While I would recommend watching Babylon 5 based on it being a fantastic series; I respect knowing your limitations on time and energy. The random tidbits that Drach throws into his videos showing his knowledge and enjoyment of things like Star Trek, Babylon 5 and WH40k are little nuggets of extra fun to spice up the naval history knowledge. Plus it allows him time to do things like collaborate with this channel which I had never heard of but now will watch for some Star Trek content. Thoroughly enjoyed the series of videos and hope it happens again.
My question on the crew size of a Bird of Prey took a tangent I wasn’t expecting, but damn! Drach’s theory about the Klingons keeping spare birds around and diving up the crew to fill out the spare hulls and meet certain mission types suits the Klingon mentality like a glove.
As another complication on the definition of what is a frigate, from post-WWII to 1975, the US Navy used the term frigate as a classification for ships larger than destroyers but smaller than the WWII cruisers remaining in the fleet. Confusingly, the hull classification symbol for these pre-1975 frigates was DLG (DLGN for nuclear powered ones.) Post-1975 these were mostly reclassified as cruisers (either CG or CGN), although a few of the smaller classes were reclassified as destroyers (DDG), and the ships that were classified as Destroyer Escort/Ocean Escort (DE/DEG) were reclassed as what the USN now considers to be a frigate (FF/FFG).
It would be interesting to see Drach do a video on different classes of ship and their sci-fi counterparts, including ST, SW, 40k, and whatever else. Still grounded in naval history but also branching out a bit. Maybe how real ship classes, and their changes over time, influence sci-fi ships.
With regard to the comparison between the Imperial and Imperial II class Star Destroyers and the Mon Calamari Star Cruisers, the Mon Cal ships are certainly smaller, more lightly armed and armored, and carried fewer fighters. They favored ion cannon batteries to turbolasers. Most of the Mon Cals actually had more ion cannons but significantly fewer turbolasers than their Imperial counterparts. Where the Mon Cals definitively outclass the Star Destroyers was in their shields and the quality of their fighters. The Mon Cal shields were considered to be stronger than Imperial systems and they had multiple, redundant shield generators and projector systems. They carried fewer fighters, but their fighters were nearly universally better armed, better armored, more versatile, and above all carried shields and hyperdrives. The fighters used the Mon Cal cruisers as bases of operations, refuel, rearming, and repair points, but were not tied to them. And Rebel fighters could, very often, outlast and almost always outgunned their Imperial opponents.
Another great video! Thank you! I always considered the Interprid Class as an odd duck. In my mind they resemble the large heavy destroyers the French were fond of in the late 1930s. Like the outstanding Le Fantasque and Mogador Classes that carried near cruiser sized guns (5.5 inch) and had extreme speeds of up to 45 knots. The Mogador Class *carried 8(!) 5.5 inch guns* in four twin armored turrets. At 137 meters in length they were in the realm of light cruisers but with a more flexible mission set. They vastly out-gunned any other destroyer class and were built to counter Italian fast light cruisers, and had the range for both patrol, convoy duty, but the arms to conduct commerce raiding, raids against enemy ports, attacking lone cruisers and as both the torpedo destroyer and ersatz light cruiser role in fleet actions. While it is true that Frigates in the post-War period are filling that multi-role billet, a ship like the Fantasque, while capable of being multi-role, is first and foremost an offensive weapon. So while the Intrepid is built for deep exploration and may fill the Frigate size, it seems quite designed as having extreme armament for its size. With its speed it is ideal for the long-range mission profile of Heavy Destroyers that can work in packs of 3-5 deep in enemy territory attacking convoys, heavier targets of opportunity and raiding. Heavy enough weapons to attack even heavy cruisers (and not suffer 50% losses like the B'Rel) and fast enough to escape any unfavorable situation.* Whereas it is true that we do not see Intrepids in squadrons like we do Galor Class Heavy Destroyers, that do operate as packs to destroy individual heavier targets (like the Nebula Class USS Honshu), I think that is only because they aren't built in numbers yet. We only ever see two. They SHOULD be used as Heavy Destroyers in war and as Destroyer Squadron flag ships. And one has to imagine that the return of Voyager is an endorsement to build many more. *If people have played the old, classic Star Trek Game "Birth of the Federation," using fast Heavy Destroyers in squadrons of five to seven to raid deep into enemy territory was the best tactic to whittle away an enemy factions resources and numbers. If one gets to Tech level 10, the Defiant Class becomes available and putting them in Wolf Packs and letting them ravage the enemy rear with system raids, Outpost destruction, convoy raiding and destroying small groups of heavy ships is a game winning tactic.
I just wanted to leave a comment and say that I have loved this series! I was introduced to your channel through this series and have thoroughly enjoyed the rest of your content :) I have to say though, this has been my favourite so far, I'm a big fan of longform content of people talking about something they're passionate about, so this "podcast" style of content where you're just talking about trek stuff was very pleasant to listen to, would be very excited to see more like this, be it solo, with Drachinifel, or with other guests! Keep up the great work :)
Well about Quantum Torpedoes ... the Dominion ships certainly had then and so did the Cardassians (Dreadnought), as the mechanics are barely explained on screen and they make no mention of subspace they are just more powerful versions of photon torpedoes for practical effects. Tricobalt devices on the other hand ... its skirting because it was only in Insurrection that subspace weapons had been banned but well, they could disrupt or create rifts in subspace but apparently werent considered subspace weapons because reasons. Of course there is the question why Voyager was even carrying then as they werent standard, the show never explained it either despite raising the question, it would kinda like the captain of a submarine just loading ASTORs for a search and rescue mission.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Well timeline is very "iffy" since in order for Dreadnought to have Quantum torpedoes that mean Cardassians had then in 2370 but the Dominion War was 2373-2375 and the Federation only started deploying Quantum torpedoes in 2371 starting with Defiant, in theory its possible I suppose since Quantum torpedoes appear to require launch tubes that differ from standard (Enterprise-E for example were Quantum torpedoes only fired from a specific tube) and its possible Galors simply couldnt carry then but then again, we had fighters firing Quantum torpedoes written in the script so ... Inconsistencies are something expected, also I call BS on Dreadnought but on the fact its a self-guided missile, its expected to crash into the target and then detonate, having Quantum torpedoes that at the time were a brand new more powerful torpedo in the Alpha Quadrant it would be a waste and no way in hell they could had gotten then from the Dominion at that time. As for the Dominion, well ... lets just say DS9 is a headache for actual technical details, I looked at Memory Alpha and neither the Fighter, Cruiser or Battleship are not mentioned to have Quantum torpedoes (just "torpedoes)" but their FX is the same as Quantum, personally I wouldn't go with Poloron since its mentioned as a energy type (and yes, I am aware what photons are) but I will agree that they never actually mentioned what type of torpedoes they are and the FX could simply be they going for a similar affect and nothing more.
