The Dominion War : Genesis of the Road to Hell
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ต.ค. 2024
- This is the beginning of a two part series where we look at 'in a pale moonlight' - i may have more on the topic at some point, but thought I would delve into it.
So let's take a look at The Dominion War : Genesis of the Road to Hell
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"Pale Moonlight" is one of the best Star Trek stories. Sisko is great in it as mentioned in the video. But Garak is just as good. Surrender to the Dominion was never an option. On this 'road to hell' to prevent that, Garak lays out the reality of the situation in chilling detail. What Sisko could not face Garak would do. Because for the Federation to survive, it had to be done.
To be honest this was probably among my favorite arcs in all of star trek, and the reason why is perhaps summed up by what you yourself said. "Even humans will follow the rules of acquisition if they have to". It was in this arc that to me the humans in Star Trek felt the most... well, human.
This was one of my top fav episodes in DS9 and I feel one of the most major focus on Sisko. He was in a very hard place and had to make a hard choice and I love how in the end he goes through all that he did and in the end goes " you know what? I can live with it." It's one of the things that really make Sisko stand out from other captains in the other shows because he was pushed to the brink with high stakes.
There's some really great subtle writing in "In the Pale Moonlight." When they finish creating the fake data rod, Garak tells Sisko that that he should lie and tell Vreenak that many Starfleet officers lost their lives to get the data rod. Earlier in the episode, Garak tells Sisko that all his contacts on Cardassia died trying to help him. When Sisko and Vreenak had their meeting, Vreenak talks about how close to perfect the replicated Romulan drink was to the real thing and that he was almost fooled by it. In the scene right after Garak asks Sisko for bio-mimetic gel, Bashir tells Sisko that bio-mimetic gel can be used to make organic explosives. Curious how a people as suspicious as the Romulans weren't able to detect the bomb Garak planted on their ship.
Also, Bashir's prediction was completely wrong. Bashir predicted that generations into the future, a resistance would rise on earth and overthrow the Dominion. But there's a scene in "Sacrifice of Angels" where Weyoun and Dukat talk about what they're going to do after they win the war. The first thing Weyoun says is that since earth is the most likely place where a resistance movement will begin, they should kill everyone on earth. There's no way Bashir's resistance fantasy would ever happen. The Dominion has no problem committing genocide. Even if Dukat manages to keep Weyoun from immediately eradicating earth, as soon as there's any sign of a resistance movement starting on earth, the Founders would step in and order Weyoun to wipe out earth.
Don't forget, Garek is a master of espionage. On a small shuttle craft like that, with only a handful of crew, pretty easy to place an explosive device on there.
The Orion Syndicate placed a device on a Federation Runabout, most likely whilst at DS9... If the OS can place a device on a Runabout, on a Federation controlled starbase, without being detected, then I think someone like Garek who was supposedly a gardener on Romulus can infiltrate a shuttle craft.
Agreed because of the founders pathological fear of solids.They would only acept solids as slaves.If there was any resitance to dominion authority.the founders wopuld kill every member of that race.
In fact, Bashir had to cure a race infected with the Blight. He knows precisely how evil the Dominion can be when he had a hell of time trying to cure it.
KingOfMadCows That’s a great analysis. I knew that Garak probably lied about his contacts being killed, but never thought about that he may have been making purpose built explosives with the biomemetic gel. That’s a subtle but crucial part of the story that the writers didn’t need to point out. Also, the comparison of the fake Romulan ale, the falsified recording, and the general prevalence of deception in the story is another subtle and extremely thoughtful bit of storytelling. Not only was this episode a turning point in Star Trek, it was a strong effort on the writer’s part to theorize that human nature will never change, even after poverty and war are eliminated.
Not true. The founders would have been dead, thanks to the ingenuity of Section 31.
Sisko's logic - "let's go down fighting, for our descendants" - worked in real life. Worked in Poland. After many failed attempts, but eventually, the culture of sacrifice won.
Plus, Bashir was wrong - the Dominion wanted to wipe out Earth.
Listening to Bashir to "save lives"? Life under the Dominion is not worth living. Sisko's attitude is pretty much that of John Patrick Henry - "Give me liberty, or give me death!"
+Conroy Paw And that's not necessarily the wrong attitude.. Buuuut., then you have to deal with the the consequences.. Ya know?
he knew he made the only choice
Conroy Paw I have to admit I chided at the notion that surrender was even for a second a better choice. The Dominion was a aggressive deceptive power and they must be fought. Loss of life is reprehensible but so is enslavement under an evil power.
