Smart Trainer Myths | ERG Mode Spiral Of Death
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 มิ.ย. 2021
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I really hope many of you have been in this place, you hop on your new smart trainer because your mates tell you this is the future ... next minute your pedalling at 20rpm and about to throw the thing through the window.
I am a self proclaimed smart trainer hubbard, so not only did I experience this but I wanted to make sure you guys are aware of ERG mode in all it's "glory".
We would love to hear your own feedback on ERG mode, how you use it and whether you think there is a benefit to training on it.
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Congrats on 20k
First
I only use erg mode. From experience and what i hear from others is that on the trainer you do 20 watts less then what you can do on the road. The problem that some people have is that you can never stop peddeling with it, no rest during the whole ride. Plus i also found for myself starting 3 seconds earlier for the intervals helps the machine to adapt towards the new power level easier.
I've been on TrainerRoad for over 6 months now and only ever use ERG mode. It ensures I'm always training in the right zone. One of the biggest challenges I've faced when riding outdoors is sticking to an 'easy day', as the Strava demons get to me. No such problem with indoors and ERG. Set yourself a Z2 workout and the trainer just takes care of the rest. I really wondered what the title of this video was about but I wouldn't call it a death spiral at all. If you can't maintain the cadence and fall behind then you've failed the interval, simple as that. For me, the trainer has developed my cycling significantly more than outdoor riding would have alone.
Congratulations on your 20k subscribers! Good to see you’re a newbie at something. I think that kind of thing is as good for your head as your body. Love the FulGaz videos. Even use their video content,which you can watch on the website without a subscription, with my dumb trainer and just roll through the hills of some really cool places.
Mega congratulations in the 20k subscribers and counting 👌
Erg mode for SE work only. Great for short sharp efforts at low cadence. Say 420W 30/30 12 reps 6 sets all at 50-60rpm.
The rest of the time in SIM mode to let grade, gears and cadence determine power. Some describe SIM mode as you ‘making’ the power whereas ERG mode is more like you are ‘holding’ power.
The spiral of death. It’s pretty simple physics. Power = force x revolutions. When the power is a constant value (erg mode) and you slow the revolutions, the force increases to keep the equation balanced.
Keep the channel rockin Chris! Congratulations on the 20K subs!
Yes Chris Nailed it mate. When I use erg I ride off my cadence rather them power, once you flip the switch and not worry about power output and keep the cadence right that is the best way. I usually drop my FTP 10%. I never use erg for sprint efforts and only for shorter efforts below 10min. Any longer efforts I'll look for a Zwift race and use that as I get better numbers and it is a constant effort anyway, usually races are 18-50 min long work well, I can keep at 90% FTP for the whole race where I struggle to get 3 by 12-15 min in erg. I find the 30sec on 30sec off intervals in erg are really good at building strength to attack or build speed on climbs if that is something you lack. It is definitely different then the norm but you can make it work for you, good to see you on the trainer I hope you see some gains.
As for the covid jab, 2nd vac it took me 3-4 days to get over it, once I was able to get back on the bike I seemed to feel allot better after that ride, seemed to clear the system out nicely.
As I don't have a power metre on my road bike , I do most of My medium length to short intervals on the smart trainer and always erg mode , I find ironically I ' spin ' more on the trainer than out doors otherwise I will get caught out in the spiral off death , and U did a really great impersonation Chris of what I looked like when the spiral happen s , had me in stitches , 👍👍👍💪👍👍
Only ever used a wahoo kickr but ERG is nothing like your explaining in my experience. Used swift and TR for numerous winters and never really suffered with the spiral of death unless at really high V02 max intervals and had nothing left in the legs. For tempo and sweet spot efforts I can knock it down a couple of gears and get out the saddle with a cadence of 70 ish then when I sit down knock it up a few gears and spin again at 90. And everything is spot on.
