Shadow of The Erdtree | Story & Ending Explained [Lore]
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 มิ.ย. 2024
- Shadow of The Erdtree had a compelling narrative that adds so much to the lore and world of Elden Ring. However it is a winding tale with many intersecting stories that need to be dissected: The Hornsent, Marika, Miquella, Mohg, The Shamans, Messmer, Radahn and much more. In this Lore Video we attempt to explain the story and ending of the DLC in as much detail as possible.
Intro: 0:00
The Crucible: 1:57
The Hornsent: 10:31
Marika & The Shamans: 19:56
Gold and Shadow: 37:07
The Shroud: 46:10
Messmer's Crusade: 59:49
Miquella: 1:16:32
Why Does Malenia Fight Radahn?: 1:30:08
Ending Explained: 1:34:39
From the Bandai Namco Website: Guided by Miquella, players embark on a new adventure into the Land of Shadow, a world full of dark secrets hidden behind the prosperity of the Golden Order brought upon by Marika.
Editor: Creators Studio - creatorsstudio.co.uk/
Thumbnail Commission by Shimhaq: x.com/shimhaq
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REFERENCES
Map overlay by Reddit u/GilliamYaeger: / so_i_overlaid_the_dlcs...
Quelaag's Channel: / @quelaag
Vaati's 'The Lore of Elden Ring is Cursed': • The Lore of Elden Ring...
Ratatoskr - Radahn's Heroic Concept: • General Radahn's Heroi...
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SOME COMMENTS AND AMENDMENTS:
1. I am pronouncing Scadutree wrong - I just can't get my brain to change it haha. Sorry
2. I agree with people's point re the Grandmother - she is likely the statue/remains in the Village under the tree and will revise this in future.
3. Some people disagree with my take on Radahn - that the vow was 'mutual' rather than foisted on Radahn. I am coming around to this idea, however there are issues with that as well. If I was to accept this idea, I would need to see it as a vow that was made...but broke down for some reason and thus Malenia was sent to 'collect'. I find it hard to believe that the Aeonian war was some kind of ritual send off for Radahn that was agreed on between the two parties, given hundreds of soldiers also needlessly died and an entire region was 'nuked'. Surely they should have just had a 1v1 duel if this was the case.
However I will go into more detail on both sides of this debate in future videos but thanks to everyone who has presented this alternate theory - tbh it wasn't something I had even considered.
As always continue to give me your thoughts in the comments below.
Absolutely love the visuals accompanied with the lore. I also appreciate you trying to remain as objective with regards to lore evidence and being thorough.
@@vongolamistowl Appreciate that my friend. Know my style isn't for everyone!
Whats your opinion on the absence of Gloam eyed queen and black flame lore? As far as I know there is not a SINGLE mention about her aside from the fact that snt Trinas knight ( the guy with the horse) had the code name : "Gloam eyed queen knight" in the files...
I'm just starting it (clearly, you just posted) but as a researcher/investigator that had to take leave Elden Ring lore has allowed me to sate my passion for discovery in a way that has been therapeutic. I had all this time and nothing to get my brain going and that was in Feb of 2022...then this game comes out.
I legit broke it apart and got back to my roots as an artist capturing in game cinematics. I pieced together parallels between real world events, mythological similarity, creation/cosmogeny stories, and actual flora/fauna. For example Devonia, like Ordovis and Siluria, is also a time period in geological history and specifically is noted to be when jawless fish existed. Then you find Lamprey eels slithering around...a jawless fish.
As an almost 40 year old woman people are surprised I play video games at all but even moreso that I have a few thousand hours in this game (counting the modding/cinematic video capture and leaving it on overnight). Dealing with an unexpected life event that left me without my usual outlet, this game has been the best therapy I could have found.
Also those columns are known as Solomonic columns named after King Solomon.
Thank you for your work and content. I hope to be able to contribute in some way and share my insight from a career that I can no longer fully partake in.
I do not believe that it is a statue of Marika on the Shaman Village, i believe its a tutelary deity, akin to the ones strewn about the Land of Shadow
It's deeply sad to see Messmer as a figure like Hades, having a duty he doesn't want, doing things he hates, and being hated by everyone
And also dying like a bitch in the easiest boss fight of the dlc
I feel awful for him. He was cursed from birth, got saddled with a job he didn't want but did anyway because his mother asked, was abandoned by said mother, and is ultimately killed by our Tarnished so we can use his flame. Never to be redeemed or appreciated, save by those closest too him, and never to have the truth of his story told.
At least he had a Carian Princess girlfriend
@@rileyspeck4918word? She does live in his keep, but was there anything else that pointed to them being a thing? I definitely missed it if so
It's a tie between him and Midra for the one I feel the most sorry for.
Something i like about the idea of melina being messmer's sister is the irony of godwyn's fate. Messmer and Melina, Mohg and Morgott, Malenia and Miquella. All linked at birth by something as twins.
And then there is godwyn, who isn't born with a twin but gets one in death in the form of ranni.
Yeh think that is a great shout!
It’s like his tragic half-death is symbolic of him not receiving full closure during childhood, with any twins etc.
He was lonely in his youth, and his Soul and Body both became individually separated and lonely at his death.
There's a theory I've seen online that Godwyn and Ranni were supposed to be the God/ Lord consort of the next age. But Ranni told Godwyn about how she didn't want to aquise to the 2 fingers, and he agreed to sacrifice his soul so she could undermine the Golden Order. The Golden Sun and Dark Moon become the Eclipse. Kinda is based on the idea that Godwyn believed more in the ancient dragon cult or believed in himself becoming the Prince of Death rather than the Golden order itself.
To be honest, makes me a little sad Godwyn didn't have more of a role in Shadow of the Erdtree.
@@MGHL9898 yeah, but it makes sense since both miquella and ranni's narratives revolve around souls and ranni made it so godwyn lost his forever. Radhan can be revived cause we don't kill him with the rune of death and so his soul is still out there
Its also a point of duality, good and evil. Godwyn was the perfect chill dude. But the pressure on Ranni to take him as king consort is why she had to off him.
In regards to how Messmer's crusade was sold to the public by Marika it could've been similar to 40k's Penitent Crusades where the crusaders either voluntarily or forcibly undergo a Crusade to redeem themselves.
All originate front the historical crusades. The pope and christians promised that all sins were forgiven if someone went on crusade.
Some descriptions refer to Messmer's soldiers as a penal legion: prisoners forced into serving. When you get to the Shadow Keep there are so many of them just standing or sitting around looking dejected. Only Messmer and his closest followers still have some faith in the crusade.
although on the opposite side remember what happened with godfrey and his army "i will strip you of grace and you will be hounded from the lands between" godfrey was exiled because he and his soldiers were too warlike and barbaric for the now civilised lands between, there may be a similar case with messmer beng tainted and his forces made up of criminals
Sourcs,@@DanteThebengal
@@billtimothyimmanuelsiraitg4166 When he proclaimed the first Crusade, pope Urban II said: "I say it to those who are present. I command that it be said to those who are absent. Christ commands it. All who go thither and lose their lives, be it on the road or on the sea, or in the fight against the pagans, will be granted immediate forgiveness for their sins
As a side note, I love how Miquella is like "Oh I want a gentle rule" while Freyja is like "Yippee! Radahn will be resurrected for war and conquest!!!"
radahn would prob have to do some conquering before miq can bewitch everyone and there are those too powerful to have their heart stolen like I imagine astels couldn't be swayed along with you if you manage to avoid direct contact
I like that on messmers kindling, it confirms that Melina is his sister bc it talks about how his younger sister also had a vision of fire
Yeah, I thought about that too. Very subtle. There's also something up with her eye, similar to Messmer.
@@SleepyMatt-zzzGloom eyed Queen 👑 theory be cooking more everyday
It's kinda funny to me that as soon as we saw Messmer for the first time so many people just said "Nope, Melina isn't the child of Marika. The fire butterfly is clearly Messmer."
I still believed Melina was the fire butterfly and Marika's child, and low and behold, it was confirmed that she indeed is Marika's child and the fire butterfly since Messmer is the Black Pyrefly
@@simonjohnson3424 so you also noticed that the Black Pyrefly is connected to Messmer.
@@jacktheomnithere2127 kinda hard not to notice when the item description specifically mentions the guy
Everyone to Mohg before the DLC: *what a creepy little Mohg-lester....*
Everyone to Mohg after the DLC: *........................................sorry Mohg.*
Turns out Mohg was the one being Miquellested this whole time 😨😰
@@SteebenWeebendude these jokes aren’t funny.
@GonadsOfGodrey they are tho
there's a joke about cancel culture but I'm not making it
I can see it clear as day. The lord of blood beating the allegations. MOHGWYN!!!
I find it very interesting that the one statue of Marika we find in the dlc, that isn’t headless, is the one in Messmer’s chamber depicting her holding a baby Messmer. This observation coupled with Messmer consulting the aforementioned statue before plucking out his false eye goes to show that after all that transpired he still holds love for his mother.
Agreed!
That one line from Messmer where he curses his mother, made him one of the most interesting characters in all of Elden Ring. Just one line of dialogue changed how you viewed his character completely.
Not really. The ghosts around the place were hard setting that up.
@@Arcessitor idk dog I thought he was obsessed with her due to all the statues of her having their heads cut off, EXCEPT for his
"Fuck you, Mom." - Messmer
Everyone else in his army knew she had abandoned them, but he was in denial right to the end. Blind loyalty is a bitch.
I may be making a pretty bold claim here but I'll say that unlike Miquella, who mainly uses his powers to compel people into following him, Messmer inspires genuine loyalty from his followers without resorting to power or coercion despite seeming like a grim, sullen demigod who knows nothing but war and slaughter.
- Rellana renounced her royal title to swear fealty to him along with some Carian knights and sorcerers, becoming known as his loyal “Sword”.
- Commander Gaius is one of his close friends who leads his ground forces. Despite being an albinauric who would normally be shunned by the Golden Order, he remains loyal to Messmer and holds a high ranking and respected position.
- His Lordsworn soldiers and knights are devoted to him (With spirit of one going as far as being outraged that Marika has never embraced him). They've proven to be difficult enemies with many tricks up their sleeve, implying a level of training and discipline higher than even some knights in the Lands Between.
- The Fire Knights, his personal guard, came from Leyndell’s upper echelons and noble families. It's stated they didn't mind being ostracized and disowned by their noble families back in Leyndell if it meant being at their lord's side, and tried to put Messmer's flame into themselves, to show their unwavering support.
On top of all that, they did all of this knowing they’ll be shunned by society and erased from record with their deeds unsung and forced to wage an unending war without mercy or honor. They also have no real reason to stay in the Land of Shadow anymore. The Golden Order has collapsed, Queen Marika is imprisoned in the Erdtree and the Lands Between was ravaged in the Shattering, all before the Tarnished comes to kill any and all remaining demigods left. Messmer and his army could’ve deserted the Golden Order, splinter up and resort to banditry. Yet, even after all this time, Messmer’s army remained at their posts, unaware of the developments in the Lands Between, with little to no hint of any rebellion or mutiny aside from a few black knights who abandoned Messmer after discovering his “serpentine nature” and was imprisoned for it. Even after Messmer quashed their rebellion, he gave them an honorable burial and mourned for their loss.
