Vaati has done irreparable damage to peoples approach to Lorecrafting. Not his fault of course, but I’d rather see the community deciphering the enigmatic and/or philosophical meaning behind the game’s world and its influences, than simply item-description hunting. More people like you in our community, please and thank you😊
Although I disagree with the Dream theory, it’s important for me to acknowledge that it’s not entirely impossible, especially in a game like Elden Ring. And I want to display gratitude to you for talking about things that many people don’t think about
I respectfully disagree. There is much to explore from all aspects. Vaati and the other popular lore theorists explain the story as a whole as a foundation so you can understand deeper theory dives like this one and others like the tarnishedarchaeologist who delves in the archeology and real world religious parallels.
That statue in 16:37 is insane. The way you connected it . I never thought about it this way. Great video! Thats an insane father and daughter connection. I've never seen someone else talk about it
I actually love yout theory, it is a unique way to look at the game. Now what if Placidusax is in a way representative of how Marika dealt with the grief of losing her father in early childhood (like your theory mentioned), he waits for a god to return that will never return. like a child would wait for a dead person to return, because they do not understand death. And now what if the same applies to Rennala, she represents to loss of a child in adulthood. Probably Ranni like you mentioned, Ranni dies in body and Godwyn or Marika's ego dies in spirit. This would leave somebody verry depressed like Rennala. Rennala also clings to her ember egg representing rebirth. So maybe Marika lost a child while pregnant, this left her depressed, but also clining to her pregnancy or the rebirth of her child. And when this pregnancy goes horribly wrong because of the stress and depression on Marika, leaving her withoud a child and maybe even infirtile (the impaled womb, maybe by Messmer the impaler) this is the last straw that breaks / shatters her mind. sorry for the bad english grammar it is not my first language, and this was just a thought.
Very interesting video. I’ve only recently come across your work and I really enjoy hearing your interpretation from a Jungian perspective (this is how I was partly interpreting the lore on my first play). I like your idea that this story takes place in Marika’s psyche, this is definitely possible since we know Bloodborne used themes of dreams, along with Jungian and Neiztschean philosophy and psychology so heavily. I wonder if Marika’s dream here in the lands between is meant to represent Mary dealing with the death of Jesus - given all the christian connotations in the game. Or perhaps that itself is a tool intended to bring the audience more broadly into a story of grief and mourning of an individual woman, by using the story at the centre of European culture and representing how it played out historically and religiously. We see layers of civilisation and religion in the lands between that reflect the progression of irl human civilisation. Perhaps Miyazaki is attempting to explain human consciousness in some psycho-historical way through a story of psychological grief-dream. Or vice-versa.
There are two ways to understand the lore of Miyazaki games like Souls or Elden Ring and this way is very crucial. Item descriptions and the facade of the story are not enough.
I like your analysis and you show some big paralels between the game and alchemy/psychology. However i don't like the focus that "it's all a dream/metaphor/imaginary". That to me takes away a lot from the world and world-building we see, having it all just be vague representations of some woman's inner mind. It is 100% evident the lore draws heavily from alchemy and psychology but i don't think that's reason enough to consider everything just allegories with no inner structure. It can just be a world with events inspired by alchemy processes, without having it function only by dream logic.
Totally get it. Although it’s not a dream necessarily- it’s just her psyche we are playing in. Did you enjoy Bloodborne? That was literally a dream and was probably the best game of FromSoft in my opinion. Elden Ring is closer to Inception than a dream- if that makes sense.
