I mean it was tough on the soldiers but for the average Fed citizen? Yeah it was Tuesday brunch and then a nice walk. The same could be said about many recent US wars actually.
This conflict has always bugged me. In TNG Cardassia has always felt like a fifth rate power that's puffed up over the fact the Federation didn't just park several ships in orbit and tell them to cut their bullshit Or Else. Which I suppose is horrifyingly realistic. The conflict wasn't given the attention, resources, or comittment that it honestly needed because the Federation genuinely either didn't care or were more focused on the Klingons, or whatever else.... and with the Dominion War all those skeletons came home to roost.
Things were actually looking up. The Obsidian Order suffered massive casualties attacking the Dominion Homeworld. Which accelerated the dissident movement taking over. But then then Klingons attacked, driving the Cardassians right back to militarism and the Dominion alliance.
Yeah, if Starfleet had given them a serious reality check instead of waffling about, the conflict might have been over in 2 years instead of 20. One can only hope the Federation learned from the various conflicts of the late 24th century that even if you want to peacefully explore, sometimes you have to defend yourself and oters, and that can't be done half-heartedly.
It's not really I the Federation's nature to hold people at gunpoint. I always wondered if Spock and Sarek's very public disagreements had to do with approach. I can see Sarek arguing for containment and diplomacy, and Spock arguing for a swift strike against major manufacturing nodes in their economic network.
I suspect the Federation was playing a more sinister long game. Cardassia Prime and their core systems were resource-poor. Therefore, the Cardassian Union was economically dependent on colony worlds and territorial expansion. Because the Federstion has no offical ground forces, the Cardassians could win on the ground. But they could and often did take *apocalyptic* casualties in space. Which means every time the Cardassians launched an invasion fleet, they fell further and further behind the Federation as a whole economically and technologically. Add in internal resisance groups like the Bajorans and the Maquis and the Cardassians would be plagued with having to spend even more manpower and resources on their increasingly obsolete military until their enitre way of life "collapsed from within." At which time the Federation would reach out a friendly hand the same way they did for Bajor all those years ago...
“Relations between the Cardassians and Klingons have always been cordial…” “What about the Betreka Nebula incident?” “A minor skirmish…” “That lasted 18 yrs!” “That was ages ago…” Garak and Julian
The Cardassians and the Border War always felt like a bit of a clunky retcon into Trek continuity in The Wounded, i.e. a major power on par with the Romulans or Klingons who fought a major war against Starfleet but nobody referred to until this point. But I'm very glad they were added to Trek as we got DS9, O'Brien's backstory, the Maquis and Seska as a result 🙂
I was thinking the other day, when will we ever get another major race again added to Star Trek, like the Cardassians were added. Franchise wise they are among the top tier main civilizations. And I fear Star Trek will never have the attentions, time and care put into building up another main civilization. *We shall not see their likes again*
I dunno, I always felt like the cardassians were a second-rate power who would badger the bigger powers like the UFP, Romulans, and Klingons for a place at the table. Stronger amd larger than the civilisations who only have a handful of worlds, but not an organisation with hundreds or thousands of colonies.
I always viewed the cardassians of something akin to Russia throughout history, It was a major power but It was never often able to completely match up with the other powers. It was at best a regional power that could be a major threat within its own neighborhood and something you could not ignore or underestimate, with some limited ability to project itself of the international stage despite glaring fundamental weaknesses. But could never really threaten the existence of the other superpowers though conventional means, and its power came primarily from its ability to play the spoiler, Though combination of brinkmanship, limited provocations and wars, and destabilizing their neighbors through covert means. The Soviet Union was a brief exception to the State of affairs, and only partially throughout its existence.
To get another faction like the Cardasians we need 2 things. The first is another TNG like series to world build and show a time of relative peace. A place to add new content to the setting. The second is a DS9 like series that takes several elements of the setting and focuses on them. To flesh out and engage with them. Setting the location to a single station or starbase so that the crew can not move freely and have to deal with the issues. Regardless of series, the writing has to show restraint. The story must be allowed to take its time.
Cardassians were mostly bankrupt at that point and so were not considered as a major threat in TNG , until they became more powerful again during Deep space 9
I will say the border war kinda comes out of nowhere especially considering the way Picard talks about the Federation at the beginning of TNG. That being said The Wounded is still my favorite episode of TNG. Enjoy your channel, keep up the good work!
@@vic5015 Well it's not so much a line as just an attitude of the first two seasons that Starfleet hasn't had a major conflict in a long time. I mean it could be explained away by the skirmishes being small but I don't know.
@@bluediamonddirector Or, as suggested here in the vid, that Picard never really saw combat with the Cardassians and spent most of his time during that period essentially in the rear echelon where his combat actions--if any--were much smaller, slightly more random (Orion pirates and the occasional Ferengi, for example) and generally far less serious--the sort of thing he could more frequently talk his way out of. He's known as an accomplished diplomat, after all. So he'd've been getting updates and reports about what was going on over on the Cardassian border, being the captain of a starship and all, but without spending time there and seeing it for himself. That information would be inherently incomplete and sanitized--as is the way of all reports. They tend to understate the seriousness of things and/or add unintentional emphasis where it doesn't belong, all int he interest of being "just the facts." Facts without context can be highly misleading while still being truthful, after all. All of that combined--lack of experience on the border, more time spent in more civilized regions, and the monotone nature of official reports--would give him a somewhat more idealized view of the time period, I would think. And I get the feeling that most of his crew on the Ent-D by that point hadn't done much on the Cardassian front, either, which suggests a bit of an echo chamber effect going there. It's not until Picard starts to have to actually deal with the Cardassians directly and lean on the experience of those that _have,_ such as Chief O'Brien and Ro Laren in "The Wounded" and "Ensign Ro," that he starts to grasp what the realities of the past era actually were.
I wish I had this kind of perspective when I was still watching TNG on television. I always thought the Federation covered basically the entire milky way galaxy back then, when really, it's more a game of Stellaris I guess.
@@AberrantChibi there’s no official numbers. But the Enterprise D barely ever did any exploring. The rest of Starfleet probably bumped that number up a few percentages though, and Voyager certainly did.
The Galor-class gives the impression of a ship striving to give the most bang for buck, while lacking considerably in flexibility. Starships of nearly all types and factions rely on an EPS of one sort or another. They're basically large plasma generators and particle accelerators with all the various systems of the ship being powered and converting that energy to whatever end. The beating heart of the system is usually the warp drive with plasma relays and conduits reaching throughout a ship like blood vessels in the body. And every junction in the ship's hull design requires this plasma to be regulated to and away from the structure itself. This further complicates the ship's design and power system. The Galor is therefore designed to minimize junctions, requiring fewer resources to manage the ship's power. It's far longer than it is wide, allowing plasma streams to run the length of the ship uninterrupted. Most of the ship's power is devoted to the warp drive on one end and one prominent weapons' array on the other. The design is not so much a testament to the stagnation of the Cardassians as it is to the necessities they face and the compromises that have to be made when faced with a particularly bad neighborhood of the galaxy.
People have the wrong impression because they don't understand how real world weapon systems or ships work. The Galor Class is the exact thing militaries strive for, robust, easy to build and maintain, very adaptable and refit ready. People get way too caught up in trading card stats and playing games. Starfleet ships are actually an example of what not do and is completely irrational from a military POV.
War isn't really something you can phone in; the way the Federation handled itself in the Border Wars was a major misstep and a sign of just how the "Golden Age of Exploration" really dulled Starfleet's abilities and common sense. Once the Cardassians made it clear they were spoiling for a full-scale fight (and committing a few war crimes along the way), Starfleet should have put on its game face and actually focused their attention on the guys who were shooting at them. This would have a better chance of bringing the war to a swifter end, and allowing more time both for relations to normalize and for the Cardassians to have a chance to rebuild. A stronger Cardassia might prove problematic on paper by the time of TNG, but I'd say a shorter war, fewer casualties, and a longer period of peaceful coexistance with the Federation decreases that risk - especially if a quick defeat energizes the Cardassian Dissident movement and Wolf 359 causes the Federation to rapidly modernize and rebuild as it did in our timeline. Instead, the Federation, in the words of SF Debris, opted for the age-old strategy of "Kick my ass some more, please."
Agree wholeheartedly. The federation parking a small fleet of ships in orbit around cardassia prime after shattering their defenses would've sent a message to Cardassia that it needed to change Or Else. to say nothing of it possibly liberating Bajor a good twenty or so years sooner. Point is Cardassia is VERY statist in nature. So them being utterly humiliated would have them reevaluating what is best for The State and what is best at this point is to swallow thier pride and accept they got their asses handed to them for the sake of getting access to federation aid in rebuilding and potentially looking better on the galactic stage by taking the short term L so long term they'dh ave a more favorable position on the board.
If you are the Alpha Quadrant UN you can't just whack-a-mole every tin-pot dictatorship. You always have 47 conflicts cooking somewhere and have to carefully balance and mediate all aspects across all sectors.
That's the thing though. The Cardassians *Were Not* spoiling for a full scale fight at all. Despite the Cardassian ego the Obsidian Order is an effective enough intelligence service to know if they're only getting to parity against an enemy's fleet of deep space science ships even when they're attacking them two and three on one, then a full scale war isn't going to end well for them. There was no push deep into Federation space and the fact is that every time they went up against another major space faring power they were either spanked like with Starfleet or STOMPED like with the KDF. The Cardassians wanted to harass Starfleet enough that the Federation would pull back from the border region altogether and cede those worlds to Cardassia both for resources and so they could be a bugger zone against the bigger and more powerful Federation. Since Starfleet isn't actually an aggressive expansionist organization their goal was always just to get the Cardassians to chill out and talk. The Cardassians at that time were ruled by their military and militaries can only think of military solutions so peace or admitting to the Federation that they had food problems and resource shortages never entered the conversation as that would be admitting weakness. For that reason they kept creating problems along the border hoping that the Federation was either too cowardly to engage (false) or would get fed up and bail out (also false). But they also existed on the fact that the Federation never considered them anywhere close to an existential threat, so the Federation went on about it's business while the assets in the Cardassian theater dealt with the problems they were creating. If the Federation had crushed the Cardassian military when they first annexed Bajor then helped rebuild them with Federation technology, maybe things would've been different. But that would require the Federation to behave fundamentally out of character.
