@@WunstarSymbiosis It reminds me of Twin Peaks: The Return when the quack psychologist ends up shilling himself out to a non-specific, radical side of America that’s too paranoid to listen to anything other than pirate-radio. What’s he shilling?.. A shiny, gold shovel that, just by buying it for $49.99, will magically transform into an arcane talisman that will , “…shovel your way out of the shit!…” and the only people desperate enough to buy a shovel are the only ones that find the metaphysical significance of their own lives, (a la ‘meaning’). *Goldmask would be my choice-analog for the psychologist-quack.
The fact that Radagon is so good at "mimicking" others makes me think he is a mimic tear, and he emulates the women with whom he is involved to try to feel complete...meaningful...to feel "Kenough".
If anything marika would be the mimic tear and radagon would be Amber. Both of them would be silver and gold, with radagon absolutely being the golden half. There’s actually some theory’s if you make certain assumptions that the nox at some point managed to successfully create a perfect being as they were trying to do so and that was marika. It is possible the numen are silver as their flesh melds harmoniously just like silver tears.
I started playing this game not too long ago. As of now I’m more than halfway there to finishing, in that time I’ve devoured lore videos and this video right here is the closest I’ve Ever come to understanding anything.
You've got a great handle on this theme of consciousness and psychology, but I fear you've taken this one theme so far that it's pushing out the rest of the complexities within the story and world. Let's start by addressing the idea that we as the player are "the action to Marika's thoughts," and so were the other Elden Lords. Truth is, we are given full agency over which fate befits the Lands. To simply act out Marika's thoughts would involve nullifying our choice in some way. There are games where you are given the illusion of choice, but that's clearly not what's going on in Elden Ring given the stark differences in the fate of the world for each ending. "In Marika's own words. Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices..." "There is something I'd like to say. My purpose was given to me by my mother. But now, I act of my own volition. I have set my heart upon the world that I would have. Regardless of my mother's designs. I won't allow anyone to speak ill of that. Not even you." I can definitely see why the animus theory is enticing as an answer to how Radagon is Marika, and I think that general concept can hold without removing Radagon's agency and individuality to such a great degree. Instead of painting him as this psychological concept, we can see him as another person grown from the Erdtree (see TA's "The evidence for people growing on trees in Elden Ring"). But unlike most, he contains a large part of Marika herself. There's precedent for that in the Lands because gods are represented as symbols housed within a vassal, and we also see the ability to take one's consciousness out and transplant it to a new vessel with Sellen's primal glintstone. Remember that Radagon's emergence would most likely be right around the Night of the Black Knives when Marika begins experiencing serious internal conflict about the Golden Order's fate and validity. So she is placing in Radagon the part of her will that is intent to correct the flaws in the Golden Order. Meanwhile the other half of herself is free to confront the possibility that she must give up on her grand design and allow a new order to reign. She can formulate another plan. Radagon goes off and learns about the world and comes back with Inner Order. Marika sees promise in the idea and calls him back to explore it further through empyrean twins (empyrean meaning "source of light," the light at the end of the tunnel or ascent to heaven). At this point, Radagon helps guide their growth and he rejoins with Marika (with all of the symbolism of an alchemical rebis, their magnum opus). It's only after Malenia fails to overcome her rot and Miquella is kidnapped before he could form a true successor to the Erdtree that Marika realizes the Outer Order and Totality they strove towards won't be achieved. It's a moment of ultimate crisis in which Radagon is weakest that her doubtful half follows through on plan B. "In Marika's own words. O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us be shattered, both. Mine other self." That explains Radagon, but we still need to solidify what the role of Elden Lord is supposed to be. He's a special case, but what Radagon has in common with Godfrey and ourselves, the tarnished guided by grace, is that we each bring to bear our own ideals shaped by the culture and values of the Lands towards a reshaping of the Elden Ring. It draws heavy parallels to the concept of a mother and father who are both needed to raise a family. But in this case, the family is the whole realm and the parents are trying to evolve with the changing times. In Godfrey's time, strength and warfare were needed until all threats were defeated. In Radagon's time as lord, scholarship was needed to explore all options...until the only option was to give up. We prove ourselves able to overcome a shattered world and can then pick up the pieces.
Thanks for the watch and critique. A few items of rebuttal. This is only part 3 of what will probably end up being 10 parts that explain the depths and complexities of the story in regards to psychology. In other words, you are seeing a tiny portion of a basketball and calling it flat without seeing the whole picture. I believe our choice of endings simply shows the choices one has when confronted with a crisis. Like I explained in the video, one can turn to chaos, nihilism, double down, etc. It doesn't nullify it all but instead shows the complexities of going through the process of individuation and how it can turn out. Just like Oscar, Berhnal, Vyke, they all had choices as to what to do in the face of a crisis.- I also think a choice of endings is accounted to the replayability of the game but that's me wearing the corporate hat. "In Marika's own words. Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices..." "There is something I'd like to say. My purpose was given to me by my mother. But now, I act of my own volition. I have set my heart upon the world that I would have. Regardless of my mother's designs. I won't allow anyone to speak ill of that. Not even you. " I'm not 100% sure what you are trying to imply here? Can you help me out? I agree that everyone is born of the Erdtree - like TA so aptly says- I am just saying its a metaphor for the psyche is all. You say that Radagon is a unique case compared to the other EL's "So she is placing in Radagon the part of her will that is intent to correct the flaws in the Golden Order. " but honestly I think you are making my point for me. She did the same with Godfrey but her will was to destroy all opposition and clear the way for the erdtree....... then gold left his eyes and he was hounded from the LB. If that isn't the action to someone's thoughts (brainwashed) im not sure what is. That seems to be what the guidance of grace is, Marika pointing us in a direction and we act out her will. To think Radagon has explored enough to have a "finished" Order is false. It's not until we defeat Radahn and crack open the depths that we truly understand the world as a whole. This is what is happening inside of Marika. With Radagon, she tried to do this without searching the depths of her psyche i.e. eternal cities - and this is why they failed. You can't paint a picture with just a brush - you need the paint as well. Every EL is a deeper dive, a step in maturity. My last point is a question. Do you think the story is the same without Godfrey? Like if Radagon was the only Elden Lord and he defeated all of Marika's foes, (Fire Giants, stormlord) did his Golden Order thing, etc. To me, the only reason to put Godfrey in the game, give him a body we all are jealous of, have him only care about "Strength", have grace leave his eyes and leave the LB is because he is the first stage. You replace Radagon with Godfrey and the story doesn't change.......
@@CenteredTarnished Overall getting mixed messages from your argument because you're saying the psychological aspect is a metaphor (agree) and then suggesting it dictates literally everything that happens in the story (disagree). Unless that changes in subsequent parts, I don't see how they could make the case stronger. Using metaphorical tropes in your story is fine to some extent, but it can't be the whole thing. At least if you want to do more than slap a new paint job over an existing fable. Miyazaki uses a lot of different inspiration and so far has been very meticulous in always twisting the original concept into something different. A prime example is the world tree. We see the Erdtree and Yggdrasil comes immediately to mind, only to learn that it's actually a burnt husk wearing a phantom skin only we can see, and that it used to literally absorb the dead to grow new life in its branches. The connections to Jungian psychology will need to be handled similarly, especially considering that if that Erdtree and everything else was merely a figment of Marika's thoughts, then it lessens the importance and grandeur of those discoveries. A world purely of the mind no longer has any rules beyond the basic tenets Jung laid out. Literally anything can happen because it's all a dream. We need even the most fantastical worlds to have hard rules so that the characters in them don't become omniscient, capable of inventing solutions to any conflict from thin air. My point leading up to Melina's quotes is that we see many instances where main characters are free to choose of their own free will, going against the idea that they and the player character are just following through on Marika's thoughts. Those quotes are supporting evidence where Marika is telling the demigods to choose for themselves and Melina is specifically going against Marika's will.
@@NickCombs I'm not sure what you are wanting. If you are expecting me to perfectly sum up both metaphorically and empirically (which doesn't exist in fantasy i.e. can you sum up the laws of the Marvel Universe that govern it? or can you explain the empirical rules of Bloodborne.... which is actually a dream..... and a work of Miyazaki's) that's never going to happen. In the video, I make it clear that Jung spent a lifetime looking at ALL of these mythical stories across time and noticed similarities in them all. He made the conclusion that each of these stories are metaphors of the human psychological experience i.e. the collective unconscious. Again, I don't think you realize you are making my point for me. Jung broke down these stories into their Prime Mater and attached their meanings to different aspects of the human psyche. Also, the Erdtree isn't Marika's brought into existence due to Marika thinking it and thus anything can be thought of and the world dives into chaos. They are symbols of aspects of her psyche. Growing as she grows, shattering as she shatters, transforming as she transforms, etc. As far as the quotes, to paraphrase Jung on not going through the individuation process: "What is the harm in not distinguishing oneself? One falls into indistinctiveness.... into the dissolution of nothingness. This is the death of the creature." This is what Marika is stating to her "children". It's not like I have the exact same qualities today that I did 15 years ago. My life and situation has changed and the aspects of myself that don't grow and evolve along with me - I sacrifice. Melina doesn't have a "mother" as implied by Boc's questline. She is the Self of Marika and her saying that quote is evidence that she is transforming and doesn't care what anyone thinks - she knows what she needs to do. To be honest, this theory isn't for everyone. I believe it is the story and the most comprehensive theory we have so far. If you don't like it, that's cool but I'm not going to stop because you don't understand it. There's hundreds of hours of videos about how Farum Azula is floating in the sky because it got hit by a meteor and is just chilling. I believe it's a metaphor for the human psyche. I'd love to have you on a livestream and ask as many questions as you like. I can't provide evidence for my theory in this medium.
@@CenteredTarnished I don't think I have any request here. It's just my interpretation of the story and how I view the psychological themes as a reaction to your theory so far. It seems like we agree on many things and it's only the nuance of how much influence those themes have over the rest of the story where we seem to be at odds. Perhaps it boils down to my preference for more tangible explanations. I certainly would not want you to change your mind based on my response if your interpretation improves your experience of the game's lore. You're right that it's very hard to fully define all aspects of a fictional world as complex as Elden Ring. I think I could do a decent job given enough time, and it's been done by others. But it's a herculean task. I find I often need time to internalize and collect my thoughts before responding, so I'm not generally an avid streamgoer. I will look out for your stream though. Definitely true that putting thoughts to writing also comes with its own challenges, especially in comments where we don't have images, links, etc. Anyway, thanks for the valuable discussion!
@@NickCombs Honestly, one of the hardest parts of putting this theory out there is how to disseminate the information. I wouldn't say depth psychology is part of the general knowledge so trying to explain the concept itself then tying it to the game because this game not only goes a mile deep but also a mile wide to the theory has to as well. I'm trying to go a mile deep on each subject but it puts blinders on the rest of the theory as trying to do it all at once is incredibly complicated. I have spent a year reading a myriad of text from Jung and I honestly do think it tells at least the main plot of the game - hopefully I can do it justice and tell the story in an impactful, comprehensive way. I hope you stick around for the next parts and hop into a stream or 2!
'Radagon is not special in any way' isnt necessarily the intended inference. Quite the opposite in fact. Radagon is the missing special 'half' of Marika. See, you have to bring in the alchemical lore. Mercury (Marika) and Sulphur (Radagon) create the Philosopher's stone (Miquella) which creates the substance that can turn a thing into gold. In elden ring terms 'unalloyed gold'. You can watch my video on it as I go deeper into it :)
Believe me, I understand the alchemical aspects of this concept. Reading the Anatomy of the Psyche: The Alchemical Symbolism in Psychotherapy, The Mysterium Lectures and the Mysterium Coinctionus all are about the psychological meaning behind the Magnum Opus. My meaning behind Radagon not being special, only refers with respect to the other Elden Lords. Meaning the other Elden Lords also shared a body due to them also being Marika's Animus at that stage of development. I too agree that Miquella represents the Philosopher's Stone aka Marika 2.0 but it's clear that this process is not quite done yet - as evidenced by Mohg. Radagon didn't have all the information which is why we (stage 3) have to search the depths of the world to gather said information and reset the process one last time. Each time this process occurs, Miquella grows. Radagon being the Red King is spot on but we are the next version of the Red King - a more developed version, fit to bring the Philosopher's Stone closer to perfection. If it is Miquella in the DLC picture, this shows that without us his story and development stops. If Radagon was the true final version of her Animus and Red King - Miquella would have been perfect - there would be no need for us. Just as the Memory of Grace states: It's merely a cycle. Stand before the Elden Ring - become the Elden Lord. So to is the Alchemical magnum opus. It takes many cycles of burning and condensing before the Stone is complete.