Really interesting stuff. I don't think Ranni is Marika's child though. Ranni is Radagon's child. Marika was distressed by Godwyn's dead and that's why the shattering began. And I know what you're thinking, but remember that Ranni was a redhead, (and that seems minor, but truly is very important) and that has a clear narrative purpose to point us in a clear direction. The thing about Marika's offspring narration is to tell us the beat that Radagon is Marika. Nothing more than thatt. I think the usurper theory by Jarhead has a lot of merit in regards to build a timeline that explaims a lot of these events. Check it out if you can
Also, direct quotes from the game “Radagon is Marika” therefore Ranni is Marika’s daughter. “the demigods are each and all the direct offspring of Queen Marika” Finger Reader Enia. But like thecrankyoldman said, it’s not the very granular specifics that are the focus of the theory, it’s a holistic and symbolic reading that conclusions are being based on.
Its sad how your channel and that Bloodborne guy get no attention, that yall deserve. People are lost on the superficial fact based historical analizys when the depht of the true lore is only tangible by your aproach. Vaaty and his copycats are not cutting it anymore.
@@CenteredTarnished I take the story at face value to be honest. Seems pretty straight forward once you get the full story. Though there is lots of hidden meaning and metaphor. I don't really know any other theories that encapsulate the entire game quite like yours. I hope I didn't seem condescending. I enjoy your channel.
Oh gosh, not at all! I enjoy looking into theories and ideas is all- so I was just curious. Again, I don’t try to sway anyone to join my Jung cult lol just enjoy it and making videos about it. People can choose for themselves! And my guess is, it’ll be a hodgepodge of a few different theories.
Before I get too much further. I get that you're documenting Jung and there certainly are all kinds of cultural examples of the some equivalent of the word, "alchemy," being used to describe internal human preprocesses, I just want to point out that a lot of what Jung had to say was just completely made up by him. Jung was probably more of a scholar than he was anything else and I'll give him credit for his scholarship abilities but outside of that he was a relentless quack and was little more than a showman who used Freud's pop psychology as a backdrop for his own show. Historically speaking Alchemy was a hodgepodge of concepts yes but it was most certainly and most prominently a school of proto-chemistry that was largely used as a way to make things like distilled alcohol, refined sugar, basic medicines and perfumes. Most of it, from a European perspective at least, was an aggregate of otherwise lost knowledge from the Islamic golden age, which itself was built on previous Roman, Indian, Chinese, Greek and Egyptian ones. In fact, if you want to find a possible source of the lead into gold myth, check out Nile Red's video on lead iodide. So, all of that being said. I'm 100% sure that Miyazaki does indeed dip into the writings of Jung, if for no other reason than because the Berzerk manga also does so and does so heavily. So what is my point? My point is that Miyazaki is not recreating Berzerk no more than he is recreating the story of Jesus or Baldur or other stories at all. Miyazaki tells his own story and he is clearly pushing back to real world myth and legend more than present day re-imagining with Elden Ring. This might possibly be because of George R.R. Martin's contribution but I think the evidence is numerous and clear. Elements such as the perfumers, the deep multi-layerd history with the divine towers being impossibly old like Stone Henge, The similarities of the golden order and Imperial Rome, The similarities between the pre golden order era game and the pre Roman era of history, Similarities between King Aurther and Godfrey, the similarites between Radagon and his children and Loki and his children. Eiglay literally being pulled from eastern European paganism... etc, etc. I could go on and on but my point is that there is a clear story here with clear actors with clear allusions to real myths and the real world historical cultures that spawned such myths. Yes Miyazaki leaves holes in his stories explicitly so the player character can fill them but that does not mean that his story is not there or even fundamentally incomplete. I just hope that you don't go too hard on about having an interpretation that's too metaphorical and if you do go too hard on Jung, that's all you ever get in return. =( Any how, back to the video. =)
Oh I’m deep already. I’m not sure what credentials you have to call Jung’s work quackery but that’s really all I need to know. Even if Miyazaki himself walked up to you and told you it was 100% Jungian (which it’s not) I’m not so sure you would even believe him. Trust me, I understand all the mythical correlations to other stories and I’m just boiling them down to their prima materia - psychology. These stories all have very similar features no matter who or when they were made. This means it’s embedded deep into our psychology. And if Miyazaki used this in Beserk, and Bloodborne was a dream and psychological themes everywhere…… what makes you think ER would be different? I don’t have the time in life to pursue every single thread that may or may not be involved in the story. I think Jungian psych is as close to the complete story any has gotten so, respectful, I’ll keep digging.