I remember reading all that in various item descriptions and thinking, "Messmer sounds like a pretty decent person - at least without his crusade taken into account."
@@ALLMINDmercenarysupportsystem even with his crusade. He’s really just oppressing a group that kidnapped and killed his people, and we even see a hospital in the Shadow Keep being a place where the remains of him and Marika’s people are being treated with care.
Not justifying his actions at all, but he did it less out of malice, but more out of revenge. Other than that, he seems like a pretty reasonable lord
I kept thinking his soldier swore fealty to him similarly to Radahn.
Man I wish we could just sit and talk to some of these guys 😔
> They also have no real reason to stay in the Land of Shadow anymore.
How would they leave? Even after The Shattering, the Land of Shadow is still a prison, not easy to get to and not easy to escape.
Miquella abandoned fundamentalism because it coun't cure Malenia. And then dedicated his life to help her. That is why she is loyal to him and not because he charmed her. The same thing about Halightree. It was a safe heaven for misbegotten and albinauric. That is why they are there. Same thing with npc in dlc. After charm rune is broken most of the npc remain loyal to him.
Once I was finished with the DLC and the last boss was defeated, I put down my controller, took a long exhale, and said to myself: "Now to wait for SmoughTown."
"Can't wait to hear what the fuck that was all about! 🍿🤠"
When the dlc came out my first thought was I can’t wait for all the lore videos that will be out in a week or two
@@alexanderperez5636Exactly. 😂
Reading between the lines, I think we can assume that the hornsent were unkind to the Numen people living in the land of shadow, so Marika flipped the script, created a system that would empower herself and oppress the horned race that wiped out her tribe.
The fingers told Marika what she needed to hear, fed her desire for power and revenge, all the while setting themselves up as important oracles in Marika’s vengeful golden order.
Gets worse when you realize why she probably hated mohg and morgott she hated them because she didn't see them as mohg and morgott her sons she saw the as hornsent she saw them for there appearance and crucible power not as there own individuals
@@Actionzombie98 Also makes you wonder if that is why she began to reject Godfrey
@@zsaltz907 must have been since they clearly followed the crucible in some form and has a lion on his back.
"They were never saints. They just happened to be on the losing side of the war."
-Leda
One of my favourite quotes in the DLC. Marika and the Golden Order did plenty of horrific things to those related to the Crucible and other groups, but plenty of horrific things were done to Marika's people too. And then with the Shattering and beyond, many more horrible things were perpertrated.
It's a cycle, over and over again, and you can argue it just gets worse the further in you go. And even you could argue that Miquella's 'Age of Compassion' isn't even that, since he had basically abandoned everything pure of himself by that point, and with the mightiest demigod at his command you can be sure he would crush anyone that didn't follow the order.
A cycle moving forward also describes a spiral. Just a thought i had
@@cloroxusthestainlessone4324 Also the Elden Ring itself. Miquella's symbol was also a ring with his Circlet of Light, symbolizing it would've been more of the same.
Meanwhile Miquella "I'll make the world a gentler place" wellll we can't have that now, there'll be no Elden Ring 2. With his charm, he was the only one who could get people to work together: the Hornsent didn't even need the charm to fight alongside Leda in the final battle. Stupid shame we have to kill them.
@@cloroxusthestainlessone4324 Yes, that was what I meant, lol. Not sure why I put cycle, but you could look at the entire Dark Souls triology for examples of that.
I read Junji Ito's Uzumaki recently, where again, the spiral is key to everything.
@@CreativeUsernameEh Tbh if there's an Elden Ring 2 I don't think it can be in the Lands Between. I think we killed literally everyone on the continent who could wield a sword or cast a spell.
Visiting Bonny Village and Seeing how the Hornsent potentates would treat the Shamans.. and then making it to the Shaman’s village.. dear gosh the feels were hit.. it was all a story of an unending cycle of a broken Order being toppled and replaced by another broken one..
100% so poignant
I remember entering the shaman village and hearing the music and the golden braid made me realise this is where Marika was born, it was an incredible moment of revelation.
Perhaps the numens were from the shadow realm and not from space.
In the wise words of Naruto, the helix is a spiral that can move in three dimensions. I think what Smough meant when saying a spiral - he actually meant a helix. And like helixes, the symbol can be built up - and up - dynasties and civilizations stacking together, cycles of violence and peace forever striving towards something that may or may not exist
the music made me feel so sad
Didn't expect tranquility...
Therfore time for sadness
“I don’t care what they teach you at schools, the Crucible was a bird!”
The crucible is just what the hornsent called the Elden ring.
The real Crucible was the friends we made along the way.
@@mistakai4226 The crucible was before the elden ring
@@devastatheseeker9967 hence why they called it the crucible.
This would jive with Angel’s Egg a movie I’m sure From has seen
What I've really been contemplating is how the Miquella/Radahn info in the DLC impacts the lore of Castle Sol. I don't think Commander Niall's mission was anything to do with Godwyn in light of Miquella's wish, but I haven't seen anyone discussing the implications of this.
Almost as if the DLC's story was originally meant for Godwyn, and not for someone Miquella had expressed interest in literally once in the main game.
@@tibot4228 Yeah I got that feeling too in a way. It's said that Godwyn and Miquella were very close. It would have made a lot of sense. I personally thought that the barechest man with Golden hair we see grabbing a rune in the air was Godwyn back when it released since he looked adult and wore a grey skirt, something we saw Godwyn wear while being killed by the Black Knives. Miquella was always shown fully clothed and wearing seemingly white. I also thought Miquella wanted to be in the Land of Shadows because he was convinced he could do something for his brother there
I actually think it fits together very well. It is quite possible that Godwyn's soul was Miquella's first choice as the heroic lord, and when Castle Sol operation failed, he went for his 2nd best choice which is Radahn.
@@tibot4228 The DLC story wouldn't work for Godwyn at all, though. Godwyn's soul is destroyed, and his body is a monstrosity.
@@tibot4228yeah okay and so what did Malenia whisper in Radahn's ear in the first trailers? "You have nothing to do with Godwyn but I still want to tell you that he's gonna be Miquella's consort; however I still want to kill you for some reason"? The whole thing was set in place from the start (as Miyazaki confirmed in recent interviews), people just don't want to accept it cause it's not what they had thought
That minor erdtree incantation is FULL evidence that Melina is a daughter of Marika. She uses the same incantation in our fight with Morgot.
I think it also confirms my theory that to burn the erdtree with the Forge of the Giants, you need to have Giant’s blood running through your veins.
Yeah Radagon was a giant or half giant for sure, just fits with the Norse lore. He also hated his hair color, so yeah.
@@RegencyYarl I think the lore specifies that Radagon was cursed by the Giants with red hair, not that he was a giant or half-giant.
@@PWNINSWAGMASTERor have the burning flames of frenzy to force it too
@@stephenjenkins7971 the fire giant whip states Radagon hated his hair and that that was the curse of their kind.
The new Pot lore is still terrifying. I still remember the first time I saw them outside of their pots.
I think these pots are different from the ones we know. The ones we know have dead dudes in them
@@jstar3382 Yeah, at least the Golden Order massively toned down the grossness of that. The Pots in their control just have regular dead bodies; not living beings fused together.
@@stephenjenkins7971 But it makes one wonder why Marika would sanction such a practice in the Lands Between if it is reminiscent of a very traumatic personal experience for her.
@@VictorIV0310She changed the culture. Marika turned it from gruesome sacrifices into a commendable practice. She's making peace with her past by turning the pots into a symbol of wholesomeness, not torture.
@VictorIV0310 In the Shadow Keep there is what looks like a hospital filled with Jars and their innards. I don't think Marika hated the Jars, but instead wanted to save them. The practice of Jars in the Lands Between also uses regular dead bodies instead of bringing living beings together. Perhaps it's her own way of honoring her people? 🤔
The biggest piece of evidence for me beside's Messmer's kindling eluding to the fact that he and Melina are related is the fact that both of them have their left eye closed.
Also if you look at Melinas eyes in the Frenzy Flame ending; her right eye that was gold is now a pale white, almost as if a gold lens has fallen off?
Could Messmer also be the one who burned Melinas body? Perhaps on the order of Marika herself for Melinas rebellion for seeking to put the gods to the sword as the Gloam Eyed Queen?
So many questions!!
And both have a curse sealed within their eye
@@itzamedio5427 We know that the GEQ perished in Maliketh's black flame, did she not?
@@tibot4228either From screwed up with their own lore and Melina shouldn’t be able to contact us cause I assume what she is now is akin to a soul, or he didn’t kill her with with destined death maybe he stabbed her for the killing blow? Which would be weird for him to do. They completely dropped the ball not doing anything with her character
That you will never get an answer to because eff you says fromsoft. @@itzamedio5427
I think the ancient spiral symbology is meant to represent the natural cycles of life and death. When Marika, traumatized by the death of her people, became a God and finished exacting her revenge, she removed the Rune of Death and created a new divine tree that is a single shoot rather than the helical spiral we see with the Scadutree. Life and death became one under her order, per Erdtree burials. Then she hid the Scadutree and all the death associated with the Land of Shadow to create her perfect kingdom.
I think the statues suggest that the Erdtree was cultivated from the Crucible (one branch rising out of the others). That's why Omen continue to pop up; no matter how much Marika wants to replace the era of the Crucible, her divine tree came from it and she can't escape its influence. She and Godfrey themselves even came from the Crucible era, hence their Omen children.
I don't really think you're lost in the sauce when talking about The Crucible. You didn't mention him in this video but Ymir honestly has some great insights when it comes to not only The Greater Will, but the Crucible and what the relationship may be between the two. Through doing Ymir's questline (disregarding his own "lost in the sauce" nature obsessing over the fingers), he has dialogue that implies/confirms that The Greater Will is more so a moment in time than a genuine force or god of the universe. He also talks of how The Greater Will would had to have created all life, as all life does indeed hold a piece of the Will inside of them.
But looking at everything to do with the Hornsent, they say that it was The Crucible that did all of the above instead. Furthermore, they too almost view it as a moment in time rather than a traditional God/Force as we would think of it. So obviously it can't be that both are true; that they are essentially two separate "Big Bangs" that helped create the ER universe. I think, much how you said with the Hornsent and the Crucible knights + Crucible, that the two are one in the same. That The Greater Will is nothing but a different interpretation of the Crucible, one of Order and the power that comes from it.
Furthermore, it entirely makes more sense why Ymir would say that the Order was flawed from the start. Though he only relates it to the fingers and them supposedly "communing" with the Will, he's quite literally correct when we look at HOW Marika created the Order. Through her crusade, she pilled countless bodies atop Bellurat to "call upon the gods". Whether or not she created the gate with the bodies I can't say, but regardless she did use the Hornsent as a sacrifice. And remembering how ALL LIFE has a piece of the Will inside of them (at this point though, it would mainly be viewed as the Crucible/raw power) I would conclude what Marika pulls from that flesh in the cutscene was just the coalesced power of countless hornsent. She would then take this power, and then use the gateway to "Call upon the Elden Beast" and thus forming The Golden Order and establishing The Greater Will. The Greater Will is nothing more than the perspective, the wish of order if you will, that Marika has for the world and wants to force upon it.
