Syriac Christians: The Forgotten People Of Islam
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.พ. 2022
- The Muslim Conquests were a turning point in history. Was God on their side or was there someone else helping them in their victories? Did everyone live under Islamic law? Did everyone live separately? Will Islam continue to evolve as Christianity and Judaism has?
Dr. Michael Penn's works 👇 www.amazon.com/dp/0520299205/...
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This really sheds light on the unspoken narratives related to today's geopolitics.
Hi I'm a former pentecostal and Messianic now Jewish Torah keeper who hopes to be in weeks in a certain Way invited by you in your channel.
That’s why “MARVELOUS QURAN” channel by Dr Hany makes so sense..
Idiots do not have information about battle of YARMOOK 636 AD found in Byzantium history.
Who fought the Byzantium in 636 AD just 4 years after the death of Muhammad?
Who fought the battle of Qadisiyya in 636 and by 637 the Persians came to Gujarat to seek refuge. Don't read Islamic history. Read at least Sasanian history. If you can't read original Sasanian sources at least go through
"Sasanian Persia: The Rise and Fall of an Empire and Sasanian Iran".
Abdal Malik al Marwan ascended the throne of Damascus 50 yeas after the conquest of Yarmook and Qadisiyya.
Michael Penn's work is pure shit.
Thanks to Myth Vision for wasting my time.
Oh my God. It's Michael Penn! I was once at a very delightful conference with him. Terrific topic and interview.
Wow! This is a book I need to read. My family is from the Syrian Christian tradition in Kerala, India and have always been intrigued by the history of Syriac Christianity.
Were you in QP.
Were you ? I was in QP too.
Syriac Christian here, I do resent the tile but i understand it’s for clickbait purposes. I feel over all this gave a different perspective and I found that extremely interesting. I just wish you had mentioned the genocide and the miss treatment of the Syriac people, that is a huge part of our history and not doing so painted a very bright picture but not delving into the reason why they aren’t the majority anymore did more harm than good. Other than that I think the video was super interesting and very informative.
Very interesting .. