Quark: I want you to try something for me. Take a sip of this. Garak: What is it? Quark: A human drink. It's called root beer. Garak: I don't know. { Garak scowls/snears } Quark: Come on. Aren't you just a little bit curious? { Garak sighs, and cautiously drinks... } Quark: What do you think? Garak: It's vile. Quark: I know. It's so bubbly and cloying and happy. { Garak smiles slowly as Quark speaks } Garak: Just like the Federation. Quark: But you know what's really frightening? If you drink enough of it, you begin to like it. Garak: It's insidious. Quark: Just like the Federation. #4.2 (ep 474) "The Way of The Warrior" -Quite apt don't you think *@Lore Reloaded*
Barq's... but occasionally A&W (though I'm not sure if there's a difference between the Canadian version and the US one). Generally speaking, though, I'm a cola guy. Also coffee.
This pretty much sums up my own feelings about the Federation. Don't get me wrong, I share the Federation's values for the most part, individual rights, liberty, equality, and peaceful trade and cooperation. Likewise, if I had to live as just another Joe Citizen in one of the Alpha Quadrant powers, I'd choose the Federation. However, the Federation is just so hokey, and sappy, and sometimes it seems like their dedication to peace does them a disservice, like they wait far too long to prepare for war when faced with a threat. The Dominion is the perfect example. They should have started mass producing new ships, new arms and weapons, and they should have had Section 31 infiltrating deep into Dominion territory, studying, and trying to steal Jem'Hadar ships, the moment they started hearing the rumors about the Dominion, and it's violent, tyrannical nature. Had they been a little less naïve about it, countless lives could have been saved. This is actually one reason I would like to see the Cardassians become not only members of the Federation, but a driving force within it. The Cardassians wisdom about power, violence, and determining what is, and is not a threat, would be a major asset to the Federation, and would help it be a little less naïve, and a little better prepared to face what's out there. The Federation needs to be a little less bubbly, and a little more ballsy. That's why I loved DS9 so much. Their naïve, hippy nature meant they weren't prepared to face the Dominion, but, they fought hard, and honorably. Remember the siege of AR-558, or whatever it was called, those Starfleet soldiers had balls of steel. Even Klingons would have been impressed with them. So we know the Federation has balls, O just wish they'd whip them out, and show them more often, lol.
I tend to agree with this, inevitable the Federations absorbs the other powers. With the Romulus Supernova that Empire is crippled and Cardassians are never the same after the Dominion War. That leaves the Klingons, after the Dominion War, not unrealistic that Worf may become high chancellor one day which could lead to Federation membership
Oh I doubt Worf would ever by chancellor, by choice anyway. I mean we don't see a better fighter anywhere. Plus he is just an ambassador. That being said, he may have a different role to play. Being the brother and friend of Chancellor Martok who is very much on the side of the Federation, he may make Worf the arbiter of succession as Kimpec did with Picard. This would lead to a cascade effect of pro federation chancellors whose arbiters are pratically hand picked by Starfleet which would most definitely lead to the empire joining the Federation. Or at the least a direct association
@@zachzent8287 plus, after the Dominion War, the economy of the Klingon Empire had become fragile and virtually collapse due to the cost of war and it takes them at least 10 years to recover and they probably need the Federation's assistance for trade and resources. In one episode of ST ENT, Daniels said that the Klingons may even joined the Federation in the 26th-27th century As for Cardassia, with so many the people there, died. Of course they need assistance from outside powers and its probably from the Federation itself as other powers like the Romulan Star Empire and Klingon Empire has their own struggle and issue to take care off after the war. But Cardassia becoming a member of the Federation is highly unlikely, because Bajor, assuming it becomes a Federation member after the war, would probably rejected this and would ask the Federation council to reconsider Cardassia's application as majority of Bajorans still feel their hatred and anger vs their former occupiers, not to mention, half of the planet's resources have stripped out by the cardassians
4:35 The Dominion always had a plan to exterminate the Cardassian people.. The Female Founder says this to Garak in one episode, before the start of the war, when she says something to the effect of "Your people are dead, they died the moment they made a move against us." Similarly, I think Dukat and Damar always kind of had the assumption that the Cardassians and the Dominion would possibly be enemies following the predicted defeat of the Federation, there is a little dialogue between the two of them about this I think during Sacrifice of Angels.. I assume Dukat's plan initially, was to use the overwhelming force of the Dominion to win a relatively quick and fast war over the Federation and possibly the Klingons, then following some consolidation, launch a surprise attack on the Dominion(an Alpha Quadrant wide "Pearl Harbor in space"), fortify the wormhole to prevent Dominion reinforcements from being sent and thus leave the Cardassians as the major power. I could see the Romulans being content to sign a non aggression pact with such a Cardassia. (addmittedly, I have NO idea how the hell Dukat or Damar could have thought such a plan could have succeeded, given the afore mentioned deficiencies in the Cardassian's overall ability to project power, as compared to other factions.. but given, the stated goal of the Female Changeling(extermination of the Cardassian people, due to the attack on the supposed Founder homeworld), I would hope the Cardassians summoned all of their space facist, martial traditions and rose to the occasion to supplant the Dominion following "Final Victory" and be able to hold onto at least Some of the territory won in this shorter, alternate Dominion War. BTW, I have always Loved the idea of Dukat winning out over Sisko in the Fire Caves, commandeering that shuttlecraft and returning to Cardassia Prime.. Given Dukat's Pah Wraith, godlike powers, I always imagined him being able to reinvigorate his utterly defeated people(who still had a sizeable and moderately powerful fleet of galor ships), and lead his nation to a final, hard fought victory over All of their enemies.. Imagine it.. Dukat, back in his gul armor uniform, with red demonic eyes, rallying the people on the ruined streets of Cardassia Prime, he gets a sympathetic squadron of galor ships to follow him(their power systems amplified by "demonic Pah Wraith magic", they retake Terok Nor(DS9). Once there, he issues a command to the Cardassian Union, and the fleets rally.. a battle ensues, the Federation Alliance is pushed back into Federation space(due to the Cardassian fleet being on the side of the Pah Wraiths.. (this had a similar effect during the war between the wormhole aliens in a previous episode.. the presence of the Pah Wraiths being in a better position over the Prophets, allowed for the Dominion forces to have better fortunes in battle; the dark gods living outside of time, in a higher dimension (they) were on their side.) Following this, the Cardassians under a reinvigorated and demonic Dukat could build up whatever was left of the battle weary Cardassian fleets and push into Federation and Klingon space, taking the core of the "Alpha Quadrant" and then lead raids into the Romulan Empire, possibly making them see that a truce/non-aggression treaty was in the interests of both sides(possibly requiring a certain Remen faction to implement??). Following this, the Cardassians could contain the Breen and begin cloning captured Vorta, to be used as a mass producible slave labor force to rebuild the Cardassian Union and exploit the newly obtained conquests in the "core" of the "Alpha Quadrant". With the wormhole presumably under the control of the Pah Wraiths, fortifying the wormhole wouldn't even be necessary, added to this the entirety of the Dominion was about to collapse due to the disease the Founders had been exposed to due to the actions of Section 31. Putting all of this together, all Dukat would have to do is simply wait, then following the extinction of the Founders and Jem'Hadar, he could begin sending task forces of three galors each, into the Gamma Quadrant to begin colonizing and projecting Cardassian power in that region, following the power vacuum left by a suddenly nonexistent Dominion. Just some of my thoughts that I have had in my head for about the past 15 years. I always liked Dukat and always imagined ways for him and his people to come out on top.
+Eric Darr It would have awful story and relationship elements. Sure it would have some spectacular space battles but I think, the Borg are better used as a seasoning, rather than the main course. I would like to see a Star Trek in the future after ds9/voyager, with the cardies and Klingons as members of the Fed, Romulan Allies and Starfleet having cracked transwarp or quantam slip stream and exploring the rest of the galaxy. That way we get encounters with races from across the franchise, including the dominion and the borg and new races too. it would be cool.
+Titus It was believed to be, but that ended up not being the case. The Borg ended up launching a full-scale invasion of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants in 2381, and despite the combined efforts of the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, and pretty much every other Alpha and Beta Quadrant race, the Borg almost won. It took a Deus Ex Machina to prevent everyone from being assimilated/destroyed. The neurolytic pathogen that Admiral Janeway infected the Borg with was eventually purged from the Collective, and this combined with the destruction of the transwarp network hub, the death of a Borg Queen, and the obliteration of Unimatrix 01, convinced the Borg that they could no longer tolerate the existence of the Federation. They would still assimilate, true, but that ultimately became a secondary goal. Their primary goal became the complete subjugation/destruction of the Federation. The Borg ended up sending an invasion force of roughly 7,000 Cubes, both regular and tactical variants, to seek out and destroy Earth once and for all. It took a godlike race of beings to ultimately defeat the Borg once and for all, a literal Deus Ex Machina if I've ever heard, seen, or read of one.
+Titus No, DS9 is about the Dominion war and the buildup to it, and the Borg don't even appear except in flashbacks. What sergeantassassin referred to must be from secondary material. Probably one of the novel series.
"Ahh yes...a house in the country,wife by your side and children playing at your feet.And above,flying in the breeze the flag of the Federation.....Charming...."
Here's a little headcanon/free speculation of mine regarding how the Cardassian Union could develop after the war. The Obsidian Order is destroyed and the Central Command either likewise destroyed, expelled or transmuted into another form, the Cardassians would begin to rebuild with their new Detapa Council controlling everything, now integrating it's Intelligence and Millitary divisions into itself in an attempt to remove division among the Cardassian leadership. They could possibly rename themselves the Detapa Union to commemorate this and move away from the Cardassia everyone had come to resent. As they rebuild, they are approached by the Federation multiple times, they accept token relief and infrastructural aid, but will only accept association status with the Federation, and not full membership, this is because the Cardassians have become paranoid about being manipulated and controlled by outside powers because of the Dominion war, a reflection of what happened to the Bajorans. The stranglehold of full authoritarian control is gone, but the Cardassians are not eternally vigilant against any attempts to control and oppress them by other powers, transforming them into fanatical egalitarians who are willing to fight.(again, reminiscent of the Bajorans). The Cardassians are approached by the now reformed and flourishing Ferengi Union with offers of exclusive trade rights and sales priority of the things the Cardassians will need to rebuild, and eventually an alliance is formed, to the chagrin of the Federation. Somewhere down the line, remnants of the Obsidian Order, the Central Command and The True Way begin making attempts to attack and seize control of the Cardassian people in their moment of weakness, but are attacked and repelled by unlikely allies, rogue Jem'Hadar. They offer to throw in their lot with the rebuilding Cardassians and their Ferengi allies, professing to be "liberated" and now consider themselves virtuous crusaders who's goal is to remain free and fight oppression wherever they see it, to a fanatical, even suicidal degree at times. The rogue Jem'Hadar join the alliance. At some point the Jem'Hadar take a great interest in genetic engineering to free themselves from the many genetic traits imposed upon them by the Founders, and eventually found a way to genetically alter the Vorta to "save" them, if they want it or not, from the control that has been forced upon them by the Founders, with the intention to eventually free more Jem'Hadar and Vorta from the thrall of the Dominion as a long-term goal of theirs. The Vorta join the alliance in a limited capacity. Perhaps after much drama, the Bajorans reconcile with the now reformed Cardassians and now see them as kindred in a sort of "now you know how it feels" sort of way, and the Bajorans leave the Federation and join the Alpha Quadrant Alliance. Cardassians, Ferengi, Jem'Hadar, Vorta and Bajorans united, the alliance would at this point become a super power now called the Alpha Union, which would come to accept membership from yet more Alpha quadrant powers.
Also post war the Cardassians had to worry about former foes seeking payback, so they knew they needed the protection of a great power. Now being the vassal of the Klingons or Romulans isn't that pleasant and if they didn't go with the Federation there was the risk that the Bajorian members of the Federation (which is now important because of the wormhole and the strategic location) would push for a punitive policy towards Cardassia, perhaps throwing them to the Klingons as a favour to their warrior allies. But as Federation members the Bajorians would be forced to play nice with their former occupiers, and may well end up in a situation similar to Germany and France, with both nations now very close allies, despite the actions of Germany towards France in the first half of the 20th century. Also the Klingons wouldn't harass their allies protectorate. And the Cardassians would have something to offer the Federation as a people - cynicism. Cardassians would temper the (supposed, Section 31 *cough cough) idealism of humanity, leading to a more hard edged pragmatic Federation, especially if the Ferengi start joining in numbers (And a lot of female Ferengi may start joining, to escape the sexism of their own culture, and also to discuss fashion with human females -who are sick of the legacy sexism of the internet ;). Imagine if Voyager, lost in the Delta quadrant, had a few openly Cardassians crewmembers (not counting Seska) to advise Janeway, don't tell the Kazons about replicators for example, and a Ferengi to handle trade negotiations for weapon upgrades (instead of a emotionally disturbed 7 of 9) and to annoy Neelix for comedy relief. Plus Ferengi are immune to psychic abilities. Throw in a more militant Betazoid after the Dominion invasion leading to more full blooded Betazoids joining Starfleet, where their abilities as security officers are terrifying (Troi's mother stopped a bomb plot by casually reading the minds of those Mon Calamari rejects on the transperter pads) and they would makes cloaks totally useless as weapons officers, and what if they could read shield frequencies in the minds of enemy engineers (like in TNG generations movie with the bugged visor). Long range exploration ship crews would be incredibly formidable. Then add in Klingon vigor and Romulan technology (Romulan deviousness is already covered by Cardassians) with singularity drives for extreme long range missions, and cloaks once the Romulan treaty forbidding them becomes null and void. The Federation would then become not only the unchallenged power of the Alpha and Beta quadrant, they would then expand out, because they have no rivals to threaten them because their rivals are now part of them (The Breen would become insignificant). Add in the technology from the returned Voyager and the galaxy is basically theirs in a few generations - The Borg won't be an issue because it's been shown that they can be flummoxed by just a single intrepid class ship, cut off from assistance. … Unless of course some unexpected rival power suddenly appears, just about equal in power so that it's a cold war of spies and intrigue or a more powerful foe appears that can only be defeated by innovative out of the box thinking and a hail mary pass when all hope seems lost. … It's tradition.