You don't need a lot of credentials to question Jung, tbh. Expanding on what Beans touched on with alchemy, Jung's work and any theory he created using alchemy was not at all rooted in the historical record of how alchemy was actually used in practice, aka in the laboratory setting that would eventually lead into chemistry. He put little faith into that aspect of alchemy despite it being half of what alchemy really is and is the reason for its existence in the first place. And on a more spiritual/metaphysical level, the concepts and ideas he did try to explore was so narrow and rooted in his own preconceived notions of the mind that his work on alchemy is incapable to fully grasp what alchemy is really about and what it really tried to teach people. The same goes for his work on Eastern philosophy. When he visited Asia to better understand how they viewed and taught psychology, he didn't talk to any Easter psychologists who could've educated him on how they view the mind and the self since it varies wildly from the individualistic view Westerners have of the psyche. He didn't bring his ideas to any Eastern philosophiers or spiritual leaders who could've challenged his theories with their own. I bring this up because Elden Ring is an Eastern game developed by an Asian company. On a very specific level, there's Jung's commentary on The Secret of the Golden Flower was based on a translation made by a friend of his whi made an effort to use Jungian language and symbols instead of the traditional Chinese Taoist imagery and metaphors originally used in the spiritual text. Very few practicing Taoists hold that book as a faithful translation. These things, which were real documented events that Jung did, could be enough for his critics to consider him as a quack who went out of his to make sure he was never wrong. And as an FYI, psychology is widely accepted as a field of science, while Jung's theories are thought of as unscientific due to their unfalsifiable nature. Not many people would label what Jung did, and by extension what you're doing here, as real psychology. That in and of itself is enough to be labeled as quack by definition.
Does any of this have to do with Jung being a possible inspiration for Miyazaki? Or are you just giving a quick thesis on the criticisms of his work? I’m not really sure the point of this comment. The criticisms have no bearing on whether or not it’s an inspiration for Elden Ring. If you’re this passionate about Jung - I’d suggest you comment on people who are actually using his teachings in the real world- not a guy connecting them to a fantasy world.
Well,the alchemist believed that if a process happened in one realm (Soul,Spirit or Physical) then it also happened in another one,and what they did was to try to prove it in the lab. Like they believed that everything was composed of these 3 components (Sulphur-Soul; Mercury-Spirit; and Salt-Body) It's easy to prove that the animal and plant realm have these 3 components,but what happens if you take a Mineral and a Metal and extract from it a Spirit and an Oil,so they just went to the lab and do it to prove it. And they succeeded, even modern Alchemist produce Metallic oils and stuff. So,it's safe to say that the Philosopher's Stone was real and not just an internal process like Jung believed. There are even books that claim of people coming across or even producing it? But of course,they're just claims
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 88 | คู่เอก "ป้อมเพชร vs อัสลามจอน"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ZqTVVbMgbo/mqdefault.jpg)
That 'bury your head in the items descriptions' by taking the wrong pill was funny. I'm continuing the video :D Excited to hear your thoughts man!
Vaati has done irreparable damage to peoples approach to Lorecrafting.
Not his fault of course, but I’d rather see the community deciphering the enigmatic and/or philosophical meaning behind the game’s world and its influences, than simply item-description hunting.
More people like you in our community, please and thank you😊
Although I disagree with the Dream theory, it’s important for me to acknowledge that it’s not entirely impossible, especially in a game like Elden Ring. And I want to display gratitude to you for talking about things that many people don’t think about
I respectfully disagree. There is much to explore from all aspects. Vaati and the other popular lore theorists explain the story as a whole as a foundation so you can understand deeper theory dives like this one and others like the tarnishedarchaeologist who delves in the archeology and real world religious parallels.
