The first 500 people to use my link skl.sh/hawkshaw09241 will get a 1 month free trial of Skillshare premium! This nameless tower caught my attention ever-since the DLC dropped, so I hope you enjoyed the dive into it! What do you think it's for? Let me know what other topics you'd like me to tackle!
I believe Norman architecture (a type of Romanesque architecture) was the style that preceded the gothic. All of which happened to pretty much take place during the entire span of the middle ages. Great video.
Fr. I clicked on this video thinking "How did this guy make a 33 minute video on a huge structure with no direct information or reference to it" and still learned effectively nothing about it
Just face it all these yapping scum are grifters wanting ad revenue. All of them. Haven't had someone who actually mattered in this community since Redgrave, but oh yeah baby let's meat ride dungsacks like this or Vatti right?
I think we are supposed to see the bowl as having previously been suspended between the prongs on top of the tower, and having fallen off some time ago. So the tower isn't nameless, Shadow Tree Chalice is the name of the whole tower, not just the bowl, thus the area name. It was built to collect the sap, which produced the fragments. Maybe?
Yeah I assumed this was the obvious answer? The bowl was on top of the tower collecting the sap (perhaps even then going down into the tower to be processed or collected in some fashion?). As part of Marika's ransacking of the Land of Shadow, she displaced the bowl, leaving the Scadutree to pour it's precious sap down to it's base, where the Scadutree Avatar now sits in a mass of pooling, unused sap. I would imagine the Shadow Keep was built later on and placed there intentionally to block access to it, along with Commander Gaius. A handful of Scadutree fragments still remain within the chalice, proving that no-one has been up to it since. Perhaps the pooling sap at the base was used to grow the Erdtree from? Given then they seem to share the same point in space.
@@peterbear4413 i would take the occam's razor thing further and say the idea of the bowl being suspended between the prongs even complicates things too much. taking that part out leads me to the guess that it is just a marker/monument for the chalice. nothing more, nothing less. i don't buy the idea of it not being a monument simply because it's not in an accessible/entirely prominent place, i think it's supposed to be prominent AND mark the literal location of something important, so there has to be some compromise in it's placement which is why its not visible from everywhere
Yeah and just looking at them, it makes such perfect sense. Everything fits right into place the visual story telling was right there all along. That’s why Fromsoft lore digging can be so rewarding.
it's so clear that there was cut sote content relating to the lore of the banished knights but since every pebble in elden ring was surely meticulously placed by miyazaki to provide little hints to a big correct lore solution, we pretend that's what the remnants are
@@ace-smith You think that hundreds of banished knights corpses placed in the bossroom of a remembrance boss are not jntended to say anything? You have to understand that important locations like this in Elden Ring usually depict concept art supervised by Miyazaki almost 1:1. In some cases I agree people read into stuff too much, but here that is not the case.
@@tinminator8905 if you don't actually read what i say i don't see why you think i should have to read what you say. never once did i say they were "not intended to" anything, i said it was cut content
@@ace-smith “but since every pebble in elden ring was surely meticulously placed by miyazaki”. Your sarcastic statement hints that you don’t believe that a lot of environmental storytelling is meant to say anything. I am sorry that I did not know where you draw your arbitrary line, when you are intentionally vague in your comment. What is there cannot be cut content by definition. I don’t understand what exactly you mean in your few lines.
@@Morrov yeah I knew that area was distinctive but after beating Gaius and getting drawn by the chalice and scadutree fragments I just didn't pay attention to the tower lol.
17:57 "Wanton strumpet" is not a repetition nor a tautology, as they mean different things. Instead, it connotes a sense of malice. IE, she didn't have to be a strumpet, but she did it to cause as much pain as possible. Could be indicating that she seduced Hoarah Loux just to destroy the spirit of the hornsent.
It depends on the definition, as “wanton” can mean either a deliberateness or, in a more archaic sense (like much of the diction of ER and so probably the better meaning in context), sexual looseness
You're right, "wanton" usually goes toward "deliberately excessive," not just "extremely indulgent." There's a definite element of "I did it for the lulz" if not "exceeding an acknowledged limit to prove some wider point."
i don't think this is true at all. i think by "wanton" she means excessive, not malicious. she's essentially calling her a super whore, distinct from a normal regular whore
A cool theory is that thats the place godfrey shed himself of horaouh loux and and became elden lord. He accepted the sap there and by drinking shed himself of the heritage he had. Him being cheiftan of the highland warroirs, they fought beasts and bears, his horah loux form looks very much like the runebears then conquering serosh, beasts are highly regarded in the land of shadow, he was probably a citizen at the time. Theres also this real life momument ,where this pilot by the name of godfrey flew through. It has like a ceremonial arch. Check out gameplus the alchemist, im just saying whatever i remember from his video
Bruh what are you talking about HL is seen ingame, its just him freed of Serosh. He doesnt change his form, he just takes off some clothes and is covered in Serosh's blood. Why is every ER theory just wild fanfics?
@@TheShadowOfHumanity He didn't mean literal physical appearance but fighting style. It's true, compare Hoarax Loux attacks side by side with the rune bear attacks they're the same.This is the video OP mentioned that explains this towers story (And shows the comparison between Hoarax Loux and runebears): th-cam.com/video/mtNtRZ7Nlk4/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=GamePlus%7CThealchemist
I know from where you took that info, I also saw that video. I find it weird that they would take such a specific real life thing to reference, but yeah it is possible
i like to think that the hornsent more than respecting godfrey they feared him. he had no horns, so he was inferior. however, he was strong enough to kill the beasts the hornsent treated like demigods, and able to guide the crucible knights, who might very well be golden bird warriors. godfrey also believed in "might is right so the entire belief of the hornsent to him was rubbish. so on one side you got the hornsent treating the hornless like second class citizens or worse, and on the other a hornlesss barbarian whose entire existence is an F-U to the entire hornsent culture and is too strong to be punished or stopped. no wonder he joined forces with Marika.
Yeah, I'm just posting theories I see of others as well to see if something new comes up from all this speculation. I'm hoping we get something relatively conclusive, probably not. BTW, what are your prevailing theories on the GEQ and marikas original sin
This is a great revelation, because it also links back to Miquella and potentially proves Radagon’s paternity to Messmer. For heraldry impaling, the left side of the shield is called the “sinister” side. It is the position of greater honour, and typically holds the paternal arms of the husband (aka baron or masculine) in marital unions. The right side of the shield is called the “dexter” side and shows the family arms of the wife (aka femme or feminine). Remember when Miquella abandoned his arms sinestral and dextral? I always wondered why those terms were used rather than left and right. But, putting these connections together, he abandoned his sinestral arm (masculine, husband/paternal) the flame symbol, on the fourth floor of the specimen storehouse of the shadow keep and his dextral arm (feminine, wife/maternal) the spiral symbol, in the small room at the top of the Belurat Tower Settlement. These locations cannot be coincidental. Marika connected to Belurat Tower, sure..the spiral crest being maternal is clear. However, the flame crest would now be interpreted as a paternal sign, meaning Radagon. Was Radagon at one point in the Shadow Keep before it became the Shadow Keep? Was a regal family that used the flame statuettes residing there first? Side note: this is also just more evidence for the theory of Radagon being Messmer’s father. Perhaps Messmer took up dad’s flame crest into his incantations. But, back to the heraldry: if this is the case, then Messmer does become the Impaler in both senses of the term as you noted, but more appropriately because he would be THE REASON for the impalement. A child being born of two different factions makes for a pretty good reason to establish a union. Messmer the Impaler is quite literally the line going down the middle of the crest that brings the flame and spiral together. So, if this is the case, were Radagon and Marika separate beings at this early point? Or did Marika split Radagon from herself and set him up in the Shadow Keep’s original castle for this? I have no idea. But, every child born of Marika and Radagon is cursed, and the alliance explains why Messmer’s original army of black knights uses the crucible powers. Your theory makes sense to me. Hmm, the fact that Messmer calls us a “mongrel intruder” now fits better as well. The word mongrel refers to a person of mixed background or descent, or an indeterminable breed. It would definitely be considered an insult as we have no heraldry to back up our lineage. I guess maybe that’s important to Messmer. Anyway, I’m just throwing ideas out to see what sticks. What are your thoughts?
miyazaki said in an interview a while ago that every empyrean has their different "aspects" split into different beings: - ranni has her body and her soul separated from eachother - miquella has st. trina - marika has radagon - and malenia has her "daughters of rot" these different aspects of their selves are metaphorically and literally parts of them, different beings which make up one whole person. radagon is like a representation of marika's connection to order, and he has either always existed as part of her, or was "created" when she became an empyrean. however, we know from the other empyreans that these different aspects of their selves can be split apart physically, with the most clear example being miquella and st. trina so with all of this, i think it's safe to say that marika and radagon have always been together as one person, but that they are still able to separate physically
One thing I always wondered was why is Gaius placed here, facing the Keep and defending the arch. From what, invaders having already fought their way through the Keep? Is that who the fallen banished knights are? But how is the Keep still standing if they went this far? You'd think he would be posted at the Keep's entry, defending it and his Lord, much like all the other members of Messmer's crusade are doing. So, here's my theory. Could the arch have been a door to the Lands Between prior to the Lands of Shadow being obscured away? Could it be from where the Messmer's forces first arrived in the land of Shadows, thus explaining why their headquarters are situated this close? It would also explain why Gaius would be defending this "door", as enemy troops might come through it to attack, thus the corpses. But with the Lands being sealed away, the door is now defunct.
