I met my wonderful student Mr. Trede during winter of 2011 high up here, and I personally gave him an A+ for his homework. We went over it together to see if there were any rooms for improvement.
That's marvelous! :D And, may I ask, oh great master: What did you tell him about the false relation in bar 367 (b in the soprano against a b flat in the bass)?
This is a very impressive completion, but for me the ultimate completion still belongs to Tudor Saveanu. I love the way Saveanu completes Fugue XIV by using a fourth subject which is identical to the opening subject of Fugue I - rather than by using the slightly more elaborate theme first seen in Fugues V - VII (as per this completion and most other completions I've heard). To go full circle in such a way as Saveanu does feels more Bachian to me than some of the other efforts I have heard.
To those who are commenting on the length of Trede's completion(s), let's keep in mind that of the 384 measures in the video above, 239 are by Bach, which means Trede added 145 measures, and in his second version, he added only 73 measures (shorter than Tovey's!) , for a total of 312.
Every time I hear this fugue (regardless of completions, although it's fun to hear those), I'm amazed at how a piece of music can be so full of crystalline beauty - how each note is in it's place and in no other. The instrumentation here shows that well.
I am sorry for my inadequate English. YES! Finally here you are again my dear completion written by Yngve Jan Trede. But first a tragic mistake: Soprano bar 367. It should be B natural, not B flat! Yngve Jan Trede is more creativ then me, and he did so much right! Unlike many others, he composed a really completion! In the triple fugue, all three themes switch places in every development, exactly what Bach did in his double fugue. Too many completers overlook that important detail. And he continue the same pattern during the quadruple fugue. Well done, and absolutely correct! Yngve Jan Trede also understood that the second part of the Bach-theme shall shall be removed in inversion, exactly what Bach did. Unlike some/many others, Yngve Jan Trede studying the score very closely. This extencive completion deserves real instruments!
Trede acknowledges the odd cross-relation between the soprano and bass in his score and points to bars 9-10, 21-22 and 31-32 in the Adagio of the Brandenburg Concerto No. 1 as precedent for it.
Thanks Hollow, for re-uploading this newer 'performance of Yngwe Jan Trede's classic completion of Bach''s ContraP XIV from Art of Fugue. I kinda liked the mellowish organ voicing You had chosen the last time, as it was a little more organic/natural sounding , although this choice of a combination of metallic harpsichord/ organ/ synth, is harmonically clear, and fulfills the possibility that Bach may have intended that it be performed primarily on Harpsic, or organ,.. . but I think it is universal enough to work very well either way. It is always surprising to me that every good completion although using material from Bach in various 'combinations" or permutations come out quite differently!
The moment starting at 9:28 where S2 and S1 combine with the inverted BACH motif to form a Neapolitan sixth is breathtaking. I have no doubt that Bach would have done the same had he completed this piece. Same with the moment at 11:35 where S4 and S2 in perfect stretto produce a single-note line between them.
Beautiful! A special thank you for the analysis! It makes it much easier to understand what's going on in this work. What I didn't enjoy was the timbre used in this video. I believe a pianoforte or a soft string timbre would be more appropriate, especially for the high notes.
Wow. One of the first, really convincing endings I have heard. Almost no point I felt that it was non-Bachian. 12:40 The Soprano seemed a bit too high - unbalanced - but this might just be the instrument. Other than that, this sounds - well, convincing!
A MOST remarkable completion. Bravo. There is never a point at which your continuation loses any sense of Bach's style. How long did it take you to compose it? Has there been any attempt to arrange your composition for a baroque or chamber orchestra or any other instrumentation? The only other long completion which I have found to be satisfying is that by Rudolph Barshai, performed by the Barshai Chamber Orchestra under his baton. I have a recording of it, but it was his live performance of the entire Art of Fugue at the Sydney Opera House in October 1973, including the incomplete Contrapunctus XIV, followed by his completion, which first opened my ears to this astonishing work.