Oh yeah! I absolutely agree. In fact, the DLC will probably see us helping Miquella in some way to get to the final stage of maturity. Cant wait to see where Fromsoft is going to take it!@@CenteredTarnished
Miyazaki made a bet with his buddy that he could make people go so deep and philosophical over a game that he would cause world peace as a side effect because everyone is to busy thinking about his game lol
All I'm currently thinking about is how the "impaler's catacombs" is somewhat close to the 4th church and he's red, covered in the unsavoury visions for the erdtree.
I have thought for a while that Miquella will take on Melina's role as a guide we can talk to at Sites of Grace inside the DLC areas, that would fit well with this theory!
This is great! I’ve been interpreting a lot of the game along Jungian/alchemical lines. I’m not sure if I agree with the idea that everyone is Marika but I’m kind of stunned that I hadn’t even thought of it until now. It does resolve a great deal of what hasn’t made sense. Thanks for this!
It's not just in Marika's mind but the Tarnished (Us) as well. We're the new vessal from the beginning. Go to Maliketh, The Black Blade Site of Grace after arriving at Leyndell, Ashen Capital. Stand where you are facing away from the Elden Ring and the Marika/Wolves statue but in front of the grace where the grace is lined up between your legs and the grace is also touching the candles. Center your camera and use the Erudition gesture. Take a screenshot and flip it upside down to reveal the current Elden Ring and its vassal, Us the Tarnished. Also The Elden Beast may be an Astrological Age, specifically the Age of Pisces from the Cetus-Pisces Cluster (Whale-Serpent/Duo Fish, Elden Beast/Radagon Marika) in the Laniakea Supercluster (Elden Beast' central nervous and circulatory system) coming to its end through the original outer God, The Primordial Formless Mother which used The Primeval Current/The Greater Will (Space/Time) to accomplish this.
I'm sure Miazaki thought exactly of the player standing there using a specific gesture and looking at the screen upside down when he designed that wall relief
Him and the whole FromSoft team did. One other thing I'll mention is if you take that picture not only does it become The Elden Ring from the cover, it also matches up with what would be your players central nervous system because all of ours look similar to tree roots by design similar to the Elden Ring. As a matter of fact they line up perfectly. Go check it out for yourself and then you can criticize me all you want, as long as it's constructive criticism then It all for it.
@@WunstarSymbiosis you have intrigued me. If only I could reproduce what you are talking about. When someone catches a glimpse of hidden wisdom they appear to be out of touch with the others. I know from personal experience. However, we often are simply out of touch. But true wisdom always appears (at the outset) as indistinguishable from madness. You sir are teetering on the very brink. Are you on the brink of madness or revelation?
I would add Miyazaki has always been big on hiding the formless mother motif (Euronyme & Nyx/Nox in the primordial Greek pantheon). I need to get this screenshot and see if you’re onto something.
This was an amazing video! I've just finished it. I was writing separate comments to increase activity and help your channel's algorithm :P Maybe not perfectly aligned with some of the things in my analysis but your commentary and Jungian explorations are fascinating. As a student of psychology, I really liked it. I havent yet done a video on the Jungian aspects of Elden ring just as I havent also done to its alchemical side. Both of them deserve a single long episode to explain its subtleties. I've also realized, that your videos actually have very similar vibes to my style as you dont simply regurgitate text but allow its lore to take a new meaning within a fresh context. I'll rewatch this video and add my commentary to some of the explorations you've made. I'm currently on the brink of completing my tarnished video. It will be THE most complex video I've ever made so I hope you look forward to it. As I look forward to seeing more videos from you!
Much appreciated! I subbed to your channel and very much look forward to seeing you grow. I too am sick of the 4 hour videos just relaying the in game text- it clearly hasn’t gotten us any further into understanding the world. Let me know if you want to collaborate on the psych video or alchemy video! I’ll add comments and watches to your vids as well:) Much love
First, I'd just like to say this was a great video - you put a lot of effort into the research, and I think you're doing a good job of summarizing Jung's theories to those who may be unfamiliar. On God I smashed that like and subscribe. In my opinion there is a very Jungian trap of flattening complex or mystical experience into a pure psychological framing. Jung did this with alchemy and the works of the alchemists - while bringing them into intellectual vogue in a post enlightenment era, he also stripped them of their true potency or spiritual significance. I think you're falling into this trap as well, and flattening some of the depth of Elden Ring. Elden Ring is a complex game, and while I think that Jungian analysis and a psychological framing does do a lot to illuminate in regards to Marika's history specifically, I would be careful of trying to extend it to literal interpretation of all of the events that transpired or the whole lands between. For a concrete example of where this breaks down, I don't think your theory of Godfrey / Radagon / the Tarnished being literal stages of animus development holds a lot of water. The Tarnished is certainly not the Professor (another term for this stage is "Man of Words" - how much does the tarnished speak? How much authority does the tarnished hold in the lands between?), and while I think it's certainly interesting to consider that perhaps Godfrey and Radagon could be nods to the stages of a developing animus, I would not present this as clear fact or the whole of their significance, because it isn't. I'm sure that it's tempting to say that you've "solved" or figured out what Elden Ring is about, particularly when putting together a video essay for youtube. I hope in future videos, which I honestly do look forward to watching, you resist the temptation to be so definitive, and provide more room for the possibility of allegory or different interpretations. I believe that is much more true to Miyazaki's intentions when he makes these games.
Thanks for the comment. I certainly don't think Jungian psychology applies to every single event in the game - I know Miyazaki uses an untold amount of inspiration and cross pollinates them to a point where you may never find the true source. I do however think the teachings of Jung are a major source for the main plot of the game as further evidenced by the DLC title. And, to be honest, I do this as a hobby and still have a very busy schedule so I simply don't have the time or resources to dive into every single possibility of inspiration. Jung has gotten me the furthest into understanding the Night of the Black Knives all the way to the DLC and more so I will continue pulling on this thread until it doesn't make sense. I do disagree about the stages of Animus development and that you don't see the connection to us being a professor of the world. First off, it's a FromSoft game so we will never say much as the PC. We do however uncover all the secrets and learn more about the world and history than anyone else in the LB. If that's not a scholar of the world, I don't know what would be. Now, that's not unique to games that the PC is this type of character who learns about the world then decides what is best moving forward once they ultimately make it to the top. What makes it unique is the Elden Lords that come before us. If you choose to accept that Godfrey and Radagon fit the description of the first 2 stages of Animus development, it must follow that we are the 3rd. I'm not sure you can have it both ways where you believe 2 out of the 3 but not the third. There is way to much evidence for human psychology and development for it not to be the biggest source of inspiration. That being said, I am very open to other ideas and don't want it to come off definitive but honestly I haven't come across something that ties the events in game as well as this. A lot of the "criticism" I get all sound very much like your comment where they agree but that Jung isn't the end all be all (which I agree) but provide no alternatives. So, until I hear an alternative that explains why theirs brain images on the map, why the map is a fetus in a womb, why the Night of the Black Knives mirrors exactly with The Dark Night of the Soul, the fact that the Ego is going through solutio, the contents of the collective unconscious, the terms of shadow and what they are in game, Melina as the Self and the vessel for all the aspects of the psyche, The process of Individuation, Outer Gods vs our inner God, the fact that we are going into the Shadow realm in the DLC, the list goes on and on and on - and they all come from one source ; Jung. That doesn't mean that smaller side quests have nothing to do with Jung and honestly, I don't care. You can skip every single side quest and it still complete the game and it would still point towards human psychology. This channel is all about how human psychology can be applied to answer some of the biggest questions in the game - right or wrong. I think it gives a deeper understanding to those willing to listen. Just as the Tarnished Archeologist is very narrow in his videos, I am in mine. I will leave it up to the community to put together various pieces and make the story "whole" for themselves. But my channel won't change.
@@CenteredTarnished Totally, and I certainly wouldn't expect you to dive into every possible point of inspiration. I understand that you're approaching your channel and videos from a specific perspective, and I think that's cool. Miyazaki majored in social science, so I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that he draws from a deep well there when crafting his games. I'm glad that someone is exploring this more seriously. I guess I'm just suggesting in your videos more language of "this is what I see" versus "this is what it is". I think that would be more honest. RE Animus development - even in Jung's work, the stages are not as clean as you present them. A woman will encounter her animus in different "stages" or forms depending on where she is in her relationship with masculine principles in herself and in the external world. It's not linear in experience, though there is a hierarchy in regards to advancement towards the goal of integration. So keep that in mind. I also don't think that Godfrey or Radagon fit cleanly into the stages as you've presented them. Godfrey is not just a war chief, but a loving father, as we see in his scene with Margit. Same with Radagon - he is more than just a man of action, but also of intellect and compassion. So like I said in my first comment, while I think it's interesting to consider that Miyazaki might have applied some Jungian theory when writing Marika's two lovers, I think trying to say literally that they "are" her developing animus does the characters (and writing) a disservice. I don't want to get too into rebuttals here, but I'll just mention that the tarnished is more defined by their lack of knowledge than the knowledge they possess. Even by the end of the game, many (most) players will have killed the elden beast with absolutely no understanding of what the hell just happened. I don't know why you are saying that we uncover all of the secrets? Nokron? We can kill Radahn, opening the path for Ranni to walk, but we don't discover it. She (and Seluvis, Blaidd, Ijji, Sellen) already know way more about it. Even becoming Elden Lord, every ending is essentially enacting the order (a greater authority than us) that was vying for power long before we arrived. We're never installing our own order. I think my man Margit does more to explain our character than anyone else in the game: "Tarnished... thou art but a fool." I don't want you to change your channel, like I said, I like the angle. I just think you seem to use a very definitive language, and are also taking what is perhaps a seed of inspiration (Jung) and stretching it over the whole game. You bring up the tarnished archeologist, so just to contrast - their channel takes like a piece of architecture or a sculpture, and talks about what it could be in reference to in the real world, and the implications on that specific civilization in the lands between. I don't think they have a single video on what the games story as a whole is about. I think it's great to bring psychology into the "discourse" around Elden Ring, so I'm on your side there man, I would just encourage you to be careful to not cast too wide a net when discussing this game in particular, as you may have done with this video. All the best to you moving forward though, truly.
@@K33ntanWhile I get what you're saying, psychology is the study of the human mind. Everything we do is dictated by it, even the words we type or the symbols we use to create something or represent something. So, looking at the story from a psychological perspective is a great idea. I'm sure we agree on that. I would also say that conscious or not, we can manifest aspects of the collective unconscious in our words, deeds and creations, even without consciously meaning to do so. It's in the name, unconscious. Also, as it has been stated, the focus has to be more narrow to be able to be coherent. This even applies with the game. Even with all the cultures being represented it still has to be a more narrow focus, otherwise the game would have never released. So, I think that instead of the developers making the characters or Godfrey and Radagon more complex and more realistic, the choice to make them simpler and more well defined had to be done for the sake of simplicity. They honestly could and may well represent more nuanced and messy therefore more realistic characters, yet still, focusing on them as more cookie cutter makes the stages easier to dissect and more understandable. Sure that leaves out nuance, yet again, it's harder to put all that into a more concise format like a video. Just so you know, I'm not saying this as an attack or to be offensive, just to say that it makes sense, the direction that Centered here is taking and that it's not necessarily a bad thing. Just my two cents.
If Radagon is Marika i.e. the same person then it makes sense that Rykard, Ranni, & Radahn are biologically Marika's children as well. They were likely called "stepchildren" to keep the Secret of Radagon & Marika hidden.