A "small" addition to the point of Crucible = Greater Will = Beginning of time, is pretty much the entirety of Shaman Village. By looking at the enviornment (untouched by war/undamage, reclaimed by nature, ancient in appearance) and the items within (mainly Minor Erdtree), we learn that Marika was indeed a ""miraculous birth". She was born during the Age of Hornsent and the Crucible to a small group of people that believed in the coming of a new god (see Ghost that is close by in Hinterlands). Before even forming the Golden Order, she seemingly was already eternal. 'Minor Erdtree' talks of how Marika cast the spell "knowing full well there was no one left to heal". She seemingly outlived everyone within her village, and 'Minor Erdtree' was not only just her form of grieving...it was unknowlingly her first act of defiance against The Age of Crucible. As she would then go over to the statue of her grandmother (with Ymir's quest, one could infer she somehow didn't have a mom. That's a stretch tho, don't hold me to it. Postulating based on how much overlapping symbolism there is), and then casting off her braid while making an unknown wish. BUT based on how during this time the BRAID-THE SPIRAL- would be a direct symbol of the age she was born off, and infering a certain level of rage that would come with being born a god and watching all your loved ones die without true guidance...I would guess that she simply wished of the end of the Age of Crucible.
Lastly, I do want to bring up Bonny Village. It being so close to Shaman, and Bonny itself having to do with pots. Pots within ER basically being; an entity formed by taking the essance of multiple people/entities, and shoving that essance within the pot.....I can't help but find some similarity between this hand how Marika created The Order. I genuinely believe this small yet judicial village had a massive impact on just how Marika viewed the world and operated after reaching true godhood.
Sorry for yapping, I just love this game and have been going crazy over all the new item descriptions
This is not yapping my friend this is the definition of cooking i love the interpretation that the elden beast as we know it is what seeded life in the first place and that those are all just the interpretations of people at the time
I love this! I've been having trouble justifying how the Finger Mother landed down before the Elden Beast, but the "two big bangs" comment just clicked a TON of pieces into place for me! The first big bang would be "the one grate" described by Hyetta, which created the empty foundation the world would be built upon. I'm getting into a bit of speculation but this may be the "base" invoked by Mesmer's "base serpent" which does seem fitting as a giant abyssal creature.
Now here's the real bombshell... The one grate was NOT an act of the Greater Will, but some even greater force of the universe. The Greater Will is an outer god like any other, and Metyr was its scout who landed in this void and began populating it with fingers who transmit to the Greater Will, eventually leading to the second big bang (or as Hyetta calls it, the Mistake) the Elden Beast/Elden Ring is sent to establish order and begin populating the world with life. Notably this is when the Greater Will cuts its connection to the Lands Between, having already done its job of establishing what it sees as a self-sufficient order. So begins the generations-long game of telephone between the fingers and finger-readers that would eventually mislead Marika into seeking ascension. I actually love this characterization of religion as an agnostic who thinks if there is a god then systems like evolution were designed as a means for them to be hands-off and move on to other projects.
This also explains the intent of the Frenzied Flame, to return the Lands Between to its base state as a lifeless void. The Frenzied flame almost seems like the universe's immune system causing a fever in trying to sweat out the influence of the Greater Will. I'm buzzing with thoughts but this is getting way too long so I'll just go make another comment and shout you out.
One small thing I want to mention regarding your comment:
I believe Marika returned to the Shaman Village *after* the genocide of her people at the hands of the Hornsent, and *after* she became a God. When the Minor Erdtree mentions there being "nobody left to heal", I think it's referring to the fact that Marika is the sole survivor of the Hornsent turning the shamans into pots. She returned home after ascending the tower and becoming divine. As one final offering to her dead people, she leaves a Minor Erdtree as perhaps a form of consolation to herself, and she leaves a gold braid of hair behind as an affirmation of a vow or promise.
Marika never returned home again.
@@partydeer1640 The Golden Braid specifically says after cutting it off, that is when she didn't return home. If she truly had disdain for the Hornsent, I don't think it makes a lot of sense that she would parade around their symbol during the crusade only to then cast it off after reaching godhood. Also keeping in mind the actual symbols of the crusade, that being The fire and serpent found on Messmer's flag. Especially considering how base game items reference braids AT ONE POINT being a symbol of divinity, it makes a lot more sense to me that she would cast it off before the crusade as a true show of where she stands.
I'm guessing you also just watched Vaati's video, and I genuinely don't think he has the timeline quite correct. Yes, I can concede that the Hornsent may have even killed off some of the Numen in Shaman. But I do genuinely believe Marika was just the last to survive. And if you want to be very specific, the Golden Braid is very vague and simply says "Home". Not "homeland" or even specifically "the Shadow Lands", just simply "home".
And getting into another part of the Golden Braid, it says Marika made a "prayer, or wish, or confession". If Marika truly was born already with godlike power, which many items do say, I think it makes sense to say that even while young she would have great impact without truly realizing. Ask yourself this; What do both Messmer and Melina represent individually? Messmer, "the Abyssal Snake", fire always been a part of him, the Champion of the Crusade, even harboring hatred towards Marika that required an eye of grace to quell (Marika being born from Crucible power, the hatred could have been for the power that was within her). And Melina, even disregarded the theory/possibility of her being the Gloam Eyed Queen; she also viewed the same vision of fire that Messmer had. She ultimately helped with the burning of The Erdtree, which is essentially The Crucible in a different form (think the whole pot imagery in Bonny and how Erdtree was formed). I would genuinely argue that Marika's prayer, wish, confession (as all terms must be true); She hated the Crucible, the same power that granted her even the possibility for godhood, and wished for it's death in the hopes (prayer part) for a new god/order. Messmer and Melina, simply, embodied Marika's very wishes and prayers.
and to connect the last two monstrosity of points (my fault og, I'm a yapper lol); it would make no sense for Marika to have her braid at the time of Messmer's birth when he was given an eye of Grace (symbol of Marika). Once again, she would not be parading around and embodying her old symbol while at the same time holding power over her new one. Miguella himself had to give himself a new symbol when destroying his old rune. It makes sense Marika would have to do the same on her crusade to godhood
Anyone else think the "Spiral" pattern of the crucible is meant to represent DNA?
The crucible, after all, is meant to represent the primordial source of life.
This is actually a huge connection.
Of course, its represents death too. Life and death.
"Why is it everything in spira seems to revolve around people, dieing?"-tidus
"Ah, the spiral of death"-auron
Gotta have a shadowtree to prop up and support the tree of life. Life must die to evolve.
This is a fire comment
It is spiral energy
It was always suspicious how all the spiral symbolism was like DNA and I'd people mention it before, but there was never enough evidence for it to seem more that wild speculation to me. But now knowing the Crucible is a current like the primeval current but related to life rather than fate, it definitely symbolically represents DNA.
I was in bed and just received the notification, I bolted to my computer to watch this. I've been waiting for this since the DLC came out
Same. So early 😂❤
Hahah - really appreciate that! Hope you enjoy
Haha so was I only differenceis I'm still in bed watching this on my phone thanks smough 😂
I was thinking the same thing than I saw this comment
Same!!!
Another fun note about the overlaying of the maps; The Erdtree sits right on top of a finger ruin. The one in which we find Metyr.
100% very compelling
The scadu tree seems to arc in a circular motion around the erd tree. Perhaps before the realm shattered and separated the scadu tree use to wrap around the erd tree like a spiral perfectly coinciding with the spiral imagery .
@@-EndlessHorizon 100% agree! I've been staring at the scadutree when taking final boss breaks since that grace has a great view. It looks very much like the scadutree is the twisting trunk and the straight trunk is the erdtree. Phantom erdtree branches arise only from the straight trunk's canopy, and it also seems to be the one trunk that is oozing gold. The warped wrapping reminds me of the self-mutilating twisting growth of Mohg's horns, with the Scadutree having pierced the Erdtree causing the oozing we see.
From Scadutree Base it also seems clear the Scadutree begins from two intertwining trunks that are then twisted around the listing Erdtree, which originates far from the Scadutree base. The Hinterlands also gives a view that indicates it may be a great twisting with many origin points, perhaps better representing the Crucible. All thi may be representative of Marika's attempt to suborn the Crucible in creating Order. Straightening one arm of the Spiral and veiling the discarded half seems extremely potent imagery for Marika, and also relevant to the themes of Miquella.
An interesting idea I thought of, is the idea that the reason why Radahn is holding back the stars, was not to save others from a potential threat that the stars might bring upon the lands between, but to instead halt HIS OWN FATE of becoming Miquella's consort. I know a theory people had of why Radahn holds back the stars is because the stars couldve destroyed the town he learned gravity magic from. But why keep holding the stars back even after Malenia nuked Caleid? He mustve known everything would be destroyed anyways. But he keeps holding them back. Not for the town or for Ranni, but to halt his own fate. To spare himself what he believes would be a humilation by becoming consort to Miquella. To stop Miquellas plans of bringing about a new age.
Freyja reinforces a specific characteristic about Radahn that the fan base have been having for years. She says that Radahn does not woship death, nor does he worship change. And unlike Jerren, she believes that Radahn wants to live life eternally and continue fighting conquests.
The reason why it’s important is that explains why he changes his mind on Miquellas promise. Radahn’s very essence reflects the idea of stagnation. He was apart of the Golden Order. I think he agreed to become Miquella’s consort while Marika, and the Elden Ring, still remained untouched and unharmed... BUT, once Marika shattered the Elden Ring, and Radahn’s very Order, he took it upon himself to try his best to KEEP that order alive. He arrested his own fate because he knew that, since Marika shattered the Elden Ring, his betrothal to Miquella would take shape of an Age OUTSIDE the Golden Order. And since Radahn wishes for no change, he arrests his fate.
Miquella and Radahn made that vow under the safety of the Golden Order. Once the Golden Order was shattered, both had different outlooks on whether or not the Golden Order should be changed/surpassed. Perhaps the contents of Miquella’s Vow also changed, on his behalf. Perhaps, initially Miquella intended to have a normal Betrothal, but when Marika shattered the Elden Ring, MIQUELLA had a change of plans and decided to enact their “vow” under the pretence or a NEW order. Something that may‘ even been not agreed upon initially. It’s why Malenia was sent to sacrifice Radahns soul, with his change of heart.
GEOFF!! Big theory re: marika's origin. Very interesting regarding the term "invaders" used by the hornsent to describe the shaman, which implies that they were from another place.. Echoing this, we see a number of large ships on the cerulean coast that echo the architecture of the eternal cities, even including glovewort, which has an association with them as well. In addition, at the ship on the westernmost coast, there is a fight with the demi-human queen "Marigga." Along with the language "first set foot," this would seem to support that she disembarked one of these vessels, first setting foot in this world via the cerulean coast before moving on to settle in the locations where we find the gaols (including charo's grave nearby), and the shaman village. Using the language "first set foot" rather than calling it her home or where she was born confers some ambiguity that i think lends itself to this interpretation. After settling these various locations, the shaman/numen eventually became victims of the hornsent's genocide, being marked as "invaders" from another world with potentiallly heretical practices.