@@dellodawhat exactly do you disagree with lmao, what you said and op aren’t mutually exclusive
It's not irreparable, centered tarnished is doing it right now^^ don't be such a drama queen
Maaaaan, the First Time you saw the Night 's Calvary.....great memory!
I just get more and more amazed with every entry in this series, please keep it up!!
Will do! Thanks for the love
That statue in 16:37 is insane. The way you connected it . I never thought about it this way. Great video! Thats an insane father and daughter connection. I've never seen someone else talk about it
Thanks! I think it’s either her real father or the symbol of the Ego that dies and is reborn with each new order.
Heresy is not native to the world,
It is but a contrivance
All things can be conjoined
Turtle Pope for Elden Lord
Work has swamped all my time, love the content brother hope to catch another live when I get the chance.
Thank you my friend!
Oh wow that was quite the intro
I actually love yout theory, it is a unique way to look at the game. Now what if Placidusax is in a way representative of how Marika dealt with the grief of losing her father in early childhood (like your theory mentioned), he waits for a god to return that will never return. like a child would wait for a dead person to return, because they do not understand death. And now what if the same applies to Rennala, she represents to loss of a child in adulthood. Probably Ranni like you mentioned, Ranni dies in body and Godwyn or Marika's ego dies in spirit. This would leave somebody verry depressed like Rennala. Rennala also clings to her ember egg representing rebirth. So maybe Marika lost a child while pregnant, this left her depressed, but also clining to her pregnancy or the rebirth of her child. And when this pregnancy goes horribly wrong because of the stress and depression on Marika, leaving her withoud a child and maybe even infirtile (the impaled womb, maybe by Messmer the impaler) this is the last straw that breaks / shatters her mind. sorry for the bad english grammar it is not my first language, and this was just a thought.
Found your Channel and theory a few days ago, amazing work!
There's a clown on my roof
Yes I also believe Marika Shattered the Elden Ring because of Rannis Death.
And Ranni did not know Marika would do that
Very interesting video. I’ve only recently come across your work and I really enjoy hearing your interpretation from a Jungian perspective (this is how I was partly interpreting the lore on my first play).
I like your idea that this story takes place in Marika’s psyche, this is definitely possible since we know Bloodborne used themes of dreams, along with Jungian and Neiztschean philosophy and psychology so heavily. I wonder if Marika’s dream here in the lands between is meant to represent Mary dealing with the death of Jesus - given all the christian connotations in the game. Or perhaps that itself is a tool intended to bring the audience more broadly into a story of grief and mourning of an individual woman, by using the story at the centre of European culture and representing how it played out historically and religiously. We see layers of civilisation and religion in the lands between that reflect the progression of irl human civilisation. Perhaps Miyazaki is attempting to explain human consciousness in some psycho-historical way through a story of psychological grief-dream. Or vice-versa.
Yo this my guy BLEW MY MIND
This is why I love Miyazaki story telling, everyone has their own view just like those npc you find in the lands between.
Great channel
Fantastic video! @CenteredTarnished what was the background song you used throughout the video?
There are two ways to understand the lore of Miyazaki games like Souls or Elden Ring and this way is very crucial. Item descriptions and the facade of the story are not enough.
I like your analysis and you show some big paralels between the game and alchemy/psychology. However i don't like the focus that "it's all a dream/metaphor/imaginary". That to me takes away a lot from the world and world-building we see, having it all just be vague representations of some woman's inner mind. It is 100% evident the lore draws heavily from alchemy and psychology but i don't think that's reason enough to consider everything just allegories with no inner structure. It can just be a world with events inspired by alchemy processes, without having it function only by dream logic.
Totally get it. Although it’s not a dream necessarily- it’s just her psyche we are playing in. Did you enjoy Bloodborne? That was literally a dream and was probably the best game of FromSoft in my opinion. Elden Ring is closer to Inception than a dream- if that makes sense.