For the same reason Morgott and Mohg are Omens but Godwyn isn't? I have yet to see clear cut evidence that rules out chance as a factor. If the goal was creating more empyreans, and it was based on the chance of the children retaining marika's nature as one, then radagon's union still makes sense as the sure fire way to produce empyrean offspring, though with the results of incest, but not necessarily the only way, hence ranni being one as well, though one out of three attempts
@@marcogianesello6083 Then what about the Gloam Eyed Queen? You're right, you can't prove a negative and there's never going to be clear cut evidence of probably anything - that's how FromSoft does it. We only know that empyreans are born of a single god. Whether that's the ONLY factor may never be understood. Twins are a statistical probability in every pregnancy. I would think becoming a God would have more to it than that. But who knows.
@@CenteredTarnished It looks like only the female children can become Empyreans. Miquella is the exception because they also share a lot of feminine traits, such as their possible alter ego of "St. Trina".
Up to this point, I was interested in Yung's works, but I couldn't get myself to actually research it. For instance, Persona 5 was cool and all, but in terms of psychology, it explores many schools of thought and fields of study, not just Jung. But here, this video has been so informative that I think you convinced me that this is an opportunity too intriguing to pass up. So, thanks for getting me to add Jung to my reading list, I hope this will add to my perspective in ways I could never imagine.
To me it must’ve been the key figures in her lifetime: Her father figure Godfrey , Radagon her brother older brother figure in the real world then us the actual pc who she finds a therapist relationship with or ends up putting her on the right road. Depending upon the ending we choose.
I think it's a bit weird that, with the exception of maybe one or two examples, Marika produces twins across all of her couplings-but Radagon doesn't. I feel like that's significant somehow. Even with Godfrey, Marika produced twins-Morgott and Mohg. The two possible exceptions are Godwyn and Melina, neither of whom are known to have twins. The problem with Messmer being Godwyn's twin is that Messmer seems to be related to Radagon, whereas Godwyn is the son of Godfrey. So I'm not sure; maybe Godwyn was an instance where the union of Marika and Godfrey was able to produce a single child whose nature was not divided into a set of twins. Because Melina seems to be a more even blend of Marika and Radagon (which I feel her pink hair is meant to signify), it could be that she also doesn't have a twin, but like Godwyn was the result of a successful coupling.
At the start, I think the "demigod question" is looked into too deeply - for example, while item lore reveals Godfrey was a "demigod", it's easy to explain that AS ELDEN LORD, one is more than mere mortal, but certainly less than a "god" such as Marika (though the term is laughable to me when she is herself just a mortal EMPOWERED by an Outer God; the Greater Will). This, however, is clearly an exception to the statement of "all demigods are the children of Queen Marika" since the culture of what it means to be a demigod is significantly different from the context of calling Godfrey one; in the common context, "a demigod" is by definition "a child of Marika" (even if by "adoption") because she, as a "god" would naturally produce demigods when doing the dirty with a mortal. One could, in a sense, call ALL those in the Lands Between pre-Shattering demigods, depending on your perspective - would not someone from outside the Lands Between, yet who still worships the Greater Will, view the immortal, undying and powerful denizens of that land as anything but divine, even if only a little? To get back to the topic at hand, the implication that is not outright stated, but is inferred, is that Godfrey is a very different kind of demigod - because, like I said, the word "demigod" in modern times is synonymous with being a child of Marika. Thus, "all demigods (half god-half mortal) are the direct offspring of Marika (THE god)" as opposed to "Godfrey was the first demigod" in the sense of being elevated to a higher existence by his union with Marika, but still not being quite a god himself -ergo, demigod in the more literal sense, as in "only partly a god" TL;DR basically the context of what "demigod" means is different though the word used is the same
Similarly, that "Empyrians are born of a single god" carries the implication of "as opposed to a god an a mortal" while those more in the know would also connect the dots with the idea that Marika and Radagon are literally the same person and thus "born of a single god" may imply "born of a union of a god with itself", though that brings into question how often this is supposed to happen considering Marika herself was also an empyrian - also the fact that it's blatantly false considering Ranni is also an empyrian, but this may very well loop back to the idea I already posited - these aren't so much "literal facts" as "facts as someone in the modern cultural and social context of the Lands Between may understand them". Think how Omen are said to be cursed while we as players may piece together that it's not a curse at all but a blessing from the Crucible; though it's not like a follower of the Golden Order would even see the difference. Of course, that all this occurs in Marika's psyche is a very valid idea - since I also hold belief that the various "Outer" Gods are also merely manifestations of concepts inherent to the world and thus a part of a greater whole, I can't rightly disprove such a theory as they are quite similar and in fact compatible with each other.
Haha I’m not disagreeing with you but if anyone is looking to much into what Enia says, i think it might be you my man. If anything, I am trying to make it as simple as possible without adding any unnecessary items to the equation. It’s the simple fact that our “wise old lady”, Enia states that each and every Demigod is the DIRECT offspring that deserves the attention. If you want to add what it means to her specifically or in modernity- it doesn’t change that tiny little word that changes everything. Again, if this was an obscure item or NPC, I could get behind that perhaps it’s an oversight or mistake or needs further additives but it’s one of the most important NPC’s and the first Great Rune we get. The story is there from the beginning- whether we choose to accept it or not is of little consequence. Enia knows more- and is literally Eternal- than anyone else so she would be the single most person to trust and relay on. She doesn’t seem to have an agenda since she says…. “Fuck it, burn the tree down- no one is watching”. She knows the truth and doesn’t really give a shit what we do
@@CenteredTarnished I can't at all subscribe to the idea that Enia or any other NPC is some form of omniscient narrator. FromSoft don't do that. Nobody in their stories have all the pieces, and while I have a penchant of presenting simple things in a complex way, you seem to understand I really just meant her words shouldn't be taken literally and as gospel, yet you still behave as if my idea is more complicated than yours? Of course, complexity doesn't necessarily indicate likelihood, and since these are all merely instances of theorycrafting by the community, pretending like either one of us is more or less correct is funny to begin with. I'm just chafed by people picking and choosing which character they get to pretend has all the answers as opposed to someone else at the detriment of simple explanations. What's happening here is that we source our theories from different disciplines and thus think differently - I don't know how exactly you sourced yours, though it's clearly some realm of psychology or the like, but I, as someone who studies English and thus have to pay attention to both morphology and syntax, find myself particularly passionate about not just understanding what a word means literally but within certain contexts. Words are not meant to be as rigid as you present them in the instance we're arguing over, in my opinion, so I put my thoughts to text. Again, nothing against your theory in general, I just feel like you're going too deep down the rabbit hole. Why are all demigods Marika's kids? Because Marika is also Radagon ergo Marika is actually kinda Ranni's, Radahn's and Rykard's *dad.* Why are empyrians stated to be sired by a single god, as opposed to demigods which technically are also like that? Because the text is meant to evoke very specific assumptions in the player who had probably just recently found out that Marika and Radagon are literally the same person, not because that's actually how it goes. Anyway, none of what I said was to imply any of these are mistakes or oversights. I'm merely saying you're thinking of things, ironically, too directly. There are various real-world circumstances that also make me think your theory is unviable if you really wanna get into that, but that's not really what I'm saying. Ultimately, what I mean to say is that in this one instance, your reasoning is flawed. You pick and choose which things to take literally, which to present as metaphor, you're picking for yourself what is real or imaginary completely arbitrarily based on how convenient it is to your theory, which is admittedly very fun but not likely to actually unveil the real story that we get the crumbs of while Miyazaki hides away the entire rest of the loaf, so to speak.
I really try not to cherry pick my way into a theory so I would be interested to know what made you say that and why you think the theory is unviable. I understand why the demigods are each and all the direct offspring of Marika- that was kinda the point. To provide evidence that Radagon was Marika from the beginning- not 2 individuals who merged. You still have yet to explain why it says Godfrey was the first of the demigods - making him a child of Marika. How are Ranni and the GEQ empyreans- if it’s probably, maybe just as simple as the player recently found out Marika and Radagon are the same person. FromSoft liters their games with the wise-old man archetype- nearly everyone in the Nexus, Firelink Shrine, The RTH. They may have their motives but the information they are giving is true. Why do you think no one has even gotten close to understanding the true narrative of a SoulsBorne game? Because it’s fucking complicated and requires a swan dive into the rabbit hole. I get it, the theory is very deep and complicated but considering the sources who created this game, I can’t imagine it’ll be a simple task. I know this theory isn’t for everyone and if people have their opinions on it, I love to hear them. But the thing that drives me crazy is when their only critique is that I’m going too deep.
@@CenteredTarnished I'm pretty sure I already gave my reason for why Godfrey is a "demigod". Namely, that his status as Elden Lord elevates him from a common mortal, yet nowhere near a "god" like Marika. I usually point out when people go too deep not in and of itself, but because people tend to forget that Miyazaki's modus operandi is to craft a whole story and then remove elements of it entirely to evoke a similar situation as when he was a kid and had to supplement his poor understanding of English with imagination when reading books. In essence, Miyazaki deliberately obscures but also REMOVES parts of the story specifically so that we, the players, can enjoy making as many fun theories as we want. My issue is that people are very stubborn in sticking exclusively to what happens in game for their arguments - even you, who denounced the idea of only viewing item descriptions for proof for having realized this, seem to rely predominantly on taking in-game dialogue very seriously. On the other hand, your idea of NPCs that know the truth doesn't in any way mean that Enia herself must be like that - especially since the ones you reference are infamously unaware of the truth. Most of the Nexus NPCs have no fucking clue what's going on. Ostrava ignored signs in favor of a hope for his father, same goes for Biorr. Both the mages and clerics are deeply rooted in their contradictory beliefs, the clerics believing in the presence of God who will save them, not knowing that the Old One and God are one in the same, while the sorcerers believe in the Souls arts despite history proving they're dangerous and not worth it. Even Freke, who knows all these things, discards facts and decides to revere the Old One in some fashion, be it because of madness or his own folly. The Elemental speaks truth only because he was literally physically present for everything he tells us and has no reason to lie to us; Enia might also have no reason to lie, but we have absolutely no guarantee that she has any sort of authority as she, as a Finger Reader / interpreter of the Two Fingers, is at best a common-ish religious authority that would not be privy to the inner workings of the Golden Order - she, for example, is surprised when the Erdtree denies us entry. Not to mention that you're using differing sources that describe different things and situations. Just because Enia says "all demigods are the direct offspring of Queen Marika" and an item description describes Godfrey as "the first demigod", does not mean they are at all meant to be connected. Words mean different things, especially in a fantasy setting. Similarly, just because it is said that "Empyrians are born of a single god" doesn't have to at all clash with Ranni being an Empyrian, since ultimately the Outer Gods themselves are the ones who get to pick who's gonna be an Empyrian - a candidate for godhood. Searching for wild theories that would make both statements true when taken literally and connected in a way they aren't, when they're not meant to be observed in the same light to begin with. None of the things you connect are adjacent statements A and B that in any way are implied to follow up on each other in meaning or context. In other words, you're taking out the context of many pieces of "evidence" you show, recontextualizing them in a manner I personally believe they're not meant to be considered and presenting them as fact. Here, let me give you an example: Various sources state that Godfrey was the "First Elden Lord", yet others state that Placidusax was "an Elden Lord from before the time of the Erdtree". Considering we know the Crucible Knights served Godfrey despite worshipping an entity older than the Erdtree, meaning Godfrey himself potentially predates the Erdtree, and we find at least two that I recall in Farum Azula, this must actually mean that Godfrey is actually just the human reincarnation of Pacidusax, which is the only way I can think of that we can reconcile the ideas of "Godfrey is FIRST Elden Lord" and "Placidusax was an Elden Lord from a time before Marika's rule". This, of course, blatantly ignores that calling Placidusax "an Elden Lord from before the age of the Erdtree" is meant to imply that Marika herself isn't the first nor only god-like ruler of the Lands Between and that many more world orders existed before her Golden Order.
Great analysis! It's indeed a great piece of media combining mythology, history, psychology, alchemy and mysticism, organised religion and pure fiction as a glue to. There are a ton of different aspects to it also from astronomy to biology and this fusion is unique in this media format for sure. As someone who's been introduced to Jung's work in his teens I also drawn parallels immediately but trying not to make a lovely work of fiction into one square box I know what all the walls are made of so to speak I'd rather see it as a mix of different inspirations to not come to firm conclusions about "truths" and meanings.