On the one hand, I would dread serving under a hypothetical Captain Drachinifel because I know the working conditions would be dreadful. On the other hand, I'd be elated because I'd be getting showered in medals, commendations, and promotions, so maybe I might get promoted to command and I can have one of the few quarters that hasn't been converted into a phaser array or torpedo launcher.
On Battle Carriers in SF: Pure fleet carriers get trashed at close range by any gun-centric ship. If the setting's FTL or cloaking devices allow this to happen you can't have pure carriers as major combatants. A battle carrier can't fight another battleship, but it can stand up to a surprise decloaking or jumping cruiser or two. I first encountered this argument in the BSG context, but because of cloaking devices it also applies to Star Trek. It may be that such settings shouldn't have carriers at all, but if they do have carriers they should be hybrids. But against a Jeune Ecole adversary like the Klingons a battlecarrier doesn't have to concern itself with surprise short range engagements with battleships, but it does have to worry about surprise short range engagements with cruisers, frigates, and destroyers that half a battleship can handle. On the other hand what I really expect to see in Star Trek are tenders not carriers because Trek FTL works at the fighter scale. There should be a hangar to do repairs, but mostly you carry some industrial replicators at least big enough to manufacture torpedoes or fuel cannisters, a lot of feed stock, and a bunch of heavy freight transporters to reload your fighter swarm, and rec facilities better than a fighter. What Starfleet calls exploration cruisers ought to have all of this except maybe the heavy freight transporters as a natural part of their exploration role.
I would love to hear Drach and you talk about Star Wars. Old EU preferred of course. I've never been a big fan of Star Trek( outside of DS9 and Enterprise) but your guys tactic here of parallels to real Naval History has been the most engaging entry into the lore I've encountered. Between this and Depths of DS9 I'm really wanting to get into Trek.
From that single titbit, I assume he lacks SW nerdknowledge to talk about it. Even that treky stuff is streached a lot at times to fit his comparations. :)
I would argue that using fighters in space combat a la DS9 was possibly a secondary role especially for the Federation. The biggest role would be aerial fire support on a planet surface and going places where a larger starship may not fit, such as asteroid belts. There have been plenty of cases of atmospheric conditions or intense space combat preventing a Starship from supporting away teams or ground units. Having something like a Peregrine deliver heavy phaser or microtorpedo fire could be useful.
I'll just note that where "frigates" are concerned, Star Fleet Battles called small ships frigates (below destroyers) and they were "first" in doing this. FASA Starship Combat Simulator called LARGE ships (above cruisers) frigates, essentially modelling the USS Constitution in the Revolutionary war. It was interesting to compare the Intrepid (which did have aspiration of long term missions) with the Nova (also stranded but which did NOT have that ability). The Nova is more like the tiny frigate type, or I guess corvette might be more appropriate. I guess I had somewhat more sympathy for that Nova, and I'm not sure they really knew they were sentient till it was too late (and I expect Voyager did probably eat animals and plants somewhere along their journey). They didn't want the rest of the show to have 2 ships, but I think had they handled that better, they should have and it would have come in handy I'm sure.
You can very easily operate for months, to years on end, on 12 on, 12 off, which in reality is about 14 hrs on, and for those that are skilled and higher ranking, in the enlisted, turns into 16-18 hrs on…I did that we deployed every year for 6-7 months, 7 days a week, you might get a day off in that time. Then back in the states, nothing but training. Working 6 days a week, plus things like duty, and going all over the US mainly to shorty deserts here, for 2-6 weeks, or more.
This is indeed another interesting Q&A. In regard to my own thoughts on it: A battlecarrier makes more sense in space than on the water. Though I have some bias due to me being partial to the Venator for Star Wars movie capital ship. The idea of crew rotation and being able to turn a single 36 crewed BoP into six 6 crewed + reservists BoP is quite the clever idea. The notion of crew shifts is honestly not brought up that often in Trek, I can only recall it a handful of times.
If you want an example of expedient designs standing in for the one you want (but not necessarily weapons or naval), I could point to the US Tank Destroyers development. What the TD Branch's brass wanted eventually showed up as the M18. Basically every design before that (including the M10 GMC) were expedient/interim designs. The M3 halftrack with 75mm guns? Expedient design. I like to think that Quantum Torpedoes are actually larger than the standard photon torpedoes. Hence why they have "photon torpedo launchers" and "quantum torpedo launchers" instead of just "torpedo launchers" that can load either. If they were the same size, there's no reason to differentiate the launchers. This also becomes a good reason that there aren't a lot of quantum torpedoes seen used during the Dominion War - the older ships/designs just aren't equipped with the larger tubes. I'd suggest that transphasic torpedoes were same size as quantums, hence why it took a while to get an Intrepid tube sized version for Admiral Janeway to yoink back in time. Oh, and I'd probably want to command an Akira in the maximum torpedobote configuration.