While I agree that there was a period of time where the Erd Tree and Horsent were allies, it is not hard for me to believe that the Hornsent would be willing to call what Marika did a betrayal even if they hadn't been allies/friendly. The Hornsent thought of and treated the numen like slaves; torturing them and stuffing them into jars. Any act of rebellion or disobedience would seem like a betrayal to them.
No, that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. It is not like the shamans were ok with that and just gave themselves up. This is seen by the struggle scene depicted in the whipping hut. They just lacked the strength to fight back. Marika clearly didn’t know of the fate of her people for a while, shown by the sudden extreme shift of the Erdtree lineage’s opinion of the crucible, which happened when she found out most likely. The shift is mentioned in many items such as the crucible talismans.
@@tinminator8905 thing is often an oppressive group thinks that they r doing their victims a favour. Irl colonial powers often justified their oppression as 'bringing civilization' to their colonial subjects whom they exploited. The hornsent could've had a similar mindset where they genuinely thought they were helping the shamans in some way by torturing them
Hey, I really enjoyed the video--solid observations about the updates given to the interior of the storeroom. On the subject of the braided crest in Messmer's sigil, I think it's supposed to be the braid that Rennala gifted Rellana when she left the Carian royal family, and that Rellana was wed to Messmer. It appears in places like Castle Ensis, and as you pointed out about the Shadowkeep, I think its renovations more closely resemble the interior design of academic institutions like the Carian Study Hall, and it would help support a later change to the ethos of the crusade. There's some more concrete evidence for this in the Japanese where Moonrithyll's sword mentions she could've been the bridesmaid of Rellana, and Rellana's Twin Blades don't really make it sound like her love was unrequited in JP. Nonetheless, I still do think there are many connections between the Banished Knights and the Hornsent through Serosh, and we do know the BK's supported Godfrey and then Morgott later on
That was my initial thought as well, but I incline to disagree now. If the spiral circle was the symbol of ensis and does appear there, like you state, I would be on your side fully. But searching for it, I could not find any. I mean, you are technically correct because it does appear as part of the full Messmer crest, but not on its own like in the storehouse. The thing I found a lot of is the empty creast circle with the spear down the middle. So I dont believe it is Rellanas crest, because then it would appear in Ensis for SURE if it was. If the symbol does appear in ensis, please tell me where, because I searched for a while.
One interesting thing to note about your initial thought on the function of this tower, if you look around the base wall of the Keep surrounding Gaius' arena, you can actually see massive block structures which looks like massive gates or entrances which were later sequestered away. It supports the theory that at a time people could make pilgrimages to the scadu chalice to share in it's sap, and why people would already know to favor the scadu tree fragments. Really great find about the secret alliance!!
Before fully watching the video, I'll note that the tower in question is in almost pristine condition. Other than the Divine Towers, the architecture of Elden Ring's pre Marika past tends to be in some state of ruin. Just look at the architecture of Farum Azula or the Ancient Dynasty for an example. The tower this video is dedicated to, though, doesn't seem to have so much as a scratch, or even plantlife growing on it.
Because Messmer's forces still seem to be organized and functioning. So no reason for the tower to look crumbled and abandoned, especially if the tower holds some great importance.
I was so confused when I killed Radahn. I thought the game then sends me to the tower and the chalice at the bottom to get the Miquella cutscene from the trailer but… nothing happened. The way the DLC ended was so disappointing. Especially because it seems so important. It’s the flying Ring City tower all over again.
@@Dravianpn02 the main centerpiece tower you first see when entering the Ringed City, there's no way to reach it in game without hacks. Zullie has a video on it.
The moniker "Messmer the impaler" is clearly intended to reflect Vlad the impaler, and this fits when we are introduced to Messmer's crusade. But the idea that he may have originally acquired that name by "impaling" the sigils is fascinating. Especially as heraldically an equal split of shields was most often used in marriage to signify unity and alliance.
I am convinced it is intended to be an obvious misdirection, as the Inpalement of Vlad came from the way he treated prisoners (the actual impalement). Messmers impalement could be referring to the joining of houses in the medieval fashion. I makes a bit more sense to me, at least, to keep explanations based in the same realm (references to medieval practices/ancient or older cultures, etc). I could be wrong, ofc. I love the way the lore treats every piece of information as almost a duality. There are usually two very clera possible explanations to everything.
When the shields are impaled with 2 crests doesn't mean only an alliance, it can mean a conquest too. So after he destroyed the Hornsent, he could have been taken that crest for himself, because he conquered the land.
Yeah, it feels like a symbol of Marika to me - probably her braid. I wonder if that's why all the normal Marika statues in the shadow lands look like they have their right braid hacked off...
I think the circular spiral may actually be related to Miquella. The haligtree knight helms have a circular spiral braid on them as well as other things related to the haligtree and Miquella.
And the pattern shows up inside the the specimen storehouse including the medic ward with the shattered and discarded jars, and is a symbol for the wooden lifts on the backside of the keep.
@@hee8410 Marika probably swore to avenge her people when she cut off the braid in Shaman Village. And then that braid found place on Messmer's crusade symbol (in form of a circular spiral). And the purpose of the crusade is... revenge! It actually makes sense.
Isn’t there banished knight armour in the room with Hewg? After the DLC some friends and I started a fresh run and I’ve spent more time looking through locations, and it was one of the things that stood out to me. The circle emblem on the Round Table itself and a mass grave of Banished Knights right next to Messmer feels like it signifies something, I’m just not sure what exactly. There’s also a Marika statue with a dashed head which felt weird for a place that was full of people, primarily tarnished, who were trying to restore the Elden Ring that Marika had made. Is it possible the Banished Knights *are* Tarnished? The text for the armor set says they were forced to abandon their homes from *misfortune* or misdeed, and Messmer is both aware of the concept of Tarnished and proceeds to try and kill us because of it. He isn’t bothered someone was sanctioned Lord, he was bothered a Tarnished someone bereft of Light was sanctioned Lord since that was never supposed to happen. Maybe that’s jumping to too many conclusions lol.
You’re on the right lines. Even before the dlc, I had interpreted the Banished Knights’ armour/weaponry being hung up on the walls of the RTH to represent them, at one point, being a primary force of Godfrey’s permitted warriors. Whether they’re tarnished or not doesn’t matter (even though you’re theory of them being tarnished fits very well), what matters is that the RTH was the building created for GODFREY specifically, with the Lionscrest of the Golden Lineage being on the front door before the entrance (the lionscrest was first created when Godfrey took Serosh on). Obviously, at some point when Godfrey was banished, Marika took over… but the foundation that the RTH was built upon was for Godfrey and his extinguished warriors. The banished knight itemry further reinforces their connection to Godfrey initially.
The Scadutree Chalice Tower definetly seems like a symbol of The Erdtree's Bounty. First I saw it from the gravesite plain, it draws the eye straight to the falling sap.
i think the circled spiral is a sigil of Marikas faction during her collaboration with hornscent, makes sense because it basically looks like a predecessor to the modern elden ring.( aka spiral ring)
Yeah. There are more braid and spiral iconography/motifs that don't necessitate a connection to the Hornsent than there are ones that do. However, the crucible is the focal aspect of them in any case. Thus spiral and braid iconography/motifs are basically evidence of Crucible reverence.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but the faction with the greatest utilization of Gothic architecture in-game is the Nox and the various Rises. While they don't have any previously obvious links to the Spiral faction, aside from possibly antiquity, the overlap is too conspicuous to not address. Indeed, the Scadutree Chalice arch bears a strong superficial resemblance to the Belfries, which are their own enigmas.
Haven't watched the whole video so I don't know if it will be stated later, but it's worth mentioning that the circular spiral on Messmer's crest does have a clear origin. It appears directly on his sealed eye on its outer rim. Zlofsky's images of Messmer demonstrate this.
Mentioned in the comments, the braided ring seems to be a symbol of Marika - given it appears on the grace seal she placed on him. However, I think that the banished knight army execution is a great catch - perhaps related to the Storm Lord.
Actually, if it is a symbol of Marika (when she was in alliance with the Hornsent culture in some fashion) then the impalement of his imagery would in fact depict inheritance - he is her son, after all.
I literally just finished a video by Game Plus The Alchemist that was released one day ago and it focuses nearly entirely on the concept of that building being a Triumph Arch
The siginl on the cape of the banished knight commanders reminds me of the thorny crowns of the thorn sorcerers. Makes me wonder if those briar crowns were fashioned in a helix and that dates the blood star aberrant sorcery period.
Something I havent seen anyone touch on but would love your thoughts: we are told Messmers army stormed Bellurat to wipe out the hornsent. But when we get there, it isnt occupied by Messmers forces (like the scene we get at castle Morne), and instead there are still some hornsent and even a dancing lion. Was Messmer eventually forced to retreat to the Shadow Keep?
There is one spirit ash that mentioned a rebellion among his troops occur and messmer had to put down his own men. It could be possible that occupation of bellurat did exist up until then.
The banished knights in gaius' arena have been driving me mad - I love this Niall (pronounced the same as the river Nile) is an irish name. The VAs for Grandam and the Hornsent are both from Dublin. The VA for Commander Niall is an American by the name of Liam O'Brien. For me, that puts a nice bow on the theory
The circular spiral next to Messmer's flame is Marika's symbol. You can also find the exact same circle on the seal Marika replaced his eye with. And considering it's Marika who desired the crusade in the first place... yeah the spiral circle is hers.