Great video. Also, STO has Cardassians akin to post-war naval sailors in the Middle and Renaissance Ages, pirates. They are True Way Cardassians, not clones, but the same in origin... sailors no longer needed and looking for work, turning to crime.
In a post scarcity future letting in everyone is fine and dandy. Except we don’t live in a post scarcity world. Even the Feds keep those who can’t assimilate into their culture out.
That's probably more mutual. The Klingon Empire is the Federationss' (generally speaking) longest standing ally and they blatantly refused any offer to join. They didn't want to be a part of the Federation. They didn't want their culture changed, and they didn't want the Federation to blend too much with then, either. A few good drinking buddies, good wartime allies, but nothing worth changing their civilisation over. I'm sure many other cultures saw the Federation the same way.
The fate of the cardassians ALWAYS reminds me of germany after WW2... And that the US helped to rebuild it, just like the Federation supposedly did with cardassia.
Yeah but Germany became an economically self-sufficient power with an average strength military but a strong major economy that allows Germany to exert economic and political influence across Europe. Cardassia on the other hand will be almost completely reliant on the Federation for support whereas Germany does not need economic aid from the US to support themselves.
I see the wounded Federation doing little to help Cardasia rebuild, just like they did nothing to stop Klingon aggression against the Cardasians. I do see Cardasia needing a post world war style reconstructionism, or it would be a continued issues of a failed state in the Alpha quadrant, more like North Korea; isolated and paranoid propagandists... a pressure cooker ready to explode, and Bajor, a Federation protectorate, would be within shrapnel range. I believe it will be up to the Ferengi to be the post WWII traders, that help bring nations together after the war. They were the only ones not "really involved" in the conflict, and the damages that they suffered was the liberation of half of their population... all the more reason to form societies of Ferengi that can't Ferengi good on Frenganor (a.k.a. those men that can not compete with women at home), to go out and expand into alien territories... including Cardasia and the Federation. Maybe I'm racist, but I can see having a Ferengi quartermaster, or as a trade diplomat, becoming a near necessity on Federation ships. The expansion of the Federation over the next couple of centuries should include the challenges of including the trade, cultures, information, and products; brought to it by an ever expanding and interconnecting Ferengi Trade Commission (FTC), as both a unifier of the Alpha quadrant, as well as a disruptor of regular trusted ways of doing things... The other saving grace would be if Bajor was able to form a coalition with Cardasia, that celebrated their common history, and focused on cultural interchange through satisfying common needs; going through a type of Hellenistic classical era, where individual worlds and colonies would have a type of individual nationalism, with a flavor of regional multiculturalism through trade and a shared cause of post-apocalyptic rebuilding.
@@trekkienzl2862 I think in Europe today, Germany is seen more like the Federation, although with a demilitarized Starfleet: Starfleet/Bundeswehr all but dismantled as an effective fighting force, while peaceful expansion through interstellar/-national cooperation is running rampant.
I find your claim that the Cardassians were becoming an equal power on par with the Klingons or Federation in the 2360s and 2370s dubious. Remember, a strong, self-sufficient power doesn't need to sell artifacts to fund a war effort. They were what Dukat feared, a third rate power, but one that kept on selling it's treasures to act like a first rate one. It was only with the Military in command and the Obsidian Order there to suppress dissent that things continued. After the Obsidian Order was taken away, there was a civilian revolution only months afterward. Notice how the Romulan Empire suffered no such fate, even though their Tal Shiar was severely weakened. You also seem to forget that during the war between the Klingons and the Federation, with the Cardassians also fighting the Klingons, that the Federation was providing severe humanitarian support to the Cardassians, as well as helping them rebuild their infrastructure with industrial replicators(that Eddington stole, but the Federation was helping). I do agree that the Klingons and the Cardassians are going to become Federation members in a few generations. The Romulans? That could be a while. if they follow the events of STO, I do see the Romulan Republic becoming a Federation ally, and then eventually a Federation member. But that would take generations, I think.
I tend to think of the Cardassians that way as well. Their misplaced arrogant pride would have them believe they were a first-rate super power, but their capability seemed to show otherwise. A super power wouldn't have needed an alliance with the Dominion in the first place, nor would they have needed to conquer and occupy a (comparably) poor planet like Bajor to plunder its resources. That they needed Bajor's resources just to survive, shows you what their status is.
There are also sources that say after the Dominion War, Garek became the Ambassador for Cardassia Prime and a founding member of a democratic government that gave the civilians freedom they'd never had. There were some that were opposed, but this allowed the Cardassians to open trade routes with other powers like the Federation and no longer be imperialistic. Much like at the end of World War II, when the Axis Powers Germany, Italy and Japan surrendered and democratic governments were installed. A system that none of them understood until after the war which allowed them to trade peacefully with the rest of the world and no longer be imperialistic. Also, don't forget that during the Dominion War, Damar gave up his position as Legate when he realized that the Dominion was the enemy all along and was leading the Cardassians to disaster. The reasons he started the Cardassian Rebellion and supplied the Alliance with a sample of the Breen energy dampening weapon.
eventually, the entire galaxy would be a 3 way war, Borg, vs Dominion, Vs alpha q + beta q federation, toos into that the sphere builders and you have the ingredients fr an epic war
It would be an interesting battle. We talked about t his on yesterdays livestream.. But I do wonder if Star Trek may be coming to a natural end? A disturbing but possibly necessary thing..
It has run it's course I think, we need only look at the the lastest series and movies to see which way the franchise is going and setting a series ahead in the timeline, means less room for discovery, the dominion in one direction the borg in the other. Story and narrtive wise, the franchise is hemmed in. Best to let it pass with some dignity. Maybe someone can revive it in decades to come. With holodeck tech!
hemmed in indeed. Unless they get a drive tech breakthrough that lets them explore another galaxy, then the Federation at the (non STO) end of the timeline has hit the point in a 4x game where explore and expand have ended, they're already exploiting their resources well. That leaves only two methods of expansion without a FTL tech breakthrough. Huge scale alliances (which in a sense the Federation already is, this would just be more of the same.) and large scale conquest. (which is hard to imagine the Federation doing.) Long term, either the Federation gets that tech breakthrough or it becomes a two sided 'everyone vs the Borg' for a while until the collective is broken (1/3 of the galaxy vs about 2/3 of the galaxy usually ends one way.) but then after the brief rebuilding period it becomes pretty apparent that the Federation and the Dominion end up staring at each other across a neutral zone. Again, no new breakthrough in FTL tech results in a galaxy in flames. Unless something breaks civilizations on a galaxy wide scale, like a Tyranid level extra-galactic invasion, Beast outbreak (Homeworld Cataclysm) or such.
+Sorain1 Precisely true and I don't think Star Trek needs that kind of avenue of exploration, it's always been about the brighter promise of tomorrow. Better to leave the promise, with a degree of mystery and "what if" still remaining, to be pondered over, rather than completeing the journey to a definative end. The internal functioning of the Fedration isn't all that interesting and it works because we don't have a clear plan or schemaic of what this utopian society looks like (how could we, if we knew what one looked like, we'd build one for real! Lets accept no poor imitations, but only mild allusions, in our Star Trek, try to exlpain it and it will all come apart) As to a cold war or galactic conflict, we have other franchises better suited to exploring such things, without breaking the fundamental concept and nature of Star Trek in order to tell those stories. No, Star Trek is done, by virtue of only having a little more left to give and sometimes, taking your hand out of the cookie jar, while there are still some cookies left, is better than eating all the cookies. There's something special in the moment between, possibly more cookies one day and NO MORE COOKIES EVER!
I can definitely see your scenario coming to pass, that is for sure. However, Cardassia becoming a member world of the Federation, that I'm not so sure about. I think perhaps the relationship would more resemble the post-war relationship between the US and Japan, except for the absence of a Federation military governor parallel to MacArthur. Instead the Federation would likely help the Cardassians build a civilian government, likely inviting members of the Cardassian dissident movement to play a major role -- there is a book about Garak in which he become president of the post-war Cardassian Union, and I'd love to see him in that role, I want a post-war series so bad! -- and it is worth remembering that in the Alpha Quadrant map, the Cardassian territory is near the Breen, and the Sheliak Corporate, both of whom would still be adversaries of the Federation. The Cardassian Union, much like post-war Japan, or, in another sense, like Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, et cetera, could be set up as a sort or independent buffer state allied with the Federation, but not a member of it. Perhaps it could also turn out to be something like post-war Finland, meaning independent, and partial to the Federation, but also capable of serving as a sort of mediator between the Federation, and the Breen Confederacy, or the Sheliak Corporate, or other smaller yet ambitious Alpha Quadrant powers. As for resources, I don't think future Cardassian expansion is out of the question. I could see a disgruntled Breen, angry that their people died for nothing, and they got none of what the Dominion promised them, choosing to attack the weakened Cardassia, and possibly trying to reclaim Cardassian territory lost to the Klingons. With Federation support the Cardassians could hopefully claim some resource rich Breen territory. Mind you, this is all my bias because I do not want Cardassia to become a Federation world, I want it to be a Federation ally, but an ally like the Klingons, meaning totally independent with its own culture, and identity. I love the Cardassians, they're my favorite species outside the Federation, and they're far from irredeemable in my eyes. Under military rule, which was born of necessity, they have been subjected to a gross tyranny. However, with a civilian government I could see them becoming more free, and liberalized, yet still maintaining their edge, their will to fight, and their identity, something like the Federation, but with a set of steel balls. I also believe that the territories seized by the Klingons due to changing infiltration should be returned to Cardassia after the war to shore up its resources so the Federation need not expend so much rebuilding Cardassia because they'll need to aide the Romulans, and hopefully assist in the establishment of a Roman, I mean Romulan Republic. Cardassia would be an extremely advantageous regional ally to the Federation, but it would be so sad to see them join the Federation, and become all weak, and pacified... unless of course they ended up joining Starfleet en masse the way humans do so that they could be a part of the Federation, and rather than losing their strength, they could bring that strength to the Federation the same way humanity does. Most Federation world's live under human protection, the Federation is like a cosmic NATO with a central government. I would be happy to see Cardassia join if the Cardassians end up becoming the second dominate group providing military/exploratory support to the Federation. That would actually be fucking awesome, like having my cake, and eating it to. Just imagine, a post war series in which Starfleet crews are like 50% human, 35% Cardassian, and 15% other Federation species, and the Cardassians manage to embrace Federation ideals with open arms the way Japan embraced democracy, and liberalism after WWII, but they also manage to retain their strength, and courage by lending themselves to the service of the Federation in the same way they lent themselves to their own governments. The Never Ending Sacrifice, only this time it is a sacrifice for the freedom, and brotherhood of all species as equals as per Federation ideals. In terms of an independent Cardassia though, they could always look to the Ferengi for resources, just something to note.
I'm pretty sure that the Dominion would turn against the Cardassians if they won the war. Remember what the female changeling told Garak: "They're dead, You're dead, Cardassia is dead. Your people were doomed the moment they attacked us."
@@dogkungfu8510 no she was being 100% honest. You left off the ending of the quote “your people were doomed the moment they attacked us”. So the Founders already wrote them off and was just going to use the Until no longer needed.
@@JemHadar422 threats are not facts. There were survivors from the Romulan/Cardie fleet. We see them later when Worf and Garek get captured. If the Founders were so vindictive, why keep them alive? Because the Founders aren't stupid. Crew from that fleet survived. Garek survived. Cardassia survived. She was posturing and you treat her threats as 100% accomplished fact. The Dominion would have done whatever was in the best interest of the Founders if they won the war. What do they gain by such vindictiveness? The Cardies switched sides and were willing to be cannonfodder. They submitted. What message does punishing them send to the rest of that side of the galaxy? "You might as well resist til your complete destruction, because if you resisted Dominion control at all ever you will be wiped out anyway." There has to be some incentive to becoming 'loyal' citizens of the Dominion, even if it is just survival as slaves. Is the Dominion going to punish the whole Alpha and Beta quadrants for resisting being conquered? The female founder was playing mind games with Garek and it worked on you.