Thanks for this, I struggled with the death spiral - it basically ruined indoor training for me. Not alot of information out there about it,so again thanks
Been trying different things with my KickR Snap and extricated routes taped to my handlebars; adjusting resistance manually. Really Interesting how meticulous it can b and the metrics you can get with smart trainers. Far cry from my Kurt Kinetic dumb trainer which I used for years…Great comments and content here. Thanks all!
Riding erg is a bit of a learned skill. I use it for most sessions but efforts need to be greater than 1 minute otherwise the trainer doesn't have time to dial up or down the wattage and you end up bouncing all over the shot.
I find the best way to ride erg mode is let the power come to you and don't chase it. When your interval starts just focus on maintaining your cadence, you'll feel the resistance come in and if you keep it Smooth once the trainer has stabelised you'll be back into rhythm in about 4-5 seconds. Inverse the procedure when your efforts stopped keep the cadence stable, feel the resistance change and slowly ease off the power 😀
try using a smaller gear. Your trainer may be compensating for your inputs (torque) that are above the power of the interval (smashing the pedals). Therefore, the trainer drops resistance. Power then is too low, so it increases resistance. Thus producing a wavy power output. Smaller gears smooth out your inputs reducing the torque you put into the trainer.
Had my first AZ shot on thursday, felt fine no reaction at all. I walked the 6klm home after as well. I am 71. And recovering from a total right shoulder replacement. 8 weeks post Op now, and have been walking everyday to maintain some fitness. Will be September before allowed out on a bike. Shoulder has no strength. Just starting some gentle indoor sessions now. We will get there.
Love this video. All so true !!
HAHA! Thanks Michael
Erg mode driving me crazy too thought mine was broken.. I'm glad you're doing well, don't get more jabs it's not worth your health
I'm a month in with my new Wahoo turbo trainer running Zwift. First time I used it I was in ERG mode at hit the death spiral a few times & like you thought there must be something wrong with the trainer. I use ERG all the time in workouts now. It's great, it sets the Watts for each interval & you have to produce that power. Higher the cadence the less the apparent resistence. Just don't stop peddling & keep your eye on what's coming. It's great training.
Would never use it on a group ride, free ride or race though.
ERG mode every time for me from 20 or 30 sec efforts all the way up to 40min efforts and 2hr+ workouts. You can't beat it for training adaptation. You have to think of it like 'staying on top of the gear' outdoors. Understanding the science may help too. Remember that the power (watts) you are putting out is the combination of cadence (speed) and force (how hard you are pushing on the pedals). So if you slow your cadence, the watts ERG mode is holding you to is going to require you to push harder on the pedals. Slow your cadence too much and welcome to the death spiral! This is great for low cadence strength effort workouts though!
In my studio, as many people initially struggled with the opposite to the death spiral, especially during lower intensity intervals or recovery periods. In ERG mode if you are putting out more power than it is asking for, it backs off the resistance making it easier which makes it feel like you are pedalling down a hill in your easiest gear and peoples natural reaction is to spin faster or push harder to catch up but you have to do the opposite and back off the power to bring the resistance back.
Getting used to ramping up and down at the start and end of high intensity intervals can also be tricky but once you get used to it, makes the transitions much smoother.
Once you get used to ERG mode, I don't know why you would use anything else for training. The constant 'pressure on the pedals' and thus pressure/resistance on your muscles, nature of it makes the adaptations that much higher and more effective!
After 20K subs, apparently the number grows exponentially!
I love Erg mode because I don't pay attention all the time. I do use sim mode for sprint intervals, or short intervals like Ronnestad, Tabata's etc.
My tip for Erg mode. Put extra effort into the upstroke for a few seconds as a new interval starts if it's a drastic increase in power, like 5x5s. This helps the trainer apply a smoother power ramp. After a few seconds you can go back to your normal pedal stroke.