I was thinking the same thing. To me it looks like the braid symbol same as the Golden Braid talisman. I wonder if the crucible faction and the shamans are the same thing. But it's strange to think that the shamans and the hornsent would have been working together in a research program, though. But then again, Marika also seemed to have been trusted by hornsent. Regardless, there's a lot of missing history.
What are talking about? The symbol you refer to looks like a cross with the vertical line higher up and bending upwards. That is not a spiral circle? Or am I misunderstanding what you mean? Please send a link to a picture, because what you say here does not make a llt of sense to me.
@@tinminator8905 There are two symbols on Messmer's eye: one is on his iris and it's visible (the one you're talking about), the other is encircling the iris and it's hidden behind the eye socket. Technically you can see it when Messmer plucks his eye out and holds it between his fingers but it's all covered in blood so it's quite hard to make out a shape of the pattern. Or you can use special programs to see the model of the eye without blood. Check out Zlofsky they posted detailed pictures of Messmer's eye.
@@tinminator8905 There are two symbols on Messmer's eye: one is on his iris and it's visible (the one you're talking about), the other is encircling the iris and it's hidden behind the eye socket. Technically you can see it when Messmer plucks his eye out and holds it between his fingers but it's quite hard to make out a shape of the pattern. If you look at the eye model without blood you can clearly see it. Look up Zlofsky they have detailed images of Messmer's eye.
@@tinminator8905 There are two symbols on Messmer's eye: one is on his iris and it's visible (the one you're talking about), the other is encircling the iris and it's hidden behind the eye socket. Technically you can see it when Messmer plucks his eye out and holds it between his fingers but it's all covered in blood so it's quite hard to make out a shape of the pattern. If you look at the eye's 3D model without blood you can clearly see it.
Idk but it felt like it shows the people from far away region as a sign, "here is the bowl collecting erdtree sap. Come here if you want the blessing."
This was so intriguing! I genuinely emitted a gasp when I realized that only one half of Messmer's sigil was represented in the Fire Knight incantations... even if everything else is pure speculation, that is absolutely intentional. Amazing video!
I think the idea of the banished knights being betrayed makes a lot of sense, and could also explain both the banished knights connection to Miquella, and how Miquella found out about the land of shadow in the first place.
Japanese gardens often have Y shaped braces for trees. They are used to support branches that are aesthetically desirable but that would otherwise be structurally unsound
Same for me for the last 3 videos, also seen other people complaining about it in the comments. There is, I believe a setting to not send videos to subscriptions. Maybe Hawkshaw has it on for some reason??
@@Icebrick2 that setting is used to prevent "dead accounts" from harming your video. if youve been a content creator for many years, youre bound to have subscribers that are no longer active on the platform. the algorithm sees that as, "oh wow look at all these accounts that dont want to watch this. i better not show it to others." but if you turn that setting on, this cant happen.
Wow, just released my own mystery arc explanation video yesterday and one of my viewers sent my yours! Really excited to watch your video and see wether we agree on some points or it's totally different theory fueled by the rich lore of Elden Ring, I really like your channel btw.
Wait is The Stormhawk King in the specimen warehouse like all the other great divine beasts. There is a lot of scafolding were only flying creatures could get to in there and was adapted for foot. Would be funny if the flat tower thing was a perch for a giant golden bird. Like a Snuggly reference?
Stormveil’s lion motifs are in reference to Godfrey and his lion Serosh, as Godrick who worships Godfrey is Lord of Stormveil. The banished knights at Stormveil are hired by Godrick because he is a low-life that a lot of more reputable knights do not want to serve.
I think it's implied that Marika merked the Hornsent god in order to become a god, herself. The golden threads she pulls from that thing in the opening are its remains that she is pulling the arc rune from, the one at the top of the Elden Ring and the same one she is hung from in the Erdtree.
I like to think of that monument supporting the gigantic sunflower on the Scadutree before it was cut off and burned. Why else would the Scadutree avatar look like a sunflower?
Welp I love being in the middle of crafting a theory about the Crucible, Hornsent, and Marika's "original sin" and then having a video pop up that completely disspells it 😂. Back to the drawing board. Really interesting, especially the highlighting of the alliance between Messmer and the Hornsent. I think it's safe to speculate that the alliance was in place during the war against the Giants, whether those are Messmer's spears on the Mountaintops or not. This makes the betrayal and purge that much worse. Good stuff.
If I had a penny for every time a new lore video about this exact building came out, exactly today, I had two pennies. Which isn't much, but weird it happened twice.
While the Specimen storehouse was likely built prior to the rest of the shadow keep, it definitely wasn't a specimen storehouse. It might not even have been a place of study. It's rather clear to me that that tower was repurposed to fit all the specimens, as some fire knights fought to preserve remnants of the old civilization.
Absolutely stellar work on the connections to the banished knights! The Scaduview arch might be a big magnet to direct the flow of falling sap into the chalice
Idk if you’ll see this, but the spiral symbol on the split messmer crest, the interweaving circle, is found on the crusade insignia. Looks like it might be on fire
Marika is as much a demigod to the hornsent as she is to the people of the erdtree, they tried to make a god in bonny village, she is that god. The hornsent viewed her as a saivour, which makes her treachery so reviled.
Something completely unique to the Specimen's Storehouse, particularly the area around the lift, is the bat statues. Bats do tend to hang around Rauh ruins, but their existence (and more importantly, that of the chanting winged dames) isn't acknowledged by anything else in the game.
26:55 I feel like the lion reliefs in Stormveil is more a reference to Godrick's admiration of Godfrey since he was given Serosh, a lion, to contain his battle lust.
If Messmer/Marika did indeed betray the "spiral ring" faction then why his crest still features that symbol? It doesn't really make sense to me. The easiest explanation is that the spiral ring was just a symbol of Marika, since it's described as golden in the fire knight sigil and many stone tablets like those in the storehouse are found in her bedchamber. Plus the spiral ring is found on each scale of Messmer armor, which to me indicates a more intimate connection with that symbol, that again points to his mother
@@TriforceWisdom64 we can interpret it as we want, I pointed out on the fact that there is no mistake in the translation, the Japanese text implies Messmer's flame affects the soul too. Whatever that does is another question. It doesn't destroy souls like Frenzy that we do know at least.
@@TriforceWisdom64 I mainly took Messmer’s “cleansing” of the soul as being the separation of soul and body. I.e - when he burns people, their souls are blackened and sent to hell (the Shadow Lands) to burn eternally. I also have a theory this is almost directly due to the removal of the rune of death
this is exactly the kind of breakdown I crave. The color theory video was already pretty fundamental as a guide, wonderful breakdown here. I'd felt similarly about the friendliness for a time between the tower folk and erdtree, and wonder what spurred the crusade to begin with. Seems to be the biggest remaining question of the dlc to me, and videos like this get us much closer to that.
Fantastic video! And the cruel irony, perhaps intentional by Messmer at the moment of the crusade (due to his intention of "becoming a monster" for his mother's sake, as others have alluded to), of becoming a literal impaler in addition to a heraldic impaler is a stroke of storytelling genius!
hey your video is the best one that connects everything and explains the lore of the banished knights! well done! everything is backed up with in-game text without huge leaps of reasoning unlike 90% of the other lore tubers that seems to write fan fics
Hearing Hateno's music towards the end was such a welcome surprise, with the narration combining two of my favourite franchises. 😊 (I only understood over the narration/recognised that bit).
I don't know if this would be helpful, but Messmers gauntlets come with a ring in one of the fingers.Given the importance of rings in the game to the point that FromSoft made sure that the equipables are amulets instead of rings and the only rings in the main game are Torrents and Rannis, it should be something of significant importance.
Love the connection between Niall and his knights. As one of my favorite bosses, I love that this only deepened the lore for him and his men. Wonderful vidoe!
Now this is why I love this Channel, always shows you those little details that are almost imposible to remember. I didn't remember that the roof of the Specimen Storehouse was the only place in the game where you find the ring symbol of Messmer's Crest alone, wich shows that part was at least made by that faction of the alliance. More curious there's also Symbols of the Spiral spear alone without the fire or Ring spiral.
The Nameless tower kind of reminds me of the Four Belfries. They are also random monuments that are just standing slabs. There is an ancient man shown on them and there is actually another one in the Land of Shadow!
Amazing video, love how your voice fits the context, great editing, and the whole vibe just matches the content perfectly. Keep it up, you're killing it! 💪
I always assumed that soul and spirit were one in the same in elden ring, but Mesmer’s flame burning body and soul, leaving blackened spirits does at least distinguish it from the frenzied flame that burns and destroys everything. Thanks for changing my perspective, and incredibly insightful video!!
I am starting to think that Marika and Radegon were separated entities and Radegon was a criminal whose flash was merged into Marikas using the jar ritual. That's why hornsent would work with her and feels betrayed by her. She was their saint. At the end of the game we can also see that Marika shaded her flesh and is now made of stone, that might be her attempt to regain her body for just herself... That would also add to why jars in shadowlands and lans between are so different. In lands between they still merge, but just with body, after death and of their own volition.