Re: Daisy Cutter: "Daisy Cutter" refers specifically to the fuse used on the BLU-82 15,000-pound bomb to make it detonate right above the ground such that it creates a nice little clearing with no crater, which makes a good helipad and staging area. These were too large to be delivered by bombers and were instead kicked out of the cargo bay of a C-130 transport plane.
Hmm, interesting that your choices were the Steamrunner and Ambassador classes respectively. Personally, if the time period is set during the Dominion War, I'd want to be the captain of either a Nebula or Intrepid. A Nebula because it has the defensives and luxury interior space of the Galaxy while also having a smaller target profile. An Intrepid because of the speed, range, profile, interior space, and especially all the science equipment.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 ; Hey, I didn't say anything about being in the front lines. More like patrols near the homeworlds. Plus, a lot of that space could be used the same way Drach said about using an Ambassador. But yeah, an Intrepid with a battle-cloak and various unofficial aftermarket upgrades is better than a Nebula.
Starfleet officer Drach terrifies me, and i like him. :D Since i don't trust myself to manage a big crew, i suppose i would end up on a skeleton crewed Miranda sooner or later... At which point I'd ring up my XO and ask: "Just how much do you know about the US Navy submarine crews during World War Two?"
16:30 You just described Tector and Allegiance classes - pure gun ships with only few utility shuttles. The "problem" with comparing Imperator-class and MC-80 design family (as all those ships have too much differences between each to be considered one class) is first - Imperator was designed from start as warship, while MC-80 was either fully civilian vessel after rebuild or civilian vessel that is "fitted for, but not with" armament. Second is MC-80 has fewer and lighter guns compared to ISD (part of being designed first as civilian vessel), the only thing over ISD is shielding, and it is debatable due to reactor size/output with ISD powerplant estimated at 250m diameter/ 4,4*10^23 Watts, while MC-80 crossection would not support such reactor without compromising structural integrity
Drach completely turned around MC80 mission profile. I have no idea where he came with heavier guns than on ISD or going toe to toe in line battle. As valuable asset, it often sits in deep space just launching strike crafts through hyperspace, avoiding combat if possible, or just holding up, providing cover for bomber strikes, even if given variant can't hold as many fighters as ISD, it never rushes first, guns blazing, like Devastator in Rouge One. As for shield power (please, don't throw saxtonite watts at me :D ), you could argue, that raw power output isn't everything, and their hull form and better projector technology, allows for better protection with lower power requirements.
Enjoyed the video, gentlemen. I perfectly understand the realities of not being able to cover Babylon 5 in a similar manner. Still, I would love to see it. Hopefully, someone who has a dedicated B5 channel will get in touch with Drach at some point and we can learn his musings on that franchise.
My head cannon has always been Phasers=main guns Torpedoes=long range antiship missile/torpedo. Close range Torpedoes=torpedo in sprint mode, just below melting point.
well done gentlemen another enjoyable video, if you would consider doing this on a semi regular basis, I would not argue against it. if you ask Drach I might be able to assist with this. I'm glad I found this ch, looking forward to more content.
16:43 There is ONE all gun Star Destroyer present at the battle of Endor. It has t MOST a shuttle hangar and even that has either been armored over or has its doors shut. Also without needing to make room for the hangar bay it fits its entire reactor inside. (And makes it bigger) The EU named it "Tector" and there's a decent few running around but they never really served the Empire's purpose because they can't be a one-ship occupation. SO they wewre always a minority and they never really made a Tector 2. Though they did make the Alliegance seen in Dark Empire. 2.3km long to the ISD's 1.6, and way fatter, also all guns no fighters and with a reactor SO big it still needs an external armored dome on the belly.
16:54 What Moncal carries 120 ships? Maybe the Home One and her two sister ships. There aren't any other Mon Cals that can go toe-to-toe with ISDs till the New Republic era. MC80bs and MC90s are much closer to ISDs but even then not always superior.
Intrepid with its small size and technology would be more comparable to a pocket battleship to me. The quantum torp idea is a little inconsistance, supposed to be an anti Borg weapon it became the standard afterwards... As if every ship was fitted with tactical nukes in the Vietnam wars. If I recall the French version of ST III, Sulu says that that kind of Bird of Prey had 12 OFFICERS and their sub category personnel, so I'd say that kind of Bird of Prey must hold at least 30 to 50 people. As for why Kruge didn't have a full crew on his ship at the moment of the movie (because we don't even see that many men on board), that's a complete mystery. may be he killed them earlier? (aka as in the beginning of the movie, so it would really mean that Kruge is on rogue mode as he is supposed to be, Bounty mode (Bones's choice of name is on the more appropriate in that case) running with a skeleton crew to avoid unecessary treason. So 36 in DS9 seems far closer from reality.
What is that 3-nacelle Excelsior variant at 6:50 shown with the California and Ambassador? I remember seeing it in your Battle of Tyra video and wondering what it was.
I admit, I would love to see someone do some of the less-explored Sci-fi series. Especally B5 with it's reboot being developed. Another one that I would love to see explored in some way... Space: Above and Beyond.
This is a great series of videos. Something one did not ask for, but what the Trek fandom needs. Though what is missing here is the un-sexy but critically necessary.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 un-sexy but critically necessary is a topic sometimes discussed within navalist circles. Auxiliaries, like high speed replenishment, oilers, tenders/repair, fleet tugs, small Convoy escorts, salvage ships, merchant marine vessels, etc. And then there are the facilities that support all those vessels, like dry docks, cargo terminals, ammunition loading facilities, etc. It's often easy to focus on just fighting vessels, without taking into the entire maritime domain which those naval vessels are there to support and defend.
