Maybe a video on how this Cardassia war for the Klingons, makes their feat in that TNG episode yesterday's Enterprise look impossible or down right fanfiction. Somehow beating the federation in some what if War if they can't even take out Cardassia. You could get a lot of joke material out of that one on how it would not be likely at all for the Klingons to beat the Federation if they can't even beat down some second rate power.
I would like to know what the best strategy for enforcing a powers borders if it has a neighbor(s) has cloaking technology. From my perspective, cloaked intruders present a paradox for the defender. If the defender acts aggressively and attempts to stop all intruders, the opposing power could use their ships to plot out holes in the sensor net by repeatedly probing the defenders border and keeping track of where the scouts get intercepted and how quickly. If a defender acts passively it gives the aggressor free reign to spy, insert saboteurs and build up an advanced fleet within the defender’s territory before the main attack commences. Diplomatically, it also seems that unless at least one of intruding vessels can be successfully intercepted and forced to drop cloak inside the defenders territory, then the intruding power can claim the cloaked ship that was detected belonged to some other power with cloaking technology. Sorry for the ungodly long post I guess my question is, how do you demonstrate your capability to intercept the cloaked ships and deter from venturing very far in your territory without tipping them off as to what your full anti cloak capabilities are?
Unsure if you answered these questions before but might as well ask than not. In TNG/Star trek Movies they never seemed to be able to have enough ships anywhere the borders, like the ships are always to spread out from each other its like they aren't even ready for an emergency situation. (Like how the Holy McCoy Name is the lore behind while their are never ships at earth As surely if they rely on their stations at the border with individual ships exploring the frontier then shouldn't most of the fleet be around the core worlds.) Surely their is a point to maintain small fleet groups as a rapid response force to situations even in peace time. Also the Federation fleets numbers (aka 2nd fleet, 9th Fleet etc) did they always exist or as plans where ships are given fleet number designations and sent to join a fleet when an order was given. (Is their also a similar procedure in the navies of past or present today.)
I tend to agree that the Cardassians probably have a Late Roman/Byzantine defensive arrangement. The borders are defended by lower-quality troops with older ships, the so-called "Limitanei or Thematic" forces. Their job is to slow the enemy advance until the "Palantini or Tagmatic" forces, best trained and equipped with the latest ships, can consolidate, plan and strike.
Great video! Love to see Drachinifel join you! I could hear you two talk the minutia of ship classes all day! For my part, I see the Klingons as a hollow power. Without the Federation alliance they are weak. They cannot sustain a long war because their whole system from politics to research to industry simply does not work. Feudal societies are poor at waging modern war. They lack of the centralization necessary for massive society wide total war.
What is that Patton said? Amateurs talks tactics, professionals talk logistics. I think the story of the War after the first week can come down to a simple question: "If you were stranded on an island and could only be re-supplied via airdrop, with weight restrictions and only during very tight windows in the weather, who would you rather plan and conduct that operation, Klingons or Cardassians?"
I hear a lot about Vor'cha and Neg'var but little to none of their workhorse, the K'vort. From what I understood is the Vor'cha was the result of Khitomer with Federation technology that made the Vor'Cha (and later Neg'Var) warp engines closer to Galaxy/Nebula class drives than traditional Kalinga. As for Cardasians the Pheonix Incident from "The Wounded" exposed the vulnerability of Cardasian military and the deficiencies of the Galor class Cruiser as one's aggressions were just casually shrugged aside by a Galaxy class and 2 Galors couldn't even hurt a Nebula class before being destroyed.
When we're talking about distances of up to 100 light-years (going by OFFICIAL Star Trek maps), it would be rather easy for the Klingons (who don't have singularity power cores) to over-stretch their supply lines in their misguided pursuit of "honor". It's also not out of the question for the Klingons to power through Cardassian space so quickly that they then have to deal with the Cardassian fleets that they passed-up. When fighting a war, it would be helpful to be thorough enough when making your push to make sure that the enemy doesn't end up *behind* your own front line in the process.
This happened no doubt. The Cardassians did not have time to consolidate their entire fleet. The big battle where Kira talks about the Klingons breaking through involved only a smaller portion of the frontiers, "Thematic" fleet. The cease fire was declared before the main "Tagmatic" Cardassian fleet could strike back.
I can not speak for Navy tactics, but infantry will clear a town; street by street, house by house, floor by floor and room by room. And they will leave a soldier behind here and there to ensure the enemy does not have an easy time of retaking the place and to also guide those allies coming from the rear. However in a Blitzkrieg, that is most definitely different. But you also have to make sure you have the men and the fire power to do such thorough room cleanings and to be able to leave a man here and there.
Venom, wonderful video. You and the ever brilliant Drachinifel, make a lot of good points. Indeed, the current war in Ukraine has parallels to this conflict with the Klingons in the role of the Russians. And I think you bring up points that don't occur to many because they aren't looking at it from the professional military or historian perspective. I did serve as a line officer during the Iraq and Afghan conflicts and am an historian so in my view, the Cardassian-Klingon Conflict has never been the blood-pie walk that most assumed. Indeed, the Klingons really put themselves in a bad position, which was the intent of the Founders. The distances involved, underestimating Cardassian strength and the Klingon neglect of support services meant that any war that lasted past a few months was going to be a massive logistical problem for them, and thats even with a friendly Federation. For a fight like this, the Cardassians never needed to be 'as strong' as the Klingons. They just needed to be strong enough to stalemate a portion of the Klingon fleet. Cardassia has also had some time to fortify their core worlds. Secondly, as you point out, the Klingons don't actually have a large advantage over the Cardassians in ship quality, other than the Vorchas which are few in number, or numbers considering they are fighting on the Cardassians home turf. Add to this the Cardassian reputation for tactical brilliance and inherent defensive advantages of the Cardassian space being fortified, and it becomes a situation where the Klingons do not have the front density necessary to end the War quickly. To win the War outright, the Klingons needed a knock-out blow and to take Cardassia Prime quickly before the majority of the Cardassian Fleet could consolidate. They almost accomplished this, but when they didn't the War was never ending quickly. The truth of the matter is that once the Klingons stopped, they were going to be involved in a quagmire. As I have written a number of times before, the state of the War after the Klingons declared War on the Federation was not at all favorable to the Klingons on the Cardassian front. Their initial gains only served to spread them thin with little strategic value (as you mention with Gowron's grandstanding). It is akin to Ludendorff's advances into empty space in the opening weeks of the 1918 German Spring Offensive; indeed, for Gowron, grabbing as much territory, even if not strategically worthwhile, is important for domestic political reasons, and as bargaining chips for a possible settlement down the road. But, the drawback to holding as much territory as possible is the diminution of an already over-stretched expeditionary force. And, as we know, mass is one of the principles of warfare the Klingons have possibly violated that by occupying worthless systems, which led to the later stalemate and logistics issues of maintaining large garrison forces. It is almost the exact situation the Russians faced just before the Ukrainian Kharkiv Counter-Offensive: Holding on to taken territories and fruitlessly throwing themselves at fortified zones so Putin can crow. At the end of a long supply line, equipped with a mix of antiques that weren't much better than the pedestrian Galor Class Type I or II and the odd Vorchas, that are actually almost matched by the newer class of Keldon Advanced (derived from the Obsidian Keldons) and other newer ships, without a pronounced numerically superiority, and faced with a determined and extremely clever enemy, the Klingons were bogged down in an attritional war in their own version of Ukraine. Indeed, I think things were so evenly matched by the months before the Dominion annexation of Cardassia, thanks to Klingon losses there and against the Federation, and with the Cardassian mobilization bearing fruit, that all it took to bust the front wide open for the Cardassians was a relatively small number of Dominion reinforcements (no more than 100 ships). [On a note on ship numbers, I think the numbers ships in theater are much higher than what you quoted, Venom. 100 ships was just the first wave. Given the numbers we saw in the first months of the Dominion War, I think we're looking at 500-600 Klingon ships in Cardassian space (they have to maintain a large fleet on the Romulan, and then Federation, border), opposed by initially, on that front, maybe 200-300 Cardassian ships, with another 400-500 elsewhere. When mobilized though, and after months of building, the Cardassians probably have closer to 1000 ships in the fight. During Operation Return, the Dominion had 1200 vessels, and around 40% were Cardassian and those ships were not the majority of their fleet either]. Again, the parallels to the Ukraine War abound. In the Izyum Front outside Kharkiv in September 2022, it was the reduction of Russian forces to 1:1, from roughly 1.5:1, on that front that precipitated wholesale defeat. When things are really, really deadlocked, even a small change in the balance can be momentous. I think, also, that the size of the Cardassian fleet is also underestimated. In the opening battles of the Dominion War, the Cardassian fleet was large. The Dominion did not rebuild the Cardassian fleet in the 2-3 months between the annexation and declaration of war; even by their standards they could not build that many ships so quickly after building a number of new shipyards from scratch. This infers that the Cardassian fleet was already on the upswing in numbers as part of an emergency building program that kicked off right after the Klingons invaded. All this means that the Klingons, who were not building ships quickly, but were actively losing ships against the Federation, were already in a deteriorating situation prior to the arrival of the Dominion. Now, that isn't to say the Cardassians were actively winning at this point. No, they were having it rough, but it is actually hard to say how bad things were by the end of the War. Dukat says Cardassia was on the edge of an abyss... but Dukat was also trying to justify himself and has always been dramatic. I don't think the Cardassians were on the edge of defeat, nor do I think they were winning. I think the real situation was somewhere in the middle where Cardassians could maintain a long-term stalemate, but the possibility of actually evicting the Klingons was small at the time. It would take years if ever.