I agree. I think Marika’s people (Numens) traveled to the Lands Between from afar. And then, a small section of the Numens (Shamans) who were Marika’s CLOSEST peoples (family, even??) were then sacrificed as being seen as foreigners, to further the Hornsent’s cycle of life within their worship of the Divine Crucible. All life blended together. We see this practice all over Enir Ilm, where the trees, towering spires, and the divine gate, are all made up of Bodies offered up as sacrifice by the Hornsent.
It seems like the Hornsent culturally, and willingly, sacrificed themselves to the Divine Crucible. But they also had UNwilling subjects that they saw as foreigners too (Marika and Messmer’s closest people)
"Across the fog, the lands between" in the intro is a bit undertranslated-
Its closer to "Across the [sea of fog] in the [land of rifts]"
Its meant to imply the land could possibly be traveled to by boats, and possibly only through dieing, and the place being a reincarnating afterlife---
A common japanese theme of crossing the ocean being equivalent to dieing. Like crossing the river styx, or the river of life in european cultures.
I assume the ships are meant to say "here is where the history lies, now translated only into culture and mythology by the current inhabitants"
Oh and yeah, the example of the tower pretty much confirming that, even though it was obvious, by the place basically being valhalla for the tarnished.
"The very center of the lands between. All manners of death wash up here, only to be suppressed."
those aren’t ships they’re called coffins many times
Ps, Godfrey's axe has an octopus/squid on it, implying there's literally a kraken in the sea of fog 🐙
There is a chance that the Numen Are nomads that seemingly moved from one place to another with them having might have stopped at land of shadows/Hornsent realm and another in the Lands between possibly both groups with marika being from the group that went to the Hornsent’s realm
I don't think the statue we get O Mother from, the same statue in the hollowed tree, is meant to be Marika. I think it's meant to be a young version of The Grandmother of the Shamans, possibly a leader figure of their entire group. Marika has always been depicted as fairly full figured, and the figure of this statue is withered, thin, and frail. The other headless statues of Marika in the DLC don't have that withered, thin depiction either. That's just my assumption anyway.
Think is a good shout tbh and something I will revise in later videos!
@@SmoughTown Yeah, I'm not 100% sure on it, but Ymir's dialogue places blame on the mother of the fingers for the actions of the fingers, but he also mentions Marika in that statement, possibly implying the Marika's own mother figure as Marika's original motivator, maybe the "Grandmother".
Yes, my first inclination was that the statue couldn't be marika.
Perhaps this grandmother in the tree is where marika learned the magic that led to the erdtree?
I wonder, was her "first sin " her sacrificing the villagers for her ascension?
Surely she wouldn't feel the need to hide her war against the hornsent that mistreated her people. That doesn't seem to be the shameful act that she feels the need to hide, it's something the marika of the base game would build a church for and brag about.
I agree that it's not Marika but I'm wondering if her iconography (specifically the pose Marika is normally depicted in) is actually an inheritance of her people, or perhaps specifically the Grandmother specifically.
The statue looks a lot like Radagon. In other words, Marika
Appreciate you taking the dive and being the first big lore guy to make an in depth vid on the lore of the DLC
Thanks Jacob!
One major spiral design from the base game is the Elden Stars which would explain why the Hornsent are venerating that shape, and having the reference of the "golden Crucible" could imply that the Golden Star was the thing that became the Crucible.
An another observation is that the omens are probably not Hornsent, they are likely the resoult of a curse by the Hornsent.
Near the schorched ruins there is a ghost who says that she will forge a curse on Marik's children out of the resentment of the dead.
The omens are also haunted by evil spirits and those spirits look like a horned face according to the omen smirk mask. We can also see them having nightmares while they are sleeping and I doubt the Hornsent having the same issues. (The Gandam can doze off seemingly peacfully)
The Omen bairn calls the Omen curse born, while the Horned Bairn doesn't mention any curse and it is depicted having horns only on it's head while the omens are having horns all over theit bodies. Similarly all other animals in the land of shadow have horns only on their heads.
Yup. Even more believable when you consider that Hornsent culture revolves around spiritual ascetics. To many extremes, they vitalise the spirits of their dead kin to birth it into new life. They even forbade the Abyssal Woods because the Frenzied Flame is the very thing that can kill spirits.
So it’s very believable to assume that the Hornsent’s most divine placed a demonic curse upon the age of the new order. Marika’s new age hinges on the very thing that the Hornsent sacrifice spirits to - the great tree. Marika failed to completely rid the previous era of everything, so it came back to haunt her through the Erdtree
@@Scadu_Orhyn Really like your comment, I think you're spot on about the Hornset, they appear very divine and religious but are also pretty gruesome, violent, needlessly cruel in their punishments and sacrifices are a big thing in their culture, all the trees in Enir Ilim have people in them, sort of reminiscent to the great tree roots (tho in Enir Ilim the bodies are located in the trunk of the trees, and also appear to be mostly female) and most important of all their Gate of Divinity is filled to the brim with corpses, corpses with horns.
For why the Shamans were persecuted, my guess is that they likely didn’t have horns or any other indications of the Crucible on their bodies.
Looking at Marika we can see that she doesn’t have any horns and it’s more likely than not that the omens are persecuted in her order because they remind her of the hornsent. If her people also had horns then her hatred would be towards the hornsent as a people and not towards anything containing horns as well.
As for the brand on the forehead, I have no idea what it means but I do think that it’s where Marika’s iconic pose cones from. It sorta looks like her pose and rune but with extra lines added on. I think she might have chosen it as her symbol as an act of defiance. Taking this symbol of persecution and turning it into a symbol of strength.
i would agree, however Midras manse contradicts this. He's referred to as "The Great Midra", ghost hornsent npcs refer to the inquisitors(also hornsent) as their brethren, and Midra and Nanaya have no horns to be seen anywhere on them.
@@Shtummyyy That’s certainly a good point and I concede that it may very well be the case that Marika’s people were persecuted for different reasons, however I also think that it may be a case similar to the ancient dragons or the Carians for the Golden Order where the other factions was simply too powerful/useful to destroy and so was rather incorporated into the ruling order.
Pretty ironic that two of his children grew horns at their birth
It is said in an item description that Shaman flesh blend well with others, I don't think they were hunted by hate, but because it was needed to perform pot ritual
@@ribvra Right, I forgot about that. That’s probably it then. Thanks for that.
Another idea is that if the land of shadow is in fact at the center of the lands between and is merely obscured by the veil; then the divine towers may be the anchor points on which the veil is anchored. The Scadutree being the central pillar. The tree and towers acting almost like a tent structure for the land of shadow.
It wouldn’t fit perfectly, but a lot of things do line up with the map from the base game. I think this is true but in a more fantastical sense.
suppressing tower is the center
bro you are a genius,this would be incredible,however,the scadutree was said to be born at the same time with the erdtree since the scadutree is the "shadow of the erdtree"
this is absoltely genius
@@ll-ll5gtI’m looking at the map and they do line up pretty well. A big pointer if it’s the “shadow of the erdtree” is the fact that the place it would go on the map is directly under leyndel. There’s also a big ass island in the original map in the middle of the sea, which is exactly where the shadow tree is in the shadow map.
I got thinking, every child of the Marika/Radagon union have some sort of affliction of at least one eye: Melina has the seemingly Gloam Eye, Mesmer's was afflicted with Marika's rune or lense, Mogh has a horn growing into the eye, Morgott has a horn in his eye, Malenia has rot that destroyed her eyes, and we never see Miquella pre-body dump in SoTE to confirm he he had something similar, or if he possibly used his un-alloyed gold to remove any influence or some such (we do only see the one cross saying he discarded an eye, and Ansbach references just a singular Eye). Even Ranni has something up with one eye, and almost all pictures of Rykard show something off with one eye, and the serpent ate one of his eyes in the base game intro cinematic. I do wonder if Marika did what she did to Mesmer, to any of her other kids.
Cool detail that occurred to me: you have to kill both Mohg and Radahn to enter the Land of Shadow, thus you can only get there after collecting two Great Runes and gaining the right to become Elden Lord.
Also, a thought regarding St. Trina: Miquella appearing to call her 'my love' may mean that, rather than her embodying his love and attachment, that they share a relationship similar to that of Marika and Radagon, i.e. that Miquella is in love with her. His abandoning of St. Trina may not only be part of shedding his connections to the old order, but he may have felt was necessary to 'make room' for Radahn to be his consort. It makes me wonder if this may also be part of why Marika physically separated herself from Radagon and sent him to fight the wars in Liurnia-- she had chosen Godfrey to be her Elden Lord, needed his strength and his battle prowess, and thus Radagon had to go, especially if they already had children together. Radagon is noted as having aspired to be complete, and it makes me wonder if there's some inherent pull between the two personas-- that once they become separate identities, they feel an innate need to be together so as to be complete.
The idea that a Lord must be present for a god to ascend is interesting, since it begs the question: which Lord was present when Marika became a god? Was it Godfrey? Or, if Mesmer and Melina truly are the first generation of demigods, born to Marika and Radagon, did Radagon fill that role? Since St. Trina exists as a part of Miquella when he's still just an Empyrean and not a god, I think Radagon could have also existed before Marika became a god, though maybe he only gained a body of his own upon her ascension. Maybe, similar to how Miquella used Mohg's body as a vessel for Radahn's soul, someone else's body (maybe the person who Marika 'seduced' and killed) was used as a vessel for Radagon? That raises the possibility that, since the resurrected Radahn still carries traces of Mohg, Radagon might similarly show some characteristics of that person. What immeadiately jumps to mind is Radagon's red hair, which we know he despised, possibly because of some connection to the giants. Maybe the original owner of his body was a giant, or in some way related to them? If that person was also the god or Lord of the Hornsent, that would certainly add an interesting dimension to the giants' faces and the visage of the Fell God being used on the Furnace Golems.
I would push back slightly on the assertion that Mesmer's crusade took place after the banishing of Godfrey and the Tarnished. As I understand it, once Godfrey was banished, Radagon immediately left Rennala to take his place as Elden Lord, thus breaking her heart and leaving her as the shell of her former self we see in-game, which doesn't really mesh well with the description of Rennala giving Rellana her blessing and gift, which to me sounds much more like Rennala in her prime, i.e. before Radagon left her. I think considering things and people from the Lands Between keep showing up in the Land of Shadows, it's entirely possible for Mesmer to have learned of the Tarnished after he was stranded in the Land of Shadows.
1:33:51 I like to believe when he praises his "loyal blade" he's referring to Malenia instead of Leda. Despite the obvious with her being the Blade of Miquella, she was the one who started the process of bringing back Radahn as Miquella's consort by infecting him with Scarlet Rot, which results in Jerren starting the Festival of Radahn to finally give him a warrior's death, which eventually (knowingly or not) finishes what the loyal Blade of Miquella started at the end of the Shattering. Which explains why he says how his "loyal blade" and "champion of the festival" shall forever be praised in song in his new Age of Compassion he seeks to bring with Radahn as his consort.