"You and i know and do not believe that life is so dear and peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains slavery." -Ronald Reagan
Conroy Paw yes, and the funny part being, that the dominion planned to wipe out the earth, or at least its population. So much for the „save lifes“ argument...
This episode and the next are some of the best.
This was one of my top ten favorite episodes of DS9, simply because of how Sisko struggled with balancing his principles with doing what it takes to end the very war he helped start. To paraphrase a scene from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan to summarize my feelings on this episode:
Of Captain Benjamin Lafayette Sisko I can only say this, of all the souls I have encountered in the Star Trek universe, his performance was the most human.
The thing with garak saying how he had lost many operatives. He was just lying, garak was planning to blow up the romulan senator all along. He didn't send operatives to trying and find evidence of domination war plans for romulous. He was planning to fabricate those plans all along. He told sisko he lost many good men, just to make sisko feel bad so he would agree to his plans.
Garak would do what was easiest to get the job done as well as the most foolproof. The only difficult thing was getting Sisko down that path. I agree that Garak planned killing the senator from the beginning, otherwise why would he have a Dominion explosive device ready to go.
Sisko was dancing with the Devil, in this case Garak, in the pale moonlight.
If the road to hell is paved by good intentions, the stairway to heaven is built by sinners.
Sisko saved paradise by offering his soul in exchange.
Crick1952 problem with paradise it creates naive and weak people.
I personally don't want an easy life we need struggle we need pain so that we can become stronger and wiser.
@Sergio Milho
I would like to point out that there is other things in life than suffering that can build character. Empathy, joy and a general sense of experience can enlighten an individual. And perhaps also a community.
One if the best trek episodes ever, one of the best Captains ever.
Sisko is one of my favorite..
This was probably the best episode of DS9.
Ferengi rule of aquisition
" treat a person in your debt like family
exploit them "
Here's one thing about the Romulans entering the war. The Dominion were conquerors, But their motive was a bit different than that we seen in most real human history. People expand for power and control. The Changlings expanded for control because of fear of death and extinction. More than once was it made apparent that the Changling's motives to conquer was to to survive via control of the solids. This meant everything would have to come under their control, including the Romulans and everyone else at some point. But why do they sign non-aggression packs? Simple, time and attrition. The Changlings, while boasting overwhleming force tactics, sometimes use other components of subversionary tactics to compel other forces to join their collective. The less they have to fight, the less they have to risk. Time was usually on their side until the bottleneck of the wormhole changed all that.
The second part is the Federation and surrender. This is to assume even under Sisko's recommendation that Starfleet would surrender even under overwhelming odds. Now introduce Section 31, 2 years ago the seed of the virus was planted. They knew the changlings were infected already. Even if they were faced with overwhelming force (which they weren't) they likely wouldn't surrender because they held the trump card all this time. Either they will die, and they lose, or you bargain for your non-agression pact with a cure. Surrender was never a option at the highest level of Starfleet even if Sisko called for it. Besides the virus, Starfleet has always shown a determination to never give up even when faced with insurmountable odds. That death be better than a life in servitude, one of the reasons the Klingons liked Starfleet, the fought to the bitter ends, sometimes at the cost of their lives just like they would. Proven by such canon incidents like the peace treaty after the destruction of Enterprise-C
interesting
underrated XD good thinkin
i gota imagine that if starfleet surrendered it would've been demilitarized (some irony in there)
and if the founders died, the 2 slave races they had would've probably started genociding federation worlds in retaliation for having their gods killed
‘War is a necessary evil. No matter how necessary, it is still evil.’
"We are at war with terror. War means casualties. Airstrike approved."
'In the Pale Moonlight' is one of the best episodes of DS9.
That is my absolute favorite episode of DS9.
Yes, all those lives lost- if only they would surrender.
There's a saying about "living on one's knees" that might be relevant here.
Obviously you have never read "Catch 22".
Not recently- but existential threats and all...
People say it is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees, but really it's better to live on your feet rather than die on your knees. If you think about it my way is better.
I think ds9 is the most realistic view of what the federation would actually be like.