Look at it as America
Tis a good video
interesting
You a Psych major?
Bro I am and I never thought of this
so it was all in le head?
Really interesting stuff. I don't think Ranni is Marika's child though. Ranni is Radagon's child. Marika was distressed by Godwyn's dead and that's why the shattering began. And I know what you're thinking, but remember that Ranni was a redhead, (and that seems minor, but truly is very important) and that has a clear narrative purpose to point us in a clear direction. The thing about Marika's offspring narration is to tell us the beat that Radagon is Marika. Nothing more than thatt. I think the usurper theory by Jarhead has a lot of merit in regards to build a timeline that explaims a lot of these events. Check it out if you can
Also, direct quotes from the game “Radagon is Marika” therefore Ranni is Marika’s daughter. “the demigods are each and all the direct offspring of Queen Marika” Finger Reader Enia. But like thecrankyoldman said, it’s not the very granular specifics that are the focus of the theory, it’s a holistic and symbolic reading that conclusions are being based on.
Its sad how your channel and that Bloodborne guy get no attention, that yall deserve. People are lost on the superficial fact based historical analizys when the depht of the true lore is only tangible by your aproach. Vaaty and his copycats are not cutting it anymore.
Well said my friend
If you don't accept the theory that this is all a dream (like me) then this video will make no sense. Still an interesting idea though. Good stuff.
Haha thanks! I’m curious what theory you subscribe to? Not trying to sway you at all. Just curious what other ideas are out there.
@@CenteredTarnished I take the story at face value to be honest. Seems pretty straight forward once you get the full story. Though there is lots of hidden meaning and metaphor. I don't really know any other theories that encapsulate the entire game quite like yours. I hope I didn't seem condescending. I enjoy your channel.
Oh gosh, not at all! I enjoy looking into theories and ideas is all- so I was just curious. Again, I don’t try to sway anyone to join my Jung cult lol just enjoy it and making videos about it. People can choose for themselves! And my guess is, it’ll be a hodgepodge of a few different theories.
Before I get too much further.
I get that you're documenting Jung and there certainly are all kinds of cultural examples of the some equivalent of the word, "alchemy," being used to describe internal human preprocesses, I just want to point out that a lot of what Jung had to say was just completely made up by him.
Jung was probably more of a scholar than he was anything else and I'll give him credit for his scholarship abilities but outside of that he was a relentless quack and was little more than a showman who used Freud's pop psychology as a backdrop for his own show.
Historically speaking Alchemy was a hodgepodge of concepts yes but it was most certainly and most prominently a school of proto-chemistry that was largely used as a way to make things like distilled alcohol, refined sugar, basic medicines and perfumes.
Most of it, from a European perspective at least, was an aggregate of otherwise lost knowledge from the Islamic golden age, which itself was built on previous Roman, Indian, Chinese, Greek and Egyptian ones.
In fact, if you want to find a possible source of the lead into gold myth, check out Nile Red's video on lead iodide.
So, all of that being said. I'm 100% sure that Miyazaki does indeed dip into the writings of Jung, if for no other reason than because the Berzerk manga also does so and does so heavily.
So what is my point?
My point is that Miyazaki is not recreating Berzerk no more than he is recreating the story of Jesus or Baldur or other stories at all. Miyazaki tells his own story and he is clearly pushing back to real world myth and legend more than present day re-imagining with Elden Ring.
This might possibly be because of George R.R. Martin's contribution but I think the evidence is numerous and clear.
Elements such as the perfumers, the deep multi-layerd history with the divine towers being impossibly old like Stone Henge, The similarities of the golden order and Imperial Rome, The similarities between the pre golden order era game and the pre Roman era of history, Similarities between King Aurther and Godfrey, the similarites between Radagon and his children and Loki and his children. Eiglay literally being pulled from eastern European paganism... etc, etc.
