my thesis:
I think Miyazaki is being extremely literal here.
The Shamans represent a hunter-gatherer-like, pre-agricultural, pre-pastorial society.
The hornset are akin to pastorial societies (animal husbandry) who tend to be more aggressive due to wealth disparities over the accumilation of say cattle, and the need for tribes with less cattle to raid for their neighbor's cattle. These societies hold their flocks and herds to high regard, hence the symbolisms found in Hindu cow reverence and the Abrahamic sheep (good-shepard) reverence. With the Abrahamics in particular, Cain and Abel can be taken as a agriculturalist vs pastorialist morality tale, with the preference being bent towards pastorialism. You could also make this observation with all the animal hybrids popular in Greek lore; the hornsent love horns after all. In other words: all of the above lores are telling simular stories about the dawn of pastorialism compared to the other ways of socital organization. So the transitions of the Orders in Elden Ring from one society to the next is a fantasy version of these occurances.
Now you might say: pastorial societies are known for their Shamanistic-elements (think Mongols and Plain-Indians), why would they be h-g? See Shamans appear to be integrated and precursing hornsent customs, not apart. They are LIKE hunter-gatherers in that they appear to have been largely peaceful before the hornsent took root. Their village on the outskirts of hornsent lands are integrated. Maybe the hornsent broke-off to hold the Crucible in higher regards over the Shaman's desire for natural balance (which h-g societies were for millions of years) - I do believe that there are African tribes who have such demarkation, where a special village among them is set aside for the weird-ways
Now. All that is to say: Marika's Order IS symbolic of all that results from agriculture, just as the developments in it follow our real world. The hornsent, in their Crucible-God-Pot creations are literally trying to manifest agriculture as the next step in the Greater Will - they dont know they're doing it, just as Schopenhauer's Will is blind too.
I understand why Marika did what she did but still, I can’t bring myself behind most, if not all, her actions. It is all one awful cycle of misery and hate, of victims making more victims.
I guarantee you that the Hornsent civilization is not a monolith and had many who were unaware or did not approve of some of their more grotesque practices such as a Greater Potentate from Bonny Village who was disgusted by the jarring practices that he made cookbooks for jarring items that specifically excluded using living beings from the process. There were also those who were subjected to their own brethren’s brand of cruelty if found guilty such as the Hornsent spirits in Midra's manse who begged their fellow Hornsent Inquisitors to spare them and ask what their master Midra was guilty of.
The definitive soulsborne lore expert is back.
Far too kind - hope you enjoy this one
@SmoughTown I definetly will.
Agreed. This channel and Tarnished Archaeologist are my 2 favorites.
@@nigeltownley7472 and Zuelli the Witch for little tidbits
@@cyrus6461 of course, love the model analyses!
One thing I’d like to also note about the buds potentially being an allowed worship by the Hornsent; buds typically are formed with the petals wrapped in a spiral. Specifically, the buds we see in the DLC haven’t bloomed, and are all still in a tight spiraling form, So maybe that is what adds some significance? 58:42
One small detail that wasn't discussed are the description of the inquisitor ashes: "Inquisitions often perplexed the minds of the uninitiated, and so seniority was viewed as an asset." I think this implies that the Inquisition was very secretive and the common people of the hornsent did not know about their more extreme practices, like the jarring, for instance. It's something to mention as people discuss whether Marika's wholesale slaughter of the Hornsent was "justified" or not.
I have a couple thoughts/questions on this video.
1)Why do we assume the greater cosmology is tied so intimately with the lands between? I speak specifically of the one great/division/crucible. Especially considering the source of the information is a very biased being. The One Great being divided sounds like a general creation myth for all of reality not just the lands between. This gains even more weight from the fact that so many deities come from elsewhere and seem to have existed before the history of the lands between. Even the hornsent seem to think of the crucible as some nebulous 'other' that can be accessed but does not exist specifically in the Lands Between. It is in sharp contrast to local 'Gods' like Marika/Miquella.