I'm not certain how long it took Trede to complete the fugue -- a year or two possibly? The score is copyrighted 1994, but the autograph at the end says 1995. Unfortunately, Trede only published it in an academic journal along with his defense and never offered it to any music publishing houses like Zoltan Goncz did with his, hence Trede's completion is far less known and has never been arranged for other forces by anyone.
@@hollowchatter7429 I had not realised that Mr Van Trede had passed away. His score is available for download and I shall work on a piano version which may allow for some additional clarity in the audio of the parts, especially when all four subjects or their inverses are set against each other.
@@hollowchatter7429 As Tredes last student at the Royal Danish Academy of Music, I know, that he was working with this over 9 years. The first major work was the analysis of the detailed and overall structure of what Bach already wrote in order to finish the work in the same spirit. I might try to find more of his left study material and sketches in order to learn from his studies.
@@TS-rr8qphave you seen Mr. Saveanu's attempt at a Contrapunctus XIV completion? It seems to borrow a lot from Mr. Trede's but attempting to make it so the fourth subject is identical to the original subject introduced in Contrapunctus I, and I would like to hear your thoughts on it.
@hollowchatter: Thomas Daniel limits later in the above cited section of his book the meanings of "the most successful of all hitherto published, especially in stylistic terms" a few lines later only. The full "critic" of Trede's completion isn't that a glorification, but points out the shortcomings ("...lack of diversity in the thematic sections...the inversion of all 4 themes compositorical goes astray...no hint whatsoever for a free "accompaniment" of the first soprano entry by the bass... a.s.o").
Previously in this piece, Bach would cadence after all fuge subjects concluded before introducing the next fuge subject. Do you have a cadence similar to the previous ones after bar 239?
@@hollowchatter7429 The Dissertation by Indra Nicholas Martindale Hughes. Bach left a coded indication at the end of the mss. I play the completion by Dr. Kevin Korzin which is around that length.
@Dr. Gregory Hamilton It's an interesting and immersive piece of scholarship, but a few of the arguments are shaky and required a bit too much suspension of disbelief. It's far from definitive and some articles have been written since that make convincing alternative arguments about the piece without taking into account Hughes's perspective (i.e. Thomas Daniel's 2010 book on Contrapunctus XIV and Glen Wilson's 2014 article in Early Music).
@@hollowchatter7429 Ok I will look at those! However, I think the code she found on the last page of the Mss is an incredible discovery. I really think that that is what she says. BTW Dr. Kevin Korzin who wrote a fine completion is writing a book of Die Kunst for Oxford.
![[#2024MAMA] ROSÉ (로제), Bruno Mars - APT. | Mnet 241122 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgGqD28J6aQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I met my wonderful student Mr. Trede during winter of 2011 high up here, and I personally gave him an A+ for his homework. We went over it together to see if there were any rooms for improvement.
That's marvelous! :D And, may I ask, oh great master: What did you tell him about the false relation in bar 367 (b in the soprano against a b flat in the bass)?
@@gradpigodemosviedaff Well I mean they met and went over it AFTER Yngve died, so I guess, we just need to wait until we die to find out?
@@gradpigodemosviedaff It poses an interesting issue. The soprano can be altered to b flat, but the subject will lose its chromatic guise.
@@gradpigodemosviedaff I mentionet it too...some colission
The fourth note of the reintroduced first voice in bar 344 is dissonant. Not a Bach move. [ 12:39 ]
I am sure Bach would be really proud of this
One of the better conjectural conclusions. My favorite remains that of Lionel Rogg, but Trede's feels quite consistent with the style of Bach.
This is a very impressive completion, but for me the ultimate completion still belongs to Tudor Saveanu. I love the way Saveanu completes Fugue XIV by using a fourth subject which is identical to the opening subject of Fugue I - rather than by using the slightly more elaborate theme first seen in Fugues V - VII (as per this completion and most other completions I've heard).
