Ferengi do well either way. Jadzia: And as the 34th Rule of Acquisition states: "Peace is good for business." Quark: That's the 35th Rule. Jadzia: Oh, you're right. What's the 34th? Quark: "War is good for business." It's easy to get them confused. (DS9: "Destiny.")
I’ve read a book where a Klingon engineer saw every technical problem as a foe to be defeated. Everyone thought he was weird, but I think he was applying the traditional Klingon way of thinking to other areas besides combat. And DS9 had that Klingon lawyer who saw the courtroom as his battlefield
I think we don't give the Klingons enough credit. We mostly see the ones in power, the highest ranking nobles who would have a reputation to uphold in a culture that views fighting skills as the highest to achieve an death in battle as the ultimate goal (much like with vikings and their religion). But that doesn't mean all layers of Klingon society would work that way. The Klingons were technologically ahead of the UFP for a very long time. Even with their head start, that's not something that just happens. European nobles tended to spent a lot of time practicing fighting skills and leading their forces into battle but that still was only a small part of the population. They didn't bother much with with matters that didn't directly affect the dynasty. Scientific endeavors were often an indulgence as such things take up a lot of time they often needed for politics and military operations. That doesn't mean others people didn't do such things (we know they happened after all). We rarely get to see the common Klingon. Even Worf was of a high ranking noble house and held much the same attitude as the high council members. Prestige in those circles is counted in battle honors and fighting skills. Not in research, trade, etc. Even Quarks ex-wife Grilka was high enough up the food chain to get an audience with the high council. Not too many people these days would get the opportunity to personally plead their case in front of the head of state and the entire cabinet. That takes a lot of power and influence. So again, not a common Klingon. There would be plenty of farmers, workers, scientists. engineers, etc. in Klingon society. We just never get to see them.
@@roepi there was an episode of ENT where a Klingon lawyer told Archer that it wasn’t always like that. His father was a teacher, which used to be a respected profession. It was the warrior caste gradually taking over Klingon society that changed things
I love this. In principle the Klingons are the paper tiger and the Romulans are the real threat, but in TNG the Romulans are the ones who back down, in Selma’s blockade and in the invasion of Vulcan, but in DS9 the Klingons first go to actual war with the Federation for two episodes before they do the lion’s share of the killing and dying in the Dominion War. The Klingons’ biggest weakness on screen is their willingness to take casualties.
Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. Although the invasion of Vulcan was doomed anyway. When your invasion force for a planet is about the size of the LAPD, you'll have issues.
The Romulans are the true paper tiger. The Dominion war showed that. The Rommualns build large and powerful ships, but they can't build many, the Rommulan Star Empire has a small population. The Romulans pose the greatest threat to thr Federation, because they are relatively close to the core of Federation space. The Romulans threat has always been a surprise decapitation strike . Any war with the Federation will be lost if it lasts more than a few months. The Romulans know this.
@@evandavid9087 I like both TNG and DS9, both are my favourite Star Trek but TNG edges it out for me because of its lighter, bright tone about the future, which is what Star Trek was supposed to be all about, DS9 went a bit too dark, war focused and with a bit too much action, which at the time, pulled a lot of viewers off it. But I will give DS9 some credit, it did great of the script writing and story telling being continues over all the episodes of DS9, whereas TNG was very episodic, but that's mostly because of being a product of the time, things started to change in the 90's when it came to tv series and how they told a story.
@@paul1979uk2000 The difference between the two really all hinges around the death of Gene Roddenberry. If he was still alive when DS9 was pitched and written, it would have been insufferably WORSE than... whichever series you don't like most. [TV series - not just Star Trek.] Not being allowed to write conflict between main characters (Gene's rule) was a HUGE crutch for TNG writers. DS9 clearly wasn't bound by such nonsense and the quality of the material shows. DS9 - Best ST ever.
@@sunspot478They also ended up having different formats. TNG is essentially a collection of science fiction short stories, most episodes being self-contained and based around one strong "what if?" idea. By contrast, DS9 is closer to a space opera novel or series of novels, with many long arcs running simultaneously across multiple episodes and indeed multiple seasons.
Honestly I don’t, I think leaving them as an unknown, perhaps in a stand-alone episode here or there would be best, explaining anything more then we already know about the Breen would ruin them thematically. Their mystery is what makes them such a cool species
The Dominion doesn't overlook diplomacy _anywhere_ and had enough to work on. They put off for later every Alpha/Beta Quadrant power they could at any given time.
The Tholians are a very special case. Hyper-isolationist xenophobes with a physiology and techbase that is fundamentally incompatible with basically everyone else's. You basically have to leave them alone, or you end up dealing with a giant monkeywrench that can't be reasoned with because it hates everything that's not Tholian.
The map where the Romulan Star Empire is smaller looking than the Klingons and Federation is a simple case of Tall vs Wide. Any Stellaris player knows a well run Tall empire can be the equal of the entire rest of the galaxy in basically ALL ways, with a little luck and good planning. Space is BIG. you don't need thousands of systems to compete on a galactic scale, you just need to DO more with what you have,
@@anamarvelo My exact thoughts. The romulans whilst territory and population-wise smaller were perhaps the most efficient power. That would explain why they are able to emerge in such a strong position after a century of isolation and limited expansion but also why the loss of their core worlds crippled them so much in a way it wouldn't the others (with the likely exception of the klingons which are so inefficient and overextended any disruption seems to put them on the verge of collapse). That being said, the Romulan Free State seems still capable of projecting power in a significant way even if not a true rival to a strong federation.
@@Jacques_a_dit - the Klingons had their hobus moment when Praxus exploded i suppose. They didn't lose their homeworld but losing a moon and the tidal consequences would certainly have devastated Qo'nos.
@@nagillim7915 I'd need to rewatch the film again, but I remember the loss of the moon having caused them a big enough projected economic setback that they were basically begging the Federation for help so the Empire wouldn't collapse.
@@nagillim7915 it was such a calamity that the Klingons were going to be extinct within a few years unless Federation helped them out and negotiate for peace.
I'd love to see a Stargate one. I mean if you go through the whole series the Tau'ri go from one of the weakest powers that doesn't even know about life outside of their world to possibly the dominant power in multiple galaxies. I also love how someone once used the fact that the Tau'ri get farther in dealing with things like the Wraith as a point in an essay on how the Ancient civilization actually wasn't that great and were kind of terrible in some ways.
The federation used to be much more weak when it came to the military. They were so peaceful that at first they had rather minor weaponry and no real warships. As the seasons went by and the series, as the borg became more of a problem and then the dominion, the federation started focusing more and more on dedicated warships and general aspects of warfare, and are now a much greater power.
I personally find Star Trek more interesting when the high ideals and ideology of Starfleet gets punched in the face by realpolitik and forced to compromise to ensure not only their own identity, but their own survival.
Starfleet ships: "I came here to scan space anomalies and kick ass, and if you don't shut the fuck up and let me do the former, it's gonna be _your_ ass I'm kicking." They really just wanna measure neutron star spin, man.
Starfleet and the Federation were dedicated to the pursuit of peace and knowledge, and their ships reflected this being one that is home to hundreds of families, with the Galaxy class having unprecedented multi-role capabilities, with a many of its armaments being for defensive purposes. Despite this, the Galaxy class was on-par with the Romulan's D'deridex starship - a purpose built warship with their most advanced weapon systems. It goes to show, if the Federation were to ever utilise its hundreds of member species' technical knowhow and resources, like they did for the Borg, they would become unmatched. This perhaps explains why the Terran Empire was able to practically takeover half the galaxy and defeat the Borg outright.
The Borg have no competition. Thanks to assimilation, they are always able to rebuild the empire at a pace unattainable for other powers. Thus, the decline in their position in the galactic arena is temporary.
The borg have evolved multiple times. Dating back 2-3 million years or more to now. It's assumed they were wiped out, but they return again and again. So true they could collapse but in a million years they will resurface. It's what makes them so terrifying. You defeat them if that even happens. And if you do, in a million years, you might not be around to stop them. The Galaxy can go back to a less advanced state. While the borg are the same.
The problem with the borg is Stagnation. They dont seem generally capable of new advancements outside assimilation. So if anyone finds a way to counter them(which has happened *ahem Species 8472/The Undine *ahem*) they have very little ability to do anything about it. On top of that the more we know about the borg the more it seems like they are really bad at force alottment. In Voyager it was shown they had millions of borg cubes in one area of space(borg space). If they had arrayed even 10 percent of that against the federation they would have won. hell 5 percent of that would have gotten them total dominance in a non-federation sector of the alpha quadrant(they would have taken out the ferengi or the cardassians easily). The borg have always been really bad at threat assessment, sending 1 or 5 cubes against entire fleets expecting their adaptable shields to just win the day(and ignoring obvious tactics like teleporting drones right into enemy bridges and engine rooms when their shields were down) I should say that i am saying this as someone who really likes the borg. I think the borg should really be able to win any war they go into easily. The technology and organization they have means they should realistically be able to wipe out any nation they go up against including the federation if they were operated realistically. but plot dumbness stifles them at every turn. The 2 Dominant powers in the star trek universe should be the federation and the borg and the federation should really be like...one area of the alpha quadrant barely able to hold back borg advancements by continually out researching them in anti borg technology. while the borg should be able to just bulldozer over basically anything not purpose built to fight them. But that would make for a boring story.
"Romulan miscalculations in their foreign policy have resulted in some of the biggest geopolitical blunders in history." Isn't one of these blunders the formation of the Federation itself? IIRC they tried to start a war between humans, Andorians and Tellarites (I think?), but screwed up and led to the Federation forming. Well done there, Rommies
Or the creation of the Borg.. I wonder if eventually we will find out that Romulans are Species 001 Their creation of AI.. is what became the Borg.. hence their absolute hatred for what they did.
Yeah. The Romulans were afraid of the powers in the Alpha quadrant as they were all decently strong and the resources in this area of space are better than in most other regions of the galaxy. Not to mention it included their old foe the Vulcans. As shown in the last season of Enterprise they became so afraid of how the humans had started dialogue between the races and quelling centuries long grudges that they used their stealth tech to try and restart conflict between races only to have the humans use this to further unite them into the Coalition. Basically the Rommies were so afraid of their enemies uniting that they attacked them all and caused them to unite to fight them. Also if you have not read the novels that were written based on ideas for the next three seasons of Enterprise that were cancelled. This leads to the Romulans declaring war on the Humans in hopes of crushing them and stopping them from furthering the Coalition of Planets... only for the Humans to win the deciding battle with the help of the other races and even a few Klingon outcasts looking to reclaim some honor in battle and then using said victory to get the other powers that took part, except the Klingons, to untie into the Federation. Its also the fact that the Romulans get so badly beaten in this war that they started that leads to them to agree to the Neutral Zone and cease all their black ops and other antagonistic behavior they had been performing in the Alpha quadrant for centuries before.
@@Nostripe361 Assuming this is canon (or closely resembles canon), it _really_ argues against the Romulans being any real peer of the Federation, since Terra by itself was a peer during that war, the other founding states were also peers, and add them all together with their tendency to peacefully bring in new members, and its hard to see how the Romulans came anywhere near keeping up. Then again, we have the example of "Yesterday's Enterprise."
19:00 There is a TOS novel where the Klingons and Federation are in a competition for control of a planet under the peace imposed by the Organians. The contest is farming and one of the Klingon farmers says that at the end of the day if his fields are free of blight then he has won and brought honor to Empire, his House and himself.
Then there’s cases in Enterprise and Deep Space 9 that lawyers view themselves as warriors fighting on a different battlefield. This leads me to believe there is more to the Klingon Empire than just warfare.
@@utubrGaming I tend to agree. I think we 'see' only the warlike side of the Klingon empire due to its aggressive foreign policy, but honor and struggle are variously defined. Almost like the term jihad means struggle and can mean either violent warfare or internal struggle for reform.
@@MandalorV7 Yes, according to Enterprise that is how Klingon society once viewed all tasks/jobs - there was "honor" to be found in many places, but the military effectively took control of their society, extolling their own virtues while aggressively downplaying all others.
19:30 Arguably that was the original Kilingon ethos and what allowed them to become a great power in the first place. Whether you were a warrior fighting enemy warriors, a scientist fighting ignorance or a janitor fighting dirt there was honor in all of it, with time it degraded until only the path of the warrior had honor.
That's the only possible explanation on how the Klingon Empire could become so powerful in the first place. You can be a good fighter all you want, but without technology you can't really compete against a starship. Klingon must have had plenty of very intelligent and dedicated scientists to get where they are during the narrated events.
This was discussed a couple of times in Enterprise. In the early 22nd century (PR !maybe late 21st), The Military Culture became the strongest. So, say 200 years of cultural zeitgeist to overcome.
I'd love to hear how a few more powers rank on this chart, namely: the Tholian Assembly, the Gorn Hegemony, the Sheliak Corporate, the Orions, and a number of Delta quadrant powers like the Krenim, Malon, Hirogen, Kazon, and Vidiian. It would also be interesting to speculate how the Iconians would have ranked at their height.
Most would likely be regional powers today. Many of these are opponents from the early days of the Federation, and their home worlds, while still independent, may well be within Federation Space today. This shows an important trend. When the Federation was small, the Klingon Empire seemed huge and a great power in comparrison. Now, with the Federation having grown huge, even the the Klingons have had some development, they are still reduced to a regional power simply becasue the scope of the space the Federation interacts with has become so much larger!
I also would love to see the Kzintis, Lyran Democratic Republic, Lyran Empire, Wyn Star Cluster, and ISC. ISC was very similar to the Federation in terms of government. It was also made up of many different races like the Federation. I would have loved to have seen a war between the Federation vs ISC, one on one to see who would actually win.
Postulate: Romulan Star Empire would have conquered The Federation if they could have. Fact: Cloaking devices are a massive strategic advantage. Therefore, with Starfleet signing the Treaty of Algeron, The Federation was comfortable enough with their ability to overpower the Romulans to the point of agreeing to not research this relatively common military boon. The Romulan Star Empire needed cloaking technology to be remotely at parity with Starfleet come TNG/DS9. Your Romulan bias was very, very real.
And he disregarded the fact that the Klingon's have the very same cloaking technology, and were quite adept at using it. And I am fairly certain the Klingon Empire was bigger than the Romulan Star Empire, and their forces bore a massive chunk of the fighting against the Dominion, especially when the Breen weapon came into play. The Romulans relied on subterfuge and infiltration rather than brute strength because they were militarily weaker than the Federation. They managed a draw against 22nd century Feds. The Klingons had fought the 23rd century Feds to a near standstill, although they were eventually driven out. And the Klingons weren't entirely static on technology. They did innovate and make newer and more powerful warships like the D6, D7, Vorcha, and Neghvar warships, and their birds of prey went through many different models, even retiring ships due to defective plasma coil designs. They just weren't as good at it as the Federation was. The Klingon's were lacking on medical tech not because they couldn't do it, but it was a cultural bias where they believed that a Klingon should either overcome their wounds by their own strength or perish and go to Stovokor to join the honored dead.
Also remember in the episode where Troi infiltrated the Romulans. The Romulan Commander said "The Federation is neither weak nor stupid." He also said they would not be able to sneak through Federation territory undetected. Also other than Cloaks the Romulan Empire is not shown to be ahead of the Federation in any way.
yes, this. I believe the Federation does not pursue cloaking for 2 reasons. 1. Internally and Externally they want to show they have nothing to hide, they aren't creeping on their neighbors, and starfleet is not spying on their own citizens. 2. more directly because of the treaty they don't want to provoke a conflict with the Romulans and/or Klingons. However, if push came to shove, I think the Federation would be willing to take off the kid gloves and stop fighting with one hand tied behind their back. The Romulans greatest strength was always its secrecy. They didn't let outsiders see their true strength or internal politics, when they did interact with other powers, they always show their best ships so it looks like those are the most common ship the Romulans have. Once Romulus collapses I think their big show of strength is gone, they are still very capable but no longer seem to be a major threat for someone like the Federation.
@@TheCsel Except the Romulans had a monstrously big fleet of ships stronger than the D'deridex to face the Federation in that fight over the robot homeworld. Starfleet had to bring its A+++ game to make them stand down.
My perception of the cloaking device is that it turns your spaceship into the space equivalent of a submarine. Submarines are good for many things and can inflict devastating losses, but they are bad at conquest. In a siege, you have to just lie there to deal and absorb punishment. Cloaked ships make great raiders (what the Romulans seem to use them for) and the Klingons use them to create the honorable skirmishes with small forces they love. But for an invasion armada, not so much. Also, the Federation favors Diplomacy, and others knowing you have cloaking technology is likely to make them very suspicious.
I feel like you're selling the Dominion short, they fought the dominion war with only the forces they had stranded in the alpha quadrant and their client states and seriously came close to victory. The loss of their fleet in the wormhole during the second battle of DS9 was definitely a huge blow, but even with reform, I doubt the Dominion has any real competition in their own quadrant.
I think the humiliation of the Dominion’s defeat would so damage the Founders’ religion that the structure wouldn’t be able to hold. The only way it would be able to is if the bulk of the population, especially the Jem’Hadar, were so isolated from information that they wouldn’t know what happened in the war. If the Jem’Hadar rebel the Dominion is toast.
Actually, I think there are relatively minor events in DS9 that show serious cracks in Dominion society. Lack of respect between the Vorta and Jem'hadar, growing sense of Founder fallibility, the prospect of Jem'hadar being freed from Ketricel-white. All of that sounds like kindling and Odo's new ideas about rights and respect for solids sounds like a spark for an inferno. Odo was certain to bring a new outlook and it probably wouldn't convince everyone in the great link. Within the Gamma quadrant, the Dominion would still be unrivaled, but resistance would seem more possible if they knew that there was a whole quadrant out there that fought them off. Yes, materially, the Dominion was in good shape, but politically, socially and reputationally the Dominion would almost certainly have lost a step or two.
I got the impression that the Dominion War was basically a minor border skirmish for them, and they probably lost more ships to the wormhole aliens than the Federation and its allies. I assume they probably have a fairly good handle on the spread of information and since only Vorta and Jem'hadar knew about what happened and how they are both loyal to the Founders then they could have put a fast gag order out, and if not, well they are still a minority and the Founders could have purged them easily. I'm pretty sure that the problems with the issues with Vorta and the Jem'hadar probably came about because of the footing the Dominion found itself on during the war and would probably die out relatively soon, keep in mind that Jem'hadar don't live very long. I don't know remember how much of other Dominion races show up, but I kinda got the impression that they basically gave all of their subjects a list of do's and don'ts and then left them alone as long as they kept following the rules. Its entirely possible that the only reason the Dominion ships so poorly (for degrees of 'poorly') because the full tech base of the Dominion was not involved. We do not even know if the ships used were their most powerful vessels available, much less how close they were to the Dominion's version of cutting technology. Putting it another way, it might have been similar some of Rome's military expedition disasters, like the Battle of Teutoburg Forest or the Battle of Carrhae. Sure they were terrible for Rome, but they didn't have any significant impact.
For the romulans. It's stated the romulan neutral zone stopped being a thing and that for the most part the star empire has fractured. There is a romulan "free" state but it's clear it doesn't control all of former romulan territory and that we simply don't know the full extent to the devastation the former empire has endured
@@Izznogood76 I don't recall that bit but it wouldn't surprise me if the borg managed to recover some what from the catastrophic blow Voyager gave them
I imagine it being analogous to DC being destroyed and a number of regional blocks forming. Like the the Republics of Texas, California, Cascadia, the Great Lakes, etc. With smaller powers, like the State of Deseret, either becoming isolationist or forming trading partnerships with their regional neighbors. Some less populous regions would be largely forgotten about and left to their own devices. Around the well established core worlds (analogous to the Northeast Megalopolis) there would just be a new capital selected. The balance of power between the old core and the break away regions would be interesting to see. With the core worlds trying to reintegrate their former holdings any way they can. Be it diplomatically, economically, or militarily and the breakaways developing their own independent cultures.