There is one thing I don't understand. Are the four Elden Lords, with their specific archetypes, just the embodiment of that women seek in a man? Or does it just concludes the male side inside women? From a strenght, to a hero who can't let go (wants to repair(regression)), to an allknwoing professor, to the balancing partner. If the balancing partner is the ultimate conclusion, does that just mean the partner should be like a soulmate. He can negotiate between conscious and unconscious, meaning he sees if the partner is in trouble without the partner's saying it?
The animus embodies the masculine traits within every female psyche. As Marika matures , every aspect of her psyche does as well- including the animus. You could argue that these ‘internal men’ are probably what she would be interested in in her romantic life . Think of stage 1 as a girl in middle school- very ego driven, trying to fit in and make a name for herself within her social circles. Completely unaware of the shadow she is creating. Stage 4 would be a grandmother type of person- wise, assertive, in touch and accepting of all aspects of herself. Someone who has learned from her mistakes- very powerful and self aware.
@@CenteredTarnished But than I think it is a bit weird that Jung describes this internal development of a woman with men. Maybe because these traits fit to men. But couldn't he just use an explanation which grants a the same solution without connecting it to men traits? Also. Are the rest of all Demi-Gods Marika's inner thoughts and anxieties as well? Because everyone is her offspring? Or does the metaphorical meaning ends there? THX for your first reply btw!!! And, I'm sorry 😓, but could you explain the second and third stage of the animus like you did with the first and fourth one? The unexperienced girl and the woman of wisdom.
@@luisesteves5929 I can't really explain the complexities of Jung's model or why he chose the concepts he did. Probably the easiest way to think about it is that each person (no matter the sex) has both masculine and feminine qualities to them. These traits that follow them are 'primarily' either associated with men or women on a generic level. I believe that the demigods are aspects of Marika's qualities/ traits. These qualities make up her personality or psyche. Usually housed within her but when she fractured the Elden Ring, she experienced something known as psychological dismemberment. Think of this like something is wrong with your car engine - in order to figure out you need to take it apart, find the issue, fix it, and reassemble it. That's what we do in game. The stages Marika would go through would be something like: 1) a young girl growing her ego and trying to fit in -2) a young woman making decisions completely on her own for the first time and not under the supervision of her parents. She is trying to find her way in a professional world and starting a family of her own (but still unaware of her shadow side) - 3) this stage is associated with an inward turn due to some tragedy. At this point the woman is middle aged and the realities of life start to occur. Divorce, job changes, death of a parent plague this stage. In the face of this trauma - the woman is finally confronted with her shadow side. 4) The aftermath is a much stronger, whole woman who understands and accepts all aspects of herself. She has gone through some shit and come out the other side - stronger.
I have just started watching the video. Can you link the interview where Miyazaki says Radagon and Marika have never been two separate bodies and were always a single being? Thanks! See, unless explicitly stated to be the case, I highly doubt that the inherent identical nature of Radagon and Marika directly can be interpreted as a single body and being. Similar to how Darian and Devin is seen to a be two sides of the same coin. 2 bodies, 2 minds yet 1 soul. The said unification of Marika and Radagon occurs in my analysis of the lore close to the shattering event and the D brothers is a particular analogy to their pre-unification states making part of 'Inner Order' gesture. One of the aspects of understanding 'Radagon is Marika' plot twist. The cogitations Goldmask himself was contemplating all the way back in the capital
Hey Ontos! I've watched you lore videos and like them a lot. I think we actually share a lot of the same views - we just take them in different directions. Perhaps we could have a melding of the minds video and see what we can come up with. The interview is from the Book of Knowledge Volume 2. You can find it on reddit. My only observation of your D brothers analogy (which I agree with) is if they share the same soul, are they 2 separate individuals? Again, in a work of fiction 2 sides of the same coin are shown in 2 characters but it is still 1 coin. Let me know your thoughts!
It is also mentioned in the game. When you make a specific move infront of a stature in Leyndell, the stature faints and a text appears saying "Marika is Radagon". That Miyazaki says this are no new news. Look that with the stature up on YT. Not hard to find.
This is mindblowing. Look to the title of the DLC. "The Shadow of the Earthtree" Than think about the Earthtree as the conscious or the ego, as it is mentioned in the video. Look at this picture 7:18. The shadow behind the conscious.
Children are fully egotistical they don't have a shadow yet. They are not bound to any mental blockages yet, but they're still undeveloped. Most children have to be thought to share or how to behave. A small child only focuses on themselves.
It could be that Godfrey is Marika but this is only speculation I always thought of it as how Christians describe God as a trinity, three persons in one being. Radagon and marika are two persons in one being
Well, Radagon is Marika as such the step children arnt not directly decendend from her, or step children to her at all. They are merely step children to Godfrey and step siblings to his decendents.
@CenteredTarnished no idea. Just noticed toward the beginning of the video, it went over how "Radagon is Marika, but then how are radagons children related to Marika." Paraphraseing. On further thought, there is also likely a large amount of misleading terms and lore floating around the general population of the Lands Between, for instance we the player know that Marika was once a mortal Numen, but the people know her as Marika the Eternal. The same may be said for the separation of the Golden Lineage vs Radagons decendents, the people telling us the story don't know Markia and Radagons secret. It may just be that Godfrey is called a Demigod because the people don't see how a mere human could possibly achieve his feats of strength and martial glory. At the same time, I'm sure a lot of these questions will be further illuminated by the forthcoming DLC.
Empyrion all have the ability to give birth being women or in the case of Miquella having the inate power to do so. I also think her first ego death was the death of godwyn but he is the reason for her going cocoo and shattering the elden ring, as at the bottom of leyndell, next to the frenzy flame, we can access godwyn's trone. I think the second ego death necessary for her healing is our burning of the erdtree, so we can help ranni and herself go to the sea like you said, represented by the stars and void, instead of frenzy, death, curse and all the other endings. Miquella will be the god after her leaving. Sike! we all know its Patches 🐵🐍🙃
Dude you’re totally missing the point. All the questions you’re asking that you say don’t make sense are ALL answered by the fact that Marika IS Radagon. She is no less herself just because she is a rebus that shares a body with Radagon. Godfrey is not Marika. Hence why none of his demigod children were Empyrean. Ranni is an Empyrean most likely because Renalla isn’t really her mother. Michela and Malenia are most definitely Empyrean because of the fact that Radagon and Marika conceived them.
Who is Ranni's mother then? I'm not saying it's wrong but your either saying Radagon had some sort of fling with Marika during that time or introducing a brand new, never mentioned God. And is Godfrey Marika's offspring? That's what Enia says along with his Great Rune.
@@CenteredTarnished Godrick the Grafted is a distant relation to Marika. But his father Godfrey is absolutely not Marika. OP implies that maybe he is, and that’s just wrong. As for Ranni. My guess is that Rennala found out about Radagon’s secret at some point. Didn’t care because she loved him so much, and because she’s actually an Albinuric asked Radagon to bear a child for her by using Marika. Honestly I think that all Rennala’s kids are from this process, but only sometimes will you get an empyrean. I think that the more time that went by, the more control Radagon had. The more easily he could use Marika’s body. But that’s a whole other story.
In Enia's case, the definition of 'demigod' she uses refers to the shard-bearers who obtained their Great Runes through their participation in the war known as The Shattering, (which is the aftermath of Marika's shattering of the Elden Ring, but isn't exactly referring to the act itself.) All of them, in one way or another, are Marika's children. She isn't referring to Godfrey in that dialog, because at this point of the story, he's Tarnished. He was the only person to ever become a demigod through marriage, however, that changed when he was exiled as he cannot be both a demigod filled with grace and a Tarnished stripped of grace at the same time. He has more in common with us than he does with his own children who are demigods through blood. In the context of the conversation we have with Enia, she is also talking about the people we have to face in order to obtain enough shards of the Elden Ring to prove we are worthy of entering the holy capital. To note, Godfrey was never gifted a GR like Rennala was nor was he ever tasked with guarding a GR like Malekith was before The Shattering happened. The rest of the Great Runes, like the ones that Morgott and Godrick possess, only came into existence during The Shattering while Godfrey was exiled. It'd be quite impossible for him to be one of the shard-bearers that Enia is talking to us about since he's never had a Great Rune before.
The demigods are all direct offspring of Merika. Godfrey is not a god just a lord. Renalla is not a god. And Ranni, Rykard, and Radahn are her offspring becouse their father Radagon IS Merika.
Godrick's Great Rune: The first demigods were The Elden Lord Godfrey AND his offspring, the golden lineage. - Not sure why people refute this so much.... How is Ranni an empyrean but not her siblings? I never said Renalla is a god, I don't think at least.
@@CenteredTarnished Yeah you’re right about Godfrey my bad. For Ranni I’ve heard a theory that only women can be Empyreans including Miquella because you could consider him half and half. Or perhaps only she is chosen because just like Mohg and Morgott, not all of the children inherited the blessing/curse.
I think that Merika had to take on a partner and that hora loux was the most capable and best suitor out of the people who was not a demigod and didn’t not have any type of demigod powers but was the most suitable out of the people to be a lord to the living embodiment of god. Then when they produced their heirs and one was a go den child who was the embodiment of the the golden order and exactly what merika wanted. then the next set of children were omen twins which merika and the rest of the gold n order could not accept……which sent Godfrey to have to go on the long march and abandon the greater will, the Elden ring, merika, the eld tree, and the lands between, for the quality of the offspring….aside from Goldwyn. At the same time radagon/merika could not defeat the carion royal family also trying to sire valuable children which to varying degrees they succeeded with one being an empyrion and then when Godfrey was expelled merika called back radagon(merika)…then she and the greater will trying to guarantee the birth of empyrions to succeed her
The way I like to think about it is through Alchemy. It's very clear that alchemy is a heavy influence on the game. Every process of the Magnum Opus occurs within the alchemist's flask - going through transformative processes of turning an ordinary stone into the Philosopher's Stone. What the flask is to the alchemist, Marika is to the game. Meaning all the events in the game are happening inside her psyche just like all the events of the Magnum Opus occur in a flask. The pictures associated with those processes are what is playing out in game, but the substance that it is happening to is the primea materia aka Marika. It's a gigantic undertaking by Miyazaki and I think it was done quite remarkably.
@CenteredTarnished wow, that's significantly worse. Okay think I'm going to move and try to forget I heard this. If M really did go that far in the story then its one I have no interest in following further.
@@specialnewb9821 but why?? It is not like just Elden Ring did this. This is a thing most likely any souls game has included by Fromsoftware. Especially noticeable in Bloodborne.
Sources on Animus Development in the description. Thank you for watching! If you enjoy this view on the lore, please consider leaving a like and subscribing😀
There’s something sublime about the idea that we’re endeavoring to embody the animus of Marina by back-engineering the lost history of the land.
It's not just an idea. It's the truth. It's crazy how surreal this game is once you see it for what it truly means.
@@WunstarSymbiosis It reminds me of Twin Peaks: The Return when the quack psychologist ends up shilling himself out to a non-specific, radical side of America that’s too paranoid to listen to anything other than pirate-radio. What’s he shilling?.. A shiny, gold shovel that, just by buying it for $49.99, will magically transform into an arcane talisman that will , “…shovel your way out of the shit!…” and the only people desperate enough to buy a shovel are the only ones that find the metaphysical significance of their own lives, (a la ‘meaning’).
*Goldmask would be my choice-analog for the psychologist-quack.
The fact that Radagon is so good at "mimicking" others makes me think he is a mimic tear, and he emulates the women with whom he is involved to try to feel complete...meaningful...to feel "Kenough".
If anything marika would be the mimic tear and radagon would be Amber. Both of them would be silver and gold, with radagon absolutely being the golden half. There’s actually some theory’s if you make certain assumptions that the nox at some point managed to successfully create a perfect being as they were trying to do so and that was marika. It is possible the numen are silver as their flesh melds harmoniously just like silver tears.
I started playing this game not too long ago. As of now I’m more than halfway there to finishing, in that time I’ve devoured lore videos and this video right here is the closest I’ve Ever come to understanding anything.
You've got a great handle on this theme of consciousness and psychology, but I fear you've taken this one theme so far that it's pushing out the rest of the complexities within the story and world.
Let's start by addressing the idea that we as the player are "the action to Marika's thoughts," and so were the other Elden Lords. Truth is, we are given full agency over which fate befits the Lands. To simply act out Marika's thoughts would involve nullifying our choice in some way. There are games where you are given the illusion of choice, but that's clearly not what's going on in Elden Ring given the stark differences in the fate of the world for each ending.
