Yep. When a large percentage of the matchups you face are Fox, characters with a bad matchup into Fox are basically not viable. And characters with a decent matchup into fox but a bad matchup against other characters are capable of making deep runs in tournaments. As long as Fox is by far the most popular character, the tier list is going to look an awful lot like Fox's matchup chart. (You could get some wild stuff with other character's matchup chart, on the other hand. The Marth matchup chart would look pretty wacky. Pikachu in S tier. Captain Falcon above Fox).
It's not very similar towards the bottom half. the top half is SIMILAR. but chars like gannon and pika are WAY low, and ICs/samus hella high (especially without the wobble)
@@bladedassain1 Eh? In the last official tier list (released March this year) ICs were 8th on the list, Pika, Samus, and Yoshi were 9th to 11s. In this version, ICs are 8th, Pika, Samus, and Yoshi are 9th-11th. Admittedly, different order (the official list has Samus below Yoshi and Pikachu) but M2K was arguing in this video for Samus to be below those two, so.... In the top 14 characters or so, the only difference where there wasn't someone arguing for the character to be in exactly the same spot as the last released tier list is that on this list Puff is below Shiek and Falco. (Which...honestly puff has been below Shiek and Falco in older tier lists, just not in the 2021 list). The first real eyebrow raising deviation is Roy moving up 7 spots to 14th (normally 21st). And sure, Gannon sliding down 3 spots to 17th (below Roy, DK, and Mario). And then a bunch of other characters moved around below that. But most people don't remember the bottom half of the tier list anyway (a lot of pros don't even have an opinion on low tiers cause they don't play the characters and see them so rarely) so what immediately jumps out is that the top 13 characters are in basically the same order.
@@KaitlynBurnellMath ICs are too high on the current tier list because voting was for wobbling legal even though wobbling was (and still is) widely banned at time of voting.
this video is awesome, want to toss something out as a yoshi main tho: the DJ fair from top platform that you (and everyone who ever talks about yoshi's place on any tier list) is an option that amsa himself has said is terrible and should be used as a RARE (like, once a game, ala falcon side b) mixup, if at all. wavelanding off the top platform and fastfalling thru the side plat with an upair already threatens an area of the stage that you argued yoshi cannot reach. it would hit you drilling in place. but you are right that the DJ fair that you see a lot of scrub yoshi's do is absolute garbage lol. also DJ armor aerial can beat drill with good spacing, amsa does it all the time, i don't understand why top players still think that parry and armor lose to the same things
Yeah, as another Yoshi main, it's hilarious how many people think they know the Yoshi matchup when there are so few that actually play the character well. Yoshi is weird as hell, and has some terrible qualities, but the weird jank he has is super powerful when used properly, and super punishable when used incorrectly. It's hard to tell the difference between the two when there are only like two high level Yoshis.
Yoshi is a character that has seemingly so much potential yet not a lot of representation. It's basically only amsa, nez, and one other yoshi I can't remember off the top of my head.
the disagreements were like stressful and chill at the same time somehow. funnily enough M2k's talking points were basically verbatim in his tier list video (wouldn't be surprised if it had like a 90% match in phrases tbh) so you could see where he was going with everything.
“So I give reasons for back air edge guarding, cape edge guarding, crouch cancel down smash being good and up tilt fair being good, and he says my moms cape goes lower and HE got ME?” “Yeah” Literally the soyjack chad meme lmao
game and watch should be moved up a tier. people say he's just a gimmick but he genuinely has a nasty punish game, he can avoid lasers with crouch and he's better at edge guarding than many characters above him. game and watch has some stuff for real
Not having a techroll or shield really hurt him. His recovery is half decent though, you can mix up sweet spot and lagless landing with a quick fast fall or double jump.
