Egg bound goldfish how to diagnose and treat a bloated egg bound goldfish

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ส.ค. 2016
  • Today we perform diagnostic tests to determine the cause of goldfish with very bloated abdomen which we discovered was egg bound. We explain the course of treatment for this condition and we also show and explain how we test for common conditions, such as egg bound, tumour, chronic infectious disease, or kidney disease which are the various causes for bloated goldfish.
    Watch Part 2 here - • Treating Egg bound gol...
    Disclaimer:
    The opinions expressed on this channel and by Dr Loh are created for educational and informational purposes only, and are not intended as a diagnosis, treatment or as a substitute for professional Veterinary advice, diagnosis and treatment. If you have a question or concern about your own fish, please consult a local Veterinarian or professional to address your needs or concerns, or for advice on specific treatments for your aquatic pets.
    The Fish Doctor Channel does not endorse or recommend any commercial products, medical treatments, pharmaceuticals, brand names, processes, or services, or the use of any trade, firm, or corporation. Names are for the information and education of the viewing public, and the mention of any of the above on the channel does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by The Fish Doctor channel or Dr Loh.

ความคิดเห็น • 109

  • @nikechoo8166
    @nikechoo8166 4 ปีที่แล้ว +12

    I learn more from watching Dr. Loh than my online classes during the COVID-19. Thanks Dr Loh and team!

  • @Glenmoto12
    @Glenmoto12 3 ปีที่แล้ว +12

    Our gold fish just died from this :-( we had no idea what it was and thought it was just normal for her to swell, and then we found her floating on the water dead yesterday. I wish I’d known it was an issue before, now we’ll be on the lookout for it!

  • @brandonestrada2791
    @brandonestrada2791 7 ปีที่แล้ว +75

    You should make a series that can help fish owners to identify the genders of fish

    • @BigRevKev82
      @BigRevKev82 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      What about fish who choose to be gender neutral?

    • @MisterK-YT
      @MisterK-YT 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      @@BigRevKev82 they have to pee in a separate tank

    • @BigRevKev82
      @BigRevKev82 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      @@MisterK-YT that's a relief.

  • @muddyotterspottery569
    @muddyotterspottery569 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Thanks for such a thorough demonstration. I didn’t know so much could be done for pond fish. Now I have to find a fish vet in my area.

  • @gunterg7309
    @gunterg7309 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I don’t know why this got recommended to me. but for some reason I find this interesting. Or why I keep watching don’t even have fish or anything but you have me hooked... I’ll see my self out.

  • @cjandauntieyaya1446
    @cjandauntieyaya1446 7 ปีที่แล้ว +14

    Was wondering if one could just put her in an isolated tank with a couple of nice looking males and then warm the water in that tank slowly up to 80F and perhaps the warmer water will help the eggs release and you can get a breeding at the same time.

  • @dianadiana9312
    @dianadiana9312 7 ปีที่แล้ว +36

    I need answers for Albertalol where is the video on how she is

    • @brisketsmom
      @brisketsmom 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Diana Pineda lmao fr

    • @quetzalcoatul1
      @quetzalcoatul1 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Yeah I'd like to see if it survived

  • @riverp9019
    @riverp9019 4 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    Thats the cutest fish!!! It looks like it's a Japanese Jikin goldfish, they are prone to being egg bound as they get older I've found but seasonal confusion and diet play a very big part. The first thing I would do is warm up the water to 30%C, add a teaspoon Epsom salt if you like but keep her in it for a week or two. Very importantly feed her live or frozen live daphnia at this time. This initiates a spawning response very quickly, within a few days at which time you can attempt a gently hand stripping of the eggs. I mean very gentle, it should happen immediately that the eggs gush out, hardly any pressure.. If nothing comes put her back and continue feeding the daphnia for another few days. It will happen soon, suddenly they will all come out at once just with the pressure of your finger tips as you nestle her belly. Once this is done take her out and put her back in the pond by floating her in a basin for the water to cool her down slowly to pond conditions. Remember to condition your fish by feeding live foods in Spring or they can get egg bound because they are too sluggish to spawn. I'm not sure if this is a hormonal response initiated by the live food abundance at this time of year in natural conditions or how it works but it does certainly work. It also works with small tropical fish. If you are noticing they are getting egg bound feed live or frozen live brine shrimp or small daphnia, mosquito larva that sort of thing. Dried live food doesn't work as well but worth trying if you don't have a store near you selling live or frozen live food. Prevention is always better than a cure. In nature spawning is initiated by a host of things even rain, light and sunshine, but primarily by warmth and a sudden abundance of zooplankton in Spring, these natural elements and occurrences are absent from our often sterile aquariums and indoor ponds. Spraying the water in spring regularly with a hose pipe as the water warms up and feeding live foods and plant matter all ensures the fish cycle in season as they are meant to, this prevents egg binding and makes for much livelier happy healthy fish. There should aways be plant matter for them to graze on goldfish are omnivores. Plain floating water weed is the easiest but failing that spirulina pellets are essential if there is not even algae for them to eat in their environment. Vary their diets and try and mimic seasons, feed less animal protein (live freeze live) in winter......they need a rest period of a few months where they wont eat much at all. Feeding high protein, high carbo pellet diets at this time can cause egg binding as the male fish wont have any spawning drive. At this time feed wheat germ sparingly if the fish are looking for food if not just let them be and lower the water temps so they don't become gravid before they're meant to. It's quite complicated keeping goldfish indoors as they're not technically a tropical fish and need seasonal cues to function properly.