As Sisko said it's easy to be a saint in paradise
"Road to hell"? The Federation won the war. It wouldn't have if Sisko and Starfleet Command had followed Bashir and his "enhanced" friends' defeatist advice (which would have resulted in far more deaths, ultimately). That's what Sisko was trying to tell him: That he and his "team" were not clairvoyant, that they were talking out of their asses, that they had no idea what might happen. It's like Arnim Zola's algorithm from "Captain America II: The Winter Soldier": predicting the future based on the past by definition cannot take into account the unexpected. Bashir's friends didn't foresee the wormhole aliens eliminating Dominion reinforcements; they didn't foresee the Romulans entering the war; they didn't foresee Section 31 using Odo to infect the Great Link with that lethal pathogen; they didn't foresee Starfleet declining to treat Roddenberryism as a suicide pact. That's why Sisko is my favorite Trek captain.
I loved this episode in so many levels. Sisko had very few to almost no options in winning the war given the Federation and Klingons have been suffering one defeat after another.
This is where desperation and willing to cross a line comes into play. By making a deal with Garak - a former spy, saboteur, and assassin - do what needed to be done to get the Romulans on board, that took guts to make that call. Let's face it: the Romulans have been paranoid and are willing to pay vulture as long as it suits them. They're willing to make a deal with The Dominion as long as there's a ceasefire agreement in exchange of being left alone. Sisko knew this. Starfleet's war-time brass and intelligence heads knew it. The Klingons also knew it because they're taking losses due to The Dominion's ability to nullify Starfleet's ability to fight. Something had to be done to level the playing field and the Romulans were the key to boost the battered Federation & Klingon fleets.
The war, as a whole, was a brutal wake up call for the Federation as well as the entire Alpha and Beta Quadrants. What Sisko did was logical. Sometimes, you have to do something questionable so there's a fighting chance. This isn't a conflict of left or right ideology, but rather, a compelling story of having a conscience to live with making a gamble. Every great military leader, even a head of state, has to live such decision making so others don't have to. That's what I love about that episode.
The best episode of Deep Space Nine and quite possibly the best episode of Star Trek.
There is SO much to be said about this one episode, but since you split this into two I'll do the same with my comments, and wait for your next video to say the rest. Here I'll only say that if the Federation fell, the Romulans would have been easy pickings. Don't forget all the other recent episodes you did about the Founders and their ability to take over empires without firing a shot. The Romulans increased paranoia would only have served to make them *more* susceptible to Dominion machinations. The Federation was the *only* thing standing between the Dominion and an easy takeover of the Alpha Quadrant, due to their ability to unite people.
This is my favorite DS9 episode by far! The one thing I took issue with is I always 'felt' Sisko should have done all of this without the knowledge of Starfleet Command.
just watched in the pale Moonlight this morning.
great episode.
I would agree with Sisko when he was talking to Brashir. Rather die a free person or a hero than living on you knees.
sure
Also I do have to agree with some of the commenters belows; it's highly likely Garak orchestrated most of the events that lead to the Romulan ambassador being assassinated (even procuring the materials for the explosives used to kill him). Sisko was dancing with the devil in the pale moonlight. Or in this case, Garak, who has the complexion of pale moonlight. God this was a good one.
that episode, despite the scene at quarks, has to be one of my favourite episodes in the whole of trek. :)
Sisko did not have the authority to offer a surrender.
7:55 - Sisko was always "definitively black".
+MKDumas1981 ...wah wah..
Surrender and trust the lives you swore to protect under Dominion rule? Yeah fuck that.
Honestly I would've done the same as garak because under the Dominion the best you could hope for is vassal status and that is if you proved yourself valuable enough, if you didn't then you would be a slave to be used as a resource and discarded as such.
No surrender..... I think it shows the horrors of war and the changes war does to people I think it was an awesome episode
Don't forget, the bricks that are laid for the road to Hell, are always made of good intentions.
I think this arc put a true spin on the story - human captains aren't perfect, and they will go to whatever length necessary to win and save their people.
Every captain is willing to go down with his ship while it's safely afloat, it's only when it's taking on water and people are drowning that things change.
My only issue with pale moonlight (which is one of my favorites in my favorite star trek...god i miss this show...season 8 please?), anyway wouldn't anyone on DS9 have put the pieces together. The scattered crumbs... that is my only question with this GREAT episode.