28:00 yoooo flash isaac music? So happy to hear it, that soundtrack is so dope. Great vid, you 3 are so entertaining together Also I wish more people knew about zelda's upthrow chaingrab and her conversions from up throw/strong dash attack to lightning kick, theyre not super reliable tools but the potential they possess is worth a lot more than nothing
At 21:27 is M2K just talking about asdi down to replace hitstun with the (usually) four frames of empty land lag or is there a third technique I'm unaware of?
Love when people say that Melee is well-balanced/has good character variety when a single character invalidates over half the cast, and that's not even considering characters that he simply has an advantage over
Most games end up only having one viable strategy for reaching the top. Even though melee is flawed for only having a small amount of the total cast viable, but there are still many options that can be chosen in order to win
I can see that you don't even play unranked, you don't automatically win all the match ups just because you use fox, you have to be very VERY skillfull to shut all the characters listed, any other fox can probably lose to a good kirby lel
Everyone all of a sudden forgetting how great of a character samus is. Funny how this happens in melee. Falcon was apparently not viable when I got into the game and now he is easily one of the best. Someone will push samus again. She is too creative of a character to not be great
I think Luigi does a whole lot better than people think. Then again I'm biased as a Luigi main, but the stocks of thousands of foxes lie behind me lol.
@@jondoe2772 I'll do you better. The loser has to write an incredibly cringey essay on the ssbm subreddit. Winner picks the topic. I've got slippi and I'm in N/A. I'm game lol.
Drill, up air, up smash... fox is very well equiped against yoshi, and is one of is worst matchup. So not sure about that. Pikachu can deal fairly well in the matchup
What gw has a chaingrab on spacies though, I get he has a bad shield but he does have a good dtilt and grab Edit the point being that dk had a chaingrab but gw does too, not saying its winning for sure :)
Ness isnt even that bad of a character and neither is Game n Watch. I think Game n Watch is super underrated as a character no one realizes just how broken his attacks are. They all hit pretty hard and his move set is sick asf it's just no one has really abused game n watches good moves or punish game yet. Might have to show everyone what's up eventually 🤔🤔
@@toasterofdeath9171 the shield surprisingly blocks more than what you'd think. But yeah the shield sucks. I'm not saying game n watch is better than fox but he isnt as low as people think just bcuz his shield isn't that good. Marths shield isnt even that good
I get that M2K has a "legacy" with melee, but he hasn't seriously competed in like 4 years. His opinion of the game feels unwarranted and like an attempt to stay relevant. He should pick the game back up and then state his opinion, it would feel more warranted then.
Lol he was literally ranked 10th in the world at the end of 2019 he has been inactive but this isn't like Ken or somebody way removed from the game who doesn't have a good understanding of the current meta
Awful opinion. I get the sentiment but M2K is very knowledgeable and he does keep up with Melee, he still gives out advice to top players as well AFAIK.
@@evanshanley8110 I mean sure. Doesn't really prove your point. I believe Swedish Delight beat Armada one time, too. And Silent Spectre. Armada is still far better. Cody now VS Hbox at his best? You sound crazy
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 84 วันนี้!! คู่เอก "ก้องศึก vs เมืองไทย"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3kuzsAIDf1c/mqdefault.jpg)
IM NOT
ok bro chill
bruh do you even play the game anymore
@@Afflictamine Respect the King
@@Afflictamine respect your elders
Fox-Fox is 40-40 is my favorite IBDW quote of all time
Other 20 is SDs
we havent unlocked the 10
I love that M2king joined the chat just to call Cody's opinions on MU's dumb haha
I like how close this ended up being to the actual tier list lol
Yep. When a large percentage of the matchups you face are Fox, characters with a bad matchup into Fox are basically not viable. And characters with a decent matchup into fox but a bad matchup against other characters are capable of making deep runs in tournaments.
As long as Fox is by far the most popular character, the tier list is going to look an awful lot like Fox's matchup chart.
(You could get some wild stuff with other character's matchup chart, on the other hand. The Marth matchup chart would look pretty wacky. Pikachu in S tier. Captain Falcon above Fox).
Since Kaitlyn said what basically I was going to say, let me just TL;DR her thing: The Apex Competitor shapes the environment.