Your Serene Highness! As always, a thought provoking, detailed post! I agree with Venom that the Klingons went looking for a modest fight and then botched it for all the reasons they've become a shadow of their formers selves. All the faults of their culture and way of thinking are on display. Old ships, because innovation requires valuing scientists, a neglect of support and less sexy non-warrior things leading to inevitable supply chain issues, fractious feudal political system trying to fight a modern war and a political leader who is selfish. It is entirely possible that had the Cardassians had time to prepare, they would have simply halted the invasion well before it even reached the inner Union. As it is, I think I might add to your, and Venom's point, which he alludes to somewhat that the Cardassians were in the midst of a technological leap and their fleet was rapidly modernizing. Those Obsidian Order Keldons, which were very good heavy cruisers did not happen in a vacuum. We see other signs that the Cardassians had been designing effective new weapons aside from that. The AI Missile from that Voyager episode was filled with advanced tech. And in the next year we see Cardassian weapons platforms and ships being every deadly. Also, we know the Obisidian Orden and the Tal Shiar had a technology exchange. The Central Command inherited the Orias shipyards with the destruction of the Order and undoubtedly incorporated all the advances found in those Super Keldons as well as all the tech the Romulans shared. Cardassian ships during the Klingon War could run the gamut from old crap like the Galor I to super deadly like the Obsidian Keldon, and even the Hutet. Too many words but the gist is the Cardassians are not the pushovers Gowron though they were.
@@janeghudjars3496 Yeah, I'm pretty sure that the Klingon Empire is rather non-functional. If everyone is a warrior, who does all the rest of the work? And if there is a massive, seething under-class, how quickly do they rebel when things go poorly? There is that ENT episode, and a later episode of TNG, that reveal that Klingon bio-medical tech is centuries behind since they don't value saving lives. We know from that other TNG episode with metaphasic shielding that scientists are not valued much either. We know from DS9 that the Klingon economy is very primitive since working with numbers and ledgers is also "dishonorable." It is somewhat surprising the Klingons get anything done. Their support services are probably non-existant.
It speaks volumes about the quality of DS9 and 1990s Trek in general that two guys born after DS9 went off the air are still having engaging discussions about Cardassia and the Dominion war in 2023.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I’m just curious, how did you get into DS9? I remember watching it when it first broadcast back in the 90s. How are younger fans getting their first exposure to these old shows?
I feel like the reason the Klingons aren't properly utilizing the Vor'Cha is because all the captains of them were originally Bird of Prey captains; it be like giving a WW2 submarine captain a modern cruise missile equipped submarine, he's not going to be able to use the sub to its fullest effect because he has no way of knowing its capabilities. I believe the main reason for this is because of the decentralized nature of the Klingon Empire at this point in the story. We see that the great-houses of the empire had very little loyalty to the High Council and even after the civil war ended their was still distrust among the victors. Basically, the government's military designed and built a new ship but didn't tell any of the great-house's militaries how to use the new ship. Think of it as giving a caveman an AK-47, he's gonna use it like a club if you don't show him how it works or how to use it and if he does figure out how to use it without your help it will be by pure accident and he won't be able to reload it. And I think this is what happened to the Klingons, why tell people who's loyalty your unsure of how to use a weapon they could turn on you. I believe the reason for the stall in Klingon ship design and development has to do with the empire diverting resources to the extermination of the Tribbles. In Star Trek:Deep Space Nine we learn that the Klingon Empire was ecologically devastated by the Tribbles and an armada was dispatched to obliterate the Tribble home world and that all surviving Tribbles were hunted down and eliminated. This kind of disaster would definitely affect the flow of resources within the empire and had a negative effect on other sectors of the Klingon economy and distribution of funds and scientific research. It makes sense that in a mass famine space ship design would take a backseat to increasing agricultural output to recover from this catastrophe. Then in Star Trek:6:The Undiscovered Country we see another disaster over take the empire when their primary energy production facility exploded inevitably causing more setbacks and resource drains on an already struggling economy.
Yeah we'll touch on that later. But yeah likely every klingon started out on a BOP and so that's how they think every ship should operate. Its an interesting relationship between perceived Requirement and actual requirement. How the previous generation of equipment shapes the expectations of the next.
As I said in an earlier video, the Klingon houses are more akin to Juntas with each family holding their own personal warship to be called upon by the chancellor in times if war like a Knight swearing fealty to a King. Now as resources to make ships become more expensive the K'vort becomes the mainstay of the houses as it is plentiful and versatile while the Vor'cha is more under the control of the Klingon Emperor who is neutral during civil war struggles for Chancellorship but will be available for battle against an external enemy. If anything Vor'cha class isn't commanded by a single family but by multiple families likely in a mutual alliance of protection from more power families who can afford their own warships.
It’s also likely a matter of doctrine. Facing the disasters you describe it’s important to recognize that the B’rel probably saved the Klingon Empire. The Klingons didn’t just have the Federation to worry about. They had the Romulans, the Gorn, and God knows who else on their borders. The Empire was likely forced to adopt a doctrine of raiding their neighbors and ambushing retaliatory incursions for which the B’rel was well suited. Having built their doctrine around around that approach for decades, switching to a doctrine more suited for larger vessels would be difficult.
The Neg'Var for sure was used to house the VIPs of the fleet and to F something up. The Vor' cha, my favorite of the modern fleet was a nice sleek assault ship or multi-purpose uses. I wish we got more variety of Cardi ship designs during DS9 (also my fav.). Considering how much the Cardassians were involved with DS9, I really wished for more to see on screen especially during all the battle sequences! Thanks for posting, love the channel and content. I'm always in shock on seeing others who love this material as much if not more than I ever have! 🖖
Great video guys, it was really enjoyable to hear you both discussing the lore like this with Drachinifel’s historical naval knowledge adding another layer to the discussion. Prior to the Dominion War my understanding was that the Klingons were a bit like the Confederacy in the US civil war. They have a great martial culture, have some skilled and talented leaders and some good if not exactly cutting edge units. Initially they are going to do very well in a conflict but their disunified command structure and limited logistic structures means that the longer a conflict goes on the weaker they are going to get as they can’t replace their losses quickly enough. The Romulans on the other hand are much more organized and their ships are very powerful but they are principally designed for surprise massive alfa strikes where they can ambush or otherwise catch their opponents off guard. In a fleet action they are a lot weaker as they might be able to ambush the first line of enemy ships but they are then going to be outflanked and outmaneuvered by other enemy ships. With their ships built for ambush/raids they struggle if they have to defend an outpost or fixed position. Added to this their reputation for treachery means they struggle to maintain outposts or friendly ports away from their own borders which further hampers their ability to project power beyond their own borders. The Federation are about like the UK army (not the navy) during the 1800’s. They have massive industrial infrastructure compared to everyone else and they have some good officers but while they don’t have anyone buying commissions or promotions a lot of their regular officer core either lack the right mindset to fight a war or don’t have the training and are quite ineffective. They start off weaker than you might think but they have the infrastructure to replace their losses and gradually as the war goes on the more combat oriented types good at fighting rise to positions of command and gradually they become a juggernaut. With the Cardassians being relatively resource poor compared to the other big powers it would make sense that they really important systems would be carefully protected with fixed position weapons and stations. We saw the allied fleets struggling with a Cardassian defence grid during the Dominion War. This would explain how they were able to fight the Federation to a standstill during the pre DS9 era during the border skirmishes. Starfleet probably could have punched a whole through those fixed defense's but they would have to pull their top of the line units together to do so and there was not the political appetite to do that. So while the Cardassians could not hope to beat the Federation defeating the Cardassians property would have required more resources than the Federation were prepared to commit in a conflict that while important to the border colonies was hardly life or death for the Federation as a whole.