@@Jalu3 There's a few ship types matching a few of those in Ex Astris Scientia's Fleetyards site, as a matter of fact - like the Fabrux, Hanseatic and Vladivostok. Plus Last Unicorn Game's sourcebooks and supplements list a few, vaguely detailed tenders, repair ships, medical ships and others (Utah, Andes, Geneva and Deneva)
I guarantee, someone on a bird of prey is there to take care of the gagh. T Klingon ship running out of gagh is about as problematic as a sailing ship of the Royal Navy running out of beer. It's not technically impossible to continue operations, but something has gone horribly wrong and must be rectified at the most immediately possible opportunity. Or else.
I would've reactivate a Constitution-class Heavy Cruiser Refit and give it some additional armor, better photon torpedoes, phasers and the Miranda roll bar with the photon torpedo launcher and an additional roll bar underneath the saucer section and three heavy lance phasers and the phasers the the Bozeman has and also like Drach, commit as much warcrimes at the Dominion as much as possible.
Love the video! Though I suppose I do have another question. Would you two be willing to do a reaction to Templeton Institute’s Interstelar fleet video and perhaps compare it to how real fleets would organize, or just give thoughts on it.
Good luck getting your head around B5 ship classifications. Destroyers being the heavy hitters and huge. Heavy Cruisers being a lot smaller etc. Save your sanity.
Such thinking led fans to all those absurd imperial designs in Star Wars. "It's called ~star~ destroyer, ofc it had to fill role of WW2 destroyer and there much but whole larger spectrum just off screen." Same as earthly nomenclature changed drasticly in less than century, any SF can make their own clasifications. :)
Would the battle carrier concept have any use in commerce raiding/protection? Gun battery and torpedoes for sinking ships plus fighter/scout planes for reconnaissance, anti-submarine, anti aircraft role. Mitigates the inherent weakness of concept by removing it from the battle fleet.
Well intrepid was used as a flagship. Uss intrepid was assigned to the romulan border ( before the dominion war) and after is was a member of a galaxy wing . Battle group. It sounds like it was used as the new ship class for admirals and senior captains, vice admiral ross commanded the federation fleet at the battle of cardassion . ( with chancellor martok in allied supreme command) but our knowledge of the class is limited. Compared to a galaxy . But i suspect the made more pf them than sovereign class vessels.
Kruge was probably running minimal crew of only those he trusted due to his secrecy standards around Genesis, considering he was very much killing any potential loose ends and likely wanted to minimize the need to do so, while the DS9 crew numbers were likely a normal crew size for a bird of prey.
Never thought of it that way about Kruge, but it makes sense. My thinking was the writers had to invent a way for a group of Federation retirees to capture a Klingon warship and not have it be a complete farce, so they chose a deliberately small crew size to make the plan seem plausible.
You know what I'm going to watch your non trek videos just to help you break out of the algorithm so you can feel free to cover the other stuff. I think Babylon 5 falls under the remit of history because of the scandalous closeness of it to Deep Space Nine.
"It's only a war crime if we lose!" Starfleet Captain Drachinifel, 2374, probably.
It's not a war crime the first time™
While I would recommend watching Babylon 5 based on it being a fantastic series; I respect knowing your limitations on time and energy. The random tidbits that Drach throws into his videos showing his knowledge and enjoyment of things like Star Trek, Babylon 5 and WH40k are little nuggets of extra fun to spice up the naval history knowledge. Plus it allows him time to do things like collaborate with this channel which I had never heard of but now will watch for some Star Trek content. Thoroughly enjoyed the series of videos and hope it happens again.
Uncle Drach is big fan of both B5 and WH40k.
He has definitely referenced B5 many times and is quite fond of Nuke em Sheridan
My question on the crew size of a Bird of Prey took a tangent I wasn’t expecting, but damn! Drach’s theory about the Klingons keeping spare birds around and diving up the crew to fill out the spare hulls and meet certain mission types suits the Klingon mentality like a glove.
Yeah that was a very interesting discussion
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Great series with Drach, don’t know how he manages to put out so much content!
Yeah, I do the same with my four identical cars!
The head is detachable.
@@jimwegerer5988 And Halfscreen just did a Bird of Prey cutaway video, but scaling it to barely 50 metres, however.
24:06 Supercharges exist for WW1 guns.
USS Texas: floods one half of ship. "Observe".
100,000 LIVESSSSSSSSSS!
(Ace combat reference.)
The "French Napoleonic model of if you survive the battle you get a promotion" sounds like it would be a really interesting to read about
As another complication on the definition of what is a frigate, from post-WWII to 1975, the US Navy used the term frigate as a classification for ships larger than destroyers but smaller than the WWII cruisers remaining in the fleet. Confusingly, the hull classification symbol for these pre-1975 frigates was DLG (DLGN for nuclear powered ones.) Post-1975 these were mostly reclassified as cruisers (either CG or CGN), although a few of the smaller classes were reclassified as destroyers (DDG), and the ships that were classified as Destroyer Escort/Ocean Escort (DE/DEG) were reclassed as what the USN now considers to be a frigate (FF/FFG).
It would be interesting to see Drach do a video on different classes of ship and their sci-fi counterparts, including ST, SW, 40k, and whatever else. Still grounded in naval history but also branching out a bit. Maybe how real ship classes, and their changes over time, influence sci-fi ships.