It's not very similar towards the bottom half. the top half is SIMILAR. but chars like gannon and pika are WAY low, and ICs/samus hella high (especially without the wobble)
@@bladedassain1 Eh? In the last official tier list (released March this year) ICs were 8th on the list, Pika, Samus, and Yoshi were 9th to 11s. In this version, ICs are 8th, Pika, Samus, and Yoshi are 9th-11th. Admittedly, different order (the official list has Samus below Yoshi and Pikachu) but M2K was arguing in this video for Samus to be below those two, so....
In the top 14 characters or so, the only difference where there wasn't someone arguing for the character to be in exactly the same spot as the last released tier list is that on this list Puff is below Shiek and Falco. (Which...honestly puff has been below Shiek and Falco in older tier lists, just not in the 2021 list).
The first real eyebrow raising deviation is Roy moving up 7 spots to 14th (normally 21st). And sure, Gannon sliding down 3 spots to 17th (below Roy, DK, and Mario). And then a bunch of other characters moved around below that.
But most people don't remember the bottom half of the tier list anyway (a lot of pros don't even have an opinion on low tiers cause they don't play the characters and see them so rarely) so what immediately jumps out is that the top 13 characters are in basically the same order.
@@KaitlynBurnellMath ICs are too high on the current tier list because voting was for wobbling legal even though wobbling was (and still is) widely banned at time of voting.
He tried to make a Fox MU Tier List but he just ended up making the Melee Tier List lmao
Always has been
m2k and mang0? this is gonna be good
Mew2King is, as always, a joy to listen to. :D
I actually really agree with how m2k on his opinion of Samus compared to pika and Yoshi
Just need a reality tv show with mango and m2k living together
thats just kenny vs spenny
this video is awesome, want to toss something out as a yoshi main tho: the DJ fair from top platform that you (and everyone who ever talks about yoshi's place on any tier list) is an option that amsa himself has said is terrible and should be used as a RARE (like, once a game, ala falcon side b) mixup, if at all.
wavelanding off the top platform and fastfalling thru the side plat with an upair already threatens an area of the stage that you argued yoshi cannot reach. it would hit you drilling in place. but you are right that the DJ fair that you see a lot of scrub yoshi's do is absolute garbage lol.
also DJ armor aerial can beat drill with good spacing, amsa does it all the time, i don't understand why top players still think that parry and armor lose to the same things
Yeah, as another Yoshi main, it's hilarious how many people think they know the Yoshi matchup when there are so few that actually play the character well.
Yoshi is weird as hell, and has some terrible qualities, but the weird jank he has is super powerful when used properly, and super punishable when used incorrectly. It's hard to tell the difference between the two when there are only like two high level Yoshis.
Yoshi is a character that has seemingly so much potential yet not a lot of representation. It's basically only amsa, nez, and one other yoshi I can't remember off the top of my head.
Mango single handedly killed the 6-4 marth/fox narrative lol
next time zain beats mang0's fox the internet will go back to saying it's marth-favored
Mang0 in the chat had me rolling. Full on instigation mode.
the disagreements were like stressful and chill at the same time somehow. funnily enough M2k's talking points were basically verbatim in his tier list video (wouldn't be surprised if it had like a 90% match in phrases tbh) so you could see where he was going with everything.
M2K showing how long he's been out of the game saying that Wizzy is the only player that can reaction tech-chase in 2021 lol
Fr, his opinions were legit annoying to see
Wizzy should play jazz fr
no one does it like wizzy still, in terms of actual reaction speed m2k is right.
Only player in top ten maybe?
Uh I mean what other players are there really? Spark and faceroll are basically retired right now
“So I give reasons for back air edge guarding, cape edge guarding, crouch cancel down smash being good and up tilt fair being good, and he says my moms cape goes lower and HE got ME?”
“Yeah”
Literally the soyjack chad meme lmao
According to leffen fox loses every match up.