I think I got it figured out, guys.
There used to be one single tree, the one depicted in crucible imagery and in Placidusax’s boss fight arena. Upon becoming god via the mechanism of the Divine Gate, Marika had her then-youngest child, Melina, burn the Crucible Great tree, and via some other mechanism (god power lol) literally inverted the area of Shadow Realm, including the charred remains of the Crucible tree (Scadu tree looks charred). Then, by re-arranging the runes of the Elden Ring Marika created the Golden Order (of runes in the Elden Ring), which created the golden (spirit) Erdtree, having the Scadutree as its roots (i.e., charred remains of the previous great tree).
I feel, somehow, the reason for the crusade wasn’t just vengeance, but rather that the endless rebirths of the Golden Order are ”paid for” by the never-ending slaughter in the Shadow Realm. Also, the Erdtree root system, which is the Scadutree, rebirths (or at least used to until the Elden Ring was shattered) things accepted by Golden Order back to the Lands Between, and the things rejected by it to the Shadow Realm, hence what we see therein.
Furthermore, the great sin referenced in multiple places is likely the act of burning the former Crucible Great Tree to create the Scadutree and/or the slaughter of the inhabitants of the Shadow Realm to ’feed’ the Golden Order. The roots ’feed’ a tree, the same is occurring here.
I haven’t watched the video yet, but I really hope you touch in on Miquella’s curse of eternal childhood and how that plays into his naivety and almost blissful ignorance in his plan to becoming a god wishing for an age of compassion without cruelty or oppression.
It’s always been such a heavy focus on how this affects him physically and plays into his ability to charm others through an innocent image, but rarely have we ever actually talked about how this affects him mentally, how his mental maturity is quite literally cursed to forever be underdeveloped and this is no clearer than when you look at how all of his plans, present and previous end in a state of incompleteness dooming them to fail. It all mirrors his own curse.
Miquella really is just as tragic a character as any other in the game
One key clarification - the guidance of grace actually appears before you kill messmer. It first appears when you kill the divine dragon lion beast boss, and is pointing you towards messmer in the shadow keep.
much appreciated!
Oh snap good eye I hadn't noticed
I’m simmering on an interpretation that Miquella’s enchantment/bewitching might not even be always by choice and part of his “affliction”. In the same way Malenia can spread rot and “infect” people, maybe Miquella (at least at times) couldn’t help that people were charmed by him. Maybe only later did he start using it for his own purposes.
I think it’s a fair interpretation. An extra downside to being an empyrean.
Naw its his ability.
Thats why his rune shattering broke it for people.
He controls and is abusive with it, even his spell tells you from his remembrance he normally charms everyone but was rejected by one, which more than likely made him go nuts and do what he did to get his way.
@@JJJ42069 the one not charmed by Miquella is the tarnished...
@@hamjime More likely Radahn, Miquella doesnt know us yet, he has to charm you in person, at least everyone whos charmed by him did meet him at least once, so I thought.
I'm wondering if Radahn holding back the stars was a way of him resisting Miquella's influence? Can't have your fate changed if your fate never moves 🤔 We dont really see any other characters meaningfully resist Miquella's embrace, and I think it explains why Radahn had to die and be resurrected
On the subject of Melina and Messmer and Melina being the Gloam-Eyed Queen, I find it super interesting how Melina seems connected to Marika's past and the Land of Shadows. Not only does she have the Minor Erdtree incantation, but the Godslayer's Greatsword, a weapon meant to slay divinities, is a spiral. Furthermore, the godskin nobles have serpentine aspects that are tied to the Crucible, and one can be found defending the Church of Eiglay in Volcano Manor which could tie into Melina and Messmer's relationship as siblings if Messmer's abyssal serpent is connected to the serpent god that devoured Rykard and their similar connections to a blasphemous fire. The Black Flame of Destined Death was also originally more crimson in hue as we see when Maliketh wields it, and in that state it is *much* more similar to Messmer's fire, further showcasing their similarity as siblings!
I'm glad you're continuing to advocate for GEQ Melina in your theories, it just gives her so much more fascinating depth that she really deserves as a character :D
What I really love about the dlc is how much it changed my perspective on Marika. I honestly thought she was just evil but knowing what the Hornsent did to her people really puts a perspective on things.
I understand why she put Mohg and Morgott in the sewer. Quite frankly the fact she didnt cut of their horns just shows me that there might have been a small part pf her that still loved them.
Does it though? She did the same thing when she became god. Her little Erdtrees are surrounded by pots, there's a giant one in Caelid, she is very much so an evil goddess.
@@CreativeUsernameEhI'm pretty sure the pot in the land between simply collect dead body like Alexander did to radahn and they aren't filled with... The abomination created by hornesent
She commited genocide against the giants caused multiple wars with multiple types of people, shunned and exiled large groups of people for being different and not following her beliefs, she is a wrathful god nothing can justify what she does after what happens to her
@@user-op6kt8pg9y The fact people jump to protect her and say she's justified is fucking mentally insane.
@@ArnveldYour using modern morality to judge an ancient culture. By modern Western standards all the different cultures we see in the game are evil and most of the things they do 'cannot be justified'. It's pointless to use modern standards of conduct to judge these various parties because it gives the same final judgement on them. So it is pointless to use modern standards at all when discussing them.
I don't think the statue inside the tree in Shaman Village is a statue of Marika, but is instead "The Grandmother" that Marika offered her braid to, which is why we find the braid here and not in Belurat, with the Empyrean Grandam. The braid says that there is no one left to answer, so I believe that The Grandmother of Shaman Village and the Empyrean Grandam of Belurat were two different people with similar roles; One of them a Shaman, who we find inside the tree with the braid, and the other a Hornsent, who we meet in Belurat and would be able to tell someone what Marika's offering was for, if the offering was indeed made to her.
I've been staring at the Scadutree when taking final boss breaks since that grace has a great view. It looks very much like the Scadutree is the twisting trunk and the straight trunk is the Erdtree. The Sealing Tree seeming to be a simulacra of the Scadutree alone supports this, I believe. I'll discuss this twinned tree thusly in this post.
Phantom Erdtree branches arise only from the straight trunk's canopy, and it also seems to be the one trunk that is oozing gold. The map art bears this out as well, to the point I'm surprised I haven't seen it discussed yet. There are also the veils that directly mimic the veils in Marika's Bedchamber, connecting at the canopy of the Erdtree here, and at the center of the ceiling in that room. The locations of these don't seem to cleanly align with either the divine towers or Marika's Bedchamber, though I still like the theory that the Divine Towers are involved in the sealing. From the three primary vantage points of Divine Gate Front, Suppressing Pillar, and Jagged Peak Mountainside, the veils never quite line up just right. The Jagged Peak section also provides a stunning view of the silvery Phantom Erdtree branching. If overlapping the maps, I believe based on this that you must overlap them at the actual Erdtree/Scadutree base.
The warped wrapping reminds me of the self-mutilating twisting growth of Mohg's horns, with the Scadutree having pierced the Erdtree causing the oozing we see. This could be an indication of the resistance of the Crucible to being straightened or confined by Order, with the chaotic growth turning on the unnatural order imposed on it. Alternatively, this could be a representation of the metaphysical entanglement of God and Tree, and the oozing either coming from Marika's wounds after the shattering or from her psychic injuries that lead to her pursuing godhood, representing the inherently damaged nature of the Erdtree Order and mirroring the brokenness of Metyr.
From Scadutree Base it also seems clear the Scadutree begins from intertwining trunks that form a singular trunk that is then twisted around the listing Erdtree, which originates far from the Scadutree base. The Hinterlands also gives a view that indicates it may be a great twisting with many origin points, perhaps better representing the Crucible. This Scadutree also branches several times along the trunk, while the Erdtree does not. All this may be representative of Marika's attempt to suborn the Crucible in creating Order, perhaps both trees were twisted and intertwining before her involvement. Whether this was as a literal paired, intertwined spiral tree or a Crucible Current manifested into these trees isn't super important here. Straightening one arm of the Spiral and veiling the discarded half seems extremely potent imagery for Marika, and also relevant to the themes of Miquella.
Depending on how this is interpreted, it could have major implications for the Crucible, Marika's ascension, the Erdtree origin, the metaphysics of twinning, shadows, and spirals, and the timeline of the veiling of the Land of Shadow. I'd love to hear more diverse thoughts and takes on the twinned tree, how it came about and if these parts are indeed connected, but I think this is a good starting point for theorizing.
Edits for formatting and clarity.
Thank goodness for you and a few other channels out there. As much as I LOVE these games, I would have no idea what’s going on story wise without you guys.
Too kind - so grateful to have your support!
So, Mohg wasn't a creep? He was being used by his half brother. And Miquella was using us to kill Mohg so he could use his corpse to resurrect Radahn?
Yup!
The most GRRM writing style ngl
Personally, I still think he’d be a massive creep without Miquella
@@threemeters1425 I'm currently of the opinion that Miquella's compulsion of Mohg was more akin to subtle suggestions slowly feeding the victim with temptation until they end up already walking the path of their own volition and not just straight-up brainwashing unless it needs to be. Kinda reminds me of the Laer Blade tempting the Primarch Fulgrim of the Emperor's Children from the Horus Heresy series of Warhammer 40,000.
@@VictorIV0310 It was brainwashing though. Ansbach himself says it.
That he even tried to stop Miquella after he bewitched Mohg, and got bewitched himself.
The "statue" in Marika's village isn't a statue. It looks like the mummified remains of a numan women, likely referring to "The Grandmother". We see many mummified people, hornsent and otherwise, in places of sacred significance to their people. We get the spirit ashes upgrade from mummified Hornsent.
There's also an irl practice where monks would basically mummify themselves alive so maybe the Devs were inspired by that.
I agree
That's a legend, not an actual practice.
@@ArcessitorIt was an actual practice from 1081 to 1903, and apparently the Meji government even outlawed it in 1877, which didn't stop at least one Monk named Bukkai. His and 9 other mummies are historically recorded as well.
@@sebastianb.3978nice detail
I find it quite interesting that Marika adopted symbols associated with Hornsent inquisition as sings of divinity: shape similar to rune arc was interpreted as barbs used in interrogation in Hornsent society, and color gold was generally a color of punishment devices, such as the sword Midra was impaled with. This only strengthens her association with christian symbolism
Now knowing what the Greater Potentates’ job was in Bonny village gives a whole different meaning to why the little jar of Jarburg wanted someone with soft hands…
It also makes the story of the living jars even more deeply tragic. They don’t know what horrors their kind were born from - they just want to live and grow their flowers. But to Marika and her perfumers they must represent something far more disturbing.
''The first significant evolutionary radiation of life on land occurred during the Devonian'' -Wikipedia page on the Devonian Era.
Devonia is the longest serving of the Crucible knights. I love this symbolism.