With regard to the comparison between the Imperial and Imperial II class Star Destroyers and the Mon Calamari Star Cruisers, the Mon Cal ships are certainly smaller, more lightly armed and armored, and carried fewer fighters. They favored ion cannon batteries to turbolasers. Most of the Mon Cals actually had more ion cannons but significantly fewer turbolasers than their Imperial counterparts. Where the Mon Cals definitively outclass the Star Destroyers was in their shields and the quality of their fighters. The Mon Cal shields were considered to be stronger than Imperial systems and they had multiple, redundant shield generators and projector systems. They carried fewer fighters, but their fighters were nearly universally better armed, better armored, more versatile, and above all carried shields and hyperdrives. The fighters used the Mon Cal cruisers as bases of operations, refuel, rearming, and repair points, but were not tied to them. And Rebel fighters could, very often, outlast and almost always outgunned their Imperial opponents.
Another great video! Thank you! I always considered the Interprid Class as an odd duck. In my mind they resemble the large heavy destroyers the French were fond of in the late 1930s. Like the outstanding Le Fantasque and Mogador Classes that carried near cruiser sized guns (5.5 inch) and had extreme speeds of up to 45 knots. The Mogador Class *carried 8(!) 5.5 inch guns* in four twin armored turrets. At 137 meters in length they were in the realm of light cruisers but with a more flexible mission set. They vastly out-gunned any other destroyer class and were built to counter Italian fast light cruisers, and had the range for both patrol, convoy duty, but the arms to conduct commerce raiding, raids against enemy ports, attacking lone cruisers and as both the torpedo destroyer and ersatz light cruiser role in fleet actions. While it is true that Frigates in the post-War period are filling that multi-role billet, a ship like the Fantasque, while capable of being multi-role, is first and foremost an offensive weapon.
So while the Intrepid is built for deep exploration and may fill the Frigate size, it seems quite designed as having extreme armament for its size. With its speed it is ideal for the long-range mission profile of Heavy Destroyers that can work in packs of 3-5 deep in enemy territory attacking convoys, heavier targets of opportunity and raiding. Heavy enough weapons to attack even heavy cruisers (and not suffer 50% losses like the B'Rel) and fast enough to escape any unfavorable situation.* Whereas it is true that we do not see Intrepids in squadrons like we do Galor Class Heavy Destroyers, that do operate as packs to destroy individual heavier targets (like the Nebula Class USS Honshu), I think that is only because they aren't built in numbers yet. We only ever see two. They SHOULD be used as Heavy Destroyers in war and as Destroyer Squadron flag ships. And one has to imagine that the return of Voyager is an endorsement to build many more.
*If people have played the old, classic Star Trek Game "Birth of the Federation," using fast Heavy Destroyers in squadrons of five to seven to raid deep into enemy territory was the best tactic to whittle away an enemy factions resources and numbers. If one gets to Tech level 10, the Defiant Class becomes available and putting them in Wolf Packs and letting them ravage the enemy rear with system raids, Outpost destruction, convoy raiding and destroying small groups of heavy ships is a game winning tactic.
I just wanted to leave a comment and say that I have loved this series! I was introduced to your channel through this series and have thoroughly enjoyed the rest of your content :)
I have to say though, this has been my favourite so far, I'm a big fan of longform content of people talking about something they're passionate about, so this "podcast" style of content where you're just talking about trek stuff was very pleasant to listen to, would be very excited to see more like this, be it solo, with Drachinifel, or with other guests!
Keep up the great work :)
Well about Quantum Torpedoes ... the Dominion ships certainly had then and so did the Cardassians (Dreadnought), as the mechanics are barely explained on screen and they make no mention of subspace they are just more powerful versions of photon torpedoes for practical effects.
Tricobalt devices on the other hand ... its skirting because it was only in Insurrection that subspace weapons had been banned but well, they could disrupt or create rifts in subspace but apparently werent considered subspace weapons because reasons.
Of course there is the question why Voyager was even carrying then as they werent standard, the show never explained it either despite raising the question, it would kinda like the captain of a submarine just loading ASTORs for a search and rescue mission.
Yeah I kinda call BS on Dreadnought. The dominion might have used quantum torpedoes but they did have their own polaron torpedoes
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Well timeline is very "iffy" since in order for Dreadnought to have Quantum torpedoes that mean Cardassians had then in 2370 but the Dominion War was 2373-2375 and the Federation only started deploying Quantum torpedoes in 2371 starting with Defiant, in theory its possible I suppose since Quantum torpedoes appear to require launch tubes that differ from standard (Enterprise-E for example were Quantum torpedoes only fired from a specific tube) and its possible Galors simply couldnt carry then but then again, we had fighters firing Quantum torpedoes written in the script so ...
Inconsistencies are something expected, also I call BS on Dreadnought but on the fact its a self-guided missile, its expected to crash into the target and then detonate, having Quantum torpedoes that at the time were a brand new more powerful torpedo in the Alpha Quadrant it would be a waste and no way in hell they could had gotten then from the Dominion at that time.
As for the Dominion, well ... lets just say DS9 is a headache for actual technical details, I looked at Memory Alpha and neither the Fighter, Cruiser or Battleship are not mentioned to have Quantum torpedoes (just "torpedoes)" but their FX is the same as Quantum, personally I wouldn't go with Poloron since its mentioned as a energy type (and yes, I am aware what photons are) but I will agree that they never actually mentioned what type of torpedoes they are and the FX could simply be they going for a similar affect and nothing more.
Either of you could do any subject you are knowable about and would listen. Start a group project where you all can do those fun topics.
On the one hand, I would dread serving under a hypothetical Captain Drachinifel because I know the working conditions would be dreadful. On the other hand, I'd be elated because I'd be getting showered in medals, commendations, and promotions, so maybe I might get promoted to command and I can have one of the few quarters that hasn't been converted into a phaser array or torpedo launcher.