@@JemHadar422 you are basically saying they would do the same to the Romulans, the federation, the klingons, etc. They weren't even that brutal in the gamma quadrant. The Founders want to bring Order to Chaos. And even they know that at a certain point petty vindictiveness only invites more chaos. The Founders would be quite happy with total submission. If they got that, they wouldn't intentionally invite chaos back into that just for petty revenge. It would tell the whole galaxy that even total submission will be punished which would lead directly to more chaos.
@@dogkungfu8510 i is respectfully disagree. I think the Founders were going to wipe out the Cardassians as soon as they had won. The points is don’t f@$& with the founders. The idea of attacking the founder homewold was Tain’s big idea.
It's worth noting that, metachronologically DS9 episode 1 occurs IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING Picard's 4 light fiasco. So basically Picard goes from being mercilessly tortured by the Caucasians, to single-handedly saving Bajor from the Cardassians with Patrick Stewart's amazing acting skills, to being given the backhand, by the person he put in charge of reaching out to the other victims of Cardassian cruelty, for something Picard had no control over.
Having watched the last few episodes of Picard it appears that the Federation turned inward not long after Romulus' destruction. So far we don't know anything about the Cardassians, but I wouldn't count them out so easily. Keep in mind they got a lot of upgraded Dominion technology and while they retreated back to the Gamma Quadrant there would still be a lot of equipment left behind. Then there is the matter of the other powers. With the Romulan internal strife I think the Klingons would be more interested in antagonizing a long time enemy over the Cardassians so both of these empires would leave Cardassia alone and then there is the aforementioned Federation turning inward. If they're not paying attention the Cardassians could fall back into old habits or might emerge better.
I agree toward the end of deep space nine the Romulans and Federation were the true winners while everyone else , except the Fergi allaince were beaten up badly , which means even Cardassians would have to join the Federation or Romulan empire, which the Romulans would be as cruel as the Klingons would have been if they were able to gain total victory befor the Dominion Wars started.
50 years behind The Federation Huh , .... makes sense , I always wondered how Miles O'Brien a Transporter Chief transitioned so quickly to Head Engineer ' of an unknown Space station ' nearly 10 times the size of the Enterprise " Oh well , at least that's an explanation I can have for myself .
He was a Chief Petty Officer and the station was initially a frontier outpost with minimal weaponry and staffing. After the wormhole opened Starfleet decided to leave him in charge as they lacked engineering officers that understood the modifications he made to the Cardassian technology. The station was also governed in tandem with the Bajorans , who were the majority of staff
I doubt the Cardassian’s would join the Federation, but certainly be a strong ally of them. Cardassian’s are a very proud race and like to be the head of their own state
Interesting to see this after having played Star Trek Online for about a year and a half. I think part of why they mentioned going back to being explorers again very late in the game is that while the Federation did get a lot of its crap kicked in ... there's nothing like an outside force trying to invade to convince the Alpha and Beta quadrant powers to get along MUCH better.
How about an episode featuring non Section 31 agents, assests, and sympathizers. I always believed that Sisko while not a full blown memeber was a sympathizer due to his hatred of the Borg... he always seemed to exist on the militaristic side of Star Fleet
Awesome video and agreed on all points, including the far-fetched Romulan idea! Hadn't ever considered that before. An intriguing point and I could see them doing that. Probably not, but it isn't completely unbelievable.
In regards to Romulus being destroyed. That would throw off the Prime Timeline of Star Trek TNG, DS9, and even the events of Star Trek: Nemesis where Picard and the Enterprise-E fight Shinzon right at Romulus Doorstep. The Romulan homeworld was never so much as mentioned as destroyed in any of the canon series or films outside of the first Kelvin timeline movie. Yet we have to see where the next two star trek movies that have announced will take the Kelvin timeline.
It was actually discussed being destroyed in the Canon series - The first part of the movie is canon. The destruction of romulus has been confirmed by CBS, Paramount, and such.
In the Videogame Star Trek Online, Those who were working with Spock on reunification before the Dominion War/Destruction of Romulus eventually form a Romulan Republic which opposes Remnants of the Romulan Star Empire (essentially the Tal Shiar) and eventually starts forming alliances with both the federation and Klingon empires making them more powerful than the Star Empire. I like to think that this is the ultimate fate of the Romulans but it would be nice to get another series/movie set in the prime universe after the events described by Spock in the initial JJ verse Trek movie.
what would make something interesting is a power who to repay the Bajorans for some kindness wipe out Cardassians. scene: General Kira in her office gets notified about some strange reading so they investigate together with UFP and find out Cardassua Prime no longer has any organic matter, nothing is alive down there not even bacteria. it is utterly lifeless due to a device beamed onto it's surface
Am I the only person seeing the horrific CGI mess at 0:18, it's like the defiant's outer components with a small ship in the center and significant clipping
I think the cardassians will make a comercial trade with the ferengi remember that they are considered as the same power and tecnology of the federation
did you really agree with me or you just be ironic? (its sometimes hard to know), but i hope you make videos about de ferengi, they are suprised remarkable and have the same tecnology and power that the federation but are always neutral in the wars, but in the dominion war they were fundamental to win the war
@@questaoolavo2346 with Rom as the Grand Nagus it might be less likely-he has a Bajoran wife and unlike many before him.actually cares about his friends and people.
@@questaoolavo2346 I dont know because the Ferengi even during the Dominion war had seen many social changes such as women's rights. So how this changed government is worthy further study because I see even ferengi might in some distant future be more pliable to join the Federation
I like what you say upto the point of Cardassia never being able to provide for themselves again. The Cardassians werr proud and would rebuild Cardassia and the few colonies that remained. They may be religated to a minor more regional power but a power none the less.
Lore Reloaded I disagree. Japan went from a humiliated, bankrupt and defeated nation with a destroyed infrastructure (including two cities vaporized) To a major economic powerhouse and technological innovator in less than 35yr. And Japan has virtually no natural resources and cannot enen feed itself. It accomplished this by the drive and charater of its people and culture. Yes Japan recived large amounts of aid from the USA. Just as Cardassia would need assistance from the Federation. But the drive and sense of personal sacrafice for the good of the nation enabled Japan to recover just as it would help Cardassia.
I doubt *very* much that the Cardassians were ever anything more than cannon fodder to the Dominion. Dukat forged the alliance with them out of convenience and desperation, and I don't think he was savvy enough to realise they didn't care about Cardassia.
Interesting Theory, I like your thoughts. But, in my opinion, what is most likely to happen is : Cardassia being occupied and torn to sectors just like Germany after WW2, Entering a cold war status.
The cardassian Union cause great pains and suffering throughout it years of oppression and aggressive expansion. Let's look at key points in their own history. Cardassia once was very much like the Bajor. Deeply spiritual people with rich history in Art and Culture. Unfortunately, because their world was Poor in Natural Resources, they suffered from massive famines and rapid disease. Soon military powers took control, sold off any artifacts value for war effort and building, started annexing any worlds within their sight starting with Bajor itself. Coming into conflicts with the Federation and Klingon Empire. In other words, cardassian troubles stem from a hunger and thirst that has never been truly resolved in a proper way.
After the Dominion War the Federation would have sent huge amounts of none military aid to the Cardassian Union to assist them in rebuilding, far more than they sent Bajor after the first occupation ended. Cardassia was basically turned into ruble. IMO some twenty years after the end of the Dominion War the Cardassian Union would formally join the Federation.
An alternative hypothesis: the Federation would make the Cardassians dependent on them and would impose a new puppet government, removing all the members of the old order (including all the competent administrators). This would cause an unstoppable tailspin for the Cardassian economy, and they'd see the Federation's cumulative actions as the sole cause of their current problem (which it pretty much was). Far from making them love their new Federation masters, it would make them extremely bitter and hateful toward it. Even without that last part (the destruction of their economy), they'd still hold a bitter grudge against the Federation for putting them in this position and wiping out their empire; they'd probably come to think that the Federation actually secretly orchestrated the whole thing. Also, I love how the Feds and Klingons basically get a pass for being cunts, yet all their enemies are booed for doing the same shit or even for having the gall to dare stand up against them. Perfect display of The Designated Hero trope.
I think you are wrong. I think that the Federation would build up the Cardassian Union, much like we did with Japan after WW2. The Cardassians would change, but they would be self sufficient in the end. Long term they might even join the Federation. Keep in mind when Cardassia took all of Bejors resources the Federation came in and helped them rebuild and get back on their feet. They would have done the same with Cardassia.
UFP total victory actually makes a lot of sense. All the independent powers would be so weakened by the war they would have to join with rest of the galactic community in peaceful co-existence. The Federation would become the most dominant power-structure in the galaxy, spanning the Alpha and Beta quadrants.
I think both Lore and Kyle Sawyer make valid points. The Cardassians certainly had the potential to become a greater power in the quadrant, and arguably immediately after their joining the Dominion they were. Trouble was, they only had a brief window of time to make that potential reality and for various reasons they failed to do so.
wright534 can you post a link to that Kyle Sawyer content, I'd be interested in seeing it. When I just did a search I just found youtube channels on 4 wheel driving dune buggies and aquariums.
You’ve regularly mention the destruction of Romulus from its suns exploding, but wouldn’t those events be from the kelvin timeline? I’ve always assumed in the core timeline spock succeeded in preventing the Romulans sun from going supernova.
No, those events happen in Prime.. Kelvin occurs after the destruction of Romulus in the Prime. There would be no kelvin timeline if Romulus hadn't exploded.. in the prime timeline. I don't like the plot with romulus being destroyed.. I think that's a horrible piece of writing. My opinion doesn't impact canon fact t hough ;P
To be fair, it was never confirmed categorically on screen that “Spock Prime” was really from the Prime timeline. Although if he’s not, then his timeline is very similar to it.
I've often been curious about Cardassia's so called resource scarcity. It's never really been explored that much, but we know that Cardassia Prime was a fertile world until it's ecological system changed which caused massive starvation and disease and consequently the military took over because the civilian leadership couldn't handle these problems. Now while that is true of Cardassia Prime the Cardassian Union was a vast empire of many star systems and planets. The pragmatic solution would be to relocate as many Cardassians to habitable worlds, but it appears that Central Command was content to keep things as they were except with them in power. My theory is this was deliberate. If the military dispersed the population throughout the union then the crisis would've abated and the people wouldn't need the military to be so involved in t heir lives. Central Command and presumably the Obsidian Order knew this would happen so they created a constant state of scarcity and paranoia so that the people would always need them. However, this also made Cardassians vulnerable because to massive disruptions because when the Klingons hit their resources hard they couldn't feed and maintain such a population which forced them to turn to Gul Dukat and the Dominion.
The Federation are very much like the Borg, they assimilate all around them, and they adapt, the only difference is the time it takes and the degree it is done. The Federation can't adapt on the spot, like the Borg can, but they can adapt to a much greater degree than the borg can, to the point that the Collective is rendered powerless The Federation Assimilate all around them eventually, they bring all into the fold, and what's more they can make them do it in such a way that they think its the best way forward, no need to force it, just give them time and they'll tie their own noose
I really like this analysis. It makes the most sense to me pertaining to the events shown on the tv shows. Do you have a background in history or something? Because this sounds like something from an analysis of the countries of Europe Post-WWII. Keep up the good work!
I know the show was based on Wolrd War 2 and have been studying that. My background is actualy in Analysis. I was an Analyst for a Multi-Million (may be Billion now) company.. So analyzing things unreasonably is what I used to get paid to do.
I think that once the other Alpha Quadrant powers would be pacified, the Dominion would crush the Cardassians in retaliation for attempting to bomb their homeworld.
I don't think the Cardassians knew about the Danube class runabouts or had stolen the designs from Utopia Planetia. What Dukat stated to Sisko, while they were in the runabout together, was that Cardassia was years ahead in this kind of design for a small short range warp capable craft. Which if you think about it is most likely true. I mean Starfleet had only started to create Danube class runabouts at the start of DS9. While Cardassians had already been producing those type of vessels for decades.
There are several things that was good about DS9. First it took Star Trek back to more real iteration of reality. Humans where not always friendly with one another or even with every other species and a few good words wouldn't just smooth things over. It showed that if you do not fight a war to win then you fight to lose and piss off your own people, hence the creation of the maquis. It showed that there has to be some form of currency, or trade to get things needed that the Federation both wanted and needed. It showed that religion isn't stupid and actual comes from a strong foundation of beliefs, this was probably not intentional but it can be seen through out the show as the Bajoins never really lost faith in their god. It further showed that to win a war you have to embrace the full ugliness of war and become what you hate, a killer. No tactic is deemed too extreme, no price too high to pay especially if you lose you get the great future of being slaves.
The Dominion would not treat the Cardassians poorly for no reason, and the Cardassians "usefulness" would not simply begin to wane for no reason. The Dominion has many races under their control which are treated very well and even allowed autonomy as long as they contribute. The Cardassians were going to administer the Alpha Quadrant on behalf of the Dominion, which would be extremely useful as the Dominion territory is all the way in the Gamma quadrant, with no way to reliably send messages between the two quadrants outside of physicaly sending someone through an unpredictable wormhole nobody understands.
I don't think the Cardassians were anywhere near the Federation. They did catch on a bit but they were not able to handle the Defiant at all. The Defiant spanked their most advanced ship while taking only minimal damage and Riker was confident that they could take on three of their ships with no problem.