I love that the clearest and most important connection between Messmer's army and the Hornsent culture is literally the medieval process of *impalement*... you can't tell me they didn't think this through a million times over
I guess at one point the sap was MORE and fell down from further up the branches, actually into the cup at the top. Trees wither from the outside to the inside and we can see the Scadu Tree is "dying".
Your voice, alongside Rome Total war Soundtrack is an amazing combo. The content of the video itself is really good, but the means which they are delivered are also top notch.
I understand the thing that makes FromSoft’s worldbuilding so unique is that they dont give us anything but jesus man this DLC was so full of holes it could float
really liked this! I think the spiral is circle is Marika's symbol at the time. It's found on Messmer's eye, ring, and bracelet. Perhaps the specimen storehouse was built by hornless hornsent working with Marika (so they still got burned), but before the betrayal, and maybe Messmer was brought over and installed there, who added to the structures and we got the impaled crest.
26:16 I don't understand what you mean when you say that the Dragon motifs are no longer present. They are clearly there on the shoulder, knee, and thigh guards. Dragon wings alongside Crucible horns. That would be like saying there is no Draconic influence in the Drake Knight set. There is also Dragon Iconography (Two Dragons facing each other) in the embossing on the Banished Knight breastplate. This was a good video, but I think you got a lot wrong about the Banished Knights and who they are. Also, another thing, the Storm doesn't necessitate Hornsent influence. Both Stormveil and the barbarians of the Badlands have deep connections to the Storm without ever having come in close contact (at the very least) to the culture of the Hornsent. So, we have three distinct societies that revere the Storm as both a source of power and divinity, potentially without having come into any sort of contact with each other. I think you've got the relationship between the Hornsent and the Crucible and/or Storm backwards.
Love this theory! It does a great job filling in some of the blanks between the Erdtree's birth and the Crusade. One piece of counter evidence for the spiral pattern with bunches of grapes in the Specimen Storehouse is that the same pattern in Rauh is visible in the ruined forges at much higher resolution, and it doesn't really look like the Storehouse pattern. Very likely they're all related though - maybe Messmer's people took inspiration from Rauh in their decoration.
To me, the height and rounded top looks like it is meant to resemble the divine gate. The chalice/bowl past it mirrors the bowl in the ground in the center of the Radahn fight arena in front of the divine gate. What its purpose or use was though, I haven't a clue.
Wanton strumpet isn't a tautology. Wanton adds additional context to strumpet. It supports your claim and illustrates the Hornsen't sense of betrayal and their contextulization of Marika's actions. But it's not a tautology.
Wow!!! Incredible investigative work Mann I don’t think you mentioned this directly and it may go without saying but the act of summoning spirits which both Commander Niall and O’Neil use is also a key feature of the Hornsent culture and further enmeshes the theory
I'd look further to some of the parts left unmentioned here: Similarity between the shape of the gate of divinity and the scadutree tower. The importance of the chalice, possibly THE chalice it would seem, at the base. The perfectly maintained nature of the tower. Not even in Leyndell is such an immaculate as-if-newly-built structure found. And furthermore, the seeming juxtaposition of this and so many other factors which would suggest it is either of significant age and relating to powers from before the erdtree; or at it least commemorates such. The absence of a site of grace in its immediate area. (Compare with finger ruins and the shaman village being the only other similarly site of graceless areas.) The presence of so many blessed bone shards in the vicinity of the arch and chalice. If I were to throw out one significant spitball about something we might not have the information to strongly support, I'd wonder about if there are different 'flavors' of "gold" at play with some of these great "gold" powers.
I appreciate the earnestness of this video’s intro. Because I definitely know how it is to be playing a Souls game and think, “There’s no lore on this?! The fuck there isn’t! I’m finding it!” and then spend a weekend crafting a theory.
Amazing!! I think this is also confirmed by the bottom of the headless Marika Statues. Two large female lions, two small male. The union of the hornsent and Marika, just like she did with Radagon and Ranalla. I think this sigil would be a later addition to the fact Marika was originally aligned with them, just like Messmer until they betrayed them -as I watched more of the video, I think that the symbol of just the flame was Marikas original symbol (why its all around her and in select places of the keep, the boats being on fire, a very viking like, other method of Death, pre Marikas decision to remove death and thus create the GO) that was her attempt to find an order of life and death which could work with the heavy death/Spirit culture of the horsent (which later she just fully gets rid of for the erdtree version of death, chosen death vs. Destined death) The symbol of her and radagon =Mesmers fire. This also helps to explain why the horsent also hate the fell god! That's why the symbol of the fire combined with the horsent is his.....he's the product of the horsent and the union of Radagon/Marika. Like how the children of Renalla are also Marikas as well as Radagons. And thus why he had to be hidden. He's the literal symbol of how she came into power. This leads to the snakes tho...and why the horsent hate the snakes too...he took a beloved symbol of snakes (I believe it once was for the horsent, they are spirals of course) and debased it, literally. ....GEQ/Gofrey being the other pair (horsent) anyone?? Lol
This speculation fits very well with my own feelings relating to the likelihood that Messmer's Crusade truly was a full-fledged betrayal of the Hornsent who genuinely saw themselves as allies to Marika's Erdtree imperial hegemony, which meant the offensive against them really was a surprise purge with no expectation. Perhaps they supported her because they saw her as the actualization of their religious and spiritual aspirations to reach divinity through the Spiral current of the Crucible, and they had no idea of the probable resentment she held over what was done to her and her Shaman (and likely Numen) people with the jar rites and the horrors it represented. Essentially, Marika played the long game, biding her time and then committing herself to revenge far later than was expected, once the Hornsent had already become confident in their place within the world that Marika had created. She also likely killed two birds with one stone by utilizing the situation to also lock Messmer away, since he symbolized such a threat to the Erdtree with his abyssal flame and forbidden serpent powers. Perhaps Godfrey was connected to all this in some way too, just as the potential link you made with the banished knights, which is certainly fascinating conjecture. The Shadow Keep potentially being burnt black is an interesting allusion to what happened to the Black Knights in Dark Souls, which is an idea I do like as well! Very interesting video, and there are so many more threads to discuss when it comes to this topic.
The spiral depicted on Messmer's coat of arms is engraved on Marika's seal, which is also his eye prosthesis. The spiral is completely identical, not just similar, and there are also such spirals on some of the scales of his armor. I believe that to show this symbol on the coat of arms was for Messmer a sign of respect for his mother's gift, as the only thing restraining the power of the abyssal serpent. This is very touching, because what Messmer directly associates with his mother is depicted on the coat of arms next to the symbol of his flame. As if to show that he didn't want to be away from his mother.
The first 500 people to use my link skl.sh/hawkshaw09241 will get a 1 month free trial of Skillshare premium!
This nameless tower caught my attention ever-since the DLC dropped, so I hope you enjoyed the dive into it! What do you think it's for?
Let me know what other topics you'd like me to tackle!
The BOTW music was a killer addition. That wasn't Tarrey Town's theme, was it? Man it has been quite a while....
I believe Norman architecture (a type of Romanesque architecture) was the style that preceded the gothic. All of which happened to pretty much take place during the entire span of the middle ages. Great video.
There were 2 BOTW songs
Gerudo Town night theme in the beginning
Hateno village day in the end!
@@r3gret2079
The godslayer greatsword is a spiral flame weapon with the same moveset as the fire knight greatsword, another spiral flame weapon. Food for thought.
I've searched for videos on theories concerning the Sun. I guess there is just no information on what happened to it to even make a lore video.
Spend all DLC looking at the thing and when you finally arrive you just walk right past it to a bowl.
I cooked udon noodles on jt
@@yharnamiyhill787 Udon't say...
@@coreyrachar9694 lawl
I was pissed
Same with the divine gate. Can't help but feel there was supposed to be more
My man gave us a half hour essay on a fucking wall. Truly the Miyazaki way
Fr. I clicked on this video thinking "How did this guy make a 33 minute video on a huge structure with no direct information or reference to it" and still learned effectively nothing about it
@@MinerDineryeah, I like Hawkshaw, but this is really reaching.
Just face it all these yapping scum are grifters wanting ad revenue. All of them. Haven't had someone who actually mattered in this community since Redgrave, but oh yeah baby let's meat ride dungsacks like this or Vatti right?
I think we are supposed to see the bowl as having previously been suspended between the prongs on top of the tower, and having fallen off some time ago. So the tower isn't nameless, Shadow Tree Chalice is the name of the whole tower, not just the bowl, thus the area name. It was built to collect the sap, which produced the fragments. Maybe?
This is almost certainly the answer. You don't need a complex conspiracy when a simple explanation works just as well. Occam's Razor.
Yeah I assumed this was the obvious answer? The bowl was on top of the tower collecting the sap (perhaps even then going down into the tower to be processed or collected in some fashion?). As part of Marika's ransacking of the Land of Shadow, she displaced the bowl, leaving the Scadutree to pour it's precious sap down to it's base, where the Scadutree Avatar now sits in a mass of pooling, unused sap. I would imagine the Shadow Keep was built later on and placed there intentionally to block access to it, along with Commander Gaius. A handful of Scadutree fragments still remain within the chalice, proving that no-one has been up to it since.
Perhaps the pooling sap at the base was used to grow the Erdtree from? Given then they seem to share the same point in space.
bowl is too small...