On Battle Carriers in SF:
Pure fleet carriers get trashed at close range by any gun-centric ship. If the setting's FTL or cloaking devices allow this to happen you can't have pure carriers as major combatants. A battle carrier can't fight another battleship, but it can stand up to a surprise decloaking or jumping cruiser or two. I first encountered this argument in the BSG context, but because of cloaking devices it also applies to Star Trek.
It may be that such settings shouldn't have carriers at all, but if they do have carriers they should be hybrids. But against a Jeune Ecole adversary like the Klingons a battlecarrier doesn't have to concern itself with surprise short range engagements with battleships, but it does have to worry about surprise short range engagements with cruisers, frigates, and destroyers that half a battleship can handle.
On the other hand what I really expect to see in Star Trek are tenders not carriers because Trek FTL works at the fighter scale. There should be a hangar to do repairs, but mostly you carry some industrial replicators at least big enough to manufacture torpedoes or fuel cannisters, a lot of feed stock, and a bunch of heavy freight transporters to reload your fighter swarm, and rec facilities better than a fighter. What Starfleet calls exploration cruisers ought to have all of this except maybe the heavy freight transporters as a natural part of their exploration role.
I would love to hear Drach and you talk about Star Wars. Old EU preferred of course.
I've never been a big fan of Star Trek( outside of DS9 and Enterprise) but your guys tactic here of parallels to real Naval History has been the most engaging entry into the lore I've encountered.
Between this and Depths of DS9 I'm really wanting to get into Trek.
From that single titbit, I assume he lacks SW nerdknowledge to talk about it. Even that treky stuff is streached a lot at times to fit his comparations. :)
I would argue that using fighters in space combat a la DS9 was possibly a secondary role especially for the Federation. The biggest role would be aerial fire support on a planet surface and going places where a larger starship may not fit, such as asteroid belts. There have been plenty of cases of atmospheric conditions or intense space combat preventing a Starship from supporting away teams or ground units. Having something like a Peregrine deliver heavy phaser or microtorpedo fire could be useful.
I'll just note that where "frigates" are concerned, Star Fleet Battles called small ships frigates (below destroyers) and they were "first" in doing this. FASA Starship Combat Simulator called LARGE ships (above cruisers) frigates, essentially modelling the USS Constitution in the Revolutionary war. It was interesting to compare the Intrepid (which did have aspiration of long term missions) with the Nova (also stranded but which did NOT have that ability). The Nova is more like the tiny frigate type, or I guess corvette might be more appropriate. I guess I had somewhat more sympathy for that Nova, and I'm not sure they really knew they were sentient till it was too late (and I expect Voyager did probably eat animals and plants somewhere along their journey). They didn't want the rest of the show to have 2 ships, but I think had they handled that better, they should have and it would have come in handy I'm sure.
You can very easily operate for months, to years on end, on 12 on, 12 off, which in reality is about 14 hrs on, and for those that are skilled and higher ranking, in the enlisted, turns into 16-18 hrs on…I did that we deployed every year for 6-7 months, 7 days a week, you might get a day off in that time. Then back in the states, nothing but training. Working 6 days a week, plus things like duty, and going all over the US mainly to shorty deserts here, for 2-6 weeks, or more.
This is indeed another interesting Q&A. In regard to my own thoughts on it: A battlecarrier makes more sense in space than on the water. Though I have some bias due to me being partial to the Venator for Star Wars movie capital ship.
The idea of crew rotation and being able to turn a single 36 crewed BoP into six 6 crewed + reservists BoP is quite the clever idea. The notion of crew shifts is honestly not brought up that often in Trek, I can only recall it a handful of times.
If you want an example of expedient designs standing in for the one you want (but not necessarily weapons or naval), I could point to the US Tank Destroyers development. What the TD Branch's brass wanted eventually showed up as the M18. Basically every design before that (including the M10 GMC) were expedient/interim designs. The M3 halftrack with 75mm guns? Expedient design.
I like to think that Quantum Torpedoes are actually larger than the standard photon torpedoes. Hence why they have "photon torpedo launchers" and "quantum torpedo launchers" instead of just "torpedo launchers" that can load either. If they were the same size, there's no reason to differentiate the launchers. This also becomes a good reason that there aren't a lot of quantum torpedoes seen used during the Dominion War - the older ships/designs just aren't equipped with the larger tubes. I'd suggest that transphasic torpedoes were same size as quantums, hence why it took a while to get an Intrepid tube sized version for Admiral Janeway to yoink back in time.
Oh, and I'd probably want to command an Akira in the maximum torpedobote configuration.
Re: Daisy Cutter: "Daisy Cutter" refers specifically to the fuse used on the BLU-82 15,000-pound bomb to make it detonate right above the ground such that it creates a nice little clearing with no crater, which makes a good helipad and staging area. These were too large to be delivered by bombers and were instead kicked out of the cargo bay of a C-130 transport plane.
Hmm, interesting that your choices were the Steamrunner and Ambassador classes respectively.
Personally, if the time period is set during the Dominion War, I'd want to be the captain of either a Nebula or Intrepid.
A Nebula because it has the defensives and luxury interior space of the Galaxy while also having a smaller target profile.
An Intrepid because of the speed, range, profile, interior space, and especially all the science equipment.
Give me a refit refit Constitution, any day of the week. Throw in a cloaking device, and go a Viking.
@@red.5475 a bit flimsy for the dominion war.
Nebula is pretty much the same size as a galaxy but much slower. Big target
@@venomgeekmedia9886 ; Hey, I didn't say anything about being in the front lines. More like patrols near the homeworlds. Plus, a lot of that space could be used the same way Drach said about using an Ambassador.
But yeah, an Intrepid with a battle-cloak and various unofficial aftermarket upgrades is better than a Nebula.