"In Marika's own words. Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices..."
"There is something I'd like to say. My purpose was given to me by my mother. But now, I act of my own volition.
I have set my heart upon the world that I would have. Regardless of my mother's designs.
I won't allow anyone to speak ill of that. Not even you."
I can definitely see why the animus theory is enticing as an answer to how Radagon is Marika, and I think that general concept can hold without removing Radagon's agency and individuality to such a great degree. Instead of painting him as this psychological concept, we can see him as another person grown from the Erdtree (see TA's "The evidence for people growing on trees in Elden Ring"). But unlike most, he contains a large part of Marika herself. There's precedent for that in the Lands because gods are represented as symbols housed within a vassal, and we also see the ability to take one's consciousness out and transplant it to a new vessel with Sellen's primal glintstone. Remember that Radagon's emergence would most likely be right around the Night of the Black Knives when Marika begins experiencing serious internal conflict about the Golden Order's fate and validity. So she is placing in Radagon the part of her will that is intent to correct the flaws in the Golden Order.
Meanwhile the other half of herself is free to confront the possibility that she must give up on her grand design and allow a new order to reign. She can formulate another plan. Radagon goes off and learns about the world and comes back with Inner Order. Marika sees promise in the idea and calls him back to explore it further through empyrean twins (empyrean meaning "source of light," the light at the end of the tunnel or ascent to heaven). At this point, Radagon helps guide their growth and he rejoins with Marika (with all of the symbolism of an alchemical rebis, their magnum opus). It's only after Malenia fails to overcome her rot and Miquella is kidnapped before he could form a true successor to the Erdtree that Marika realizes the Outer Order and Totality they strove towards won't be achieved. It's a moment of ultimate crisis in which Radagon is weakest that her doubtful half follows through on plan B.
"In Marika's own words. O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us be shattered, both. Mine other self."
That explains Radagon, but we still need to solidify what the role of Elden Lord is supposed to be. He's a special case, but what Radagon has in common with Godfrey and ourselves, the tarnished guided by grace, is that we each bring to bear our own ideals shaped by the culture and values of the Lands towards a reshaping of the Elden Ring. It draws heavy parallels to the concept of a mother and father who are both needed to raise a family. But in this case, the family is the whole realm and the parents are trying to evolve with the changing times. In Godfrey's time, strength and warfare were needed until all threats were defeated. In Radagon's time as lord, scholarship was needed to explore all options...until the only option was to give up. We prove ourselves able to overcome a shattered world and can then pick up the pieces.
Thanks for the watch and critique. A few items of rebuttal.
This is only part 3 of what will probably end up being 10 parts that explain the depths and complexities of the story in regards to psychology. In other words, you are seeing a tiny portion of a basketball and calling it flat without seeing the whole picture. I believe our choice of endings simply shows the choices one has when confronted with a crisis. Like I explained in the video, one can turn to chaos, nihilism, double down, etc. It doesn't nullify it all but instead shows the complexities of going through the process of individuation and how it can turn out. Just like Oscar, Berhnal, Vyke, they all had choices as to what to do in the face of a crisis.- I also think a choice of endings is accounted to the replayability of the game but that's me wearing the corporate hat.
"In Marika's own words. Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices..."
"There is something I'd like to say. My purpose was given to me by my mother. But now, I act of my own volition.
I have set my heart upon the world that I would have. Regardless of my mother's designs.
I won't allow anyone to speak ill of that. Not even you. "
I'm not 100% sure what you are trying to imply here? Can you help me out?
I agree that everyone is born of the Erdtree - like TA so aptly says- I am just saying its a metaphor for the psyche is all. You say that Radagon is a unique case compared to the other EL's "So she is placing in Radagon the part of her will that is intent to correct the flaws in the Golden Order.
" but honestly I think you are making my point for me. She did the same with Godfrey but her will was to destroy all opposition and clear the way for the erdtree....... then gold left his eyes and he was hounded from the LB. If that isn't the action to someone's thoughts (brainwashed) im not sure what is. That seems to be what the guidance of grace is, Marika pointing us in a direction and we act out her will.
To think Radagon has explored enough to have a "finished" Order is false. It's not until we defeat Radahn and crack open the depths that we truly understand the world as a whole. This is what is happening inside of Marika. With Radagon, she tried to do this without searching the depths of her psyche i.e. eternal cities - and this is why they failed. You can't paint a picture with just a brush - you need the paint as well.
Every EL is a deeper dive, a step in maturity.
My last point is a question. Do you think the story is the same without Godfrey? Like if Radagon was the only Elden Lord and he defeated all of Marika's foes, (Fire Giants, stormlord) did his Golden Order thing, etc.
To me, the only reason to put Godfrey in the game, give him a body we all are jealous of, have him only care about "Strength", have grace leave his eyes and leave the LB is because he is the first stage. You replace Radagon with Godfrey and the story doesn't change.......
@@CenteredTarnished Overall getting mixed messages from your argument because you're saying the psychological aspect is a metaphor (agree) and then suggesting it dictates literally everything that happens in the story (disagree). Unless that changes in subsequent parts, I don't see how they could make the case stronger.
Using metaphorical tropes in your story is fine to some extent, but it can't be the whole thing. At least if you want to do more than slap a new paint job over an existing fable. Miyazaki uses a lot of different inspiration and so far has been very meticulous in always twisting the original concept into something different. A prime example is the world tree. We see the Erdtree and Yggdrasil comes immediately to mind, only to learn that it's actually a burnt husk wearing a phantom skin only we can see, and that it used to literally absorb the dead to grow new life in its branches.
The connections to Jungian psychology will need to be handled similarly, especially considering that if that Erdtree and everything else was merely a figment of Marika's thoughts, then it lessens the importance and grandeur of those discoveries. A world purely of the mind no longer has any rules beyond the basic tenets Jung laid out. Literally anything can happen because it's all a dream. We need even the most fantastical worlds to have hard rules so that the characters in them don't become omniscient, capable of inventing solutions to any conflict from thin air.
My point leading up to Melina's quotes is that we see many instances where main characters are free to choose of their own free will, going against the idea that they and the player character are just following through on Marika's thoughts. Those quotes are supporting evidence where Marika is telling the demigods to choose for themselves and Melina is specifically going against Marika's will.
@@NickCombs I'm not sure what you are wanting. If you are expecting me to perfectly sum up both metaphorically and empirically (which doesn't exist in fantasy i.e. can you sum up the laws of the Marvel Universe that govern it? or can you explain the empirical rules of Bloodborne.... which is actually a dream..... and a work of Miyazaki's) that's never going to happen.
In the video, I make it clear that Jung spent a lifetime looking at ALL of these mythical stories across time and noticed similarities in them all. He made the conclusion that each of these stories are metaphors of the human psychological experience i.e. the collective unconscious. Again, I don't think you realize you are making my point for me. Jung broke down these stories into their Prime Mater and attached their meanings to different aspects of the human psyche.
Also, the Erdtree isn't Marika's brought into existence due to Marika thinking it and thus anything can be thought of and the world dives into chaos. They are symbols of aspects of her psyche. Growing as she grows, shattering as she shatters, transforming as she transforms, etc.
As far as the quotes, to paraphrase Jung on not going through the individuation process: "What is the harm in not distinguishing oneself? One falls into indistinctiveness.... into the dissolution of nothingness. This is the death of the creature." This is what Marika is stating to her "children". It's not like I have the exact same qualities today that I did 15 years ago. My life and situation has changed and the aspects of myself that don't grow and evolve along with me - I sacrifice.
Melina doesn't have a "mother" as implied by Boc's questline. She is the Self of Marika and her saying that quote is evidence that she is transforming and doesn't care what anyone thinks - she knows what she needs to do.
To be honest, this theory isn't for everyone. I believe it is the story and the most comprehensive theory we have so far. If you don't like it, that's cool but I'm not going to stop because you don't understand it. There's hundreds of hours of videos about how Farum Azula is floating in the sky because it got hit by a meteor and is just chilling. I believe it's a metaphor for the human psyche.
I'd love to have you on a livestream and ask as many questions as you like. I can't provide evidence for my theory in this medium.
@@CenteredTarnished I don't think I have any request here. It's just my interpretation of the story and how I view the psychological themes as a reaction to your theory so far. It seems like we agree on many things and it's only the nuance of how much influence those themes have over the rest of the story where we seem to be at odds. Perhaps it boils down to my preference for more tangible explanations. I certainly would not want you to change your mind based on my response if your interpretation improves your experience of the game's lore.
You're right that it's very hard to fully define all aspects of a fictional world as complex as Elden Ring. I think I could do a decent job given enough time, and it's been done by others. But it's a herculean task. I find I often need time to internalize and collect my thoughts before responding, so I'm not generally an avid streamgoer. I will look out for your stream though. Definitely true that putting thoughts to writing also comes with its own challenges, especially in comments where we don't have images, links, etc. Anyway, thanks for the valuable discussion!
@@NickCombs Honestly, one of the hardest parts of putting this theory out there is how to disseminate the information. I wouldn't say depth psychology is part of the general knowledge so trying to explain the concept itself then tying it to the game because this game not only goes a mile deep but also a mile wide to the theory has to as well. I'm trying to go a mile deep on each subject but it puts blinders on the rest of the theory as trying to do it all at once is incredibly complicated.
I have spent a year reading a myriad of text from Jung and I honestly do think it tells at least the main plot of the game - hopefully I can do it justice and tell the story in an impactful, comprehensive way.
I hope you stick around for the next parts and hop into a stream or 2!
'Radagon is not special in any way' isnt necessarily the intended inference. Quite the opposite in fact. Radagon is the missing special 'half' of Marika. See, you have to bring in the alchemical lore. Mercury (Marika) and Sulphur (Radagon) create the Philosopher's stone (Miquella) which creates the substance that can turn a thing into gold. In elden ring terms 'unalloyed gold'. You can watch my video on it as I go deeper into it :)
Believe me, I understand the alchemical aspects of this concept. Reading the Anatomy of the Psyche: The Alchemical Symbolism in Psychotherapy, The Mysterium Lectures and the Mysterium Coinctionus all are about the psychological meaning behind the Magnum Opus.
My meaning behind Radagon not being special, only refers with respect to the other Elden Lords. Meaning the other Elden Lords also shared a body due to them also being Marika's Animus at that stage of development.
I too agree that Miquella represents the Philosopher's Stone aka Marika 2.0 but it's clear that this process is not quite done yet - as evidenced by Mohg. Radagon didn't have all the information which is why we (stage 3) have to search the depths of the world to gather said information and reset the process one last time. Each time this process occurs, Miquella grows. Radagon being the Red King is spot on but we are the next version of the Red King - a more developed version, fit to bring the Philosopher's Stone closer to perfection.
If it is Miquella in the DLC picture, this shows that without us his story and development stops. If Radagon was the true final version of her Animus and Red King - Miquella would have been perfect - there would be no need for us.
Just as the Memory of Grace states: It's merely a cycle. Stand before the Elden Ring - become the Elden Lord. So to is the Alchemical magnum opus. It takes many cycles of burning and condensing before the Stone is complete.
Oh yeah! I absolutely agree. In fact, the DLC will probably see us helping Miquella in some way to get to the final stage of maturity. Cant wait to see where Fromsoft is going to take it!@@CenteredTarnished
Great videos. I would love to see you and the tarnished archeologist do a collaboration.
Thinking about it in these terms makes the epic parts of the trailers and story feel even more epic. Like "The Fountain" vibes.
Miyazaki made a bet with his buddy that he could make people go so deep and philosophical over a game that he would cause world peace as a side effect because everyone is to busy thinking about his game lol
He failed looking at recent wars lol but maybe they dont play enough Elden Ring 🤔
Methinks you are onto something with this incredible channel - Miyazaki must be a Jungian deep in his elden, dark, soul
All I'm currently thinking about is how the "impaler's catacombs" is somewhat close to the 4th church and he's red, covered in the unsavoury visions for the erdtree.
Biggest take away was how the map is un the shape of a fetus
Mind blown
I've watched a lot of from software lore videos. Lately, it has been a lot of elden ring videos. This is right up there. Great job man
I have thought for a while that Miquella will take on Melina's role as a guide we can talk to at Sites of Grace inside the DLC areas, that would fit well with this theory!