Yeh true - alongside 'Siluria'
@@SmoughTownone of the Crucible knight duo is also named. Ordovis after the Ordovian period
I think Gate of Divinity works by absorbing and gathering the runes of those that are sacrificed to it. Considering it's built from corpses and we see it's literally full of blood in the story trailer. It's a massive human sacrifice, which allows to create a massive rune, the power of which makes one a god. Marika just cheated the system and absorbed it all. From the hornsent, from the sacrifices made by the hornsent and later from their gods. The culminated power allowed her to manifest a rune strong enough to power up the reality. The Elden Ring, probably previously divided up into life in general, when Elden Beast first hit the Lands Between.
i thought that she command to kill the hornsent in the crusade.. thats waaaaay after she became a god.. so i still dont know what corpses she used in the story trailer... im having issues to figure out a consistent timeline.. first of all corpses were needed (who knows from whom) then she became a god.. then magically the erdtree appeared with that size? doubt it.. as every tree it might need time to grow that huge size (same for scadutree at the same time) ...then in the interim of the trees growing i asume many events happened like the war with the giants so that radagon is cursed and got red hair and so now we can speak of the birth of messmer and not a second before (because he have red hair anda radagon is the only possible connection).. then the crusade starts.. so the corpses in the story trailer? whose would they be? D:
Except the Elden Ring (which is the Elden Beast) already existed prior to Marika, as shown by the engravings in Farum Azula.
It looks like a bunch of shamans shoved together, to form a gate, like that of the Jar innards. Marika didn't cheat, she revolted and took the destruction of her people as a tool for her power and eventual childrens hope of supremacy
There is an incantation from the DLC that reveals the Crucible is a current like the primeval current, so it is more a force of the universe layered over everything which the Gate of Divinity is designed to allow people to somewhat access it. Marika's blood sacrifice of the hornsent is probably more related to Erdtree's needing blood to grow somehow or what allowed her to not need to sacrifice her flesh like Miquella did (probably why the Erdtree and Haligtree are so big and special compared to all the minor erdtrees in the based game). Or it could be related to Marika somehow tying the Erdtree directly into/with the Crucible somehow.
why was my message erased?
Youve gotten bigger through your unwavering duty to share the lore of elden ring to the world, The devs and creator im sure would be very happy to see this.
Youre growing even still, dont stop doing what youre doing man. Youve been my favorite youtuber to discover these things.
Fantastic video. It's been driving me up a wall trying to figure out some of these things. Can't wait for the next video
Glad it helped! Thanks for the kind words!
The Empyrian Grandmother wears the same clothes as Nanaya’s body has. For this reason, I believe the fetus we saw in the trailers, pregnant womans child by Midra, was Marika.
what fetus are you referring to?
@@vongolamistowl in the trailer, we see the photo of Midra and a pregnant woman beside him. I believe the pregnant woman is Nanaya, based off of clothing and story, and with her clothing matching the Grandma, it makes sense to me. The only empyrean not born of Marika, that we know of, is Marika herself.
I don’t feel like the Grandma character is Marika’s grandmother. Imagine ordering your son to kill all of your grandmothers people. Yeah, Marika is horrible, but idk. That story doesn’t make sense to me.
@@jonahsampson4843we also see that painting in Midra's mansion.
its an illusionary wall so it might not be there if you played through that level
@@jonahsampson4843 more connections between Marika and Midra. Midra’s sword is said to be imbued with Golden Order magic, and he actually uses the Golden Order audio cue on one of his attacks. So he’s associated with the Golden Order, yet his mansion is Hornsent-inspired. This MAY provide the implication Marika’s early relationship with the Hornsent was initially civil, and perhaps even complementary. Considering Midra’s manse is actually a Hornsent location (architecture in his mansion share the exact same entrance doors, and share the exact same Solomonic columns as Belurat), I don’t think it’s too far fetched that Marika would take revenge upon her adoptive family for massacring her people. And to point of “adoptive family”, I actually agree that the Shaman storyline wouldn’t make sense if the Grandam was Marika’s literal blood grandmother. That’s why I think there’s some typical GRRM complex adoption situation going on here. I don’t think everyone is blood related, and that’s all because of Nanaya OR Midra. One of them aren’t related to the Hornsent culture AT ALL.
I’m mainly of the opinion that Marika, and her people, are the adoptive children of the Hornsent (Grandam, Midra, Nanaya, etc.). And I believe the child in Nanaya’s womb, in the painting, isn’t actually Marika - and I believe it’s a random child of Midra and Nanaya, with slight evidence being that Nanaya cradles a “small” spine of what I assume to be their child, who prematurely died due to inheriting the Flame of its father.
And just like that, here ensues another multi-year long Miyazaki classic investigative mystery story. We will never know the answers. But that’s just how we like it
@@jonahsampson4843Except her grandmother and her peolle had already been killed and scrificed by the hornsent. Whichbwas the reason Marika ordered the war in the first place; revenge for the genocide of her people. Horrible as she seemed to be, I'll give her that one, as the hornsent are barbaric c*nts.
Handing out Mohg apology forms
I'm sorry mohg, I thought you were a mohglester.
Chop chop,back on the clock,please make a new video it's been 2months already
Sorry Mohg. I never realised that Miquella pulled an Amber Heard on you
@@maxthepaladin2147 amber heard has nothing to do with this. Depp was found guilty of abuse in court. They went to court in London and he lost, then he took another case in America to argue that she impacted his career the case in America didn’t prove that he was innocent. That’s just how it was spun in the media.
Mogh got catfished
1:32:00 re Prime Radahn being enthralled by Miquella - I thought the phase 2 transition cutscene hinted at this too. Radahn starts glowing red as he's losing, almost Mohg red, then Miquella comes out of the gate and all that red aura is suddenly transformed into gold
Your positive energy is exactly what I needed today. Thanks for being awesome!
You are so welcome! Thanks so much
I read on twitter that "Shaman" in Japanese is would more accurately describe something like the "Miko" of Japanese Shintoism who are female priests, shrine maidens.
Also isn't the statue under the tree in the Shaman Village of the Grandmother? After all the statue does look like an old lady and the golden braid of Marika looks like an offering to it. The description talks of Marika praying.
I don’t actually think this is a mistake in translation. The only thing it wouldn’t communicate was that they were all women, but honestly that was my baseline assumption.
Pretty sure thats not a statue at all, just a woman's preserved body
That was my read as well. That before she left on her crusade Marika left the braid at the shrine/grave of some figure important to her people/village
@@buckyhurdle4776 It's a statue. There's another identical one in Bonny Village, except headless.
@@colovianhastur5962 what if that one is a statue of this real woman?
I think with the final memory that Radahn did initially agree to be his consort, but that it happened when Miquella was still a believer in the Golden Order. When he turned away from the golden order is when I think Radahn rejected him.
Miquella turned away from fundamentalism becuase it couldn't cure Malenia's rot. But then Miquella orders Malenia to nuke Caelid to get Radahn back? It doesn't make sense, considering what we knew of Miquella's motivations.
@@CreativeUsernameEhHe wanted Radahn dead, and I believe her blooming wasn't an intentional act by her, it just happened when she was about to be defeated.
@@nullandvoid7524 Yes, just like it does in our fight with her.
@@CreativeUsernameEhHis ultimate goal above everything is a "gentler world". We see at the end of the day he is willing to resort to any depth to accomplish that goal (killing his siblings and getting rid of his flesh and mind controlling everyone). So while it isn't out of the realm of possibility he would order her to sacrifice herself for his goal, he probably expected her to win the fight in the first place because she had never known defeat.
@@nullandvoid7524 The blooming was intentional; she removed the golden needle used to hold the Scarlet Rot at bay prior to using it. What wasn't intentional was the bombing of all of Caelid.
I was fiending for these lore videos man. Can’t wrap my head around what you do, picking through the items to put together the story. Wish I could be in your head to hear the contemplation of the story in your first play through lol
1:06:45. It’s possible that Messmer and his army’s actions were viewed with great disgust that anyone who joined him was spurned thereafter (here, I’m stretching the “after pledging allegiance”). Marika probably knew that would happen, and that’s how she “killed two birds with one stone.” Her banishment of Messmer could just be her complying with “the will of her people.”
That map you displayed was spot on because that would put Ymir and all the finger stuff near Liurnia which makes sense.
I believe that lady Tanith was a dancer of Ranah in the past.
That would mean that rykard meet her in the land of shadows(giving more proof to your timeline of the war and the sealing).
defo - Zullie also showed that her model is more or less identical to Tanith's
@@SmoughTown Cool!!!
@@BronnyDinasty I always thought she was a Dancer from Eochaid but I assumed it could’ve been a part of the land of shadow but yea that makes sense!
Ive been watching this while laying down, twice now i tried to watch it but wnded up falling asleep easily, your voice is just that calming i guess.
That's honestly great to hear tbh. Thank you
@@SmoughTown no problem sir 🫡
Oh *HELL* yeah. Been praying for this to come out, thanks bro!
I really wish we had more info on the gate of divinity. When I got to the final boss I was so excited to defeat it and learn what the hell it was and how it works, so I was a bit disappointed when we get almost nothing. Its such a cool and important set piece that it feels unsatisfying to have almost nothing on it.
Just say Nothing. You don't have to cushion it.
We know it was built by Belurat to better be able to interact with the "Crucible Currents". It can't be yhe only way to touch the Crucible Currents though because gods and the Elden Ring existed before Belurat existed.
(Sorry in advance for the long post) I think an alternate potential explanation for Malenia fighting Radahn is that it was part of the vow on Radahn's part as well. Divesting himself of his flesh was a required part of the process, in order to separate himself from the influence of Marika's order. And that requires, essentially, the body to die. Radahn really doesn't seem the type to me, to want to go on a peaceful walk through a field and spout poetry as he divests himself of his Golden Flesh. Nor the type to personally do some Ranni-Esk sacrifice of someone else's soul. So I think it would be very in-character for Radahn to want his body to meet its end in a glorious battle. It's fitting for all the characters, as each one who divests themselves of their body, does so in a way which fits their character. Ranni, who is a schemer, got rid of her body through a murder plot. Miquella, who is more selfless and sympathizes with the plight of the downtrodden, takes a more self-sacrificial rout, of travelling through the lands burned and oppressed, atoning for his sins by slowly giving up his past bit by bit while walking in Marika's footsteps. And Radahn, a glorious warlord who lives for battle, does it by fighting a duel against the only warrior who could truly rival him at the peak of his strength.
We see from Freyja's character throughout the DLC, that the Redmane's do not view battle against others as something bad or unfortunate. They love it. To the extent that, after growing to respect and like her 'teammates' in the Land of Shadow, she regrets the fact she she couldn't have met them as enemies on a battlefield. They don't view it the way we might view it, as tragic. They love it, and almost seem to want to battle against the people they like and respect. So Radahn and Malenia fighting doesn't necessarily have to mean they were in conflict. Radahn's people don't seem to view battle in that way at all. It's more about respect for a worthy opponent. (Edit: An additional thought after posting. Seeing as, in Lordship, Radahn and Malenia would be allied, it is also possible that he, as a warrior, wanted the opportunity to face Malenia in battle before it was too late to. Similar to how Freyja views it as a shame that she wasn't able to face her allies in battle)
We also know through Godfrey, that Godfrey's ideology was "Strength befits a crown". Given how much Radahn idolized Godfrey, I don't think it's unreasonable to think he may have had a similar perspective. On top of that, it is also possible that, as an Elden Lord, Radahn would have had to put his waring ways behind him somewhat. Not entirely, of course, as we know Godfrey still fought in wars and such too. And Miquella did seem to have war planned as part of his promise to Radahn. But even so, Godfrey is clearly different to Hoarah Loux, even within war. And so Radahn may have had to, at least somewhat, abandon who he was, to become someone more fitting for the role of Elden Lord (This idea is not required for the overall theory to work though, it's just potential additional context). And I don't think this is something Radahn would have been unwilling to do, considering how much he respected Godfrey, who also did it. At no point is it hinted that Radahn lost respect for Godfrey when he took on the role of Elden Lord and put his warring ways behind him somewhat, so I don't think it would be fair to just assume Radahn would be against the idea for himself either, if given the right reason.