@@peterbear4413 i would take the occam's razor thing further and say the idea of the bowl being suspended between the prongs even complicates things too much. taking that part out leads me to the guess that it is just a marker/monument for the chalice. nothing more, nothing less. i don't buy the idea of it not being a monument simply because it's not in an accessible/entirely prominent place, i think it's supposed to be prominent AND mark the literal location of something important, so there has to be some compromise in it's placement which is why its not visible from everywhere
@@peterbear4413sir, this Hawkshaw’s channel. Rampant speculation and outrageously complicated conspiracy theories are required.
The banished knight info was a bombshell, didn't even know they were even in the dlc
Yeah and just looking at them, it makes such perfect sense. Everything fits right into place the visual story telling was right there all along. That’s why Fromsoft lore digging can be so rewarding.
it's so clear that there was cut sote content relating to the lore of the banished knights but since every pebble in elden ring was surely meticulously placed by miyazaki to provide little hints to a big correct lore solution, we pretend that's what the remnants are
@@ace-smith You think that hundreds of banished knights corpses placed in the bossroom of a remembrance boss are not jntended to say anything? You have to understand that important locations like this in Elden Ring usually depict concept art supervised by Miyazaki almost 1:1. In some cases I agree people read into stuff too much, but here that is not the case.
@@tinminator8905 if you don't actually read what i say i don't see why you think i should have to read what you say. never once did i say they were "not intended to" anything, i said it was cut content
@@ace-smith “but since every pebble in elden ring was surely meticulously placed by miyazaki”. Your sarcastic statement hints that you don’t believe that a lot of environmental storytelling is meant to say anything. I am sorry that I did not know where you draw your arbitrary line, when you are intentionally vague in your comment. What is there cannot be cut content by definition. I don’t understand what exactly you mean in your few lines.
Shit, I didn't think twice about this nameless thin tower and here we have an entire lore video. Never ceases to amaze me.
It was the thing I wanted to get to the most from the moment the first trailer dropped, it looks so cool
@@Morrov yeah I knew that area was distinctive but after beating Gaius and getting drawn by the chalice and scadutree fragments I just didn't pay attention to the tower lol.
Didn't it? I was obsessed with that thing, along with so many others. What's its use, why the gleaming black rock, what era was it built in, etc
Oh ive spent ages looking for clues.
@@KurwaRomekfor me I found it odd that it was so… thin?
17:57 "Wanton strumpet" is not a repetition nor a tautology, as they mean different things. Instead, it connotes a sense of malice. IE, she didn't have to be a strumpet, but she did it to cause as much pain as possible. Could be indicating that she seduced Hoarah Loux just to destroy the spirit of the hornsent.
☝️🤓🤓🤓🤓
I undrestood it as an emphasis via adjective... like "a thirsty slut" instead of just "a slut"
It depends on the definition, as “wanton” can mean either a deliberateness or, in a more archaic sense (like much of the diction of ER and so probably the better meaning in context), sexual looseness
You're right, "wanton" usually goes toward "deliberately excessive," not just "extremely indulgent." There's a definite element of "I did it for the lulz" if not "exceeding an acknowledged limit to prove some wider point."
i don't think this is true at all. i think by "wanton" she means excessive, not malicious. she's essentially calling her a super whore, distinct from a normal regular whore
A cool theory is that thats the place godfrey shed himself of horaouh loux and and became elden lord. He accepted the sap there and by drinking shed himself of the heritage he had. Him being cheiftan of the highland warroirs, they fought beasts and bears, his horah loux form looks very much like the runebears then conquering serosh, beasts are highly regarded in the land of shadow, he was probably a citizen at the time. Theres also this real life momument ,where this pilot by the name of godfrey flew through. It has like a ceremonial arch. Check out gameplus the alchemist, im just saying whatever i remember from his video
Bruh what are you talking about HL is seen ingame, its just him freed of Serosh. He doesnt change his form, he just takes off some clothes and is covered in Serosh's blood. Why is every ER theory just wild fanfics?
@@TheShadowOfHumanity He didn't mean literal physical appearance but fighting style. It's true, compare Hoarax Loux attacks side by side with the rune bear attacks they're the same.This is the video OP mentioned that explains this towers story (And shows the comparison between Hoarax Loux and runebears): th-cam.com/video/mtNtRZ7Nlk4/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=GamePlus%7CThealchemist
I know from where you took that info, I also saw that video. I find it weird that they would take such a specific real life thing to reference, but yeah it is possible
i like to think that the hornsent more than respecting godfrey they feared him. he had no horns, so he was inferior. however, he was strong enough to kill the beasts the hornsent treated like demigods, and able to guide the crucible knights, who might very well be golden bird warriors. godfrey also believed in "might is right so the entire belief of the hornsent to him was rubbish. so on one side you got the hornsent treating the hornless like second class citizens or worse, and on the other a hornlesss barbarian whose entire existence is an F-U to the entire hornsent culture and is too strong to be punished or stopped. no wonder he joined forces with Marika.
Yeah, I'm just posting theories I see of others as well to see if something new comes up from all this speculation. I'm hoping we get something relatively conclusive, probably not. BTW, what are your prevailing theories on the GEQ and marikas original sin
This is a great revelation, because it also links back to Miquella and potentially proves Radagon’s paternity to Messmer. For heraldry impaling, the left side of the shield is called the “sinister” side. It is the position of greater honour, and typically holds the paternal arms of the husband (aka baron or masculine) in marital unions. The right side of the shield is called the “dexter” side and shows the family arms of the wife (aka femme or feminine).
Remember when Miquella abandoned his arms sinestral and dextral? I always wondered why those terms were used rather than left and right. But, putting these connections together, he abandoned his sinestral arm (masculine, husband/paternal) the flame symbol, on the fourth floor of the specimen storehouse of the shadow keep and his dextral arm (feminine, wife/maternal) the spiral symbol, in the small room at the top of the Belurat Tower Settlement.
These locations cannot be coincidental. Marika connected to Belurat Tower, sure..the spiral crest being maternal is clear. However, the flame crest would now be interpreted as a paternal sign, meaning Radagon. Was Radagon at one point in the Shadow Keep before it became the Shadow Keep? Was a regal family that used the flame statuettes residing there first? Side note: this is also just more evidence for the theory of Radagon being Messmer’s father. Perhaps Messmer took up dad’s flame crest into his incantations.
But, back to the heraldry: if this is the case, then Messmer does become the Impaler in both senses of the term as you noted, but more appropriately because he would be THE REASON for the impalement. A child being born of two different factions makes for a pretty good reason to establish a union. Messmer the Impaler is quite literally the line going down the middle of the crest that brings the flame and spiral together.
So, if this is the case, were Radagon and Marika separate beings at this early point? Or did Marika split Radagon from herself and set him up in the Shadow Keep’s original castle for this? I have no idea. But, every child born of Marika and Radagon is cursed, and the alliance explains why Messmer’s original army of black knights uses the crucible powers. Your theory makes sense to me.
Hmm, the fact that Messmer calls us a “mongrel intruder” now fits better as well. The word mongrel refers to a person of mixed background or descent, or an indeterminable breed. It would definitely be considered an insult as we have no heraldry to back up our lineage. I guess maybe that’s important to Messmer.
Anyway, I’m just throwing ideas out to see what sticks. What are your thoughts?
I'm not sure how much it matters, but you mistook dexter and sinestral. Sinestral is left and Dexter is right.
@@GammaWolf99 Yikes! Thank you for the correction. I did get them mixed up. 😅
miyazaki said in an interview a while ago that every empyrean has their different "aspects" split into different beings:
- ranni has her body and her soul separated from eachother
- miquella has st. trina
- marika has radagon
- and malenia has her "daughters of rot"
these different aspects of their selves are metaphorically and literally parts of them, different beings which make up one whole person. radagon is like a representation of marika's connection to order, and he has either always existed as part of her, or was "created" when she became an empyrean. however, we know from the other empyreans that these different aspects of their selves can be split apart physically, with the most clear example being miquella and st. trina
so with all of this, i think it's safe to say that marika and radagon have always been together as one person, but that they are still able to separate physically
One thing I always wondered was why is Gaius placed here, facing the Keep and defending the arch. From what, invaders having already fought their way through the Keep? Is that who the fallen banished knights are? But how is the Keep still standing if they went this far? You'd think he would be posted at the Keep's entry, defending it and his Lord, much like all the other members of Messmer's crusade are doing.
So, here's my theory. Could the arch have been a door to the Lands Between prior to the Lands of Shadow being obscured away? Could it be from where the Messmer's forces first arrived in the land of Shadows, thus explaining why their headquarters are situated this close? It would also explain why Gaius would be defending this "door", as enemy troops might come through it to attack, thus the corpses. But with the Lands being sealed away, the door is now defunct.
Like you know that not all of messmbers boys are still loyal to him right? Black knights send their regards
While I agree that there was a period of time where the Erd Tree and Horsent were allies, it is not hard for me to believe that the Hornsent would be willing to call what Marika did a betrayal even if they hadn't been allies/friendly. The Hornsent thought of and treated the numen like slaves; torturing them and stuffing them into jars. Any act of rebellion or disobedience would seem like a betrayal to them.
I agree with this, they didn’t need to be friendly for it to be seen as a betrayal.
No, that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. It is not like the shamans were ok with that and just gave themselves up. This is seen by the struggle scene depicted in the whipping hut. They just lacked the strength to fight back. Marika clearly didn’t know of the fate of her people for a while, shown by the sudden extreme shift of the Erdtree lineage’s opinion of the crucible, which happened when she found out most likely. The shift is mentioned in many items such as the crucible talismans.