I enjoy the hell out of this episode. It's one of the few throughout Star Trek where the Federation doesn't embarrass me as a human for their lack of willingness to do what needs to be done to win. However. They spend an enormous amount of time and effort (and expense; that biomimetic stuff isn't cheep and it leaves a paper trail) to try to trick the Romulans into joining the war effort. And it only succeeded by accident. I wonder if it wouldn't have been easier instead to just flip the caper and instead try to convince the Dominion and the Cardassians that the Romulans were going to betray them instead. How hard could that have been? I mean...Romulan. If they knew anything about dealing with Romulans, and the Cardassians did, they'd be prepared for the inevitable double-cross anyway. Fabricating one would certainly have been easier to pull off if the Dominion were already looking for it, the Dominion would have visibly prepared for a Romulan Front, the Romulans would have panicked and preemptively joined the beleaguered Federation and Klingon allies in the only option for victory.
The Dominion woke the sleeping Giant. Since Star Trek is an allegory, and the Federation has always (except for STD) been an allegorical representation of the USA, the Federation (just like the US), follows the sleeping giant type. If you bargain in good faith with the Federation, you're good, but they can fight just as dirty, or dirtier, than their aggressors. The Dominion found this out the hard way eventually.
Mr Red Fox quark said once something about humans. They can be really nice as long everything is fine. But let them hunger. Let them be desperate. Push them to the edge. They will fight as viciously as klingons and be more vile than you could imagine
That episode was The Siege of AR-558. Quark was talking to Nog.
Tim Dallmann Yeah, especially when Section 13 gave the Founders essentially changeling AID's via Odo. I'm not saying it is right, but the Founders essentially created 2 slave races- the Vorta that were all just clones, and those poor Gemhadar. They genetically a species to be drug addicts to control them. The Dominion was a pretty messed up place.
Tim Dallmann As I stated in my comment; leave the Federation alone and they're cool, deal with them in a fair an open manner and they're cool... but if you threaten the fabric of Federation society and substance- watch out! The founding members of the Federation are humans, Vulcans, and Andorians. All 3 essentially came from societies that at some point almost destroyed themselves. Savagery is in all of them. I see the typical Star Trek interpretation of the Federation as being not only the idealized government, but showing the constant struggle of the better, enlightened nature vs the Savage one. It is an ongoing struggle.
Not really, the Dominion was pretty much handing the Federation their own asses. It took the help of the Klingons, the Romulans and the wormhole creatures ( At least once directly and it was hinted that they were indirectly helping the entire war.) to beat back the Dominion. The Federation was anything but a giant. It is number one great power in the Alpha Quadrant, yes. But it was barely able to hold on against an unscrupulous and technologically equal or even superior foe like the Dominion.
I think you're misreading Sisko's motives here. I don't get the impression that surrender was ever an option for him, and I don't get the impression that he ever regretted not surrendering. Surrendering isn't winning, it's simply choosing to lose. Sisko determined that with the conduct of the war and the loss of lives, that winning with the present course of action was unrealistic, so he chose a different course of action. He was a "win at all costs" guy, not a "I wish I'd surrendered" guy.
As always, AWESOME JOB!
thanks, I try ;)
I don’t think Graython Tolar’s mischief at Quark’s is so contrived: Weylond Bitters, man
Surrender is not a option. By any means necessary the war must be won and victory in our breath.
War, politics, business, all that matters is achieving your goal
Hi, Great video as usual. However I disagree on one point. You say 'Sisko got several of Garaks operatives killed.' That's what Garak says. We dont know that Garak had any operatives or that anyone was killed. Remember "Never tell the same lie twice."? I think sisko was manipulated by Garak
Do you have a link to where I'd be read that speculation on Romulan intensions you mentioned at 2:17?
Don't worry I think I've got it www.reddit.com/r/DaystromInstitute/comments/6xevsc/the_romulans_were_always_going_to_enter_the/
there were a couple.. that was one of them..
I have a suggestion...
You should do an episode about the Ferengi, comparing them to the federation... the pros and cons...
In my view the writers emphasize their greedy nature, however, the question is who is maybe morally superior, or maybe who is more civilized, less violent and less prone to conflict..
Because interestingly, beyond the flowery view we are given about the federation they seem to find themselves in conflict often whereas the Ferengi almost never have had the problem or perpetual war.. in fact the Ferengi are so consumed by profit that they do not wish to be a military powerhouse because it's an expensive proposition with no return unless you're talking about being mercenaries.
They don't conquer or subjugate other species, generally keep to themselves and the worst they do is screw people over financially. Compare that to starfleet who, as you have pointed out, violate the territory of other powers, smuggle illegal goods into said territory, combine that with guys like Sisko actually laying waste to planets with innocent people, and to top it off, the federation allowing it's subjects to be annexed by Cardassia when they likely could have smashed them and been in a superior, rather than equal, bargining position... and etc etc.