The Klingons were poster children for stagnation. Its insane how 90% of their fleet are century old models. And even the Vorcha is a product of technology exchange with the Federation. Also, I think I may add that the Klingon Invasion was the best thing for Cardassia. Like any long serving authoritarian government, the Central Command grew old and complacent. I feel like the modernization program that started as a result of the Federation War and the emergence of the Dominion only really got kicked into high gear when the Dutapa Council took full power and fresh faces came to the front. Cardassian designs were actually very good. We have seen bits and pieces of what they are capable of even before the Dominion War. Systems like the ATR-4107 was very advanced even if they could not build many of them. With the Dutapa Council embracing new ideas and impetus to new weapons the Cardassian fleet would be continually improving while the Klingons have been more or less stagnant for decades.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Probably not. Their supply situation is probably abysmal. They don't value scientists, economists, doctors, etc. It takes a very devoted and concerted effort to make supply and logistics work. The US military does a great job but it requires five support soldiers for every line soldier. Every stage of replenishment is planned to the most minute detail. Every cubic centimeter of transport space is planned and accounted for in American replenishment pushes. It was the bane of my existence in Iraq. In contrast, the Russians do not prioritize support, don't plan for it, and their transportation of replenishment is haphazard at best. And we can see the consequences. Cannot see the Klingons being any different. On the other hand, the Cardassians are obsessive about detail.
29:22 Considering the Klingons are to some degree feudal, i think that they might be indirectly in play through Levies. So the KDF goes to war and tells the houses "We want every fifth Bird of Prey and every thrid Vor'Cha you have and their crews (who will be assigned to different ships and to some degrees mixed, as to prevent one house fleet from coordinating an attack on another) and if you have trained and maintained them well and disciplined your crews well enough to not fight against the other houses while serving with us, you will even get them back when the war is over." So the KDF's Core is probably protecting the chancellor and Quonos etc, while the shuffled House Levies are the backbone of the actual Strike Force. The KDF then goes ahead and makes it clear that whoever turns against a member of another house while serving with this fleet brings great dishonor on their house, as they are essentially a traitor - attacking a fellow Klingon in the face of a common enemy. The KDF also makes it clear that losses will be replenished from the reserves of whatever house provided the lost ships/soldiers, so that the KDF actually gets the good troops that have a better chance of surviving the war, because keeping the KDF losses to a minimum means keeping house losses to a minimum.
I remember seeing that IRL Vor'ca model plans were used to make the original AGT Klingon ships that become the Nag"var in DS9 makes you wonder how long it was in development for and if the Nag'var was a compromise design considering all the new designs coming out of the Federation in the 2360s and 70s
Love how you're taking your channel to the next level. It's cool to see you actually in real life talking about Trek in person. It's really cool. Kudos to you and to your people your crew. Thank you for doing what you do and here in the states. I'm in the state of Michigan and we love your work. Keep it up!
The klingon invasion fleet is definitely a mixed force. ( defence forces and house fleets) in ( looking for permanent in all the wrong places) grilka says to quark her house has lost a lot of warships and freighters in the war . Also, in the way of the warrior part two. Dax says in the briefing. Gowron had committed a third of his forces. The imperial defence forces a quarter of the total. Fleet . A third is about 400 ships . The klingon fleet is said to be 6500 ships. ( with a significant number of them being military transport or fighters) and birds of prey . I'd argue it's a third of the idf and two-thirds made up of the great house fleets. They had almost a hundred or 80s ships st ds9 .plus the invasion forces. Two years later, after the dominion drove them out, they still had a couple of hundred ships ( in the expeditionary fleet), but then they eill have taken losses in the federation conflict. . Dialogue suggests the conflict lasted 3 mouths. The klingons invaded , and it took the bulk of starfleet to contain them . And it took some time for the federation fleet to respond. But the klingons will have hone into war time production from the beginning of the war . It was protected to take about ten years to recover its fleet size and economic situation. They suffered massive losses. In a 4 years period. About 3 quarters of their fleet. . Their economy would be exhausted. But they will have gotten reparations in the treaty of bajor.
I listen to both of your channels, and to get to hear your collaborations is the best. Please keep doing these as listening to fans with historical knowledge is my bread and butter.
At the 19 minute mark but didn’t want to forget so apologies if it’s addressed later on, but wasn’t a big part of the Klingon slowdown because Sisko & Co were feeding the Cardassians intelligence so they could better respond to and overmatch individual Klingon incursions and prevent a steamrolling?
Beaches are where most amphibious invasions occur, so that could be how it relates. Yeah, the Klingons in the 24th century were by shadow of themselves. The Cardassians were the only nearby nation that was strong enough that a war would be long and "honorable" (unlike the Talarians) but weak enough that victory was the most likely option as opposed to a bloody stalemate (against the Tholians) or a near-certain defeat (against the UFP or Romulans). Yet at the same time, inter-house factional rivalry, poor supply chains, the fact that Cardassian fleet's "turtling" doctrine/design for its coreworlds just so happened to adequately counter the Klingon fleet's "wolfpack" doctrine/design, the Klingons not wanting to anger the UFP too much, and Gowron's ego I agree would all contribute to slow downing the Klingon's ability to advance into Cardassian territory after the blitzing of the borders/frontiers. A shame about the Camera batteries. I look forward to Part 2 when it releases. Also, cool face reveal. I didn't know you wore glasses. Neat shirt as well.
Great conversation guys, I have long enjoyed both of your channels and love that you have been keeping up this collaborations..... cool that you got to hang out in person. Cheers from California!
Gowron's arrival with the negh'var was like he was expecting a kinda blitzkrieg against the cardassians and was gonna use it in a victory parade as a kinda "we didn't even use our best ship" Always thought the Klingons fleet was a case of if it isn't broken don't fix it hence the 100yr + ship design just refit the tech every few years
You know it does put that whole alternate universe war where the Klingons were beating the Federation into a whole new light though, does this DS9 campaign actually make that war now nonsense in terms of what happened?
@@crownprincesebastianjohano7069 Maybe without a Borg wolf 319 battle happening due to the war, The Federation was not ready for a full on war. But yet again that does not hold water either due to the fact the Federation should have been easier to adapt to Klingons than fighting the borg was.
Commanders who hate each other can be a good thing. Pretty sure Monty and Patton hated one another yet their rivalry drove them to do great things together.
My Hot Take, the Klingons were more of a threat when they were full of the Augment Klingons during the TOS era. The Augment Gene made them craftier & smarter.
It also could be that Gowrons stop his invasion is because he has a sudden hostile Federation now near his supple lines and plus losses the Klingons took trying storm DS9 was gave him pause not if the Cardassia had strong defense. Because from I remember from the that episode the Klingons once they blasted through the main Cardassia fleet they were able role up rest of the Cardassia territory.