@@tinminator8905 thing is often an oppressive group thinks that they r doing their victims a favour. Irl colonial powers often justified their oppression as 'bringing civilization' to their colonial subjects whom they exploited. The hornsent could've had a similar mindset where they genuinely thought they were helping the shamans in some way by torturing them
shamans* Numens were an offshoot/ancestor to shamans
Hey, I really enjoyed the video--solid observations about the updates given to the interior of the storeroom. On the subject of the braided crest in Messmer's sigil, I think it's supposed to be the braid that Rennala gifted Rellana when she left the Carian royal family, and that Rellana was wed to Messmer. It appears in places like Castle Ensis, and as you pointed out about the Shadowkeep, I think its renovations more closely resemble the interior design of academic institutions like the Carian Study Hall, and it would help support a later change to the ethos of the crusade. There's some more concrete evidence for this in the Japanese where Moonrithyll's sword mentions she could've been the bridesmaid of Rellana, and Rellana's Twin Blades don't really make it sound like her love was unrequited in JP. Nonetheless, I still do think there are many connections between the Banished Knights and the Hornsent through Serosh, and we do know the BK's supported Godfrey and then Morgott later on
That was my initial thought as well, but I incline to disagree now. If the spiral circle was the symbol of ensis and does appear there, like you state, I would be on your side fully. But searching for it, I could not find any. I mean, you are technically correct because it does appear as part of the full Messmer crest, but not on its own like in the storehouse. The thing I found a lot of is the empty creast circle with the spear down the middle. So I dont believe it is Rellanas crest, because then it would appear in Ensis for SURE if it was. If the symbol does appear in ensis, please tell me where, because I searched for a while.
One interesting thing to note about your initial thought on the function of this tower, if you look around the base wall of the Keep surrounding Gaius' arena, you can actually see massive block structures which looks like massive gates or entrances which were later sequestered away. It supports the theory that at a time people could make pilgrimages to the scadu chalice to share in it's sap, and why people would already know to favor the scadu tree fragments.
Really great find about the secret alliance!!
Before fully watching the video, I'll note that the tower in question is in almost pristine condition. Other than the Divine Towers, the architecture of Elden Ring's pre Marika past tends to be in some state of ruin. Just look at the architecture of Farum Azula or the Ancient Dynasty for an example. The tower this video is dedicated to, though, doesn't seem to have so much as a scratch, or even plantlife growing on it.
Because Messmer's forces still seem to be organized and functioning. So no reason for the tower to look crumbled and abandoned, especially if the tower holds some great importance.
I was so confused when I killed Radahn. I thought the game then sends me to the tower and the chalice at the bottom to get the Miquella cutscene from the trailer but… nothing happened. The way the DLC ended was so disappointing. Especially because it seems so important. It’s the flying Ring City tower all over again.
Flying ring city tower?
@@Dravianpn02 the main centerpiece tower you first see when entering the Ringed City, there's no way to reach it in game without hacks. Zullie has a video on it.
@@commanderyew2312 I'm trying my damndest to find that video and went through her whole ds3 playlist and can't find the video you speak of :(
@@Dravianpn02 th-cam.com/video/hB0In-uJhKA/w-d-xo.html might be this one.
@@commanderyew2312 it was very present in the trailers for some reason so it was very awkward that it couldn’t be accessed in the actually dlc
The moniker "Messmer the impaler" is clearly intended to reflect Vlad the impaler, and this fits when we are introduced to Messmer's crusade. But the idea that he may have originally acquired that name by "impaling" the sigils is fascinating. Especially as heraldically an equal split of shields was most often used in marriage to signify unity and alliance.
I am convinced it is intended to be an obvious misdirection, as the Inpalement of Vlad came from the way he treated prisoners (the actual impalement). Messmers impalement could be referring to the joining of houses in the medieval fashion. I makes a bit more sense to me, at least, to keep explanations based in the same realm (references to medieval practices/ancient or older cultures, etc). I could be wrong, ofc. I love the way the lore treats every piece of information as almost a duality. There are usually two very clera possible explanations to everything.
When the shields are impaled with 2 crests doesn't mean only an alliance, it can mean a conquest too. So after he destroyed the Hornsent, he could have been taken that crest for himself, because he conquered the land.
The exact design of the circular spiral is NOT unique to the crest! It also appears on Messmer's eye, surrounding the golden iris.
Yeah, it feels like a symbol of Marika to me - probably her braid. I wonder if that's why all the normal Marika statues in the shadow lands look like they have their right braid hacked off...
@@hee8410the braid we find in the shaman village next to the grandmother tree figure is her hacked off braid.
I think the circular spiral may actually be related to Miquella. The haligtree knight helms have a circular spiral braid on them as well as other things related to the haligtree and Miquella.
And the pattern shows up inside the the specimen storehouse including the medic ward with the shattered and discarded jars, and is a symbol for the wooden lifts on the backside of the keep.
@@hee8410 Marika probably swore to avenge her people when she cut off the braid in Shaman Village. And then that braid found place on Messmer's crusade symbol (in form of a circular spiral). And the purpose of the crusade is... revenge! It actually makes sense.
Isn’t there banished knight armour in the room with Hewg? After the DLC some friends and I started a fresh run and I’ve spent more time looking through locations, and it was one of the things that stood out to me. The circle emblem on the Round Table itself and a mass grave of Banished Knights right next to Messmer feels like it signifies something, I’m just not sure what exactly. There’s also a Marika statue with a dashed head which felt weird for a place that was full of people, primarily tarnished, who were trying to restore the Elden Ring that Marika had made.
Is it possible the Banished Knights *are* Tarnished? The text for the armor set says they were forced to abandon their homes from *misfortune* or misdeed, and Messmer is both aware of the concept of Tarnished and proceeds to try and kill us because of it. He isn’t bothered someone was sanctioned Lord, he was bothered a Tarnished someone bereft of Light was sanctioned Lord since that was never supposed to happen.
Maybe that’s jumping to too many conclusions lol.
You’re on the right lines. Even before the dlc, I had interpreted the Banished Knights’ armour/weaponry being hung up on the walls of the RTH to represent them, at one point, being a primary force of Godfrey’s permitted warriors. Whether they’re tarnished or not doesn’t matter (even though you’re theory of them being tarnished fits very well), what matters is that the RTH was the building created for GODFREY specifically, with the Lionscrest of the Golden Lineage being on the front door before the entrance (the lionscrest was first created when Godfrey took Serosh on). Obviously, at some point when Godfrey was banished, Marika took over… but the foundation that the RTH was built upon was for Godfrey and his extinguished warriors. The banished knight itemry further reinforces their connection to Godfrey initially.
The Scadutree Chalice Tower definetly seems like a symbol of The Erdtree's Bounty. First I saw it from the gravesite plain, it draws the eye straight to the falling sap.
Bros using the oblivion soundtrack as backround music, yet another reason to love hawkshaw
i think the circled spiral is a sigil of Marikas faction during her collaboration with hornscent, makes sense because it basically looks like a predecessor to the modern elden ring.( aka spiral ring)
Yeah. There are more braid and spiral iconography/motifs that don't necessitate a connection to the Hornsent than there are ones that do. However, the crucible is the focal aspect of them in any case. Thus spiral and braid iconography/motifs are basically evidence of Crucible reverence.
This was right up there with tarnished archeologist. Loved it!
I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but the faction with the greatest utilization of Gothic architecture in-game is the Nox and the various Rises. While they don't have any previously obvious links to the Spiral faction, aside from possibly antiquity, the overlap is too conspicuous to not address. Indeed, the Scadutree Chalice arch bears a strong superficial resemblance to the Belfries, which are their own enigmas.
Haven't watched the whole video so I don't know if it will be stated later, but it's worth mentioning that the circular spiral on Messmer's crest does have a clear origin. It appears directly on his sealed eye on its outer rim. Zlofsky's images of Messmer demonstrate this.
Mentioned in the comments, the braided ring seems to be a symbol of Marika - given it appears on the grace seal she placed on him.
However, I think that the banished knight army execution is a great catch - perhaps related to the Storm Lord.
Actually, if it is a symbol of Marika (when she was in alliance with the Hornsent culture in some fashion) then the impalement of his imagery would in fact depict inheritance - he is her son, after all.
I literally just finished a video by Game Plus The Alchemist that was released one day ago and it focuses nearly entirely on the concept of that building being a Triumph Arch
The siginl on the cape of the banished knight commanders reminds me of the thorny crowns of the thorn sorcerers. Makes me wonder if those briar crowns were fashioned in a helix and that dates the blood star aberrant sorcery period.
Something I havent seen anyone touch on but would love your thoughts: we are told Messmers army stormed Bellurat to wipe out the hornsent. But when we get there, it isnt occupied by Messmers forces (like the scene we get at castle Morne), and instead there are still some hornsent and even a dancing lion. Was Messmer eventually forced to retreat to the Shadow Keep?
There is one spirit ash that mentioned a rebellion among his troops occur and messmer had to put down his own men. It could be possible that occupation of bellurat did exist up until then.
The banished knights in gaius' arena have been driving me mad - I love this
Niall (pronounced the same as the river Nile) is an irish name. The VAs for Grandam and the Hornsent are both from Dublin. The VA for Commander Niall is an American by the name of Liam O'Brien. For me, that puts a nice bow on the theory
…there… are no banished knights in Giaus’ arena…. There’s nothing but tree stumps in his arena….