    • @shawna3457
      @shawna3457 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I would you consider making a video series to teach fellow goldfish people about things like this? I would definitely subscribe!

    • @equestanton1017
      @equestanton1017 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@shawna3457 Thanks for that. No I haven't considered that, not much time to do things like that. Safe to say goldfish can live for a very long time if they are able to be kept with three clear seasons with a long cold rest in winter. Failing that they tend to live shorter lives with some problems but we can try and mimic seasons with temps and diet etc.

  • @mikayuu3473
    @mikayuu3473 6 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    The fish looks so cute .3.

  • @meimeichen1329
    @meimeichen1329 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Thank you doctor for the information

  • @EvetheKit
    @EvetheKit 8 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    Hi. Please help. We recently noticed our goldfish abdomen is swollen. It's round. It swims fine and eat. No pine coning, so we are worried that the fish is sick. Please help! I have video and pictures of the face but can't upload to show you. I hope you can help.

  • @johnca6048
    @johnca6048 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    My lionhead goldfish put on a belly in our pond (typical koi like pond, no shallow areas). She liked to eat. I noticed she was getting even bigger and I thought the eggs would soon come.. But instead, she got even bigger and so bloated that she could no longer swim but sat upside down in my pond. It is winter time now. Given good water quality, high quality food... and no other fish exhibiting anything like this symptom. I removed her from the pond and put into a quarantined tank inside the house... Her eyes are not popping out, nor are her scales prickling out. She's pretty symmetrical in appearance. Starting day 1 in tank I do daily 20-30% water change and put her on Furan anti biotic following those directions to the letter. She's been on antibiotics for 5 days straight. I increased aeration to the quarantine tank. I even videotaped daily progress. She lays upside down but I could see her eyes focus on me when I come to the tank. Her coloring is normal no changes in the quality of her scales or her eyes or belly. I dropped in 2 sinking food pellets day 8 and she perked up immediately moving towards the food albeit upside down sucking it into her mouth. So her appetite is there. And she tries to be active. Temperature has been 67degrees. Day 12 I've added a thermometer and heating and increased the temperature to 79-80 degrees to see if it will encourage releasing of eggs or movement of intestines. I will wait 2 more days before I try to massage her to release her eggs. I am pretty sure she is female judging by the gill characteristics etc... Anyone have any suggestions on saving the fish? I don't have the speculum, syringe or microscope... So far my fish is strong... Any ideas or suggestions?

    • @antsan6002
      @antsan6002 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      What was your outcome? I have a fish very similar to what you describe. She not entirely upside down but on her side

  • @lorellstoneman74
    @lorellstoneman74 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you.

  • @denisetitelis5865
    @denisetitelis5865 7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Very interesting video. Can you have the camera person zoom in on the fish.

  • @DutchReptilesOfficial
    @DutchReptilesOfficial 7 ปีที่แล้ว +21

    that's a really pretty fish

  • @Wtgoesaroundcomesaround
    @Wtgoesaroundcomesaround 8 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    hey Dr . so good to finally meet a fish Dr . online!! wish v had some 1lik you in India too . could pl suggests few meds too for each disease . Thanks again lots of lv tc

    • @thefishdoctor8746
      @thefishdoctor8746  8 ปีที่แล้ว +6

      thank you. we do talk about how we treat each specific case.

  • @DEAexotics
    @DEAexotics 7 ปีที่แล้ว +15

    you have the greatest videos please keep sharing

  • @brentr1846
    @brentr1846 8 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    Great video! I'd love to see a video on Heximita.

