Is ERG MODE HARDER? Why ERG Mode Might Feel Harder with a Smart Bike Trainer
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.พ. 2019
- A detailed look at ERG mode and why it might feel harder to do a workout in ERG mode when indoor cycling than slope or resistance mode or ride outside.
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Do you prefer to use ERG mode in the small or big ring? Or not use it at all?
SMART Bike Trainers I always use ERG mode in the small chainring. Is there really any difference between using the large CR or small CR on ERG Mode as you’ll be holding a steady RPM anyway? I prefer ERG mode to sim or slope as you can target different systems (neuromuscular or cardio) within the same workout by just varying cadence
Big ring always. My Vortex Smart has low inertia though so high flywheel speed doesn't affect ERG responsiveness much. For trainers with bigger physical flywheel using small ring is good idea when performing short intervals with big power changes (again better responsiveness when adjusting resistance therefore power precision). For longer steady state intervals I would always use big ring for more smooth and natural pedaling.
Yes there is. The last 15min interval was done in the small CR. That resulted in smoother line and stayed closer to target. But also the second trainer the difference between the small cr and big CR was minimal so all depends on flywheel size or type of flywheel and trainer.
If I'm doing a repeating set of intervals like you show, I will actually switch between large and small rings and lower/higher cadences for each interval. I found that, at least for me, it helps with fatigue, and helps me develop the ability to hold power levels over a wide variety of cadences/situations when outdoors.
hello what smart trainers did u use for this 2 test
The reason that the small ring is more consistent is because the flywheel is moving slower which is easier for the trainer to control. Because we're using ERG mode we're apt to leave the chain in a straight line for pedaling efficiency, instead of having the chain shifted lower or higher in the rear gears which would cause a small or large amount of cross chaining. So for instance when you shift up to the big ring, you're also shifting up one gear the in back to straighten out your chain. The problem with this is that the flywheel on the trainer is now rotating substantially faster than using the small chain ring. When the flywheel is moving that fast 1) it's harder for the trainer to overcome the variance in speed to keep an exact wattage, and 2) any variance in cadence creates a larger jump faster or slower on the flywheel speed which also exaggerates the issue in #1.
As much as I don't like using my small chain ring for workouts, because I use it a lot during my rides so I feel like the small chain ring is going to get worn out way quicker than my big ring, it's just the better way to use ERG mode.
very good explanation.
I tried erg mode today and it felt like I was peddling in mud.
Great explanation of this! Never fully understood it, and the analysis to back up the explanation. Great! Thanks. Keep up the vids!
Awesome testing! We will be discussing this in the TrainerRoad forum. Thanks for the work and results. :)
Awesome... looking forward to seeing the discussion there!
Could you let me know which episode?
@@kj929 not an episode, but here are some links to related discussion on the TR Forum:
www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/trainerroad-ramp-test-erg-mode-broken-video-included/17265/46?u=mcneese.chad
www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/big-vs-small-chainring-same-power-erg-mode-gearing/6119?u=mcneese.chad
I’ve always use TrainerRoad so erg mode is the default. I’ve always used the inner ring, as for me it felt very consistent and able to keep my Cadence at my normal rpm 90-95. Now thanks to your video I understand some of the reasons. Really interesting video and great work.
I use erg mode, and it makes sense that it's more consistent and difficult. I like it better. I always wondered why my indoor workouts seemed to be more painful that my outdoors.
Thank you
Brilliant stuff.. the second trainer is the Tacx Neo. I only do ERG mode in the small crank, it i s just easier to keep turning over the crank and keep a high cadence (95). Keep up the awesome work, I enjoy your content. Side note.. Zwift needs a feature like "no downhill'. Basically change downhill to 0 grade for smart trainers.
If you unplug your Tacx Neo and ride without external power, it won't coast downhill. It's the trainer that coasts, not Zwift. A "dumb" trainer doesn't coast past the natural inertia of the flywheel. You have to spin the pedal to keep going downhill.