A good point is just how far Cardassian space is from the Klingon Empire? If there is significant time and distance just getting to border, and of course, penetrating deep into that rival empire, coordination is just that much more of an issue. Just how powerful the potential force of the Klingon Empire is seems to be something of an unknown. The Federation would seem to have beaten them in practically every way in their long cold war; and the Praxis event leading to a long stagnation in military hardware. Most Next Gen shows support this, yet the alternative timeline of "Yesterday's Enterprise" shows a possible situation of the Klingon Empire on the likely successful campaign to defeat the Federation. While much might be said that at some pivotal moment, Starfleet 'Zigged when it should have Zagged', that the situation exists at all suggests that the Klingons retain considerable potentials. Likewise, "All Good Things" shows us a Klingon Empire victorious against the Romulans in a not so impossible future. House forces should not be underestimated for how much they might add and detract from the central government forces; even if those houses might be a reason why there are so many B'rel and K'tinga classes still flying around?
I'd always figured the D-7s we see in DS9 and beyond are new builds. Not ships that had been continuously refurbed for the previous 100 something years. And as new builds, they're up to modern standards. Kinda like an F-15EX looks like an F-15A but in reality is nothing like that 50yr old variant.
I wonder if the Klingons did built at least a few in number B-10 Battleships, could those be very powerful monitors if they're given the K'Tinga Modernization?
Neg'var was one off at first. Later models lacked the undernount siege guns. Klingons don't fix what works and is not broken; just refit as necessary. Advanced romulan ships could repell the Klingons. Cardassians were technology inferior. Supply line issues were a problem for the Klingons given the distance from their territory, and lack of federation support for the invasion, made it difficult. Also ended up pushed the cardassians to the dominion.
The difference between Cardassian and Klingon technology is not that pronounced. The issue for the Cardassians is that they couldn't mass produce their most advanced weapon designs to the point every ship was refitted with their better weapons. But the clearly had very powerful new weapons developed prior to the Dominon annexation because some of their ships were much more effective than others, they had already fielded the Dreadnaught Missile, and they were able to refit their fleet in the few months between annexation and the War starting. But, then again, the Klingons also couldn't field newer ships at the rate of the Feds or Romulans, if they could their fleet would be filled with newer ships instead of mostly old ones. Indeed, if it weren't for the Federation alliance technology exchange, I think the Klingons would probably be at the same tech level as the Cardassians: 30 years behind generally.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 It was in the typhoon cobra video, released like 2 weeks ago, the audible ad has him walking out of his house and down the street wearing the same hoodie he's got on here.
I have a few comments first is I think Klingon ships are like some of the more modern military for us is a hull that can be upgraded easily over time. Second, I wonder if when the datapa council was being rescued that the klingons were boarding the ship. They do that all the time. No matter what you say, Cardassians should be better close combat fighters than most Federation. Third Cardassian ships are "newer," but I would argue the tech wasn't as good. The final comment is that to agree with the defenses, if we look at the last century, the klingons have not had to deal with large-scale fortifications. They have had Romulan raiders and then a civil war against Klingons. So, most of the experience is small-scale ship fighting. I mean, after way of the warrior it's mostly just bird of prey attacks we see. This is exactly the type and style of combat they have had for decades.
I think if we are talking about vorcha and kamarag and boreth they are definitely built with upgrades in mind like modern MBTs but the older ships are more like t54 or t62 a little harder to fully upgrade
The Cardassian War makes those alternate universes where the Klingons going to war with the Federatation and winning in the 24th Century look absolutely laughable.
Yeah it does don't it, Unless maybe in that universe because the war happened before Borg contact, the Federation never got that shock the borg give them that pushes them to arm up and build new warships dedicated to fighting Borgs.
@@RomanHistoryFan476AD Even before then it was clear that the Federation was the stronger of the two powers and that the Klingon Empire was more or less slowly becoming a vassal state to the Federation. All of this was happening before the Borg and Wolf 359 and it paralleled the relationship that the United States hat to Russia after the USSR fell.
@@robertbarrows6687 So what could have changed in that Alt timeline then? Did the Federation go overboard with the whole peaceful thing then. Where the Romulans supporting the Klingons but the episode forget that detail?
I think we're guilty here of applying human concepts to the klingons. I think it's as simple as, Gauron is now high Chancellor. He is the strongest, his house is personal battleship is now therfore the best. So other houses imitate his battleship. Or maybe it's just a simple as he read tools everyone to have his battleship and he chooses who gets to have one..... 🤷
Is Lore reloaded still inserting too much modern day politics into his videos? I use to watch him but after a while his videos became just unbearable since he always had to put something in there about democrats or republicans and it ruined the Lore to me. His own arrogance on some topics got eye rolling for me.
@@SuperGamefreak18 To one's own I guess. I just struggle to watch him because it got to preachy and the videos seemed to spend more time talking about our real world than the actual lore. Calling Sisko a war criminal was the final line for me.
Re Klingons always looking for a fight to recapture the good old days, I think this directly lead to as you postulated the Klingon attack running out of steam. Every klingon wants to be the brave warrior winning glory for his house from the command chair of a bird of prey or battle cruiser, or leading his troops into the breach of an enemy's fortifications disruptor and funny shaped sharp object in hand, and these things while being good things win battles not wars. Logistics wins wars and no scion of a reputable house wants to be a logistician. The stores clerk, the supply ship captain, the munitions factory worker the convoy comadore wins no glory for self or house, and the weak, the dishonored, and failures who failed to have the decency to die honorably while failing are relegated to such posts setting up a situation where they lack the professional logistical support and fleet train required to fight a prolonged conflict. Combined with the general decline of the empire post Kirk ear you have what was a first tier superpower fading into near peer status trying to beat on a 2nd tier regional power and getting more of a fight than they expected, shades of teh russian federation in the current Ukraine war.
yeah when i come to covering the klingon fleet in TOS and TMP one of the things that became very clear was that they knew their logistics. logistics was their big failure in the 4 years war and they made sure to correct it. but with over 125 years since their last expeditionary campaign the klingons would eventually forget all those lessons
I love the thought that Gowron actually looked for an acceptable target before he dove into war. And of course it's the Cardassians. They were designed to be the loser faction that fights with atrocity to keep up, so they're a full on Space Nazi hate sink.
Pinned comment for futher video suggestions on this topic.
Maybe a video on how this Cardassia war for the Klingons, makes their feat in that TNG episode yesterday's Enterprise look impossible or down right fanfiction. Somehow beating the federation in some what if War if they can't even take out Cardassia.
You could get a lot of joke material out of that one on how it would not be likely at all for the Klingons to beat the Federation if they can't even beat down some second rate power.
I would like to know what the best strategy for enforcing a powers borders if it has a neighbor(s) has cloaking technology. From my perspective, cloaked intruders present a paradox for the defender. If the defender acts aggressively and attempts to stop all intruders, the opposing power could use their ships to plot out holes in the sensor net by repeatedly probing the defenders border and keeping track of where the scouts get intercepted and how quickly. If a defender acts passively it gives the aggressor free reign to spy, insert saboteurs and build up an advanced fleet within the defender’s territory before the main attack commences. Diplomatically, it also seems that unless at least one of intruding vessels can be successfully intercepted and forced to drop cloak inside the defenders territory, then the intruding power can claim the cloaked ship that was detected belonged to some other power with cloaking technology. Sorry for the ungodly long post I guess my question is, how do you demonstrate your capability to intercept the cloaked ships and deter from venturing very far in your territory without tipping them off as to what your full anti cloak capabilities are?
The B12 Qeh’Ral is actaully from armada 2
Unsure if you answered these questions before but might as well ask than not.
In TNG/Star trek Movies they never seemed to be able to have enough ships anywhere the borders, like the ships are always to spread out from each other its like they aren't even ready for an emergency situation. (Like how the Holy McCoy Name is the lore behind while their are never ships at earth As surely if they rely on their stations at the border with individual ships exploring the frontier then shouldn't most of the fleet be around the core worlds.)
Surely their is a point to maintain small fleet groups as a rapid response force to situations even in peace time.
Also the Federation fleets numbers (aka 2nd fleet, 9th Fleet etc) did they always exist or as plans where ships are given fleet number designations and sent to join a fleet when an order was given. (Is their also a similar procedure in the navies of past or present today.)
How far did the Klingon's go with bringing back older ships in the Dominion war
I tend to agree that the Cardassians probably have a Late Roman/Byzantine defensive arrangement. The borders are defended by lower-quality troops with older ships, the so-called "Limitanei or Thematic" forces. Their job is to slow the enemy advance until the "Palantini or Tagmatic" forces, best trained and equipped with the latest ships, can consolidate, plan and strike.