That’s an interesting tip for pedalling, I’ll try that one
Loves me some ERG suffering. I use it for all my indoor training, great for really nailing those numbers and zones. Really (in my head) gives me a sense of “scientific” gains. After a winter of indoors though being out on the rolling roads is a complete arse! Oh yeah, spiral of death is a thing, just crank up that cadence and let it all settle again. Low cadence high power efforts are not fun though.
HAHA!! You are a harder man then me, though I must admit I’m enjoying that challenge
Chris, I think the biggest determining factor for the use of Erg vs Sim modes is going to be your software of choice. I used to use Zwift for which Sim mode is the obvious choice - otherwise you are just totally disconnected from the immersive experience. These days I have switched to Sufferfest and being based on workouts rather than a simulated experience it really requires ERG mode, which I will agree took a little bit of getting used to. I also find that Erg mode in Zwift for example far more difficult to ride than Erg mode in Sufferfest. In Zwift I could never get the cadence and power targets to match.
excellent commentary, I'm finding the smart trainer (suito elite) works great for Z2 riding, beyond that the resistance becomes unnaturally too tough. I think its to do with the lack of 'mo' ... momentum, that you would normally pick up/incorporate as you spin along. Hence why in erg mode the resistance goes beyond what we're used to on the road as we'd normally be spinning with power and have the mo gains from that - so its a cyclic process, where erg mode lacks this mo aspect. consequently we are forced to do a counter intuitive method of peddling to compensate. Now watch a primarily zwift rider on the road, mashers vs seasoned roadie ... smooth spinners., reason being the mo that's incorporated into their pedaling technique. so question is what gains and/or harm to a seasoned cyclist can an indoor trainer do? Maybe not much as we're pretty adaptable, but maybe could be the case as years of perfecting the balance between power and effort can be undermined by this contraptions.
yep…same experience with the trainer. I only use erg mode for ramp tests and some
have ended in the spiral of death. If I do train, I use my Wahoo just like I do outside to keep track of intervals
It’s worth getting use to it mate, I have sessions sent to me with powerhouse which load up into zwift, I’m doing 10+ hrs a week all in erg mode When I go out on bike I just ride and get the feel/learn the road and gravel But due to all the erg/intervals just got a bit of go when I need it to use it haha It’s also way safer than taking on the p plate apprentice tradies on their phones in the traffic round Sydney/nthern beaches
10hr a week in Erg mode … you are a monster Mark! I hear what you are saying about getting sued to it, I am really enjoying the challenge of it
I use both the erg mode and normal (or gradient simulation) mode. Generally speaking in my opinion erg mode is quite ok for lower intensity efforts, say up to zone 2 or 3. Harder efforts are obviously more difficult and I often find myself grinding a low cadence even if not yet in the actual death spiral.
But yeah, both modes have their uses and good to have the options to choose from. Sometimes I even do so that I change modes within a session, for example first hour in erg mode and second in gradient mode.
Finally one amateur tip. It might help especially in longer intervals a bit in erg mode if you don't set the power to an exact fixed wattage. For example if you're doing a 20 min effort at 250 W, create the workout so that the power has a bit of variation, say every couple of minutes something between 235 and 265 W. As long as you're in the right ballpark or zone, the variation shouldn't ruin your workout.
In ERG mode the trainer is simply using a feedback loop* with rider RPM as the input to modulate resistance. ERG mode response to rider input is straight forward. The trainer forces the rider to produce the power demanded by the chosen training profile/program being used.
*Physics basis:
[Torque x RPM = Power]
Chosing ERG mode is requesting the trainer to demand a specific power output. Consider an interval that demands a constant power output P. If, during the interval, the rider reduces their RPM (cadence) the trainer will increase the resistance so that the rider must apply more Force to the pedal to hold this power output (i.e. to keep the pedals moving at all). This requires the rider to increase the "average" pedal force during each pedal stroke to increase the Torque (as Force x Lever = Torque). The death spiral is real but easily predictable and avoidable.