@@markmarano913 I think it's through the fact that it wasn't Just a starfleet problem with complicity, It was a federation problem more widely. That's because the federation is not a militarily expansionist power and is actually technically pacifist in its attitude towards the universe, and tend to view relations between species in terms of cooperation and mutual benefit. It's idealism left it blind in some ways and the result being in later conflicts they were kind of cut off guard and underprepared. Plus Starfleet is not a military organization, technically despite having military capabilities, It's an expiration and peacekeeping organization. The result it's not completely geared towards warfare which leaves it at something of a disadvantage.
I think people forget the Federation is a bloc and not a nation-state. Internal politics probably don't allow the Federation to take quick strong decisive action against an inferior foe like the Cardiassians for a variety of reasons. The Federation is composed of hundreds of worlds that are sovereign nation-states (very similar to the EU)... many of whom are probably not very interested in a war or being part of an Empire. Starfleet is probably always trying to remind members, allies and prospective members that it is not ruthless military organization like the Klingon Defense Force or the Romulan Navy.
The power dynamic in Star Trek always bugged me, the "Great" empires surrounding the Federation (Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians) were all single planet derived empires that mostly looked down/subjugated others within its borders which would tie up military resources. While conversely the Federation was a collection of 150+ member states all working within a standardized organization like Starfleet. Yes, obviously the militant races would be devoting far more of its resources to the military than the federation would, but even if the federation on a per capita base devoted like 1-2% towards its defense they would still dwarf the other empires in power since they have such an immensely stronger position without the dissent to tie down its forces. The federation should be able to lay down a fleet at the drop of a hat that others would have to orient its entire being for long periods of time to even think about matching.
I disagree, I say it's completely logical. If you take the Klingons as an example, they are a militant culture. They don't need as many people in non-military roles as other civilizations, so they can conscript a bigger percentage of their population. Everyone else just sends tribute or works for them. If you take the size of a warship's crew, it's really not that much. Probably a thousand, max. The Enterprise had a "crew" of the TNG/DS9 era was about 1000. But that included the families of Starfleet personnel. More than likely it's a few hundred. The size of a planet's population, in a world where resources are basically infinite, is probably in the high billions, maybe tens or hundreds. Even 1% of that is more than enough to have thousands of ships. If we were to take Earth's population today, 6 billion. Magically slap 500 people in a warship, we would have a fleet of 120,000 ships. With just 1% Imagine the Klingons, who probably have way, way more people in the military. It's entirely possible to have an empire built on a single planet, especially when these ships can just nuke a planet.
@@ryanw2744 Enterprise confuses things even more. Both the Vulcans and Andorians are said to be great empires rivalling the Klingons, yet we never really hear of their fleets again. The Vulcans at least seem to have retained some form of native fleet of formidable ships. (Though I think logically Federation member worlds aren't obliged to assign their home fleets under Starfleet)
@@ffnbbq that would strengthen the concept that the Federation is insanely powerful if every individual retains their fleets as a sort of "National Guard" since it would allow them to augment Starfleet in extreme situations.
Re: Dorvan 5, it was originally a Federation colony, but in whatever treaty negotiations they had with Cardassia, it switched over to Cardassian hands. The inhabitants essentially agreed to be under Cardassian jurisdiction at the end of that episode (probably begrudgingly). And Gul Evek had 3 sons, but 1 is still alive (in TNG, anyway) - "I don't want to lose the last one"
I think the Federation needs a dedicated Federation Navy, separate from Starfleet, which should remain an exploration/diplomacy-focused organization. More tactically-minded officers like Jellico could be transferred there. That way Starfleet can keep its values while having an actual, full military as backup when things do go south.
I think what happened in Picard s1 was leading up to that, with that dedicated battle fleet of lookalike ships. They made a ton of a combat-focused ship class, maybe as an experiment towards creating a dedicated combat force, so that when needed they could be used to take the brunt of battle, instead of starfleet always being stuck with it.
@@Timeward76That was actually a production screw up. The producers had left the decision for that big VFX scene until the last minute, which had the VFX teams scrambling to make the one ship model they had time to make and render the scene in a few weeks. The production team didn't even bother to check how "Zheng He" was pronounced. The artist who made the model disavowed it and instead used the STO model in season 2 when he was made VFX supervisor. The new production team also made it clear the One Ship Fleet was a mistake that was not going to be repeated again, hence all of those STO ships in the season 2-3.
The thing is that that's a very resource intensive solution for a problem that they don't really see as a problem. The Federation has Starfleet which can serve as a military fleet in times of war, but aren't just sitting around in spacedock in peace time. The requirements for an exploration vessel and a heavy ship of the line are very similar. What would likely happen is that in a time of war if the Federation was being pressed the military officers would then look at the exploration fleets and say "Why isn't that pretty Odyssey class in the fight?" There'd also then be questions of "Why are we sending out all of these under-equipped exploration vessels into deep space just to find more problems for us to fight". It would breed resentment between the services rather than making either's job that much easier. Also the optics would get muddy. Other powers would look at Starfleet as the scout fleet while the Navy is the conquest fleet. The Carrot and the Stick if you will. Starfleet's values have never precluded Self Defense and Starfleet has always been able to stand up to any military they've come across where they have anywhere close to technological parity. Often when Starfleet is against a superior foe like the Borg or the Dominion it's been their science and engineering ability as opposed to their tactical skill that carries the day.
Member planets and/or their empires have their own navies (the Andorian Imperial Guard being an uber example) in the Federation, and they're generally the ones responsible for border protection and internal policing. It was the weakness and decadence of Earth that by the time of DS9/VOY, Earth didn't have its own navy and just assumed Starfleet would act as their navy in times of distress, bc obviously a core founding world of the Federation would naturally get Federation ships, right? Combine that with absolutely neglected to nonexistent space and ground defenses from centuries of peace, and its no surprise the Breen curbstomped Earth during their raiding action. Whereas look at how much hell the grand alliance fleet faced just trying to get trough even the outer ring of planets and defenses of the Cardassian Union. A Federation Navy probably wouldn't work, since it'd devolve into extreme squabbling and infighting right away, especially over vulnerable planets demanding extra fleets, and safer, richer planets spurning their contributions they're supposed to make.. Look at how much of a mess it is to get NATO to do anything coordinated in our time. Multiply that problem by a thousand, thousand times.
Great video - this is by far the most interesting and least-discussed area of starfleet wartime lore, probably because there is so little information on it and we never got a full rundown of the conflict - but you've collected a ton of info here, excellent work.
The Cardassians WERE a formidable adversary. After the Dominion War there wasn't much left. Ironic because of the terrible things they inflicted on Bajor came back in spades.
@@christopherg2347 You realize that the Cardassian Empire also just came out of a civil war (or coup, it's not that clear). And a war with the Klingons, that went so badly the Federation had to step in, which obviously would have damaged it far more. The Dominion gave them a huge buff, but even then they played a major role.
@@nicholasgutierrez9940 The Klingons did that much damage with 1/3 of their Fleet and with massive logistics issues. While _also_ fighting the Federation.
Ah yes, the almost never mentioned border war between the Federation and Cardassia. We can only assume that the Federation rated them as a threat so insignificant that they did not commit much effort into the case - until it was almost too late. Id say that even in the later TNG era, the Federation could have easily steamrolled Cardassia, should the really had wanted to. But they gave them too much freedom and in the end they were able to catch up and eventually became the Dominions puppet, which cost them both (Federation and Cardassia) dearly.
starfleet thought the Cardassians wouldn't dare attacking a much larger and more powerful organization and so never really invested that much into defense in that area. they were caught by surprise when the Cardies invaded and managed to conquer several colonies . they kidnapped many civilians from those planets and that forced the Federation to make concessions in exchange for a ceasefire and getting back the hostages , and the cardassians were allowed to keep some of the territories they captured
Federation colonies, especially those on the frontier always seem to be virtually undefended. So it should not have been that much of a surprise that even a minor power like Cadassia could cause so much havok in the Federations backyard. All they need was to send one ship to a colony, unload a platoon of ground troops and they easily had the planet under control. And they now had lots of valuable hostages to trade. And as we saw in the case with O'Brien - the Cardassians were not above executing their hostages should the federation move in and try to retake the planet.
I always viewed it Star Trek's equivalent of the Korean war, a limited regional conflict with wider implications but it wasn't a threat to the federations existence but it was a major security concern that had to be dealt with.
Um, O'Brien was not a skill Engineer during the war. He specifically mentions at one point during DS9 that he didn't know the difference between (I believe it was) a replicator from a transporter, but at the last second he was able to beam everyone out of the situation he was in. This was DURING THE WAR.
If Starfleet committed the Galaxy Class to the conflict the war might have ended in very short order with Cardassia facing possible occupation by peacekeepers. All of Cardassia under a DMZ and saving a lot of grief later on...
There were only a handful of Galaxy Class ships available in the early 2360s and it is incredibly foolish to commit them in this type of conflict. *The potential loss of a single Galaxy Class far outweighs any advantage conferred.* A few ships are not shifting the balance. War isn't about trading card stats: It is about logistics, doctrine and planning. Why would the Cardassians bother engaging a single Galaxy Class when they can simply attack unarmed colonies or older ships? The entire war was characterized by hit-and-run attacks, and the Cardassians picking and choosing their battles. What are three ships going to change when both sides have fleets of many hundreds available? A Galaxy Class is not invincible. It just means the Cardassians counter with three Galor Type 3s instead of two.
Im guessing you missed the Galaxies getting casually blown up in DS9 in the later phases of the war. And no, those weren't "just" Dominion or Breen ships.