2)Why do we presume the hornsent developed their worship of the crucible at the beginning of their culture? You point to Belerat and Imir-Alim but both of these represent endgame expressions of their culture. It was not a loving god among them that validates their beliefs and caused this cultural growth. They undertook these great works to validate their beliefs at their completion. The causality is reversed from the way it sounded in your video.
Similarly it feels as if the name and concept as Hornsent might be a later self-appelation. From Farum Azula we see beastmen, but not the horn proliferation in the Shadowlands versions. Serosh is worlds apart from the Dancing Lion.
Consider the hornsent as simply a race of primitive humans at first. They saw the mighty birds and sought to emulate them. The bird warriors note the crucible feathers are a wholy borrowed thing, not an outgrowth of an existing mutation possessed by the tribe. At a later point the tribe is visited by the blessing/curse of the horns.(And other wildlife in this area as well)This requires explanation, especially when children are born so 'blessed' by horns that they die young.
The explanation is one of divinity. From the horn grows the concept of the spiral, which is the perfect 'controlled' horn. (Uncontrolled horn growth being deadly and crippling) similarly the borrowing of the power of the birds, awareness of beastmen, et al naturally develops into a concept of pan-creature melting pot. This isn't to say a repository of power didn't exist before, just that there is no reason to believe that the hornsent are perfectly describing a real entity when their own descriptions are more akin to the broad monotheistic ideas of God than more concrete 'pagan' version of Gods we see (the golden bird etc)
So this religion develops to explain the world around them, trappings are developed to promote it (Jar sacrifice) things that run counter to it are suppressed. As the religion gains power it understakes ever more complex self-sustaining works culminating in Imir-Alim.
If we are going by mythological trappings this feels like their 'Tower of Babel' and considering the sacrifices, and the fact that Marika, doom of the hornsent ascended through the gate, it might be the metaphor intended.
We have exactly zero indication that the hornsent ever had a 'God' from among them. With what we have a scenario where Marika kills a Hornsent Heirophant on the eve of their ascension and ascends herself in his/her place would fit in neatly.
Romina has a Shaman like humanoid at the center of the mass, is called a saint, and can act as vessel for an Outer God. I think she's a lesser success of the jarring process that would later produce Marika. Romina had a position of religious authority within the Hornsent society when Messmer showed up which means successful saint jar experiments were given a religious status in Hornsent society. This explains the concept of Marika's "betrayal". You have to be part of society or organization to betray it and Marika was likely considered a holy saint in Hornsent society before the Two Fingers offered Marika revenge.
Something I've thought about my self, not sure who would have made up the other parts of Marika though. Gloam eyed Queen and a big snake? Maybe a dragon? The elden beast?
I can't tell you how much I appreciate your in depth lore videos Smough. I can focus completely on what you're saying and zone out from work. Makes days like this go by so much quicker 😄 Thank you!
Means the world to me my friend! So pleased you enjoyed the content!
Soooo excited for this one!! You never disappoint Smough!
Too kind my friend! Thanks for being here and hope you enjoy
The elements of the Horsent warriors used are Lightning, Frost, and Storm
I observed that Commader Naill in that after defeating his Banished Knights Spirite will Fight the Tarnished in the same Elements that the Hirsent warriors used.
Pretty fascinating that the Shamen were once a persecuted people under the Hornsent. I can't help but wonder how much the persecution of Marika's people played into her motivation to first seek godhood and later the crusade against the Hornsent.
Maybe a weird thought, but I think it's good that you're lore videos are more like "lore suggestions".
I feel like your format allows for more speculation (and thus discussion) than, say, Vaati's videos. Now, I love his style too, but I enjoy this just as much.
Keep it up! Love your videos!
Thanks bud, appreciate that
And tbh, my opinions change too frequently anyway for me to say they are anything but 'theories' haha.