Its clear that sometime after the episode 'Defiant' and when the Klingons attack Cardassia, that major economic and political changes were weakening the Cardassians. All through TNG and even through the first part of DS9, Cardassia was a powerful empire that was on par with most other civilizations. It wasn't just th Obsidian Order falling apart and being taken out by the Dominion. The Federation had fought wars with Cardassia in the past and never defeated them, they simply created treaties to end the fighting. The Klingons though were able to rip through their lines and reach Cardassia Prime and win, in the length of a single DS9 episode. Clearly something off screen took place that severely weakened them militarily.
I've been wondering if it was possible for Cardassia to rise from the ashes in a post Dominion War climate to become the power of the Alpha Quadrant under Garak's leadership. I think it is possible if Cardassia were to acquire two resources: The healing energy of the Briar Patch and Shinzon's green death energy and I see both being possible. Worf was present in _Insurrection_ and I can see him telling the DS9 crew of his adventures and Bashir would not let this amazing resource waste on just 630 people. I can totally see him telling Garak about it if he couldn't get it himself. Shinzon's death green energy from _Nemesis_ is really hyped up in the novelization since it's a planet killer and since it's not biological base isn't considered bio-mutagenic weapons so it can circumvent treaties. There are numerous possibilities for Garak to acquire it after Romulus' destruction. So by offering healing rays to enchant worlds to join the new Cardassia Union and with the death green energy as a deterrent, it is feasible for the spoon heads to actual conquer the Alpha Quadrant not with the stick but with the carrot. It's an insidious strategy but definitely fitting for Garak's character.
Not the galaxy, a tiny segment of the galaxy. There are most certainly other powers. The dominion is still at large in the delta quadrent, the borg in gamma, and who knows what else
I never understood why the Federation didn't make more ships like the Defiant. I guess they were staying within the letter of the law with respect to the Khitomer accords, but they certainly violated the spirit. Is it because they thought the Borg were gone after Picard killed the Borg Queen? I am an absurdly poor strategist, and even I know the folly of having one being whose loss can cripple the collective. The Defiant was small and probably wouldn't have taken the same resources as larger ships. Is it due to the lack of desire to Militarize?
They did. The Defiant was the prototype and was unique for its cloaking device and ablative armor as it wasn't standard yet, but Starfleet began mass producing warships like the defiant and the aquira... acira... whatever. We see a few in the battles of DS9, but the best evidence is actually in Voyager. In the episode message in a bottle, we see Starfleet send an Aquira and two Defiants after the Prometheus and three Romulan warbirds. Finally, after the defiant proper was destroyed, Sisco got the Sao Paulo/Defiant II not too long after. Starfleet produces ships quickly, but not that quickly. They had one to spare. We also see the defiant class in Daniels time... ship manuel from the 31st century. Clearly the defiant class lasted for a long time. I would guess becoming more escort role then pure warship
I see the Cardassians giving up territory to the Klingons and to the Federation (aka the Maquis territories) while their populations retreat back to rebuild Cardassia Prime. The Federation would immediately send in medical and humanitarian aid to the Cardassians; maybe there is a special medical fleet command (such as Starfleet Directive Medical Emergency One) where all free medical ships would aid a planet(s) in distress. While the Federation is not seeking new territory, the Cardassian Union cannot exist on its own and (within a couple decades of living with Federation assistance,) decides to dissolve and join the Federation (allowing some Cardassian worlds to become independent, maybe a micro Cardassian Union). The ruin of their government (along with the show of Federation generosity) would turn many to adopt their earlier cultural values and see joining the Federation as the next step for a proud people.
As you say it's likely that both Cardassia, and the Klingons would join the Federation fairly quickly after the war, as both are devastated by the losses, and with Klingon leadership after the war looking much more favourably upon the Federation, and having again proven to the klingons that despite their pacifistic stance, Starfleet is filled with honorable warriors. Cardassia has little choice, as they're completely dependant on Federation aid. The Romulans emerge after the war with big losses, but still a strong independent power, but with a more amicable relationship with the Federation, and a Section 31 agent on the continuing comittee, it's likely relations will begin to be more normal, and maybe many years later they will join too, but not as fast, since Romulus have always favoured isolationism.
Not sure how an Alpha Quadrant united under a Federation banner equals a victory for the Dominion. Yes, they wanted a unite Alpha Quadrant, but they wanted it united under the Dominion, not the Federation.
Well we know from Canon that eventually the Klingons became full members of the federation, so I cannot see why the cardassians would not in time. Even in this century former enemies of world war 2, are now close allies and friends. I would assume that they would have joined together, I can speculate that the romulans may well have held out for sometime until the hobus event. It seems to be a trend in star trek, where by great disasters or conflicts have United former enemies.
What canon says the Klingons eventually become members of the Federation? I could see them staying allies, but not a member. The Cardassian's joining the UFP would be logical after the war. The destruction of Romulus would probably see Starfleet deploy cloaking devices in at least some of its ships.
Either than divine intervention, there's nothing really stopping the Dominion from crossing the wormhole and steamrolling the Alpha/Beta quadrant. Only a small fraction of the Dominion's total military assets were even made available during the war. The Cardassian has more or less been destroyed, Klingon were probably going to be a 2nd rate power going forward, the Romulans had internal turmoil and the Federation still did suffer greatly during the conflict. The Alpha quadrant better keep praying the Prophet keeps the wormhole closed regarding Dominion vessels.
@@suryanarayan2032 I believe there was one episode where they wanted to collapse it, but there was some changeling or something that reversed the effect and made the wormhole incapable for being collapsed.
The cardassians would become members of the federation and that's a good thing eventually all species in the alpha quad would be apart of the federation
The Romulan's are based on the Romans. Two legendary founders of Rome "Romulus" and "Remus", vs two founding planets in the Romulan Prime system "Romulus" and "Remus". Descended of a people with a long, proud logical and violent history named after a "Latin/Etruscan/Roman God" known as "Vulcan", but "Hephaistos" in Greek. But my point is, the Vulcan-Romulan Dynamic is the "Greco-Roman" Dynamic. The Cardasians would probably be based on the "Carthaginians" Anyways, Hollywood recycles. Not just in star trek. The incredible Hulk was based on Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde. The Lion King was Hamlet
The Lion King is actually closer to the original Horus myth in a way. I know they took inspiration from Hamlet... but they flipped lots of character traits around. Simba is practically the opposite of Hamlet. Same with Sarabi and Gertrude.
When Janeway in the Voyager King back from the other from the Delta quadrant the technology brought back what would happen with all that with the Federation share it with the Klingons or keep it to themselves and what about the Borg do they still exist or did they finally collapse
Before the Kljgon War I put the Union as a secondrate power in miltary THey were considerably upgrading their Galors and launched the Keldon Class. I don't blame Dukat and if they had on with him still in charge I thinki it be a long time before the Union was fully absorbed. ANd the Difference between the Obsidian Order andthe Tal Shair is numbers. the Tal Shair had greater numbers so while the AMbush wiped out the Order it only damaged the Tal Shair. Greatly but not fatally.
I think it weakened the tal shiar to allow them to be coopted by an enemy intelligence agency..but yea. The Shiar survived that ('survived') the obsidian order did not.
Sure everyone would be federation but that doesn’t mean the founders would be in control even if they infiltrated the higher powers. There would still be a republic style governing system rather than the dictatorship the dominions want. That’s always been the true hurdle.
Spoiler: First episode of DSC season 4 features a descendent of a Cardassian-human relationship as Federation President. So them joining the federation sooner or later is not unlikely.
I'm reminded of Edmonton's speech to Sisko right after leaving to join the Maquis. He talks about how the Federation is worse than the Borg, because the at least the Borg tell you what they're doing. The Federation assimilates you without you even realizing it, and they make you think it was your idea and choice the whole time. Just something to think about...
Could you elaborate about the cardassians having the plans for a starfleet runabout even before going into mass production? The scene you’re referring to only has the following lines by dukat: DUKAT: Is that a ramscoop control or a deflector grid panel? Just curious. It really doesn't matter. Cardassian pursuit vessels are years ahead of this design. And: SISKO: The photon launcher is there. DUKAT: I know. I knew all about these controls before I ever came aboard Therefore I’m curious how you came to your claim.
It's a reasonable claim *if* you take Dukat at his word, which I don't. Dukat is a terrible source of information and I think it's more likely that he was just bullshitting. With Section 31 skulking about, I seriously doubt they could have got spies into Utopia Planetia, even *with* their penchant for cosmetic surgery.
I'm on my phone and only answers comments here and there.. I'll be happy to address this the next time I get to my computer. Like Michael Spence said - a lot of this (though not all) is based on how truthful you believe Dukat to be. At this point, I relied on him more than I possibly should have ;P
So while I disagree with a few of your points, I agree with your conclusion. (This is becoming a pattern). There's a few things you leave out though. First, the most likely leader of Cardassia after the Dominion War is Garak. He's basically the Cardassian version of Shakar. Given the massacre and the decimation of their infrastructure, I think the most likely way for them to support themselves (beyond Federation charity, which they would accept, but despise) would be to recreate the Obsidian Order and to rent out their agents to the remaining powers. The Klingons were severely weakened as well, and many of them would want to renew the war on Cardassia to help make them strong again, but with Martok (and Worf sort of) in control of the Empire, that wouldn't get far. The Ferengi are in a position to help Cardassia as well, and there are probably plenty of Cardassians left with scientific and military experience that they could hire. So I think you'd see a major diaspora of Cardassia talent across the Alpha Quadrant in an effort to help gather resources for reconstruction. The questions for the Galaxy now are, 1) How much damage did the main body of the Dominion take (in the Gamma Quadrant). There are no major battles there and it's entirely possible that they will be in fighting shape very soon, if Odo can't convince them to be peaceful. 2) Can the Federation survive peace? Too often you see when an empire becomes large and bloated, it succumbs to infighting. At this point in history, you're likely to see a conflict between the more warlike an the more pacifist members of the Federation in conflict with each other. So how will that end?
There was a very strong faction you missed bringing into this that is the Breen. Very curious on your thoughts on how they fit into this and your conclusion left them out even though tjey are a part of the alpha quadrant.
I actually have an entire video dedicated to the breen (Though I got one fact on it very wrong - they were at the signing). You can check it out it's here: th-cam.com/video/t_dGgO1a264/w-d-xo.html
Simply due to the Cardassians' highly nationalistic culture, I think that even as a Federation member state the Cardassian Union would probably insist on a degree of autonomy. Essentially, they would become a protectorate of the United Federation of Planets. Kinda like how Puerto Rico is a protectorate of the US and how Hong Kong is one to China.
Quark: I want you to try something for me. Take a sip of this.
Garak: What is it?
Quark: A human drink. It's called root beer.
Garak: I don't know.
{ Garak scowls/snears }
Quark: Come on. Aren't you just a little bit curious?
{ Garak sighs, and cautiously drinks... }
Quark: What do you think?
Garak: It's vile.
Quark: I know. It's so bubbly and cloying and happy.
{ Garak smiles slowly as Quark speaks }
Garak: Just like the Federation.
Quark: But you know what's really frightening?
If you drink enough of it, you begin to like it.
Garak: It's insidious.
Quark: Just like the Federation.
#4.2 (ep 474) "The Way of The Warrior"
-Quite apt don't you think *@Lore Reloaded*
im a root beer guy
Barqs Mug or A&W ?
Barq's... but occasionally A&W (though I'm not sure if there's a difference between the Canadian version and the US one). Generally speaking, though, I'm a cola guy. Also coffee.
@@Dr.Westside A&W
This pretty much sums up my own feelings about the Federation. Don't get me wrong, I share the Federation's values for the most part, individual rights, liberty, equality, and peaceful trade and cooperation. Likewise, if I had to live as just another Joe Citizen in one of the Alpha Quadrant powers, I'd choose the Federation. However, the Federation is just so hokey, and sappy, and sometimes it seems like their dedication to peace does them a disservice, like they wait far too long to prepare for war when faced with a threat. The Dominion is the perfect example. They should have started mass producing new ships, new arms and weapons, and they should have had Section 31 infiltrating deep into Dominion territory, studying, and trying to steal Jem'Hadar ships, the moment they started hearing the rumors about the Dominion, and it's violent, tyrannical nature. Had they been a little less naïve about it, countless lives could have been saved. This is actually one reason I would like to see the Cardassians become not only members of the Federation, but a driving force within it. The Cardassians wisdom about power, violence, and determining what is, and is not a threat, would be a major asset to the Federation, and would help it be a little less naïve, and a little better prepared to face what's out there. The Federation needs to be a little less bubbly, and a little more ballsy. That's why I loved DS9 so much. Their naïve, hippy nature meant they weren't prepared to face the Dominion, but, they fought hard, and honorably. Remember the siege of AR-558, or whatever it was called, those Starfleet soldiers had balls of steel. Even Klingons would have been impressed with them. So we know the Federation has balls, O just wish they'd whip them out, and show them more often, lol.
You know what's really frightening? If you drink enough of it, you begin to like it.
Just like the Federation
Root beer.... yuck
Andrew Thorne, *drinks a glass of frothy Federation*
Two great characters explaining in simple terms, the way how the federation assimilates other cultures.