The circular spiral next to Messmer's flame is Marika's symbol. You can also find the exact same circle on the seal Marika replaced his eye with. And considering it's Marika who desired the crusade in the first place... yeah the spiral circle is hers.
I was thinking the same thing. To me it looks like the braid symbol same as the Golden Braid talisman. I wonder if the crucible faction and the shamans are the same thing. But it's strange to think that the shamans and the hornsent would have been working together in a research program, though. But then again, Marika also seemed to have been trusted by hornsent. Regardless, there's a lot of missing history.
What are talking about? The symbol you refer to looks like a cross with the vertical line higher up and bending upwards. That is not a spiral circle? Or am I misunderstanding what you mean? Please send a link to a picture, because what you say here does not make a llt of sense to me.
@@tinminator8905 There are two symbols on Messmer's eye: one is on his iris and it's visible (the one you're talking about), the other is encircling the iris and it's hidden behind the eye socket. Technically you can see it when Messmer plucks his eye out and holds it between his fingers but it's all covered in blood so it's quite hard to make out a shape of the pattern. Or you can use special programs to see the model of the eye without blood.
Check out Zlofsky they posted detailed pictures of Messmer's eye.
@@tinminator8905 There are two symbols on Messmer's eye: one is on his iris and it's visible (the one you're talking about), the other is encircling the iris and it's hidden behind the eye socket. Technically you can see it when Messmer plucks his eye out and holds it between his fingers but it's quite hard to make out a shape of the pattern. If you look at the eye model without blood you can clearly see it.
Look up Zlofsky they have detailed images of Messmer's eye.
@@tinminator8905 There are two symbols on Messmer's eye: one is on his iris and it's visible (the one you're talking about), the other is encircling the iris and it's hidden behind the eye socket. Technically you can see it when Messmer plucks his eye out and holds it between his fingers but it's all covered in blood so it's quite hard to make out a shape of the pattern. If you look at the eye's 3D model without blood you can clearly see it.
Idk but it felt like it shows the people from far away region as a sign, "here is the bowl collecting erdtree sap. Come here if you want the blessing."
Likely the most logical answer
Before watching, from messmers window, it blocks the view of the scadutree.
"Quit shinning that dang light in my house"
This was so intriguing! I genuinely emitted a gasp when I realized that only one half of Messmer's sigil was represented in the Fire Knight incantations... even if everything else is pure speculation, that is absolutely intentional. Amazing video!
I think the idea of the banished knights being betrayed makes a lot of sense, and could also explain both the banished knights connection to Miquella, and how Miquella found out about the land of shadow in the first place.
Japanese gardens often have Y shaped braces for trees. They are used to support branches that are aesthetically desirable but that would otherwise be structurally unsound
Hawkshaw video shows up at the top of my recommendations, but not in my subscribed tab. Wtf, TH-cam? Great video, Hawkshaw!
Same for me for the last 3 videos, also seen other people complaining about it in the comments.
There is, I believe a setting to not send videos to subscriptions. Maybe Hawkshaw has it on for some reason??
@@Icebrick2 that setting is used to prevent "dead accounts" from harming your video. if youve been a content creator for many years, youre bound to have subscribers that are no longer active on the platform. the algorithm sees that as, "oh wow look at all these accounts that dont want to watch this. i better not show it to others." but if you turn that setting on, this cant happen.
1:13 that’s what she said
Wow, just released my own mystery arc explanation video yesterday and one of my viewers sent my yours! Really excited to watch your video and see wether we agree on some points or it's totally different theory fueled by the rich lore of Elden Ring, I really like your channel btw.
Love both of your channels yall are awesome
Wait is The Stormhawk King in the specimen warehouse like all the other great divine beasts. There is a lot of scafolding were only flying creatures could get to in there and was adapted for foot. Would be funny if the flat tower thing was a perch for a giant golden bird. Like a Snuggly reference?
Stormveil’s lion motifs are in reference to Godfrey and his lion Serosh, as Godrick who worships Godfrey is Lord of Stormveil. The banished knights at Stormveil are hired by Godrick because he is a low-life that a lot of more reputable knights do not want to serve.
I absolutely love and am intrigued by the close juxtaposition between older and newer architectural styles, Leyndell being another good example
12:10 Messmer the IMPALER being a double entendre is genius
I think it's implied that Marika merked the Hornsent god in order to become a god, herself. The golden threads she pulls from that thing in the opening are its remains that she is pulling the arc rune from, the one at the top of the Elden Ring and the same one she is hung from in the Erdtree.
I thought the circular spiral near Messmer's sigil was pretty obviously a symbol of Marika, given the similarity with her crown
I like to think of that monument supporting the gigantic sunflower on the Scadutree before it was cut off and burned. Why else would the Scadutree avatar look like a sunflower?
There was a sunflower on the scadutree?
@@bobertastic6541 Just a theory.
Welp I love being in the middle of crafting a theory about the Crucible, Hornsent, and Marika's "original sin" and then having a video pop up that completely disspells it 😂. Back to the drawing board.
Really interesting, especially the highlighting of the alliance between Messmer and the Hornsent. I think it's safe to speculate that the alliance was in place during the war against the Giants, whether those are Messmer's spears on the Mountaintops or not. This makes the betrayal and purge that much worse. Good stuff.
If I had a penny for every time a new lore video about this exact building came out, exactly today, I had two pennies.
Which isn't much, but weird it happened twice.
While the Specimen storehouse was likely built prior to the rest of the shadow keep, it definitely wasn't a specimen storehouse. It might not even have been a place of study. It's rather clear to me that that tower was repurposed to fit all the specimens, as some fire knights fought to preserve remnants of the old civilization.
Absolutely stellar work on the connections to the banished knights!
The Scaduview arch might be a big magnet to direct the flow of falling sap into the chalice
Idk if you’ll see this, but the spiral symbol on the split messmer crest, the interweaving circle, is found on the crusade insignia. Looks like it might be on fire
Marika is as much a demigod to the hornsent as she is to the people of the erdtree, they tried to make a god in bonny village, she is that god. The hornsent viewed her as a saivour, which makes her treachery so reviled.
That's something you can only assume if you dont know the japanese text
@@antiburgerlicheaktion3820it is a logical assumption given what we have access too. Please enlighten us to the Japanese version
Something completely unique to the Specimen's Storehouse, particularly the area around the lift, is the bat statues. Bats do tend to hang around Rauh ruins, but their existence (and more importantly, that of the chanting winged dames) isn't acknowledged by anything else in the game.
Probably because it was a specimen house.
@@eduardopuchet94 Except none of the specimens on display are bats, nor are any of them likewise represented in the architecture.
probably a plot hole.
There's bats flying around at the top of the storehouse. Also the bat statues are somewhat similar to gargoyles in gothic architecture
26:55 I feel like the lion reliefs in Stormveil is more a reference to Godrick's admiration of Godfrey since he was given Serosh, a lion, to contain his battle lust.
Very nice video!
Enjoying the deeper mysteries of the lore only the best lore-tubers find!
“Shadow’s Taint” is an absolutely unhinged chapter title
If Messmer/Marika did indeed betray the "spiral ring" faction then why his crest still features that symbol? It doesn't really make sense to me.
The easiest explanation is that the spiral ring was just a symbol of Marika, since it's described as golden in the fire knight sigil and many stone tablets like those in the storehouse are found in her bedchamber.
Plus the spiral ring is found on each scale of Messmer armor, which to me indicates a more intimate connection with that symbol, that again points to his mother
I heard that in jp text Messmer's flame burn only body, not soul. Because if it isn't then Messmer's flame works as Frenzied flame
No. It burns both. But doesn't destroy the soul like Frenzy and cleanses it instead, whatever that means.
@@padrenuestreI took the "cleansing of the soul" to be figurative, based on the idea that punishment cleanses sin.
@@TriforceWisdom64 we can interpret it as we want, I pointed out on the fact that there is no mistake in the translation, the Japanese text implies Messmer's flame affects the soul too. Whatever that does is another question. It doesn't destroy souls like Frenzy that we do know at least.
@@TriforceWisdom64 I mainly took Messmer’s “cleansing” of the soul as being the separation of soul and body. I.e - when he burns people, their souls are blackened and sent to hell (the Shadow Lands) to burn eternally. I also have a theory this is almost directly due to the removal of the rune of death
I love the double meaning of "Messmer the Impaler".
this is exactly the kind of breakdown I crave. The color theory video was already pretty fundamental as a guide, wonderful breakdown here. I'd felt similarly about the friendliness for a time between the tower folk and erdtree, and wonder what spurred the crusade to begin with. Seems to be the biggest remaining question of the dlc to me, and videos like this get us much closer to that.
Fantastic video!
And the cruel irony, perhaps intentional by Messmer at the moment of the crusade (due to his intention of "becoming a monster" for his mother's sake, as others have alluded to), of becoming a literal impaler in addition to a heraldic impaler is a stroke of storytelling genius!
hey your video is the best one that connects everything and explains the lore of the banished knights! well done! everything is backed up with in-game text without huge leaps of reasoning unlike 90% of the other lore tubers that seems to write fan fics
Hearing Hateno's music towards the end was such a welcome surprise, with the narration combining two of my favourite franchises. 😊 (I only understood over the narration/recognised that bit).