I only ever use erg mode 😅
The way you’re thinking about it Chris I agree, you have to stay ahead, or stay on top of it. Keeping a high cadence definitely helps. 92-95.
I’m disappointed in you mate. I always imagined you grinding 60rpm for days … 90rpm 😱 you’ve changed 😂
Yes this exact situation has happened to me ! Luckily my son sorted me out 😂, the trick is as you say maintain cadence say 80 -90 rpm , the trainer seems to learn the cadence you are using , as l have noticed there is definitely a delay when let’s say interval begin & cadence has changed !
The trainer doesn't learn your cadence. I was doing intervals last night where I had to maintain 70 rpm. I've done training plans in the past that take the cadence down to 50 rpm for some intervals (simulating a long climb). If the power is set to 400W and you're doing 20 rpm then of course its going to be hard or impossible.
Hey Chris, on a side note, how did you find the Elite Direto XR? I'm in the process of upgrading my indoor set up and trying to decide between the Elite and the Wahoo kickr. Congrats on the 20k subscribers too mate!
Stay safe Chris.
What are you talking about?!?! You keep the cadence up. If you drop cadence to 50 or below, the resitence will go up. So you have to stop, let the trainer reset then quickly go again, but yes you can't let the trainer bog down and no you can't do slow cadence hard efforts on a trainer in ERG mode.
If you use a small gear it is possible. Using a 34-28 or better still a 34-34 on most trainers will allow you to overcome the mechanical resistance of the trainer.
As a nowhere near pro (not neo pro 😂) I find ERG mode has its uses for me. I think power wise it doesn't matter if you do more or less on the road, do a ftp and work to that, don't worry what the actually number is, if you know it was all out then its just a number to work off. I only use egg mode for workouts on zwift or sufferfest and find it great in winter for maintaining fitness in shorter sessions, an hour on the turbo is 5 hours in real life haha. I personally wouldn't use it for just sitting at zone 2 for 3 hours. But that's just me, that might well work and be someone's idea of fun!! What was great during lockdown here was the ability to use the turbo on zwift and organise group rides then use discord to chat and keep the group vibes alive, very positive mentally to do that.
I guess it's each to there own with ERG, it's all about how you use it.
Top videos as always Chris.
Thanks Paul, some good tips on what you do there, thanks for sharing
I got my 2nd moderna shot on a Thursday, I ended up feeling so out of it, cancelled weekend riding. My advice; don't get 2nd shot on Thursday or Friday, if you do, you won't be riding on the weekend. ERG mode is a killer, but it does make you stronger out on the road.
Had zero issues using ERG mode (Wahoo Kickr with Trainer Road). You're not supposed to ease off the power that has been set, yes it is supposed to be constant. If you want to "ease off" then you need to drop the power that has been set.
You're not supposed to use ERG mode in normal Zwift free riding, it is only for workouts/ramp tests.
That’s my point Mike, it requires this change of mindset from “I’m going to take a pedal stroke off” or “I need to speed up my cadence so I’m going to drop a few gears” to “I’m hurting, so now is the moment to increase my effort”. As I said this is completely new to someone used to riding these efforts on the road, and I hate to say it but experienced trainer people laugh at you or think you are “weak” for asking.
I find that Erg mode is a bit of a learned thing. Once you get used to it it’s ok but if you drop the cadence it’ll grind you to a halt. I only use it for efforts over one minute long though
So funny... I just realized that i was training only in ERG mode XD
I started with cycling this year and bought a cheap second hand Tacx Flow, which is not "smart" but it has this mode aswell.
And funnily I only used this mode... did like 50 hours so far.
You just have to keep the cadence up XD
Similar to what everyone else said, ERG is a learned skill but once you master it it’s actually quite simple. I use it 95% of my rides as Zwift workouts with my Wattbike. On the tough efforts keep the cadence up, when coming out of low cadence efforts you need a couple of seconds of easier wattage first to spin it up before hitting the harder effort.