Looks like i'm going to be using the small ring from now on. Interesting video.
Had no idea that in the small ring the accuracy is higher. Maybe I'll be switching to the small ring. I have to try it. I actually feel that erg mode is easier as I can just focus on pedaling. In fact, on a 5min vo2max effort my best is only using erg mode.
Thanks for this. I'm struggling a bit with ERG mode so looking for more information to help me conquer it.
Gen 1 CycleOps Hammer
I always use the the small ring in ERG mode with my Tacx neo because it is much more shooth and less noisy. And the neo is powerful enough to keep it at the watts you want
I tend to use small ring when simulating climbing, big ring for most everything else, same as I would on the road. Big ring definitely seems a little easier so might try using small ring more often.
Always in small ring when in ERG mode. Also tried big ring and almost feel the same. But yeah same with yours. I'm close in my target power when using small ring. I'm using kickr snap.
I love erg mode from the time efficiency and the set and forget aspect of it. Most of my riding is in erg mode, with most of my free rides being out on the open trails and roads. Using a Kickr 18 after just upgrading from a fluid trainer and the difference is night & day.... I use little ring upfront, keeping the chain through the drive train as straight as possible for a buttery smooth, silent ride... not sure which trainer you are using for the zwift capture, but the time it takes to hit target watts is crazy wild... the Kickr 18 snaps true within 3 seconds, so guessing it’s not a Kickr... although could be a Kickr for trainer 2. Cyclops H2 maybe? The suspense is killing me 😂🤫
I returned my smart trainer because I hated ERG mode. Went back to a fluid trainer with a power meter. I just couldn't get the resistance in ERG mode to feel consistent. Hated the feeling of oscillating resistance.
I did my first FTP test earlier this year on a dumb trainer, so no ERG mode. I just did one on my Wahoo Kickr Snap, with ERG mode on, all in the big ring, my pacing was completely off. Most of my riding is outside. ERG mode just felt so unnatural. Ill be trying again next week without ERG mode and will follow up to see if there is any notable difference
Just yesterday I did my first group workout on Zwift. I used erg mode and instantly found out, that using the small ring could lock in the needed wattage better than the big ring. So no science needed, just do workouts and you'll know what to do. :)
That's great. The small ring definitely works well.
So theoretically, after using ERG mode all winter training, I should be even faster out on the road or am I off target? I ask this because it seems my FTP is higher outside than indoors on the trainer.
I'm a youth so I only have a 16 tooth on the back but a 52 on the front, would it still be good to use the small chainring?
I go for the big ring, mainly to save material. Old bike with reszricted spare parts available.
My kickr core actually sits a 2-3watts under target on the small ring but on the big ring is normally + - 1watt
Rather interesting ... I have not started using erg mode yet. I saw one chap doing intervals on the climbs in zwift and he would do it at 30% trainer difficulty on the long climb ... his cadence would be up around 95rpm so I assume he would do it for the same reason you are saying.
Personally I love riding in the big chainring outdoors and would rather shift up to my 28 at the back ... is it because you prefer TT's?
Very insightful vid !
Hi there. First of all, many thanks for your videos, they are insightful ! So, I have a Wahoo Kickr and Garmin 935. I always record workouts on both in case of a fail. I use Rouvy, and all my workouts there are in ERG mode. So last week my computer restarted during the workout and I soldiered on on my Garmin, which meant gearing and peddling to hit the numbers. This was my first workout done without ERG mode, and I hit the numbers and it felt great ! ERG mode feels like it takes the math out that you would need on the road or in a race. I am working with a trainer who insists that I do my workouts in ERG mode. So the question I guess is, when I do all my workouts in ERG mode (zone2 recovery as well), does that not stop me from learning a certain skill set I would need when riding out doors ?
There are no evidence to support that you will lose certain skills if you do all your workouts in erg mode. I talked about this with cycling coach Heath Dotson in this video:
Talking ERG Mode: How Often Should You Use ERG Mode?
th-cam.com/video/ImCmZm-iNco/w-d-xo.html
I should try it in small ring .... i always use big ring for 200 watts and over usually, like that just makes sense. I have the wahoo snap , I gotta do a big ring and small ring compare. Thx I never thought about this till now.