@@frankb3347 - i also think we see enough internal hostility within the existing Romulan power structures during TNG that a fragmentation of some kind would be likely. The Tal'Shiar vs the Romulan Navy would be a likely fault line that was foreshadowed throughout TNG. Cut off the head that keeps the two on the same side and, well, open conflict seems likely. I do have a pet theory that the anti-time future Q creates in All Good Things is also one in which Romulus was destroyed, and that in that reality the Federation does succeed with its evacuation plan, leading to their war with the Klingons. I'm actually surprised that with the star empire weakened the Klingons haven't got involved. Maybe they were hurt worse by the Dominion War than section 31 predicted. They have a long open border with the Romulans and yet none of the Great Houses felt like doing a bit if annexing? 🤔
I largely agree with your assessment. I think maybe you sell the Breen a bit short. They are spoken of with fear and respect during the Dominion war, and their entrance to the conflict was considered a tipping point at the time. They quickly displaced the Cardassians as favoured Dominion allies.
When it came to Federation military, what I think many forgot was that the Starfleet "no dedicated warship" policy work both way. In much the same way as very few Federation starship are true warship, very few Federation starship are not warship either. The fact they didn't separate peacekeeping fleet and military fleet give them massive flexibility. A small group of Miranda and Excelsior class cruisers can maintain logistic to outlying colonies as effectively as intercepting Klingon raiders intruding into those sectors, then return to logistic operation as soon as the Klingon were driven away. Also, I almost forgot that part where "unknown" individual talk about the post war power. That make one fan theory that Hobus supernova is either manipulated or even created entirely by an "unidentified" rogue organization within Federation make some sense, especially with their the-end-justified-the-mean method.
According to the Extended Star Trek Universe created by Star Trek Online, which has all the force of every other bit of Beta content, it was the Iconians that destroyed Romulus.
I wouldn't say the Federation is 'unwilling' to develop technology that the Romulans have, the Treaty of Algeron specifically forbids the Federation from developing cloaking devices and its shown that if they wanted to, they could.
@@cp1cupcake The Phase Cloak, was technically better as the ship could not be damaged by weapons while under cloak. Whereas Klingons and Romulans, generally, are more vulnerable to damage while cloaked.
Given enough advancements it would be a gamechanging tech. Both offensively and defensively. Though knowing its the feds they would pile on the defensive bonuses.
Yes, it is shown that if the Federation _wanted_ to develop "forbidden" technologies, then they still could or still would anyways. But the point is that the Federation _shouldn't want_ to develop these techs anyhow. Not because of a legal or technical restriction, but because of a lofty arrogant moral one.
The only one that I seriously disagree with is the 2400 Dominion. There's really absolutely no reason to believe or suggest that Dominion has lost any ability or influence within the Gamma quadrant. Even if they implemented reforms suggested by Odo, their span and reach is such that they are fundamentally untouchable in terms of scope. To the best of our knowledge they remain the only major political force in the Gamma Quadrant and I don't see that there would be any reason to rank them lower than top tier. Just because a cat sheathes its claws doesn't mean that it doesn't have them.
Definitely, and consider that the Dominion had been a stable power for over 2000 years before contact with the Alpha Quadrant. Surely it wasn't the first time that the Dominion's forces had lost a regional war against a foreign power before. Also, the fact that the Dominion was able to do so much damage with only a limited amount of forces present in the Alpha and Beta quadrants and that the Allies were unable to do any meaningful damage to the Dominion within its own native territories, there would be little motivation for them to undergo radical change that would lead to instability or a loosening of their ancient tried and true governing system. Another thing to consider is that the Dominion's losses were all in the scope of ultimately expendable, or at least replaceable, military assets. Sure, their allies suffered casualties and their relations with the Dominion soured, but it's not like the Cardassians could share their grievances and spread the message of dissatisfaction to any of the other Dominion client states. Hell, for all the species subjugated under the Dominion in the actual Gamma quadrant, they would've went on with their lives with the greatest change the War caused being a temporary increase in taxes or tribute or whatever, and even then likely not to a degree that it would become an issue, due to the vast number of worlds that the Dominion would be able to draw their resources from. They have been expanding their empire for again, over 2000 years, and given how much the Federation is capable of expanding in just a few centuries with several wars sprinkled in between, that's not something to underestimate. The Dominion would have total information control over what anyone in the Gamma quadrant would hear about the war. There would be no reason for their protectorates and vassals to suspect that there was going to be any chance of major change in the Dominion due to the war. They would have no reason to protest the cost of lives and resources of the war, since A: The Dominion uses Jem Hadar and local Alpha and Beta quadrant allied species for its troops, not drawing from any of its client races on their side of the wormhole, and B: even if they wanted to tax their territories a lot more to aid in the war effort, the limited size and highly contestable nature of the Bajoran wormhole means that it would be impractical, as only so much supplies and reinforcements could arrive at any given time. Also, the forces they had sent to fight the war could've only been a small fraction of their total military force, as they would have so much territory in the Gamma quadrant and besides for the wormhole space limit, it's not as if they could just move a million ships from across an entire quadrant in a week or something. Warp speed has set limits.
@@fadelsukoco3092 I think that with the exception of the bioweapon deployed against the Founders, they largely considered their war in the Alpha quadrant in much the same way that the British considered the War of 1812. It was kinda of a side show, and it was happening Over There, without much effect on Here. That being said, I'm guessing it was the first major setback they'd experienced in quite some time. As you said, they're very old. They've been growing for so long that it's probably been a very long time since they'd run into anyone who could give them a hard time. They'd been gobbling up individual worlds and systems, maybe small interstellar nations, but the overall impression was that there just wasn't anything close to even Klingon Empire size a stone's throw from their ever-expanding territory. For client worlds that were dissatisfied with the arrangement, knowing that there was an alliance on the other side of the galaxy that drove back the Dominion probably wouldn't help them out that much, since it took basically the three most powerful nations in the Alpha quadrant teaming up to defeat a Dominion expeditionary force and their two allies of also-rans. The Dominion might implement a few reforms, between the food for thought that the war in the Alpha Quadrant gave them and whatever influence Odo might have. But their overall power is unlikely to wane.
Not to mention the War didn't remove their industrial capacity, in fact it didn't even include it, all of their territory and the value it can use from it. They had no reason to really reform, or reform in a way that actually would weaken Founder Control.
I think if anything Odo's influence might push them towards a more Federation style view. Still dominated by the Founders but with more of a focus on mutual benefit holding it together rather than military domination (despite the name). Still a Hyperpower but less oppressive.
18:46 I have always loved this scene. Perhaps in part because I like to garden vegetables. But it always struck a chord that the warrior race would help the farmers because the enemy at that very moment, was "time". Quite poetic.
The Dominion war had the fighting part cut off from the Hyper power state for a large part of it, and yet showed they were able to fight almost everyone. Their own power base wasn't touched. Even with reforms, I doubt that they have somehow gotten weaker. Their biggest issue was that their technology seemed to stagnate. Reform, and trusting member states more, could solve that.
I think you're underestimating the Klingons. In all the alternate timelines, the Klingons are kicking ass. In "Yesterday's Enterprise," the Klingons are winning a long term war against the Federation. In "All Good Things," the Klingons conquered the Romulans. In "The Visitor," the Klingons drove the Federation away from Bajor and Cardassia. Also, the Klingons talk about honor a lot but the Klingons who rise to power are quite practical and opportunistic. For example, the Duras were the most powerful house during TNG, not because they were honorable but because they were rich and shrewd political players. As for the Borg, they had trillions of drones and millions of ships at Unimatrix Zero. They would have to suffer unimaginable damage to fall to a regional power.
The way I see it, if a war between the Federation and the Klingons erupts, it would most likely go the way of Russia's "special military operation" in Ukraine. Klingons would initially make gains into Federation space with whatever Federation forces near the Klingon border at the time conducting delaying actions and as time goes on the situation for the Klingons would only get worse as Klingon logistics strain, Federation ships start arriving from shipyards and other sectors, and partisan actions behind Klingon lines would eventually force the Klingons to the negotiations table. Also, the House of Duras and the house/clan system is a serious problem not a benefit for the Klingon Empire.
@@MarcusMaxentius the Communists (Federation) only need to destabilize the Klingon government, cause infighting or a revolution. By the way that was how the German Empire got rid of the Russian Empire in World War I. Someone should do the same again right now.
The shows and movies build up the Klingons beyond any reasonable capabilities for a polity like theirs to raise the stakes. The alanysis in this video is fundementally correct, in no realistic way can the Klingons hope to defeat the federation is a war and it is only the pop culture misunderstanding of where military power comes from (and it's not "warrior culture") which allows the Klingons to be treated as a valid threat. In reality, regardless of what "canon" might be, the mechanics of the Universe and the realities of warfare, politics, and economics mean that the Federation is destined to dominate the Beta quadrant.
I have to agree, the Klingons in the 2370 are a superpower they fought the federation an the Cardassians at the same time a regional power couldn't do that. Also they were able to hold the forces of the dominion at times again a regional power couldn't do that.
In "All Good Things" i think Q included a few real world astronomical events, like the supernova. I'm actually surprised no one in the Klingon Empire took advantage of Romulus being destroyed in the prime timeline to attempt to one-up the other Great Houses and unseat Martok as chancellor...
Very interesting! I'd love to see this expanded for the Delta Quadrant during the transit of Voyager. In two sectors, a sphere of influence from Ocampa to the Necrid expanse, and another from Necrid to The Void.
First time visiting your channel, and my family of Trekkies all watched this episode & thoroughly enjoyed! 😁 Loved the logic, humor, episode clips, and above all, references to Luther Sloan (one of the most intriguing and well-written villains ever)! Loved the deep dive into the Trek universe; and keep up the good work! 🏆💯
@@scribbles1424 That wasn't the case for a long time. it was only through a combination of luck, crazy plans, and the power of FRIENDSHIP and Cooperation rather than assimilation that the borg were defeated.
@@tnh723 Hulk sees this as absolute win, but he's not considering that time travel is only good story when you have an excellent writer AND dont overuse it.
Paranoia can be useful in diplomacy, both internal and external. It keeps you aware of hazards and gets rid of complacency. It's nothing more than a hyperawareness of the things around you.
I thought the idea was that humans primarily from Earth abandoned currency economics for philosophical enlightenment. If you are a member of the Federation, you can still have and use money, even if you are a human colony. I don't think they'd force a philosophy on any member worlds.
Earth must have some form of currency, even if it is drastically different from what we understand today. Human's on earth are frequently show operating small business, such as Picard's Winery or Restaurant operated by Siko's father.
It's nothing to do with a lack of money and everything to do with a "post scarcity" of everyday necessities. technology makes basic stuff so abundant, people don't need to buy it. theres a lot of sources for some form of currency being used by citizens for luxuries. The federation in its dealings with other powers also uses currency for trade purposes.
@@benhobson3084 - they have a winery and a restaurant because they enjoy doing it. Is it so difficult to imagine a world where we were all able to do what gave us fulfilment full-time because automation and limitless energy from fusion power provided all the necessities of life without human labour being required?
David Weber's book "Into the Light" gives a great example of how a post scarcity economy like the Federations could work. All basic necessities are free. You want decent food, a nice apartment, and a basic aircar then you can get one. But if you want the best food, a massive mansion, or the newest, best Templin 3000 aircar then you need "credit." You get credit by trading it (giving it to employees), or getting a government job. Technically credit is time you can use on the massive replicators they have (the stuff which can print starships) like the way money used to be backed by gold. Giving a Star Trek example. Sisko has a job working for Starfleet and gets credit from it. Sisko pays Picard credit for a bottle of his wine. Picard goes to Sisko's father's restaurant for a meal and pays in credit. Sisko's father pays his staff with the credit from Picard and the other patrons. The really funny thing is that it technically is fascism, where the state controls the means of production as pretty much everything is made on their fabricators.
As for the Ferengi in 2370, I'd only argue this: Previously, Picard and Data in an episode of TNG had regarded the Ferengi's technology as, "Rivaling the Federation's own." That, combined with their clear trade-ties and inroads to other major powers like the Romulans, feels like it should earn the Ferengi at least a, "Regional Power" rating.
They only said that because they knew very little about the Ferengi at the time. As was mentioned in the same episode. They didn't even know what they looked like.
When the writers over the years destroyed all the rivals to the federation, they have to constantly make up terrible galaxy ending stories every two minutes.
I mean, that’s kinda how it had to go. The federation is the strongest, so the next step in the timeline would be bigger threats further away, by the time of TNG the Romans and Klingons were already shrimp, and it did well to realistically show how each failed
@@oldyladI think that logic is kinda self-defeatist, in a way. If the writers of the show really wanted to give the Klingons or the Romulans something to work from, they would've. They have complete creative control over the IP, after all. For instance, who's to say the Romulans would've gone down after their homeworld was lost? Even if it was the seat of their power, surely with an empire as enormous as theirs, there's bound to be another world or worlds within their territory that has facilities to be retrofitted to serve as a new seat of government. And as much as the Klingons don't look stable from a long-term perspective, the writers have the power to make them as dangerous or benign as they want. They're the KLINGONS! Prolly second to the Feds for most marketable Trek faction! The fact that they have willingly allowed the various other powers to diminish is their own fault, and so - like @kampfuchs5192 pointed out - they have to write in new antagonists or threats for the protagonists to face.
It's just a reflection of our own geopolitics. Romulans could be more of a threat of they had kept up with a wider range of technology in the same way the ottoman empire could have, but they didn't so they gradually fade
It's a real shame, because there really isn't a geopolitical scenario quite as exciting as the Axis-Versus-Allies inspiration of the Federation and the Dominion. It's the kind of war-story setting so familiar and rich with narrative possibilities that few would object to, say, a 26th century series revolving around a titular New Dominion, etc. They could also switch up a bit who was part of each side to keep it interesting. Again: it would just be a reflection of both our world wars and/or recenter alliances. War never stops.
I mean, they went whole hog with the Firts Federation and all the godlike beings in TOS so why don't you feel like that about the TNG timeline. Not even apeaking about Q.
I've always imagined that eventually, the Federation would be the dominant power in the galaxy, with the Ferengi, Romulans and Cardassians all eventually becoming member worlds. The Klingon empire I would imagine shrinking down considerably, with some Klingon colony worlds seceding and joining the Federation.
I agree. The Federation would eventually come to control the entirety of the Alpha and Beta quadrants within 100 years or so. By the year 2500 their only real rival would be the Dominion. The Federation would control half the galaxy and the Dominion would control the other half as competing hyper powers.
@@Novusod the only question for me (and I don't know about books or Star Trek Online) is what trajectory the Dominion world take after Odo returned to the great link. Seems to me that for his story to have a fitting end, his influence on the founders would be rehabilitating... That they'd turn away from their authoritarin past.
I find you have vastly underestimated the Ferengi, especially with Zek as the Grand Nagus. That guy knew how to play the long game for profits and was deviously intelligent on how he acquired them. The Ferengi were technically the ones to make first contact with the Dominion thanks to him and his efforts to be the first to establish trade routes in the Gamma Quadrant. This not only granted him access to an insanely massive economy but also managed to provide intelligence to the Federation regarding the Dominion when they needed it. Quark was even authorised to cease all trade if the Karemma didn't provide info on how to locate the Founders. He also managed to use Ferengi as intermediaries for the trade agreement between them and the Federation. Do not underestimate them. Their greatest weapon is money and they use it very well. Also they do trade with every known power out there including the Federation. How is anyone's guess but they do appear around Federation worlds seeking profit.
@@lorzon Yeah we do see Riker get put in charge of negotiating a trade offer for use of a Wormhole. The Federation clearly does engage in trade, it just isn't interesting in currency and prefers simply to trade goods of approximately equal value.
Agreed. The Ferengi don't deal in money or profit. They deal in SCARCITY. Because of this they are very flexible and opportunistic. You don't notice the Ferengi until they are there with something you need or just as importantly, NOT THERE with something you need. Even the Federation has to pick up the phone when the Ferengi dial (if its important enough and not just the latest pitch for Slug-O-Cola.)
I think the Dominion is stronger than you think even after a paradigm shift. Keep in mind: the forces they mobilized in the Alpha quadrant were a tiny fraction of what they could muster. The mining and blockading of the wormhole by the DS9 crew and the Prophets kept the majority of their reinforcements in the Gamma quadrant. And post-war, what losses of territory or resources have they even suffered in the Gamma quadrant? Not much. The Founders immunity to being assimilated is a huge weapon in their arsenal against any incursions by the Borg
As for the Dominion I do not feel they were to damaged at all by losing the war. They still control the Gamma Quadrant and can rebuild and rearm at their leisure.
I disagree, I think it is possible, given what is shown in DS9, that the Dominion could be deeply fractured. Odo would be a compelling advocate for the rights of solids within the great link but not necessarily universally persuasive given the deep cultural mistrust the founders have. I think it would divide them. If such division were to happen, control of the Vorta and Jem'hadar could get complicated, maybe even lost ketricel white or not. You don't have to loose home territory to be damaged by war. The founders may have begun to loose credibility with the Vorta and Jem'hadar. Their client races may loose a bit of fearfulness. The Founders themselves may loose confidence in their own principles. The Dominion, is more politically and morally fragile than you are giving them credit for.
@@wagrhodes13 That's a lot of 'possibilities' there. Human history is full of nations which had major military setbacks and recovered almost immediately. The "fractures" you see are only being unrest caused in a localized area because a tiny fraction of their force was caught without support and forced to rely on local auxiliaries. The only reason the Dominion had so few ships in the war was due to the wormhole being inaccessible, first by the mines and later by the wormhole aliens. The Founders would have no issues with just wiping out of the returning Jem'hadar and Vorta even if is just to ensure they can put their own spin on what happened. We have no way of knowing that any of their subjects would know about what happened, much less that a war was fought.
@@cp1cupcake Yeah, a small isolated force of Dominion under competent leadership managed to steamroll the Alpha and Beta quadrants for a good while before Sisko and friends tricked the Romulans to join their side, and even then the Dominion still held out for a while. They made very good use of the circumstances, manipulating other species like the Cardassians into doing some of the work for them and using Changeling infiltrators to destabilize enemies. Hell, with how much the Alliance was afraid of the Dominion sending in a reinforcement fleet through the wormhole before it got poofed by the wormhole aliens, it was likely equivalent if not greater in number than the fleets the Dominion had sent in initially.
Awesome and thorough analysis! The thing about the published maps is that they all tend to treat the galactic plane as effectively 2D, which creates the weird impression that the UFP is cut into pieces. I'd love to see a more 3D representation, which might show stretches of UFP, Romulan, or Klingon territory overlapping with those of other powers at certain Z coordinates.
Honestly, though, the Templin Institute took the bias notion of saying the Federation would have still won the Dominion War in actual reality the Dominion was kicking their ass across every frontline simply because of Starfleet's lack of upgraded ships and the utopian liberal mindset by it's leaders. Even Lore Reloaded on TH-cam would question the Templin Instuties's overall perspective.