So I think it's entirely possible that Radahn did agree to the vow. However either A) Radahn wished for the end of his current life to be in a final, glorious battle, before he was to settle into the life of a Lord, who yes, may still war and fight, but it wouldn't be the same as before, as we see in the contrast between Godfrey and Hoarah Loux (Or if you don't buy into the idea of that contrast, maybe he's just such a warrior that he simply chose a warrior's death as his way of divesting his flesh, regardless). Or possibly B) he took the "strength befits a crown" mentality and agreed to the vow under the requirement of "if you can best me in battle, I will join you", which would fit nicely into his idolizing of Godfrey, who took a similar "strength befits a crown" mentality.
An issue I can see with this theory is "But wasn't Radahn Loyal to the Golden Order?" To that, I would argue he was not loyal to the Golden Order, he was loyal to Godfrey, Radagon, and their ideologies. Particularly Godfrey. And so while it can be interpreted as "Radahn loved the Golden Order". I would argue that it could easily also be interpreted as "Radahn idealized Godfrey, and thus was loyal to the order Godfrey helped establish", and that by extension of that, he would have also been loyal to the idea that strength befits a crown, and thus, would be willing to usher in a new order if the person earned the right to it in a show of strength which Radahn felt was fitting. In a similar manner to how, despite facing you in battle, Godfrey does not seem angry that you defeat him, and instead praises you for your strength and seems to all but give you a pat on the back for besting him.
There is nothing wrong with the interpretation given in this video, and I think it makes plenty of sense for Radahn's character. But I am just offering up this idea as a potential alternative, to show that, at least in my opinion, Radahn being unwilling isn't the only possible explanation. This is also just my personal taste, but I do prefer the idea that Radahn was willing. I think it makes for an overall more interesting story, and makes the idea of us battling against a God and their Lord, to decide the fate of the next age, even more compelling. At least to me. One feels more like a singular person manipulating people into siding with him. While the other feels more like a genuine conflict between two ideologies and the powerful, influential people who support them. And so on top of my arguments and evidence, I also just genuinely think this makes for a more compelling story, at least in my opinion anyway. Maybe I'm alone on that.
Anyway, sorry for the super long post, just had a lot to say. Even if you don't agree with the theory, I hope y'all can at least see where I am coming from with the idea.
Biggest thing I have against the “Radahns vow was a great battle” is that he would not have wanted what happened to Caelid. It’s either he never agreed and so miquella sent malenia to kill him or he did agree and malenia couldn’t uphold her end of the vow and decided to do a very unsportsmanlike play.
If the latter is the case then I lost even more respect for malenia tbh lol.
Solid reasoning - I still think there are some issues. Seems rather convoluted to destroy a whole region for like a ritual combat?
Surely Radahn and Malenia could have just don’t a 1v1 fight?
Someone on twitter suggested to me that maybe Radahn went back on the deal?
@@Ale-ey3xv I think that's a very reasonable argument. But keep in mind, Malenia wanted to kill Radahn, not leave him wounded.
Part of Miquella's backstory is attempting to cure the scarlet Rot. And he was able to come pretty close, even as a Demi-God with far less power than he would have had as a true God.
Malenia may have felt that she could inflict a killing blow to Radahn, and then any short-term consequences to the land of Caelid, could be resolved by Miquella in Godhood, since he got pretty close even as a Demi-God. Having Caelid be wrecked by scarlet rot for potentially thousands of years, was probably not her intention, but instead an unfortunate result of everything which could have gone wrong, going wrong.
Malenia wasn't strong enough to defeat Radahn. And then her attempt at a final blow failed, resulting in Caelid suffering the unintended long-term consequences.
I still think your argument is totally valid and reasonable, that would just be my argument against it.
@@SmoughTown These are all fair arguments. I'll go over them 1 by 1 and how I would explain them
1) I don't think destroying a whole region would have been part of the original plan. I think that may have been more of a Malenia issue specifically. She was incredibly dedicated to Miquella's mission. And when she realized she couldn't defeat Radahn 1 on 1 in a fair match-up, took it upon herself to use a last-resort nuke attack. This works particularly well if you go with the idea that Radahn agreed to it ONLY if he was defeated in battle. It may be seen by us as a cheap-shot, but it would have been a legitimate victory had it worked.
Something important to keep in mind with this also, is that her intentions were not to harm Radahn, they were to kill him. She wanted Radahn to die so that Miquella could ascend to Godhood. Not to simply wound Radahn and have him and Caelid rot away for thousands of years. We already know that as a Demi-God, Miquella was working to try to cure the Scarlet Rot, and he came pretty close despite his limitations. Whether he could or not is an entirely different conversation, but I don't think it's unreasonable to think that Miquella being able to cure scarlet rot as God, would be something that Malenia would have taken into account. After all, we know that he helped to heal and help Frejya, despite only being a Demi-God at that point. And his needles seemed to do the job perfectly fine of halting the rot, just not curing it entirely. if he can do all of that as a Demi-God, then who's to say he couldn't do even more as a full God? Or even if he couldn't, that people would have faith that he could, at least.
So essentially, Caelid may not be in the spot it is in now: Totally overrun by Rot, if Malenia had successfully killed Radahn, Miquella had ascended to Godhood much earlier, and been able to do something as a God about the Rot. I don't think the intention, on either side of the battle, was to leave Caelid in the state it is now. I think that is just an unfortunate consequence of Melania using her rot, but still not being able to finish the job even then.
Because that's important to keep in mind, when discussing Caelid's current situation. Whatever the plan was, it failed. Malenia didn't kill Radahn despite trying to. And so the state Caelid is in now, could simply be the result of the plan failing. If she had succeeded, things may have turned out differently with Miquella as a God with a specific interest in curing the Rot.
2) You are right in that they COULD have done a 1 v 1. But I think we have reason to believe that Redmane culture values battle, and war. Miquella didn't promise to Radahn an endless supply of elite 1 v 1 competition, or countless warriors to challenge his skill. He specifically promised war. And when you fight Frejya at the end, she doesn't say anything like "I must stop you from preventing the return of my lord" Or anything like that. instead, she faces you in a battle with many people, and says that this will be "A battle befitting the birth of a new lord" (I don't have the exact quote on me right now, but you know the line I am referencing). She views the battle you and all these other people are in, as a glorious one which is fitting for the rise of a new Lord into this world. So I think the idea of a large-scale battle between warriors, a war to decide the fate of the world, and the coming of a new lord, would have been the sort of things the Redmanes would have wanted. After all, if you are Radahn, and his warriors, what could possibly be more enticing than a war to decide the fate of the world? It would be seen to them as the ultimate battle to decide fate itself. A battle of such scale and importance, that nothing else in their lives to that point could even compare to it. As for Melania and her Knights, they don't really get a say in that, since Radahn is the one who has the power to refuse the terms of the deal. She and her knights would have to play along if that is what Radahn wishes. 'In order to get him to agree, I have to face him in battle? Then so be it, for Miquella.'
3) Yeah, that's very possible. He may have simply gone back on the deal. I don't have much of an argument against that. But as I mentioned, I am not really arguing that your theory is wrong. I think is very easily could be true. I am just presenting an alternative theory. And trying to show that, at least in my opinion, Radahn being unwilling isn't the only explanation. it is AN explanation, for sure, and a very valid one. But I would argue there are also other explanations which make sense.
you are the best fromsoft youtuber to date. I have frequently shared my respect and love for your content, and i will continue my patronage! Keep it up man
Means the absolute world to me my friend! So grateful for your support.
@@SmoughTown If you remain loyal to your calling, then no matter what you do, no matter what happens to me, I will never cease to support your videos. Until you have one to slay a god.
I haven’t finished the DLC yet and playing through it blind.
I’m saving this video for when I’m done. Can’t wait!
Enjoy your playthrough!
29:19 I'd like to point out that I think this isn't a statue of Marika. It clearly shows someone more frail, someone with thin, old limbs and rough hair. In fact, it's even the same statue as the beheaded one which gives you the gesture. The golden braid mentions Marika's offering to the Grandmother, an offering which was left at a statue. In my playthough, all these things pieced together into a conclusion that the statue depicts the Grandmother, not Marika. I thought it something unarguable, and yet I suppose interpretations vary among people.
I've been so hyped for this video. There's just so much new lore it's insane. Especially for Mogh and his entire story.
Unreal how much new lore right?
@@SmoughTown i really do love what they did with Mogh the most. It puts him in entirely new light.
@@polo5760yh victimises a child rapist. Amazing right.
For me now, the big question is what is Mohg's true nature? Ansbach seems like a decent guy so why would he follow the Formless Mother? An outer god who craves for torture and violence endlessly? Are there deeper aspects to her nature that aren't so inherently terrible?
@@eurongreyjoy2 I did hear that the formless mother could be accepting of outsiders since alburnarics are present in Moghwyn, as well as the bloodfiends turning torwards her when they were at their lowest point, but at the same time, being a "nice guy" doesn't mean you're neccesarily good. Ansbach is smart, wise, and polite, but that doesn't mean he's a good person. He could easily be a monster on the battlefield and be perfectly fine with whatever atrocities his faction commits. You would think he would call out Miquella even harder, saying stuff like "oh he tricked all of us into going down a path of mindless and excessive bloodshed". He would have a lot of reason to say it, but the only part he's concerned with is how Mogh was treated. Which is honestly consistent with how the faction is structured because Mogh is literally a figure of worship, second only to the formeless mother. Sanguine Nobles literally dress like him.
Best story explanation video yet!
Much appreciated! Glad you enjoyed it
Great video. Honestly, my favorite part of the new lore has to come from the new discoveries about the fingers and metyr. I always loved the mysteries of the universes cosmology, and it was great to learn more about it while gaining 100 new questions in true fromsoft style. Can't wait for the video about it.
Yeh that was a superb piece of the lore. Will defo revist
Thanks for not using a spoiler thumbnail, cant wait to watch!
Thanks my friend! Yeh tried to choose an image that didn't reveal more than the trailers.
The biggest thing for me lorewise was the last part of ”Messmer’s kindling” where it said: SPOILER
”Messmer, much like his younger sister, bore a vision of fire.”
agreed - massive revelation
Nah, imo the craziest was the revelation of metyr being the mother of all two fingers, and even she hasn't heard from the greater will in a long time. Have the two fingers actually been conversing with metyr, and metyr was just winging it due to the absence of the greater will? And she was the first meteor to hit the lands between. Dlc lore was awesome. Wish we got more godwyn and gloam eyed queen stuff, though.