Thanks for your Video. Maybe I should focus on the big chainring, Because small chainring I can't finish my workout.I feel someone is dragging my bike.I can't get my tempo from my leg.RPM low and low. very diffent my last trainer corno fluid.
I haven't got ERG mode on my trainer but isn't logical that if you are staying tighter with the desired target you are actually achieving a better training result than moving uo and down?
The small chainring slower rotation feels harder, and it’s a good way to train for a climb
It would of been good to include heart rate data. Then you can see if you where working harder or not, just saying.
Interesting test indeed ... I do like the big blade however I do like to MIX it up between big and small ... small for hills and Big for flat and rolling . I think one need to ride and train both and more so if one is a roadie and if your races would be so ...
I think mixing it up is a great idea to train you for the different scenarios.
Gen one kickr user here, I’m a fan of erg but admit to running in the big ring for the feel, though I assume the trainer would keep tighter control if I was running on the little ring. Re your video, I’m guessing trainer one was a kickr 18 and trainer two was a neo 2..? Question, can you actually feel a difference between big and little ring on a neo? I thought the inertia had been dailed back in erg to allow the neo to get to and hold the target wattage?
I found the NEO1 and 2 to be pretty good at holding your target in both big and small ring and that has to do with the fact that both don’t use a belt. This allows it to react to your cadence a lot faster and feel much smoother in erg mode.
I had 5*10 blocks of sweetspot yet the first block on erg was high RPE, I switched to non erg and managed remaining 4 fine with avg power higher than first. On tacx neo2t with power from quarq. Can I get data breakdown in a chart via training peaks like you did here with RubiTrack as I don't have a Mac.
Not in TrainingPeaks web version but you should able to in WKO5
I'll give you a little trick that worked for me It shows more at the beginning of the interval (lasts less time is in the watt objective)
If Your Computer is powerful enough you will not have problems The program process you are using for the intervals eg Maximum Trainer, zwift etc. from the task manager set in Real Time In Maximum Trainer the difference is seconds.
sorry my english very bad
Thank you! I do prefer the 3seconds smoothing over instant. It shouldn’t make a difference in completing the interval or like we say “burn matches” :)
Were you using erg mode with power meter controlling the trainer or just trainer by itself? Thanks for great video!!!
+Pawel Rutkowski No I wasn’t using power match. Power is from the trainer itself.
Perfect explanation. Which software did you use to analyse the data?
RubiTrack for Mac
I only have one chainring. What do I do?!
Big ring all the way...even with the volatility/variance. Small ring, lower inertia causes a slightly different muscle recruitment pattern (timing/firing). IOW, you have to be on top of the gear slightly sooner with the small ring (less inertia) than if you were on the big ring (higher inertia)...which is more akin to riding on the road, where there is even MORE inertia. Now if you favor climbing then maybe the small ring is what you want to work...but if you are a dedicated time trialist (like I am) or flat-lander...then the big ring makes far more sense, even with the higher variance.
The reason why I'm waiting on a Kickr Core to arrive is to get away from the Kurt Kinetic Road Machine. Nothing against the Kinetic, which is basically bomb-proof...but it's also VERY dumb, with no flexibility in regards to cadence, gearing and power. I simply can't match road gearing to it because of the resistance curve, which is immutable. I end up being forced to ride one cog lower and even then I struggle to stay under 135 bpm...which is LT1 for me under the Polarized training model. I'm basically being forced down to below 80 rpm to meet the target heart rate. Going smaller on the gearing just doesn't feel right in relation to what I feel with the bigger gears on the road. I've always thought that you need a certain level of resistance on a trainer in order to make progress on the road...otherwise you are either stagnating or going backwards.