To go full circle in such a way as Saveanu does feels more Bachian to me than some of the other efforts I have heard.
To those who are commenting on the length of Trede's completion(s), let's keep in mind that of the 384 measures in the video above, 239 are by Bach, which means Trede added 145 measures, and in his second version, he added only 73 measures (shorter than Tovey's!) , for a total of 312.
Every time I hear this fugue (regardless of completions, although it's fun to hear those), I'm amazed at how a piece of music can be so full of crystalline beauty - how each note is in it's place and in no other. The instrumentation here shows that well.
This is the greatest work inside the greatest work ever written, so what to expect there but beauty distilled at atomic levels of purity
Really ? The fourth note of the reintroduced first voice is dissonant. Not a Bach move. [ 12:39 ]
7:13 B A C H
I am sorry for my inadequate English. YES! Finally here you are again my dear completion written by Yngve Jan Trede. But first a tragic mistake: Soprano bar 367. It should be B natural, not B flat! Yngve Jan Trede is more creativ then me, and he did so much right! Unlike many others, he composed a really completion! In the triple fugue, all three themes switch places in every development, exactly what Bach did in his double fugue. Too many completers overlook that important detail. And he continue the same pattern during the quadruple fugue. Well done, and absolutely correct! Yngve Jan Trede also understood that the second part of the Bach-theme shall shall be removed in inversion, exactly what Bach did. Unlike some/many others, Yngve Jan Trede studying the score very closely. This extencive completion deserves real instruments!
Trede acknowledges the odd cross-relation between the soprano and bass in his score and points to bars 9-10, 21-22 and 31-32 in the Adagio of the Brandenburg Concerto No. 1 as precedent for it.
Very impressive completion. I think Bach left this unfinished work as a kind of homework assignment for future composers.
That's a very clever way of looking at it. Who knows? If not, I think he'd still appreciate other composers picking up where he left off.
8:51 os when Yngve's completion begins
Thank you!!
Thanks Hollow, for re-uploading this newer 'performance of Yngwe Jan Trede's classic completion of Bach''s ContraP XIV from Art of Fugue. I kinda liked the mellowish organ voicing You had chosen the last time, as it was a little more organic/natural sounding , although this choice of a combination of metallic harpsichord/ organ/ synth, is harmonically clear, and fulfills the possibility that Bach may have intended that it be performed primarily on Harpsic, or organ,.. . but I think it is universal enough to work very well either way.
It is always surprising to me that every good completion although using material from Bach in various 'combinations" or permutations come out quite differently!
The moment starting at 9:28 where S2 and S1 combine with the inverted BACH motif to form a Neapolitan sixth is breathtaking. I have no doubt that Bach would have done the same had he completed this piece. Same with the moment at 11:35 where S4 and S2 in perfect stretto produce a single-note line between them.
Can you explain why the fourth note of the reintroduced first voice is dissonant? Not a Bach move. [ 12:39 ]
@@psijicassassin7166 Maybe that's why he never finished it :)
Beautiful! A special thank you for the analysis! It makes it much easier to understand what's going on in this work. What I didn't enjoy was the timbre used in this video. I believe a pianoforte or a soft string timbre would be more appropriate, especially for the high notes.
Wow. One of the first, really convincing endings I have heard. Almost no point I felt that it was non-Bachian. 12:40 The Soprano seemed a bit too high - unbalanced - but this might just be the instrument. Other than that, this sounds - well, convincing!
I think it wouldn't have sounded off should it was played by strings.
Great work, bruh. I would have done totally different, but that's what's nice about being a composer, right?
“Great work, bruh.” Why is this so funny?? LOL
Outstanding! Thank you
very nice variant
I hope this appears in every Barenreiter Verlag edition of a piece of music someday
This is like integrating 10 times and more in integral calculus !
8:53
huge fan of yngwie malmsteen so i want to trust this yngwie did bach justice as well
By the way, Yngve Jan Trede's 13-page explanation is in English!
Is it? Where di you find it?