Starfleet officer Drach terrifies me, and i like him. :D
Since i don't trust myself to manage a big crew, i suppose i would end up on a skeleton crewed Miranda sooner or later... At which point I'd ring up my XO and ask: "Just how much do you know about the US Navy submarine crews during World War Two?"
16:30 You just described Tector and Allegiance classes - pure gun ships with only few utility shuttles.
The "problem" with comparing Imperator-class and MC-80 design family (as all those ships have too much differences between each to be considered one class) is first - Imperator was designed from start as warship, while MC-80 was either fully civilian vessel after rebuild or civilian vessel that is "fitted for, but not with" armament. Second is MC-80 has fewer and lighter guns compared to ISD (part of being designed first as civilian vessel), the only thing over ISD is shielding, and it is debatable due to reactor size/output with ISD powerplant estimated at 250m diameter/ 4,4*10^23 Watts, while MC-80 crossection would not support such reactor without compromising structural integrity
Drach completely turned around MC80 mission profile. I have no idea where he came with heavier guns than on ISD or going toe to toe in line battle. As valuable asset, it often sits in deep space just launching strike crafts through hyperspace, avoiding combat if possible, or just holding up, providing cover for bomber strikes, even if given variant can't hold as many fighters as ISD, it never rushes first, guns blazing, like Devastator in Rouge One.
As for shield power (please, don't throw saxtonite watts at me :D ), you could argue, that raw power output isn't everything, and their hull form and better projector technology, allows for better protection with lower power requirements.
Enjoyed the video, gentlemen. I perfectly understand the realities of not being able to cover Babylon 5 in a similar manner. Still, I would love to see it. Hopefully, someone who has a dedicated B5 channel will get in touch with Drach at some point and we can learn his musings on that franchise.
My head cannon has always been
Phasers=main guns
Torpedoes=long range antiship missile/torpedo.
Close range Torpedoes=torpedo in sprint mode, just below melting point.
Just on Venom's point about crew fatigue. The working theory is that was the critical factor in the sinking of the Moskva
Exactly what I was thinking. What with Gowron's operation to "de-dominion-ise" cardassia.
Bird of Prey for 'close air support', sounds interessting.
Ah yes. 5 inch door Kickers for CAS missions. Fun!
well done gentlemen another enjoyable video, if you would consider doing this on a semi regular basis, I would not argue against it. if you ask Drach I might be able to assist with this. I'm glad I found this ch, looking forward to more content.
The B'Rel conversation is really interersting.
16:43 There is ONE all gun Star Destroyer present at the battle of Endor. It has t MOST a shuttle hangar and even that has either been armored over or has its doors shut. Also without needing to make room for the hangar bay it fits its entire reactor inside. (And makes it bigger) The EU named it "Tector" and there's a decent few running around but they never really served the Empire's purpose because they can't be a one-ship occupation. SO they wewre always a minority and they never really made a Tector 2. Though they did make the Alliegance seen in Dark Empire. 2.3km long to the ISD's 1.6, and way fatter, also all guns no fighters and with a reactor SO big it still needs an external armored dome on the belly.
Hey, if it's a extra photon torpedo launcher on your ship... It ain't stolen because it never left the custody of the UFP/Starfleet. Sham-on!
Well looks like we need an “Incanifel” or something. Idk I would be a fan of a verity show. I could see a guest speaker role maybe?
I'd want a Parliament class CA.
Either that or an Interceptor class DD.
I love flying fast and dishing out high calibre firepower.
16:54 What Moncal carries 120 ships? Maybe the Home One and her two sister ships. There aren't any other Mon Cals that can go toe-to-toe with ISDs till the New Republic era. MC80bs and MC90s are much closer to ISDs but even then not always superior.
I LOVE Babylon 5, so Drach - DO IT! :)
Intrepid with its small size and technology would be more comparable to a pocket battleship to me.
The quantum torp idea is a little inconsistance, supposed to be an anti Borg weapon it became the standard afterwards... As if every ship was fitted with tactical nukes in the Vietnam wars.
If I recall the French version of ST III, Sulu says that that kind of Bird of Prey had 12 OFFICERS and their sub category personnel, so I'd say that kind of Bird of Prey must hold at least 30 to 50 people.
As for why Kruge didn't have a full crew on his ship at the moment of the movie (because we don't even see that many men on board), that's a complete mystery. may be he killed them earlier? (aka as in the beginning of the movie, so it would really mean that Kruge is on rogue mode as he is supposed to be, Bounty mode (Bones's choice of name is on the more appropriate in that case) running with a skeleton crew to avoid unecessary treason.
So 36 in DS9 seems far closer from reality.
What is that 3-nacelle Excelsior variant at 6:50 shown with the California and Ambassador? I remember seeing it in your Battle of Tyra video and wondering what it was.
One of the DS9 kitbashes uss hutzel
Ah, ok. That is strange looking. Almost like that Sun Tzu class or the Centaur but with an extra nacelle. Thank you!
Intrepid Class is a Light Cruiser...(closer to a medium cruiser considering the tri cobalt devices)
change my mind
Light cruiser easy
I admit, I would love to see someone do some of the less-explored Sci-fi series. Especally B5 with it's reboot being developed. Another one that I would love to see explored in some way... Space: Above and Beyond.
I would watch the sh*t out of the adventures of captain Drachinfel, commanding officer of Ambassador class USS Devious
49:15 Stargate?! YEEES!
THE INCA EMPIRE??? YESSS YESSS YESSS!!!!!
stupid youtube algorithem
This is a great series of videos. Something one did not ask for, but what the Trek fandom needs.
Though what is missing here is the un-sexy but critically necessary.
What's that?
@@venomgeekmedia9886 un-sexy but critically necessary is a topic sometimes discussed within navalist circles. Auxiliaries, like high speed replenishment, oilers, tenders/repair, fleet tugs, small Convoy escorts, salvage ships, merchant marine vessels, etc. And then there are the facilities that support all those vessels, like dry docks, cargo terminals, ammunition loading facilities, etc.