Hey Sharon, yeh like is said I am loving the challenge, it’s just the shock of the first few rides that really got me … and the fact I couldn’t seem to find anyone talking about it online (hence me thinking the trainer was broken).
I always do my Workouts on level mode and Zwift on Erg to avoid the spiral.
The other issue with ERG is when simulating GPS routes, it feels like the route is impossible to complete!
Erg Mode..... well ya where do we start. Great for longer duration intervals, flippenhard when doing stairs and over unders. Resistance changes have to be dialled in to make the change less dramatic. The Hammer H3 is probably the softest in the transition and the Tacx Neo family the hardest. I have the Neo. So when executing short duration high power intervals I switch ERG off.
Big gear / strength work / low cadence efforts in erg mode is like walking the tightrope. Having the option to add torque as a parameter would help - cant imagine there's much training benefit by going to the bottom of a spiral.
I use Wahoo Kickr, in that situation: TrainerRoad
!; if that section only less 1 mins, you are in group ride near finishing line;
2; if that section still 4-5 mins; use the easier gear, you are in 15% up hill, do not stop until you finish it; and do not go to group ride the next day...
I would be interested if you tried Rouvy. I use it but seem to think it is not perfect resistance wise.
Have had a death spiral. But only when I am running out of legs. only use ERG mode when on a training plan and need to hit numbers. Trick I found was to be at the the required power before the change up happened. Otherwise SIM mode. Recent convert from Zwift to Fulgaz, much more immersive.
Hey Mark, 100% agree about being ‘in front’ of the power before it changes.
maybe you´re to old for ERG-mode, Chris ? ;-)
I had this on fulgaz, I thought my copy of it was corrupted.
HAHA!!!
Whenever I would try erg I couldn’t finish a workout and would have subpar numbers. Switch it off, boom finish workouts with good numbers.
MASSIVE DIFFERENCE between ERG mode experience between the XR Elite Direto and the Wahoo Kicker. I’ve owned both and Wahoo Kicker actually works. When using the Direto I had to try VERY HARD to maintain a watt zone by regulating my power through cadence and sometimes gear. With the Wahoo I can ride any cadence and it’s as smooth as butter when doing specific workout programs on Zwift. The difference is shocking. All trainers and programs are not equal.
Erg mode since day1 of using smart trainer.
Completely screwed me on some hammer downs the other day. Not had an issue with them but I couldn't maintain 200W's and it just got harder and harder. Ended up gassing myself and had to stop :(
What is that front wheel on your bike? Looks like a motor?
The power (resistance) is calculated by Force X Speed (Cadence). Most trainers work on a sweet spot of 90rpm. If your cadence drops below this, the resistance of the trainer will increase to maintain a constant power. So if you halve your cadence the resistance will double. If your cadence goes above the norm setting, the resistance drops to maintain the set power and you could in theory spin it out. Wahoo have a great page explaining the different trainer modes that is worth reading. support.wahoofitness.com/hc/en-us/articles/204281764-What-Are-the-Different-Modes-On-My-Smart-Trainer-. Level mode on Wahoo has the closest resistance curve (being parabolic) to outdoor riding and is the setting I use most often as it allows for daily variances in power output rather than power being statically set in Erg mode
The trainer can do constant resistance (constant torque), but that is not what ERG mode is. ERG mode is constant power, and power is the product of torque and angular velocity. From this it follows that for a given power, if angular velocity decreases, torque must increase, and that is exactly what the spiral is all about; the slower you go, the more torque you must apply.
I gave up and use sim mode only for unstructured training. It's called Zwift Racing... Much more fun and hopefully hit some zones... Who cares, it's fun.
I suppose I didn’t really want to “compare” modes or platforms in this one, just wanted to know if other people had this pitfall and what the did about it. Seems most people have, and their solution … bugger off to Zwift and do a race 😂
@@ChrisMillerCycling Great video, made me feel much better that I'm not alone. Couple of mates use it all the time. I've given up on it.