I tend to agree with this, inevitable the Federations absorbs the other powers. With the Romulus Supernova that Empire is crippled and Cardassians are never the same after the Dominion War. That leaves the Klingons, after the Dominion War, not unrealistic that Worf may become high chancellor one day which could lead to Federation membership
Oh I doubt Worf would ever by chancellor, by choice anyway. I mean we don't see a better fighter anywhere. Plus he is just an ambassador. That being said, he may have a different role to play. Being the brother and friend of Chancellor Martok who is very much on the side of the Federation, he may make Worf the arbiter of succession as Kimpec did with Picard. This would lead to a cascade effect of pro federation chancellors whose arbiters are pratically hand picked by Starfleet which would most definitely lead to the empire joining the Federation. Or at the least a direct association
@@zachzent8287 plus, after the Dominion War, the economy of the Klingon Empire had become fragile and virtually collapse due to the cost of war and it takes them at least 10 years to recover and they probably need the Federation's assistance for trade and resources. In one episode of ST ENT, Daniels said that the Klingons may even joined the Federation in the 26th-27th century
As for Cardassia, with so many the people there, died. Of course they need assistance from outside powers and its probably from the Federation itself as other powers like the Romulan Star Empire and Klingon Empire has their own struggle and issue to take care off after the war. But Cardassia becoming a member of the Federation is highly unlikely, because Bajor, assuming it becomes a Federation member after the war, would probably rejected this and would ask the Federation council to reconsider Cardassia's application as majority of Bajorans still feel their hatred and anger vs their former occupiers, not to mention, half of the planet's resources have stripped out by the cardassians
4:35 The Dominion always had a plan to exterminate the Cardassian people.. The Female Founder says this to Garak in one episode, before the start of the war, when she says something to the effect of "Your people are dead, they died the moment they made a move against us." Similarly, I think Dukat and Damar always kind of had the assumption that the Cardassians and the Dominion would possibly be enemies following the predicted defeat of the Federation, there is a little dialogue between the two of them about this I think during Sacrifice of Angels.. I assume Dukat's plan initially, was to use the overwhelming force of the Dominion to win a relatively quick and fast war over the Federation and possibly the Klingons, then following some consolidation, launch a surprise attack on the Dominion(an Alpha Quadrant wide "Pearl Harbor in space"), fortify the wormhole to prevent Dominion reinforcements from being sent and thus leave the Cardassians as the major power. I could see the Romulans being content to sign a non aggression pact with such a Cardassia. (addmittedly, I have NO idea how the hell Dukat or Damar could have thought such a plan could have succeeded, given the afore mentioned deficiencies in the Cardassian's overall ability to project power, as compared to other factions.. but given, the stated goal of the Female Changeling(extermination of the Cardassian people, due to the attack on the supposed Founder homeworld), I would hope the Cardassians summoned all of their space facist, martial traditions and rose to the occasion to supplant the Dominion following "Final Victory" and be able to hold onto at least Some of the territory won in this shorter, alternate Dominion War.
BTW, I have always Loved the idea of Dukat winning out over Sisko in the Fire Caves, commandeering that shuttlecraft and returning to Cardassia Prime.. Given Dukat's Pah Wraith, godlike powers, I always imagined him being able to reinvigorate his utterly defeated people(who still had a sizeable and moderately powerful fleet of galor ships), and lead his nation to a final, hard fought victory over All of their enemies.. Imagine it.. Dukat, back in his gul armor uniform, with red demonic eyes, rallying the people on the ruined streets of Cardassia Prime, he gets a sympathetic squadron of galor ships to follow him(their power systems amplified by "demonic Pah Wraith magic", they retake Terok Nor(DS9). Once there, he issues a command to the Cardassian Union, and the fleets rally.. a battle ensues, the Federation Alliance is pushed back into Federation space(due to the Cardassian fleet being on the side of the Pah Wraiths.. (this had a similar effect during the war between the wormhole aliens in a previous episode.. the presence of the Pah Wraiths being in a better position over the Prophets, allowed for the Dominion forces to have better fortunes in battle; the dark gods living outside of time, in a higher dimension (they) were on their side.)
Following this, the Cardassians under a reinvigorated and demonic Dukat could build up whatever was left of the battle weary Cardassian fleets and push into Federation and Klingon space, taking the core of the "Alpha Quadrant" and then lead raids into the Romulan Empire, possibly making them see that a truce/non-aggression treaty was in the interests of both sides(possibly requiring a certain Remen faction to implement??). Following this, the Cardassians could contain the Breen and begin cloning captured Vorta, to be used as a mass producible slave labor force to rebuild the Cardassian Union and exploit the newly obtained conquests in the "core" of the "Alpha Quadrant". With the wormhole presumably under the control of the Pah Wraiths, fortifying the wormhole wouldn't even be necessary, added to this the entirety of the Dominion was about to collapse due to the disease the Founders had been exposed to due to the actions of Section 31. Putting all of this together, all Dukat would have to do is simply wait, then following the extinction of the Founders and Jem'Hadar, he could begin sending task forces of three galors each, into the Gamma Quadrant to begin colonizing and projecting Cardassian power in that region, following the power vacuum left by a suddenly nonexistent Dominion.
Just some of my thoughts that I have had in my head for about the past 15 years. I always liked Dukat and always imagined ways for him and his people to come out on top.
In the words of Garak. "IT'S INSIDIOUS!"
I would love to see a story about a United Alpha/Beta quadrant Federation vs the Borg Story on screen.
+Eric Darr It would have awful story and relationship elements. Sure it would have some spectacular space battles but I think, the Borg are better used as a seasoning, rather than the main course.
I would like to see a Star Trek in the future after ds9/voyager, with the cardies and Klingons as members of the Fed, Romulan Allies and Starfleet having cracked transwarp or quantam slip stream and exploring the rest of the galaxy. That way we get encounters with races from across the franchise, including the dominion and the borg and new races too. it would be cool.
+Titus It was believed to be, but that ended up not being the case. The Borg ended up launching a full-scale invasion of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants in 2381, and despite the combined efforts of the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, and pretty much every other Alpha and Beta Quadrant race, the Borg almost won. It took a Deus Ex Machina to prevent everyone from being assimilated/destroyed.
The neurolytic pathogen that Admiral Janeway infected the Borg with was eventually purged from the Collective, and this combined with the destruction of the transwarp network hub, the death of a Borg Queen, and the obliteration of Unimatrix 01, convinced the Borg that they could no longer tolerate the existence of the Federation. They would still assimilate, true, but that ultimately became a secondary goal. Their primary goal became the complete subjugation/destruction of the Federation. The Borg ended up sending an invasion force of roughly 7,000 Cubes, both regular and tactical variants, to seek out and destroy Earth once and for all.
It took a godlike race of beings to ultimately defeat the Borg once and for all, a literal Deus Ex Machina if I've ever heard, seen, or read of one.
+Titus No, DS9 is about the Dominion war and the buildup to it, and the Borg don't even appear except in flashbacks. What sergeantassassin referred to must be from secondary material. Probably one of the novel series.
It would make a great story, shame it's not canon.
@@sergeantassassin3425 is it cannon?
"Ahh yes...a house in the country,wife by your side and children playing at your feet.And above,flying in the breeze the flag of the Federation.....Charming...."
Here's a little headcanon/free speculation of mine regarding how the Cardassian Union could develop after the war.
The Obsidian Order is destroyed and the Central Command either likewise destroyed, expelled or transmuted into another form, the Cardassians would begin to rebuild with their new Detapa Council controlling everything, now integrating it's Intelligence and Millitary divisions into itself in an attempt to remove division among the Cardassian leadership. They could possibly rename themselves the Detapa Union to commemorate this and move away from the Cardassia everyone had come to resent.
As they rebuild, they are approached by the Federation multiple times, they accept token relief and infrastructural aid, but will only accept association status with the Federation, and not full membership, this is because the Cardassians have become paranoid about being manipulated and controlled by outside powers because of the Dominion war, a reflection of what happened to the Bajorans. The stranglehold of full authoritarian control is gone, but the Cardassians are not eternally vigilant against any attempts to control and oppress them by other powers, transforming them into fanatical egalitarians who are willing to fight.(again, reminiscent of the Bajorans).
The Cardassians are approached by the now reformed and flourishing Ferengi Union with offers of exclusive trade rights and sales priority of the things the Cardassians will need to rebuild, and eventually an alliance is formed, to the chagrin of the Federation. Somewhere down the line, remnants of the Obsidian Order, the Central Command and The True Way begin making attempts to attack and seize control of the Cardassian people in their moment of weakness, but are attacked and repelled by unlikely allies, rogue Jem'Hadar. They offer to throw in their lot with the rebuilding Cardassians and their Ferengi allies, professing to be "liberated" and now consider themselves virtuous crusaders who's goal is to remain free and fight oppression wherever they see it, to a fanatical, even suicidal degree at times. The rogue Jem'Hadar join the alliance.
At some point the Jem'Hadar take a great interest in genetic engineering to free themselves from the many genetic traits imposed upon them by the Founders, and eventually found a way to genetically alter the Vorta to "save" them, if they want it or not, from the control that has been forced upon them by the Founders, with the intention to eventually free more Jem'Hadar and Vorta from the thrall of the Dominion as a long-term goal of theirs. The Vorta join the alliance in a limited capacity.
Perhaps after much drama, the Bajorans reconcile with the now reformed Cardassians and now see them as kindred in a sort of "now you know how it feels" sort of way, and the Bajorans leave the Federation and join the Alpha Quadrant Alliance. Cardassians, Ferengi, Jem'Hadar, Vorta and Bajorans united, the alliance would at this point become a super power now called the Alpha Union, which would come to accept membership from yet more Alpha quadrant powers.
Also post war the Cardassians had to worry about former foes seeking payback, so they knew they needed the protection of a great power. Now being the vassal of the Klingons or Romulans isn't that pleasant and if they didn't go with the Federation there was the risk that the Bajorian members of the Federation (which is now important because of the wormhole and the strategic location) would push for a punitive policy towards Cardassia, perhaps throwing them to the Klingons as a favour to their warrior allies.
But as Federation members the Bajorians would be forced to play nice with their former occupiers, and may well end up in a situation similar to Germany and France, with both nations now very close allies, despite the actions of Germany towards France in the first half of the 20th century. Also the Klingons wouldn't harass their allies protectorate.
And the Cardassians would have something to offer the Federation as a people - cynicism. Cardassians would temper the (supposed, Section 31 *cough cough) idealism of humanity, leading to a more hard edged pragmatic Federation, especially if the Ferengi start joining in numbers (And a lot of female Ferengi may start joining, to escape the sexism of their own culture, and also to discuss fashion with human females -who are sick of the legacy sexism of the internet ;).
Imagine if Voyager, lost in the Delta quadrant, had a few openly Cardassians crewmembers (not counting Seska) to advise Janeway, don't tell the Kazons about replicators for example, and a Ferengi to handle trade negotiations for weapon upgrades (instead of a emotionally disturbed 7 of 9) and to annoy Neelix for comedy relief. Plus Ferengi are immune to psychic abilities.
Throw in a more militant Betazoid after the Dominion invasion leading to more full blooded Betazoids joining Starfleet, where their abilities as security officers are terrifying (Troi's mother stopped a bomb plot by casually reading the minds of those Mon Calamari rejects on the transperter pads) and they would makes cloaks totally useless as weapons officers, and what if they could read shield frequencies in the minds of enemy engineers (like in TNG generations movie with the bugged visor).
Long range exploration ship crews would be incredibly formidable. Then add in Klingon vigor and Romulan technology (Romulan deviousness is already covered by Cardassians) with singularity drives for extreme long range missions, and cloaks once the Romulan treaty forbidding them becomes null and void.
The Federation would then become not only the unchallenged power of the Alpha and Beta quadrant, they would then expand out, because they have no rivals to threaten them because their rivals are now part of them (The Breen would become insignificant). Add in the technology from the returned Voyager and the galaxy is basically theirs in a few generations - The Borg won't be an issue because it's been shown that they can be flummoxed by just a single intrepid class ship, cut off from assistance. …
Unless of course some unexpected rival power suddenly appears, just about equal in power so that it's a cold war of spies and intrigue or a more powerful foe appears that can only be defeated by innovative out of the box thinking and a hail mary pass when all hope seems lost. …
It's tradition.
Great video. Also, STO has Cardassians akin to post-war naval sailors in the Middle and Renaissance Ages, pirates. They are True Way Cardassians, not clones, but the same in origin... sailors no longer needed and looking for work, turning to crime.
MAKE CARDASIA GREAT AGAIN
Let's build a space wall and make the bajorans pay for it?
The Federation did that already right? THe minefield infront of the wormhole.....
Let me tell ya, Thok Gor, wonderful leader, great Parisi Squares player
In a post scarcity future letting in everyone is fine and dandy. Except we don’t live in a post scarcity world. Even the Feds keep those who can’t assimilate into their culture out.
That's probably more mutual. The Klingon Empire is the Federationss' (generally speaking) longest standing ally and they blatantly refused any offer to join. They didn't want to be a part of the Federation. They didn't want their culture changed, and they didn't want the Federation to blend too much with then, either. A few good drinking buddies, good wartime allies, but nothing worth changing their civilisation over. I'm sure many other cultures saw the Federation the same way.