Actually I'd like to add a little bit on to the whole "spiral-shaped pattern" and the connection to Placidusax. When we first find him, rather than simply having his two remaining heads point to the sky like the two fingers, they're in a bit of a loose spiral pattern. Perhaps this could be added onto this lore stuff?
I really love this video, it answers many questions in larg detail, even if it's just an interpetation, it's one that is very well put.
I think the "One Great" is a state in which everything was originally joined together, with the "Greater Will" being the sentient nature of the One Great.
That's why it would be normal to refer to them as one in the same, like Hyetta does. Pre-seperation, it's the "One Great," but post-seperation, it's the "Greater Will," because now that everything has separated from it, it can no longer be called the One Great. This might also be why it can't directly meddle with the Lands Between, because it's only the will that remains.
The crucible is hard to visualize, but I think it's referring to the same concept as the One Great. If all life was originally joined together, it would have been before the One Great split into diverse life. What the "crucible" is referring to, is the fact that life all shared a single source, and can thus sprout horns, wings, and other features that are indicative of their shared roots. I don't think the crucible is a real thing, it's a metaphorical crucible of life, like a primordial ooze.
Conversely, I think the frenzy ending is the exact same thing as what the term "crucible" refers to. All life being re-joined back into a single melting pot. But obviously, the Greater Will split apart with the intent of life being diverse, and created the Elden Ring as a mechanism for that life to govern itself. So that's why the flame of frenzy is treated as the ultimate evil, not because it's inherently a bad thing, but because it's the antithesis to what the Greater Will wanted in the first place.
The name Ornis is probably a shoutout to the field of ornithology, the study of birds. Little fun fact i just thought about after you talked about the bird warriors, and the bird warrior ashes.
12:20 watching the podcast was great because its awesome to see how the understanding of the lore of Elden Ring can evolve (no pun intended) off of people bouncing ideas off of each other
Really love these as they compile everything from the game which is really needed as some stuff didn’t make since great video as always have a nice day Smough
You too my friend - thanks for being here and supporting me
@@SmoughTownyou’re welcome
one of the few channels that I fully watch the ad read, thanks for another video
That means the world to me - so glad you are here
@@SmoughTown glad to be here mate
Just finished work. Perfect timing. Cheers Smough!
My pleasure! Hope work was good and hope you enjoy the video!
My weekend is now sorted. Thanks as always for the amazing lore content!
My pleasure and I hope you enjoy
Thank you so much for the insanely hard work and research it took to make this vid. Video game lore nerds really make such a huge difference in their communities and you are no exception.
My pleasure - so pleased you enjoy the content and I really appreciate the kind words!
We out here boys been waiting for more LORE
Excellent video as always. Very few people I can listen to talk about lore for over an hour but be completely engaged the entire time.
Dark greetings and thank you laddie, for what I expect to be another absolute belter of a lore video 📯
Hahah greetings to you as well my friend! Hope you enjoy
Can’t wait to listen to this at work, I really enjoy your work because the effort you put in to it always shines through
What if Marika is ripping the golden thread from Serosh's right eye? The horsent venerated lions and have statues of lions and the dancing beast looks like a lion. Serosh was the Lord of Beasts. Marika betrayed Serosh and bonded him to Godfrey. To elimenate another thread tying her to godhood she banished Godfrey and the tarnished. If you look closer at the body that she pulls the threads from you can see an eye and and eyebrow. What do you think? 1:17:25
Boutta drive around listening to this all day at work tomorrow but for now it’s bed time. God bless you Smough! You have exponentially increased the enjoyment and fulfillment I get from playing Elden Ring and I’m so grateful for that
ive been waiting for this! thanks so much for your work
My pleasure and sorry it took longer than usual.
@@SmoughTown you could videos once a year and it would still be worth the wait :)
It’s crazy how power drives all societies in the worlds lore through time so heavily, and the story of Midra is crazy. He was probably my favorite boss fight and area in the dlc other than Bayle. Great work man, every video is better and better! Thanks again for deciphering the complexity of the lore so palatably!