@@crownprincesebastianjohano7069 Six Galaxy Class Starships at the time and just enough it had the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, and even the Borg paying attention more ways than one. The Galaxy could give it just as she could receive it. If a Galaxy is flanked by to Nebula Class cruisers I be checking whether I wanted to live for another day very carefully. Just as the Sovereigns were feared by the Dominion, the Galaxy Class was paid attention to by the powers at the time. Deploy strategically and the war could have been shortened.
Thank you rick! You gave me more entertainment and a lot more to think about and imagine than any of the new trek. I could only imagine how frustrated Ron Moore was on tng maybe possibly shooting an idea to do a spin off or a mini series regarding the border wars.
O'Brien was not an engineer or specialist in transporters at the time of Setlik III. He was the tactical officer of the Rutledge. He states in an episode (I believe DS9 where Jake's interning for O'Brien) that he didn't know squat about transporters and scored poorly on his aptitude exam. He explains he had a limited time to fix the transporter and managed to get it to work seconds before the enemies overran their position.
Correction: O'Brien was not an engineer or a transporter specialist when the cardasians attacked at first. He says this himself in a voice line that basically says he had no idea about transporters and 4 minutes to get his team out, and he managed to fix the transporter in 3 minutes and 50 seconds and after that he was promoted to tactical officer on the Rutledge - or something to that extent
Thank you for this informative video. This helps piece together the whole dilemma between there apparently having been a Federation - Cardassian conflict despite there not being much direct explanation about it. God be with you out there, everybody. ✝️ :)
Cardassian Citizens on the wrong side of the border after the peace treaty weren't forced to leave, and neither were the Federation citizens in the end. That's what that whole TNG episode was about (where Wesley joins the traveler). That was part of what was so bad about the treaty, the Cardassians new the Federation would welcome cardassian citizens in their territory as a measure to try to assimilate them culturally. This would lead to them telling their family and other cardassians how good the Federation was to them, contrary to the cardassians attacking Federation citizens who remained on their colonies. It was also a major point from the DS9 Maquis arc. I believe Cmd. Cal Hudson made the point directly
I always believed that the only reason the Cardassians were able to go toe-to-toe with the Federation was because the Federation had to commit so many ships and troops to the Romulan neutral zone. This meant they couldn't bring their full might to bare and forced them to fight with one hand tied behind their back
the guy in the thumbnail is the starfleet equivalent of the recent incident with a US Navy commander having a photo op with his rifle scope attached backwards.
I don't know where people are getting the idea the Cardassian ships were just multiple levels of tech behind the Federation, or that the Union was way behind. They were only mildly behind, and that in specific sectors more than across the board - much of Starfleet's edge was just as much in "human" elements as much as machinery, which is of course what matters. PLENTY of Cardassian ships blew up Federation ships and without having to dogpile on them 3-to-1. No, the Dominion didn't "magically" make their ships just "better" after they arrived. Union ships used Union weapons still all to the end, you couldn't just rip off a Dominion polaron beam and attach it to a Galor. And even when the Cardassian military finally defected, they had no problem destroying Dominion ships (the "best") in battle. Not either sure where people are insinuating it'd have been no problem if the Federation had widened the sorta war with the Union into a full scale conflict. Again, look at the struggles the COMBINED fleet of the greatest Sector powers had in just breaching the outer ring of Cardassian core space - if the absolute buttload of powerful spaceborne assets didn't destroy you, the interleaving fields of fire from multiple fleet attack angles and reinforcing planets would. And those were all in place BEFORE the Dominion ever entered the Sector. If the Cardies were THAT easily able to be pushed over, there would have BEEN no Cardassian Union, and the Tholians and Breen would have been able to swallow them whole and spit them out centuries ago. Them being able to survive against the also technologically greater and more callous powers of the Tholians and Breens PLUS being able to hold the Klingons at bay doesn't point to some ramshackle about to collapse society.
Crew dossier material found in the game “Star Trek Starship Creator: Warp 2,” but not in other Star Trek-related sources, states that Captain Jellico lost two ships in heavy fighting during the Cardassian War while he was commanding them, with significant loss of life. This suggests that Captain Jellico is somewhat antisocial, confrontational, and sometimes unsure of himself not because he is a bad person, but because he has repressed PTSD. It also suggests that Captain Jellico may not always have had the negative personality traits we see in “The Ensigns of Command.” There is always the problem that if a warfighter or other person has significant PTSD, they cannot be treated unless they admit to themselves the existence of the affliction and unless they resolutely commit to addressing the problems. This is totally irrespective of the technology level available for medical and therapeutic approaches. The same reality can be seen with regard to the character Ernesto Zabaleta from Mass Effect.
This video is very interesting, but I would have liked some mention of the personal conflict of Spock and his diplomat father Sarek over the Cardassian-Federation War. I believe this Spock-Sarek conflict was mentioned in the TNG episode "Sarek".
It seemed like the real reason the Federation didn't just crush the Cardassians was more political than military. We see in TNG and DS9 how good the Cardassians are at manipulation and politics. The Obsidian Order has extensive intelligence on everything. The Central Command works often with other factions and races to undermine their enemies. There are also plenty of opportunistic factions who will exploit any conflict to their own advantage. You have Nausicaan and Breen Pirates. Ferengi arms dealers. The Orion Syndicate. Not to mention the Romulans, who are always trying to hurt the Federation any chance they get. The Federation knows they can defeat the Cardassians easily but they were far more concerned with the chaos that would erupt if they went through with it. The Cardassians could buy better weapons from the Ferengi. The Breen and Orions will raid colonies for slaves. The Romulans might secretly supply the Cardassians like they did with the Duras. Then what is supposed to be a quick war turns into chaos and dozens of systems get sucked into the conflict.
DS9 also revealed that the Federation had an unsurpassed intelligence agency that had its hands in the Tal'Shiar. It would not be unreasonable to assume Section 31 took a look at the Cardassians and decided they weren't a serious threat, and not worth fighting with.
There’s also the fact that they’d have to basically occupy a large swath of Cardassian territory if they were to steamroll them, along with relocating refugees and dumping a bunch of resources into the region to help rebuild. By keeping the borders essentially the same as they were before the conflict, the Federation didn’t have to provide any aid with reconstruction after the war. Also, stamping out a decently-sized regional power like the Cardassian Union is basically just asking those criminal elements to move in and start exploiting the region. With their vast territory and resources, the Federation essentially recovered before the proverbial ink dried on the treaty’s paper. Meanwhile, if they hadn’t signed on with the Dominion and even if they hadn’t gone to war with the Klingons, the effects that the war had on Cardassia would have reverberated for decades.
What is weird for me, they have 4 habitable planets in their home system. I played with a modded version of Birth of the Federation that gave the Cardassians four habitable planets and oh boy, your first 25 turns with this modded savegame are only preventing a famine and ressource collaps, but oh boy, when you were successfull you would dominate the rest of the game so easily.
I always maintain that a ceasefire had been going on for a few years by the time TNG started. I just can't believe that there was any kind of official war going on during early TNG. It doesn't fit with the tone at all.
My guess is that the Cardassians camped on stations and planets to force the Federation into ground combat where its more powerful ships wouldn't have the advantage. It's the only way the struggles in that war that O'Brien and Maxwell describe make sense when the warship the Enterprise fights in the Wounded seems a lot weaker. This kind of conflict also fits with the sort of war stories they tell in that episode. Plus, I think the writers of The Wounded wanted the Federation-Cardassian war to be kind of like Vietnam. However, I must disagree with the idea that the Cardassians had no friends and thus saw the Federation as another enemy. Considering Quark's bar dates to Deep Space Nine's last years under Cardassian rule, the Ferengi were probably allies of the Cardassians.
I’ve always believed the federation needed a dedicated military wing who’s mandate is to protect federation assets, be that escorting ships through dangerous space or smacking down uppity species once the proverbial trigger is pulled and war is declared. Having specialised training, dedicated marines (see MACO’s) combat focused ship refits with dedicated research and development to allow them to be the Federations strong right arm in counterpoint to section 31’s dagger in the dark. This wouldn’t ever happen, however to me it would make sense considering the frankly stupid amount of existential threats the federation faces and the farcical number of ships, men and materiel that’s been lost due to the stupidity of federation command.
Thanks to DS9, the Bajorans and Cardassians are probably the most fleshed out species on Star Trek besides Humans, Vulcans, and Klingons. I really wish the Cardassians were featured more in the shows and movies.
Seeing that map makes me sad. I still imagine what the Firangi would have been like, if they where the heart of a Federation of their own. Unifying their section of space in the same way Humans had, just with different methods for the same peaceful ideals. That map of smaller nations would have made up said 'consortium,' which is why it makes me a bit sad, because I can see each one of those nations forming some sort of cog in a bigger whole.
Its actually terrifying to think of the level of passivity needed throughout history to avoid the Prime timeline from just going "F it we tried being good" and goind Confederation Of Earth development of ships like the World Razer and just going "Qu'nos you take that part of the Cardy union territory we'll take this part and they will learn to be part of our respective unions or we'll dump them on some M class planets with stone age agriculture tools" Or take that mindset with the Breen, Tholians, Orions etc, hell they could have taken over the Dominion cloning and reprogrammed the jem'hadar or Vorta to be "reserve" troops with a in built enjoyment of mining ores for ships or aggriculture in peace time.
This is a amazing video on Star trek is there a video on the wars with the Borg and if not will there be one because I would like to see it anyway keep up the amazing work
A weaker power can go toe-to-toe with a larger and more powerful adversary… the weaker party can win if they hold out longer…are willing to do far worse deeds than the larger and more “enlightened”power. As with all large powers… as they grow bigger, wealthier and their standard of living keeps rising… the society in general becomes detached from the brutalities that are required to defeat an enemy. We just saw that happen in Afghanistan.
Someone gets it. I read most of the comments and two things stick out: 1) If the common view were true, they would simply be facts, and 2) The vast majority of people have zero idea how wars are fought and think the end all be all of conflict are trading card stats. People completely miss the point of the Border Wars and why the Cardassians are a threat.