The fate of the cardassians ALWAYS reminds me of germany after WW2... And that the US helped to rebuild it, just like the Federation supposedly did with cardassia.
Yeah but Germany became an economically self-sufficient power with an average strength military but a strong major economy that allows Germany to exert economic and political influence across Europe.
Cardassia on the other hand will be almost completely reliant on the Federation for support whereas Germany does not need economic aid from the US to support themselves.
I see the wounded Federation doing little to help Cardasia rebuild, just like they did nothing to stop Klingon aggression against the Cardasians. I do see Cardasia needing a post world war style reconstructionism, or it would be a continued issues of a failed state in the Alpha quadrant, more like North Korea; isolated and paranoid propagandists... a pressure cooker ready to explode, and Bajor, a Federation protectorate, would be within shrapnel range.
I believe it will be up to the Ferengi to be the post WWII traders, that help bring nations together after the war. They were the only ones not "really involved" in the conflict, and the damages that they suffered was the liberation of half of their population... all the more reason to form societies of Ferengi that can't Ferengi good on Frenganor (a.k.a. those men that can not compete with women at home), to go out and expand into alien territories... including Cardasia and the Federation. Maybe I'm racist, but I can see having a Ferengi quartermaster, or as a trade diplomat, becoming a near necessity on Federation ships.
The expansion of the Federation over the next couple of centuries should include the challenges of including the trade, cultures, information, and products; brought to it by an ever expanding and interconnecting Ferengi Trade Commission (FTC), as both a unifier of the Alpha quadrant, as well as a disruptor of regular trusted ways of doing things...
The other saving grace would be if Bajor was able to form a coalition with Cardasia, that celebrated their common history, and focused on cultural interchange through satisfying common needs; going through a type of Hellenistic classical era, where individual worlds and colonies would have a type of individual nationalism, with a flavor of regional multiculturalism through trade and a shared cause of post-apocalyptic rebuilding.
Right but even that took 10-15 years to be done
>It took time, therefore it wuz not good an shiet
@@trekkienzl2862 I think in Europe today, Germany is seen more like the Federation, although with a demilitarized Starfleet: Starfleet/Bundeswehr all but dismantled as an effective fighting force, while peaceful expansion through interstellar/-national cooperation is running rampant.
I find your claim that the Cardassians were becoming an equal power on par with the Klingons or Federation in the 2360s and 2370s dubious. Remember, a strong, self-sufficient power doesn't need to sell artifacts to fund a war effort. They were what Dukat feared, a third rate power, but one that kept on selling it's treasures to act like a first rate one. It was only with the Military in command and the Obsidian Order there to suppress dissent that things continued. After the Obsidian Order was taken away, there was a civilian revolution only months afterward. Notice how the Romulan Empire suffered no such fate, even though their Tal Shiar was severely weakened.
You also seem to forget that during the war between the Klingons and the Federation, with the Cardassians also fighting the Klingons, that the Federation was providing severe humanitarian support to the Cardassians, as well as helping them rebuild their infrastructure with industrial replicators(that Eddington stole, but the Federation was helping).
I do agree that the Klingons and the Cardassians are going to become Federation members in a few generations. The Romulans? That could be a while. if they follow the events of STO, I do see the Romulan Republic becoming a Federation ally, and then eventually a Federation member. But that would take generations, I think.
I tend to think of the Cardassians that way as well. Their misplaced arrogant pride would have them believe they were a first-rate super power, but their capability seemed to show otherwise. A super power wouldn't have needed an alliance with the Dominion in the first place, nor would they have needed to conquer and occupy a (comparably) poor planet like Bajor to plunder its resources. That they needed Bajor's resources just to survive, shows you what their status is.
Marcus Jones Hey, if they are by then, then they are.
There is an idea that The Dominion had to massively upgrade the Cardassian ships to be worth anything in the War
I hear you. The Garak Root Beer speech.
There are also sources that say after the Dominion War, Garek became the Ambassador for Cardassia Prime and a founding member of a democratic government that gave the civilians freedom they'd never had. There were some that were opposed, but this allowed the Cardassians to open trade routes with other powers like the Federation and no longer be imperialistic. Much like at the end of World War II, when the Axis Powers Germany, Italy and Japan surrendered and democratic governments were installed. A system that none of them understood until after the war which allowed them to trade peacefully with the rest of the world and no longer be imperialistic. Also, don't forget that during the Dominion War, Damar gave up his position as Legate when he realized that the Dominion was the enemy all along and was leading the Cardassians to disaster. The reasons he started the Cardassian Rebellion and supplied the Alliance with a sample of the Breen energy dampening weapon.
eventually, the entire galaxy would be a 3 way war, Borg, vs Dominion, Vs alpha q + beta q federation, toos into that the sphere builders and you have the ingredients fr an epic war
It would be an interesting battle. We talked about t his on yesterdays livestream.. But I do wonder if Star Trek may be coming to a natural end? A disturbing but possibly necessary thing..
It has run it's course I think, we need only look at the the lastest series and movies to see which way the franchise is going and setting a series ahead in the timeline, means less room for discovery, the dominion in one direction the borg in the other. Story and narrtive wise, the franchise is hemmed in.
Best to let it pass with some dignity. Maybe someone can revive it in decades to come. With holodeck tech!
hemmed in indeed. Unless they get a drive tech breakthrough that lets them explore another galaxy, then the Federation at the (non STO) end of the timeline has hit the point in a 4x game where explore and expand have ended, they're already exploiting their resources well. That leaves only two methods of expansion without a FTL tech breakthrough. Huge scale alliances (which in a sense the Federation already is, this would just be more of the same.) and large scale conquest. (which is hard to imagine the Federation doing.)
Long term, either the Federation gets that tech breakthrough or it becomes a two sided 'everyone vs the Borg' for a while until the collective is broken (1/3 of the galaxy vs about 2/3 of the galaxy usually ends one way.) but then after the brief rebuilding period it becomes pretty apparent that the Federation and the Dominion end up staring at each other across a neutral zone. Again, no new breakthrough in FTL tech results in a galaxy in flames. Unless something breaks civilizations on a galaxy wide scale, like a Tyranid level extra-galactic invasion, Beast outbreak (Homeworld Cataclysm) or such.
+Sorain1 Precisely true and I don't think Star Trek needs that kind of avenue of exploration, it's always been about the brighter promise of tomorrow.
Better to leave the promise, with a degree of mystery and "what if" still remaining, to be pondered over, rather than completeing the journey to a definative end.
The internal functioning of the Fedration isn't all that interesting and it works because we don't have a clear plan or schemaic of what this utopian society looks like (how could we, if we knew what one looked like, we'd build one for real! Lets accept no poor imitations, but only mild allusions, in our Star Trek, try to exlpain it and it will all come apart)
As to a cold war or galactic conflict, we have other franchises better suited to exploring such things, without breaking the fundamental concept and nature of Star Trek in order to tell those stories.
No, Star Trek is done, by virtue of only having a little more left to give and sometimes, taking your hand out of the cookie jar, while there are still some cookies left, is better than eating all the cookies.
There's something special in the moment between, possibly more cookies one day and NO MORE COOKIES EVER!
I concur with your conclusions. You augments and your algorithms and analysis. You fit in well at the institute.
I can definitely see your scenario coming to pass, that is for sure. However, Cardassia becoming a member world of the Federation, that I'm not so sure about. I think perhaps the relationship would more resemble the post-war relationship between the US and Japan, except for the absence of a Federation military governor parallel to MacArthur. Instead the Federation would likely help the Cardassians build a civilian government, likely inviting members of the Cardassian dissident movement to play a major role -- there is a book about Garak in which he become president of the post-war Cardassian Union, and I'd love to see him in that role, I want a post-war series so bad! -- and it is worth remembering that in the Alpha Quadrant map, the Cardassian territory is near the Breen, and the Sheliak Corporate, both of whom would still be adversaries of the Federation. The Cardassian Union, much like post-war Japan, or, in another sense, like Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, et cetera, could be set up as a sort or independent buffer state allied with the Federation, but not a member of it. Perhaps it could also turn out to be something like post-war Finland, meaning independent, and partial to the Federation, but also capable of serving as a sort of mediator between the Federation, and the Breen Confederacy, or the Sheliak Corporate, or other smaller yet ambitious Alpha Quadrant powers. As for resources, I don't think future Cardassian expansion is out of the question. I could see a disgruntled Breen, angry that their people died for nothing, and they got none of what the Dominion promised them, choosing to attack the weakened Cardassia, and possibly trying to reclaim Cardassian territory lost to the Klingons. With Federation support the Cardassians could hopefully claim some resource rich Breen territory. Mind you, this is all my bias because I do not want Cardassia to become a Federation world, I want it to be a Federation ally, but an ally like the Klingons, meaning totally independent with its own culture, and identity. I love the Cardassians, they're my favorite species outside the Federation, and they're far from irredeemable in my eyes. Under military rule, which was born of necessity, they have been subjected to a gross tyranny. However, with a civilian government I could see them becoming more free, and liberalized, yet still maintaining their edge, their will to fight, and their identity, something like the Federation, but with a set of steel balls. I also believe that the territories seized by the Klingons due to changing infiltration should be returned to Cardassia after the war to shore up its resources so the Federation need not expend so much rebuilding Cardassia because they'll need to aide the Romulans, and hopefully assist in the establishment of a Roman, I mean Romulan Republic. Cardassia would be an extremely advantageous regional ally to the Federation, but it would be so sad to see them join the Federation, and become all weak, and pacified... unless of course they ended up joining Starfleet en masse the way humans do so that they could be a part of the Federation, and rather than losing their strength, they could bring that strength to the Federation the same way humanity does. Most Federation world's live under human protection, the Federation is like a cosmic NATO with a central government. I would be happy to see Cardassia join if the Cardassians end up becoming the second dominate group providing military/exploratory support to the Federation. That would actually be fucking awesome, like having my cake, and eating it to. Just imagine, a post war series in which Starfleet crews are like 50% human, 35% Cardassian, and 15% other Federation species, and the Cardassians manage to embrace Federation ideals with open arms the way Japan embraced democracy, and liberalism after WWII, but they also manage to retain their strength, and courage by lending themselves to the service of the Federation in the same way they lent themselves to their own governments. The Never Ending Sacrifice, only this time it is a sacrifice for the freedom, and brotherhood of all species as equals as per Federation ideals. In terms of an independent Cardassia though, they could always look to the Ferengi for resources, just something to note.
I could see the Federation supporting the Cardassians like they did the Bajoran Republic, even if only for a period of time before joining in full.
I'm pretty sure that the Dominion would turn against the Cardassians if they won the war. Remember what the female changeling told Garak: "They're dead, You're dead, Cardassia is dead. Your people were doomed the moment they attacked us."
I agree with your sentiment, but remember that the female changling was telling a whopper of lie.
@@dogkungfu8510 no she was being 100% honest. You left off the ending of the quote “your people were doomed the moment they attacked us”. So the Founders already wrote them off and was just going to use the
Until no longer needed.
@@JemHadar422 threats are not facts. There were survivors from the Romulan/Cardie fleet. We see them later when Worf and Garek get captured. If the Founders were so vindictive, why keep them alive? Because the Founders aren't stupid.
Crew from that fleet survived. Garek survived. Cardassia survived. She was posturing and you treat her threats as 100% accomplished fact.
The Dominion would have done whatever was in the best interest of the Founders if they won the war.
What do they gain by such vindictiveness? The Cardies switched sides and were willing to be cannonfodder. They submitted. What message does punishing them send to the rest of that side of the galaxy? "You might as well resist til your complete destruction, because if you resisted Dominion control at all ever you will be wiped out anyway."
There has to be some incentive to becoming 'loyal' citizens of the Dominion, even if it is just survival as slaves. Is the Dominion going to punish the whole Alpha and Beta quadrants for resisting being conquered?
The female founder was playing mind games with Garek and it worked on you.
@@JemHadar422 you are basically saying they would do the same to the Romulans, the federation, the klingons, etc. They weren't even that brutal in the gamma quadrant.
The Founders want to bring Order to Chaos. And even they know that at a certain point petty vindictiveness only invites more chaos.
The Founders would be quite happy with total submission. If they got that, they wouldn't intentionally invite chaos back into that just for petty revenge. It would tell the whole galaxy that even total submission will be punished which would lead directly to more chaos.
@@dogkungfu8510 i is respectfully disagree. I think the Founders were going to wipe out the Cardassians as soon as they had won. The points is don’t f@$& with the founders. The idea of attacking the founder homewold was Tain’s big idea.
Very well thought out. I'm new to the channel but I'm liking the great Star Trek videos and their scope. Keep up the good work!
The Federation specializes in the long-game version of Realpolitik.
It's worth noting that, metachronologically DS9 episode 1 occurs IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING Picard's 4 light fiasco. So basically Picard goes from being mercilessly tortured by the Caucasians, to single-handedly saving Bajor from the Cardassians with Patrick Stewart's amazing acting skills, to being given the backhand, by the person he put in charge of reaching out to the other victims of Cardassian cruelty, for something Picard had no control over.