The Federation's timeline would be a very useful example of exploring these power dynamics, particularly in the context of soft power. It started as a group of regional powers unified under a common threat, and has gone about a policy of extremely enthusiastic inclusion. The major states are all great powers thanks largely to accruing the benefits of a tremendous range of technologies and ideas from other members, and includes dozens of regional powers and well over a hundred minor powers, but thanks to having a very unusual uniformity of ideals and the extremely effective use of soft power, it wields much more power than even the cumulative totals of its member states. It also demonstrates how past a certain threshold, soft power begins to snowball - whatever the specific terms of joining the Federation are, they must be tremendously generous for so many states to join so eagerly.
Strict is a relative term. The Feds are an open society and the terms of joining means member states must embrace that openness. What we've seen from the first contact episodes is first and foremost an extreme care to not interfere with pre-warp civilizations. When such a culture is discovered they may be observed and territory is set aside for them. They've never said exactly how much but it's at minimum their own solar system, and probably a few surrounding habitable systems if the galactic geography makes it possible. We've seen a number of societies fail their application based on shady internal politics. So the conditions for federation membership are only really strict for authoritarians and scumbags. There are probably also restrictions on how rapidly new member's societies are opened to the greater federation culture, beyond the initial political alliance, to prevent them from being overwhelmed.
A diplomatic relationship with the Federation is easy, be a warp capable society and they will reach out to you. The whole Cochrane Effect that was brought up in Star Trek: Picard. Federation Membership is probably harder. By necessity their rules are both strict and vague. There is no one way to run a society. Andorians for example, are a militant society. Their social structure is built around one's rank in the imperial guard. Apply their methods to humans and you would have a recipe for fascist state on par with the Federation from the Starship Troopers universe, yet that is not how Andorian society treats it's citizens. The United Federation of Planets has to judge on loose criteria: Is the government stable? Does the government allow free expression of ideas? Are the basic needs of all citizens met? (And those needs may vary depending on the species) And the real politick question: Does the applicant enhance the federation, or will they be a burden? There is probably at least one post-warp society stuck in the middle of federation space that can't join because they refuse to tackle their own wealth inequality.
The Federation is the only known society that's not an autocracy of one sort or another. That means that any world that is free or wants to be free has nowhere to turn but the Federation, and the benefits of joining/allying with it are immense. It is basically the NATO/EU of the Galaxy. If the Templin Institute's analysis of the Dominion is correct, it probably enjoys a similar sort of soft power in the Gamma Quadrant, based on its offer of peace and stability. Nobody else even seems to understand soft power, much less acquire and wield it effectively.
10:48 The fact they're a Superpower is probably not an accident. Let's not forget that Gene Roddenbery grew up during the Cold War. Superpower soft conflicts were constant
I love Ferengi. It is basically pay to win strategy. They become more powerfull after war while other suffer heavy loses. And they are really funny and with deep philosophy.
And alos he say federation klingon romulans ect not trade Fedration have out federation trade option, only few part of federation and they colony not use money. Romulans and feregin have good relation in biznes. Feregin lern that is not good for profit to laiy romulans and they stable trade betwen them, once you show a feregin you not accept a shit they actuality start give you a good stuff in good price, so like klingons or romulans normal work on that but federation have a problem, what they do after a bad trade ? Do a war xd ?
I like the series! But I think, the Borg are still at least a super power or great power, just because of their potential. Yes they are broken right now, but they can recover at tremendous speed. Also the Romulan Empire is at least still a Super power even in decline. They were still able to infiltrate Starfleet, build enormous fleets, control a vast amount of systems and conduct major science projects. For example the Borg cube in Picard. Next - Warhammer 40k Babylon 5 Mass Effect Stargate
Yes, this. A regional power can't become a hyperpower in 2 or 3 years, but a recovered Borg clearly could. You'd think this would be a sufficient number of classifications, but the wild swings in 2400 show it to not be the case. Romulans went from a very weak superpower to the top end of regional power. If the Federation ranks ahead of the Dominion it is by the slimmest of margins.
I very much enjoyed the analysis and lore you presented here. The Collective might be down and out for 2400, but it will come back, given the opportunity and the time.
No. The Borg Collective was in severe decline since 2378 thanks to a time travelling Amiral Janeway an her neurolytic parthogen. In 2401 the Borg Queen was alone. All her drones have died and she was unable to assimilate new drones.
Except when it suffered its worst defeat in history at the hands of the Borg, when it considered surrendering to the Klingons (twice), and when it was almost destroyed by the Dominion. But apart from that, they're totally unstoppable.
@@saladinbob And yet they didn't get assimilated by the Borg, but rather became the only nation in thousands of years to successfully repel multiple attempts at assimilation, in the process dealing such a blow to the Borg that they are reduced to a shell of their former power. And as to the Dominion, while the Dominion had a technological and manpower advantage over the Federation when the war began, eventually the Federation had neutralized pretty much every one of those advantages, and became the first nation to defeat the Dominion in it's 10,000 year history. And the Federation only considered surrendering to the Klingons once, in a alternate timeline in which the Empire was much stronger. Nothing you stated disproved his points. Unstoppable does not mean invincible. The Federation gets bruised and bloodied, sure, but so far they have emerged from every challenge thrown their way stronger than they were before, while those powers they have gone up against have become a shadow of what they once were. That sounds pretty fucking unstoppable to me.
@@Spoons__ I disagree. Unless the Dominion were able to achieve a quick victory, their chances of beating the UFP was small. Certainly, the Klingons and Romulans helped a great deal, and brought the war to a close far sooner than it would have without them, but I would argue that the Federations adaptability and engineering capability is their greatest strength, and that made them well equipped to fight a war of attrition. It would have been a long and bloody campaign, but ultimate Federation victory was possible even if the Romulans and Klingons never entered the war.
The Borg would have had a much easier time if they arrived in peace and offered membership to any and all who wished to join as well as allowing those who wished to leave to do so. Through diplomacy they could offer their services as a think tank. By making themselves enemies to all they doomed themselves from the outset.
If they ever manage to achieve perfection i think they would go down that route. After achieving perfection, adding other imperfect beings by assimilation would be a net loss to the collective. Though, by definition, perfection is unachievable...
“Diplomacy is inefficient.” - The Borg, probably. Tho considering their exponential capacity to adapt, you’d think that their psychological “warfare” (think Federation diplomatic skills) would be top tier… 🤔
@@UGNAvalon I think Borg adaptation refers only to their technology. Their social/psychological structure (if it can even be defined as that) is horribly inflexible, and tends towards generalization rather than specialization (how many drones have a chance at becoming queen?) to the point where diplomacy is almost an alien concept to them (though they pass this off as not-worth-their-time and below them)
This is actually a very good list. The Federation and the Romulans definitely emerge after the Dominian war as the two major powers, so it feels correct to put them ahead of the Klingons. Similarly, by the time of the Picard series the Federation are pretty much unopposed in the Alpha Quadrant, and undoubtedly a hyper power.
In the old game "birth of the federation " the ferengi where broken. They could simply buy the map and the other powers would struggle to bring anything noteworthy to the table while a disposable orange title wave of fleets smothered whatever you thought you had that was important.
Because my original comment seems to have disappeared, I'll repeat. Interesting analysis. for my thoughts it'd be the following: 2370: (Sub-)Hyper: Dominion & Borg; Super: UFP; Great: Romulans & Klingons; Regional: Cardassians; Middle: Ferengi & Breen. 2400: Hyper None; Super: UFP, Borg, & Dominion; Great: Klingons; Regional: Cardassians, Ferengi, & Romulans; Middle: Breen. My reasons will be in a following reply.
You mentioned cloaking as a technology the Federation was _unwilling_ to pursue. This isnt true: the Federation has pursued cloaking a few times, but it is prohibited from doing so after 2311 due to a peace treaty with the Romulans, and we see routine use of cloaking by Starfleet vessels in the 32nd century, long after the Romulan Star Empire has ceased to exist, replaced by the unified Vulcan/Romulan Ni'Var state.
Whilst true that's too far in the future to be useful to 24th century analysis. And by that point the federation is a rump state abandoned by all its founding members and barely able to keep up with a criminal cartel. Not to mention strongly implied in the most recent season to be technologically and scientifically far behind Ni'Var at the point when they rejoin.
@@nagillim7915 I don't think it's that simple. In real life international courts have sustained many times governments still have to abide by treaties signed by their legal predecessors. So the federation would need to renegotiate the treaty with whichever government emerged as the legal successor of the star empire. Unless they started using cloaking devices after the Romulan-Vulcan unification which would truly mark the end of any obligations the federation had if vulcan was still a member world
@@Jacques_a_dit - what if there isn't a successor state? What if the empire fell apart and there are multiple Romulan states with different attitudes towards the Federation? Which takes precedence? Though that may not matter anyway. Our international courts exist as part of the United Nations. There is no equivalent to the United Nations in Star Trek and therefore no court with jurisdiction at a supranational level. The closest equivalent would be the Khitomer conferences, but those are temporary assemblies and not permanent systems of arbitration.
@@Jacques_a_dit even if there was the equivalent of a international court the power of that court is limited. If a member of the court declines to honor the ruling they'd have to rely on the international community to enforce...and if the Federation is the analogue to the US they'd be the main military power to enforce the ruling. The reason the Federation doesn't (usually) break the treaty is it helped prevent war. If the Stat Empire was gone there'd be no need to enforce it.
I would love if someone would rank all the omnipotent/god like/non-corporeal individual and collective powers in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant. They mostly appear in one episode lulls in franchise storytelling but I have always found them fascinating. Playing trickster games like the Q Continuum, wormhole aliens as benefactors, emotionally volatile planet owning powers that wipe out whole races and planets, entities that are alive and live in space etc. And use a Kardeshev scale kind of measurement. I've typed so much, maybe I just volunteered. Lol.
We don't know enough to comprehend the power scale of them. It is because of the unspoken or unactions they take. Could they destroy the Galaxy without effort in a blink of an eye? We don't know. Because we are still here. They could but choose not to. Could they say we can't? Sure. Do we believe them? We can't be sure because they are beyond our understanding. In terms of ranking you can put them in a god like power tier above hyper power. But you can't rank them differently. We don't know if we are their sandbox to play in. Or if they exist in the same box as we. And we can't trust a word of what they say because we don't know if we are simply being mislead for fun or for our own good.
It would be interesting to see this updated after Discovery. We have another 1,000+ years to add in that show alone... and the burn impacted everyone. Great video.
I love this channel so much. I've dreamt my entire life to be able to have these kind of conversations, but always unsure of the enthusiasm of the other people. Glad I found a channel that goes as deep into the overarching world building vice the exact plots. Staying in character for the narration vids is just a bonus.
9:50 On the subject of cloaking, the primary reason for the Federation being unwilling to develop cloaking devices (I think, anyway) was a treaty that forbid them from doing so. The USS Pegasus used a phased cloaking device, so we know that the Federation is capable of making them.
The Federation has had the capacity to work with cloaking technology, and during Kirk's time was actively researching a lot of it... or stealing it from the Romulans. This shows how much of the influence that sort of thing. However, that also drove a lot of the continued rivalry with the Federation and risked war, something that the Federation was always hesitant to engage in as a first solution. This leads to the Treaty of Algeron between the Federation and the Romulans in which the Federation agreed not to engage in research into cloaking devices in exchange for not having a war. Though, it also runs into issues in which while they signed the treaty, there weren't always those that followed it. The research on the USS Pegasus and the Holoship to move the Baku show that there were those within the Federation that were at times willing to violate the treaty for some other means.
The USS Pegasus fiasco with the Phase device wasnt originally meant to be a cloaking device (barring section 31 shenanigans), just something that allowed them to move through solid matter without contacting it. Then somebody realised it totally could be used as a cloak and things went down hill as the crew mutinied. But its been years since ive seen the relevant episode so my memory and google fu might be failing me.
The only other major science fiction franchise I can think of that has a level of political intrigue approaching Star Trek would be Babylon 5. That might make for an interesting analysis
B5 power structure seems fairly straight forward compared to Star Trek. Vorlons and Shadow are hyperpower level, if you count them as powers. The Minbari are the only superpower, and even borderline hyperpower, since they could probably singlehandedly take on everyone else in the known galaxy just by themselves. The Centauri are a great power, while the humans and Narn are regional powers at best. The Minbari can easily beat the Centauri, while the Centauri can easily beat either the humans or the Narn.
Agreed on the Federation as Superpower. 2400: With the Romulans downgraded, the Dominion back in it's corner and the Borg having suffered so much, there is no real rival left. All Picarad Season 1 is, is some border skirmish. A side project of maybe 2 Admirals. Their only true danger is timetravel, no wonder they go for the Temporal Accords. Until the Burn scours them, they are basically unrivalled. And even after, they only fall down to Great Power. # Klingons - also agreed. As you said, their focus on military ends up stabbing their own military in the foot. For the Federation, fighting them was basically a "side gig". Something they did _on top_ of all the other stuff. 2400: Yeah, they had all their existing issues - plus the devastation of a true total war. # Romulans - yes, they are a Superpower. As you said their Foreign Diplomacy is lacking. "Romulans - so predictably deceitfull." - Weyoun. 2400: I think their biggest loss was in unity. "All roads lead to rome." When the Tal Shiar headquarters was turned into a asteroid field, their ability to keep people in line splintered. People just up and left. Quite a few stayed because there is stil strenght, but at least half their power is gone. # Cardassian. Also agreed. When comparing the two, I would say the Tal Shiar is more a offensive Secret Service. While the Obsidian Order is more a defensive oriented one. 2400: I would downgrade them to a Regional Power at best. They require Federation aid just to not collapse. And the best future is to join the Federation. # Ferengi also agreed. What hampers them in particular is their weak central government and their focus on short term gains. It is hard to leverage their power with that. 2400: I would only have Upgraded them to a Regional power, as their power is still very fractured. With a solid central government, they would have been a Great Power before the war. I mean they were originally designed as a Rival to the TNG Federation. # Breen - I would at least put them on Regional Power. Even after their weapon was defeaed, they still comitted quite the military to the war. Easily on par with the Cardassians or Klingons Fleets I would say. 2400: Nothing much changed as far as we know. # Dominion - agreed. What the Federation fought with was the Advance force and they still needed allies. Without the distance and the Prophets blocking the wormhole, the Dominion would never have _needed_ allies. Even the Cardassians were only used to make a Bridgehead. However their technology is actually weak. They did exist for 2 Millennia, yet their total sum technology was barely ahead of the Federation. This was all their progress in 2000 Years. Despite all their resources, they failed at curing the virus. That tech progress is easily worse then the Klingons and propably worse then the Borgs! 2400: I still think they are a Hyperpower. Even with reforms, they are still the biggest one in ther Quadrant. Because they destroyed all potential rivals ages ago. As far as losses are concerned, the Dominion war was bascially a border Skirmish. Most of the resources lost were part of that advance force. Their biggest weakness is now that the Federation has overcome their initial tech advantage. # Agreed on the Borg. In a way, their Hivemind is a exceptionally strong government, a exceptionally good way to leverage resources and manpower. Their weakest point is being inventive. All their knowledge is stolen. Hoarded over centuries. Despite their unrivalled ability to leverage their population, the performance in science is lackluster. Their ability to adapt is - ironically - non existant. Adaptation relies mostly on what they have already assimilated. They can not realy "invent" new stuff, only realize that some old knowledge is usefull now. 2400: They might not even be a Regional Power anymore. They took a hit to their central government on par with the Romulans. But at least with Romulans and the Dominion, people might still _want_ to stay allinged to them. There is no such luck for the Borg! Literally nobody wants to be part of the Borg Collective.
I'd enjoy an alternate version of this based on the Star Trek Online setting. If nothing else, we have a LOT more information on the various powers. Tentatively, I'd classify them as follows: United Federation of Planets: Superpower, but approaching hyperpower status. A key part of this is their alliance with the Klingon Empire and Romulan Republic, and their newfound ability to project power into the Delta Quadrant. However, they are not completely unchallenged. Klingon Empire: Great power. The Klingons seemed to reform under Martok, but then, after they recovered, they went back to the old ways. They were strong enough that the Romulan Republic opted to maintain neutrality in the Second Klingon-Federation War, rather than ally with the Federation. The Klingons have also improved their diplomacy (somewhat), have conquered the Orions and Gorn, and now offer opportunities for advancement to non-Klingons. Romulan Republic: On the lower end of great power. The Republic has made great strides, and is treated as an equal by the Klingons and Federation. However, they are still rebuilding after the Hobus supernova and the war with the Tal Shiar. They would be a regional power at best if they didn't have their alliance with the Federation and Klingons. Ferengi Alliance: Middle power. Pretty much unchanged. Cardassian Union: Small power, but recovering. The Cardassian Union is now a Federation client state, but has successfully reformed into a mostly stable democracy thanks in no small part to the Garak Administration. Dominion: Hyperpower. Still unrivaled in the Gamma Quadrant. Borg Collective: Superpower. They have recovered to the point of being able to threaten the Federation's core space. However, with the Federation now able to project power into the Delta Quadrant, they are no longer unrivaled there. For perhaps the first time ever, the Borg are facing an enemy that can actually match them strength for strength, and can assimilate Borg technology.
I think the assertion, that the other alpha/beta powers are mono-ethnic states, is not quite correct though def a fair take from the way they are most often presented in show. I seem to remember that in TOS there was examples of the Klingons vying for control of already inhabited planets with the federation, the Gorn are cannonically underneath the Klingons, and the Cardassians very famously held the Bajorans in bondage and then having Human settlers under their jurisdiction. Given the prevalance of sentient life in the star trek universe and the size of the major powers, they all almost certainly contain "client states" with differing species. With different levels of integration from Klingons being paid tribute, to the slave system of the Cardassian Bajorans, to the strict but somewhat hands off hierarchies of the Dominion. The show unfortunately doesn't do a good job of showing that, its alot of context that frankly wasnt all that important to what the shows were trying to do until DS9.
Mono-ethnic in the sense that one single ethnicity/race/species holds most, if not all, power. Think Jim Crow America, Apartheid South Africa, the combined territories of Israel and Palestine. It doesn't mean they don't have other races, it is just that one is at the top and rules over the others. Though one can say that Humans do hold disproportionate influence in the Federation, both politically, culturally, and militarily, the other races still have a say and enjoy all the same rights and opportunities Humans do.
@@JoaoPedro-gc8mw , The reason the Humans have so much more control of the Federation is... The Federation is written by humans, lol. If, say, the Vulcans got to write the novels/movies/shows we watch then there will be a Vulcan bias. Honestly, I just wish the humans who write about the Federation move away from such obvious Human-Centric themes/names for the Federation. :/
Great vid. Nice to see a fellow fan of the Romulans. I loved the concept of the Dominion as basically the anti-Federation. Many species coerced, either through diplomatic or military means, into joining. You also did not mention the self-serving genetic manipulation that the Founders imposed on subject species.
personally I would have maintained the Romulans as a Super or Great Power. Facing down the federation fleet without something to back it up seems very short sighted. as for other galaxies, and evolution of power in the Babylon 5 universe might be interesting
I would say they would be bumped down to great power after the destruction of romulus for a couple decades but climb back up once they get a stable government, something like STO's Romulan Republic, with a new homeworld settled.
I got the distinct impression from some episodes of TNG (stuff like legal precedent on foreign worlds involving Klingon artisans) that the Klingon populace is significantly more metropolitan than the empire itself. As a people they may wield more power than they appear to as a state.