Yeah ekoor and kulinor on border patrol. With galors closer to home.
Great video! Love to see Drachinifel join you! I could hear you two talk the minutia of ship classes all day! For my part, I see the Klingons as a hollow power. Without the Federation alliance they are weak. They cannot sustain a long war because their whole system from politics to research to industry simply does not work. Feudal societies are poor at waging modern war. They lack of the centralization necessary for massive society wide total war.
Thank I can assure you. We could talk about it all day ;)
What is that Patton said? Amateurs talks tactics, professionals talk logistics. I think the story of the War after the first week can come down to a simple question: "If you were stranded on an island and could only be re-supplied via airdrop, with weight restrictions and only during very tight windows in the weather, who would you rather plan and conduct that operation, Klingons or Cardassians?"
I hear a lot about Vor'cha and Neg'var but little to none of their workhorse, the K'vort. From what I understood is the Vor'cha was the result of Khitomer with Federation technology that made the Vor'Cha (and later Neg'Var) warp engines closer to Galaxy/Nebula class drives than traditional Kalinga.
As for Cardasians the Pheonix Incident from "The Wounded" exposed the vulnerability of Cardasian military and the deficiencies of the Galor class Cruiser as one's aggressions were just casually shrugged aside by a Galaxy class and 2 Galors couldn't even hurt a Nebula class before being destroyed.
When we're talking about distances of up to 100 light-years (going by OFFICIAL Star Trek maps), it would be rather easy for the Klingons (who don't have singularity power cores) to over-stretch their supply lines in their misguided pursuit of "honor". It's also not out of the question for the Klingons to power through Cardassian space so quickly that they then have to deal with the Cardassian fleets that they passed-up. When fighting a war, it would be helpful to be thorough enough when making your push to make sure that the enemy doesn't end up *behind* your own front line in the process.
This happened no doubt. The Cardassians did not have time to consolidate their entire fleet. The big battle where Kira talks about the Klingons breaking through involved only a smaller portion of the frontiers, "Thematic" fleet. The cease fire was declared before the main "Tagmatic" Cardassian fleet could strike back.
I can not speak for Navy tactics, but infantry will clear a town; street by street, house by house, floor by floor and room by room. And they will leave a soldier behind here and there to ensure the enemy does not have an easy time of retaking the place and to also guide those allies coming from the rear. However in a Blitzkrieg, that is most definitely different.
But you also have to make sure you have the men and the fire power to do such thorough room cleanings and to be able to leave a man here and there.
This is actually how I pictured him, almost exactly, minus the glasses. 😅
Venom, wonderful video. You and the ever brilliant Drachinifel, make a lot of good points. Indeed, the current war in Ukraine has parallels to this conflict with the Klingons in the role of the Russians. And I think you bring up points that don't occur to many because they aren't looking at it from the professional military or historian perspective. I did serve as a line officer during the Iraq and Afghan conflicts and am an historian so in my view, the Cardassian-Klingon Conflict has never been the blood-pie walk that most assumed. Indeed, the Klingons really put themselves in a bad position, which was the intent of the Founders. The distances involved, underestimating Cardassian strength and the Klingon neglect of support services meant that any war that lasted past a few months was going to be a massive logistical problem for them, and thats even with a friendly Federation. For a fight like this, the Cardassians never needed to be 'as strong' as the Klingons. They just needed to be strong enough to stalemate a portion of the Klingon fleet. Cardassia has also had some time to fortify their core worlds.
Secondly, as you point out, the Klingons don't actually have a large advantage over the Cardassians in ship quality, other than the Vorchas which are few in number, or numbers considering they are fighting on the Cardassians home turf. Add to this the Cardassian reputation for tactical brilliance and inherent defensive advantages of the Cardassian space being fortified, and it becomes a situation where the Klingons do not have the front density necessary to end the War quickly. To win the War outright, the Klingons needed a knock-out blow and to take Cardassia Prime quickly before the majority of the Cardassian Fleet could consolidate. They almost accomplished this, but when they didn't the War was never ending quickly. The truth of the matter is that once the Klingons stopped, they were going to be involved in a quagmire. As I have written a number of times before, the state of the War after the Klingons declared War on the Federation was not at all favorable to the Klingons on the Cardassian front. Their initial gains only served to spread them thin with little strategic value (as you mention with Gowron's grandstanding). It is akin to Ludendorff's advances into empty space in the opening weeks of the 1918 German Spring Offensive; indeed, for Gowron, grabbing as much territory, even if not strategically worthwhile, is important for domestic political reasons, and as bargaining chips for a possible settlement down the road. But, the drawback to holding as much territory as possible is the diminution of an already over-stretched expeditionary force. And, as we know, mass is one of the principles of warfare the Klingons have possibly violated that by occupying worthless systems, which led to the later stalemate and logistics issues of maintaining large garrison forces. It is almost the exact situation the Russians faced just before the Ukrainian Kharkiv Counter-Offensive: Holding on to taken territories and fruitlessly throwing themselves at fortified zones so Putin can crow.
At the end of a long supply line, equipped with a mix of antiques that weren't much better than the pedestrian Galor Class Type I or II and the odd Vorchas, that are actually almost matched by the newer class of Keldon Advanced (derived from the Obsidian Keldons) and other newer ships, without a pronounced numerically superiority, and faced with a determined and extremely clever enemy, the Klingons were bogged down in an attritional war in their own version of Ukraine. Indeed, I think things were so evenly matched by the months before the Dominion annexation of Cardassia, thanks to Klingon losses there and against the Federation, and with the Cardassian mobilization bearing fruit, that all it took to bust the front wide open for the Cardassians was a relatively small number of Dominion reinforcements (no more than 100 ships). [On a note on ship numbers, I think the numbers ships in theater are much higher than what you quoted, Venom. 100 ships was just the first wave. Given the numbers we saw in the first months of the Dominion War, I think we're looking at 500-600 Klingon ships in Cardassian space (they have to maintain a large fleet on the Romulan, and then Federation, border), opposed by initially, on that front, maybe 200-300 Cardassian ships, with another 400-500 elsewhere. When mobilized though, and after months of building, the Cardassians probably have closer to 1000 ships in the fight. During Operation Return, the Dominion had 1200 vessels, and around 40% were Cardassian and those ships were not the majority of their fleet either].
Again, the parallels to the Ukraine War abound. In the Izyum Front outside Kharkiv in September 2022, it was the reduction of Russian forces to 1:1, from roughly 1.5:1, on that front that precipitated wholesale defeat. When things are really, really deadlocked, even a small change in the balance can be momentous. I think, also, that the size of the Cardassian fleet is also underestimated. In the opening battles of the Dominion War, the Cardassian fleet was large. The Dominion did not rebuild the Cardassian fleet in the 2-3 months between the annexation and declaration of war; even by their standards they could not build that many ships so quickly after building a number of new shipyards from scratch. This infers that the Cardassian fleet was already on the upswing in numbers as part of an emergency building program that kicked off right after the Klingons invaded. All this means that the Klingons, who were not building ships quickly, but were actively losing ships against the Federation, were already in a deteriorating situation prior to the arrival of the Dominion.
Now, that isn't to say the Cardassians were actively winning at this point. No, they were having it rough, but it is actually hard to say how bad things were by the end of the War. Dukat says Cardassia was on the edge of an abyss... but Dukat was also trying to justify himself and has always been dramatic. I don't think the Cardassians were on the edge of defeat, nor do I think they were winning. I think the real situation was somewhere in the middle where Cardassians could maintain a long-term stalemate, but the possibility of actually evicting the Klingons was small at the time. It would take years if ever.