@@Cas-ed9obthe Ymir questline in general has some massive revelations about the Greater Will in general, most importantly of which being that its not an Outer God, instead its like.. capital G God God
Is it referring to Malenia? If so, what does that actually mean?
@gavinallen2955 it's referring to Melina, as she is the only other person in the game it describes as "seeing a vision of fire"
I’ve been on the edge of my seat waiting for this video! Just what I needed after a long day!
Amazing video as always!
Much appreciated and glad you enjoyed
Here’s an interesting comment I found by user “lost-in-the-enigma” under Gingy’s Elden Ring Shadow of the Erdtree - Story & Ending Explained
“The DLC has changed my views of Miquella's curse of eternal youth from being one that focuses on his fate to never come to fruition and instead is simply a curse that keeps him as a child. As powerful and talented as he is, in my eyes Miquella has always had the mindset of a naive child.
Instead of having his curse doom his endeavors to fail, its his childlike tendency to abandon a task in search of a new idea or plan that has been causing him to fail time and time again. Miquella failed to find a way to fully cure Malenia's Scarlet Rot, and instead moved on to the Haligtree as his next project when he got a temporary fix. His safe haven to the oppressed was left to wither and rot when he entered his cocoon to possibly free himself of his curse. Without any sign of looking back at the horrors he is doing by abandoning his projects and goals time and time again, Miquella fails to ever consider the true ramifications of his actions.
The DLC makes this all the more clear. His plan to enter the Shadow Lands to become a god make his theft from the Haligtree into him abandoning it, leaving his followers to wait for him endlessly as the Scarlet Rot overtakes them. His desire to have Radahn be his Lord due to his kindness and strength comes off as a child idolizing an older brother, failing to see Radahn as his true self: a blood thirsty warrior who craved glory and battle endlessly.
His journey through the Shadow Lands shows him walking a path that I truly do not believe Miquella understood the ramifications of. He abandons his core characteristics as a part of his ascension to godhood, not realizing that he will become "caged by divinity" as he naively condemns himself to being a puppet of the Greater Will or some other Outer God.
Even his Age of Compassion is corrupted by his childlike view on the world. Instead of truly leading and changing the world, Miquella charms people into following him. And judging by his dialogue in the final fight, I don't think Miquella understands how brainwashing people into compassionate and kind people is no better than making them his puppets.
Overall, I find Miquella to be a very interesting character: A godlike being with the naivety of a child.”
absolute banger, thank you for this
This is a great comment, Radahn is not a good guy and would be a horrible lord for an age of compassion. I'd think Malenia or Godwyn would likely be better choices for Miquella, or hell what about the player character? We now know there was a cut Miquella ending, wonder what the thought process was there? Anyways, Miquella is a naive child with the powers of a god, definitely twilight zone worthy.
@@eurongreyjoy2I wonder if st trina would’ve worked somehow
although Siluria's tree depicts a tree instead of a spiral, I think it is worth noting that the ash of war is a spiral bean much like the hornsents incantations (that was actually the first connection I made while playing)
not only that, Ordovis weapon also spins in a vortice
Can we really call what Marika did a "betrayal" of the Hornsent when she clearly never owed them any loyalty? If anything, her actions are just the turning of the wheel of violence. The people in power abuse those below them, their victims eventually rise up, only to repeat their tormentor's mistakes later on. Hurt people hurt people until something (or someone) comes along to break the cycle. And Miquella is NOT that person, as we come to learn.
Was literally just thinking yesterday when where you going to put out your story video. Great start to the weekend.
When you think about it, it makes a twisted amount of sense as to there seems to be so many spirits of people and creatures in the Land of Shadow and why Marika removed the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring; It's to prevent anyone in the Land of Shadow from dying and thus, Messmer's crusade never ends. Marika hates the Hornsent so much that she didn't simply want them to die, she wanted them to suffer for all eternity, turning the Land of Shadow, their own homeland, into hell where the crusaders can brutalize, scorch and impale its denizens even when they've long passed into nothing but spirits, all the while Messmer's Shadow Keep looms over the land like Barad-dûr from Lord of the Rings and the Scadutree stands tall and mighty as the Erdtree's shadow, a constant reminder that the Hornsent are condemned to an eternity of brutality under Messmer's rule without even the benefit of an afterlife. Since every hell needs a devil, Marika chose her son Messmer to fulfill that role.
On a related note, the design of the furnace golems seems to be a sort of twisted karmic retribution towards the Hornsent approved by Messmer and Marika. The shamans were mutilated, then stuffed into jars to become saints by the Hornsent so in response, Marika orders her son Messmer to wage a brutal, genocidal war against the Land of Shadow with his most prominent war machine being the massive furnace golems where Hornsent themselves are stuffed inside to serve as fuel for the machine as it marches over the land as an instrument of terror, destruction and mockery with its horned mask of the fell god of fire the Hornsent so feared.
A theory I liked was that the Erd tree is actually just the dead rune pile left by a dead Crucible tree, When we the player die we leave a lil tree of runes to collect and that when the Crucuble was suplanted and destroyed it left the Urd tree with no one able to collect it, so it became the Urd tree and a new symbol of the new order. The Erd tree is just a very shiny corpse.
Its a fun theory to me anyway.
But our little tree doesn't change size or shape regardless of the amount of runes we die with.
@@moosiemoose1337 Well yeah, we are only little after all, The runes are "energy" right, So we can only grab so many in a certain amount of time, The crucible would have an indefinate amount of time, so it could in theory could be a million years old holding trillions of runes from the everything that dies around it, Its not a solid theory but it is a fun one.
@@WingsOfShadows yeah, that's a good point. It is a fun theory for sure
I literally last night was looking to see if you had a lore video up and sure enough what do I find today
Thanks for another awesome video! Been looking forward to your thoughts and breakdown ever since I finished the DLC. I really like your idea about Marika talking Messmer into leading the crusader on the down low so he could indeed take all the blame for it
As someone who never pays attention to the lore while playing, you are always appreciated!
Means the world to me, thank you so much
I know it’s not lore per se, but the strength of the atmosphere in the DLC is remarkable. It leaves an imprint on you. The sense of sorrow and abandonment coupled with that initial autumnal vibe as though you are treading on hallowed ground. I have a real fondness for the Ringed City purely because of its atmosphere and SotE surpasses it.
And also the amount of death and destruction you can come across throughout the Land of Shadow, clear signs of brutal mass slaughter that was neither clean nor quick.
Ive commented a lot to this video, but finally finished it. So so good, amazing first full lore video anyone could hope for. And it really solidifies Elden Ring's 10/10 status imo becaus the story lives on so much longer than any gameplay can.
wow thank you so much! Means the world
I have been impatient waiting on you to post a lore video!
Seen it was an hour and got HYPE AF 😂😊
Do you believe Marika and Midra have a deeper, more direct connection than immediately apparent? I mean first off, the similarities in spelling with Midra, Marika, Melina, Miquella, etc. The painting of the Manse in the past has the same flowers as Shaman Village. Shaman village has also crumbled downwards it seems with the Ruins of Unte. And of course Nanaya holding her stomach as though to indicate pregnancy in the portrait. Could Midra be Marika's father? Another point to his importance is that he receives a cutscene, with only four bosses receiving one in the expansion, with 2 of those being for Messmer and Miquella. What do you think is going on here? There's also the matter of the torch Nanaya holds and the note near the entrance.
I think the Messmer's orb incantation is one of the most important sources of information on his own state of mind, hinting towards some form of betrayal he experienced, I assume via Marika. He may have been made out as the sole guilty party for his crusade. But the incantation tells us that he despised his own flame & he tried to get rid of it, some form of self-loathing , carrying blasphemous symbols to the golden order (flames & snakes). His own self hatred could have driven him to carry on with the extermination of graceless beings, even after getting betrayed by his mother. (this also plays into his last words after being defeated, cursing Marika)
Great breakdown I always look forward to your in-depth observations and Overview
I like how this DLC flips the base game on its head. Who would of thought the Vampire Demon lord was a pawn in Miquella's game. 10/10 amazing!
Visiting the Shaman Village and discovering the 2 lore items there made me feel the same way I felt when I was reading Ymir Fritz's backstory in AoT.
Absolute chill and this otherworldly fantastical feeling.
Same, I actually just sat there and contemplated....
'this is Marika's hometown'
What a moment
@@SmoughTown the beginning of all our curses and blessings began in a quaint little village... man that was such a revelation to me
Marika's like Ymir Fritz after her village was raided, sacked and its people meeting a grisly fate but instead of becoming a slave to a king after making contact with a mysterious, otherworldly power, she used that power to become a god, usurped that king’s place and become a vengeful, genocidal tyrant (though not without her reasons).
@@VictorIV0310 yeah, also considering how close it is to Finger Ruins of Deos... there's many parallels here
@@SmoughTown the bgm I think is also similar to the beginning of the starting theme when we open the game. Those few harp strung, probably symbolizing a beginning
Can’t believe how fast you got something of this quality released. So stoked. Also Scadu is just pronounced “Shadow/Shadoo”. It just uses the Old English root, like its siblings the Erdtree (earth tree/world tree) and Haligtree (holy tree)
Much appreciated my friend
Haha - yeh thanks, I am unfortunately to used to saying it wrong now. Will try to fix for the next one!
@@SmoughTown haha yeah Scadu is just another ‘Siofra’ situation where everyone is going to say it wrong until we get used to it. I literally learned it yesterday when I got suspicious and looked up the root. The video is just as incredible as ever and I can’t believe how much research you must have been doing. Thanks for what you do m8
Thank you for making my Saturday even better SmoughTown! Much love man, and don't worry, I was pronouncing Scadutree wrong too 😆
Miquella mentions honoring a vow to Radahn. In the memory he mentions that "we" made a vow with you as in it was Miquella and someone else. I think that "we" = Miquella and Malenia. The vow itself I speculate was something along the lines that if they could defeat Radahn and Miquella can become a god that Radahn would be Miquella's consort.
I JUST came home from work. This is so perfect.
The crucible being connected to double spirals, makes for an easy DNA double helix connection. It's where all information about life forms is stored. Scientific base knowledge like this or gravity being some magic stuff in the lands between would fit right in.
Interesting point especially since the hornsent see it as a way of ascending to Godhood. They’re basically advocating for a hyper evolutionary society to reach the levels of godhood. Reminds me of some of the other themes of ascension we see in Bloodborne where people are modulating their bodies and minds to reach higher planes of existence
Thats the obvious connection, along with the grafting and support of a tree, by spiraling another tree around it, BUT theres another key piece of context.
Spira, is a direct reference to another game that ERs shintoism interpretation draws heavily from-- final fantasy 10, the land of Spira- in which itself the name spira is a reference to the neverending downward spiral of d//eath the lands were caught in.
After this DLC I would put the references directly on the level of how much DS3 lore is referenced, with things like bedrock crags, and the profraned flame/flame of izalith story, with the crucible.
Been waiting for this one. Killer work as always mate, can always rely on the GOAT to bring some incredible content. Cheers 🍻
So here for this!!