Quite frankly it is rubbish when I use it on zwift ideas OK but needs refining as going form low watts to high watts if you keep the same cadence it will lock you up or try to, as it does not bring in resistance gradually enough, its like going from 2% grade to 8% with nothing in between. Only way to cope is to spin faster which ends you up spinning faster than you want That's my experience
So true 😂
Use the small ring, mid-cassette to keep flywheel speed up. Once the flywheel slows you are in the spiral of death.
Those headphones 🎧 and doing indoor session. Welcome to mucky ear slops.
HAHA!!! Yeh … it’s a sweaty mess that’s for sure
This always happen when I do FTP test. So now I have to do ramp tests.
You turn off ERG mode for traditional FTP tests, they are about you maintaining the power not the trainer setting it for you (Ramp tests are done with ERG on)
Been there. I’m a low cadence rider.
you get used to ERG mode pretty soon. just pick ur preferred cadence and NEVER STOP PEDALLING :p
Erg mode can be urgh mode. Zwift structured workouts require it and are great, but have experienced the death spiral more than a few times on hard efforts when in over my head.
🤮
HAHA!!! I hear you. It’s funny cause when I went online to do all the trouble shooting on the trainer (cause I was sure it was broken), there was no mention of it. Then I think I called Leo or one of the guys in the team and they were like “ok yeh … happens all the time!”. 🤷🏻♂️
@@ChrisMillerCycling makes me feel better, I thought I was just soft
Death spiral or sh*t drivers, I know which one I would rather experience during an internal session!
Get my second on the 30th
Keep July 1 free 😉
ERG needs to be done in little ring too
Really … that’s so weird as I have just as many people saying it’s all about the big ring
@@ChrisMillerCycling well i originally used to use big ring. but, david pacheco, the head of my zwift team (dPAC-ELITE) said it’s the little ring and around the 15t at the back as it allows the turbo to apply resistance more easily and it has really helped me. give it a try and see if it works👍🏼🤟🏼
Erg mode is only good for zone 2 movie sessions.
HAHA!! Thanks for sharing Andrew, though it’s funny isn’t it … half the comments here are “do short efforts” and then there are guys like you who are tapping out hours at it.
To use erg mode without a zwift workout is really dumb. Uninfomed Videos like this will only cause more confusion....
I can't do it
Yeah I don’t use erg mode after having the spiral a few times
Yes it certainly came as a rude shock to me
You get used to catching it before it wins
@@ChrisMillerCycling yeah it’s not fun
It’s not a death spiral. It’s you failing the interval. Knock the power back and let the pain come to you. If the spiral comes. Just skip the interval
welcome to the Vaccination club:
felt akward the whole day after shot 2.
Headache, dizziness, joint pain (like runover by a truck).
Day 2: everything fine again
No, no spiral of death and years into using smart trainers and ERG mode. Had a spiral once = faulty trainer. So that doesn't count. I can free wheel, I can climb and its just regulates the watts regardless of the cadence be it 60 or 100 rpm or the gears. But Fulgaz is a bit pants at it. Try Zwift and maybe invest in a trainer that can handle erg mode like Wahoo.
Pure agony and suffering....thats what i expect from erg mode...every single time
Hope you’re still getting vaxed up 😂
It's really not that hard to use erg mode.
Don't use it it's crap lol.......
No it isn't. You're using it wrong.
Ok, I'm gonna be honest with you. I don't like your video. I get that you're frustrated, but that's when you do your due diligence to find out what ERG mode is, how it works, and how to use it in your training. I watched your whole video and still don't have the answer to any of those questions. The one thing I can sort of get is that it's probably for endurance training, both physical and mental. You could probably start on low and dial it up once you have your cadence going. I imagine this might improve your FTP.
Next time you title your video this way, start right away with what ERG mode is. That way, you and your viewer are on the same page.
Thanks for your feedback