I've always had a certain sympathy and fondness for the spoon-heads; they're a fine example of what happens when a people find themselves in extremis and an unfortunate culture of 'needs must, and boy do we have needs' allows their worst elements to lead. Cardassians in/of themselves seem to actually be pretty decent people but a century or two of nasty circumstances molded them into a real monster.
Great job on this. Your videos are always top notch. Just curious what music did you use? At one point I sort of swore I heard music from The Matrix Reloaded. I could be wrong but that's what it sounded like to me.
I would imagine that these "Border Wars", especially the battle of Setlik 3, with its use of ground forces since the Xindi conflicts back in the 2200's, was what influenced Star Fleet to reintroduce the M.A.C.O.s back into service. Before thne they werehardly utlized at all.
Why didn't *the Klingons join in on the Border Wars,* even unilaterally? The Federation were officially their Allies, so they actually had a legitimate excuse to do so. And if they did join to officially support their Federation treaty partners, it would improve Klingon/Federation relations - important to the then Chancellor. It would also make the Klingon Empire appear more formidable to other powers, due to the impression that if you war with them, then you also war with Starfleet. And best of all, it would be a good war....a *_Glorious War_* for the Klingon Empire. They would take much territory that boarders their own and fight against a foe that could put up a decent enough fight to earn glory & honour but wasn't at risk of defeating the Empire. And by fighting side by side with the Federation it would greatly reduce tensions between both powers, and the Chancellor knew that a Federation/Klingon war could be catastrophic for the Empire. Plus he apparently respected Starfleet honour. A occasional war is good for Klingon stability, their hotheads either get culled or tempered, and it provides opportunities to get rid of troublesome individuals like Duras by arranging for them to die in battle. Starfleet just assigns troublemakers to Oberths and lets nature take its course.
*Rick..* video _what if?_ idea. What if what I suggested occurs in an alternate timeline that splits right there. The Klingons join in a co-biligerence with the Federation, and its agreed by both that they will steamroll the Cardassians and force an unconditional surrender. *Chancellor K'mpec:* "I looked at your Earth history with WW2 and the surrender of Germany and Japan. And how afterwards they became staunch members of the winning side's alliance. Together, we can remake the Cardassians to be model Galactic citizens (🤞)." [That'll get the Humans onboard] The agreement is the Federation gets Bajor, and they both administer Cardassia together (or some other final split, but the Klingons know that the Federation liberating the Bajorans is a tempting offer). The Federation plays good cop to the Klingons bad cop in the war. So Cardassians flock to surrender to Starfleet forces.... like how in WW2, Germans fled to surrender to the approaching Americans and British rather than the Soviets. And what was formerly the Cardassian Union becomes just another part of the Klingon/Federation border. But one where Starfleet personnel are regularly invited by the Klingons to join them in drinking and songs about their great battles fighting side by side as brother (and sister) Warriors, not as an iron curtain between both victors.
The Cardassians assuming the UFP was just another aggressor is another example of "claiming the opposition is doing what yourselves are actually doing" as Apple, Samsung and car manufacturers have done
The Cardassian govt didn't really bother to understand the Federation, or they were just to stubborn to adapt their own attitude. If they had, early on, they could have gotten far more benefits from playing nice and getting trade and even assistance from the Federation in order to provide vital resources, especially food. At that time, the Federation was in its Golden Age, and may have been willing to try and play the diplomacy game of hoping to over time influence Cardassia, or at least keep them civil. Much like with Federation/Klingon relations. Peace and Trade were the Federations main goals. It's a pity for the Cardassian people they didn't make meaningful contact with the Federation before they "adopted" a authoritarian govt, as the Federation could have helped them not only with resources, but with defence against the other powers that were threatening Cardassia. Powers that were also an issue for the Federation. Prehaps in the Kelvin timeline Starfleet made contact with them much sooner, before they invaded Bajor and before they became a xenophobic hostile power?
The Federation's attitude to the Cardassians reminds me of the West's current engagement with Russia...... doing a half assed job which will leave them coming back to bite us hard later.
This war is really an example of the Federation being too naive and pacifistic. After so many decades of peace, the Federation Council became complacent, too aloof, clinging too tightly to their utopian ideals. No, they shouldn't have invaded Cardassia or anything ridiculous like that, but a firm response was very clearly required. The peace treaty had some good parts (Bajor becoming free being a highlight, even though it took a few years for the Cardassians to finally comply), but redrawing the border was a disaster. Setting aside the blatantly immoral act of forced relocation of entire colonies, it also led inevitably to conflict in the DMZ that neither the Federation nor Cardassians could stop. That led to the Maquis, who quite merrily humiliated the Cardassians repeatedly. Connect the dots and you end up with the Dominion War. That conflict was likely inevitable no matter what happened, but preceding events gave the Dominion a crucial foothold and a huge advantage. On the plus side, the Federation learned from their mistakes. The Dominion War began at a time and place of their choosing. More, despite presumably having solved the problem of Dominion weapons penetrating Federation shields some time prior, they deliberately waited for the war to begin before Starfleet started using these new shield calibrations. That led to some Starfleet ships on the border being easily destroyed before the war started, but when it started, it gave the Federation a considerable short-term advantage. Cold-blooded, but clearly necessary. TL;DR: peace at any cost does not grant peace.
I always feel Starfleet of this time is to “peaceful”. I know it’s not a military branch but how could UFP or Starfleet so unwilling commit a powerful military action when people under attack!? To me UFP seems willing use life of its citizens and territory exchange for “peace”. They spend to much time on WW3 forget about WW2? Starfleet has become so arrogant that always thinks can persuade the other party, to the point where he not only has a blunt knife in his hand, but also often refuses to use it even in self protect. A mistake need Borg and Q help to make then realize. Imagine when in Dominon War the best ship Stsrfleet can put in mass production is Excelsior
It always annoyed me that the Federation gave up numerous planets thus leading to the formation of the Marquis instead of sending 50 odd ships and forcing Cardassia to their knees.
Cardassia had the upper hand at the end of this war… the peace at all costs Federation gave away colony after colony world to appease the Cardies. Leave it to the Federation to show weakness.
@@leonardotavaresdardenne9955 by the time of the “trading of territory” the Cardies had sucked Bajor dry of the resources it wanted. It was of zero strategic value at that point in time. Terok Nor was a mining processing station and was not a heavily armed space station it was later modified to become under the Federation. Bajor only became significant once the wormhole appeared… and that was well after the trading of territories treaty occurred.
For the Cardassians, it was a major conflict, for the Federation, it was a Tuesday
Funnily, I made the same reference here before reading this.
@@christopherg2347 Raul Julia made that line awesome
I mean it was tough on the soldiers but for the average Fed citizen? Yeah it was Tuesday brunch and then a nice walk. The same could be said about many recent US wars actually.
And it's a good thing it was Tuesday because otherwise they wouldn't have tractor beams, photon torpedoes, etc.
well yes at least it wasn't a Monday.
"It's not you I hate, Cardassian. I hate what I became because of you."--Miles O'Brien.
Such a great moment, really showed the federation is not as militant as their enemies.
I liked how it was clearly a reference to The Troubles, that had just ended in real life. He’s Irish, after all.
He became a space wizard because of Cardassians?
Nabooian... I'm not cardassian.
This conflict has always bugged me. In TNG Cardassia has always felt like a fifth rate power that's puffed up over the fact the Federation didn't just park several ships in orbit and tell them to cut their bullshit Or Else.
Which I suppose is horrifyingly realistic. The conflict wasn't given the attention, resources, or comittment that it honestly needed because the Federation genuinely either didn't care or were more focused on the Klingons, or whatever else.... and with the Dominion War all those skeletons came home to roost.
Things were actually looking up.
The Obsidian Order suffered massive casualties attacking the Dominion Homeworld. Which accelerated the dissident movement taking over.
But then then Klingons attacked, driving the Cardassians right back to militarism and the Dominion alliance.
Yeah, if Starfleet had given them a serious reality check instead of waffling about, the conflict might have been over in 2 years instead of 20. One can only hope the Federation learned from the various conflicts of the late 24th century that even if you want to peacefully explore, sometimes you have to defend yourself and oters, and that can't be done half-heartedly.
It's not really I the Federation's nature to hold people at gunpoint.
I always wondered if Spock and Sarek's very public disagreements had to do with approach. I can see Sarek arguing for containment and diplomacy, and Spock arguing for a swift strike against major manufacturing nodes in their economic network.
Nice
I suspect the Federation was playing a more sinister long game. Cardassia Prime and their core systems were resource-poor. Therefore, the Cardassian Union was economically dependent on colony worlds and territorial expansion.
Because the Federstion has no offical ground forces, the Cardassians could win on the ground. But they could and often did take *apocalyptic* casualties in space.
Which means every time the Cardassians launched an invasion fleet, they fell further and further behind the Federation as a whole economically and technologically.
Add in internal resisance groups like the Bajorans and the Maquis and the Cardassians would be plagued with having to spend even more manpower and resources on their increasingly obsolete military until their enitre way of life "collapsed from within."
At which time the Federation would reach out a friendly hand the same way they did for Bajor all those years ago...
For Cardassia it was war, for the Federation it was some border skirmishes.
“Relations between the Cardassians and Klingons have always been cordial…”
“What about the Betreka Nebula incident?”
“A minor skirmish…”
“That lasted 18 yrs!”
“That was ages ago…”
Garak and Julian
This was nothing compared to the Kardashian War of 2014. Nearly crippled all of humanity.
😂😂
Almost brought us to our ends, butt..
General Ray J stabbed one Kardashian from the behind 😂
The younger Picard at the right side of the thumbnail hits hard. I like it.
i can only see netanyahu
@@dyscosticgive him a nice little slap for us, ok
@@dyscosticBen-Luc Picardyahu!