Mango with a gold medal in instigating
You should do this for falco too, I want to hear your thoughts on Falco vs Floaties
Does he play Falco enough to give an opinion?
10:35 "Fox / Fox is 40-40" funniest shit
game and watch should be moved up a tier. people say he's just a gimmick but he genuinely has a nasty punish game, he can avoid lasers with crouch and he's better at edge guarding than many characters above him. game and watch has some stuff for real
Fair, downtilt, nair and downair are all pretty amazing in their own ways against most characters above and below him. I agree with this
Qerb is so good like he almost beat fiction
Game and watch is top tier when he doesn't get hit
Not having a techroll or shield really hurt him. His recovery is half decent though, you can mix up sweet spot and lagless landing with a quick fast fall or double jump.
fox match up chart = basically melee tier list
I fuckin love how nerdy this shit is lmao
12:05 this part was so funny
"that has nothing to do with the points i gave"
Of course cody made a special tier for DK ;-)
And Roy lol
Did he... did he just call Luigi a low tier?
I think he meant relative to vs fox
“Sorry I wasn’t listening to you ramble about fake tech chasing” lmao Jason
28:00 yoooo flash isaac music? So happy to hear it, that soundtrack is so dope. Great vid, you 3 are so entertaining together
Also I wish more people knew about zelda's upthrow chaingrab and her conversions from up throw/strong dash attack to lightning kick, theyre not super reliable tools but the potential they possess is worth a lot more than nothing
“Which ones blue” hahahahaha
idk if its from the straem but chill on the music please
most of the top players have incorporated tech chasing as core parts of their gameplans….
Ganon can’t do anything against Fox. Bizzaro Flame enters the chat, forcing GOD ARMADA to switch off fox
At 21:27 is M2K just talking about asdi down to replace hitstun with the (usually) four frames of empty land lag or is there a third technique I'm unaware of?
watching this in 2024 and seeing dk so low is funny
1:35 that aged well
I sorted by newest cuz i knew this comment was coming
fox is the best counterpick for fox, find me a single set where fox doesnt win.
song at 14:12?? pls i can tell what it is but i can’t remember the name
Love when people say that Melee is well-balanced/has good character variety when a single character invalidates over half the cast, and that's not even considering characters that he simply has an advantage over
Thing is this only holds true when the fox knows the MU (which most dont). Also fox has 5o be so much better mechanically that it's insane.
Most games end up only having one viable strategy for reaching the top. Even though melee is flawed for only having a small amount of the total cast viable, but there are still many options that can be chosen in order to win
I can see that you don't even play unranked, you don't automatically win all the match ups just because you use fox, you have to be very VERY skillfull to shut all the characters listed, any other fox can probably lose to a good kirby lel
@@RIADAPLE Show me the last Kirby to make top 8 in a major
@@verbatim7508 what does that have to do with the majority of players
yoshi's punish game is so much stronger than samus. punish game alone puts him a tier above
yoshi in smash 4 IS OP AF i main him SO HARD BRO
im 10 mins and dying, this is actually so fucking funny
if Fox wins very hard against peach, how much better was Armada than mang0?
Armada's Fox has lost to Mang0's many times.
@@latheredtrillionaire5701 but armada has a winning record against mang0 with peach. And this tier list says fox has an easy time with peach
They said if fox camped vs peach. M2k said if the fox played like leffen vs peach. I think they are implying leffen camped vs peach and mango ran in
Everyone all of a sudden forgetting how great of a character samus is. Funny how this happens in melee. Falcon was apparently not viable when I got into the game and now he is easily one of the best. Someone will push samus again. She is too creative of a character to not be great
“Wait single icees better than ness”
🤣🤣🤣
"Fox Fox is 40/40" -IBDW
Wait mario chain grabs fox with up throws, then can chain grab with down throws and from there down throw into f smash
whats song in bbackground at 11:15
Where would Puff without rest be?
you need a top tier editor and to remake this video, condensed this could've been the most hilarious 10min vid! awesome content
I think Luigi does a whole lot better than people think. Then again I'm biased as a Luigi main, but the stocks of thousands of foxes lie behind me lol.