Having watched the last few episodes of Picard it appears that the Federation turned inward not long after Romulus' destruction. So far we don't know anything about the Cardassians, but I wouldn't count them out so easily. Keep in mind they got a lot of upgraded Dominion technology and while they retreated back to the Gamma Quadrant there would still be a lot of equipment left behind. Then there is the matter of the other powers. With the Romulan internal strife I think the Klingons would be more interested in antagonizing a long time enemy over the Cardassians so both of these empires would leave Cardassia alone and then there is the aforementioned Federation turning inward. If they're not paying attention the Cardassians could fall back into old habits or might emerge better.
I agree toward the end of deep space nine the Romulans and Federation were the true winners while everyone else , except the Fergi allaince were beaten up badly , which means even Cardassians would have to join the Federation or Romulan empire, which the Romulans would be as cruel as the Klingons would have been if they were able to gain total victory befor the Dominion Wars started.
"It's insidious."
~Elim Garak
Just like the Federation
50 years behind The Federation Huh , .... makes sense , I always wondered how Miles O'Brien a Transporter Chief transitioned so quickly to Head Engineer ' of an unknown Space station ' nearly 10 times the size of the Enterprise " Oh well , at least that's an explanation I can have for myself .
He was a Chief Petty Officer and the station was initially a frontier outpost with minimal weaponry and staffing. After the wormhole opened Starfleet decided to leave him in charge as they lacked engineering officers that understood the modifications he made to the Cardassian technology. The station was also governed in tandem with the Bajorans , who were the majority of staff
I doubt the Cardassian’s would join the Federation, but certainly be a strong ally of them. Cardassian’s are a very proud race and like to be the head of their own state
Interesting to see this after having played Star Trek Online for about a year and a half. I think part of why they mentioned going back to being explorers again very late in the game is that while the Federation did get a lot of its crap kicked in ... there's nothing like an outside force trying to invade to convince the Alpha and Beta quadrant powers to get along MUCH better.
Nicely done!
Discovery reveals, that by the 31st century, Romulans were on the Federation Council, by virtue of their reunification with Vulcan
How about an episode featuring non Section 31 agents, assests, and sympathizers. I always believed that Sisko while not a full blown memeber was a sympathizer due to his hatred of the Borg... he always seemed to exist on the militaristic side of Star Fleet
He was on the Defiant design team.
Awesome video and agreed on all points, including the far-fetched Romulan idea! Hadn't ever considered that before. An intriguing point and I could see them doing that. Probably not, but it isn't completely unbelievable.
Thanks, I try to make it fit canon, so glad you enjoyed ;)
That was well done.
In regards to Romulus being destroyed. That would throw off the Prime Timeline of Star Trek TNG, DS9, and even the events of Star Trek: Nemesis where Picard and the Enterprise-E fight Shinzon right at Romulus Doorstep. The Romulan homeworld was never so much as mentioned as destroyed in any of the canon series or films outside of the first Kelvin timeline movie. Yet we have to see where the next two star trek movies that have announced will take the Kelvin timeline.
It was actually discussed being destroyed in the Canon series - The first part of the movie is canon. The destruction of romulus has been confirmed by CBS, Paramount, and such.
In the Videogame Star Trek Online, Those who were working with Spock on reunification before the Dominion War/Destruction of Romulus eventually form a Romulan Republic which opposes Remnants of the Romulan Star Empire (essentially the Tal Shiar) and eventually starts forming alliances with both the federation and Klingon empires making them more powerful than the Star Empire. I like to think that this is the ultimate fate of the Romulans but it would be nice to get another series/movie set in the prime universe after the events described by Spock in the initial JJ verse Trek movie.
what would make something interesting is a power who to repay the Bajorans for some kindness wipe out Cardassians.
scene: General Kira in her office gets notified about some strange reading so they investigate together with UFP and find out Cardassua Prime no longer has any organic matter, nothing is alive down there not even bacteria. it is utterly lifeless due to a device beamed onto it's surface
Am I the only person seeing the horrific CGI mess at 0:18, it's like the defiant's outer components with a small ship in the center and significant clipping
You will become one with the Federation!
Lot of WWII parallels in the Dominion War- Cardies are Italy, Dominion is Germany, Breen are Japan.
I think the cardassians will make a comercial trade with the ferengi remember that they are considered as the same power and tecnology of the federation
Yea, that's a good point - I never really considered that..good call out.
did you really agree with me or you just be ironic? (its sometimes hard to know), but i hope you make videos about de ferengi, they are suprised remarkable and have the same tecnology and power that the federation but are always neutral in the wars, but in the dominion war they were fundamental to win the war
@@questaoolavo2346 with Rom as the Grand Nagus it might be less likely-he has a Bajoran wife and unlike many before him.actually cares about his friends and people.
@@questaoolavo2346 I dont know because the Ferengi even during the Dominion war had seen many social changes such as women's rights. So how this changed government is worthy further study because I see even ferengi might in some distant future be more pliable to join the Federation
I like what you say upto the point of Cardassia never being able to provide for themselves again. The Cardassians werr proud and would rebuild Cardassia and the few colonies that remained. They may be religated to a minor more regional power but a power none the less.
The reason why they expanded was because they couldn't sustain themselves... being proud doesnt do much if you dont have food
Lore Reloaded I disagree. Japan went from a humiliated, bankrupt and defeated nation with a destroyed infrastructure (including two cities vaporized) To a major economic powerhouse and technological innovator in less than 35yr. And Japan has virtually no natural resources and cannot enen feed itself. It accomplished this by the drive and charater of its people and culture. Yes Japan recived large amounts of aid from the USA. Just as Cardassia would need assistance from the Federation. But the drive and sense of personal sacrafice for the good of the nation enabled Japan to recover just as it would help Cardassia.
I doubt *very* much that the Cardassians were ever anything more than cannon fodder to the Dominion. Dukat forged the alliance with them out of convenience and desperation, and I don't think he was savvy enough to realise they didn't care about Cardassia.
Interesting Theory, I like your thoughts. But, in my opinion, what is most likely to happen is : Cardassia being occupied and torn to sectors just like Germany after WW2, Entering a cold war status.
You think starfleet would allow that?
I find it funny that in the end the federation rules most of the galaxy and everyone welcomes it with open arms.
The cardassian Union cause great pains and suffering throughout it years of oppression and aggressive expansion. Let's look at key points in their own history. Cardassia once was very much like the Bajor. Deeply spiritual people with rich history in Art and Culture. Unfortunately, because their world was Poor in Natural Resources, they suffered from massive famines and rapid disease. Soon military powers took control, sold off any artifacts value for war effort and building, started annexing any worlds within their sight starting with Bajor itself. Coming into conflicts with the Federation and Klingon Empire. In other words, cardassian troubles stem from a hunger and thirst that has never been truly resolved in a proper way.
...dope analysis bro, keep it up... #awesome
Crazy outro to this vid!
After the Dominion War the Federation would have sent huge amounts of none military aid to the Cardassian Union to assist them in rebuilding, far more than they sent Bajor after the first occupation ended. Cardassia was basically turned into ruble. IMO some twenty years after the end of the Dominion War the Cardassian Union would formally join the Federation.
An alternative hypothesis: the Federation would make the Cardassians dependent on them and would impose a new puppet government, removing all the members of the old order (including all the competent administrators). This would cause an unstoppable tailspin for the Cardassian economy, and they'd see the Federation's cumulative actions as the sole cause of their current problem (which it pretty much was). Far from making them love their new Federation masters, it would make them extremely bitter and hateful toward it. Even without that last part (the destruction of their economy), they'd still hold a bitter grudge against the Federation for putting them in this position and wiping out their empire; they'd probably come to think that the Federation actually secretly orchestrated the whole thing.
Also, I love how the Feds and Klingons basically get a pass for being cunts, yet all their enemies are booed for doing the same shit or even for having the gall to dare stand up against them. Perfect display of The Designated Hero trope.
I think you are wrong. I think that the Federation would build up the Cardassian Union, much like we did with Japan after WW2. The Cardassians would change, but they would be self sufficient in the end. Long term they might even join the Federation. Keep in mind when Cardassia took all of Bejors resources the Federation came in and helped them rebuild and get back on their feet. They would have done the same with Cardassia.
UFP total victory actually makes a lot of sense. All the independent powers would be so weakened by the war they would have to join with rest of the galactic community in peaceful co-existence. The Federation would become the most dominant power-structure in the galaxy, spanning the Alpha and Beta quadrants.
Long live cardassia
Cardassia would be Great Addiction to the Federation!
I think both Lore and Kyle Sawyer make valid points. The Cardassians certainly had the potential to become a greater power in the quadrant, and arguably immediately after their joining the Dominion they were. Trouble was, they only had a brief window of time to make that potential reality and for various reasons they failed to do so.
wright534 can you post a link to that Kyle Sawyer content, I'd be interested in seeing it. When I just did a search I just found youtube channels on 4 wheel driving dune buggies and aquariums.
It's just two comments below.
wright534 oh I thought it was another video or something
You’ve regularly mention the destruction of Romulus from its suns exploding, but wouldn’t those events be from the kelvin timeline? I’ve always assumed in the core timeline spock succeeded in preventing the Romulans sun from going supernova.
No, those events happen in Prime.. Kelvin occurs after the destruction of Romulus in the Prime. There would be no kelvin timeline if Romulus hadn't exploded.. in the prime timeline. I don't like the plot with romulus being destroyed.. I think that's a horrible piece of writing. My opinion doesn't impact canon fact t hough ;P
That kind of sucks. if there is anything worthy of a quiet retcon, its that. cheers for the response.
To be fair, it was never confirmed categorically on screen that “Spock Prime” was really from the Prime timeline. Although if he’s not, then his timeline is very similar to it.
@@djpob then they would not have bothered to get Leonard Nimoy to be Spock.
I've often been curious about Cardassia's so called resource scarcity. It's never really been explored that much, but we know that Cardassia Prime was a fertile world until it's ecological system changed which caused massive starvation and disease and consequently the military took over because the civilian leadership couldn't handle these problems. Now while that is true of Cardassia Prime the Cardassian Union was a vast empire of many star systems and planets. The pragmatic solution would be to relocate as many Cardassians to habitable worlds, but it appears that Central Command was content to keep things as they were except with them in power. My theory is this was deliberate. If the military dispersed the population throughout the union then the crisis would've abated and the people wouldn't need the military to be so involved in t heir lives. Central Command and presumably the Obsidian Order knew this would happen so they created a constant state of scarcity and paranoia so that the people would always need them. However, this also made Cardassians vulnerable because to massive disruptions because when the Klingons hit their resources hard they couldn't feed and maintain such a population which forced them to turn to Gul Dukat and the Dominion.
The Federation are very much like the Borg, they assimilate all around them, and they adapt, the only difference is the time it takes and the degree it is done.
The Federation can't adapt on the spot, like the Borg can, but they can adapt to a much greater degree than the borg can, to the point that the Collective is rendered powerless
The Federation Assimilate all around them eventually, they bring all into the fold, and what's more they can make them do it in such a way that they think its the best way forward, no need to force it, just give them time and they'll tie their own noose
the federation looked the other way when cardassia conquered bajor
In the Book Enigma Tales, they do hint at the possibility of Cardassia joining the Federation.
It seems the only logical choice to me.
I really like this analysis. It makes the most sense to me pertaining to the events shown on the tv shows. Do you have a background in history or something? Because this sounds like something from an analysis of the countries of Europe Post-WWII. Keep up the good work!
I know the show was based on Wolrd War 2 and have been studying that. My background is actualy in Analysis. I was an Analyst for a Multi-Million (may be Billion now) company.. So analyzing things unreasonably is what I used to get paid to do.
They will revive an old earth TV show: Keeping up with the Cardassians.
i wish in Picard to see garak suprimelader of cardasya and cardasyas way to federation
I think that once the other Alpha Quadrant powers would be pacified, the Dominion would crush the Cardassians in retaliation for attempting to bomb their homeworld.
+Peteman C fair enough
Like, what's left would be lucky to look like the guys from The Quickening.
The greater galactic alliance. Alpha and Beta quad powers. Unstoppable
The only my thing that saved the alpha quadrant was the wormhole aliens ..we all know it.
I don't think the Cardassians knew about the Danube class runabouts or had stolen the designs from Utopia Planetia. What Dukat stated to Sisko, while they were in the runabout together, was that Cardassia was years ahead in this kind of design for a small short range warp capable craft. Which if you think about it is most likely true. I mean Starfleet had only started to create Danube class runabouts at the start of DS9. While Cardassians had already been producing those type of vessels for decades.
There are several things that was good about DS9. First it took Star Trek back to more real iteration of reality. Humans where not always friendly with one another or even with every other species and a few good words wouldn't just smooth things over. It showed that if you do not fight a war to win then you fight to lose and piss off your own people, hence the creation of the maquis. It showed that there has to be some form of currency, or trade to get things needed that the Federation both wanted and needed. It showed that religion isn't stupid and actual comes from a strong foundation of beliefs, this was probably not intentional but it can be seen through out the show as the Bajoins never really lost faith in their god. It further showed that to win a war you have to embrace the full ugliness of war and become what you hate, a killer. No tactic is deemed too extreme, no price too high to pay especially if you lose you get the great future of being slaves.