Starfleet seriously managed to maintain a stalemate without mobilising while Carsassia gave it everything
The Cardassians and the Border War always felt like a bit of a clunky retcon into Trek continuity in The Wounded, i.e. a major power on par with the Romulans or Klingons who fought a major war against Starfleet but nobody referred to until this point. But I'm very glad they were added to Trek as we got DS9, O'Brien's backstory, the Maquis and Seska as a result 🙂
I was thinking the other day, when will we ever get another major race again added to Star Trek, like the Cardassians were added. Franchise wise they are among the top tier main civilizations. And I fear Star Trek will never have the attentions, time and care put into building up another main civilization. *We shall not see their likes again*
I dunno, I always felt like the cardassians were a second-rate power who would badger the bigger powers like the UFP, Romulans, and Klingons for a place at the table. Stronger amd larger than the civilisations who only have a handful of worlds, but not an organisation with hundreds or thousands of colonies.
I always viewed the cardassians of something akin to Russia throughout history, It was a major power but It was never often able to completely match up with the other powers. It was at best a regional power that could be a major threat within its own neighborhood and something you could not ignore or underestimate, with some limited ability to project itself of the international stage despite glaring fundamental weaknesses. But could never really threaten the existence of the other superpowers though conventional means, and its power came primarily from its ability to play the spoiler, Though combination of brinkmanship, limited provocations and wars, and destabilizing their neighbors through covert means. The Soviet Union was a brief exception to the State of affairs, and only partially throughout its existence.
To get another faction like the Cardasians we need 2 things.
The first is another TNG like series to world build and show a time of relative peace. A place to add new content to the setting.
The second is a DS9 like series that takes several elements of the setting and focuses on them. To flesh out and engage with them. Setting the location to a single station or starbase so that the crew can not move freely and have to deal with the issues.
Regardless of series, the writing has to show restraint. The story must be allowed to take its time.
Cardassians were mostly bankrupt at that point and so were not considered as a major threat in TNG , until they became more powerful again during Deep space 9
I will say the border war kinda comes out of nowhere especially considering the way Picard talks about the Federation at the beginning of TNG. That being said The Wounded is still my favorite episode of TNG.
Enjoy your channel, keep up the good work!
I suppose it makes sense that some in starfleet did not consider it a war and just a border skirmish.
You mean when Picard says "Starfleet is not a military organization"?
@@vic5015 Well it's not so much a line as just an attitude of the first two seasons that Starfleet hasn't had a major conflict in a long time. I mean it could be explained away by the skirmishes being small but I don't know.
@@bluediamonddirector Or, as suggested here in the vid, that Picard never really saw combat with the Cardassians and spent most of his time during that period essentially in the rear echelon where his combat actions--if any--were much smaller, slightly more random (Orion pirates and the occasional Ferengi, for example) and generally far less serious--the sort of thing he could more frequently talk his way out of. He's known as an accomplished diplomat, after all.
So he'd've been getting updates and reports about what was going on over on the Cardassian border, being the captain of a starship and all, but without spending time there and seeing it for himself. That information would be inherently incomplete and sanitized--as is the way of all reports. They tend to understate the seriousness of things and/or add unintentional emphasis where it doesn't belong, all int he interest of being "just the facts." Facts without context can be highly misleading while still being truthful, after all. All of that combined--lack of experience on the border, more time spent in more civilized regions, and the monotone nature of official reports--would give him a somewhat more idealized view of the time period, I would think.
And I get the feeling that most of his crew on the Ent-D by that point hadn't done much on the Cardassian front, either, which suggests a bit of an echo chamber effect going there. It's not until Picard starts to have to actually deal with the Cardassians directly and lean on the experience of those that _have,_ such as Chief O'Brien and Ro Laren in "The Wounded" and "Ensign Ro," that he starts to grasp what the realities of the past era actually were.
It's my favorite, too.
I wish I had this kind of perspective when I was still watching TNG on television. I always thought the Federation covered basically the entire milky way galaxy back then, when really, it's more a game of Stellaris I guess.
Playing the UNE in Stellaris is basically playing the UFP. The Star Trek mods are pretty good though.
Wesley says Starfleet has only explored 19% of the galaxy in season 2 of TNG.
@@Woopaloops And by the time of series end?
@@AberrantChibi there’s no official numbers. But the Enterprise D barely ever did any exploring. The rest of Starfleet probably bumped that number up a few percentages though, and Voyager certainly did.
The Cardassians was a much-needed replacement of the Ferengi, who were supposed to be the "big bad" of the 24th century for Starfleet on TNG.
The spoonheads damn near ruined the franchise. They should’ve never been introduced.
The Galor-class gives the impression of a ship striving to give the most bang for buck, while lacking considerably in flexibility. Starships of nearly all types and factions rely on an EPS of one sort or another. They're basically large plasma generators and particle accelerators with all the various systems of the ship being powered and converting that energy to whatever end.
The beating heart of the system is usually the warp drive with plasma relays and conduits reaching throughout a ship like blood vessels in the body. And every junction in the ship's hull design requires this plasma to be regulated to and away from the structure itself. This further complicates the ship's design and power system.
The Galor is therefore designed to minimize junctions, requiring fewer resources to manage the ship's power. It's far longer than it is wide, allowing plasma streams to run the length of the ship uninterrupted. Most of the ship's power is devoted to the warp drive on one end and one prominent weapons' array on the other.
The design is not so much a testament to the stagnation of the Cardassians as it is to the necessities they face and the compromises that have to be made when faced with a particularly bad neighborhood of the galaxy.
People have the wrong impression because they don't understand how real world weapon systems or ships work. The Galor Class is the exact thing militaries strive for, robust, easy to build and maintain, very adaptable and refit ready. People get way too caught up in trading card stats and playing games. Starfleet ships are actually an example of what not do and is completely irrational from a military POV.
Also it looks nice, like a fish in a swarm.
War isn't really something you can phone in; the way the Federation handled itself in the Border Wars was a major misstep and a sign of just how the "Golden Age of Exploration" really dulled Starfleet's abilities and common sense.
Once the Cardassians made it clear they were spoiling for a full-scale fight (and committing a few war crimes along the way), Starfleet should have put on its game face and actually focused their attention on the guys who were shooting at them. This would have a better chance of bringing the war to a swifter end, and allowing more time both for relations to normalize and for the Cardassians to have a chance to rebuild. A stronger Cardassia might prove problematic on paper by the time of TNG, but I'd say a shorter war, fewer casualties, and a longer period of peaceful coexistance with the Federation decreases that risk - especially if a quick defeat energizes the Cardassian Dissident movement and Wolf 359 causes the Federation to rapidly modernize and rebuild as it did in our timeline.
Instead, the Federation, in the words of SF Debris, opted for the age-old strategy of "Kick my ass some more, please."
Agree wholeheartedly. The federation parking a small fleet of ships in orbit around cardassia prime after shattering their defenses would've sent a message to Cardassia that it needed to change Or Else.
to say nothing of it possibly liberating Bajor a good twenty or so years sooner.
Point is Cardassia is VERY statist in nature. So them being utterly humiliated would have them reevaluating what is best for The State and what is best at this point is to swallow thier pride and accept they got their asses handed to them for the sake of getting access to federation aid in rebuilding and potentially looking better on the galactic stage by taking the short term L so long term they'dh ave a more favorable position on the board.
If you are the Alpha Quadrant UN you can't just whack-a-mole every tin-pot dictatorship. You always have 47 conflicts cooking somewhere and have to carefully balance and mediate all aspects across all sectors.
That's the thing though.
The Cardassians *Were Not* spoiling for a full scale fight at all. Despite the Cardassian ego the Obsidian Order is an effective enough intelligence service to know if they're only getting to parity against an enemy's fleet of deep space science ships even when they're attacking them two and three on one, then a full scale war isn't going to end well for them.
There was no push deep into Federation space and the fact is that every time they went up against another major space faring power they were either spanked like with Starfleet or STOMPED like with the KDF.
The Cardassians wanted to harass Starfleet enough that the Federation would pull back from the border region altogether and cede those worlds to Cardassia both for resources and so they could be a bugger zone against the bigger and more powerful Federation. Since Starfleet isn't actually an aggressive expansionist organization their goal was always just to get the Cardassians to chill out and talk.
The Cardassians at that time were ruled by their military and militaries can only think of military solutions so peace or admitting to the Federation that they had food problems and resource shortages never entered the conversation as that would be admitting weakness. For that reason they kept creating problems along the border hoping that the Federation was either too cowardly to engage (false) or would get fed up and bail out (also false). But they also existed on the fact that the Federation never considered them anywhere close to an existential threat, so the Federation went on about it's business while the assets in the Cardassian theater dealt with the problems they were creating.
If the Federation had crushed the Cardassian military when they first annexed Bajor then helped rebuild them with Federation technology, maybe things would've been different. But that would require the Federation to behave fundamentally out of character.
@@markmarano913 I think it's through the fact that it wasn't Just a starfleet problem with complicity, It was a federation problem more widely. That's because the federation is not a militarily expansionist power and is actually technically pacifist in its attitude towards the universe, and tend to view relations between species in terms of cooperation and mutual benefit. It's idealism left it blind in some ways and the result being in later conflicts they were kind of cut off guard and underprepared. Plus Starfleet is not a military organization, technically despite having military capabilities, It's an expiration and peacekeeping organization. The result it's not completely geared towards warfare which leaves it at something of a disadvantage.
I think people forget the Federation is a bloc and not a nation-state. Internal politics probably don't allow the Federation to take quick strong decisive action against an inferior foe like the Cardiassians for a variety of reasons. The Federation is composed of hundreds of worlds that are sovereign nation-states (very similar to the EU)... many of whom are probably not very interested in a war or being part of an Empire. Starfleet is probably always trying to remind members, allies and prospective members that it is not ruthless military organization like the Klingon Defense Force or the Romulan Navy.