Your Serene Highness! As always, a thought provoking, detailed post! I agree with Venom that the Klingons went looking for a modest fight and then botched it for all the reasons they've become a shadow of their formers selves. All the faults of their culture and way of thinking are on display. Old ships, because innovation requires valuing scientists, a neglect of support and less sexy non-warrior things leading to inevitable supply chain issues, fractious feudal political system trying to fight a modern war and a political leader who is selfish. It is entirely possible that had the Cardassians had time to prepare, they would have simply halted the invasion well before it even reached the inner Union. As it is, I think I might add to your, and Venom's point, which he alludes to somewhat that the Cardassians were in the midst of a technological leap and their fleet was rapidly modernizing. Those Obsidian Order Keldons, which were very good heavy cruisers did not happen in a vacuum. We see other signs that the Cardassians had been designing effective new weapons aside from that. The AI Missile from that Voyager episode was filled with advanced tech. And in the next year we see Cardassian weapons platforms and ships being every deadly. Also, we know the Obisidian Orden and the Tal Shiar had a technology exchange. The Central Command inherited the Orias shipyards with the destruction of the Order and undoubtedly incorporated all the advances found in those Super Keldons as well as all the tech the Romulans shared. Cardassian ships during the Klingon War could run the gamut from old crap like the Galor I to super deadly like the Obsidian Keldon, and even the Hutet. Too many words but the gist is the Cardassians are not the pushovers Gowron though they were.
@@janeghudjars3496 Yeah, I'm pretty sure that the Klingon Empire is rather non-functional. If everyone is a warrior, who does all the rest of the work? And if there is a massive, seething under-class, how quickly do they rebel when things go poorly? There is that ENT episode, and a later episode of TNG, that reveal that Klingon bio-medical tech is centuries behind since they don't value saving lives. We know from that other TNG episode with metaphasic shielding that scientists are not valued much either. We know from DS9 that the Klingon economy is very primitive since working with numbers and ledgers is also "dishonorable." It is somewhat surprising the Klingons get anything done. Their support services are probably non-existant.
Someone needs a Drachinifel Playlist on their channel.
It speaks volumes about the quality of DS9 and 1990s Trek in general that two guys born after DS9 went off the air are still having engaging discussions about Cardassia and the Dominion war in 2023.
Yeah plenty to dig into.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I’m just curious, how did you get into DS9? I remember watching it when it first broadcast back in the 90s. How are younger fans getting their first exposure to these old shows?
@@joeg1915 initially it was clips of the battles on YT then i started asking for the DVD box sets for christmas/birthdays ect
Did not expect this line of discussion about the Star Trek universe, on this series a history lesson on ships of the line. Very refreshing I must say.
I feel like the reason the Klingons aren't properly utilizing the Vor'Cha is because all the captains of them were originally Bird of Prey captains; it be like giving a WW2 submarine captain a modern cruise missile equipped submarine, he's not going to be able to use the sub to its fullest effect because he has no way of knowing its capabilities. I believe the main reason for this is because of the decentralized nature of the Klingon Empire at this point in the story. We see that the great-houses of the empire had very little loyalty to the High Council and even after the civil war ended their was still distrust among the victors. Basically, the government's military designed and built a new ship but didn't tell any of the great-house's militaries how to use the new ship. Think of it as giving a caveman an AK-47, he's gonna use it like a club if you don't show him how it works or how to use it and if he does figure out how to use it without your help it will be by pure accident and he won't be able to reload it. And I think this is what happened to the Klingons, why tell people who's loyalty your unsure of how to use a weapon they could turn on you. I believe the reason for the stall in Klingon ship design and development has to do with the empire diverting resources to the extermination of the Tribbles. In Star Trek:Deep Space Nine we learn that the Klingon Empire was ecologically devastated by the Tribbles and an armada was dispatched to obliterate the Tribble home world and that all surviving Tribbles were hunted down and eliminated. This kind of disaster would definitely affect the flow of resources within the empire and had a negative effect on other sectors of the Klingon economy and distribution of funds and scientific research. It makes sense that in a mass famine space ship design would take a backseat to increasing agricultural output to recover from this catastrophe. Then in Star Trek:6:The Undiscovered Country we see another disaster over take the empire when their primary energy production facility exploded inevitably causing more setbacks and resource drains on an already struggling economy.
Yeah we'll touch on that later. But yeah likely every klingon started out on a BOP and so that's how they think every ship should operate. Its an interesting relationship between perceived Requirement and actual requirement. How the previous generation of equipment shapes the expectations of the next.
As I said in an earlier video, the Klingon houses are more akin to Juntas with each family holding their own personal warship to be called upon by the chancellor in times if war like a Knight swearing fealty to a King.
Now as resources to make ships become more expensive the K'vort becomes the mainstay of the houses as it is plentiful and versatile while the Vor'cha is more under the control of the Klingon Emperor who is neutral during civil war struggles for Chancellorship but will be available for battle against an external enemy.
If anything Vor'cha class isn't commanded by a single family but by multiple families likely in a mutual alliance of protection from more power families who can afford their own warships.
It’s also likely a matter of doctrine. Facing the disasters you describe it’s important to recognize that the B’rel probably saved the Klingon Empire. The Klingons didn’t just have the Federation to worry about. They had the Romulans, the Gorn, and God knows who else on their borders. The Empire was likely forced to adopt a doctrine of raiding their neighbors and ambushing retaliatory incursions for which the B’rel was well suited. Having built their doctrine around around that approach for decades, switching to a doctrine more suited for larger vessels would be difficult.
The Neg'Var for sure was used to house the VIPs of the fleet and to F something up. The Vor' cha, my favorite of the modern fleet was a nice sleek assault ship or multi-purpose uses.
I wish we got more variety of Cardi ship designs during DS9 (also my fav.). Considering how much the Cardassians were involved with DS9, I really wished for more to see on screen especially during all the battle sequences!
Thanks for posting, love the channel and content. I'm always in shock on seeing others who love this material as much if not more than I ever have! 🖖
Yeah. Something I've tried to do is add to the variety of cardassian ships.
Yo, face reveal, lol. Anyway glad you had fun together at tiger day and thank you both so much for all the Star Trek and Naval History content.
Great video guys, it was really enjoyable to hear you both discussing the lore like this with Drachinifel’s historical naval knowledge adding another layer to the discussion.
Prior to the Dominion War my understanding was that the Klingons were a bit like the Confederacy in the US civil war. They have a great martial culture, have some skilled and talented leaders and some good if not exactly cutting edge units. Initially they are going to do very well in a conflict but their disunified command structure and limited logistic structures means that the longer a conflict goes on the weaker they are going to get as they can’t replace their losses quickly enough.
The Romulans on the other hand are much more organized and their ships are very powerful but they are principally designed for surprise massive alfa strikes where they can ambush or otherwise catch their opponents off guard. In a fleet action they are a lot weaker as they might be able to ambush the first line of enemy ships but they are then going to be outflanked and outmaneuvered by other enemy ships. With their ships built for ambush/raids they struggle if they have to defend an outpost or fixed position. Added to this their reputation for treachery means they struggle to maintain outposts or friendly ports away from their own borders which further hampers their ability to project power beyond their own borders.
The Federation are about like the UK army (not the navy) during the 1800’s. They have massive industrial infrastructure compared to everyone else and they have some good officers but while they don’t have anyone buying commissions or promotions a lot of their regular officer core either lack the right mindset to fight a war or don’t have the training and are quite ineffective. They start off weaker than you might think but they have the infrastructure to replace their losses and gradually as the war goes on the more combat oriented types good at fighting rise to positions of command and gradually they become a juggernaut.
With the Cardassians being relatively resource poor compared to the other big powers it would make sense that they really important systems would be carefully protected with fixed position weapons and stations. We saw the allied fleets struggling with a Cardassian defence grid during the Dominion War. This would explain how they were able to fight the Federation to a standstill during the pre DS9 era during the border skirmishes. Starfleet probably could have punched a whole through those fixed defense's but they would have to pull their top of the line units together to do so and there was not the political appetite to do that. So while the Cardassians could not hope to beat the Federation defeating the Cardassians property would have required more resources than the Federation were prepared to commit in a conflict that while important to the border colonies was hardly life or death for the Federation as a whole.