I love love love the romulan empire. They are just so unique compared to some. They tend to fall off the face of the map, then reappear with a veangence
I'm impressed by the length of this video, graphic quality and production values, a lot of time and attention to detail was expended to make this video. All to explain concepts, hierarchy's, races, philosophies, economic systems etc, of things that do not exist. Not to mention all these people in the comment section discussing the history, politics and the military might of powers that occupy certain quadrants of the galaxy that are non existent. This video could be a religion. lol
@@danielyeshe It’s a jump the shark moment. Like how in some TV shows such as 24 a catastrophe will happen and completely change the world order so non-creative writers don’t have to think too much
I think this is a very interesting ranking. However, I do think that the Federation's military power is over-estimated. The Federation is clearly a major industrial power, and they have incredible soft power. However, I would say that the Federation tends to be dangerously pacifistic, and extremely anti-militaristic to its own detriment. It is repeatedly said, after all, that Starfleet is not a military, and many Starfleet ships, like the USS Enterprise D, had families on board, even when those ships were exploring unknown or dangerous regions of space. For example, the Federation suffered a minor loss in the negotiated peace at the end of the Federation-Cardassian War of 2347, a peace that the Cardassians saw as a victory. This peace gave rise to the Maquis, which caused no end to the Federation's problems. Also, the Federation many times nearly lossed the war with the Dominion. In the DS9 episode "In the Pale Moonlight", Sisko stated that they were losing and desperately needed the Romulans to have a chance of victory, and Senator Vreenak confirmed that the Federation was already sending out peace-feelers. Finally, there is the issue of the Prime Directive. The Federation will not colonize or exploit other worlds if there is a risk of violating the Prime Directive. While a morally laudable thing to do, this can effectively stifle the Federation's ability to expand into new planets and exploit the natural resources. Other powers like the Klingons or the Romulans do not have this issue. This could be why the Klingons and the Romulans are able to compete with the Federation. it also raises a troubling scenario: the Romulans and Klingons conquer new worlds and exploit the raw materials, which are then exported to the Federation which then turns those raw materials into consumer goods. The Klingons and Romulans do the dirty work while the Federation gets to claim that it keeps its hands clean. Thus the Federation's major flaw is that it's overly pacifistic and diplomatic nature, combined with the expectations of its citizenry that a high quality of life be.maintained and that hardship be averted, means that there is little tolerance in the Federation for a prolonged conflict. I would also say that a major flaw of the Federation is the incredible power and scope of Starfleet, and the lack of civilian control over Starfleet. Starfleet is in charge of science, exploration, diplomacy, foreign affairs, federal law enforcement, AND defense, which effectively makes it the most powerful institution in the Federation bar none. This means that when Starfleet goes against the civilian government, the civilian government is effectively helpless, and requires aid from other more loyal Starfleet officers. In the movie Star Trek V, for example, major figures in the Admiralty nearly undermined the peace process, and was only stopped by other Starfleet officers led by Captain Kirk. Similarly, in the DS9 episode "Homefront", Admiral Leyton nearly launched a coup, and it was only other Starfleet others led by Captain Sisko that stopped. Similarly, in the movie Star Trek: Insurrection, Admiral Doughery engaged in a covert alliance with the Son'a to exploit the Bak'u, and only Captain Picard was able to stop him. When Starfleet goes wrong, the civilian population tends to be effectively helpless. I would also argue that the Klingon's overall military power is under-estimated. For example, in the TNG episode "Yesterday's Enterprise", the Klingons were waging a war against that era's Federation, and the Klingon's were winning. Similarly, in the 1st season of STD, the Klingon's were winning the war against the Federation in 2256-57. In addition, the Klingon's were able to wage a war against the Klingon-Cardassian war in 2372, against the Federation in 2372-2373, and then were able to contribute to the Dominion War. In fact, when the Breen joined the Dominion during a significant portion of the war, the Klingon's were the ONLY fleet capable of standing against the Breen-Dominion Alliance in DS9 "When It Rains...". It is stated that Martok had 1,500 warships ready for deployment. These were three major wars that the Klingons were part of, and the Klingons were able to absorb the losses and continue to fight on par with the Federation. In my opinion, a good analogy to the Klingons would be the Nomadic Eurasian tribes in the Eurasian steppes that plagued China and Europe in pre-Industrial times. They were politically fragmented and often fighting each other. However, if they were united under a single leader, then they could be incredibly effective in conquering territories and toppling their enemies.
I see it as the inverse. The Federation's military power is often underestimated. They're peaceful, not harmless. The Federation has consistently managed to stand up to and outmaneuver almost every power they've come across. They're unwillingness to violate the territorial rights of species they've encountered in the name of exploiting resources is rarely a major issue as space is vast, and no one is better at searching for new resources than the Federation Starfleet. They don't have to concern themselves with weakening themselves via conflict over resources as they can simple forge ahead and find a different source. As for The Klingon Self Defense Force since they devote vast amounts of their energy, culture, economy, and civilization to military power it's honestly hard to underestimate them. Star Trek VI showed that they devote so much to their military that they couldn't withstand the shock of an ecological disaster and that was almost the end of them. However the issue with the Breen entry into the war was that the Klingon ships could all be immediately modified to resist the weapon, which was a point of technological difference, not one of overall power. The Klingons did not have sufficient power even combined with the Federation to push the fight to Cardassia to end the Dominion War. That required the Romulans. While the Federation may be to restrained in engaging in military engagements, the Klingons martial culture allowed them to be easily manipulated into aggression. The Cardassian-Klingon War and the subsequent Federation-Klingon War were both tools the Founders used to weaken the Cardassians, Federation, and the Klingons and it all hinged on the Klingons blood thirst.
@@LIONtib Also you have to bear in mind that while peaceful. The Federation takes the best technology and research from hundreds of federation members, almost like a nice version of the Borg. They assimilate the tech, just nicely :p So I would disagree the romulans are ahead tech wise, the Federation in theory should have so much more research at its finger tips, true the romulans do not care how they develop technology, but even still, they only have a few planets, vs Hundreds(possibly Thousands of planets, since each member race could have more than 1 planet, ie Vulcan, Andorians etc) As for their ships, while Federation ships may not have been designed for war, they are incredibly powerful vessels. I also find it odd the Federation does not simply outnumber all of the opposition. How big was the Vulcan fleet? Bare in mind on their own, they could stand up to the klingons in Archer's day. I am sure they would not just scrap their fleet without having federation couterparts in place, same with the Andorians etc. The federation should just on sheer numbers be able to vastly overpower any of the other races, after all how many planets and personel does the Federation have vs the others. (well other alpha races, I would say they should be roughly on par with the Dominion numerical wise). I mean granted the storylines would be a bit crap if the federation was the all mighty and powerful force, but in reality, they really would be, at least in the Alpha Quadrant.
That's only partially true. Ironically the Federation has the Borg to thank for this, because they were caught with their pants down when a single Borg cube cut through their fleet at Wolf 359 and damn near assimilated Earth by itself. Alarmed, Federation and Starfleet did start devoting resources towards more dedicated warships, and due to its immense resources, the Federation was not only able to start arming in quantity, such as with the Akira class ships, but are also able to bring their superior tech to bear by producing more versatile ships. For instance the Defiant class ships are smaller than Klingon Birds of Prey but pack just as big a punch. And by the end of the Dominion war the Federation is testing prototypes like the Prometheus which are far more advanced than anything the Klingons or Romulans can field. So that one Borg cube Q threw at the Enterprise started a chain reaction leading to Starfleet becoming much more militaristic in nature, which probably helped save the alpha quadrant's bacon against the Dominion.
I always thought of the federation as a pre-Pearl Harbour USA. They have great wealth and power, but do not want to involve themselves into conflicts and would prefer peace. Their military is "sufficient" for peace time and to focus power on regional threats and small military operations. Diverting ressources to develop a "Scimitar-like" Starship as encouraged by a few "Wardogs" in the Federation is seen a a waste of ressources, better allocated to further develop member worlds and benefit their population. However each time the fuse it lit and something blows up, it ramps it's immense production power up fueled by all that earned peacetime wealth, and it does not take too long that you have a WW2 scenario all over again. Where by only a few years, NO ONE can compete with the amount of power the military can project. And this is where they quickly build the next generation starships... Until victory is achieved and the giant goes to sleep again. Rince and repeat.
You forgot about the Voth. They were clearly ahead of the Dominion and even the Borg. Good thing they were just some throwaway "alien of the week" on some old Voyager episode, because their existence messes up the entire galactic balance of power!
It was like the Dominion War and the Dominion attack on Starfleet was like what happened when the Japanese made that sneak attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7th,1941 that lead the United States to become a major ally and a major power house during WW2.
There are Klingon and Ferengi flags present during Picard's speech to Star Fleet Academy in 2400 (Picard season 2 episode 1). They stand amongst the flags of the Federation's founders, strongly implying that the Klingons and Ferengi are Federation members now.
I love how Garak ends up as the new leader of the Obsidian Order. Whom if I remember right, are the intelligence branch of the Cardassian government, specializing in those things and gathering info by any means necessary, even destroying the reputations of other people like when they tried to frame Station Chief Engineer Miles O'Brien as a Maquis spy and saboteur in a sham trial even by Cardassian standards using a Cardassian spy who was captured - but he might've been from the 1st or 2nd Order, pretending to be an old friend of Miles' from Starfleet Academy. And the choice makes sense due to Garak's history as a former spy master and assassin. He learned from Enabran Tain himself [his distant father] and learned more than a thing or 2 from the Federation with his time on DS9 firsthand of their strengths and weaknesses. Plus with some changes after the Dominion War, the former Tailor and Clothing store owner likely has a wife and children of his own, albeit in secret. But that's debatable since Cardassians see orphans as a liability on the state's resources as a culture and cannot inherit, which is why most of those Cardassian children on Bajor were abandoned after the Federation-Cardassian War. And that later on fueled the fire of the conflict in the Neutral Zone between Cardassian Colonists and the Maquis ex-Federation Colonists. There were likely many orphans by the time those wars and conflicts were over. Garak himself was something of an orphan since he was raised by a single mother and Twin took him under his wing and looked out for him from afar. Even Gul Dukat was always thinking about his half Bajoran daughter Zee'al, who was shot by his subordinate and understudy Da'mar for her disloyalty to her father for choosing Bajor and essentially the Federation over him and the Cardassian Empire as the Dominion were being pushed out of Bajoran space by the alliance of Klingon and Federation ships (still before the Romulans became involved thanks to some manipulation from Captain Sisko, albeit ashamedly, and Garak working together). And if Garak was openly admitting to being the son of Tain that might cause a conflict. Anyway, I'm glad that he could get a win and that finally after probably almost like 15+ years in exile [essentially punished by his father for looking like he was going soft giving some rations to starving Bajoran kids], he was able to go home and stay. And basically took up his Pop's old job. I also hope his anxiety issues have gotten better, if not I also also hope he stayed in contact with Ezri Dax, his one time therapist and latest friend on DS9 lol.
@@biegendesrohr9550 Always. Even in the future where people can make clothing instantly using technology. You always need a good tailor to fix things up 😁😏😉👍🏾. (He definitely carries something like a sonic knife on him though. Which is more probably a sewing tool, but could easily sever tendons and cut jugulars if he needed something in an emergency or needed to get info quick 😵😖🪡🧵). And hello hello from the US 👋🏾😄. Lol
On the contrary to your Federation analysis, I would say the Federation has extremely limited power projection capabilities in 2370. Its fleet of armed science vessels, patrol ships and merchant cruisers gets completely rolled every time it meets serious opposition. The Federation wins wars through sheer numbers and the weight of firepower that it provides, and even then many of its victories are won due to a single ship or captain finding and exploiting a critical weakness in their enemy's strategy, or omnipotent intervention as happened in the Dominion War. In a straight fight with even numbers against a militarized faction with vessels on an equal scale, the Federation loses, badly. The Federation's diverse society is also an exploitable weakness. Even on planets that have long been members of the Federation there are likely citizens who view independence as a viability. These assets can be exploited by an enemy to destabilize the Federation from within. Its tricky to fight an organized war on one front and an insurgency on the other. This wouldn't work among the other factions of the galaxy as while civil conflicts are common they are primarily over the desire for power rather than a desire for independence. An outside attacker would end up unifying the waring factions under the goal of defending their species rather than the faction itself.
The reason the federation didn't have a big stonking military is they didn't need one. There golden age fleet was enough to defeat the cardassians hard enough for the military government to fall, whilst leaving enough force in reserve to stop anyone other powers risking direct military involvement. This small military left them with enough resources to build an unmatched economic, scientific and diplomatic power base that would solve most problems on its own or be converted into kerb stomping military might, and back when things get serious.
Really good breakdown! Yeah I wish picard would give us more details on the state of the universe. Star Trek right now is so uni-foused. A challenging recommendation would be the different governments from a show called Revolution. Only lasted 2 seasons but it had very original content
I think a good long hard look at the Battlestar Galactica reboot universe could be fun! Take a look that the ships both factions have in BSG:Deadlock coud be fun! And you could rank them as well, however that may look
The fact that the Romulan star Empire couldn't evacuate its own capitol and recover from the list of that system, is pretty clear evidence that it was only ever a Regional power.
The only place that happens is in the tv show Picard. In all other tv shows, movies, books and computer games the Romulan Star Empire is huge .... that's why it's called a 'Star Empire', lol.
If it was only a regional power then their entry into the Dominion war wouldn't have tipped the balance. I'd argue that, with the loss of the Tal Shiar and combat losses in the war overall, this is what caused them to lose their dominant power status. Also, it depends on how quickly their world was destroyed, a planet is huge in terms of numbers (billions of lives) and evacuation will always take time if your ships are located in various places throughout the quadrant. People forget that travel and organisation (even within the quadrant) takes time, and you'd need a huge fleet to evacuate a planet (even then it would take time). Also, the loss of a capital city would be almost impossible for any power to recover from, it's their seat of government, heart of their economy and almost all bureaucracy runs through it. The last may not seem important, but all states run on bureaucracy, without it they fall apart.
@@AeneasGemini I totally agree with your first point about the Romulans. However the rest I feel might be wrong. They first found out the Romulan star would go nova in 2380 and it would take about seven years before it blew (Spock tried his red matter plan in 2387). That's more than enough time to evac everyone considering the huge amount of resources of the Empire. They never needed Starfleets help at all. As for the loss of their capitol world, although it would for a short time weaken them, it wouldn't be an incident that would destroy them as 'Picard' portrays. They would simply move the capitol to another of their worlds. They would have evac'ed all the leaders anyway so really it isn't a big deal at all. As people keep pointing out, if America lost Washington DC they would simply rebuild their capitol in another city in the USA, it wouldn't destroy the country.
I thought the Federation had some serious political troubbels over the years... And the power of the Federation and their expanding nature will also draw time and again enemies against them, so that has also some drawbacks. If even the Klingons and Romulans for times work together to harm you, maybe that is not the best thing.
On the other hand - concern about the encroaching Federation is a sincere estimation of their power from in-universe sources who presumably know what they are worried about.
from the Dominion's perspective the Breens replaced the Cardassians so it's likely there is not much of a difference in terms of power. If the Breen would be significant weaker there would be no point in making an alliance, if they would be significant stronger they might turn out to be unreliable. at least they must have a force big enough to hold the territory the Dominion promised them to be rewareded with after the victory.
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
Ferengi do well either way.
Jadzia: And as the 34th Rule of Acquisition states: "Peace is good for business."
Quark: That's the 35th Rule.
Jadzia: Oh, you're right. What's the 34th?
Quark: "War is good for business." It's easy to get them confused. (DS9: "Destiny.")
But 'only from a distance, the closer to the front lines, the less profitable it gets'.
i prefer Rule #19
Satisfaction is not guaranteed.
Ah yes, business is good for business
@@cericat The riskier the road, the greater the profit. Rule of acquisition 62
Even the reforms that Rom makes in DS9 probably won't effect the ferengi alliance that much, they are probably the wisest species.
I’ve read a book where a Klingon engineer saw every technical problem as a foe to be defeated. Everyone thought he was weird, but I think he was applying the traditional Klingon way of thinking to other areas besides combat.
And DS9 had that Klingon lawyer who saw the courtroom as his battlefield
There was a klingon scientist that battled against the forces of ignorance. And brought back an honorable hoard of knowledge to the empire
@John Grigg on my honor, we will NOT be in the red!
Reminds me of The Book of Five Rings by the famous samurai Miyamoto Musashi
I think we don't give the Klingons enough credit. We mostly see the ones in power, the highest ranking nobles who would have a reputation to uphold in a culture that views fighting skills as the highest to achieve an death in battle as the ultimate goal (much like with vikings and their religion). But that doesn't mean all layers of Klingon society would work that way. The Klingons were technologically ahead of the UFP for a very long time. Even with their head start, that's not something that just happens.
European nobles tended to spent a lot of time practicing fighting skills and leading their forces into battle but that still was only a small part of the population. They didn't bother much with with matters that didn't directly affect the dynasty. Scientific endeavors were often an indulgence as such things take up a lot of time they often needed for politics and military operations. That doesn't mean others people didn't do such things (we know they happened after all). We rarely get to see the common Klingon. Even Worf was of a high ranking noble house and held much the same attitude as the high council members. Prestige in those circles is counted in battle honors and fighting skills. Not in research, trade, etc. Even Quarks ex-wife Grilka was high enough up the food chain to get an audience with the high council. Not too many people these days would get the opportunity to personally plead their case in front of the head of state and the entire cabinet. That takes a lot of power and influence. So again, not a common Klingon. There would be plenty of farmers, workers, scientists. engineers, etc. in Klingon society. We just never get to see them.
@@roepi there was an episode of ENT where a Klingon lawyer told Archer that it wasn’t always like that. His father was a teacher, which used to be a respected profession. It was the warrior caste gradually taking over Klingon society that changed things
I love this. In principle the Klingons are the paper tiger and the Romulans are the real threat, but in TNG the Romulans are the ones who back down, in Selma’s blockade and in the invasion of Vulcan, but in DS9 the Klingons first go to actual war with the Federation for two episodes before they do the lion’s share of the killing and dying in the Dominion War. The Klingons’ biggest weakness on screen is their willingness to take casualties.
Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. Although the invasion of Vulcan was doomed anyway. When your invasion force for a planet is about the size of the LAPD, you'll have issues.
@@QaiannaAnd, while the Tal Shiar can be ruthless, they are nowhere near the ruthlessness of the LAPD.
The Romulans are the true paper tiger. The Dominion war showed that. The Rommualns build large and powerful ships, but they can't build many, the Rommulan Star Empire has a small population. The Romulans pose the greatest threat to thr Federation, because they are relatively close to the core of Federation space. The Romulans threat has always been a surprise decapitation strike . Any war with the Federation will be lost if it lasts more than a few months. The Romulans know this.
The important thing here is how instrumental DS9 is in fleshing out so much of the universe. Far and away the best Trek series.
If you like in-depth world building DS9 is best. If you like sharp & creative storytelling, TNG is best. It just depends on what you like
@@evandavid9087 I like both TNG and DS9, both are my favourite Star Trek but TNG edges it out for me because of its lighter, bright tone about the future, which is what Star Trek was supposed to be all about, DS9 went a bit too dark, war focused and with a bit too much action, which at the time, pulled a lot of viewers off it.
But I will give DS9 some credit, it did great of the script writing and story telling being continues over all the episodes of DS9, whereas TNG was very episodic, but that's mostly because of being a product of the time, things started to change in the 90's when it came to tv series and how they told a story.
@@paul1979uk2000 The difference between the two really all hinges around the death of Gene Roddenberry. If he was still alive when DS9 was pitched and written, it would have been insufferably WORSE than... whichever series you don't like most. [TV series - not just Star Trek.] Not being allowed to write conflict between main characters (Gene's rule) was a HUGE crutch for TNG writers. DS9 clearly wasn't bound by such nonsense and the quality of the material shows. DS9 - Best ST ever.