    • @thefishdoctor8746
      @thefishdoctor8746  8 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      Thanks, yes we have a detailed Hexamita video planned and it will be coming up in near future.

    • @brentr1846
      @brentr1846 8 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      +The Fish Doctor GREAT! I'm looking forward to it!

  • @naerwyn239
    @naerwyn239 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    I love your videos! Thanks for all the information. By the way, was this goldfish a Wakin?

  • @oqr2hqo
    @oqr2hqo 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hey dr I'm having an issue with one of my oscars could you be able to help?

  • @nerydelcarmenbalansanchez2050
    @nerydelcarmenbalansanchez2050 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Saludo m wncanto su video kien o vomo puedo traducirlo en español gracias

  • @maksonmarketing8509
    @maksonmarketing8509 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hi doctor can u make a video of fantail goldfish gills peeling of prevention

  • @gurtejtakher2291
    @gurtejtakher2291 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    I need a help. My redcap goldfish is swimming upside down from the last 2-3 days . I saw some videos related to swim bladder problem.But I am not sure what's the problem is and if it is the swim bladder Problem then how to cure it ?

  • @sleepingwithceline
    @sleepingwithceline 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    I wish you were based in brisbane! My big ranchu just passed away from this 😢

  • @ANSARNIZAR
    @ANSARNIZAR 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Sir , one of my molly fish is now changing colour. its a white molly but it sometimes seems sick and turns into a grey colour. currently im using heater its effective but not cured completely . can you please help

  • @atifyousuf6052
    @atifyousuf6052 7 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    sir please help me
    can we see gold fish eggs from human eyes please tell me
    and tell me how can i identify male and female fish?

  • @antony3604
    @antony3604 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    My oranda red cap fish belly became reddish and now noticed jaw also became reddish. What is the reason and what is the treatment ? Partial weekly water changed done 5 days before.

  • @Joshua-ps1jt
    @Joshua-ps1jt 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    I need help do you do any work with pea puffer fish and if so can you give me some some advice on helping her I think she maybe egg bound but she changed from light yellow to dark gray and is very shy she won't eat and is starting to turn on her side is there any way you can please help me

  • @karltonepps834
    @karltonepps834 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I really feel that the chain store pet stores should have courses and classes for the fish hobby. And they should have a person on staff to treat fish with diseases and other complications and conditions

    • @thefishdoctor8746
      @thefishdoctor8746  5 ปีที่แล้ว

      We recommend that any pet stores stocking fish endeavour to form relationships with a fish veterinarian to ensure these animals receive appropriate veterinary care to manage any medical issues, and have channels for referring difficult cases for veterinary assessment.

  • @equestanton1017
    @equestanton1017 6 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    What a gorgeous little fish, she definitely gets her looks from a Jikin and her functionality from a common goldfish. They make an excellent cross. I wouldn't wait until Spring as this situation could worsen very quickly and turn into dropsy. I would put her in an aerated tank of the same pond water and gradually increase the water temps over a week, adding some aquarium salt. Then try again with gently massaging her abdomen.

  • @tweetysworld52
    @tweetysworld52 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    That's such a beautiful jikin :)

  • @eridanampora1140
    @eridanampora1140 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    hey doc my pet little gold tiwh is little fat in the belly after I over feed him a but and not I'm worri3d about now what do I do pl? please help

  • @amnguyen3779
    @amnguyen3779 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    chua oi chua tung thay con ca nao dep vay

  • @andreastearns7464
    @andreastearns7464 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    How can I treat my egg bound fish? She's been big like this for awhile, I know she doesn't have dropsy, because her scales aren't protruding. Please help!

  • @Lt.852
    @Lt.852 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    I have a comet about 6 inches long in the pond who I assumed was pregnant for all of June which has now segued into July. At first she only had slight bulging on either side of her rear tail end of body... Almost like saddle bags. Then finally yesterday I noticed the saddle bags looked markedly smaller... With one side being slightly larger than the other side but overall smaller, so I assumed she had dropped some of her eggs. That was yesterday. Today, this morning her entire body is completely bloated looks as if she were pumped up with air all over like a balloon. She is very active and eating voraciously as she always does. Today with the severe bloating she is also leaning to one side now and then. Went to my fish store guy he said sounds like 'dropsy'. Put her in a separate water him and treated her for 1 hour with antibiotic he recommended then returned her to pond. Now not sure she was ever actually pregnant or if she is even a she. How would I know if she is egg bound... What can I do?

    • @neel9137
      @neel9137 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      It might be swim bladder disease.