The power dynamic in Star Trek always bugged me, the "Great" empires surrounding the Federation (Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians) were all single planet derived empires that mostly looked down/subjugated others within its borders which would tie up military resources. While conversely the Federation was a collection of 150+ member states all working within a standardized organization like Starfleet.
Yes, obviously the militant races would be devoting far more of its resources to the military than the federation would, but even if the federation on a per capita base devoted like 1-2% towards its defense they would still dwarf the other empires in power since they have such an immensely stronger position without the dissent to tie down its forces. The federation should be able to lay down a fleet at the drop of a hat that others would have to orient its entire being for long periods of time to even think about matching.
I disagree, I say it's completely logical. If you take the Klingons as an example, they are a militant culture. They don't need as many people in non-military roles as other civilizations, so they can conscript a bigger percentage of their population. Everyone else just sends tribute or works for them. If you take the size of a warship's crew, it's really not that much. Probably a thousand, max. The Enterprise had a "crew" of the TNG/DS9 era was about 1000. But that included the families of Starfleet personnel. More than likely it's a few hundred. The size of a planet's population, in a world where resources are basically infinite, is probably in the high billions, maybe tens or hundreds. Even 1% of that is more than enough to have thousands of ships. If we were to take Earth's population today, 6 billion. Magically slap 500 people in a warship, we would have a fleet of 120,000 ships. With just 1% Imagine the Klingons, who probably have way, way more people in the military. It's entirely possible to have an empire built on a single planet, especially when these ships can just nuke a planet.
But need an economy to support that many
@@ryanw2744 Enterprise confuses things even more. Both the Vulcans and Andorians are said to be great empires rivalling the Klingons, yet we never really hear of their fleets again. The Vulcans at least seem to have retained some form of native fleet of formidable ships.
(Though I think logically Federation member worlds aren't obliged to assign their home fleets under Starfleet)
@@ffnbbq that would strengthen the concept that the Federation is insanely powerful if every individual retains their fleets as a sort of "National Guard" since it would allow them to augment Starfleet in extreme situations.
This was a really good one. Pieces speaking to conflicts taken place during "lost years" are fascinating.
That thumbnail with Picard's face superimposed onto a guy is so scary. Must have been a changeling operator in deep cover.
Re: Dorvan 5, it was originally a Federation colony, but in whatever treaty negotiations they had with Cardassia, it switched over to Cardassian hands. The inhabitants essentially agreed to be under Cardassian jurisdiction at the end of that episode (probably begrudgingly).
And Gul Evek had 3 sons, but 1 is still alive (in TNG, anyway) - "I don't want to lose the last one"
Thank you for the maps.. this a big help..
Must take time to find back stories. Most interesting. Thanks for the intel.
man i love to see the cardassians again on screen to see how they are doing after the dominion wars and in the early 25 century
They probably joined the Federation, just as Eddington predicted.
Of course, there's one Cardassian we'd all love to see again.
I would love if he was the leader of cardassia and he and Dr basher have lunch once a month 😂
Wasn’t there Cardassian starfleet officers in the Disco future?
@@reyonXIII Gul dukat, i know, hes a goodie
I think the Federation needs a dedicated Federation Navy, separate from Starfleet, which should remain an exploration/diplomacy-focused organization. More tactically-minded officers like Jellico could be transferred there. That way Starfleet can keep its values while having an actual, full military as backup when things do go south.
I think what happened in Picard s1 was leading up to that, with that dedicated battle fleet of lookalike ships. They made a ton of a combat-focused ship class, maybe as an experiment towards creating a dedicated combat force, so that when needed they could be used to take the brunt of battle, instead of starfleet always being stuck with it.
@@Timeward76That was actually a production screw up. The producers had left the decision for that big VFX scene until the last minute, which had the VFX teams scrambling to make the one ship model they had time to make and render the scene in a few weeks. The production team didn't even bother to check how "Zheng He" was pronounced.
The artist who made the model disavowed it and instead used the STO model in season 2 when he was made VFX supervisor. The new production team also made it clear the One Ship Fleet was a mistake that was not going to be repeated again, hence all of those STO ships in the season 2-3.
The thing is that that's a very resource intensive solution for a problem that they don't really see as a problem. The Federation has Starfleet which can serve as a military fleet in times of war, but aren't just sitting around in spacedock in peace time. The requirements for an exploration vessel and a heavy ship of the line are very similar. What would likely happen is that in a time of war if the Federation was being pressed the military officers would then look at the exploration fleets and say "Why isn't that pretty Odyssey class in the fight?" There'd also then be questions of "Why are we sending out all of these under-equipped exploration vessels into deep space just to find more problems for us to fight". It would breed resentment between the services rather than making either's job that much easier. Also the optics would get muddy. Other powers would look at Starfleet as the scout fleet while the Navy is the conquest fleet. The Carrot and the Stick if you will.
Starfleet's values have never precluded Self Defense and Starfleet has always been able to stand up to any military they've come across where they have anywhere close to technological parity. Often when Starfleet is against a superior foe like the Borg or the Dominion it's been their science and engineering ability as opposed to their tactical skill that carries the day.
Member planets and/or their empires have their own navies (the Andorian Imperial Guard being an uber example) in the Federation, and they're generally the ones responsible for border protection and internal policing. It was the weakness and decadence of Earth that by the time of DS9/VOY, Earth didn't have its own navy and just assumed Starfleet would act as their navy in times of distress, bc obviously a core founding world of the Federation would naturally get Federation ships, right? Combine that with absolutely neglected to nonexistent space and ground defenses from centuries of peace, and its no surprise the Breen curbstomped Earth during their raiding action. Whereas look at how much hell the grand alliance fleet faced just trying to get trough even the outer ring of planets and defenses of the Cardassian Union.
A Federation Navy probably wouldn't work, since it'd devolve into extreme squabbling and infighting right away, especially over vulnerable planets demanding extra fleets, and safer, richer planets spurning their contributions they're supposed to make.. Look at how much of a mess it is to get NATO to do anything coordinated in our time. Multiply that problem by a thousand, thousand times.
DARN CARDIES! I keep a necklace of neckbone's I collected in the war.
Enjoy this, hopefully other conflicts could be laid out in similar videos; Romulans, Klingons, etc!
Great video - this is by far the most interesting and least-discussed area of starfleet wartime lore, probably because there is so little information on it and we never got a full rundown of the conflict - but you've collected a ton of info here, excellent work.
Right off the bat, a Federation Vessel being fired upon by a Cardassian Vessel in bright space.
The Cardassians WERE a formidable adversary. After the Dominion War there wasn't much left. Ironic because of the terrible things they inflicted on Bajor came back in spades.
Bajor deserved it
They were so formidable, it was called the _Dominion_ War, not 2nd Cardassian War.
They were the junior partners in their own territory.
@@christopherg2347 You realize that the Cardassian Empire also just came out of a civil war (or coup, it's not that clear). And a war with the Klingons, that went so badly the Federation had to step in, which obviously would have damaged it far more. The Dominion gave them a huge buff, but even then they played a major role.
@@crappyatlife Based and Cardassian pilled
@@nicholasgutierrez9940 The Klingons did that much damage with 1/3 of their Fleet and with massive logistics issues.
While _also_ fighting the Federation.
Ah yes, the almost never mentioned border war between the Federation and Cardassia. We can only assume that the Federation rated them as a threat so insignificant that they did not commit much effort into the case - until it was almost too late. Id say that even in the later TNG era, the Federation could have easily steamrolled Cardassia, should the really had wanted to. But they gave them too much freedom and in the end they were able to catch up and eventually became the Dominions puppet, which cost them both (Federation and Cardassia) dearly.
starfleet thought the Cardassians wouldn't dare attacking a much larger and more powerful organization and so never really invested that much into defense in that area. they were caught by surprise when the Cardies invaded and managed to conquer several colonies . they kidnapped many civilians from those planets and that forced the Federation to make concessions in exchange for a ceasefire and getting back the hostages , and the cardassians were allowed to keep some of the territories they captured
Federation colonies, especially those on the frontier always seem to be virtually undefended. So it should not have been that much of a surprise that even a minor power like Cadassia could cause so much havok in the Federations backyard. All they need was to send one ship to a colony, unload a platoon of ground troops and they easily had the planet under control. And they now had lots of valuable hostages to trade. And as we saw in the case with O'Brien - the Cardassians were not above executing their hostages should the federation move in and try to retake the planet.
I always viewed it Star Trek's equivalent of the Korean war, a limited regional conflict with wider implications but it wasn't a threat to the federations existence but it was a major security concern that had to be dealt with.
Thanks for all your wonderful Star Trek videos :)
Always a good Star Trek video, keep it up.
Tal Shiar this, Tal Shiar that, nobody asks what's The Obsidian Order up to. But yeah, Cardassians are one of my favourite factions and villains.
The Obsidian Order has been utterly destroyed, mostly with Enabrain Tain dying.
They’re literally the lamest thing in the franchise.
Um, O'Brien was not a skill Engineer during the war. He specifically mentions at one point during DS9 that he didn't know the difference between (I believe it was) a replicator from a transporter, but at the last second he was able to beam everyone out of the situation he was in. This was DURING THE WAR.
🎶I fought war in a Setlik street, where the Starfleet drums did beat, the bloody cardie feet, they walked all over us… 🎶
🎶 … And every single night, when the Cap’n would beam back tight, he’d invite the officers out to sing this chorus… 🎶
@@slavsquatsuperstar Come out ye damn spoonheads, come out and fight us effin feds, show your wives how you won medals back on Bajor.
A ring ding diddly i de do ring ding diddly i o
Maxwell, Jellico and O'Brien are right about their opinions on Cardies. 🖖🏻
not all spoonheads are bad
@@NitpickingNerdwrong.
If Starfleet committed the Galaxy Class to the conflict the war might have ended in very short order with Cardassia facing possible occupation by peacekeepers. All of Cardassia under a DMZ and saving a lot of grief later on...