Interesting seeing other people’s interpretations of the story, dope work dawg
Much appreciated
This is great! I’ve been interpreting a lot of the game along Jungian/alchemical lines. I’m not sure if I agree with the idea that everyone is Marika but I’m kind of stunned that I hadn’t even thought of it until now. It does resolve a great deal of what hasn’t made sense. Thanks for this!
It's not just in Marika's mind but the Tarnished (Us) as well. We're the new vessal from the beginning. Go to Maliketh, The Black Blade Site of Grace after arriving at Leyndell, Ashen Capital. Stand where you are facing away from the Elden Ring and the Marika/Wolves statue but in front of the grace where the grace is lined up between your legs and the grace is also touching the candles. Center your camera and use the Erudition gesture. Take a screenshot and flip it upside down to reveal the current Elden Ring and its vassal, Us the Tarnished. Also The Elden Beast may be an Astrological Age, specifically the Age of Pisces from the Cetus-Pisces Cluster (Whale-Serpent/Duo Fish, Elden Beast/Radagon Marika) in the Laniakea Supercluster (Elden Beast' central nervous and circulatory system) coming to its end through the original outer God, The Primordial Formless Mother which used The Primeval Current/The Greater Will (Space/Time) to accomplish this.
I'm sure Miazaki thought exactly of the player standing there using a specific gesture and looking at the screen upside down when he designed that wall relief
Him and the whole FromSoft team did. One other thing I'll mention is if you take that picture not only does it become The Elden Ring from the cover, it also matches up with what would be your players central nervous system because all of ours look similar to tree roots by design similar to the Elden Ring. As a matter of fact they line up perfectly. Go check it out for yourself and then you can criticize me all you want, as long as it's constructive criticism then It all for it.
@@WunstarSymbiosis you have intrigued me. If only I could reproduce what you are talking about. When someone catches a glimpse of hidden wisdom they appear to be out of touch with the others. I know from personal experience. However, we often are simply out of touch. But true wisdom always appears (at the outset) as indistinguishable from madness. You sir are teetering on the very brink. Are you on the brink of madness or revelation?
I would add Miyazaki has always been big on hiding the formless mother motif (Euronyme & Nyx/Nox in the primordial Greek pantheon). I need to get this screenshot and see if you’re onto something.
Typical elden ring enjoyer ☕
I didn't write the elden ring, so it is not my place to say what is what. I definitely love your take on it!
This was an amazing video! I've just finished it. I was writing separate comments to increase activity and help your channel's algorithm :P Maybe not perfectly aligned with some of the things in my analysis but your commentary and Jungian explorations are fascinating. As a student of psychology, I really liked it. I havent yet done a video on the Jungian aspects of Elden ring just as I havent also done to its alchemical side. Both of them deserve a single long episode to explain its subtleties. I've also realized, that your videos actually have very similar vibes to my style as you dont simply regurgitate text but allow its lore to take a new meaning within a fresh context. I'll rewatch this video and add my commentary to some of the explorations you've made. I'm currently on the brink of completing my tarnished video. It will be THE most complex video I've ever made so I hope you look forward to it. As I look forward to seeing more videos from you!
Much appreciated! I subbed to your channel and very much look forward to seeing you grow. I too am sick of the 4 hour videos just relaying the in game text- it clearly hasn’t gotten us any further into understanding the world. Let me know if you want to collaborate on the psych video or alchemy video!
I’ll add comments and watches to your vids as well:)
Much love
Haha I was thinking the same thing keep it up, these are my favorite videos right now by both of you!
Thanks Bob. Glad you enjoy@@BobVance84
First, I'd just like to say this was a great video - you put a lot of effort into the research, and I think you're doing a good job of summarizing Jung's theories to those who may be unfamiliar. On God I smashed that like and subscribe.
In my opinion there is a very Jungian trap of flattening complex or mystical experience into a pure psychological framing. Jung did this with alchemy and the works of the alchemists - while bringing them into intellectual vogue in a post enlightenment era, he also stripped them of their true potency or spiritual significance. I think you're falling into this trap as well, and flattening some of the depth of Elden Ring.
Elden Ring is a complex game, and while I think that Jungian analysis and a psychological framing does do a lot to illuminate in regards to Marika's history specifically, I would be careful of trying to extend it to literal interpretation of all of the events that transpired or the whole lands between. For a concrete example of where this breaks down, I don't think your theory of Godfrey / Radagon / the Tarnished being literal stages of animus development holds a lot of water. The Tarnished is certainly not the Professor (another term for this stage is "Man of Words" - how much does the tarnished speak? How much authority does the tarnished hold in the lands between?), and while I think it's certainly interesting to consider that perhaps Godfrey and Radagon could be nods to the stages of a developing animus, I would not present this as clear fact or the whole of their significance, because it isn't.
I'm sure that it's tempting to say that you've "solved" or figured out what Elden Ring is about, particularly when putting together a video essay for youtube. I hope in future videos, which I honestly do look forward to watching, you resist the temptation to be so definitive, and provide more room for the possibility of allegory or different interpretations. I believe that is much more true to Miyazaki's intentions when he makes these games.
Thanks for the comment.
I certainly don't think Jungian psychology applies to every single event in the game - I know Miyazaki uses an untold amount of inspiration and cross pollinates them to a point where you may never find the true source. I do however think the teachings of Jung are a major source for the main plot of the game as further evidenced by the DLC title. And, to be honest, I do this as a hobby and still have a very busy schedule so I simply don't have the time or resources to dive into every single possibility of inspiration. Jung has gotten me the furthest into understanding the Night of the Black Knives all the way to the DLC and more so I will continue pulling on this thread until it doesn't make sense.
I do disagree about the stages of Animus development and that you don't see the connection to us being a professor of the world. First off, it's a FromSoft game so we will never say much as the PC. We do however uncover all the secrets and learn more about the world and history than anyone else in the LB. If that's not a scholar of the world, I don't know what would be. Now, that's not unique to games that the PC is this type of character who learns about the world then decides what is best moving forward once they ultimately make it to the top. What makes it unique is the Elden Lords that come before us. If you choose to accept that Godfrey and Radagon fit the description of the first 2 stages of Animus development, it must follow that we are the 3rd. I'm not sure you can have it both ways where you believe 2 out of the 3 but not the third.
There is way to much evidence for human psychology and development for it not to be the biggest source of inspiration. That being said, I am very open to other ideas and don't want it to come off definitive but honestly I haven't come across something that ties the events in game as well as this. A lot of the "criticism" I get all sound very much like your comment where they agree but that Jung isn't the end all be all (which I agree) but provide no alternatives. So, until I hear an alternative that explains why theirs brain images on the map, why the map is a fetus in a womb, why the Night of the Black Knives mirrors exactly with The Dark Night of the Soul, the fact that the Ego is going through solutio, the contents of the collective unconscious, the terms of shadow and what they are in game, Melina as the Self and the vessel for all the aspects of the psyche, The process of Individuation, Outer Gods vs our inner God, the fact that we are going into the Shadow realm in the DLC, the list goes on and on and on - and they all come from one source ; Jung. That doesn't mean that smaller side quests have nothing to do with Jung and honestly, I don't care. You can skip every single side quest and it still complete the game and it would still point towards human psychology.
This channel is all about how human psychology can be applied to answer some of the biggest questions in the game - right or wrong. I think it gives a deeper understanding to those willing to listen. Just as the Tarnished Archeologist is very narrow in his videos, I am in mine. I will leave it up to the community to put together various pieces and make the story "whole" for themselves. But my channel won't change.
@@CenteredTarnished Totally, and I certainly wouldn't expect you to dive into every possible point of inspiration. I understand that you're approaching your channel and videos from a specific perspective, and I think that's cool. Miyazaki majored in social science, so I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that he draws from a deep well there when crafting his games. I'm glad that someone is exploring this more seriously. I guess I'm just suggesting in your videos more language of "this is what I see" versus "this is what it is". I think that would be more honest.
RE Animus development - even in Jung's work, the stages are not as clean as you present them. A woman will encounter her animus in different "stages" or forms depending on where she is in her relationship with masculine principles in herself and in the external world. It's not linear in experience, though there is a hierarchy in regards to advancement towards the goal of integration. So keep that in mind. I also don't think that Godfrey or Radagon fit cleanly into the stages as you've presented them. Godfrey is not just a war chief, but a loving father, as we see in his scene with Margit. Same with Radagon - he is more than just a man of action, but also of intellect and compassion. So like I said in my first comment, while I think it's interesting to consider that Miyazaki might have applied some Jungian theory when writing Marika's two lovers, I think trying to say literally that they "are" her developing animus does the characters (and writing) a disservice.
I don't want to get too into rebuttals here, but I'll just mention that the tarnished is more defined by their lack of knowledge than the knowledge they possess. Even by the end of the game, many (most) players will have killed the elden beast with absolutely no understanding of what the hell just happened. I don't know why you are saying that we uncover all of the secrets? Nokron? We can kill Radahn, opening the path for Ranni to walk, but we don't discover it. She (and Seluvis, Blaidd, Ijji, Sellen) already know way more about it. Even becoming Elden Lord, every ending is essentially enacting the order (a greater authority than us) that was vying for power long before we arrived. We're never installing our own order. I think my man Margit does more to explain our character than anyone else in the game: "Tarnished... thou art but a fool."
I don't want you to change your channel, like I said, I like the angle. I just think you seem to use a very definitive language, and are also taking what is perhaps a seed of inspiration (Jung) and stretching it over the whole game. You bring up the tarnished archeologist, so just to contrast - their channel takes like a piece of architecture or a sculpture, and talks about what it could be in reference to in the real world, and the implications on that specific civilization in the lands between. I don't think they have a single video on what the games story as a whole is about. I think it's great to bring psychology into the "discourse" around Elden Ring, so I'm on your side there man, I would just encourage you to be careful to not cast too wide a net when discussing this game in particular, as you may have done with this video. All the best to you moving forward though, truly.
@@K33ntanWhile I get what you're saying, psychology is the study of the human mind. Everything we do is dictated by it, even the words we type or the symbols we use to create something or represent something. So, looking at the story from a psychological perspective is a great idea. I'm sure we agree on that.
I would also say that conscious or not, we can manifest aspects of the collective unconscious in our words, deeds and creations, even without consciously meaning to do so. It's in the name, unconscious.
Also, as it has been stated, the focus has to be more narrow to be able to be coherent. This even applies with the game. Even with all the cultures being represented it still has to be a more narrow focus, otherwise the game would have never released.
So, I think that instead of the developers making the characters or Godfrey and Radagon more complex and more realistic, the choice to make them simpler and more well defined had to be done for the sake of simplicity.
They honestly could and may well represent more nuanced and messy therefore more realistic characters, yet still, focusing on them as more cookie cutter makes the stages easier to dissect and more understandable.
Sure that leaves out nuance, yet again, it's harder to put all that into a more concise format like a video.
Just so you know, I'm not saying this as an attack or to be offensive, just to say that it makes sense, the direction that Centered here is taking and that it's not necessarily a bad thing.
Just my two cents.
If Radagon is Marika i.e. the same person then it makes sense that Rykard, Ranni, & Radahn are biologically Marika's children as well. They were likely called "stepchildren" to keep the Secret of Radagon & Marika hidden.
The only thing I would ask is why is Ranni an empyrean and not her siblings?
For the same reason Morgott and Mohg are Omens but Godwyn isn't? I have yet to see clear cut evidence that rules out chance as a factor. If the goal was creating more empyreans, and it was based on the chance of the children retaining marika's nature as one, then radagon's union still makes sense as the sure fire way to produce empyrean offspring, though with the results of incest, but not necessarily the only way, hence ranni being one as well, though one out of three attempts
@@marcogianesello6083 Then what about the Gloam Eyed Queen?
You're right, you can't prove a negative and there's never going to be clear cut evidence of probably anything - that's how FromSoft does it. We only know that empyreans are born of a single god. Whether that's the ONLY factor may never be understood. Twins are a statistical probability in every pregnancy. I would think becoming a God would have more to it than that. But who knows.