If starfleet is like the borg, then the Ferengi civilization is more civilized.. granted their views on women wouldn't jive with our modern 'sensibilities' but I'm not going look at one aspect and discount the entire society merely because it isn't perfect... and it's quite telling that even with that track record they still appear to be more civilized that the federation. This is just my opinion but an examination comparing the two would be interesting.
Deal with Garak, or go to jail...the ultimate no win scenario...lol
All this episode really show is when you enter a fight, you enter to win. There is no honor in death, no glory in defeat. You fight to win, if it means you fight dirty to win so be it. Did Sicko commit a war crime? By our standards yes, and had the Dominian won Sicko and all other survivors in command would be tried for war crimes. However, the federation won so the act was not a crime but a great event in helping gain victory.
No retreat baby no surrender!
Considering Blue-Fish-Head was a hologram expert, he may have made programs considered illegal. Maybe this wasn't his first espionage rodeo, especially with Garek.
sure
I think there is a misinterpretation of Sisko's thinking process here. I doubt that he considered surrender, nor should he. The point of that episode was that one cannot predict future because even individuals can change the course of history. This is essentially the moral of almost all American TV, even though it rarely is true in real life. But in the "Pale Moonlight" Sisko actually proves that contention, but probably not as he had envisioned.
+Pekka Kohonen if you were told that you could save lives by surrendering..not surrender and then weeks later saw you were losing and tens of thousands were dying..you think you might consider what would have Happened had you surrendered ?
Best episode of Trek because it gives us human struggles that we can relate to. High ideals clash directly into real world issues. Trek ALWAYS takes the high road. It was a shock to see what it would take to break those ideals. The writing and pacing is what really sells the episode. Bad writing would have ruined it.
I think it's as realistic to gene's vision that you can get.
Just realized no Facebook like community tab stuff in my feed today, figured I'd drop some positive feedback on that feature as I oddly enough missed not having that today
ahh how cool :) I've had a few people ask me.. I honestly try to limit my community stuff so that it is worth reading and such and was so busy didn't have anything to add. I'm glad people get something out of it though.
Sisko achieved so much more then Picard or Kirk put together.
If Starfleet had a Ministry of War they should choose Sisko.
BadwolfGamer
Janeway
did more space exploration
more first contact with new alien species
kicked more different alien asses :
Kazon
Viidians
Vawdwaar
Hirogen
Species 8472
Borg
she did make quantum leaps in advancing
Starfleet capabilities
and Federation values
unlike Sisko
Janeway didn't see herself as a GOD
she saw herself as a flawed human woman and Captain
Captain Kathryn Janeway
best since
Kirk and Picard
Janeway was in a do or die situation Sisko not so much.
Sisko had the weight of the Alpha quadrant on his shoulder. If it wasn't for him there would be no place for Voyager to go home to.
At least Sisko knew he had allies he could somewhat rely on.
Ha Vu
if it weren't for
Janeway
Sisko would have been
assimilated by the BORG just as the entire alpha quadrant would have been
the BORG were so obsessed
with Janeway
the said
" FUCK EARTH "
Well, we already knew from TNG that Starfleet high command is not above deception, so this wasn't surprising at all.
@lore reloaded There was no surrender to the Dominion, if you hadn't gotten the gyst from the Episode With Quark and a Gamma Quadrant Trader Trader: "I cannot be caught on your ship or the Dominion will kill me and my family" or was it "myself and my crew" anyhoot the quote is something like that. They sewed in seeds through the series to secure the dominion are Xenophobic Space Nazis. Cheers
wasn't Bashir a changeling at this point?
Don’t judge unless you walked in his shoes...
4:37 That is, of course, assuming Garak isn't just lying to Sisko about that. As SF Debris points out in his Garak perspective, it's very possible that Garak had already considered this path - even before Sisko asked him - and decided it was an exercise in futility and had the "fabricate the evidence" plan as an alternative already, just in case.
6:00 Given that the man apparently an expert in forgery of some kind, I always presumed the Klingons were going to execute him based on a crime related to his field. Then again, from what we know of the Klingon justice system, they could have sentenced him to death for a crime as innocuous as spray painting, "Gowron's mother smelled of elderberries!" on the wall of the Great Hall.
I've heard sfdebris theory as well, yea.