There were only a handful of Galaxy Class ships available in the early 2360s and it is incredibly foolish to commit them in this type of conflict. *The potential loss of a single Galaxy Class far outweighs any advantage conferred.* A few ships are not shifting the balance. War isn't about trading card stats: It is about logistics, doctrine and planning. Why would the Cardassians bother engaging a single Galaxy Class when they can simply attack unarmed colonies or older ships? The entire war was characterized by hit-and-run attacks, and the Cardassians picking and choosing their battles. What are three ships going to change when both sides have fleets of many hundreds available? A Galaxy Class is not invincible. It just means the Cardassians counter with three Galor Type 3s instead of two.
Im guessing you missed the Galaxies getting casually blown up in DS9 in the later phases of the war. And no, those weren't "just" Dominion or Breen ships.
@@crownprincesebastianjohano7069 Six Galaxy Class Starships at the time and just enough it had the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, and even the Borg paying attention more ways than one. The Galaxy could give it just as she could receive it. If a Galaxy is flanked by to Nebula Class cruisers I be checking whether I wanted to live for another day very carefully.
Just as the Sovereigns were feared by the Dominion, the Galaxy Class was paid attention to by the powers at the time. Deploy strategically and the war could have been shortened.
@@IconOfSin24148 The Galaxy X and the Galaxy Wings held their own. By then the Sovereign Class had the Dominion looking over their shoulders.
Or loose it
Thank you. I literally needed this clear clarification. Good job!
Thank you rick! You gave me more entertainment and a lot more to think about and imagine than any of the new trek. I could only imagine how frustrated Ron Moore was on tng maybe possibly shooting an idea to do a spin off or a mini series regarding the border wars.
O'Brien was not an engineer or specialist in transporters at the time of Setlik III. He was the tactical officer of the Rutledge. He states in an episode (I believe DS9 where Jake's interning for O'Brien) that he didn't know squat about transporters and scored poorly on his aptitude exam. He explains he had a limited time to fix the transporter and managed to get it to work seconds before the enemies overran their position.
When you said Paradigm Shift I automatically thought of Stellaris, anyone else play Stellaris?
I do, I have my own custom race with an extensive head cannon because I'm a super cool guy.
Thanks for this video. It's such an interesting area of the lore, but so little is know unless you delve deeper.
Correction: O'Brien was not an engineer or a transporter specialist when the cardasians attacked at first. He says this himself in a voice line that basically says he had no idea about transporters and 4 minutes to get his team out, and he managed to fix the transporter in 3 minutes and 50 seconds and after that he was promoted to tactical officer on the Rutledge - or something to that extent
Because he was a space wizard from space Hogwarts.
Thank you for this informative video. This helps piece together the whole dilemma between there apparently having been a Federation - Cardassian conflict despite there not being much direct explanation about it.
God be with you out there, everybody. ✝️ :)
Cardassian Citizens on the wrong side of the border after the peace treaty weren't forced to leave, and neither were the Federation citizens in the end. That's what that whole TNG episode was about (where Wesley joins the traveler).
That was part of what was so bad about the treaty, the Cardassians new the Federation would welcome cardassian citizens in their territory as a measure to try to assimilate them culturally. This would lead to them telling their family and other cardassians how good the Federation was to them, contrary to the cardassians attacking Federation citizens who remained on their colonies. It was also a major point from the DS9 Maquis arc. I believe Cmd. Cal Hudson made the point directly
I love love LOVE the use of STO in your videos lol, it makes me so happy
I always believed that the only reason the Cardassians were able to go toe-to-toe with the Federation was because the Federation had to commit so many ships and troops to the Romulan neutral zone. This meant they couldn't bring their full might to bare and forced them to fight with one hand tied behind their back
I'd love a show or movie set in this time period.
the guy in the thumbnail is the starfleet equivalent of the recent incident with a US Navy commander having a photo op with his rifle scope attached backwards.
I don't know where people are getting the idea the Cardassian ships were just multiple levels of tech behind the Federation, or that the Union was way behind. They were only mildly behind, and that in specific sectors more than across the board - much of Starfleet's edge was just as much in "human" elements as much as machinery, which is of course what matters.
PLENTY of Cardassian ships blew up Federation ships and without having to dogpile on them 3-to-1. No, the Dominion didn't "magically" make their ships just "better" after they arrived. Union ships used Union weapons still all to the end, you couldn't just rip off a Dominion polaron beam and attach it to a Galor. And even when the Cardassian military finally defected, they had no problem destroying Dominion ships (the "best") in battle.
Not either sure where people are insinuating it'd have been no problem if the Federation had widened the sorta war with the Union into a full scale conflict. Again, look at the struggles the COMBINED fleet of the greatest Sector powers had in just breaching the outer ring of Cardassian core space - if the absolute buttload of powerful spaceborne assets didn't destroy you, the interleaving fields of fire from multiple fleet attack angles and reinforcing planets would. And those were all in place BEFORE the Dominion ever entered the Sector. If the Cardies were THAT easily able to be pushed over, there would have BEEN no Cardassian Union, and the Tholians and Breen would have been able to swallow them whole and spit them out centuries ago. Them being able to survive against the also technologically greater and more callous powers of the Tholians and Breens PLUS being able to hold the Klingons at bay doesn't point to some ramshackle about to collapse society.
Noting the location of Bajor and it's proximity to Cardassia Prime I can understand their desire to conquer it and to keep the Federation out.
Crew dossier material found in the game “Star Trek Starship Creator: Warp 2,” but not in other Star Trek-related sources, states that Captain Jellico lost two ships in heavy fighting during the Cardassian War while he was commanding them, with significant loss of life. This suggests that Captain Jellico is somewhat antisocial, confrontational, and sometimes unsure of himself not because he is a bad person, but because he has repressed PTSD. It also suggests that Captain Jellico may not always have had the negative personality traits we see in “The Ensigns of Command.” There is always the problem that if a warfighter or other person has significant PTSD, they cannot be treated unless they admit to themselves the existence of the affliction and unless they resolutely commit to addressing the problems. This is totally irrespective of the technology level available for medical and therapeutic approaches. The same reality can be seen with regard to the character Ernesto Zabaleta from Mass Effect.
As always excellent work! I look forward to every one of your videos!
This video is very interesting, but I would have liked some mention of the personal conflict of Spock and his diplomat father Sarek over the Cardassian-Federation War. I believe this Spock-Sarek conflict was mentioned in the TNG episode "Sarek".
It seemed like the real reason the Federation didn't just crush the Cardassians was more political than military.
We see in TNG and DS9 how good the Cardassians are at manipulation and politics. The Obsidian Order has extensive intelligence on everything. The Central Command works often with other factions and races to undermine their enemies.
There are also plenty of opportunistic factions who will exploit any conflict to their own advantage. You have Nausicaan and Breen Pirates. Ferengi arms dealers. The Orion Syndicate. Not to mention the Romulans, who are always trying to hurt the Federation any chance they get.
The Federation knows they can defeat the Cardassians easily but they were far more concerned with the chaos that would erupt if they went through with it. The Cardassians could buy better weapons from the Ferengi. The Breen and Orions will raid colonies for slaves. The Romulans might secretly supply the Cardassians like they did with the Duras. Then what is supposed to be a quick war turns into chaos and dozens of systems get sucked into the conflict.
DS9 also revealed that the Federation had an unsurpassed intelligence agency that had its hands in the Tal'Shiar. It would not be unreasonable to assume Section 31 took a look at the Cardassians and decided they weren't a serious threat, and not worth fighting with.
There’s also the fact that they’d have to basically occupy a large swath of Cardassian territory if they were to steamroll them, along with relocating refugees and dumping a bunch of resources into the region to help rebuild. By keeping the borders essentially the same as they were before the conflict, the Federation didn’t have to provide any aid with reconstruction after the war. Also, stamping out a decently-sized regional power like the Cardassian Union is basically just asking those criminal elements to move in and start exploiting the region. With their vast territory and resources, the Federation essentially recovered before the proverbial ink dried on the treaty’s paper. Meanwhile, if they hadn’t signed on with the Dominion and even if they hadn’t gone to war with the Klingons, the effects that the war had on Cardassia would have reverberated for decades.
What is weird for me, they have 4 habitable planets in their home system.
I played with a modded version of Birth of the Federation that gave the Cardassians four habitable planets and oh boy, your first 25 turns with this modded savegame are only preventing a famine and ressource collaps, but oh boy, when you were successfull you would dominate the rest of the game so easily.
I always maintain that a ceasefire had been going on for a few years by the time TNG started. I just can't believe that there was any kind of official war going on during early TNG. It doesn't fit with the tone at all.
My guess is that the Cardassians camped on stations and planets to force the Federation into ground combat where its more powerful ships wouldn't have the advantage. It's the only way the struggles in that war that O'Brien and Maxwell describe make sense when the warship the Enterprise fights in the Wounded seems a lot weaker. This kind of conflict also fits with the sort of war stories they tell in that episode. Plus, I think the writers of The Wounded wanted the Federation-Cardassian war to be kind of like Vietnam.
However, I must disagree with the idea that the Cardassians had no friends and thus saw the Federation as another enemy. Considering Quark's bar dates to Deep Space Nine's last years under Cardassian rule, the Ferengi were probably allies of the Cardassians.
I’ve always believed the federation needed a dedicated military wing who’s mandate is to protect federation assets, be that escorting ships through dangerous space or smacking down uppity species once the proverbial trigger is pulled and war is declared.
Having specialised training, dedicated marines (see MACO’s) combat focused ship refits with dedicated research and development to allow them to be the Federations strong right arm in counterpoint to section 31’s dagger in the dark.
This wouldn’t ever happen, however to me it would make sense considering the frankly stupid amount of existential threats the federation faces and the farcical number of ships, men and materiel that’s been lost due to the stupidity of federation command.
Yeah a defence force also trained in ground war.
another great production Rick - keep up the great work
Using star trek online footage love it
Those Kim class cardashian vessels were made entirely with plastic, the Chloe and Courtney class were not very dependable either
But they were very sturdily built in certain areas...