  • @manyuy2k
    @manyuy2k 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I am having a golden fish and from last one week he not swimming properly and black spot is coming on his body for a time I am applying Terramycin on his body but I need your suggestion on this please help me soon

    • @gracee7156
      @gracee7156 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Abhimanyu Bharadwaj black spots are normal

  • @jackiesmith118
    @jackiesmith118 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    It's not related but can you tell me if a goldfish gets shock by the water temp, is there any way to try and save them?

    • @thefishdoctor8746
      @thefishdoctor8746  5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      It's worse to shock fish into higher temperatures than into colder water. Rule of thumb is to change temperature at a rate of 1 degree Celsius per hour.

  • @anshumangogoi1769
    @anshumangogoi1769 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Sir
    Why the fish eyes came out sir please make a video on that topic

  • @Dora23Jan
    @Dora23Jan ปีที่แล้ว

    My fish died suddenly and she was laying lot of egg in November. This never happened. I had introduced her to few new fish. And I pressed her abdomen and egg came out like hell. And after a day she was gasping and died. What should I have done here so that I could have protected her

  • @taebxts4217
    @taebxts4217 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Can I do this at home ?

  • @hunnyjsrhp
    @hunnyjsrhp 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hi doctor
    Can we have step by step videos to treatment of swimbladder means where to insert syring

    • @thefishdoctor8746
      @thefishdoctor8746  6 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      Hunny Kumar please consult your veterinarian for surgical and medical procedures on animals.

  • @020111KM
    @020111KM 7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    what kind of medicine is that and does it help with breeding?

    • @thefishdoctor8746
      @thefishdoctor8746  7 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      nikoli balcos it's a hormone and yes, intended for breeding, but can alone used therapeutically to treat egg binding in several fish species. there are other types for other species. I use ovaprim for koi and goldfish

    • @020111KM
      @020111KM 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Thank you for your prompt response, Doc! can i get them online or i need to go to a vet for it? i'm in US by the way

    • @thefishdoctor8746
      @thefishdoctor8746  7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      nikoli balcos please consult your fish veterinarian

    • @clxtedrag3154
      @clxtedrag3154 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      The Fish Doctor Ohhh

  • @robinvez6809
    @robinvez6809 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    How do you anesthetize a fish?

    • @thefishdoctor8746
      @thefishdoctor8746  4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Anaesthesia is used frequently, and the best demonstration of how fish are anaesthetised and how they respond to anaesthesia is in this video - th-cam.com/video/_Kz_NnZPXgU/w-d-xo.html

  • @returhning
    @returhning 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hi fish doctor i have a Oscar who has a bump on his bottom where he goes bathroom at its a clear blister like. Its not opened its not doing anything to make my oscar.not swim differently or anything and its alone in the tank to himself idk what else.to do plz help and I have been using antibotic inntank plz help me ..thx much

    • @thefishdoctor8746
      @thefishdoctor8746  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      To get a better idea of your problem, you may wish to post with pictures or videos in our VISITOR post section on our other Facebook page - tinyurl.com/thefishdoctor-facebook

  • @dobyputroparlindungan9762
    @dobyputroparlindungan9762 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    apik

  • @mmcadbury3306
    @mmcadbury3306 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hi Dr. Loh, my oranda goldfish died right after she laid her eggs today😭 I’ve been trying to think of the culprit why it happened. She was ok yesterday and there was no sign she will die.

    • @thefishdoctor8746
      @thefishdoctor8746  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Maybe exhaustion. How many males per female in spawning tank, and for how long?

    • @mmcadbury3306
      @mmcadbury3306 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@thefishdoctor8746 I noticed during the morning that. she was already weak, hiding and wants to be alone. I didn’t know that she is a female and didn’t know she will lay her eggs that day. By the time I saw hundreds of her eggs I just realized she is a female. I have only two at my aquarium. Ryukin and my oranda. During the her last two days I spotted a red color in her skin. Thank you for you reply.

  • @EvetheKit
    @EvetheKit 8 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    So unfortunate that I don't live I. Australia! Sigh!

    • @magzire
      @magzire 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      EvetheKit apparently there winter is still better than my summer

  • @CanineGrowTime
    @CanineGrowTime 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Many of their fish look way rounded like they're very eggy or just bloated... Not just this one.

  • @siyadkhan8920
    @siyadkhan8920 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    My gold fish eggs white not hatch and not green
    What I do

    • @thefishdoctor8746
      @thefishdoctor8746  5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      White means they're not fertilised, and will rot and grow fungus and bacteria. They should be clear amber and have developing embryos.