The Klingons were poster children for stagnation. Its insane how 90% of their fleet are century old models. And even the Vorcha is a product of technology exchange with the Federation. Also, I think I may add that the Klingon Invasion was the best thing for Cardassia. Like any long serving authoritarian government, the Central Command grew old and complacent. I feel like the modernization program that started as a result of the Federation War and the emergence of the Dominion only really got kicked into high gear when the Dutapa Council took full power and fresh faces came to the front. Cardassian designs were actually very good. We have seen bits and pieces of what they are capable of even before the Dominion War. Systems like the ATR-4107 was very advanced even if they could not build many of them. With the Dutapa Council embracing new ideas and impetus to new weapons the Cardassian fleet would be continually improving while the Klingons have been more or less stagnant for decades.
Detapa*
Yeah that does raise questions of supply. Cam the klingons get essential replacement parts for their vorcha if some are federation components
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Probably not. Their supply situation is probably abysmal. They don't value scientists, economists, doctors, etc. It takes a very devoted and concerted effort to make supply and logistics work. The US military does a great job but it requires five support soldiers for every line soldier. Every stage of replenishment is planned to the most minute detail. Every cubic centimeter of transport space is planned and accounted for in American replenishment pushes. It was the bane of my existence in Iraq. In contrast, the Russians do not prioritize support, don't plan for it, and their transportation of replenishment is haphazard at best. And we can see the consequences. Cannot see the Klingons being any different. On the other hand, the Cardassians are obsessive about detail.
29:22 Considering the Klingons are to some degree feudal, i think that they might be indirectly in play through Levies. So the KDF goes to war and tells the houses "We want every fifth Bird of Prey and every thrid Vor'Cha you have and their crews (who will be assigned to different ships and to some degrees mixed, as to prevent one house fleet from coordinating an attack on another) and if you have trained and maintained them well and disciplined your crews well enough to not fight against the other houses while serving with us, you will even get them back when the war is over."
So the KDF's Core is probably protecting the chancellor and Quonos etc, while the shuffled House Levies are the backbone of the actual Strike Force.
The KDF then goes ahead and makes it clear that whoever turns against a member of another house while serving with this fleet brings great dishonor on their house, as they are essentially a traitor - attacking a fellow Klingon in the face of a common enemy.
The KDF also makes it clear that losses will be replenished from the reserves of whatever house provided the lost ships/soldiers, so that the KDF actually gets the good troops that have a better chance of surviving the war, because keeping the KDF losses to a minimum means keeping house losses to a minimum.
I remember seeing that IRL Vor'ca model plans were used to make the original AGT Klingon ships that become the Nag"var in DS9 makes you wonder how long it was in development for and if the Nag'var was a compromise design considering all the new designs coming out of the Federation in the 2360s and 70s
Great video chaps, keep up the good work VGM!
Love how you're taking your channel to the next level. It's cool to see you actually in real life talking about Trek in person. It's really cool. Kudos to you and to your people your crew. Thank you for doing what you do and here in the states. I'm in the state of Michigan and we love your work. Keep it up!
The klingon invasion fleet is definitely a mixed force. ( defence forces and house fleets) in ( looking for permanent in all the wrong places) grilka says to quark her house has lost a lot of warships and freighters in the war . Also, in the way of the warrior part two. Dax says in the briefing. Gowron had committed a third of his forces. The imperial defence forces a quarter of the total. Fleet . A third is about 400 ships . The klingon fleet is said to be 6500 ships. ( with a significant number of them being military transport or fighters) and birds of prey . I'd argue it's a third of the idf and two-thirds made up of the great house fleets. They had almost a hundred or 80s ships st ds9 .plus the invasion forces. Two years later, after the dominion drove them out, they still had a couple of hundred ships ( in the expeditionary fleet), but then they eill have taken losses in the federation conflict. . Dialogue suggests the conflict lasted 3 mouths. The klingons invaded , and it took the bulk of starfleet to contain them . And it took some time for the federation fleet to respond. But the klingons will have hone into war time production from the beginning of the war . It was protected to take about ten years to recover its fleet size and economic situation. They suffered massive losses. In a 4 years period. About 3 quarters of their fleet. . Their economy would be exhausted. But they will have gotten reparations in the treaty of bajor.
I listen to both of your channels, and to get to hear your collaborations is the best. Please keep doing these as listening to fans with historical knowledge is my bread and butter.
At the 19 minute mark but didn’t want to forget so apologies if it’s addressed later on, but wasn’t a big part of the Klingon slowdown because Sisko & Co were feeding the Cardassians intelligence so they could better respond to and overmatch individual Klingon incursions and prevent a steamrolling?
If I were going to get two TH-camrs together before the end of the world itself.... it’d be these two. Awesome Sauce on Awesomeness.
Beaches are where most amphibious invasions occur, so that could be how it relates.
Yeah, the Klingons in the 24th century were by shadow of themselves. The Cardassians were the only nearby nation that was strong enough that a war would be long and "honorable" (unlike the Talarians) but weak enough that victory was the most likely option as opposed to a bloody stalemate (against the Tholians) or a near-certain defeat (against the UFP or Romulans). Yet at the same time, inter-house factional rivalry, poor supply chains, the fact that Cardassian fleet's "turtling" doctrine/design for its coreworlds just so happened to adequately counter the Klingon fleet's "wolfpack" doctrine/design, the Klingons not wanting to anger the UFP too much, and Gowron's ego I agree would all contribute to slow downing the Klingon's ability to advance into Cardassian territory after the blitzing of the borders/frontiers.
A shame about the Camera batteries. I look forward to Part 2 when it releases.
Also, cool face reveal. I didn't know you wore glasses. Neat shirt as well.
Good video, the background noise was a legend
The joys of filming out in the wild.
Great conversation guys, I have long enjoyed both of your channels and love that you have been keeping up this collaborations..... cool that you got to hang out in person. Cheers from California!
Gowron's arrival with the negh'var was like he was expecting a kinda blitzkrieg against the cardassians and was gonna use it in a victory parade as a kinda "we didn't even use our best ship"
Always thought the Klingons fleet was a case of if it isn't broken don't fix it hence the 100yr + ship design just refit the tech every few years
So basically a T-14
@@MrGunlover12 yes something like that 👍
You know it does put that whole alternate universe war where the Klingons were beating the Federation into a whole new light though, does this DS9 campaign actually make that war now nonsense in terms of what happened?
@@RomanHistoryFan476AD Seems like it! The Federation would have had to really screw things up.
@@crownprincesebastianjohano7069 Maybe without a Borg wolf 319 battle happening due to the war, The Federation was not ready for a full on war. But yet again that does not hold water either due to the fact the Federation should have been easier to adapt to Klingons than fighting the borg was.
Klingons and Kzin are awfully similar. They often scream then leap, before they're ready.
What a wonderful surprise! Great way to start the new year!
Fantastic gentz! nice relaxed conversation on fleet doctrine. Do I see a lads of ships calendar in your future?
Commanders who hate each other can be a good thing. Pretty sure Monty and Patton hated one another yet their rivalry drove them to do great things together.
Try to outdo the other yeah. But they had two independent armies to lead. And a guy above them
My Hot Take, the Klingons were more of a threat when they were full of the Augment Klingons during the TOS era. The Augment Gene made them craftier & smarter.
It also could be that Gowrons stop his invasion is because he has a sudden hostile Federation now near his supple lines and plus losses the Klingons took trying storm DS9 was gave him pause not if the Cardassia had strong defense. Because from I remember from the that episode the Klingons once they blasted through the main Cardassia fleet they were able role up rest of the Cardassia territory.
The best the Cardassian put up was Dukat stealing a Bird of Prey and then pretty much going rogue to fight them.
Remember also, Gowron was egged on by the changeling impersonating General Martok to invade Cardassia.
A good point is just how far Cardassian space is from the Klingon Empire? If there is significant time and distance just getting to border, and of course, penetrating deep into that rival empire, coordination is just that much more of an issue.
Just how powerful the potential force of the Klingon Empire is seems to be something of an unknown. The Federation would seem to have beaten them in practically every way in their long cold war; and the Praxis event leading to a long stagnation in military hardware. Most Next Gen shows support this, yet the alternative timeline of "Yesterday's Enterprise" shows a possible situation of the Klingon Empire on the likely successful campaign to defeat the Federation. While much might be said that at some pivotal moment, Starfleet 'Zigged when it should have Zagged', that the situation exists at all suggests that the Klingons retain considerable potentials. Likewise, "All Good Things" shows us a Klingon Empire victorious against the Romulans in a not so impossible future.