This completion sounds very convincing to me, I wonder what's its current copyright status, since it was never published outside of the DYM journal...
A MOST remarkable completion. Bravo. There is never a point at which your continuation loses any sense of Bach's style. How long did it take you to compose it? Has there been any attempt to arrange your composition for a baroque or chamber orchestra or any other instrumentation? The only other long completion which I have found to be satisfying is that by Rudolph Barshai, performed by the Barshai Chamber Orchestra under his baton. I have a recording of it, but it was his live performance of the entire Art of Fugue at the Sydney Opera House in October 1973, including the incomplete Contrapunctus XIV, followed by his completion, which first opened my ears to this astonishing work.
I'm not certain how long it took Trede to complete the fugue -- a year or two possibly? The score is copyrighted 1994, but the autograph at the end says 1995. Unfortunately, Trede only published it in an academic journal along with his defense and never offered it to any music publishing houses like Zoltan Goncz did with his, hence Trede's completion is far less known and has never been arranged for other forces by anyone.
@@hollowchatter7429 I had not realised that Mr Van Trede had passed away. His score is available for download and I shall work on a piano version which may allow for some additional clarity in the audio of the parts, especially when all four subjects or their inverses are set against each other.
@@hollowchatter7429 As Tredes last student at the Royal Danish Academy of Music, I know, that he was working with this over 9 years. The first major work was the analysis of the detailed and overall structure of what Bach already wrote in order to finish the work in the same spirit. I might try to find more of his left study material and sketches in order to learn from his studies.
@@TS-rr8qphave you seen Mr. Saveanu's attempt at a Contrapunctus XIV completion? It seems to borrow a lot from Mr. Trede's but attempting to make it so the fourth subject is identical to the original subject introduced in Contrapunctus I, and I would like to hear your thoughts on it.
@hollowchatter: Thomas Daniel limits later in the above cited section of his book the meanings of "the most successful of all hitherto published, especially in stylistic terms" a few lines later only. The full "critic" of Trede's completion isn't that a glorification, but points out the shortcomings ("...lack of diversity in the thematic sections...the inversion of all 4 themes compositorical goes astray...no hint whatsoever for a free "accompaniment" of the first soprano entry by the bass... a.s.o").
Previously in this piece, Bach would cadence after all fuge subjects concluded before introducing the next fuge subject. Do you have a cadence similar to the previous ones after bar 239?
In my opinion it visits a few too distant keys for it to be Bach, but it sounds amazing nonetheless!
The fourth note of the reintroduced first voice is dissonant. Not a Bach move. [ 12:39 ]
This could be a Runescape track
A long one, for sure! XD
@@zionfortuna Runescapers generally have it!
Is there an English translation of the German anywhere? pdf. is such a sucky format. It is so often not usefuls at all.
Much respect is due, but your bar 367 is a step too far for me!
It's very well done, but just way way too long. it has been shown pretty conclusively that Bach intended 47 more measures, not 384.
According to whom and on what basis?
@@hollowchatter7429 The Dissertation by Indra Nicholas Martindale Hughes. Bach left a coded indication at the end of the mss. I play the completion by Dr. Kevin Korzin which is around that length.
@Dr. Gregory Hamilton It's an interesting and immersive piece of scholarship, but a few of the arguments are shaky and required a bit too much suspension of disbelief. It's far from definitive and some articles have been written since that make convincing alternative arguments about the piece without taking into account Hughes's perspective (i.e. Thomas Daniel's 2010 book on Contrapunctus XIV and Glen Wilson's 2014 article in Early Music).
@@hollowchatter7429 Ok I will look at those! However, I think the code she found on the last page of the Mss is an incredible discovery. I really think that that is what she says. BTW Dr. Kevin Korzin who wrote a fine completion is writing a book of Die Kunst for Oxford.
@@hollowchatter7429 Hi do you happen to have the title for the Daniel Book? Thanks.
Postgraduate music analysis.