I do want to point out the thoery that the Bloodfiends were once Demi-Humans, or are at least related to them. Similar to the Hornsent during the Crusade Demi-Humans have always been treated as lesser, making them easy targets for the Formless Mother, but this theory stands on the similarities between both races. They both have hierarchies with a chief at the top, drop the string item (which was until now exclusive to DH), get baited out by the White Shadow's Lure Ash of War and share a similar fighting pattern (roaming in groups and roaring when threatened).
I also wanted to point out the possibility of another connection between the Hornsent and an Outer God via the Dancing Lion at Rauh. This one has the peculiar ability to invoke deathblight as if it were another aspect of a storm like wind, lightning and hail. I do believe DB to be an inherent part of the Outer God of Death due to the Deathbirds being able to "cast it" via their screeches, something this Divine Beast imitates with its roars, managing to summon Basilisks. Perhaps this could just be explained via the old reliable 'all manners of death drift into the Lands of Shadow' deal and this Dancing Lion got somehow corrupted but I do think it fits with how desperate the Hornsent were during and after their massacre, relying on otherwise heterodox means to survive.
Stellar video as usual!
im always so excited when these videos come out ty for the hardwork i know these take its appreciated
This hornsent video got MY HORN extended to the MAX 😎
It is said that the horn reached the heavens.
@@MoxieWatts lmao gold 👍
I'm a bit surprised that the Giants aren't mentioned in this, considering that they are said to have gotten the Horns first.
The "Talisman of all Crucibles", which item desc. reads:
_A giant mass of intermingling Crucible attributes. Reduces damage taken from critical hits and head shots and improves the effectiveness of rolling and backstepping, but also increases damage taken at all times. _*_Rumored to have sprouted upon giants and is known as the "mother of Crucibles" in ancient tower lore._*
Not to mention, as Ziostorm pointed out in their video ( th-cam.com/video/x9zKRcgO67U/w-d-xo.html ), the Lamenter form has both red hair and a giant face on its back, similar to how red hair is said to be a trait of the Giants, with them having red hair, and having a face on their chests.
Combine that with the Furnace Golems and their visages - both the appearance and description* of the collectable ones, and the appearance of the ones on their hips - and now this, this all further paints the picture that the Giants, the Omens, the Fell God and the Crucible are all related somehow.
*Description reads as: _A smaller imitation of the furnace golem's visage. Material used for crafting items. Exceedingly rare to find. A stone mask surrounded by curled horns, depicting the fell god of fire that haunts the sagas of the hornsent._
Makes you wonder how Radagon connects to this all...and what's with the black flames and projectiles of the Lamenter? Plus the invisibility and misery and "bliss"? Hmmm, some connection to Destined Death, but without the power of the Rune... but how, and why? I suppose Omens do have a connection to DD through their ability to see evil spirits that haunt their nightmares, and their ability to call upon wraiths. Plus the sky in the Dung Eater's Age of Despair ending is very similar to the sky in Godwyn's dream. Hmmm...
Yeah I'm surprised the giants weren't mentioned, it goes to show that the omen genetic trait is totally random and can appear on any natural lifeform, even the animals in the lands of shadow have extra horns
The giants were not made by the fell god. Heck it's mentioned that they merely "borrowed" its power and were cursed to be its keepers. My theory is that they were primordial beings of the crucible that rose some time around the ancient dragons and were subjugated by them into being the flame's keepers.
@@alfalldoot6715 I didn't say the Giants were made by the Fell God. Though the borrowed power curse is an interesting note.
@@alfalldoot6715 It's also interesting to note that the Fell God is described as "malformed" and "corrupt", suggesting a possible change into the evil god we know today. Especially when combined with people's recent theories on the Fell God once being the Sun and maybe having two eyes.