@@sunspot478They also ended up having different formats. TNG is essentially a collection of science fiction short stories, most episodes being self-contained and based around one strong "what if?" idea. By contrast, DS9 is closer to a space opera novel or series of novels, with many long arcs running simultaneously across multiple episodes and indeed multiple seasons.
@@KaitainCPS I can agree with that.
The Breen are by far the most underrated civilization in star trek. I would of loved to see more of them and there culture
where
And also what they look like....
Honestly I don’t, I think leaving them as an unknown, perhaps in a stand-alone episode here or there would be best, explaining anything more then we already know about the Breen would ruin them thematically. Their mystery is what makes them such a cool species
For sure
Be careful what you wish for😅 now we have std!
I think the Tholian Assembly deserves some consideration, the Dominion was wary enough of them to negotiate a treaty to keep them out of the war.
The Dominion doesn't overlook diplomacy _anywhere_ and had enough to work on. They put off for later every Alpha/Beta Quadrant power they could at any given time.
Thank you! Really underused in the franchise, but they've always been talked about like they mattered.
The Tholians are a very special case. Hyper-isolationist xenophobes with a physiology and techbase that is fundamentally incompatible with basically everyone else's. You basically have to leave them alone, or you end up dealing with a giant monkeywrench that can't be reasoned with because it hates everything that's not Tholian.
that's because the breen didn't want to fight on TWO fronts.
Agree Tholians should get more "love"!
The map where the Romulan Star Empire is smaller looking than the Klingons and Federation is a simple case of Tall vs Wide.
Any Stellaris player knows a well run Tall empire can be the equal of the entire rest of the galaxy in basically ALL ways, with a little luck and good planning. Space is BIG. you don't need thousands of systems to compete on a galactic scale, you just need to DO more with what you have,
also that would explian why hobu crippled them. it owuld be like a tall player losing there core systems
@@anamarvelo My exact thoughts. The romulans whilst territory and population-wise smaller were perhaps the most efficient power. That would explain why they are able to emerge in such a strong position after a century of isolation and limited expansion but also why the loss of their core worlds crippled them so much in a way it wouldn't the others (with the likely exception of the klingons which are so inefficient and overextended any disruption seems to put them on the verge of collapse). That being said, the Romulan Free State seems still capable of projecting power in a significant way even if not a true rival to a strong federation.
@@Jacques_a_dit - the Klingons had their hobus moment when Praxus exploded i suppose. They didn't lose their homeworld but losing a moon and the tidal consequences would certainly have devastated Qo'nos.
@@nagillim7915 I'd need to rewatch the film again, but I remember the loss of the moon having caused them a big enough projected economic setback that they were basically begging the Federation for help so the Empire wouldn't collapse.
@@nagillim7915 it was such a calamity that the Klingons were going to be extinct within a few years unless Federation helped them out and negotiate for peace.
I see this is becoming a new series on ranking fictional nations, then maybe throw in Fallout, Babylon 5, Eldar Scrolls, & others.
Yes!! That would be amazing
What about Stellaris S1 and S2 ?
I mean they are right there with butt load of info on them to make a similar video to this but bigger
Ooh the Elder scrolls would be awesome
Fallout rankings would be sick
I'd love to see a Stargate one. I mean if you go through the whole series the Tau'ri go from one of the weakest powers that doesn't even know about life outside of their world to possibly the dominant power in multiple galaxies. I also love how someone once used the fact that the Tau'ri get farther in dealing with things like the Wraith as a point in an essay on how the Ancient civilization actually wasn't that great and were kind of terrible in some ways.
The federation used to be much more weak when it came to the military. They were so peaceful that at first they had rather minor weaponry and no real warships. As the seasons went by and the series, as the borg became more of a problem and then the dominion, the federation started focusing more and more on dedicated warships and general aspects of warfare, and are now a much greater power.
I personally find Star Trek more interesting when the high ideals and ideology of Starfleet gets punched in the face by realpolitik and forced to compromise to ensure not only their own identity, but their own survival.
Bear in mind that Starfleet's exploratory ships, if forced to fight, can punch well above their weight.
Starfleet ships: "I came here to scan space anomalies and kick ass, and if you don't shut the fuck up and let me do the former, it's gonna be _your_ ass I'm kicking."
They really just wanna measure neutron star spin, man.
@@danieljames1868 They speak softly but carry a big stick.
Starfleet and the Federation were dedicated to the pursuit of peace and knowledge, and their ships reflected this being one that is home to hundreds of families, with the Galaxy class having unprecedented multi-role capabilities, with a many of its armaments being for defensive purposes. Despite this, the Galaxy class was on-par with the Romulan's D'deridex starship - a purpose built warship with their most advanced weapon systems. It goes to show, if the Federation were to ever utilise its hundreds of member species' technical knowhow and resources, like they did for the Borg, they would become unmatched. This perhaps explains why the Terran Empire was able to practically takeover half the galaxy and defeat the Borg outright.
The Borg have no competition. Thanks to assimilation, they are always able to rebuild the empire at a pace unattainable for other powers.
Thus, the decline in their position in the galactic arena is temporary.
True, but the Borg don't innovate or invent. They steal via assimilation, and that has its own drawbacks.
Species 8472: am i a joke to you?
The borg have evolved multiple times. Dating back 2-3 million years or more to now.
It's assumed they were wiped out, but they return again and again.
So true they could collapse but in a million years they will resurface. It's what makes them so terrifying. You defeat them if that even happens. And if you do, in a million years, you might not be around to stop them. The Galaxy can go back to a less advanced state. While the borg are the same.
Highly detailed Spoilers for Picard:
No, but also yes.
The problem with the borg is Stagnation. They dont seem generally capable of new advancements outside assimilation. So if anyone finds a way to counter them(which has happened *ahem Species 8472/The Undine *ahem*) they have very little ability to do anything about it. On top of that the more we know about the borg the more it seems like they are really bad at force alottment. In Voyager it was shown they had millions of borg cubes in one area of space(borg space). If they had arrayed even 10 percent of that against the federation they would have won. hell 5 percent of that would have gotten them total dominance in a non-federation sector of the alpha quadrant(they would have taken out the ferengi or the cardassians easily). The borg have always been really bad at threat assessment, sending 1 or 5 cubes against entire fleets expecting their adaptable shields to just win the day(and ignoring obvious tactics like teleporting drones right into enemy bridges and engine rooms when their shields were down)
I should say that i am saying this as someone who really likes the borg. I think the borg should really be able to win any war they go into easily. The technology and organization they have means they should realistically be able to wipe out any nation they go up against including the federation if they were operated realistically. but plot dumbness stifles them at every turn. The 2 Dominant powers in the star trek universe should be the federation and the borg and the federation should really be like...one area of the alpha quadrant barely able to hold back borg advancements by continually out researching them in anti borg technology. while the borg should be able to just bulldozer over basically anything not purpose built to fight them. But that would make for a boring story.
"Romulan miscalculations in their foreign policy have resulted in some of the biggest geopolitical blunders in history."
Isn't one of these blunders the formation of the Federation itself? IIRC they tried to start a war between humans, Andorians and Tellarites (I think?), but screwed up and led to the Federation forming. Well done there, Rommies
Lmao woops
Or the creation of the Borg.. I wonder if eventually we will find out that Romulans are Species 001 Their creation of AI.. is what became the Borg.. hence their absolute hatred for what they did.
yep. because they attacked the Coalition of Planets... which evolved into the Federation.
Yeah. The Romulans were afraid of the powers in the Alpha quadrant as they were all decently strong and the resources in this area of space are better than in most other regions of the galaxy. Not to mention it included their old foe the Vulcans. As shown in the last season of Enterprise they became so afraid of how the humans had started dialogue between the races and quelling centuries long grudges that they used their stealth tech to try and restart conflict between races only to have the humans use this to further unite them into the Coalition. Basically the Rommies were so afraid of their enemies uniting that they attacked them all and caused them to unite to fight them.
Also if you have not read the novels that were written based on ideas for the next three seasons of Enterprise that were cancelled. This leads to the Romulans declaring war on the Humans in hopes of crushing them and stopping them from furthering the Coalition of Planets... only for the Humans to win the deciding battle with the help of the other races and even a few Klingon outcasts looking to reclaim some honor in battle and then using said victory to get the other powers that took part, except the Klingons, to untie into the Federation. Its also the fact that the Romulans get so badly beaten in this war that they started that leads to them to agree to the Neutral Zone and cease all their black ops and other antagonistic behavior they had been performing in the Alpha quadrant for centuries before.
@@Nostripe361 Assuming this is canon (or closely resembles canon), it _really_ argues against the Romulans being any real peer of the Federation, since Terra by itself was a peer during that war, the other founding states were also peers, and add them all together with their tendency to peacefully bring in new members, and its hard to see how the Romulans came anywhere near keeping up.
Then again, we have the example of "Yesterday's Enterprise."
19:00 There is a TOS novel where the Klingons and Federation are in a competition for control of a planet under the peace imposed by the Organians. The contest is farming and one of the Klingon farmers says that at the end of the day if his fields are free of blight then he has won and brought honor to Empire, his House and himself.
Then there’s cases in Enterprise and Deep Space 9 that lawyers view themselves as warriors fighting on a different battlefield. This leads me to believe there is more to the Klingon Empire than just warfare.
@@MandalorV7 Or at least, warfare is simply a term they use to define themselves against struggle.
How Much For Just The Planet? Is the books name.
@@utubrGaming I tend to agree. I think we 'see' only the warlike side of the Klingon empire due to its aggressive foreign policy, but honor and struggle are variously defined. Almost like the term jihad means struggle and can mean either violent warfare or internal struggle for reform.
@@MandalorV7 Yes, according to Enterprise that is how Klingon society once viewed all tasks/jobs - there was "honor" to be found in many places, but the military effectively took control of their society, extolling their own virtues while aggressively downplaying all others.
19:30 Arguably that was the original Kilingon ethos and what allowed them to become a great power in the first place. Whether you were a warrior fighting enemy warriors, a scientist fighting ignorance or a janitor fighting dirt there was honor in all of it, with time it degraded until only the path of the warrior had honor.
That's the only possible explanation on how the Klingon Empire could become so powerful in the first place. You can be a good fighter all you want, but without technology you can't really compete against a starship. Klingon must have had plenty of very intelligent and dedicated scientists to get where they are during the narrated events.
This was discussed a couple of times in Enterprise.
In the early 22nd century (PR !maybe late 21st), The Military Culture became the strongest.
So, say 200 years of cultural zeitgeist to overcome.
I'd love to hear how a few more powers rank on this chart, namely: the Tholian Assembly, the Gorn Hegemony, the Sheliak Corporate, the Orions, and a number of Delta quadrant powers like the Krenim, Malon, Hirogen, Kazon, and Vidiian. It would also be interesting to speculate how the Iconians would have ranked at their height.
Most would likely be regional powers today. Many of these are opponents from the early days of the Federation, and their home worlds, while still independent, may well be within Federation Space today.
This shows an important trend. When the Federation was small, the Klingon Empire seemed huge and a great power in comparrison. Now, with the Federation having grown huge, even the the Klingons have had some development, they are still reduced to a regional power simply becasue the scope of the space the Federation interacts with has become so much larger!
I also would love to see the Kzintis, Lyran Democratic Republic, Lyran Empire, Wyn Star Cluster, and ISC.
ISC was very similar to the Federation in terms of government. It was also made up of many different races like the Federation. I would have loved to have seen a war between the Federation vs ISC, one on one to see who would actually win.
As I posted in another comment, Sheliak might be top 4 in the region, considering how large their territory is.
Iconians were a guaranteed hyperbole in their day I would say. The gateways were a power projection mechanism on part with borg transwarp conduits.
Some of your mentions are a bit niche but others definitely couldve been added to the list with detail.
Postulate: Romulan Star Empire would have conquered The Federation if they could have.
Fact: Cloaking devices are a massive strategic advantage.
Therefore, with Starfleet signing the Treaty of Algeron, The Federation was comfortable enough with their ability to overpower the Romulans to the point of agreeing to not research this relatively common military boon. The Romulan Star Empire needed cloaking technology to be remotely at parity with Starfleet come TNG/DS9.
Your Romulan bias was very, very real.
And he disregarded the fact that the Klingon's have the very same cloaking technology, and were quite adept at using it. And I am fairly certain the Klingon Empire was bigger than the Romulan Star Empire, and their forces bore a massive chunk of the fighting against the Dominion, especially when the Breen weapon came into play.
The Romulans relied on subterfuge and infiltration rather than brute strength because they were militarily weaker than the Federation. They managed a draw against 22nd century Feds. The Klingons had fought the 23rd century Feds to a near standstill, although they were eventually driven out. And the Klingons weren't entirely static on technology. They did innovate and make newer and more powerful warships like the D6, D7, Vorcha, and Neghvar warships, and their birds of prey went through many different models, even retiring ships due to defective plasma coil designs. They just weren't as good at it as the Federation was.
The Klingon's were lacking on medical tech not because they couldn't do it, but it was a cultural bias where they believed that a Klingon should either overcome their wounds by their own strength or perish and go to Stovokor to join the honored dead.
Also remember in the episode where Troi infiltrated the Romulans. The Romulan Commander said "The Federation is neither weak nor stupid." He also said they would not be able to sneak through Federation territory undetected. Also other than Cloaks the Romulan Empire is not shown to be ahead of the Federation in any way.
yes, this. I believe the Federation does not pursue cloaking for 2 reasons. 1. Internally and Externally they want to show they have nothing to hide, they aren't creeping on their neighbors, and starfleet is not spying on their own citizens. 2. more directly because of the treaty they don't want to provoke a conflict with the Romulans and/or Klingons. However, if push came to shove, I think the Federation would be willing to take off the kid gloves and stop fighting with one hand tied behind their back. The Romulans greatest strength was always its secrecy. They didn't let outsiders see their true strength or internal politics, when they did interact with other powers, they always show their best ships so it looks like those are the most common ship the Romulans have. Once Romulus collapses I think their big show of strength is gone, they are still very capable but no longer seem to be a major threat for someone like the Federation.
@@TheCsel Except the Romulans had a monstrously big fleet of ships stronger than the D'deridex to face the Federation in that fight over the robot homeworld. Starfleet had to bring its A+++ game to make them stand down.
My perception of the cloaking device is that it turns your spaceship into the space equivalent of a submarine. Submarines are good for many things and can inflict devastating losses, but they are bad at conquest. In a siege, you have to just lie there to deal and absorb punishment. Cloaked ships make great raiders (what the Romulans seem to use them for) and the Klingons use them to create the honorable skirmishes with small forces they love. But for an invasion armada, not so much. Also, the Federation favors Diplomacy, and others knowing you have cloaking technology is likely to make them very suspicious.
I feel like you're selling the Dominion short, they fought the dominion war with only the forces they had stranded in the alpha quadrant and their client states and seriously came close to victory. The loss of their fleet in the wormhole during the second battle of DS9 was definitely a huge blow, but even with reform, I doubt the Dominion has any real competition in their own quadrant.
He literally labelled them as the highest classification, how was he selling them short?
@@ProjectEkerTest33 he downgraded them to a superpower from a hyperpower post hypothetical reform.
I think the humiliation of the Dominion’s defeat would so damage the Founders’ religion that the structure wouldn’t be able to hold. The only way it would be able to is if the bulk of the population, especially the Jem’Hadar, were so isolated from information that they wouldn’t know what happened in the war. If the Jem’Hadar rebel the Dominion is toast.
Actually, I think there are relatively minor events in DS9 that show serious cracks in Dominion society. Lack of respect between the Vorta and Jem'hadar, growing sense of Founder fallibility, the prospect of Jem'hadar being freed from Ketricel-white. All of that sounds like kindling and Odo's new ideas about rights and respect for solids sounds like a spark for an inferno. Odo was certain to bring a new outlook and it probably wouldn't convince everyone in the great link. Within the Gamma quadrant, the Dominion would still be unrivaled, but resistance would seem more possible if they knew that there was a whole quadrant out there that fought them off. Yes, materially, the Dominion was in good shape, but politically, socially and reputationally the Dominion would almost certainly have lost a step or two.
I got the impression that the Dominion War was basically a minor border skirmish for them, and they probably lost more ships to the wormhole aliens than the Federation and its allies. I assume they probably have a fairly good handle on the spread of information and since only Vorta and Jem'hadar knew about what happened and how they are both loyal to the Founders then they could have put a fast gag order out, and if not, well they are still a minority and the Founders could have purged them easily.
I'm pretty sure that the problems with the issues with Vorta and the Jem'hadar probably came about because of the footing the Dominion found itself on during the war and would probably die out relatively soon, keep in mind that Jem'hadar don't live very long. I don't know remember how much of other Dominion races show up, but I kinda got the impression that they basically gave all of their subjects a list of do's and don'ts and then left them alone as long as they kept following the rules. Its entirely possible that the only reason the Dominion ships so poorly (for degrees of 'poorly') because the full tech base of the Dominion was not involved. We do not even know if the ships used were their most powerful vessels available, much less how close they were to the Dominion's version of cutting technology.
Putting it another way, it might have been similar some of Rome's military expedition disasters, like the Battle of Teutoburg Forest or the Battle of Carrhae. Sure they were terrible for Rome, but they didn't have any significant impact.
For the romulans. It's stated the romulan neutral zone stopped being a thing and that for the most part the star empire has fractured. There is a romulan "free" state but it's clear it doesn't control all of former romulan territory and that we simply don't know the full extent to the devastation the former empire has endured
Also Borg activity increased on their border
@@Izznogood76 I don't recall that bit but it wouldn't surprise me if the borg managed to recover some what from the catastrophic blow Voyager gave them
I imagine it being analogous to DC being destroyed and a number of regional blocks forming. Like the the Republics of Texas, California, Cascadia, the Great Lakes, etc. With smaller powers, like the State of Deseret, either becoming isolationist or forming trading partnerships with their regional neighbors. Some less populous regions would be largely forgotten about and left to their own devices. Around the well established core worlds (analogous to the Northeast Megalopolis) there would just be a new capital selected.
The balance of power between the old core and the break away regions would be interesting to see. With the core worlds trying to reintegrate their former holdings any way they can. Be it diplomatically, economically, or militarily and the breakaways developing their own independent cultures.
@@frankb3347 - i also think we see enough internal hostility within the existing Romulan power structures during TNG that a fragmentation of some kind would be likely. The Tal'Shiar vs the Romulan Navy would be a likely fault line that was foreshadowed throughout TNG. Cut off the head that keeps the two on the same side and, well, open conflict seems likely.
I do have a pet theory that the anti-time future Q creates in All Good Things is also one in which Romulus was destroyed, and that in that reality the Federation does succeed with its evacuation plan, leading to their war with the Klingons. I'm actually surprised that with the star empire weakened the Klingons haven't got involved. Maybe they were hurt worse by the Dominion War than section 31 predicted. They have a long open border with the Romulans and yet none of the Great Houses felt like doing a bit if annexing? 🤔
@@shadewolf0075 the borg cube in Picard season 1 is located in Romulan space
I love how you called [REDACTED] an unknown operative, great nod to [REDACTED] and their operations in the [REDACTED]
I think redacted is Discord, My Little Pony and Equestria.
@@Marylandbrony na, that would be Q
I don't feel any comment can survive!
I personally think this comment is a load of [REDACTED]
This was absurdly well thought out. I'm legit impressed.
I largely agree with your assessment. I think maybe you sell the Breen a bit short. They are spoken of with fear and respect during the Dominion war, and their entrance to the conflict was considered a tipping point at the time. They quickly displaced the Cardassians as favoured Dominion allies.