I agrée with your analysis. My opinion was always like high stakes poker. Sisko had one laser focused goal: to defend the Federation at any cost - except surrender. Unlike other captains, he HAD to tell Starfleet. It's all about the uniform. Being self righteous and confident, he knew these desperate Admirals would agree. At each obstacle, Sisko adapted to the situation given to him or created one himself. This is what being focused does. If Garak didn't blow the shuttle, I'm certain Sisko would have leaked information to the Cardassians that Vreenak had manufactured data on the Dominion to justify declaring war. It's unlikely Vreenak would survive the encounter. As you correctly stated, he needed Romulus. As humans, it is in our DNA to first survive at any cost. And our moral values come second.
There's an interesting idea.. if he had tried to do something should it have failed.. and what that would have looked like..
This is absolutely my favorite episode of all the Star Trek series. For many of the reasons you stated, in fact. I must disagree with you on Grethon Tolar. It doesn't seem contrived to me that someone just released from months or years in a Klingon prison might feel amorous and, after drinking at least four bottles of booze, might want to express those feelings with a willing participant. Especially if he thinks he might have just received the death sentence by hearing the name Garrak. Maybe he thought " hell, I'm a dead man anyway so why don't I try to have a Little Lovin before I get killed". I am certainly familiar with the fact that things get out of hand in proportion to the amount of alcohol involved.
Oh sure... all his contacts died... because as Garak says later if you want to give someone a good line tell them "many good men died...".
Realistically did the Federation and Klingon Empire have any choice? Would the Dominion ever leave the main Alpha powers be? Or would Dominion always seek to control all other powers even those just minding their own business?
Hm...Garak probably lied about his operatives being dead (hell, I doubt he sent any to die in the first place, he would always have his ear to the ground to pick up anything useful against the dominion, but actively endangering his assets for info that might not even exist (yet)? I doubt it...also: Siske never actively agreed to have the senator killed, that is what Garak did to sell their manufactured evidence to the Romulans! Yes, Sisko could live with it and did, but he never ordered that or agreed with it!
So I have never loved the incident with Quark and Greython, it is one I can justify. As you said, he spent years in prison, undergoing constant stress and, well, psychological torment (we will kill you today, then not. He said it was one of the little games they used too play, who knows how many others there were). He is someone who clearly didn't live an upstanding life before hand either. So him going too a bar too drink, despite being told not too, and getting 'grabby' (too say the least) with one of the beautiful girls there is something that I can easily see. I like your solution a lot better, but I do follow the logic of the written one.
ITS a FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE!!!!!!!!!! NO! ITS REEEAL!!!
SOmething the Federation should learn about is obviously "The Art of War" By Tzun Tsu.
Bashir is just sadly naive at this point!
I don't agree with your assessment of the Tolar situation. Criminal psychopaths (even talented ones) have a tendency to feel that anything they do is justified, even if they have just narrowly escaped punishment for their past actions. The tendency to do something they think is OK, even if others think it is bad, is intrinsic to their nature. Their ability to reflect about past actions as a guide to temper their next seems to be faulty, in some cases to the point of never seeing how what they are doing is wrong in any way. I can see someone like him doing something similar to past actions that have gotten him in so much trouble without ever considering the consequences.
The best thing about DS9 is that it shows what the Federation isn't suppose to be which happens to be what most absolute diehard Star Trek fans gripe about.
I honestly think it makes it more realistic.. Even Gene's vision feels more real with it.
Lore Reloaded
Star Trek from TOS to TNG felt too perfect, that humans were almost infallible who achieved the perfect balance of "superiorism" with modesty and humility...I know, it's a contradiction of terms but that's how the Federation was perceived. We got to see that break down and how flawed their system was in a different environment. It's not all lovey dovey hippy peace signs after all.
I have to disagree with the idea of surrendering to a force like the dominion. Even if you can keep them out of your territory, you've shown them your weakness, that you're scared of fighting them, of losing lives, something that they really aren't afraid of. You've given them a foothold as well in your territory, something that they will exploit, and they'll be back to destroy you. Maybe in a 5 years, maybe a decade, maybe an entire generation, but they'll be back, and you won't stop them that time.
It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
Bashir's idea in surrending would not go well for the federation
The dominion rule over the gama quadrant from what I remember correctly they were far from well off.
Tyranny rules over them.
Sisko did not want that to happen.
Bashir assumes people would rise up and push the dominion back.
My question is how?
There would be resistance but it would be difficult to push them out. The jem'hadar (think I spelt it wrong) cloning facilities would continue to grow,making it harder to push back.