I do look forward to testing ERG mode in a few days...once I receive the Core. It will be nice to be able to ride 54 x 15 on both the trainer and the road...with the same cadence and heart rate range.
The small ring while using my Vortex feels pretty bad and chuggy, I stick to the big ring mostly, it is louder but I have zero issues with matching the power in Trainerroad, and when I am between intervals I just switch gears to match the cadence for cool downs.
It could be that I don't have a training tire and it's not sticking enough to the flywheel, my regular tire is worn flat....
+Darin Steele I’m always in the big ring. It feels more natural and similar to my riding outdoor.
@@SmartBikeTrainers It feels very similar to outdoors even on my Vortex, glad I'm not the only one!
Kicker follows power perfect for me
The higher the wattage, the higher the chance I'll go for big ring. And yes, you will get better precision and a faster lock on the desired power in the small ring. But apart from the more natural feel, the big ring will help me stay out of the spiral of death.
I hated ERG mode on the big ring, I had a terrible time finding a good pace in ftp tests in Zwift. I thought it was just a waste of time, until I read that it works better with the small chainring. Not only it works better, but at the same power outputs, the trainer is mostly silent. Now I do almost all my indoor training with ERG mode on the small chainring
Hello Tariq. I really need your HELP! I am always on Big CR because of low inertia of my Tacx Flow. I don't feel much/any difference between ERG On or Off. BUT: I have another BIG real problem and I think it will be very interesting for you and others people to take this considerations. first, note I use my Assiomas'Duo fol all rides indoors (HT) / outdoors what means, I never look at the Tacx Flow power data! The problem is, the same power for HT is A LOT more difficult than outside! I always thought about the oxygen present in the room or others thinks like that. To be precise and give you real data : my FTP is around 230W (my weight is 59 kgs) but I can do 200W average during 4 hours w/o not a lot of difficulties OUTSIDE and with HR of +- 145 bpm average (it's low for me) (also note that my average cadence is always around 72 - higher feels bad for me).. But inside, for the same power during one hour, my HR will be around 160 bpm and I will feel a lot effort. I accepted that fact since I discovered with pedals dynamics that outside my peak power were *centered but with HT It turns about +22,5° anticlockwise (to the up)*! Then, we can say, inside with HT, my pedaling style is a lot different and I am pretty sure it's the reason It so difficult for me (because the muscles are not used he same way...) As results, I have two question : Did you notice that for you and what do you think about that ? Second: Is it about the low inertia of my Tacx Flow against reality and if tried a Neo or Kicker with higher inretia, do you think this problem will disappear ? Great thanks....
Hmm... hard to say what’s causing this but generally for me personally, My indoor power tend to translate well outdoor and vice versa. A lot of elements can cause the higher perceived efforts your experiencing. A good road feel can be one. If your Flow has a low inertia and you feel like you are pedaling in sand all the time, that can contribute to what you are feeling. Also, consider the environment and cooling in your room. Make sure you have a fan directed toward your body. The wind outside keeps your core cooler resulting in a much more comfortable ride.
To answer your question, a good trainer with a good road feel might make things much better for you but also make sure you have good cooling as well.
There is another video that could answer your question. It explains different leg muscles are working in case of high/low inertia - in your case outdoor vs indoor ride:
th-cam.com/video/uHUOhmG04M8/w-d-xo.html
what ap are you using to analyze your data?
That’s RubiTrack for Mac. But some of the graphic overlays you see in the video are done in post. So a combination of TrainingPeaks, RubiTrack and video editing.
Interesting video! Not having an ERG mode on my trainer though I’m a little confused - If you’re using ERG mode, and it automatically sets the resistance, then how does it make a difference which ring you’re in? Does it set the same resistance in the small ring but do so at a “lower gear” (higher cadence)? If not, then how can you “feel” any difference between small and big ring for same power output while in ERG mode?
A big gear will spin the flywheel at a much higher speed making it more difficult for trainers to make tiny adjustments to keep you at your target watts. Also, the faster the flywheel the more inertia you feel making it feel like riding flat roads at high speed.