When it came to Federation military, what I think many forgot was that the Starfleet "no dedicated warship" policy work both way. In much the same way as very few Federation starship are true warship, very few Federation starship are not warship either. The fact they didn't separate peacekeeping fleet and military fleet give them massive flexibility. A small group of Miranda and Excelsior class cruisers can maintain logistic to outlying colonies as effectively as intercepting Klingon raiders intruding into those sectors, then return to logistic operation as soon as the Klingon were driven away.
Also, I almost forgot that part where "unknown" individual talk about the post war power. That make one fan theory that Hobus supernova is either manipulated or even created entirely by an "unidentified" rogue organization within Federation make some sense, especially with their the-end-justified-the-mean method.
According to the Extended Star Trek Universe created by Star Trek Online, which has all the force of every other bit of Beta content, it was the Iconians that destroyed Romulus.
maybe it was by another entirely unknown species, since it happened elsewhere too
I wouldn't say the Federation is 'unwilling' to develop technology that the Romulans have, the Treaty of Algeron specifically forbids the Federation from developing cloaking devices and its shown that if they wanted to, they could.
From what I remember, their attempts to make their own version in violation were significantly better than the Romulan version.
@@cp1cupcake The Phase Cloak, was technically better as the ship could not be damaged by weapons while under cloak. Whereas Klingons and Romulans, generally, are more vulnerable to damage while cloaked.
Given enough advancements it would be a gamechanging tech. Both offensively and defensively. Though knowing its the feds they would pile on the defensive bonuses.
Yes, it is shown that if the Federation _wanted_ to develop "forbidden" technologies, then they still could or still would anyways.
But the point is that the Federation _shouldn't want_ to develop these techs anyhow. Not because of a legal or technical restriction, but because of a lofty arrogant moral one.
... So they're unwilling to develop the technology
The only one that I seriously disagree with is the 2400 Dominion. There's really absolutely no reason to believe or suggest that Dominion has lost any ability or influence within the Gamma quadrant. Even if they implemented reforms suggested by Odo, their span and reach is such that they are fundamentally untouchable in terms of scope. To the best of our knowledge they remain the only major political force in the Gamma Quadrant and I don't see that there would be any reason to rank them lower than top tier. Just because a cat sheathes its claws doesn't mean that it doesn't have them.
Definitely, and consider that the Dominion had been a stable power for over 2000 years before contact with the Alpha Quadrant. Surely it wasn't the first time that the Dominion's forces had lost a regional war against a foreign power before. Also, the fact that the Dominion was able to do so much damage with only a limited amount of forces present in the Alpha and Beta quadrants and that the Allies were unable to do any meaningful damage to the Dominion within its own native territories, there would be little motivation for them to undergo radical change that would lead to instability or a loosening of their ancient tried and true governing system.
Another thing to consider is that the Dominion's losses were all in the scope of ultimately expendable, or at least replaceable, military assets. Sure, their allies suffered casualties and their relations with the Dominion soured, but it's not like the Cardassians could share their grievances and spread the message of dissatisfaction to any of the other Dominion client states. Hell, for all the species subjugated under the Dominion in the actual Gamma quadrant, they would've went on with their lives with the greatest change the War caused being a temporary increase in taxes or tribute or whatever, and even then likely not to a degree that it would become an issue, due to the vast number of worlds that the Dominion would be able to draw their resources from. They have been expanding their empire for again, over 2000 years, and given how much the Federation is capable of expanding in just a few centuries with several wars sprinkled in between, that's not something to underestimate.
The Dominion would have total information control over what anyone in the Gamma quadrant would hear about the war. There would be no reason for their protectorates and vassals to suspect that there was going to be any chance of major change in the Dominion due to the war. They would have no reason to protest the cost of lives and resources of the war, since A: The Dominion uses Jem Hadar and local Alpha and Beta quadrant allied species for its troops, not drawing from any of its client races on their side of the wormhole, and B: even if they wanted to tax their territories a lot more to aid in the war effort, the limited size and highly contestable nature of the Bajoran wormhole means that it would be impractical, as only so much supplies and reinforcements could arrive at any given time. Also, the forces they had sent to fight the war could've only been a small fraction of their total military force, as they would have so much territory in the Gamma quadrant and besides for the wormhole space limit, it's not as if they could just move a million ships from across an entire quadrant in a week or something. Warp speed has set limits.
@@fadelsukoco3092 I think that with the exception of the bioweapon deployed against the Founders, they largely considered their war in the Alpha quadrant in much the same way that the British considered the War of 1812. It was kinda of a side show, and it was happening Over There, without much effect on Here.
That being said, I'm guessing it was the first major setback they'd experienced in quite some time. As you said, they're very old. They've been growing for so long that it's probably been a very long time since they'd run into anyone who could give them a hard time. They'd been gobbling up individual worlds and systems, maybe small interstellar nations, but the overall impression was that there just wasn't anything close to even Klingon Empire size a stone's throw from their ever-expanding territory.
For client worlds that were dissatisfied with the arrangement, knowing that there was an alliance on the other side of the galaxy that drove back the Dominion probably wouldn't help them out that much, since it took basically the three most powerful nations in the Alpha quadrant teaming up to defeat a Dominion expeditionary force and their two allies of also-rans.
The Dominion might implement a few reforms, between the food for thought that the war in the Alpha Quadrant gave them and whatever influence Odo might have. But their overall power is unlikely to wane.
@@fadelsukoco3092 the dominion is overrated, they need the help of alpha quadrant traitors like the cardashians to do damage.
Not to mention the War didn't remove their industrial capacity, in fact it didn't even include it, all of their territory and the value it can use from it. They had no reason to really reform, or reform in a way that actually would weaken Founder Control.
I think if anything Odo's influence might push them towards a more Federation style view. Still dominated by the Founders but with more of a focus on mutual benefit holding it together rather than military domination (despite the name). Still a Hyperpower but less oppressive.
18:46 I have always loved this scene. Perhaps in part because I like to garden vegetables. But it always struck a chord that the warrior race would help the farmers because the enemy at that very moment, was "time". Quite poetic.
17:35: “Obviously, whoever this man was, I can’t seem to find any record of him.”
I get it.
The Dominion war had the fighting part cut off from the Hyper power state for a large part of it, and yet showed they were able to fight almost everyone. Their own power base wasn't touched. Even with reforms, I doubt that they have somehow gotten weaker. Their biggest issue was that their technology seemed to stagnate. Reform, and trusting member states more, could solve that.
The Federation is not only a super power on its it's own but a hyper power with alliances makes me happy.
apes together strong
I think you're underestimating the Klingons. In all the alternate timelines, the Klingons are kicking ass. In "Yesterday's Enterprise," the Klingons are winning a long term war against the Federation. In "All Good Things," the Klingons conquered the Romulans. In "The Visitor," the Klingons drove the Federation away from Bajor and Cardassia.
Also, the Klingons talk about honor a lot but the Klingons who rise to power are quite practical and opportunistic. For example, the Duras were the most powerful house during TNG, not because they were honorable but because they were rich and shrewd political players.
As for the Borg, they had trillions of drones and millions of ships at Unimatrix Zero. They would have to suffer unimaginable damage to fall to a regional power.
The way I see it, if a war between the Federation and the Klingons erupts, it would most likely go the way of Russia's "special military operation" in Ukraine. Klingons would initially make gains into Federation space with whatever Federation forces near the Klingon border at the time conducting delaying actions and as time goes on the situation for the Klingons would only get worse as Klingon logistics strain, Federation ships start arriving from shipyards and other sectors, and partisan actions behind Klingon lines would eventually force the Klingons to the negotiations table. Also, the House of Duras and the house/clan system is a serious problem not a benefit for the Klingon Empire.
@@MarcusMaxentius the Communists (Federation) only need to destabilize the Klingon government, cause infighting or a revolution. By the way that was how the German Empire got rid of the Russian Empire in World War I.
Someone should do the same again right now.
The shows and movies build up the Klingons beyond any reasonable capabilities for a polity like theirs to raise the stakes. The alanysis in this video is fundementally correct, in no realistic way can the Klingons hope to defeat the federation is a war and it is only the pop culture misunderstanding of where military power comes from (and it's not "warrior culture") which allows the Klingons to be treated as a valid threat. In reality, regardless of what "canon" might be, the mechanics of the Universe and the realities of warfare, politics, and economics mean that the Federation is destined to dominate the Beta quadrant.
I have to agree, the Klingons in the 2370 are a superpower they fought the federation an the Cardassians at the same time a regional power couldn't do that. Also they were able to hold the forces of the dominion at times again a regional power couldn't do that.
In "All Good Things" i think Q included a few real world astronomical events, like the supernova. I'm actually surprised no one in the Klingon Empire took advantage of Romulus being destroyed in the prime timeline to attempt to one-up the other Great Houses and unseat Martok as chancellor...
Very interesting! I'd love to see this expanded for the Delta Quadrant during the transit of Voyager. In two sectors, a sphere of influence from Ocampa to the Necrid expanse, and another from Necrid to The Void.
Make it three: Ocampa - Nekrid, Borg Space, and The Void to the edge of the Beta Quadrant.
First time visiting your channel, and my family of Trekkies all watched this episode & thoroughly enjoyed! 😁 Loved the logic, humor, episode clips, and above all, references to Luther Sloan (one of the most intriguing and well-written villains ever)! Loved the deep dive into the Trek universe; and keep up the good work! 🏆💯
The borg collective would be a class of their own, Galactic Menace.
Endgame crisis faction
Borg cannot do anything. They get stomped by the Federation at all turns. They're a galactic nuisance.
@@scribbles1424 That wasn't the case for a long time. it was only through a combination of luck, crazy plans, and the power of FRIENDSHIP and Cooperation rather than assimilation that the borg were defeated.
@@zeehero7280 and time travel (ugh)
@@tnh723 Hulk sees this as absolute win, but he's not considering that time travel is only good story when you have an excellent writer AND dont overuse it.
I think the Romulus and Remus were hyper centralized due to Paranoia and a preference for personal rule.
I was under the same impression.
Paranoia can be useful in diplomacy, both internal and external. It keeps you aware of hazards and gets rid of complacency. It's nothing more than a hyperawareness of the things around you.
Paranoia can also be detrimental to diplomacy, it can cause you to mistrust everyone and everthing as a potential source of threat.
I thought the idea was that humans primarily from Earth abandoned currency economics for philosophical enlightenment. If you are a member of the Federation, you can still have and use money, even if you are a human colony. I don't think they'd force a philosophy on any member worlds.
Credits have been mentioned to be in use on fed worlds at least once
Earth must have some form of currency, even if it is drastically different from what we understand today. Human's on earth are frequently show operating small business, such as Picard's Winery or Restaurant operated by Siko's father.
It's nothing to do with a lack of money and everything to do with a "post scarcity" of everyday necessities. technology makes basic stuff so abundant, people don't need to buy it. theres a lot of sources for some form of currency being used by citizens for luxuries.
The federation in its dealings with other powers also uses currency for trade purposes.
@@benhobson3084 - they have a winery and a restaurant because they enjoy doing it.
Is it so difficult to imagine a world where we were all able to do what gave us fulfilment full-time because automation and limitless energy from fusion power provided all the necessities of life without human labour being required?
David Weber's book "Into the Light" gives a great example of how a post scarcity economy like the Federations could work. All basic necessities are free. You want decent food, a nice apartment, and a basic aircar then you can get one.
But if you want the best food, a massive mansion, or the newest, best Templin 3000 aircar then you need "credit." You get credit by trading it (giving it to employees), or getting a government job. Technically credit is time you can use on the massive replicators they have (the stuff which can print starships) like the way money used to be backed by gold.
Giving a Star Trek example. Sisko has a job working for Starfleet and gets credit from it. Sisko pays Picard credit for a bottle of his wine. Picard goes to Sisko's father's restaurant for a meal and pays in credit. Sisko's father pays his staff with the credit from Picard and the other patrons.
The really funny thing is that it technically is fascism, where the state controls the means of production as pretty much everything is made on their fabricators.
As for the Ferengi in 2370, I'd only argue this: Previously, Picard and Data in an episode of TNG had regarded the Ferengi's technology as, "Rivaling the Federation's own." That, combined with their clear trade-ties and inroads to other major powers like the Romulans, feels like it should earn the Ferengi at least a, "Regional Power" rating.
They only said that because they knew very little about the Ferengi at the time. As was mentioned in the same episode. They didn't even know what they looked like.
When the writers over the years destroyed all the rivals to the federation, they have to constantly make up terrible galaxy ending stories every two minutes.
I mean, that’s kinda how it had to go. The federation is the strongest, so the next step in the timeline would be bigger threats further away, by the time of TNG the Romans and Klingons were already shrimp, and it did well to realistically show how each failed
@@oldyladI think that logic is kinda self-defeatist, in a way. If the writers of the show really wanted to give the Klingons or the Romulans something to work from, they would've. They have complete creative control over the IP, after all.
For instance, who's to say the Romulans would've gone down after their homeworld was lost? Even if it was the seat of their power, surely with an empire as enormous as theirs, there's bound to be another world or worlds within their territory that has facilities to be retrofitted to serve as a new seat of government. And as much as the Klingons don't look stable from a long-term perspective, the writers have the power to make them as dangerous or benign as they want. They're the KLINGONS! Prolly second to the Feds for most marketable Trek faction!
The fact that they have willingly allowed the various other powers to diminish is their own fault, and so - like @kampfuchs5192 pointed out - they have to write in new antagonists or threats for the protagonists to face.
It's just a reflection of our own geopolitics. Romulans could be more of a threat of they had kept up with a wider range of technology in the same way the ottoman empire could have, but they didn't so they gradually fade
It's a real shame, because there really isn't a geopolitical scenario quite as exciting as the Axis-Versus-Allies inspiration of the Federation and the Dominion. It's the kind of war-story setting so familiar and rich with narrative possibilities that few would object to, say, a 26th century series revolving around a titular New Dominion, etc. They could also switch up a bit who was part of each side to keep it interesting.
Again: it would just be a reflection of both our world wars and/or recenter alliances. War never stops.
I mean, they went whole hog with the Firts Federation and all the godlike beings in TOS so why don't you feel like that about the TNG timeline. Not even apeaking about Q.
I've always imagined that eventually, the Federation would be the dominant power in the galaxy, with the Ferengi, Romulans and Cardassians all eventually becoming member worlds. The Klingon empire I would imagine shrinking down considerably, with some Klingon colony worlds seceding and joining the Federation.
I agree. The Federation would eventually come to control the entirety of the Alpha and Beta quadrants within 100 years or so.
By the year 2500 their only real rival would be the Dominion. The Federation would control half the galaxy and the Dominion would control the other half as competing hyper powers.
@@Novusod the only question for me (and I don't know about books or Star Trek Online) is what trajectory the Dominion world take after Odo returned to the great link. Seems to me that for his story to have a fitting end, his influence on the founders would be rehabilitating... That they'd turn away from their authoritarin past.
I’d like to see your take on the Predator universe. Ships, weapons, hunting culture and known appearances throughout history.
I second this Can't think what the species is called now mind!
Humans that have hunted/fought back would be a great start!
What is the Predator universe?
@@Harlequin619 They are talking about universe of The Predator films (The Predator, The Predator 2; Aliens vs. Predator, etc.).
@@JackRabbit002 Yautja.
I find you have vastly underestimated the Ferengi, especially with Zek as the Grand Nagus. That guy knew how to play the long game for profits and was deviously intelligent on how he acquired them. The Ferengi were technically the ones to make first contact with the Dominion thanks to him and his efforts to be the first to establish trade routes in the Gamma Quadrant. This not only granted him access to an insanely massive economy but also managed to provide intelligence to the Federation regarding the Dominion when they needed it. Quark was even authorised to cease all trade if the Karemma didn't provide info on how to locate the Founders. He also managed to use Ferengi as intermediaries for the trade agreement between them and the Federation. Do not underestimate them. Their greatest weapon is money and they use it very well.
Also they do trade with every known power out there including the Federation. How is anyone's guess but they do appear around Federation worlds seeking profit.
Barter is the oldest and frequently easiest method of doing business.
@@lorzon Yeah we do see Riker get put in charge of negotiating a trade offer for use of a Wormhole. The Federation clearly does engage in trade, it just isn't interesting in currency and prefers simply to trade goods of approximately equal value.
Agreed. The Ferengi don't deal in money or profit. They deal in SCARCITY. Because of this they are very flexible and opportunistic. You don't notice the Ferengi until they are there with something you need or just as importantly, NOT THERE with something you need.
Even the Federation has to pick up the phone when the Ferengi dial (if its important enough and not just the latest pitch for Slug-O-Cola.)
I think the Dominion is stronger than you think even after a paradigm shift. Keep in mind: the forces they mobilized in the Alpha quadrant were a tiny fraction of what they could muster. The mining and blockading of the wormhole by the DS9 crew and the Prophets kept the majority of their reinforcements in the Gamma quadrant. And post-war, what losses of territory or resources have they even suffered in the Gamma quadrant? Not much. The Founders immunity to being assimilated is a huge weapon in their arsenal against any incursions by the Borg
I am also a huge fan of the Romulans, probably my favorite sci-fi civilization/power.
Awesome video!!
As for the Dominion I do not feel they were to damaged at all by losing the war. They still control the Gamma Quadrant and can rebuild and rearm at their leisure.
I disagree, I think it is possible, given what is shown in DS9, that the Dominion could be deeply fractured. Odo would be a compelling advocate for the rights of solids within the great link but not necessarily universally persuasive given the deep cultural mistrust the founders have. I think it would divide them. If such division were to happen, control of the Vorta and Jem'hadar could get complicated, maybe even lost ketricel white or not. You don't have to loose home territory to be damaged by war. The founders may have begun to loose credibility with the Vorta and Jem'hadar. Their client races may loose a bit of fearfulness. The Founders themselves may loose confidence in their own principles. The Dominion, is more politically and morally fragile than you are giving them credit for.
@@wagrhodes13 That's a lot of 'possibilities' there. Human history is full of nations which had major military setbacks and recovered almost immediately. The "fractures" you see are only being unrest caused in a localized area because a tiny fraction of their force was caught without support and forced to rely on local auxiliaries. The only reason the Dominion had so few ships in the war was due to the wormhole being inaccessible, first by the mines and later by the wormhole aliens.
The Founders would have no issues with just wiping out of the returning Jem'hadar and Vorta even if is just to ensure they can put their own spin on what happened. We have no way of knowing that any of their subjects would know about what happened, much less that a war was fought.
@@cp1cupcake Yeah, a small isolated force of Dominion under competent leadership managed to steamroll the Alpha and Beta quadrants for a good while before Sisko and friends tricked the Romulans to join their side, and even then the Dominion still held out for a while. They made very good use of the circumstances, manipulating other species like the Cardassians into doing some of the work for them and using Changeling infiltrators to destabilize enemies. Hell, with how much the Alliance was afraid of the Dominion sending in a reinforcement fleet through the wormhole before it got poofed by the wormhole aliens, it was likely equivalent if not greater in number than the fleets the Dominion had sent in initially.
The dominion almost took over the entire alpha quadrant by just sending a few fleets through the wormhole.
Awesome and thorough analysis!
The thing about the published maps is that they all tend to treat the galactic plane as effectively 2D, which creates the weird impression that the UFP is cut into pieces. I'd love to see a more 3D representation, which might show stretches of UFP, Romulan, or Klingon territory overlapping with those of other powers at certain Z coordinates.