But let's assume they do push them back I doubt the federation would ever be reborn creating several powers that would most likely war with each other.
The peace the federation brought within their borders would be undone and it would be unlikely to happen time soon.
Edit
That is how I see it from what I remember.
With Hollywood leaning towards grimmer and grittier vs hopeful it leads me to think this episode, more than any other, lead the producers of Discovery to take the path they did. The "We're a happy crew and we're pimple free!" wasn't going to cut it in today's TV market. Even Orville has taken this path although they haven't embraced as much as Discovery has.
I think they did want to go grittier.. I could never see DS9 doing what discovery has done..
I think they clearly did (if we grant them the massive assumption they actually cared about making star trek) but they failed to understand why that was a good idea. That you need to balance between darkness and light, between gritty and noble. Discovery clearly massively fails to understand that. Why DS9 worked so well, especially in this episode, is because we see the federation (and our protagonists) are trying to do it right. It's just not always successful.
Wouldn't the Romulans be TOO LATE if they waited (hell, Sisko and the others still had a tough fight on their hands even with the Romulans there - a fight they could have still lost!)
Sisko and garek did what they needed to do too win the war
One of the reasons I love "In the Pale Moonlight" is because it shows the nonsense of claiming humanity has "evolved." Evolution implies that the species has fundamentally changed, which wouldn't happen in just a few generations. The changes to humanity in the Star Trek universe are the results of cultural shifts brought about by advancements in technology and (mostly favorable) engagement with the wider galactic community. Strip those things away, and humans are still prone to reverting to their baser instincts. Humanity hasn't evolved, it has only reformed, and that reformation is a process that must be guarded if it is to continue.
I have conflicting feelings on Sisko and Starfleets' actions before and during the Dominion War. I understand Sisko's actions during _In the Pale Moonlight_ since he sacrificed his honor and helped kill dozens of people while I am enraged at Admiral Ross subverting the Romulan gov't _Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges_ since it violates the Prime Directive. Plus, Section 31 infected the Founders with their virus long before the war begun in an act of genocide.
Recall that the Dominion War never happened in the timeline shown in _The Visitor_ where Sisko died and Bajor allied with Cardassia so the war was preventable. Maybe the Federation should have prepared more on preventing the war instead such as strengthening Cardassia by trying harder to stop the Klingons and/or forcing the Federation colonists out of the Badlands since the Maquis were a threat to them.
Have to disagree on the waiting. reember the Dominion War was fought by the Cardassian fleet and infanstruture plus was forces the Dominion sent before the Wormhole was mind. the Federation Alliance never fought the full strength of the Dominion.
Stop right there! Yes, they gave Ben a carte blanche more or less, but no they didn't know what Ben exactly did and I don't know that they'd have agreed! Hell, they didn't want to know for this exact reason IMHO!
To all those that think 900 billion is too high a number thin of it like this....there are 7 billion people on this planet alone....it would only take 128 or so planets to reach 900 billion...I'm sure there is more than that in the federation....but that was the estimate but Bashir not the actual final count
right
I don’t think your comparison of statistical probabilities and in the pale moonlight is entirely fair. Yes both are concerned about savings lives. But Bashir wants to sacrifice freedom to save lives. Sisko wants to temporarily sacrifice hiss moral ideal in order to save lives AND preserve freedom. Remember the line “people are dying out there every day”. But it continues with “entire worlds are struggling for their freedom”. So this isn’t just lives for lives. It’s save lives so we can exist as slaves verses save lives and preserve our freedom. I know I got one would rather die as a free man then to live as a slave.
"They probably had families" Not anymore they don't.
If they had ever found out about this i think Section 31 would have asked Sisko and Garek to head their operation!
+Terry F Maybe one day they did
Do you really think surrender would have been a better option? I mean "we're slaves to a tyrannical leadership of changelings enforced by the brutality of the Jem'Hadar, but at least we're alive!"
Sisko refused to surrender bc when your freedom and self-determination is at stake...surrender is not an option.
Yea the last part really sounds heroic on a movie poster doesn't it? That said ... surrendering as a better option.. probably not..no
You tell me. History tells us that when faced with the choice of fighting for freedom or being oppressed, the fight will occur. In other words, Sisko was doing the same thing so many others in humanity's history have done. If you know the history of the Revolutionary War, a third of the colonists wanted to remain with the British, so I'm sure Bashir represented a minority of Federation citizens who had been affected by the war. Doesn't make it the "better decision".