Thanks to DS9, the Bajorans and Cardassians are probably the most fleshed out species on Star Trek besides Humans, Vulcans, and Klingons. I really wish the Cardassians were featured more in the shows and movies.
Love the ominous organ music. :)
Seeing that map makes me sad.
I still imagine what the Firangi would have been like, if they where the heart of a Federation of their own. Unifying their section of space in the same way Humans had, just with different methods for the same peaceful ideals. That map of smaller nations would have made up said 'consortium,' which is why it makes me a bit sad, because I can see each one of those nations forming some sort of cog in a bigger whole.
Its actually terrifying to think of the level of passivity needed throughout history to avoid the Prime timeline from just going "F it we tried being good" and goind Confederation Of Earth development of ships like the World Razer and just going "Qu'nos you take that part of the Cardy union territory we'll take this part and they will learn to be part of our respective unions or we'll dump them on some M class planets with stone age agriculture tools"
Or take that mindset with the Breen, Tholians, Orions etc, hell they could have taken over the Dominion cloning and reprogrammed the jem'hadar or Vorta to be "reserve" troops with a in built enjoyment of mining ores for ships or aggriculture in peace time.
This is a amazing video on Star trek is there a video on the wars with the Borg and if not will there be one because I would like to see it anyway keep up the amazing work
A weaker power can go toe-to-toe with a larger and more powerful adversary… the weaker party can win if they hold out longer…are willing to do far worse deeds than the larger and more “enlightened”power. As with all large powers… as they grow bigger, wealthier and their standard of living keeps rising… the society in general becomes detached from the brutalities that are required to defeat an enemy. We just saw that happen in Afghanistan.
Someone gets it. I read most of the comments and two things stick out: 1) If the common view were true, they would simply be facts, and 2) The vast majority of people have zero idea how wars are fought and think the end all be all of conflict are trading card stats. People completely miss the point of the Border Wars and why the Cardassians are a threat.
The ST universe is one realization about Dark Forest theory away from being a discount 40k universe.
I've always had a certain sympathy and fondness for the spoon-heads; they're a fine example of what happens when a people find themselves in extremis and an unfortunate culture of 'needs must, and boy do we have needs' allows their worst elements to lead. Cardassians in/of themselves seem to actually be pretty decent people but a century or two of nasty circumstances molded them into a real monster.
Great job on this. Your videos are always top notch.
Just curious what music did you use? At one point I sort of swore I heard music from The Matrix Reloaded. I could be wrong but that's what it sounded like to me.
Thank you, brilliant video.
Rick, you are awesome as always.
I would imagine that these "Border Wars", especially the battle of Setlik 3, with its use of ground forces since the Xindi conflicts back in the 2200's, was what influenced Star Fleet to reintroduce the M.A.C.O.s back into service. Before thne they werehardly utlized at all.
Dude you are my go to LIVE LONG AND PROSPER ,WE HAVE THE POWER. 🤘😆🤘
Say whatever, I love the looks of the Galor class
Nothing is more jarring when looking at a star map and hearing "to the north"
Maybe call it Galactic north or something.
You wouldn't want the UFP as a neighbour unless you wanted to join. They tend to grab a lot of everything and are very nosy.
Why didn't *the Klingons join in on the Border Wars,* even unilaterally?
The Federation were officially their Allies, so they actually had a legitimate excuse to do so.
And if they did join to officially support their Federation treaty partners, it would improve Klingon/Federation relations - important to the then Chancellor.
It would also make the Klingon Empire appear more formidable to other powers, due to the impression that if you war with them, then you also war with Starfleet.
And best of all, it would be a good war....a *_Glorious War_* for the Klingon Empire.
They would take much territory that boarders their own and fight against a foe that could put up a decent enough fight to earn glory & honour but wasn't at risk of defeating the Empire.
And by fighting side by side with the Federation it would greatly reduce tensions between both powers, and the Chancellor knew that a Federation/Klingon war could be catastrophic for the Empire.
Plus he apparently respected Starfleet honour.
A occasional war is good for Klingon stability, their hotheads either get culled or tempered, and it provides opportunities to get rid of troublesome individuals like Duras by arranging for them to die in battle.
Starfleet just assigns troublemakers to Oberths and lets nature take its course.
*Rick..* video _what if?_ idea.
What if what I suggested occurs in an alternate timeline that splits right there.
The Klingons join in a co-biligerence with the Federation, and its agreed by both that they will steamroll the Cardassians and force an unconditional surrender.
*Chancellor K'mpec:* "I looked at your Earth history with WW2 and the surrender of Germany and Japan. And how afterwards they became staunch members of the winning side's alliance.
Together, we can remake the Cardassians to be model Galactic citizens (🤞)."
[That'll get the Humans onboard]
The agreement is the Federation gets Bajor, and they both administer Cardassia together (or some other final split, but the Klingons know that the Federation liberating the Bajorans is a tempting offer).
The Federation plays good cop to the Klingons bad cop in the war.
So Cardassians flock to surrender to Starfleet forces.... like how in WW2, Germans fled to surrender to the approaching Americans and British rather than the Soviets.
And what was formerly the Cardassian Union becomes just another part of the Klingon/Federation border.
But one where Starfleet personnel are regularly invited by the Klingons to join them in drinking and songs about their great battles fighting side by side as brother (and sister) Warriors, not as an iron curtain between both victors.
Never forget Setlick III
My main question is where was Garak during all this? 😊
Tailoring as usual...most spys have a day job like the Russian sleeper agents they keep finding.
Who cares?
The universe ends on Tuesday but for the life of me I can’t remember which day of the week the universe began on, best guess probably on a Thursday
For Cardassia it was a war, for the Federation, it was a Tuesday.
The British accent is great for this type of subject. Makes it sound kind of like an old WW2 documentary. Lol.
I love how they call them spoon heads
Hope one day we see what happend at the time from the end of star trek 6 to the beginning of tng
Brilliant 👍
My favorite culture to role-play in Stellaris Star Trek New Civilizations total conversion mod
Thx, Rick!
THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!!
The Cardassians assuming the UFP was just another aggressor is another example of "claiming the opposition is doing what yourselves are actually doing" as Apple, Samsung and car manufacturers have done
Ah yes, the good old USS Rutledge. Still active in 2409 with to one of my captains commanding her.
The Cardassian govt didn't really bother to understand the Federation, or they were just to stubborn to adapt their own attitude. If they had, early on, they could have gotten far more benefits from playing nice and getting trade and even assistance from the Federation in order to provide vital resources, especially food.
At that time, the Federation was in its Golden Age, and may have been willing to try and play the diplomacy game of hoping to over time influence Cardassia, or at least keep them civil.
Much like with Federation/Klingon relations.
Peace and Trade were the Federations main goals.
It's a pity for the Cardassian people they didn't make meaningful contact with the Federation before they "adopted" a authoritarian govt, as the Federation could have helped them not only with resources, but with defence against the other powers that were threatening Cardassia. Powers that were also an issue for the Federation.
Prehaps in the Kelvin timeline Starfleet made contact with them much sooner, before they invaded Bajor and before they became a xenophobic hostile power?
The Federation's attitude to the Cardassians reminds me of the West's current engagement with Russia...... doing a half assed job which will leave them coming back to bite us hard later.
There is so much good material here for a show but I don't think Secret Hideout would do it right.
You could say it was a "Special Federation Operation"
"Bloody Hell, Julian!"
This war is really an example of the Federation being too naive and pacifistic. After so many decades of peace, the Federation Council became complacent, too aloof, clinging too tightly to their utopian ideals. No, they shouldn't have invaded Cardassia or anything ridiculous like that, but a firm response was very clearly required. The peace treaty had some good parts (Bajor becoming free being a highlight, even though it took a few years for the Cardassians to finally comply), but redrawing the border was a disaster. Setting aside the blatantly immoral act of forced relocation of entire colonies, it also led inevitably to conflict in the DMZ that neither the Federation nor Cardassians could stop.
That led to the Maquis, who quite merrily humiliated the Cardassians repeatedly. Connect the dots and you end up with the Dominion War. That conflict was likely inevitable no matter what happened, but preceding events gave the Dominion a crucial foothold and a huge advantage.
On the plus side, the Federation learned from their mistakes. The Dominion War began at a time and place of their choosing. More, despite presumably having solved the problem of Dominion weapons penetrating Federation shields some time prior, they deliberately waited for the war to begin before Starfleet started using these new shield calibrations. That led to some Starfleet ships on the border being easily destroyed before the war started, but when it started, it gave the Federation a considerable short-term advantage. Cold-blooded, but clearly necessary.
TL;DR: peace at any cost does not grant peace.
I always feel Starfleet of this time is to “peaceful”. I know it’s not a military branch but how could UFP or Starfleet so unwilling commit a powerful military action when people under attack!? To me UFP seems willing use life of its citizens and territory exchange for “peace”. They spend to much time on WW3 forget about WW2? Starfleet has become so arrogant that always thinks can persuade the other party, to the point where he not only has a blunt knife in his hand, but also often refuses to use it even in self protect.
A mistake need Borg and Q help to make then realize. Imagine when in Dominon War the best ship Stsrfleet can put in mass production is Excelsior
It always annoyed me that the Federation gave up numerous planets thus leading to the formation of the Marquis instead of sending 50 odd ships and forcing Cardassia to their knees.
hence why I call it the neville chamberlain era
Cardassia had the upper hand at the end of this war… the peace at all costs Federation gave away colony after colony world to appease the Cardies. Leave it to the Federation to show weakness.
Cardassians gave up their own territories and all of Bajor, which had invaluable strategic importance
@@leonardotavaresdardenne9955 by the time of the “trading of territory” the Cardies had sucked Bajor dry of the resources it wanted. It was of zero strategic value at that point in time. Terok Nor was a mining processing station and was not a heavily armed space station it was later modified to become under the Federation. Bajor only became significant once the wormhole appeared… and that was well after the trading of territories treaty occurred.