Would be awesome, but super difficult to do
Star Wars and Warhammer 40k (among many, many others) have a similar issue with their galactic maps.
Honestly, though, the Templin Institute took the bias notion of saying the Federation would have still won the Dominion War in actual reality the Dominion was kicking their ass across every frontline simply because of Starfleet's lack of upgraded ships and the utopian liberal mindset by it's leaders. Even Lore Reloaded on TH-cam would question the Templin Instuties's overall perspective.
The Federation's timeline would be a very useful example of exploring these power dynamics, particularly in the context of soft power. It started as a group of regional powers unified under a common threat, and has gone about a policy of extremely enthusiastic inclusion. The major states are all great powers thanks largely to accruing the benefits of a tremendous range of technologies and ideas from other members, and includes dozens of regional powers and well over a hundred minor powers, but thanks to having a very unusual uniformity of ideals and the extremely effective use of soft power, it wields much more power than even the cumulative totals of its member states. It also demonstrates how past a certain threshold, soft power begins to snowball - whatever the specific terms of joining the Federation are, they must be tremendously generous for so many states to join so eagerly.
Doesn't the Federation have pretty strict rules for joining them?
Strict is a relative term. The Feds are an open society and the terms of joining means member states must embrace that openness.
What we've seen from the first contact episodes is first and foremost an extreme care to not interfere with pre-warp civilizations. When such a culture is discovered they may be observed and territory is set aside for them. They've never said exactly how much but it's at minimum their own solar system, and probably a few surrounding habitable systems if the galactic geography makes it possible.
We've seen a number of societies fail their application based on shady internal politics.
So the conditions for federation membership are only really strict for authoritarians and scumbags.
There are probably also restrictions on how rapidly new member's societies are opened to the greater federation culture, beyond the initial political alliance, to prevent them from being overwhelmed.
A diplomatic relationship with the Federation is easy, be a warp capable society and they will reach out to you. The whole Cochrane Effect that was brought up in Star Trek: Picard.
Federation Membership is probably harder. By necessity their rules are both strict and vague. There is no one way to run a society. Andorians for example, are a militant society. Their social structure is built around one's rank in the imperial guard. Apply their methods to humans and you would have a recipe for fascist state on par with the Federation from the Starship Troopers universe, yet that is not how Andorian society treats it's citizens.
The United Federation of Planets has to judge on loose criteria:
Is the government stable?
Does the government allow free expression of ideas?
Are the basic needs of all citizens met? (And those needs may vary depending on the species)
And the real politick question: Does the applicant enhance the federation, or will they be a burden?
There is probably at least one post-warp society stuck in the middle of federation space that can't join because they refuse to tackle their own wealth inequality.
The Federation is the only known society that's not an autocracy of one sort or another. That means that any world that is free or wants to be free has nowhere to turn but the Federation, and the benefits of joining/allying with it are immense. It is basically the NATO/EU of the Galaxy. If the Templin Institute's analysis of the Dominion is correct, it probably enjoys a similar sort of soft power in the Gamma Quadrant, based on its offer of peace and stability. Nobody else even seems to understand soft power, much less acquire and wield it effectively.
10:48 The fact they're a Superpower is probably not an accident. Let's not forget that Gene Roddenbery grew up during the Cold War. Superpower soft conflicts were constant
I love talking about lore of these SciFi shows, like Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, Warhammer 40 k and similar :)
I love Ferengi. It is basically pay to win strategy. They become more powerfull after war while other suffer heavy loses. And they are really funny and with deep philosophy.
There diplomacy is too notch
DS9 really is the Ferengi show.
And alos he say federation klingon romulans ect not trade
Fedration have out federation trade option, only few part of federation and they colony not use money. Romulans and feregin have good relation in biznes.
Feregin lern that is not good for profit to laiy romulans and they stable trade betwen them, once you show a feregin you not accept a shit they actuality start give you a good stuff in good price, so like klingons or romulans normal work on that but federation have a problem, what they do after a bad trade ? Do a war xd ?
@@crhu319yee
@@crhu319and oddo is not happy abaut it
I like the series! But I think, the Borg are still at least a super power or great power, just because of their potential. Yes they are broken right now, but they can recover at tremendous speed. Also the Romulan Empire is at least still a Super power even in decline. They were still able to infiltrate Starfleet, build enormous fleets, control a vast amount of systems and conduct major science projects. For example the Borg cube in Picard.
Next - Warhammer 40k
Babylon 5
Mass Effect
Stargate
Yes, this. A regional power can't become a hyperpower in 2 or 3 years, but a recovered Borg clearly could.
You'd think this would be a sufficient number of classifications, but the wild swings in 2400 show it to not be the case. Romulans went from a very weak superpower to the top end of regional power. If the Federation ranks ahead of the Dominion it is by the slimmest of margins.
I was onboard till 1:42 when you mentioned that you were going to include the alternate Kurtzman universe in your assessment.
I very much enjoyed the analysis and lore you presented here.
The Collective might be down and out for 2400, but it will come back, given the opportunity and the time.
No. The Borg Collective was in severe decline since 2378 thanks to a time travelling Amiral Janeway an her neurolytic parthogen. In 2401 the Borg Queen was alone. All her drones have died and she was unable to assimilate new drones.
Would be cool to see this done for the mass effect universe.
When the Federation decides to get its act together it becomes unstoppablw
Except when it suffered its worst defeat in history at the hands of the Borg, when it considered surrendering to the Klingons (twice), and when it was almost destroyed by the Dominion. But apart from that, they're totally unstoppable.
@@saladinbob And yet they didn't get assimilated by the Borg, but rather became the only nation in thousands of years to successfully repel multiple attempts at assimilation, in the process dealing such a blow to the Borg that they are reduced to a shell of their former power. And as to the Dominion, while the Dominion had a technological and manpower advantage over the Federation when the war began, eventually the Federation had neutralized pretty much every one of those advantages, and became the first nation to defeat the Dominion in it's 10,000 year history.
And the Federation only considered surrendering to the Klingons once, in a alternate timeline in which the Empire was much stronger.
Nothing you stated disproved his points. Unstoppable does not mean invincible. The Federation gets bruised and bloodied, sure, but so far they have emerged from every challenge thrown their way stronger than they were before, while those powers they have gone up against have become a shadow of what they once were.
That sounds pretty fucking unstoppable to me.
@@ObsdnBlck Pretty sure that if not for both the Romulans and Klingons (or any pair of the 3) they clearly would have lost the Dominion war hard.
@@Spoons__ I disagree. Unless the Dominion were able to achieve a quick victory, their chances of beating the UFP was small. Certainly, the Klingons and Romulans helped a great deal, and brought the war to a close far sooner than it would have without them, but I would argue that the Federations adaptability and engineering capability is their greatest strength, and that made them well equipped to fight a war of attrition. It would have been a long and bloody campaign, but ultimate Federation victory was possible even if the Romulans and Klingons never entered the war.
It's all plot armor. Federation whacking the Borg and defeating the Dominion when the majority of Dominion is still in Gamma Quadrant
The Borg would have had a much easier time if they arrived in peace and offered membership to any and all who wished to join as well as allowing those who wished to leave to do so. Through diplomacy they could offer their services as a think tank. By making themselves enemies to all they doomed themselves from the outset.
If they ever manage to achieve perfection i think they would go down that route. After achieving perfection, adding other imperfect beings by assimilation would be a net loss to the collective.
Though, by definition, perfection is unachievable...
“Diplomacy is inefficient.” - The Borg, probably.
Tho considering their exponential capacity to adapt, you’d think that their psychological “warfare” (think Federation diplomatic skills) would be top tier… 🤔
@@UGNAvalon I think Borg adaptation refers only to their technology. Their social/psychological structure (if it can even be defined as that) is horribly inflexible, and tends towards generalization rather than specialization (how many drones have a chance at becoming queen?) to the point where diplomacy is almost an alien concept to them (though they pass this off as not-worth-their-time and below them)
Literally if the Borg assimilation was voluntary they wouldn't have to worry about resistance.
What you're describing is a more efficient and much more heavily industrialized Federation.
This is actually a very good list. The Federation and the Romulans definitely emerge after the Dominian war as the two major powers, so it feels correct to put them ahead of the Klingons. Similarly, by the time of the Picard series the Federation are pretty much unopposed in the Alpha Quadrant, and undoubtedly a hyper power.
In the old game "birth of the federation " the ferengi where broken. They could simply buy the map and the other powers would struggle to bring anything noteworthy to the table while a disposable orange title wave of fleets smothered whatever you thought you had that was important.
Because my original comment seems to have disappeared, I'll repeat. Interesting analysis. for my thoughts it'd be the following:
2370: (Sub-)Hyper: Dominion & Borg; Super: UFP; Great: Romulans & Klingons; Regional: Cardassians; Middle: Ferengi & Breen.
2400: Hyper None; Super: UFP, Borg, & Dominion; Great: Klingons; Regional: Cardassians, Ferengi, & Romulans; Middle: Breen.
My reasons will be in a following reply.
RIP
Well we are waiting
@@julianozaur444 ; I made the reply with my reasons 2 years ago. If you don't see it, then there are TH-cam shenanigans going on.
You mentioned cloaking as a technology the Federation was _unwilling_ to pursue. This isnt true: the Federation has pursued cloaking a few times, but it is prohibited from doing so after 2311 due to a peace treaty with the Romulans, and we see routine use of cloaking by Starfleet vessels in the 32nd century, long after the Romulan Star Empire has ceased to exist, replaced by the unified Vulcan/Romulan Ni'Var state.
Whilst true that's too far in the future to be useful to 24th century analysis. And by that point the federation is a rump state abandoned by all its founding members and barely able to keep up with a criminal cartel. Not to mention strongly implied in the most recent season to be technologically and scientifically far behind Ni'Var at the point when they rejoin.
Given the Romulan Star Empire ceased to exist when Romulus went boom, that treaty likely no longer applies.
@@nagillim7915 I don't think it's that simple. In real life international courts have sustained many times governments still have to abide by treaties signed by their legal predecessors. So the federation would need to renegotiate the treaty with whichever government emerged as the legal successor of the star empire. Unless they started using cloaking devices after the Romulan-Vulcan unification which would truly mark the end of any obligations the federation had if vulcan was still a member world
@@Jacques_a_dit - what if there isn't a successor state? What if the empire fell apart and there are multiple Romulan states with different attitudes towards the Federation? Which takes precedence?
Though that may not matter anyway. Our international courts exist as part of the United Nations. There is no equivalent to the United Nations in Star Trek and therefore no court with jurisdiction at a supranational level. The closest equivalent would be the Khitomer conferences, but those are temporary assemblies and not permanent systems of arbitration.
@@Jacques_a_dit even if there was the equivalent of a international court the power of that court is limited. If a member of the court declines to honor the ruling they'd have to rely on the international community to enforce...and if the Federation is the analogue to the US they'd be the main military power to enforce the ruling. The reason the Federation doesn't (usually) break the treaty is it helped prevent war. If the Stat Empire was gone there'd be no need to enforce it.
I would love if someone would rank all the omnipotent/god like/non-corporeal individual and collective powers in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant. They mostly appear in one episode lulls in franchise storytelling but I have always found them fascinating. Playing trickster games like the Q Continuum, wormhole aliens as benefactors, emotionally volatile planet owning powers that wipe out whole races and planets, entities that are alive and live in space etc. And use a Kardeshev scale kind of measurement. I've typed so much, maybe I just volunteered. Lol.
We don't know enough to comprehend the power scale of them.
It is because of the unspoken or unactions they take. Could they destroy the Galaxy without effort in a blink of an eye? We don't know. Because we are still here. They could but choose not to. Could they say we can't? Sure. Do we believe them? We can't be sure because they are beyond our understanding.
In terms of ranking you can put them in a god like power tier above hyper power. But you can't rank them differently.
We don't know if we are their sandbox to play in. Or if they exist in the same box as we. And we can't trust a word of what they say because we don't know if we are simply being mislead for fun or for our own good.
It would be interesting to see this updated after Discovery. We have another 1,000+ years to add in that show alone... and the burn impacted everyone. Great video.
A great video analysis that draws logical conclusions based on all available Canon material. You couldn't ask for anything better.
I love this channel so much. I've dreamt my entire life to be able to have these kind of conversations, but always unsure of the enthusiasm of the other people. Glad I found a channel that goes as deep into the overarching world building vice the exact plots. Staying in character for the narration vids is just a bonus.
Past generations argued over comic books. We argue about the Breen being super sexy blue elves under that cold suit. Meh!
9:50
On the subject of cloaking, the primary reason for the Federation being unwilling to develop cloaking devices (I think, anyway) was a treaty that forbid them from doing so. The USS Pegasus used a phased cloaking device, so we know that the Federation is capable of making them.
The Pegasus also got stuck in a rock though, hahahaha
The Treaty of Algernon. And the Pegasus experiment was a foray into cloaking research that ended badly. They really overteched the problem.
I really love how well written Templin Institute videos are. You guys need some more praise for your linguistics and research, it's wonderful.
This is one of my favorite videos ever made by you guys. Maybe my favorite. I would love many more of these types of videos!
Superb in every way. A genueinely well constructed and conveyed set of rational and cogent arguments.
The Federation has had the capacity to work with cloaking technology, and during Kirk's time was actively researching a lot of it... or stealing it from the Romulans. This shows how much of the influence that sort of thing. However, that also drove a lot of the continued rivalry with the Federation and risked war, something that the Federation was always hesitant to engage in as a first solution.
This leads to the Treaty of Algeron between the Federation and the Romulans in which the Federation agreed not to engage in research into cloaking devices in exchange for not having a war. Though, it also runs into issues in which while they signed the treaty, there weren't always those that followed it. The research on the USS Pegasus and the Holoship to move the Baku show that there were those within the Federation that were at times willing to violate the treaty for some other means.
The USS Pegasus fiasco with the Phase device wasnt originally meant to be a cloaking device (barring section 31 shenanigans), just something that allowed them to move through solid matter without contacting it. Then somebody realised it totally could be used as a cloak and things went down hill as the crew mutinied.
But its been years since ive seen the relevant episode so my memory and google fu might be failing me.
The only other major science fiction franchise I can think of that has a level of political intrigue approaching Star Trek would be Babylon 5. That might make for an interesting analysis
B5 power structure seems fairly straight forward compared to Star Trek. Vorlons and Shadow are hyperpower level, if you count them as powers. The Minbari are the only superpower, and even borderline hyperpower, since they could probably singlehandedly take on everyone else in the known galaxy just by themselves. The Centauri are a great power, while the humans and Narn are regional powers at best. The Minbari can easily beat the Centauri, while the Centauri can easily beat either the humans or the Narn.
Agreed on the Federation as Superpower.
2400: With the Romulans downgraded, the Dominion back in it's corner and the Borg having suffered so much, there is no real rival left. All Picarad Season 1 is, is some border skirmish. A side project of maybe 2 Admirals. Their only true danger is timetravel, no wonder they go for the Temporal Accords.
Until the Burn scours them, they are basically unrivalled. And even after, they only fall down to Great Power.
# Klingons - also agreed. As you said, their focus on military ends up stabbing their own military in the foot. For the Federation, fighting them was basically a "side gig". Something they did _on top_ of all the other stuff.
2400: Yeah, they had all their existing issues - plus the devastation of a true total war.
# Romulans - yes, they are a Superpower. As you said their Foreign Diplomacy is lacking. "Romulans - so predictably deceitfull." - Weyoun.
2400: I think their biggest loss was in unity. "All roads lead to rome." When the Tal Shiar headquarters was turned into a asteroid field, their ability to keep people in line splintered. People just up and left. Quite a few stayed because there is stil strenght, but at least half their power is gone.
# Cardassian. Also agreed. When comparing the two, I would say the Tal Shiar is more a offensive Secret Service. While the Obsidian Order is more a defensive oriented one.
2400: I would downgrade them to a Regional Power at best. They require Federation aid just to not collapse. And the best future is to join the Federation.
# Ferengi also agreed. What hampers them in particular is their weak central government and their focus on short term gains. It is hard to leverage their power with that.
2400: I would only have Upgraded them to a Regional power, as their power is still very fractured. With a solid central government, they would have been a Great Power before the war. I mean they were originally designed as a Rival to the TNG Federation.
# Breen - I would at least put them on Regional Power. Even after their weapon was defeaed, they still comitted quite the military to the war. Easily on par with the Cardassians or Klingons Fleets I would say.
2400: Nothing much changed as far as we know.
# Dominion - agreed. What the Federation fought with was the Advance force and they still needed allies. Without the distance and the Prophets blocking the wormhole, the Dominion would never have _needed_ allies. Even the Cardassians were only used to make a Bridgehead.
However their technology is actually weak. They did exist for 2 Millennia, yet their total sum technology was barely ahead of the Federation. This was all their progress in 2000 Years. Despite all their resources, they failed at curing the virus. That tech progress is easily worse then the Klingons and propably worse then the Borgs!
2400: I still think they are a Hyperpower. Even with reforms, they are still the biggest one in ther Quadrant. Because they destroyed all potential rivals ages ago. As far as losses are concerned, the Dominion war was bascially a border Skirmish. Most of the resources lost were part of that advance force. Their biggest weakness is now that the Federation has overcome their initial tech advantage.
# Agreed on the Borg. In a way, their Hivemind is a exceptionally strong government, a exceptionally good way to leverage resources and manpower. Their weakest point is being inventive. All their knowledge is stolen. Hoarded over centuries.
Despite their unrivalled ability to leverage their population, the performance in science is lackluster. Their ability to adapt is - ironically - non existant. Adaptation relies mostly on what they have already assimilated. They can not realy "invent" new stuff, only realize that some old knowledge is usefull now.
2400: They might not even be a Regional Power anymore. They took a hit to their central government on par with the Romulans. But at least with Romulans and the Dominion, people might still _want_ to stay allinged to them. There is no such luck for the Borg! Literally nobody wants to be part of the Borg Collective.
I'd enjoy an alternate version of this based on the Star Trek Online setting. If nothing else, we have a LOT more information on the various powers. Tentatively, I'd classify them as follows:
United Federation of Planets: Superpower, but approaching hyperpower status. A key part of this is their alliance with the Klingon Empire and Romulan Republic, and their newfound ability to project power into the Delta Quadrant. However, they are not completely unchallenged.
Klingon Empire: Great power. The Klingons seemed to reform under Martok, but then, after they recovered, they went back to the old ways. They were strong enough that the Romulan Republic opted to maintain neutrality in the Second Klingon-Federation War, rather than ally with the Federation. The Klingons have also improved their diplomacy (somewhat), have conquered the Orions and Gorn, and now offer opportunities for advancement to non-Klingons.
Romulan Republic: On the lower end of great power. The Republic has made great strides, and is treated as an equal by the Klingons and Federation. However, they are still rebuilding after the Hobus supernova and the war with the Tal Shiar. They would be a regional power at best if they didn't have their alliance with the Federation and Klingons.
Ferengi Alliance: Middle power. Pretty much unchanged.
Cardassian Union: Small power, but recovering. The Cardassian Union is now a Federation client state, but has successfully reformed into a mostly stable democracy thanks in no small part to the Garak Administration.
Dominion: Hyperpower. Still unrivaled in the Gamma Quadrant.
Borg Collective: Superpower. They have recovered to the point of being able to threaten the Federation's core space. However, with the Federation now able to project power into the Delta Quadrant, they are no longer unrivaled there. For perhaps the first time ever, the Borg are facing an enemy that can actually match them strength for strength, and can assimilate Borg technology.
What an amazing video and well put. I just found this channel today and all of the videos are amazing.