It's often easy to focus on just fighting vessels, without taking into the entire maritime domain which those naval vessels are there to support and defend.
@@Jalu3 There's a few ship types matching a few of those in Ex Astris Scientia's Fleetyards site, as a matter of fact - like the Fabrux, Hanseatic and Vladivostok.
Plus Last Unicorn Game's sourcebooks and supplements list a few, vaguely detailed tenders, repair ships, medical ships and others (Utah, Andes, Geneva and Deneva)
I guarantee, someone on a bird of prey is there to take care of the gagh. T Klingon ship running out of gagh is about as problematic as a sailing ship of the Royal Navy running out of beer. It's not technically impossible to continue operations, but something has gone horribly wrong and must be rectified at the most immediately possible opportunity. Or else.
I would've reactivate a Constitution-class Heavy Cruiser Refit and give it some additional armor, better photon torpedoes, phasers and the Miranda roll bar with the photon torpedo launcher and an additional roll bar underneath the saucer section and three heavy lance phasers and the phasers the the Bozeman has and also like Drach, commit as much warcrimes at the Dominion as much as possible.
Allow me to put in a 'Yes, please ' for the tip to bottom B5 naval history deep dives.
Moncalmar ships are tanks heavy armor and sheilds and can roll to get all guns on a target
Lindsey Stirling once said in an interview, it is easy to be the best at something if you are the only one doing it. LOL
It's (almost) never a war crime the first time
so that 10 tricobalt volley will get rules made, but you might get away with it once
Love the video! Though I suppose I do have another question. Would you two be willing to do a reaction to Templeton Institute’s Interstelar fleet video and perhaps compare it to how real fleets would organize, or just give thoughts on it.
Not really a react channel here. But I'll give it a look.
Would you two ever do videos on the ships and navies of the Honorverse?
I think it would’ve been interesting if the Klingons sold the Maquis bird of prey and other military equipment
41:09 What ship is this? I've never seen a BOP variant like this, before.
Norgh class heavy bird of prey
Oh sweet!
Good luck getting your head around B5 ship classifications. Destroyers being the heavy hitters and huge. Heavy Cruisers being a lot smaller etc. Save your sanity.
Such thinking led fans to all those absurd imperial designs in Star Wars. "It's called ~star~ destroyer, ofc it had to fill role of WW2 destroyer and there much but whole larger spectrum just off screen." Same as earthly nomenclature changed drasticly in less than century, any SF can make their own clasifications. :)
Akira is the long range support while you have defiants, sovereigns, and steamrunners as close in brawlers....
Sovereign would probably hang around mid range
If I was gonna command a starfleet ship I’d go with a narendra.
Would the battle carrier concept have any use in commerce raiding/protection? Gun battery and torpedoes for sinking ships plus fighter/scout planes for reconnaissance, anti-submarine, anti aircraft role. Mitigates the inherent weakness of concept by removing it from the battle fleet.
Then you might as well drop the giant gun turrets so you gain speed and some more planes and let those sink the ships..
Well intrepid was used as a flagship. Uss intrepid was assigned to the romulan border ( before the dominion war) and after is was a member of a galaxy wing . Battle group. It sounds like it was used as the new ship class for admirals and senior captains, vice admiral ross commanded the federation fleet at the battle of cardassion . ( with chancellor martok in allied supreme command) but our knowledge of the class is limited. Compared to a galaxy . But i suspect the made more pf them than sovereign class vessels.
Kruge was probably running minimal crew of only those he trusted due to his secrecy standards around Genesis, considering he was very much killing any potential loose ends and likely wanted to minimize the need to do so, while the DS9 crew numbers were likely a normal crew size for a bird of prey.
Never thought of it that way about Kruge, but it makes sense. My thinking was the writers had to invent a way for a group of Federation retirees to capture a Klingon warship and not have it be a complete farce, so they chose a deliberately small crew size to make the plan seem plausible.
The California class in the series seems to hold up in combat.
Well long enough to get rescued
Still easier to define a frigate than a woman these days. 🤣😋
Torpedoes ! Is there a limit on power/names etc . Or will another weapon be introduced , complimenting .... ?
You can get larger bombardment torpedoes the only limiting factor is the bore of the tube.
I see intrepid as a Corvette. ( i believe the designer said so in a book or interview)
That's a very large corvette.
Klingons as a Marine Force. Well just like regular Jarheads they do like eating crayons.............
Over gunning old ships works.
Seems like the microphone wasn't set up correctly for these two videos.
Yeah drach was recording this while at tankfest. I'm afraid this will be a continuing issue.
Please do more Star Wars I love Star Trek but want you to do that it’s that what you do with Star Trek that would be perfect
Really this is all I want to see @drac. Just show on random channels
I liked Babylon 5, but man those graphics do not seem to have aged nearly as well as most of Star Trek and Star Wars
36 angry klingons or 2 very pissed off whales? Id rather face the Klingons
ok man.... you seriously need to watch Babylon 5, if not for your channel just watch it for your own pleasure. It's awesome!
More please
TIL Klingom promotions operate with Call of Duty/XCOM logic.
You should watch it. It is the third best syfy show of all time.
You know what I'm going to watch your non trek videos just to help you break out of the algorithm so you can feel free to cover the other stuff. I think Babylon 5 falls under the remit of history because of the scandalous closeness of it to Deep Space Nine.
No B5 ? UuUUUUUUh big mistake ... Give it a go. You won't regret it
Thanks guys i know imagine the Star Wars Starforge with a Klingon symbol
Star trek channel or not, do yourself a favour and watch B5 🥰