That's why the abridgement of freedoms these days come cloaked in "good intentions" and false advertising...humanity does not respond well to outright restriction and enslavement.
No.. history has shown that sometimes the oppressed will just sit back and take it..ironically sometimes (albeit rarely) they win. If we are talking real world history
Who just sat back, took it, and just won? Most will fight, even if they do so covertly. They will only surrender when they have no other option.
I'm surprised section 31 wasn't ahead of Sisko and already planning something like this, then again they had their latinum bet on genocide of the changelings and the Romulans entering the war didn't automatically guarantee victory as we saw with the Breen.
Though their plan also had considerable risk involved as their plan assumes that the jem hadar would all kill themselves rather than go on a massive killing spree across both alpha and gamma quadrants killing alliance, cardassian, breen and anyone else in their way before they are stopped or everyones dead and they then turn on each other in an attempt to avenge their gods
I wonder if they knew about it - but just let things play out..
Lore Reloaded I don't think they knew because if they did then 31 would be all over it in a second
LOL. Are you crazy? It was NEVER Sisko's choice to make. He ran a station, he did not run Starfleet. He couldn't stop the conflict even if he wanted to.
Hibbs4Prez yea.. dialogue has indicated multiple times that starfleet command listened to his suggestions... I mean if you don’t accept dialogue :p
WE WILL FIGHT ON AR-556, WE WILL FIGHT ON THE PROMENADE AND CHINTOKA, WE WILL NEVER SURRENDER.
One if not the best episode in ds9 sisko did what needed to be done to save the alpha quadrant if he would have listened to bashier the dominion would have killed the federation anyway
the bet or only choice rarely feel good
I never thought that what Sisko did was all that incredible, except for the murder part, but even there Garak KNEW Sisko would always have trouble going all the way and helped push it along himself.
Why did I not consider Sisko's final decision, final log entry that never happened, all that surprising? Because the Dominion does not value life. This was proven repeatedly, both with war tactics and direct quotes from key characters? Remember what they planned to do to Earth when they won? Surrender was never an option, not because of pride, but because of reality. If your foe is out to BEAT you to obtain something, that's one thing, but if your foe is out to destroy you... that's something else entirely.
I think you should be careful to consider in your future analysis that Sisko had seen how far the Dominion and, specifically, the Founders would go, and how little regard they had for the lives of "Solids".
Still, this episode was amazing, and sends a strong message about having to be alive to actually stand on your moral high ground.
I doubt the war cost 900 Billion lives within the Alliance. I also feel that you do not grasp how military units actually function, and the role that an O-6 plays.
Your argument would be with Julian Bashir who quoted those numbers , and you'd be surprised at my understanding when it comes to military rank and command. Thanks for the comment.
The ends never justify the means, if you have to do something evil to get a good ending the the ending is evil not good because of what you have to do
Tea Jay
Maybe not,but there are things that have to be prevented at ALL costs. In the context of the video that would be losing to the Dominion (see some of the other comments for reasons).
dominion would've killed every last one us or crushed us as slaves
the hell with that, wheres my phase rifle
Bashiers suggestion would technically save lives. If you call being genetically manipulated by the Dominion to serve their purposes "living". They did it to every other species they conquered.
That's not true.. We really only have evidence of two species (and I'm not convinced the Jem'hadar are wholely unique).. They had dominion over hundreds of races - most just subjigated.
If humans were lucky then maybe. Somehow I doubt it. They think the Federations engineers would be an asset. They would probably genetically/eugenically manipulate our entire species to be "Worker bees" and improve their technology. You have to admit. It's possible. Our entire race could be turned into slave engineers.
+Stephen Arseneau That's not what we see from them. They might enslave or require humans to be worker bees but they had control of hundreds upon hundreds of civiliazations and only genetically manipulated two so.. Eh..
With all due respect, that's a huge maybe. We don't know how they run the Gamma Quadrant. And I don't feel like arguing with you on your own page. LOL
+Stephen Arseneau You are welcome to discuss :) Point of the channel. We do know how they treat other species because the crew of the defiant interact with the species under the thumb of the dominion. They learn of the dominion through their subjects.
900 billion died in the war? First time I heard that number. Is that cannon? Where you get that number from?
+studinthemaking that was the number given by Bashir in statistical probabilities..he may have been wrong
There is little if any chance the Dominion would leave the romulans alone.
Dominion rule or death.
Ultimatums are cruel.
That how evil Starfleet admiral are created. loll
Best episode in all of Trek by the way.