I like how you show how the Federation isn't weak that it can hold it own
I love the name 'Big-Time'!
I think the assertion, that the other alpha/beta powers are mono-ethnic states, is not quite correct though def a fair take from the way they are most often presented in show. I seem to remember that in TOS there was examples of the Klingons vying for control of already inhabited planets with the federation, the Gorn are cannonically underneath the Klingons, and the Cardassians very famously held the Bajorans in bondage and then having Human settlers under their jurisdiction. Given the prevalance of sentient life in the star trek universe and the size of the major powers, they all almost certainly contain "client states" with differing species. With different levels of integration from Klingons being paid tribute, to the slave system of the Cardassian Bajorans, to the strict but somewhat hands off hierarchies of the Dominion. The show unfortunately doesn't do a good job of showing that, its alot of context that frankly wasnt all that important to what the shows were trying to do until DS9.
Mono-ethnic in the sense that one single ethnicity/race/species holds most, if not all, power. Think Jim Crow America, Apartheid South Africa, the combined territories of Israel and Palestine. It doesn't mean they don't have other races, it is just that one is at the top and rules over the others. Though one can say that Humans do hold disproportionate influence in the Federation, both politically, culturally, and militarily, the other races still have a say and enjoy all the same rights and opportunities Humans do.
The prequel comics to Picard also show the Romulans had client/slave races.
@@JoaoPedro-gc8mw ,
The reason the Humans have so much more control of the Federation is...
The Federation is written by humans, lol. If, say, the Vulcans got to write the novels/movies/shows we watch then there will be a Vulcan bias. Honestly, I just wish the humans who write about the Federation move away from such obvious Human-Centric themes/names for the Federation. :/
@@aralornwolf3140 There's a fair number of Vulcans but fewer other species.
Great vid. Nice to see a fellow fan of the Romulans.
I loved the concept of the Dominion as basically the anti-Federation. Many species coerced, either through diplomatic or military means, into joining. You also did not mention the self-serving genetic manipulation that the Founders imposed on subject species.
Would love to see the Tholian Assembly, Gorn Hegemony, Kzin Patriarchy and Talarian Republic added.
(Make an addendum video maybe?)
Add all to small power, fixed 😂
Amazing review; top tier in terms of thoroughness and supporting evidence for my out rankings. Wel done from a data guy
personally I would have maintained the Romulans as a Super or Great Power. Facing down the federation fleet without something to back it up seems very short sighted.
as for other galaxies, and evolution of power in the Babylon 5 universe might be interesting
Babylon 5 sounds awesome
I would say they would be bumped down to great power after the destruction of romulus for a couple decades but climb back up once they get a stable government, something like STO's Romulan Republic, with a new homeworld settled.
I got the distinct impression from some episodes of TNG (stuff like legal precedent on foreign worlds involving Klingon artisans) that the Klingon populace is significantly more metropolitan than the empire itself. As a people they may wield more power than they appear to as a state.
I love love love the romulan empire. They are just so unique compared to some. They tend to fall off the face of the map, then reappear with a veangence
Ok, first off, impressive style in presentation. First time seeing one of your videos.
I'm impressed by the length of this video, graphic quality and production values, a lot of time and attention to detail was expended to make this video.
All to explain concepts, hierarchy's, races, philosophies, economic systems etc, of things that do not exist. Not to mention all these people in the comment section discussing
the history, politics and the military might of powers that occupy certain quadrants of the galaxy that are non existent.
This video could be a religion. lol
The decision to make the destruction of Romulus canon was so idiotic. Its like other franchise have nukes go off
Sorry I do not understand. What do you mean about nukes?
@@danielyeshe It’s a jump the shark moment. Like how in some TV shows such as 24 a catastrophe will happen and completely change the world order so non-creative writers don’t have to think too much
I think this is a very interesting ranking. However, I do think that the Federation's military power is over-estimated. The Federation is clearly a major industrial power, and they have incredible soft power. However, I would say that the Federation tends to be dangerously pacifistic, and extremely anti-militaristic to its own detriment. It is repeatedly said, after all, that Starfleet is not a military, and many Starfleet ships, like the USS Enterprise D, had families on board, even when those ships were exploring unknown or dangerous regions of space.
For example, the Federation suffered a minor loss in the negotiated peace at the end of the Federation-Cardassian War of 2347, a peace that the Cardassians saw as a victory. This peace gave rise to the Maquis, which caused no end to the Federation's problems. Also, the Federation many times nearly lossed the war with the Dominion. In the DS9 episode "In the Pale Moonlight", Sisko stated that they were losing and desperately needed the Romulans to have a chance of victory, and Senator Vreenak confirmed that the Federation was already sending out peace-feelers.
Finally, there is the issue of the Prime Directive. The Federation will not colonize or exploit other worlds if there is a risk of violating the Prime Directive. While a morally laudable thing to do, this can effectively stifle the Federation's ability to expand into new planets and exploit the natural resources. Other powers like the Klingons or the Romulans do not have this issue. This could be why the Klingons and the Romulans are able to compete with the Federation. it also raises a troubling scenario: the Romulans and Klingons conquer new worlds and exploit the raw materials, which are then exported to the Federation which then turns those raw materials into consumer goods. The Klingons and Romulans do the dirty work while the Federation gets to claim that it keeps its hands clean.
Thus the Federation's major flaw is that it's overly pacifistic and diplomatic nature, combined with the expectations of its citizenry that a high quality of life be.maintained and that hardship be averted, means that there is little tolerance in the Federation for a prolonged conflict.
I would also say that a major flaw of the Federation is the incredible power and scope of Starfleet, and the lack of civilian control over Starfleet. Starfleet is in charge of science, exploration, diplomacy, foreign affairs, federal law enforcement, AND defense, which effectively makes it the most powerful institution in the Federation bar none. This means that when Starfleet goes against the civilian government, the civilian government is effectively helpless, and requires aid from other more loyal Starfleet officers. In the movie Star Trek V, for example, major figures in the Admiralty nearly undermined the peace process, and was only stopped by other Starfleet officers led by Captain Kirk. Similarly, in the DS9 episode "Homefront", Admiral Leyton nearly launched a coup, and it was only other Starfleet others led by Captain Sisko that stopped. Similarly, in the movie Star Trek: Insurrection, Admiral Doughery engaged in a covert alliance with the Son'a to exploit the Bak'u, and only Captain Picard was able to stop him. When Starfleet goes wrong, the civilian population tends to be effectively helpless.
I would also argue that the Klingon's overall military power is under-estimated. For example, in the TNG episode "Yesterday's Enterprise", the Klingons were waging a war against that era's Federation, and the Klingon's were winning. Similarly, in the 1st season of STD, the Klingon's were winning the war against the Federation in 2256-57.
In addition, the Klingon's were able to wage a war against the Klingon-Cardassian war in 2372, against the Federation in 2372-2373, and then were able to contribute to the Dominion War. In fact, when the Breen joined the Dominion during a significant portion of the war, the Klingon's were the ONLY fleet capable of standing against the Breen-Dominion Alliance in DS9 "When It Rains...". It is stated that Martok had 1,500 warships ready for deployment. These were three major wars that the Klingons were part of, and the Klingons were able to absorb the losses and continue to fight on par with the Federation.
In my opinion, a good analogy to the Klingons would be the Nomadic Eurasian tribes in the Eurasian steppes that plagued China and Europe in pre-Industrial times. They were politically fragmented and often fighting each other. However, if they were united under a single leader, then they could be incredibly effective in conquering territories and toppling their enemies.
I see it as the inverse. The Federation's military power is often underestimated. They're peaceful, not harmless. The Federation has consistently managed to stand up to and outmaneuver almost every power they've come across. They're unwillingness to violate the territorial rights of species they've encountered in the name of exploiting resources is rarely a major issue as space is vast, and no one is better at searching for new resources than the Federation Starfleet. They don't have to concern themselves with weakening themselves via conflict over resources as they can simple forge ahead and find a different source.
As for The Klingon Self Defense Force since they devote vast amounts of their energy, culture, economy, and civilization to military power it's honestly hard to underestimate them. Star Trek VI showed that they devote so much to their military that they couldn't withstand the shock of an ecological disaster and that was almost the end of them. However the issue with the Breen entry into the war was that the Klingon ships could all be immediately modified to resist the weapon, which was a point of technological difference, not one of overall power. The Klingons did not have sufficient power even combined with the Federation to push the fight to Cardassia to end the Dominion War. That required the Romulans.
While the Federation may be to restrained in engaging in military engagements, the Klingons martial culture allowed them to be easily manipulated into aggression. The Cardassian-Klingon War and the subsequent Federation-Klingon War were both tools the Founders used to weaken the Cardassians, Federation, and the Klingons and it all hinged on the Klingons blood thirst.
That might have been the case before the Borg and Dominion War, but they're definitely more militaristic now.
@@LIONtib Also you have to bear in mind that while peaceful. The Federation takes the best technology and research from hundreds of federation members, almost like a nice version of the Borg. They assimilate the tech, just nicely :p So I would disagree the romulans are ahead tech wise, the Federation in theory should have so much more research at its finger tips, true the romulans do not care how they develop technology, but even still, they only have a few planets, vs Hundreds(possibly Thousands of planets, since each member race could have more than 1 planet, ie Vulcan, Andorians etc)
As for their ships, while Federation ships may not have been designed for war, they are incredibly powerful vessels. I also find it odd the Federation does not simply outnumber all of the opposition. How big was the Vulcan fleet? Bare in mind on their own, they could stand up to the klingons in Archer's day. I am sure they would not just scrap their fleet without having federation couterparts in place, same with the Andorians etc. The federation should just on sheer numbers be able to vastly overpower any of the other races, after all how many planets and personel does the Federation have vs the others. (well other alpha races, I would say they should be roughly on par with the Dominion numerical wise). I mean granted the storylines would be a bit crap if the federation was the all mighty and powerful force, but in reality, they really would be, at least in the Alpha Quadrant.
I think it’s impressive the federation’s fleet can match the warship focused fleets of the other powers without being dedicated warships.
That's only partially true. Ironically the Federation has the Borg to thank for this, because they were caught with their pants down when a single Borg cube cut through their fleet at Wolf 359 and damn near assimilated Earth by itself. Alarmed, Federation and Starfleet did start devoting resources towards more dedicated warships, and due to its immense resources, the Federation was not only able to start arming in quantity, such as with the Akira class ships, but are also able to bring their superior tech to bear by producing more versatile ships. For instance the Defiant class ships are smaller than Klingon Birds of Prey but pack just as big a punch. And by the end of the Dominion war the Federation is testing prototypes like the Prometheus which are far more advanced than anything the Klingons or Romulans can field.
So that one Borg cube Q threw at the Enterprise started a chain reaction leading to Starfleet becoming much more militaristic in nature, which probably helped save the alpha quadrant's bacon against the Dominion.
I always thought of the federation as a pre-Pearl Harbour USA. They have great wealth and power, but do not want to involve themselves into conflicts and would prefer peace. Their military is "sufficient" for peace time and to focus power on regional threats and small military operations. Diverting ressources to develop a "Scimitar-like" Starship as encouraged by a few "Wardogs" in the Federation is seen a a waste of ressources, better allocated to further develop member worlds and benefit their population.
However each time the fuse it lit and something blows up, it ramps it's immense production power up fueled by all that earned peacetime wealth, and it does not take too long that you have a WW2 scenario all over again. Where by only a few years, NO ONE can compete with the amount of power the military can project. And this is where they quickly build the next generation starships... Until victory is achieved and the giant goes to sleep again. Rince and repeat.
You forgot about the Voth. They were clearly ahead of the Dominion and even the Borg. Good thing they were just some throwaway "alien of the week" on some old Voyager episode, because their existence messes up the entire galactic balance of power!
It was like the Dominion War and the Dominion attack on Starfleet was like what happened when the Japanese made that sneak attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7th,1941 that lead the United States to become a major ally and a major power house during WW2.
We need a Federation Reimagined video.
And the others Star Trek powers reimagined.
There are Klingon and Ferengi flags present during Picard's speech to Star Fleet Academy in 2400 (Picard season 2 episode 1). They stand amongst the flags of the Federation's founders, strongly implying that the Klingons and Ferengi are Federation members now.
Maybe there are just cadets from this worlds. Most nowadays military schools and academies flag in all the cadets countries.
Klingons would require some adjustments but I think they'd be down for the union.
I love it how Quark is giving the Klingons an economics lesson.
That's a great episode
I love how Garak ends up as the new leader of the Obsidian Order. Whom if I remember right, are the intelligence branch of the Cardassian government, specializing in those things and gathering info by any means necessary, even destroying the reputations of other people like when they tried to frame Station Chief Engineer Miles O'Brien as a Maquis spy and saboteur in a sham trial even by Cardassian standards using a Cardassian spy who was captured - but he might've been from the 1st or 2nd Order, pretending to be an old friend of Miles' from Starfleet Academy. And the choice makes sense due to Garak's history as a former spy master and assassin. He learned from Enabran Tain himself [his distant father] and learned more than a thing or 2 from the Federation with his time on DS9 firsthand of their strengths and weaknesses. Plus with some changes after the Dominion War, the former Tailor and Clothing store owner likely has a wife and children of his own, albeit in secret. But that's debatable since Cardassians see orphans as a liability on the state's resources as a culture and cannot inherit, which is why most of those Cardassian children on Bajor were abandoned after the Federation-Cardassian War. And that later on fueled the fire of the conflict in the Neutral Zone between Cardassian Colonists and the Maquis ex-Federation Colonists. There were likely many orphans by the time those wars and conflicts were over. Garak himself was something of an orphan since he was raised by a single mother and Twin took him under his wing and looked out for him from afar. Even Gul Dukat was always thinking about his half Bajoran daughter Zee'al, who was shot by his subordinate and understudy Da'mar for her disloyalty to her father for choosing Bajor and essentially the Federation over him and the Cardassian Empire as the Dominion were being pushed out of Bajoran space by the alliance of Klingon and Federation ships (still before the Romulans became involved thanks to some manipulation from Captain Sisko, albeit ashamedly, and Garak working together). And if Garak was openly admitting to being the son of Tain that might cause a conflict. Anyway, I'm glad that he could get a win and that finally after probably almost like 15+ years in exile [essentially punished by his father for looking like he was going soft giving some rations to starving Bajoran kids], he was able to go home and stay. And basically took up his Pop's old job. I also hope his anxiety issues have gotten better, if not I also also hope he stayed in contact with Ezri Dax, his one time therapist and latest friend on DS9 lol.
A very long comment, which deserves some credit! Well done, thank you VERY MUCH!!! There's always need for a good tailor ^^ Greetz from germany!
@@biegendesrohr9550 Always. Even in the future where people can make clothing instantly using technology. You always need a good tailor to fix things up 😁😏😉👍🏾. (He definitely carries something like a sonic knife on him though. Which is more probably a sewing tool, but could easily sever tendons and cut jugulars if he needed something in an emergency or needed to get info quick 😵😖🪡🧵).
And hello hello from the US 👋🏾😄. Lol
Stumbled onto your channel. The intro was 🔥🔥🔥
Also great vid 🖖
On the contrary to your Federation analysis, I would say the Federation has extremely limited power projection capabilities in 2370. Its fleet of armed science vessels, patrol ships and merchant cruisers gets completely rolled every time it meets serious opposition. The Federation wins wars through sheer numbers and the weight of firepower that it provides, and even then many of its victories are won due to a single ship or captain finding and exploiting a critical weakness in their enemy's strategy, or omnipotent intervention as happened in the Dominion War. In a straight fight with even numbers against a militarized faction with vessels on an equal scale, the Federation loses, badly.
The Federation's diverse society is also an exploitable weakness. Even on planets that have long been members of the Federation there are likely citizens who view independence as a viability. These assets can be exploited by an enemy to destabilize the Federation from within. Its tricky to fight an organized war on one front and an insurgency on the other. This wouldn't work among the other factions of the galaxy as while civil conflicts are common they are primarily over the desire for power rather than a desire for independence. An outside attacker would end up unifying the waring factions under the goal of defending their species rather than the faction itself.
The reason the federation didn't have a big stonking military is they didn't need one. There golden age fleet was enough to defeat the cardassians hard enough for the military government to fall, whilst leaving enough force in reserve to stop anyone other powers risking direct military involvement. This small military left them with enough resources to build an unmatched economic, scientific and diplomatic power base that would solve most problems on its own or be converted into kerb stomping military might, and back when things get serious.
Really good breakdown! Yeah I wish picard would give us more details on the state of the universe. Star Trek right now is so uni-foused.
A challenging recommendation would be the different governments from a show called Revolution. Only lasted 2 seasons but it had very original content
I think a good long hard look at the Battlestar Galactica reboot universe could be fun! Take a look that the ships both factions have in BSG:Deadlock coud be fun! And you could rank them as well, however that may look
nah, the original is far better.
Yeah I agree ☝🏼 I want to know next about the Exchange and The Orions when compared to the federation
Great video!! I think you should make comparisons between actual world powers, e.g., during the Cold War and today and those of a alternate world.
The fact that the Romulan star Empire couldn't evacuate its own capitol and recover from the list of that system, is pretty clear evidence that it was only ever a Regional power.
The only place that happens is in the tv show Picard. In all other tv shows, movies, books and computer games the Romulan Star Empire is huge .... that's why it's called a 'Star Empire', lol.
Anything beyond Voyager never happened, i refuse to accept it
Or it’s evidence of shitty writing
If it was only a regional power then their entry into the Dominion war wouldn't have tipped the balance. I'd argue that, with the loss of the Tal Shiar and combat losses in the war overall, this is what caused them to lose their dominant power status.
Also, it depends on how quickly their world was destroyed, a planet is huge in terms of numbers (billions of lives) and evacuation will always take time if your ships are located in various places throughout the quadrant. People forget that travel and organisation (even within the quadrant) takes time, and you'd need a huge fleet to evacuate a planet (even then it would take time).
Also, the loss of a capital city would be almost impossible for any power to recover from, it's their seat of government, heart of their economy and almost all bureaucracy runs through it. The last may not seem important, but all states run on bureaucracy, without it they fall apart.
@@AeneasGemini I totally agree with your first point about the Romulans. However the rest I feel might be wrong. They first found out the Romulan star would go nova in 2380 and it would take about seven years before it blew (Spock tried his red matter plan in 2387). That's more than enough time to evac everyone considering the huge amount of resources of the Empire. They never needed Starfleets help at all. As for the loss of their capitol world, although it would for a short time weaken them, it wouldn't be an incident that would destroy them as 'Picard' portrays. They would simply move the capitol to another of their worlds. They would have evac'ed all the leaders anyway so really it isn't a big deal at all. As people keep pointing out, if America lost Washington DC they would simply rebuild their capitol in another city in the USA, it wouldn't destroy the country.
I thought the Federation had some serious political troubbels over the years...
And the power of the Federation and their expanding nature will also draw time and again enemies against them, so that has also some drawbacks. If even the Klingons and Romulans for times work together to harm you, maybe that is not the best thing.
On the other hand - concern about the encroaching Federation is a sincere estimation of their power from in-universe sources who presumably know what they are worried about.
from the Dominion's perspective the Breens replaced the Cardassians so it's likely there is not much of a difference in terms of power. If the Breen would be significant weaker there would be no point in making an alliance, if they would be significant stronger they might turn out to be unreliable. at least they must have a force big enough to hold the territory the Dominion promised them to be rewareded with after the victory.
The script for this video was written fantastically.
That was fun, great job on ranking and giving reason!
Not that the Federation is not willing to develop cloaking but because of a treaty with Romulans not to develop one.