You can invalidate luigi by just fullhopping and playing like a weenie.
@@toasty5337 money match 10,000 dollars
@Valzac Entertainment wanna do netplay? I'm in the Midwest in North America.
@@jondoe2772 I'll do you better. The loser has to write an incredibly cringey essay on the ssbm subreddit. Winner picks the topic. I've got slippi and I'm in N/A. I'm game lol.
@@virn333 I'm not a redditor but this does intrigue me.
M2K was right about Yoshi compared to Samus.
How are M2Ks opinions always wrong
Mang0 with the 👀
Yoshi has a better mu against fox than pika, icies and definitely better than samus. 2 sets against amsa isn’t enough data tbh
That sounds plausible, but I'd think people will need more solid convincing.
Drill, up air, up smash... fox is very well equiped against yoshi, and is one of is worst matchup. So not sure about that. Pikachu can deal fairly well in the matchup
mario has good stuff on fox hes like samus
up b out of pressure and he has better movement than doc
I agree with mango
Unfrozen stadium is worse than fd for fox/spacies in my opinion for marth in my opinion
ness has some stuff against fox
wat about armada switching off fox to not loose to bizarroflame ganon
:mangoTYPERS:
Link is underrated. Sixx beat Ice once pretty sure and they're training partners.
I love Jason lmao
Mewtwo has punish
M2K has some of the worst opinions about melee for someone who was so good.
Is this a reload?
marth fox is pretty much 50-50, even on fd
yeah
What gw has a chaingrab on spacies though, I get he has a bad shield but he does have a good dtilt and grab
Edit the point being that dk had a chaingrab but gw does too, not saying its winning for sure :)
Ness isnt even that bad of a character and neither is Game n Watch. I think Game n Watch is super underrated as a character no one realizes just how broken his attacks are. They all hit pretty hard and his move set is sick asf it's just no one has really abused game n watches good moves or punish game yet. Might have to show everyone what's up eventually 🤔🤔
What happens when you have to shield though
@@toasterofdeath9171 the shield surprisingly blocks more than what you'd think. But yeah the shield sucks. I'm not saying game n watch is better than fox but he isnt as low as people think just bcuz his shield isn't that good. Marths shield isnt even that good
Repent of your sins and trust in Jesus you will be saved
samus is garbage. yoshi and pika are better tbh
Luigi smokes Fox
Maybe shitty unranked foxes
Luigi's only decent against fox if the fox player doesnt camp campy fox is dumb hard to play against
Losing Fox-Luigi is a choice
@@mia_2043 its kinda facts
soooooo is ibdw pretending he hasn’t played donttestme
M2K lmao.
I get that M2K has a "legacy" with melee, but he hasn't seriously competed in like 4 years. His opinion of the game feels unwarranted and like an attempt to stay relevant. He should pick the game back up and then state his opinion, it would feel more warranted then.
If he cant then we cant
Lol he was literally ranked 10th in the world at the end of 2019 he has been inactive but this isn't like Ken or somebody way removed from the game who doesn't have a good understanding of the current meta
Still probably the most knowledgeable about the game tho lol
Bad take lol
Awful opinion. I get the sentiment but M2K is very knowledgeable and he does keep up with Melee, he still gives out advice to top players as well AFAIK.
Cody saying he'd beat Hbox in his prime is nuts imo.
Watch smash summit 8 losers quarterfinals. Hbox vs Cody.
I def feel like that’s one of the more reasonable things said in this vid
@@evanshanley8110 once pre-COVID?
@@sareaper69 yeah…you said he couldn’t
@@evanshanley8110 I mean sure. Doesn't really prove your point. I believe Swedish Delight beat Armada one time, too. And Silent Spectre. Armada is still far better. Cody now VS Hbox at his best? You sound crazy