@@SmartBikeTrainers So the speed of the flywheel is proportionate to the input pedal cadence only, rather than to the input force (torque x cadence)? And that is what makes the trainer “direct drive”? So in that case doing big power (say 400w) in big ring/high gear is going to feel nothing like a big gear effort outside on the flats but much more like a steep incline - I.e. there will be little or no inertia? I think I’m still confused since you seem to be saying the opposite - that the flywheel spins faster in a big gear at lower input cadence 😁
Oh no, I don’t think I said flywheel speed is proportionate to cadence only. Sorry if I miss spoke. I took cadence out of the equitation because I kept it the same. So assuming a 90rpm cadence, your flywheel speed at low gear is going to be much slower than 90rpm at big ring/high gear. If you capture your (flywheel speed) during an ERG workout and switch gear from small ring to big ring, you will notice your speed is much higher when going to the big ring doing the same exact watts and it will feel different. Give it a try :)
@@XX-is7ps Think about what happens when out on the road.......you can be in the small ring and pushing 200 watts, then move to the large ring and move faster for the same wattage. So no it's nothing to do with cadence. The flywheel is moving faster because the bike wheel is moving faster. More speed (on road and turbo trainer) = more inertia.
Any suggestions on software for PC similar to RubiTrack.
Take a look at SportTracks. They have a web based and a software that you can download for Windows.
Erg mode gives me more confidence
hello thank you for the comparison question which brand and model (smarttrainer) was used for the tests?
Kickr 2018 and Neo 2.
@@SmartBikeTrainers OK thanks for responding 👍
@@SmartBikeTrainers I know this is an old thread. I have the elite drivo 2 trainer. I have access to the PID loop files to control the erg mode. I modified the file to make the trainer behave the way I would like the trainer to react. Keep the watts without being too aggressive.
Always big ring and erg mode and the less variability and more time in your target more efficient will be the workout.
Agree.
Do you ever see erg mode not work on Zwift? Does trainer road have erg mode?
I haven’t had many issues with ERG mode not working in Zwift. TrainerRoad does offer ERG mode.
I had no idea that the small ring made for a smoother power output. That is something I will be experimenting with. I don’t use the small ring unless I’m climbing. But, I hate the over-under effect of the erg trainer. If I’m close to the limit I can really feel the surges. Thanks, I learned something.
I don't think that answers the question "I'd erg mode harder?" until you look at HR data and compare them between the 3 efforts. Then you could say which one is more difficult. Not being able to maintain a steady wattage isn't a good point of comparison to say if erg is harder or not. My 2 cents.
What software is that?
That’s RubiTrack for Mac. But some of the graphic overlays you see in the video are done in post. So a combination of TrainingPeaks, RubiTrack and video editing.
Good vidéo !
Your power meter it's the trainner our your own ?
Power was from the trainer itself. I did check against my powermeter. Similar results.
@@SmartBikeTrainers i found myself having a problem with the erg mode when i used my power meter, it feels less stable and my trainer (vortex) struggles to maintain the same power
Do you find it better holding erg mode when using the Vortex as your power source? I didn’t test a Vortex so I can’t comment on how well it works in erg mode but some trainers are better than others and react differently. Also with Powermatch, the app you use and trainer can also effect how your feel.
@@SmartBikeTrainers Vortex is excellent in ERG mode. I would pay attention to the gear selection though. It has pretty low wattage ceiling so bigger gear might be necessary for higher power levels. One also need to have in mind power floor, because it has some passive resistance too (so for very low power levels easy gear is required).
@@72starbuck It feels less stable or power numbers displayed are less stable? From my experience Vortex works flawlessly with external power meter and power match (in Zwift or Trainerroad).
Erg mode is great for getting the most life from you cassette, just use a different sprocket for each workout and the trainer does the resistance.
ERG definitely feels harder.
I like erg mode, until you get used to it it feels like a instrument of torture, because there just is no scope for slacking off.
your music is a bit loud