I don't know if this would be helpful, but Messmers gauntlets come with a ring in one of the fingers.Given the importance of rings in the game to the point that FromSoft made sure that the equipables are amulets instead of rings and the only rings in the main game are Torrents and Rannis, it should be something of significant importance.
Love the connection between Niall and his knights. As one of my favorite bosses, I love that this only deepened the lore for him and his men. Wonderful vidoe!
Now this is why I love this Channel, always shows you those little details that are almost imposible to remember. I didn't remember that the roof of the Specimen Storehouse was the only place in the game where you find the ring symbol of Messmer's Crest alone, wich shows that part was at least made by that faction of the alliance. More curious there's also Symbols of the Spiral spear alone without the fire or Ring spiral.
I always saw it as a crutch for the branch and was not surprised that it hosted a bowl to collect the golden sap behind it.
The Nameless tower kind of reminds me of the Four Belfries. They are also random monuments that are just standing slabs. There is an ancient man shown on them and there is actually another one in the Land of Shadow!
Amazing video, love how your voice fits the context, great editing, and the whole vibe just matches the content perfectly. Keep it up, you're killing it! 💪
I always assumed that soul and spirit were one in the same in elden ring, but Mesmer’s flame burning body and soul, leaving blackened spirits does at least distinguish it from the frenzied flame that burns and destroys everything. Thanks for changing my perspective, and incredibly insightful video!!
I am starting to think that Marika and Radegon were separated entities and Radegon was a criminal whose flash was merged into Marikas using the jar ritual. That's why hornsent would work with her and feels betrayed by her. She was their saint. At the end of the game we can also see that Marika shaded her flesh and is now made of stone, that might be her attempt to regain her body for just herself...
That would also add to why jars in shadowlands and lans between are so different. In lands between they still merge, but just with body, after death and of their own volition.
I love that the clearest and most important connection between Messmer's army and the Hornsent culture is literally the medieval process of *impalement*... you can't tell me they didn't think this through a million times over
I believe the other part of messmers crest is the abyssyl serpent that dwells within him
I guess at one point the sap was MORE and fell down from further up the branches, actually into the cup at the top. Trees wither from the outside to the inside and we can see the Scadu Tree is "dying".
Your voice, alongside Rome Total war Soundtrack is an amazing combo. The content of the video itself is really good, but the means which they are delivered are also top notch.
The back of the chair of the Tibia Mariner has the same shape as the nameless tower
I understand the thing that makes FromSoft’s worldbuilding so unique is that they dont give us anything but jesus man this DLC was so full of holes it could float
Wdym
The banished knights lore was something i was really not expecting, fucking incredible
really liked this! I think the spiral is circle is Marika's symbol at the time. It's found on Messmer's eye, ring, and bracelet. Perhaps the specimen storehouse was built by hornless hornsent working with Marika (so they still got burned), but before the betrayal, and maybe Messmer was brought over and installed there, who added to the structures and we got the impaled crest.
26:16 I don't understand what you mean when you say that the Dragon motifs are no longer present. They are clearly there on the shoulder, knee, and thigh guards. Dragon wings alongside Crucible horns. That would be like saying there is no Draconic influence in the Drake Knight set. There is also Dragon Iconography (Two Dragons facing each other) in the embossing on the Banished Knight breastplate.
This was a good video, but I think you got a lot wrong about the Banished Knights and who they are.
Also, another thing, the Storm doesn't necessitate Hornsent influence. Both Stormveil and the barbarians of the Badlands have deep connections to the Storm without ever having come in close contact (at the very least) to the culture of the Hornsent.
So, we have three distinct societies that revere the Storm as both a source of power and divinity, potentially without having come into any sort of contact with each other. I think you've got the relationship between the Hornsent and the Crucible and/or Storm backwards.
Love this theory! It does a great job filling in some of the blanks between the Erdtree's birth and the Crusade. One piece of counter evidence for the spiral pattern with bunches of grapes in the Specimen Storehouse is that the same pattern in Rauh is visible in the ruined forges at much higher resolution, and it doesn't really look like the Storehouse pattern. Very likely they're all related though - maybe Messmer's people took inspiration from Rauh in their decoration.
To me, the height and rounded top looks like it is meant to resemble the divine gate. The chalice/bowl past it mirrors the bowl in the ground in the center of the Radahn fight arena in front of the divine gate. What its purpose or use was though, I haven't a clue.
The twin elms ost from POE is such a nice touch during the explanation of the spiral alliance.
Thank you for making this video. It gave me so much more perspective on unsolved mysteries, and it was awesome.
Wanton strumpet isn't a tautology. Wanton adds additional context to strumpet. It supports your claim and illustrates the Hornsen't sense of betrayal and their contextulization of Marika's actions. But it's not a tautology.
I wish someone would do an in depth dive into the specimens in the specimen storehouse
My boyfriends the editor !! Video looks amazing, especially the animations !!
These questions make me wait in anticipation of what your perception of the timeline of Elden Ring is (with the DLC). Keep up the amazing work!
Wow!!! Incredible investigative work Mann I don’t think you mentioned this directly and it may go without saying but the act of summoning spirits which both Commander Niall and O’Neil use is also a key feature of the Hornsent culture and further enmeshes the theory
Love these observations. I could see Niall’s cape also representing the Scadutree Chalice from above…
this video helped me sleep, not an insult just very soothing oddly enough, not sure how to describe it
I'd look further to some of the parts left unmentioned here:
Similarity between the shape of the gate of divinity and the scadutree tower.
The importance of the chalice, possibly THE chalice it would seem, at the base.
The perfectly maintained nature of the tower. Not even in Leyndell is such an immaculate as-if-newly-built structure found. And furthermore, the seeming juxtaposition of this and so many other factors which would suggest it is either of significant age and relating to powers from before the erdtree; or at it least commemorates such.
The absence of a site of grace in its immediate area. (Compare with finger ruins and the shaman village being the only other similarly site of graceless areas.)
The presence of so many blessed bone shards in the vicinity of the arch and chalice.
If I were to throw out one significant spitball about something we might not have the information to strongly support, I'd wonder about if there are different 'flavors' of "gold" at play with some of these great "gold" powers.
I appreciate the earnestness of this video’s intro. Because I definitely know how it is to be playing a Souls game and think, “There’s no lore on this?! The fuck there isn’t! I’m finding it!” and then spend a weekend crafting a theory.
Damn I think you make a really compelling argument here. Cool to get some more lore on the banished knights too, didn’t expect that
Amazing!! I think this is also confirmed by the bottom of the headless Marika Statues. Two large female lions, two small male. The union of the hornsent and Marika, just like she did with Radagon and Ranalla. I think this sigil would be a later addition to the fact Marika was originally aligned with them, just like Messmer until they betrayed them
-as I watched more of the video, I think that the symbol of just the flame was Marikas original symbol (why its all around her and in select places of the keep, the boats being on fire, a very viking like, other method of Death, pre Marikas decision to remove death and thus create the GO) that was her attempt to find an order of life and death which could work with the heavy death/Spirit culture of the horsent (which later she just fully gets rid of for the erdtree version of death, chosen death vs. Destined death) The symbol of her and radagon =Mesmers fire. This also helps to explain why the horsent also hate the fell god!
That's why the symbol of the fire combined with the horsent is his.....he's the product of the horsent and the union of Radagon/Marika. Like how the children of Renalla are also Marikas as well as Radagons. And thus why he had to be hidden. He's the literal symbol of how she came into power.
This leads to the snakes tho...and why the horsent hate the snakes too...he took a beloved symbol of snakes (I believe it once was for the horsent, they are spirals of course) and debased it, literally.
....GEQ/Gofrey being the other pair (horsent) anyone?? Lol
Even miyazaki doesn't know
The use of some of The Outer Wilds music was choice.
Best souls lore channel on YT
This speculation fits very well with my own feelings relating to the likelihood that Messmer's Crusade truly was a full-fledged betrayal of the Hornsent who genuinely saw themselves as allies to Marika's Erdtree imperial hegemony, which meant the offensive against them really was a surprise purge with no expectation. Perhaps they supported her because they saw her as the actualization of their religious and spiritual aspirations to reach divinity through the Spiral current of the Crucible, and they had no idea of the probable resentment she held over what was done to her and her Shaman (and likely Numen) people with the jar rites and the horrors it represented. Essentially, Marika played the long game, biding her time and then committing herself to revenge far later than was expected, once the Hornsent had already become confident in their place within the world that Marika had created. She also likely killed two birds with one stone by utilizing the situation to also lock Messmer away, since he symbolized such a threat to the Erdtree with his abyssal flame and forbidden serpent powers. Perhaps Godfrey was connected to all this in some way too, just as the potential link you made with the banished knights, which is certainly fascinating conjecture. The Shadow Keep potentially being burnt black is an interesting allusion to what happened to the Black Knights in Dark Souls, which is an idea I do like as well! Very interesting video, and there are so many more threads to discuss when it comes to this topic.
The spiral depicted on Messmer's coat of arms is engraved on Marika's seal, which is also his eye prosthesis. The spiral is completely identical, not just similar, and there are also such spirals on some of the scales of his armor. I believe that to show this symbol on the coat of arms was for Messmer a sign of respect for his mother's gift, as the only thing restraining the power of the abyssal serpent. This is very touching, because what Messmer directly associates with his mother is depicted on the coat of arms next to the symbol of his flame. As if to show that he didn't want to be away from his mother.