The Dominion would not treat the Cardassians poorly for no reason, and the Cardassians "usefulness" would not simply begin to wane for no reason. The Dominion has many races under their control which are treated very well and even allowed autonomy as long as they contribute. The Cardassians were going to administer the Alpha Quadrant on behalf of the Dominion, which would be extremely useful as the Dominion territory is all the way in the Gamma quadrant, with no way to reliably send messages between the two quadrants outside of physicaly sending someone through an unpredictable wormhole nobody understands.
I don't think the Cardassians were anywhere near the Federation. They did catch on a bit but they were not able to handle the Defiant at all. The Defiant spanked their most advanced ship while taking only minimal damage and Riker was confident that they could take on three of their ships with no problem.
You, know I just had this Thought, What would happen with the Borg Vs. Dominion, could a Changling be Assimilated?
Its clear that sometime after the episode 'Defiant' and when the Klingons attack Cardassia, that major economic and political changes were weakening the Cardassians. All through TNG and even through the first part of DS9, Cardassia was a powerful empire that was on par with most other civilizations. It wasn't just th Obsidian Order falling apart and being taken out by the Dominion. The Federation had fought wars with Cardassia in the past and never defeated them, they simply created treaties to end the fighting. The Klingons though were able to rip through their lines and reach Cardassia Prime and win, in the length of a single DS9 episode. Clearly something off screen took place that severely weakened them militarily.
Makes you wonder who are the real bad guys
I've been wondering if it was possible for Cardassia to rise from the ashes in a post Dominion War climate to become the power of the Alpha Quadrant under Garak's leadership. I think it is possible if Cardassia were to acquire two resources: The healing energy of the Briar Patch and Shinzon's green death energy and I see both being possible.
Worf was present in _Insurrection_ and I can see him telling the DS9 crew of his adventures and Bashir would not let this amazing resource waste on just 630 people. I can totally see him telling Garak about it if he couldn't get it himself. Shinzon's death green energy from _Nemesis_ is really hyped up in the novelization since it's a planet killer and since it's not biological base isn't considered bio-mutagenic weapons so it can circumvent treaties. There are numerous possibilities for Garak to acquire it after Romulus' destruction.
So by offering healing rays to enchant worlds to join the new Cardassia Union and with the death green energy as a deterrent, it is feasible for the spoon heads to actual conquer the Alpha Quadrant not with the stick but with the carrot. It's an insidious strategy but definitely fitting for Garak's character.
shippies 3:16 thanks lore
I think they said the Klingon's used 1/3 of their fleet to attack Cardassia and take it over.
+AstroTrain100 Indeed. If i said anything different in this then it's been clarifies in later videos
So the Romulans, Klingons and Cardassians all join the Federation and the whole galaxy is under one banner. They became the Republic from Star Wars.
With out the fun..
Not the galaxy, a tiny segment of the galaxy. There are most certainly other powers. The dominion is still at large in the delta quadrent, the borg in gamma, and who knows what else
I never understood why the Federation didn't make more ships like the Defiant. I guess they were staying within the letter of the law with respect to the Khitomer accords, but they certainly violated the spirit. Is it because they thought the Borg were gone after Picard killed the Borg Queen? I am an absurdly poor strategist, and even I know the folly of having one being whose loss can cripple the collective. The Defiant was small and probably wouldn't have taken the same resources as larger ships. Is it due to the lack of desire to Militarize?
They did. The Defiant was the prototype and was unique for its cloaking device and ablative armor as it wasn't standard yet, but Starfleet began mass producing warships like the defiant and the aquira... acira... whatever. We see a few in the battles of DS9, but the best evidence is actually in Voyager. In the episode message in a bottle, we see Starfleet send an Aquira and two Defiants after the Prometheus and three Romulan warbirds. Finally, after the defiant proper was destroyed, Sisco got the Sao Paulo/Defiant II not too long after. Starfleet produces ships quickly, but not that quickly. They had one to spare.
We also see the defiant class in Daniels time... ship manuel from the 31st century. Clearly the defiant class lasted for a long time. I would guess becoming more escort role then pure warship
I know you said that for you the books don’t count. you should still check them out. the Deep Space 9 books explain a lot
It's not necessarily for me.. it's CBS and Roddenberry standards I am keeping to here
I see the Cardassians giving up territory to the Klingons and to the Federation (aka the Maquis territories) while their populations retreat back to rebuild Cardassia Prime. The Federation would immediately send in medical and humanitarian aid to the Cardassians; maybe there is a special medical fleet command (such as Starfleet Directive Medical Emergency One) where all free medical ships would aid a planet(s) in distress. While the Federation is not seeking new territory, the Cardassian Union cannot exist on its own and (within a couple decades of living with Federation assistance,) decides to dissolve and join the Federation (allowing some Cardassian worlds to become independent, maybe a micro Cardassian Union). The ruin of their government (along with the show of Federation generosity) would turn many to adopt their earlier cultural values and see joining the Federation as the next step for a proud people.
As you say it's likely that both Cardassia, and the Klingons would join the Federation fairly quickly after the war, as both are devastated by the losses, and with Klingon leadership after the war looking much more favourably upon the Federation, and having again proven to the klingons that despite their pacifistic stance, Starfleet is filled with honorable warriors. Cardassia has little choice, as they're completely dependant on Federation aid. The Romulans emerge after the war with big losses, but still a strong independent power, but with a more amicable relationship with the Federation, and a Section 31 agent on the continuing comittee, it's likely relations will begin to be more normal, and maybe many years later they will join too, but not as fast, since Romulus have always favoured isolationism.
@LoreReloaded there is still the Breen an other up an coming nations
OH GODS! A BLUE BALL IN THE ALPHA QUADRANT!(+1 to anyone who read that and got the EVE-Online reference)
Not sure how an Alpha Quadrant united under a Federation banner equals a victory for the Dominion. Yes, they wanted a unite Alpha Quadrant, but they wanted it united under the Dominion, not the Federation.
Well we know from Canon that eventually the Klingons became full members of the federation, so I cannot see why the cardassians would not in time. Even in this century former enemies of world war 2, are now close allies and friends. I would assume that they would have joined together, I can speculate that the romulans may well have held out for sometime until the hobus event. It seems to be a trend in star trek, where by great disasters or conflicts have United former enemies.
What canon says the Klingons eventually become members of the Federation? I could see them staying allies, but not a member.
The Cardassian's joining the UFP would be logical after the war. The destruction of Romulus would probably see Starfleet deploy cloaking devices in at least some of its ships.
In the enterprise series a time agent confirms the Klingon join the federation council.
Ent episode Azati Prime.
Either than divine intervention, there's nothing really stopping the Dominion from crossing the wormhole and steamrolling the Alpha/Beta quadrant. Only a small fraction of the Dominion's total military assets were even made available during the war. The Cardassian has more or less been destroyed, Klingon were probably going to be a 2nd rate power going forward, the Romulans had internal turmoil and the Federation still did suffer greatly during the conflict.
The Alpha quadrant better keep praying the Prophet keeps the wormhole closed regarding Dominion vessels.
Didn't the alpha quadrant powers plan to collapse the wormhole?
@@suryanarayan2032 I believe there was one episode where they wanted to collapse it, but there was some changeling or something that reversed the effect and made the wormhole incapable for being collapsed.
The cardassians would become members of the federation and that's a good thing eventually all species in the alpha quad would be apart of the federation
I don't necessarily disagree.
I really don't see the Romulan Star Empire or the Breen Confederacy ever becoming part of the Federation.
@@KaiserFranzJosefI the breen and tholian in particular should be come something of an Iran or North Korea
The Breen might join if it means not getting invaded by the Klingons or Romulans.
Do Romulan Empire vs Romulan Republic.
Ooooh.. I don't hate that.
The Romulan's are based on the Romans. Two legendary founders of Rome "Romulus" and "Remus", vs two founding planets in the Romulan Prime system "Romulus" and "Remus". Descended of a people with a long, proud logical and violent history named after a "Latin/Etruscan/Roman God" known as "Vulcan", but "Hephaistos" in Greek. But my point is, the Vulcan-Romulan Dynamic is the "Greco-Roman" Dynamic.
The Cardasians would probably be based on the "Carthaginians" Anyways, Hollywood recycles. Not just in star trek.
The incredible Hulk was based on Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde. The Lion King was Hamlet
The Lion King is actually closer to the original Horus myth in a way. I know they took inspiration from Hamlet... but they flipped lots of character traits around. Simba is practically the opposite of Hamlet. Same with Sarabi and Gertrude.
The Alpha quadrant belongs to the Nords, I mean, humans.
When Janeway in the Voyager King back from the other from the Delta quadrant the technology brought back what would happen with all that with the Federation share it with the Klingons or keep it to themselves and what about the Borg do they still exist or did they finally collapse
WELL I THINK WHAT MY GRAND DAD SAY IS TRUE, U DONT NEED A BIG FRIEND TO UNIFY NATIONS, U NEED A BIG ENEMY TO MAKE THEM 1.
Before the Kljgon War I put the Union as a secondrate power in miltary THey were considerably upgrading their Galors and launched the Keldon Class. I don't blame Dukat and if they had on with him still in charge I thinki it be a long time before the Union was fully absorbed. ANd the Difference between the Obsidian Order andthe Tal Shair is numbers. the Tal Shair had greater numbers so while the AMbush wiped out the Order it only damaged the Tal Shair. Greatly but not fatally.
I think it weakened the tal shiar to allow them to be coopted by an enemy intelligence agency..but yea. The Shiar survived that ('survived') the obsidian order did not.
yeah. likely they did a heavy recruitment spree afterwards
Sure everyone would be federation but that doesn’t mean the founders would be in control even if they infiltrated the higher powers. There would still be a republic style governing system rather than the dictatorship the dominions want. That’s always been the true hurdle.
Spoiler: First episode of DSC season 4 features a descendent of a Cardassian-human relationship as Federation President. So them joining the federation sooner or later is not unlikely.
I'm reminded of Edmonton's speech to Sisko right after leaving to join the Maquis. He talks about how the Federation is worse than the Borg, because the at least the Borg tell you what they're doing. The Federation assimilates you without you even realizing it, and they make you think it was your idea and choice the whole time. Just something to think about...
Could you elaborate about the cardassians having the plans for a starfleet runabout even before going into mass production?
The scene you’re referring to only has the following lines by dukat:
DUKAT: Is that a ramscoop control or a deflector grid panel? Just curious. It really doesn't matter. Cardassian pursuit vessels are years ahead of this design.
And:
SISKO: The photon launcher is there.
DUKAT: I know. I knew all about these controls before I ever came aboard
Therefore I’m curious how you came to your claim.
It's a reasonable claim *if* you take Dukat at his word, which I don't. Dukat is a terrible source of information and I think it's more likely that he was just bullshitting. With Section 31 skulking about, I seriously doubt they could have got spies into Utopia Planetia, even *with* their penchant for cosmetic surgery.
I'm on my phone and only answers comments here and there.. I'll be happy to address this the next time I get to my computer. Like Michael Spence said - a lot of this (though not all) is based on how truthful you believe Dukat to be. At this point, I relied on him more than I possibly should have ;P
So while I disagree with a few of your points, I agree with your conclusion. (This is becoming a pattern). There's a few things you leave out though. First, the most likely leader of Cardassia after the Dominion War is Garak. He's basically the Cardassian version of Shakar. Given the massacre and the decimation of their infrastructure, I think the most likely way for them to support themselves (beyond Federation charity, which they would accept, but despise) would be to recreate the Obsidian Order and to rent out their agents to the remaining powers. The Klingons were severely weakened as well, and many of them would want to renew the war on Cardassia to help make them strong again, but with Martok (and Worf sort of) in control of the Empire, that wouldn't get far. The Ferengi are in a position to help Cardassia as well, and there are probably plenty of Cardassians left with scientific and military experience that they could hire. So I think you'd see a major diaspora of Cardassia talent across the Alpha Quadrant in an effort to help gather resources for reconstruction.
The questions for the Galaxy now are, 1) How much damage did the main body of the Dominion take (in the Gamma Quadrant). There are no major battles there and it's entirely possible that they will be in fighting shape very soon, if Odo can't convince them to be peaceful. 2) Can the Federation survive peace? Too often you see when an empire becomes large and bloated, it succumbs to infighting. At this point in history, you're likely to see a conflict between the more warlike an the more pacifist members of the Federation in conflict with each other. So how will that end?
I think the romulans would join the federation but only after romulas was destroyed and they needed help
Now did you remember the federation did start sending aid during the war including industrial replicators
There was a very strong faction you missed bringing into this that is the Breen. Very curious on your thoughts on how they fit into this and your conclusion left them out even though tjey are a part of the alpha quadrant.
I actually have an entire video dedicated to the breen (Though I got one fact on it very wrong - they were at the signing). You can check it out it's here: th-cam.com/video/t_dGgO1a264/w-d-xo.html
Simply due to the Cardassians' highly nationalistic culture, I think that even as a Federation member state the Cardassian Union would probably insist on a degree of autonomy. Essentially, they would become a protectorate of the United Federation of Planets. Kinda like how Puerto Rico is a protectorate of the US and how Hong Kong is one to China.
What if section 31 secretly incepted the war against the Dominion into the heads of the founders with the goal to unite the alpha quadrant?