House forces should not be underestimated for how much they might add and detract from the central government forces; even if those houses might be a reason why there are so many B'rel and K'tinga classes still flying around?
I really would not underestimate the klingon fleet of the cold war. They knew their logistics
Just in time for Alliance the klingon campaign.
I'd always figured the D-7s we see in DS9 and beyond are new builds. Not ships that had been continuously refurbed for the previous 100 something years. And as new builds, they're up to modern standards. Kinda like an F-15EX looks like an F-15A but in reality is nothing like that 50yr old variant.
I wonder if the Klingons did built at least a few in number B-10 Battleships, could those be very powerful monitors if they're given the K'Tinga Modernization?
Look great dude! Awesome video aswell!
Tiger tanks would've changed the course of the Klingon-Cardassian War. And, imagine if they'd had them in Jurassic Park? 😉
Oh my you guys are handsome
Neg'var was one off at first. Later models lacked the undernount siege guns. Klingons don't fix what works and is not broken; just refit as necessary. Advanced romulan ships could repell the Klingons. Cardassians were technology inferior. Supply line issues were a problem for the Klingons given the distance from their territory, and lack of federation support for the invasion, made it difficult. Also ended up pushed the cardassians to the dominion.
The difference between Cardassian and Klingon technology is not that pronounced. The issue for the Cardassians is that they couldn't mass produce their most advanced weapon designs to the point every ship was refitted with their better weapons. But the clearly had very powerful new weapons developed prior to the Dominon annexation because some of their ships were much more effective than others, they had already fielded the Dreadnaught Missile, and they were able to refit their fleet in the few months between annexation and the War starting. But, then again, the Klingons also couldn't field newer ships at the rate of the Feds or Romulans, if they could their fleet would be filled with newer ships instead of mostly old ones. Indeed, if it weren't for the Federation alliance technology exchange, I think the Klingons would probably be at the same tech level as the Cardassians: 30 years behind generally.
@@crownprincesebastianjohano7069 yeah quite possibly. Again poking holes I'm the yesterday's enterprise scenario
"Neg'var was one off at first. Later models lacked the undernount siege guns."
The ones in Endgame had those.
@@Hartzilla2007 yeah the Voodeigh
So that's where Drac went after he recorded that audible plug....
when was that?
@@venomgeekmedia9886 It was in the typhoon cobra video, released like 2 weeks ago, the audible ad has him walking out of his house and down the street wearing the same hoodie he's got on here.
I was more exited for the face reveal than the video! 😂 (great video though)
You flatter me sir.
the human disguise looks great almost couldnt tell you are a Romulan time traveling historian
Hopefully he's from the Romulan Republic. :)
I have a few comments first is I think Klingon ships are like some of the more modern military for us is a hull that can be upgraded easily over time. Second, I wonder if when the datapa council was being rescued that the klingons were boarding the ship. They do that all the time. No matter what you say, Cardassians should be better close combat fighters than most Federation. Third Cardassian ships are "newer," but I would argue the tech wasn't as good. The final comment is that to agree with the defenses, if we look at the last century, the klingons have not had to deal with large-scale fortifications. They have had Romulan raiders and then a civil war against Klingons. So, most of the experience is small-scale ship fighting. I mean, after way of the warrior it's mostly just bird of prey attacks we see. This is exactly the type and style of combat they have had for decades.
I think if we are talking about vorcha and kamarag and boreth they are definitely built with upgrades in mind like modern MBTs but the older ships are more like t54 or t62 a little harder to fully upgrade
Let's destroy this cardassian ship. Ooo Defiant!
I wonder, if a duell between a Miranda and a klingon Bird of Prey would differ in different ages, movie, lost, tng, ds9 era.
Hmm yeah. That would be an interesting development over time. Might have to cover that.
Gowron was right. The Alpha Quadrant would have been safer with the Klingon Empire in control of Cardassia.
Excellent post hoc reasoning ;)
The Cardassian War makes those alternate universes where the Klingons going to war with the Federatation and winning in the 24th Century look absolutely laughable.
Yeah it does don't it, Unless maybe in that universe because the war happened before Borg contact, the Federation never got that shock the borg give them that pushes them to arm up and build new warships dedicated to fighting Borgs.
The Feds would have had to have completely mucked it up. Like the Union in the US Civil War between 1861-1863, except they never snapped out of it.
@@RomanHistoryFan476AD Even before then it was clear that the Federation was the stronger of the two powers and that the Klingon Empire was more or less slowly becoming a vassal state to the Federation. All of this was happening before the Borg and Wolf 359 and it paralleled the relationship that the United States hat to Russia after the USSR fell.
@@robertbarrows6687 So what could have changed in that Alt timeline then? Did the Federation go overboard with the whole peaceful thing then. Where the Romulans supporting the Klingons but the episode forget that detail?
oh yeah. i've said it once i'll say it again. the klingons best chance was in the 23rd century.
SO THAT'S what you two look like.
Great video
Please Jim'll fix it for me to have one of these t shirts you are wearing.....you know how to reach me.
Weymoth also almost sounds like Weyoun.
I think we're guilty here of applying human concepts to the klingons. I think it's as simple as, Gauron is now high Chancellor. He is the strongest, his house is personal battleship is now therfore the best. So other houses imitate his battleship. Or maybe it's just a simple as he read tools everyone to have his battleship and he chooses who gets to have one..... 🤷
The cardassians will fight on the beachheads .
Bovingdon nice .
Not gonna lie, I Insta clicked.
Fuck Dream, this is the one I was waiting for 😂😂
I think I saw your video with lore reloaded but that was SO long ago lol, also *insert joke about looking like a default youtuber look here*
Is Lore reloaded still inserting too much modern day politics into his videos? I use to watch him but after a while his videos became just unbearable since he always had to put something in there about democrats or republicans and it ruined the Lore to me.
His own arrogance on some topics got eye rolling for me.
@@RomanHistoryFan476AD somewhat not as bad as nutrek but he’s ok overall
@@SuperGamefreak18 To one's own I guess. I just struggle to watch him because it got to preachy and the videos seemed to spend more time talking about our real world than the actual lore.
Calling Sisko a war criminal was the final line for me.
Which one is venomgeekmedia?
Oh Drach is pretty well known most of us know him. He is man on the left with the beard.
Thing is the Klingons got over 50 of their ships smoked down at DS9
50? Was it that many? Wasn't it mostly BOPs?
🖖😎👍
Re Klingons always looking for a fight to recapture the good old days, I think this directly lead to as you postulated the Klingon attack running out of steam. Every klingon wants to be the brave warrior winning glory for his house from the command chair of a bird of prey or battle cruiser, or leading his troops into the breach of an enemy's fortifications disruptor and funny shaped sharp object in hand, and these things while being good things win battles not wars. Logistics wins wars and no scion of a reputable house wants to be a logistician. The stores clerk, the supply ship captain, the munitions factory worker the convoy comadore wins no glory for self or house, and the weak, the dishonored, and failures who failed to have the decency to die honorably while failing are relegated to such posts setting up a situation where they lack the professional logistical support and fleet train required to fight a prolonged conflict. Combined with the general decline of the empire post Kirk ear you have what was a first tier superpower fading into near peer status trying to beat on a 2nd tier regional power and getting more of a fight than they expected, shades of teh russian federation in the current Ukraine war.
'Cept Russia is CRUSHING Ukraine right now...lol
@@dariusgreysun By what measure?
yeah when i come to covering the klingon fleet in TOS and TMP one of the things that became very clear was that they knew their logistics. logistics was their big failure in the 4 years war and they made sure to correct it. but with over 125 years since their last expeditionary campaign the klingons would eventually forget all those lessons
yeah i think he's living in a parallel reality
wow not what I thought they looked at all, I imagined much skinnier british guys
Pretty normal looking chap 😂
Kinda why I didn't make a big deal over it. Not that remarkable
I expected you to look more like a Romulan. 😜
I love the thought that Gowron actually looked for an acceptable target before he dove into war. And of course it's the Cardassians. They were designed to be the loser faction that fights with atrocity to keep up, so they're a full on Space Nazi hate sink.
Subject good. Beach bad.