I could go on and on but my point is that there is a clear story here with clear actors with clear allusions to real myths and the real world historical cultures that spawned such myths.
Yes Miyazaki leaves holes in his stories explicitly so the player character can fill them but that does not mean that his story is not there or even fundamentally incomplete.
I just hope that you don't go too hard on about having an interpretation that's too metaphorical and if you do go too hard on Jung, that's all you ever get in return. =(
Any how, back to the video. =)
Oh I’m deep already. I’m not sure what credentials you have to call Jung’s work quackery but that’s really all I need to know. Even if Miyazaki himself walked up to you and told you it was 100% Jungian (which it’s not) I’m not so sure you would even believe him. Trust me, I understand all the mythical correlations to other stories and I’m just boiling them down to their prima materia - psychology. These stories all have very similar features no matter who or when they were made. This means it’s embedded deep into our psychology. And if Miyazaki used this in Beserk, and Bloodborne was a dream and psychological themes everywhere…… what makes you think ER would be different?
I don’t have the time in life to pursue every single thread that may or may not be involved in the story. I think Jungian psych is as close to the complete story any has gotten so, respectful, I’ll keep digging.
You don't need a lot of credentials to question Jung, tbh. Expanding on what Beans touched on with alchemy, Jung's work and any theory he created using alchemy was not at all rooted in the historical record of how alchemy was actually used in practice, aka in the laboratory setting that would eventually lead into chemistry. He put little faith into that aspect of alchemy despite it being half of what alchemy really is and is the reason for its existence in the first place.
And on a more spiritual/metaphysical level, the concepts and ideas he did try to explore was so narrow and rooted in his own preconceived notions of the mind that his work on alchemy is incapable to fully grasp what alchemy is really about and what it really tried to teach people.
The same goes for his work on Eastern philosophy. When he visited Asia to better understand how they viewed and taught psychology, he didn't talk to any Easter psychologists who could've educated him on how they view the mind and the self since it varies wildly from the individualistic view Westerners have of the psyche. He didn't bring his ideas to any Eastern philosophiers or spiritual leaders who could've challenged his theories with their own. I bring this up because Elden Ring is an Eastern game developed by an Asian company.
On a very specific level, there's Jung's commentary on The Secret of the Golden Flower was based on a translation made by a friend of his whi made an effort to use Jungian language and symbols instead of the traditional Chinese Taoist imagery and metaphors originally used in the spiritual text. Very few practicing Taoists hold that book as a faithful translation.
These things, which were real documented events that Jung did, could be enough for his critics to consider him as a quack who went out of his to make sure he was never wrong.
And as an FYI, psychology is widely accepted as a field of science, while Jung's theories are thought of as unscientific due to their unfalsifiable nature. Not many people would label what Jung did, and by extension what you're doing here, as real psychology. That in and of itself is enough to be labeled as quack by definition.
Does any of this have to do with Jung being a possible inspiration for Miyazaki? Or are you just giving a quick thesis on the criticisms of his work? I’m not really sure the point of this comment. The criticisms have no bearing on whether or not it’s an inspiration for Elden Ring. If you’re this passionate about Jung - I’d suggest you comment on people who are actually using his teachings in the real world- not a guy connecting them to a fantasy world.
Well,the alchemist believed that if a process happened in one realm (Soul,Spirit or Physical) then it also happened in another one,and what they did was to try to prove it in the lab.
Like they believed that everything was composed of these 3 components (Sulphur-Soul; Mercury-Spirit; and Salt-Body)
It's easy to prove that the animal and plant realm have these 3 components,but what happens if you take a Mineral and a Metal and extract from it a Spirit and an Oil,so they just went to the lab and do it to prove it. And they succeeded, even modern Alchemist produce Metallic oils and stuff. So,it's safe to say that the Philosopher's Stone was real and not just an internal process like Jung believed.
There are even books that claim of people coming across or even producing it? But of course,they're just claims