Another great video from you, Smough. I do disagree with the Crucible jot having a physical form, though, as many items associated with the Crucible are only farmable in Rauh. The first hornsent warriors were also from Rauh, so if the Crucible ever had a physical manifestation, it was most likely there.
I also think you might have missed something with the Curseblades. I might be mistaken, but I believe I remember that some of the items from the Curseblade set and weapons mention that they are those who specifically failed to become tutelary deities. The Hornsent likely approved of their practice, but for whatever reason, harshly punished those who failed with imprisonment.
I'm in support of the jars being genuine attempts to create a saint and that Marika was the only successful one.
There is a note somewhere that says they die and "hopefully" are reborn as a saint, so Marika wouldn't have known of the process and would have been part of the Hornsent's civilization for a time. Then, at some point she found out, and so came "the betrayal." I think she went along with their plans of elevating their new saint to godhood only to turn their back on them after the process was complete.
It's interesting how similar the Barbed Staff-spear from the Inquisitors and Siluria's Tree spear are. The Inquisitor's spear is almost like a more refined, more delicate version of the tree spear
A new SmoughTown video is a dream come true
Thanks my friend - hope you enjoy!
Fun fact. Smoghtown and Vaati vids help lull my newborn to sleep. This one is an absolute life saver.
I think much like AotA, Hunter's nightmare, ash's of Ariendel, and ringed city, the Shadow of the Erdtree depicts a hellscspe.
Messmer is the Satan Figure, the Furnace golems and Knights are demonic forces punishing the damned.
It is specifically mentioned that all manner of death ends up in the shadow lands
I think the reason they view the crucible as a spiral is because of the gales of wind. When the wind picks up it creates a circular spiral pattern.
These vids getting me all worked up 😩
(Keep it up 🙏)
Can we trust Hyetta's words considering that they come from the Three Fingers and therefore Metyr. We know that Metyr never reconnected with The Greater Will.
Probably not - but it''s all we have from that period of time
No , Metyr almost die because of the birth of the 3 fingers
Do we know that the Three Fingers commune with Metyr?
@@Mare_Man we know that all fingers descend from metyr, so I imagine their perspective is shaped by her beliefs in one way or another.
@@kaleeddy5227They don't actually all come from Metyr since Ymir has birthed some of his own. The Three Fingers are summoned by chants of despair not by Metyr.
Watching this while I work, loving this video so far!! And the art on the thumbnail is *chefs kiss*
Thank you so much for being here! Means so much
Can’t wait to hear your thoughts on Metyr and the revelations of the fingers from the DLC. Imo it seems peering into the primeval current allowed sorcerers to learn the knowledge of the cosmos, and with that they understood that the Greater Will was gone, never to return. At least that’s the theory I’ve formed now. Perhaps that’s why Ranni’s quest line seems to tie the story of the Lands Between up neatly, whereas the other endings (minus the frenzy) allow the cycle to continue b/c even the fingers can’t reach their god. I’m curious your thoughts on how Metyr and her lore tie into the base game. Solid vid tho otherwise!!
Yeh defo the subject I am most excited about/interested in rn - will absolutely be reviewing it in the near future (after a Mohg video)!
In the legacy of the Hornsent section you should include the Spiral Tree Cult mentioned in the description of the Spiral Tree seal
Babe wake up, smoughtown just dropped an hour and twenty minute hornsent video.
yoo moxie
About the different conceptions of the crucible: If the Greattree is the previous conduit of the crucible and it was chopped or burned down, it would make sense that the crucible warriors associate the crucible with a new tree sprouting from a stump. Maybe the greattree was the spiral tree? Could kind of look like the Scadutree and Erdtree were once the spiral greattree, and Marika’s order literally straightened out one over the other - promoting life over death, which probably wasn’t celebrated to the same extent before her.