  • @sorryimaiden
    @sorryimaiden 7 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    If he's so big, I guess he a "bloater" #thelastofus

  • @magzire
    @magzire 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Winter? Sun is blasting out and wearing a t-shirt. What temps? Certainly doesn't look cold

  • @ferim4829
    @ferim4829 8 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    If left untreated, it can cause an abundance of issues with the fish. So is it possible to artificially replicate the breeding season indoors to stimulate hormonal changes in the fish, and treat the illness sooner?

    • @thefishdoctor8746
      @thefishdoctor8746  8 ปีที่แล้ว

      yes, possible, over a 2-3 week period of warming water, increasing photoperiod...

    • @ferim4829
      @ferim4829 8 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Hello Doctor, I am currently in dire need of your help. Just last night, one of my neon tetras died. Before its death, it had weirdly angled protruding eyes. (Both of them.) It seems to have had trouble seeing, and its mouth was constantly open. My water parameters were 7.5 ph, 78°F, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 5 nitrate. It may have been a bacterial infection, but my other tetras aren't displaying any signs of discomfort or pop-eye. Is it safe to treat the whole tank with an antibacterial medication? Or do you suspect any other possible illnesses? If it helps, I have 10 gold neon tetras and a female betta in a 24 gallon tank. Your insight would be greatly appreciated.

    • @thefishdoctor8746
      @thefishdoctor8746  8 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      +Mèng Xiǎng if you're in Australia, you may send me necropsy samples for lab testing. see technique demonstrated at thefishvet.com.au/videos.html
      For a list of services, download the manual from thefishvet.com/

  • @nozii06
    @nozii06 7 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    what breed is this ? i love it !

    • @aquastar4336
      @aquastar4336 7 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      nozii06 the breed is called Jikin I believe :)

    • @zezekingyo2374
      @zezekingyo2374 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      No it isn't a jikin. Jikins have *double spaced out tails that form a 120° angle in top view, creating a peacocktail* . This breed is a common goldfish, also known as the *hibuna*. Pet stores have these fish as feeders alot of tines. But it is rare to find a feeder fish with jikin patterns. This one doesn't have a Rokurin(12 points of red(1 lip, 2 pectoral fins, 2 pelvic fins, 2 anal fins, 2 tail fins, and 1 dorsal fin)) pattern, since the redness is covered at the peduncle and tail joint. Common goldfish are just basic variety of goldfish like comets, and in US, mostly it's about or over 15 cents a fish.

    • @gmardog
      @gmardog 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      金魚ZeZeKingyo It looks like a pearlscale

  • @NicoleGertz
    @NicoleGertz 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Prolapse of ovary or intestines in a fancy goldfish

  • @meimeichen1329
    @meimeichen1329 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    She's pregnant

    • @thefishdoctor8746
      @thefishdoctor8746  6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      meimei chen see thefishvet.com/2016/04/01/is-a-pregnant-goldfish-called-a-twit-twat-or-twerp/

  • @Lt.852
    @Lt.852 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    P.s. I have 18 fish this is the only fish effected.

  • @debstor6599
    @debstor6599 7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    doctor my fish died when I did this is it possible I hit his heart

    • @thefishdoctor8746
      @thefishdoctor8746  7 ปีที่แล้ว +8

      procedures shown in our videos are to explain how fish veterinarians can help your fish.

    • @munarai2832
      @munarai2832 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      The Fish Doctor hello dr. my 2 yrs old goldfish has vhs.how can i cure it?please help

    • @chronically_dead
      @chronically_dead 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      "His"????

  • @GrimFelArt
    @GrimFelArt 7 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Aaaaaw. What a cute little fish. So *fat*

  • @paperroman8345
    @paperroman8345 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Just squeeze it open

  • @res1492
    @res1492 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    My sushi is made with goldfish eggs?...WTF!!

  • @tamannadhanda8502
    @tamannadhanda8502 ปีที่แล้ว

    Please someone help me 😭, my oranda goldfish was laying eggs and i see egg bounding so i tried to help it a little and now it seems that her intestines came out of her anus (its not poop) or either its her ovaries came out and she looks so in pain please someone help me please 😭😭😭

  • @philotasss
    @philotasss 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    😂

  • @basheerkc7161
    @basheerkc7161 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    സയയക്ഷ

  • @quetzalcoatul1
    @quetzalcoatul1 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    WISH I CAN RESCUE MY FAT FISH BIG MAMA

  • @mariawoll9704
    @mariawoll9704 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    not helpfull

  • @woshigepro2
    @woshigepro2 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Stop it, doctor My goldfish is genderless.