@@CenteredTarnished It looks like only the female children can become Empyreans. Miquella is the exception because they also share a lot of feminine traits, such as their possible alter ego of "St. Trina".
@@CenteredTarnished malenia and miquella are empyreans beacuse they were chosen by there two fingers, ranni says so during her questline
Up to this point, I was interested in Yung's works, but I couldn't get myself to actually research it. For instance, Persona 5 was cool and all, but in terms of psychology, it explores many schools of thought and fields of study, not just Jung. But here, this video has been so informative that I think you convinced me that this is an opportunity too intriguing to pass up. So, thanks for getting me to add Jung to my reading list, I hope this will add to my perspective in ways I could never imagine.
It's funny, the empyreans are all children of radagan
That is why he is Chadagon.
To me it must’ve been the key figures in her lifetime: Her father figure Godfrey , Radagon her brother older brother figure in the real world then us the actual pc who she finds a therapist relationship with or ends up putting her on the right road. Depending upon the ending we choose.
I think it's a bit weird that, with the exception of maybe one or two examples, Marika produces twins across all of her couplings-but Radagon doesn't. I feel like that's significant somehow. Even with Godfrey, Marika produced twins-Morgott and Mohg. The two possible exceptions are Godwyn and Melina, neither of whom are known to have twins.
The problem with Messmer being Godwyn's twin is that Messmer seems to be related to Radagon, whereas Godwyn is the son of Godfrey. So I'm not sure; maybe Godwyn was an instance where the union of Marika and Godfrey was able to produce a single child whose nature was not divided into a set of twins.
Because Melina seems to be a more even blend of Marika and Radagon (which I feel her pink hair is meant to signify), it could be that she also doesn't have a twin, but like Godwyn was the result of a successful coupling.
What's the music used in the beginning? (Or the whole video)
At the start, I think the "demigod question" is looked into too deeply - for example, while item lore reveals Godfrey was a "demigod", it's easy to explain that AS ELDEN LORD, one is more than mere mortal, but certainly less than a "god" such as Marika (though the term is laughable to me when she is herself just a mortal EMPOWERED by an Outer God; the Greater Will). This, however, is clearly an exception to the statement of "all demigods are the children of Queen Marika" since the culture of what it means to be a demigod is significantly different from the context of calling Godfrey one; in the common context, "a demigod" is by definition "a child of Marika" (even if by "adoption") because she, as a "god" would naturally produce demigods when doing the dirty with a mortal. One could, in a sense, call ALL those in the Lands Between pre-Shattering demigods, depending on your perspective - would not someone from outside the Lands Between, yet who still worships the Greater Will, view the immortal, undying and powerful denizens of that land as anything but divine, even if only a little? To get back to the topic at hand, the implication that is not outright stated, but is inferred, is that Godfrey is a very different kind of demigod - because, like I said, the word "demigod" in modern times is synonymous with being a child of Marika. Thus, "all demigods (half god-half mortal) are the direct offspring of Marika (THE god)" as opposed to "Godfrey was the first demigod" in the sense of being elevated to a higher existence by his union with Marika, but still not being quite a god himself -ergo, demigod in the more literal sense, as in "only partly a god"
TL;DR basically the context of what "demigod" means is different though the word used is the same
Similarly, that "Empyrians are born of a single god" carries the implication of "as opposed to a god an a mortal" while those more in the know would also connect the dots with the idea that Marika and Radagon are literally the same person and thus "born of a single god" may imply "born of a union of a god with itself", though that brings into question how often this is supposed to happen considering Marika herself was also an empyrian - also the fact that it's blatantly false considering Ranni is also an empyrian, but this may very well loop back to the idea I already posited - these aren't so much "literal facts" as "facts as someone in the modern cultural and social context of the Lands Between may understand them". Think how Omen are said to be cursed while we as players may piece together that it's not a curse at all but a blessing from the Crucible; though it's not like a follower of the Golden Order would even see the difference.
Of course, that all this occurs in Marika's psyche is a very valid idea - since I also hold belief that the various "Outer" Gods are also merely manifestations of concepts inherent to the world and thus a part of a greater whole, I can't rightly disprove such a theory as they are quite similar and in fact compatible with each other.
Haha I’m not disagreeing with you but if anyone is looking to much into what Enia says, i think it might be you my man. If anything, I am trying to make it as simple as possible without adding any unnecessary items to the equation. It’s the simple fact that our “wise old lady”, Enia states that each and every Demigod is the DIRECT offspring that deserves the attention. If you want to add what it means to her specifically or in modernity- it doesn’t change that tiny little word that changes everything. Again, if this was an obscure item or NPC, I could get behind that perhaps it’s an oversight or mistake or needs further additives but it’s one of the most important NPC’s and the first Great Rune we get. The story is there from the beginning- whether we choose to accept it or not is of little consequence. Enia knows more- and is literally Eternal- than anyone else so she would be the single most person to trust and relay on. She doesn’t seem to have an agenda since she says…. “Fuck it, burn the tree down- no one is watching”. She knows the truth and doesn’t really give a shit what we do
@@CenteredTarnished I can't at all subscribe to the idea that Enia or any other NPC is some form of omniscient narrator. FromSoft don't do that. Nobody in their stories have all the pieces, and while I have a penchant of presenting simple things in a complex way, you seem to understand I really just meant her words shouldn't be taken literally and as gospel, yet you still behave as if my idea is more complicated than yours? Of course, complexity doesn't necessarily indicate likelihood, and since these are all merely instances of theorycrafting by the community, pretending like either one of us is more or less correct is funny to begin with. I'm just chafed by people picking and choosing which character they get to pretend has all the answers as opposed to someone else at the detriment of simple explanations. What's happening here is that we source our theories from different disciplines and thus think differently - I don't know how exactly you sourced yours, though it's clearly some realm of psychology or the like, but I, as someone who studies English and thus have to pay attention to both morphology and syntax, find myself particularly passionate about not just understanding what a word means literally but within certain contexts. Words are not meant to be as rigid as you present them in the instance we're arguing over, in my opinion, so I put my thoughts to text. Again, nothing against your theory in general, I just feel like you're going too deep down the rabbit hole. Why are all demigods Marika's kids? Because Marika is also Radagon ergo Marika is actually kinda Ranni's, Radahn's and Rykard's *dad.* Why are empyrians stated to be sired by a single god, as opposed to demigods which technically are also like that? Because the text is meant to evoke very specific assumptions in the player who had probably just recently found out that Marika and Radagon are literally the same person, not because that's actually how it goes. Anyway, none of what I said was to imply any of these are mistakes or oversights. I'm merely saying you're thinking of things, ironically, too directly. There are various real-world circumstances that also make me think your theory is unviable if you really wanna get into that, but that's not really what I'm saying. Ultimately, what I mean to say is that in this one instance, your reasoning is flawed. You pick and choose which things to take literally, which to present as metaphor, you're picking for yourself what is real or imaginary completely arbitrarily based on how convenient it is to your theory, which is admittedly very fun but not likely to actually unveil the real story that we get the crumbs of while Miyazaki hides away the entire rest of the loaf, so to speak.
I really try not to cherry pick my way into a theory so I would be interested to know what made you say that and why you think the theory is unviable.
I understand why the demigods are each and all the direct offspring of Marika- that was kinda the point. To provide evidence that Radagon was Marika from the beginning- not 2 individuals who merged.
You still have yet to explain why it says Godfrey was the first of the demigods - making him a child of Marika. How are Ranni and the GEQ empyreans- if it’s probably, maybe just as simple as the player recently found out Marika and Radagon are the same person.
FromSoft liters their games with the wise-old man archetype- nearly everyone in the Nexus, Firelink Shrine, The RTH. They may have their motives but the information they are giving is true.
Why do you think no one has even gotten close to understanding the true narrative of a SoulsBorne game? Because it’s fucking complicated and requires a swan dive into the rabbit hole. I get it, the theory is very deep and complicated but considering the sources who created this game, I can’t imagine it’ll be a simple task. I know this theory isn’t for everyone and if people have their opinions on it, I love to hear them. But the thing that drives me crazy is when their only critique is that I’m going too deep.
@@CenteredTarnished I'm pretty sure I already gave my reason for why Godfrey is a "demigod". Namely, that his status as Elden Lord elevates him from a common mortal, yet nowhere near a "god" like Marika. I usually point out when people go too deep not in and of itself, but because people tend to forget that Miyazaki's modus operandi is to craft a whole story and then remove elements of it entirely to evoke a similar situation as when he was a kid and had to supplement his poor understanding of English with imagination when reading books. In essence, Miyazaki deliberately obscures but also REMOVES parts of the story specifically so that we, the players, can enjoy making as many fun theories as we want. My issue is that people are very stubborn in sticking exclusively to what happens in game for their arguments - even you, who denounced the idea of only viewing item descriptions for proof for having realized this, seem to rely predominantly on taking in-game dialogue very seriously. On the other hand, your idea of NPCs that know the truth doesn't in any way mean that Enia herself must be like that - especially since the ones you reference are infamously unaware of the truth. Most of the Nexus NPCs have no fucking clue what's going on. Ostrava ignored signs in favor of a hope for his father, same goes for Biorr. Both the mages and clerics are deeply rooted in their contradictory beliefs, the clerics believing in the presence of God who will save them, not knowing that the Old One and God are one in the same, while the sorcerers believe in the Souls arts despite history proving they're dangerous and not worth it. Even Freke, who knows all these things, discards facts and decides to revere the Old One in some fashion, be it because of madness or his own folly. The Elemental speaks truth only because he was literally physically present for everything he tells us and has no reason to lie to us; Enia might also have no reason to lie, but we have absolutely no guarantee that she has any sort of authority as she, as a Finger Reader / interpreter of the Two Fingers, is at best a common-ish religious authority that would not be privy to the inner workings of the Golden Order - she, for example, is surprised when the Erdtree denies us entry. Not to mention that you're using differing sources that describe different things and situations. Just because Enia says "all demigods are the direct offspring of Queen Marika" and an item description describes Godfrey as "the first demigod", does not mean they are at all meant to be connected. Words mean different things, especially in a fantasy setting. Similarly, just because it is said that "Empyrians are born of a single god" doesn't have to at all clash with Ranni being an Empyrian, since ultimately the Outer Gods themselves are the ones who get to pick who's gonna be an Empyrian - a candidate for godhood. Searching for wild theories that would make both statements true when taken literally and connected in a way they aren't, when they're not meant to be observed in the same light to begin with. None of the things you connect are adjacent statements A and B that in any way are implied to follow up on each other in meaning or context. In other words, you're taking out the context of many pieces of "evidence" you show, recontextualizing them in a manner I personally believe they're not meant to be considered and presenting them as fact. Here, let me give you an example:
Various sources state that Godfrey was the "First Elden Lord", yet others state that Placidusax was "an Elden Lord from before the time of the Erdtree". Considering we know the Crucible Knights served Godfrey despite worshipping an entity older than the Erdtree, meaning Godfrey himself potentially predates the Erdtree, and we find at least two that I recall in Farum Azula, this must actually mean that Godfrey is actually just the human reincarnation of Pacidusax, which is the only way I can think of that we can reconcile the ideas of "Godfrey is FIRST Elden Lord" and "Placidusax was an Elden Lord from a time before Marika's rule". This, of course, blatantly ignores that calling Placidusax "an Elden Lord from before the age of the Erdtree" is meant to imply that Marika herself isn't the first nor only god-like ruler of the Lands Between and that many more world orders existed before her Golden Order.
Great analysis! It's indeed a great piece of media combining mythology, history, psychology, alchemy and mysticism, organised religion and pure fiction as a glue to. There are a ton of different aspects to it also from astronomy to biology and this fusion is unique in this media format for sure.
As someone who's been introduced to Jung's work in his teens I also drawn parallels immediately but trying not to make a lovely work of fiction into one square box I know what all the walls are made of so to speak I'd rather see it as a mix of different inspirations to not come to firm conclusions about "truths" and meanings.
Kind of reminds me of Shinobu from YuYu Hakusho. The shattering being not just literal but metaphorical as well is a pretty interesting idea
So Miyazaki read The Four Zoas by William Blake and thought "This would make an awesome video game"? Cool.
I’m very surprised you don’t think those 4 structures are more closely tied to the 4 Belfries. That sounds much more likely in my mind.