I have an unrelated (crazy) theory. I just noticed that Marika is wearing an armband when she becomes a god in the trailer, which I have heard signifies marriage (in the current era she has one on each arm representing two marriages). Unfortunately we cant see if she is wearing one on both arms (if she was, that would rule out the marriage theory) but she is wearing one, meaning she married Godfrey before she became a god. So, the theory is this: Could Serosh be the Divine Beast Marika takes the runes from? It would make some sense to punish the god by this imprisonment while still taking advantage of its experience as lord. Also, there is this finger rule about beasts and shadows, so maybe they somehow invoked this rule to force Serosh to comply? The fact that he doesn’t have horns is a point against, but we have seen that horns can come and go from Morgott. But that could also be propaganda. Another point against, is that he is specifically described as having been a lord, so maybe he was the consort of the hornsent god at some point, maybe not even in the era of the hornsent - I don’t have a counter for this. Also, he is described as having golden fur and he guides the golden lineage. Equally interesting is that this is pretty much all we know about him, as if his previous role as lord is diminished or even obfuscated in the eyes of the people.
Honestly the DLCs translations are a little off compared to the base game but it's still nice to see you make content nonetheless
I hope you are feeling better Champion!!
Feeling alot better! Thanks so much for checking in
When you were talking about Elden stars, I couldn't help but wonder where metyr fit into the story. The Elden beast wasn't the first thing sent by the greater will, so when did metyr land, and when did marika start following the guidance of the fingers?
Yeh gonna try and iron these lore points out in a Metyr video!
@@SmoughTown I love your content. Cant wait for more vids❤️
Was rewatching the Messmer video and hoping for this to come out sooner than later and then I open your channel and there we go, 23 mins ago! Been looking forward to this one as the crucible and hornsent are very interesting
Thanks so much for being here - sorry it took so long!
@@SmoughTown There's a lot of research to be done for the Hornsent for sure. Quality over quantity!
A certain lore expert on the Soulsborne series is back!!!!!
Too kind! Hope you enjoy!
All i hoped for, always, thank you!!
Marika was justified in burning the Hornsent. Fight me lol
I don't know if I quite agree with the idea that Marika killed the hornsent god. From the story trailer, we can see that the bodies are fresh, glistening as if they were just killed, including those stacked up to create the divine gate. This reads to me as the act intending to reach the gods, which fits well with the spiral tower being seen as divine. But I think the tower was an active attempt to reach the gods, that upon its completion was usurped. This also fits pretty well with the myth of the Tower of Babel -- the name of the tower even came from an Akkadian name, "Bab-ilim" --the use of Enir-Ilim seems unlikely to be a coincidence here.
Like, it's still possible that she killed their god to ascend, but to me it looks more like the Hornsent created this tower and the gate to reach the gods, and Marika took advantage of its existence to pass through it and become god herself.
so weird knowing everyone who's commented rn hasn't finished watching the video yet, we're all watching at the same time
Yup
Maybe they cranked it to 2x speed
I always crank it to 1.5. Smoughtown is more than understandable.
@@freedomscale2957 I thoroughly enjoy his Scottish diction and accent make such colourfull character to his style of expression, indeed. :)
@@Gatchu137 it was like 19mins in at the time
hour twenty, oh my! Much appreciated, love watching your videos.
For everyone saying they check every day for a new smoughtown video, don’t forget about the notification button. He’s one of the few I actually have notifications on so I’m not checking every day like some fiend lmao
Appreciate that shout out bud
@@SmoughTownyou got my back with the lore, I got your back with the shoutouts. I literally went into the DLC with my Rotten Crucible Knight build because the crucible is one of my favorite subjects, so when I got the notification I came as soon as I could lmao.
Just when I thought I was going to have a slow day at work. Thank you Smough 😌
My pleasure - I hope you enjoy!
Something ive never heard anyone mention is that tornados are spirals too, so it absolutely makes sense that the hornsent make use of the storms. And that would also connect Farum Azula to the crucible, as theres a giant ass spiral in the center of it.
Let's go!!!
Hope your doing well Smough!
Very excited for this one!
Doing well my friend! Thanks for being here and hope you enjoy