There is one thing I don't understand.
Are the four Elden Lords, with their specific archetypes, just the embodiment of that women seek in a man? Or does it just concludes the male side inside women?
From a strenght, to a hero who can't let go (wants to repair(regression)), to an allknwoing professor, to the balancing partner.
If the balancing partner is the ultimate conclusion, does that just mean the partner should be like a soulmate. He can negotiate between conscious and unconscious, meaning he sees if the partner is in trouble without the partner's saying it?
The animus embodies the masculine traits within every female psyche. As Marika matures , every aspect of her psyche does as well- including the animus. You could argue that these ‘internal men’ are probably what she would be interested in in her romantic life . Think of stage 1 as a girl in middle school- very ego driven, trying to fit in and make a name for herself within her social circles. Completely unaware of the shadow she is creating. Stage 4 would be a grandmother type of person- wise, assertive, in touch and accepting of all aspects of herself. Someone who has learned from her mistakes- very powerful and self aware.
@@CenteredTarnished
But than I think it is a bit weird that Jung describes this internal development of a woman with men. Maybe because these traits fit to men. But couldn't he just use an explanation which grants a the same solution without connecting it to men traits?
Also. Are the rest of all Demi-Gods Marika's inner thoughts and anxieties as well? Because everyone is her offspring? Or does the metaphorical meaning ends there?
THX for your first reply btw!!!
And, I'm sorry 😓, but could you explain the second and third stage of the animus like you did with the first and fourth one? The unexperienced girl and the woman of wisdom.
@@luisesteves5929 I can't really explain the complexities of Jung's model or why he chose the concepts he did. Probably the easiest way to think about it is that each person (no matter the sex) has both masculine and feminine qualities to them. These traits that follow them are 'primarily' either associated with men or women on a generic level.
I believe that the demigods are aspects of Marika's qualities/ traits. These qualities make up her personality or psyche. Usually housed within her but when she fractured the Elden Ring, she experienced something known as psychological dismemberment. Think of this like something is wrong with your car engine - in order to figure out you need to take it apart, find the issue, fix it, and reassemble it. That's what we do in game.
The stages Marika would go through would be something like: 1) a young girl growing her ego and trying to fit in -2) a young woman making decisions completely on her own for the first time and not under the supervision of her parents. She is trying to find her way in a professional world and starting a family of her own (but still unaware of her shadow side) - 3) this stage is associated with an inward turn due to some tragedy. At this point the woman is middle aged and the realities of life start to occur. Divorce, job changes, death of a parent plague this stage. In the face of this trauma - the woman is finally confronted with her shadow side. 4) The aftermath is a much stronger, whole woman who understands and accepts all aspects of herself. She has gone through some shit and come out the other side - stronger.
@@CenteredTarnished thank you so much for all the answers. Really good work and very well explained 👍
This is a really good video
I have just started watching the video. Can you link the interview where Miyazaki says Radagon and Marika have never been two separate bodies and were always a single being? Thanks! See, unless explicitly stated to be the case, I highly doubt that the inherent identical nature of Radagon and Marika directly can be interpreted as a single body and being. Similar to how Darian and Devin is seen to a be two sides of the same coin. 2 bodies, 2 minds yet 1 soul. The said unification of Marika and Radagon occurs in my analysis of the lore close to the shattering event and the D brothers is a particular analogy to their pre-unification states making part of 'Inner Order' gesture. One of the aspects of understanding 'Radagon is Marika' plot twist. The cogitations Goldmask himself was contemplating all the way back in the capital
Hey Ontos! I've watched you lore videos and like them a lot. I think we actually share a lot of the same views - we just take them in different directions. Perhaps we could have a melding of the minds video and see what we can come up with.
The interview is from the Book of Knowledge Volume 2. You can find it on reddit.
My only observation of your D brothers analogy (which I agree with) is if they share the same soul, are they 2 separate individuals? Again, in a work of fiction 2 sides of the same coin are shown in 2 characters but it is still 1 coin.
Let me know your thoughts!
It is also mentioned in the game. When you make a specific move infront of a stature in Leyndell, the stature faints and a text appears saying "Marika is Radagon". That Miyazaki says this are no new news.
Look that with the stature up on YT. Not hard to find.
@@luisesteves5929 I know about the statue already.
This is mindblowing.
Look to the title of the DLC.
"The Shadow of the Earthtree"
Than think about the Earthtree as the conscious or the ego, as it is mentioned in the video.
Look at this picture 7:18.
The shadow behind the conscious.
Renalla was given a shard by radagon/marika when they left her.
Can someone please tell me the OST used in this video
Children are fully egotistical they don't have a shadow yet. They are not bound to any mental blockages yet, but they're still undeveloped. Most children have to be thought to share or how to behave. A small child only focuses on themselves.
Definitely - it seems the shadow get's created sometime in childhood. Not early childhood but around 5-7
It could be that Godfrey is Marika but this is only speculation I always thought of it as how Christians describe God as a trinity, three persons in one being. Radagon and marika are two persons in one being
Well, Radagon is Marika as such the step children arnt not directly decendend from her, or step children to her at all. They are merely step children to Godfrey and step siblings to his decendents.
Then how do you explain Enia's dialog? Why is Godfrey as demigod?
@CenteredTarnished no idea. Just noticed toward the beginning of the video, it went over how "Radagon is Marika, but then how are radagons children related to Marika." Paraphraseing. On further thought, there is also likely a large amount of misleading terms and lore floating around the general population of the Lands Between, for instance we the player know that Marika was once a mortal Numen, but the people know her as Marika the Eternal. The same may be said for the separation of the Golden Lineage vs Radagons decendents, the people telling us the story don't know Markia and Radagons secret. It may just be that Godfrey is called a Demigod because the people don't see how a mere human could possibly achieve his feats of strength and martial glory.
At the same time, I'm sure a lot of these questions will be further illuminated by the forthcoming DLC.
Empyrion all have the ability to give birth being women or in the case of Miquella having the inate power to do so. I also think her first ego death was the death of godwyn but he is the reason for her going cocoo and shattering the elden ring, as at the bottom of leyndell, next to the frenzy flame, we can access godwyn's trone. I think the second ego death necessary for her healing is our burning of the erdtree, so we can help ranni and herself go to the sea like you said, represented by the stars and void, instead of frenzy, death, curse and all the other endings. Miquella will be the god after her leaving. Sike! we all know its Patches 🐵🐍🙃
When I clicked I was like
**please🤞 be good, please 🤞 be good 🤞 please**
I wasn't disappointed 💙
Then I went back to part 1💙
The map being a fetus is insane. I've never noticed that before 😮
This video is triggering my acid flashbacks lol
Perhaps miquella is the fourth stage, but he came about too early
I need to talk to ur dealer, or prescription agent
Elden Ring lore's a helluva drug!
Please tell us what musics used here.
I’m tryna transcend
finally the jungian comaparison
Dude you’re totally missing the point. All the questions you’re asking that you say don’t make sense are ALL answered by the fact that Marika IS Radagon. She is no less herself just because she is a rebus that shares a body with Radagon. Godfrey is not Marika. Hence why none of his demigod children were Empyrean. Ranni is an Empyrean most likely because Renalla isn’t really her mother. Michela and Malenia are most definitely Empyrean because of the fact that Radagon and Marika conceived them.
Who is Ranni's mother then? I'm not saying it's wrong but your either saying Radagon had some sort of fling with Marika during that time or introducing a brand new, never mentioned God. And is Godfrey Marika's offspring? That's what Enia says along with his Great Rune.
@@CenteredTarnished Godrick the Grafted is a distant relation to Marika. But his father Godfrey is absolutely not Marika. OP implies that maybe he is, and that’s just wrong. As for Ranni. My guess is that Rennala found out about Radagon’s secret at some point. Didn’t care because she loved him so much, and because she’s actually an Albinuric asked Radagon to bear a child for her by using Marika. Honestly I think that all Rennala’s kids are from this process, but only sometimes will you get an empyrean. I think that the more time that went by, the more control Radagon had. The more easily he could use Marika’s body. But that’s a whole other story.
It's trans time travel through broken time. you at the gym and you at the Christmas party are gay now. 🎉
@@pkthunder416 I’m gay all the time. Soooo
In Enia's case, the definition of 'demigod' she uses refers to the shard-bearers who obtained their Great Runes through their participation in the war known as The Shattering, (which is the aftermath of Marika's shattering of the Elden Ring, but isn't exactly referring to the act itself.) All of them, in one way or another, are Marika's children.
She isn't referring to Godfrey in that dialog, because at this point of the story, he's Tarnished. He was the only person to ever become a demigod through marriage, however, that changed when he was exiled as he cannot be both a demigod filled with grace and a Tarnished stripped of grace at the same time. He has more in common with us than he does with his own children who are demigods through blood.
In the context of the conversation we have with Enia, she is also talking about the people we have to face in order to obtain enough shards of the Elden Ring to prove we are worthy of entering the holy capital. To note, Godfrey was never gifted a GR like Rennala was nor was he ever tasked with guarding a GR like Malekith was before The Shattering happened. The rest of the Great Runes, like the ones that Morgott and Godrick possess, only came into existence during The Shattering while Godfrey was exiled. It'd be quite impossible for him to be one of the shard-bearers that Enia is talking to us about since he's never had a Great Rune before.
What the hell. This is an incredible interpretation.
The demigods are all direct offspring of Merika. Godfrey is not a god just a lord. Renalla is not a god. And Ranni, Rykard, and Radahn are her offspring becouse their father Radagon IS Merika.
Godrick's Great Rune: The first demigods were The Elden Lord Godfrey AND his offspring, the golden lineage. - Not sure why people refute this so much....
How is Ranni an empyrean but not her siblings?
I never said Renalla is a god, I don't think at least.
@@CenteredTarnished Yeah you’re right about Godfrey my bad. For Ranni I’ve heard a theory that only women can be Empyreans including Miquella because you could consider him half and half. Or perhaps only she is chosen because just like Mohg and Morgott, not all of the children inherited the blessing/curse.
OK FINE!😡
Im gonna watch all your videos at least twice
I think that Merika had to take on a partner and that hora loux was the most capable and best suitor out of the people who was not a demigod and didn’t not have any type of demigod powers but was the most suitable out of the people to be a lord to the living embodiment of god. Then when they produced their heirs and one was a go den child who was the embodiment of the the golden order and exactly what merika wanted. then the next set of children were omen twins which merika and the rest of the gold n order could not accept……which sent Godfrey to have to go on the long march and abandon the greater will, the Elden ring, merika, the eld tree, and the lands between, for the quality of the offspring….aside from Goldwyn. At the same time radagon/merika could not defeat the carion royal family also trying to sire valuable children which to varying degrees they succeeded with one being an empyrion and then when Godfrey was expelled merika called back radagon(merika)…then she and the greater will trying to guarantee the birth of empyrions to succeed her
If everyone is Marika it significantly lessens how much I like the game. That is some BS miyazaki, no feet for you.
The way I like to think about it is through Alchemy. It's very clear that alchemy is a heavy influence on the game. Every process of the Magnum Opus occurs within the alchemist's flask - going through transformative processes of turning an ordinary stone into the Philosopher's Stone. What the flask is to the alchemist, Marika is to the game. Meaning all the events in the game are happening inside her psyche just like all the events of the Magnum Opus occur in a flask. The pictures associated with those processes are what is playing out in game, but the substance that it is happening to is the primea materia aka Marika. It's a gigantic undertaking by Miyazaki and I think it was done quite remarkably.
Why do you like the game less then???
@CenteredTarnished wow, that's significantly worse. Okay think I'm going to move and try to forget I heard this. If M really did go that far in the story then its one I have no interest in following further.
@@specialnewb9821 but why?? It is not like just Elden Ring did this. This is a thing most likely any souls game has included by Fromsoftware. Especially noticeable in Bloodborne.
Sources on Animus Development in the description. Thank you for watching! If you enjoy this view on the lore, please consider leaving a like and subscribing😀
This ain't it. You're reaching too far chief. I'm getting flashbacks of asoiaf subreddit where there are people making tinfoil theories.
Copy that, pal. Thank you for the feedback.
EEEEEEEEEEEE~
I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE VIDEO ON MIQUELLA! 💛🪡💜🔮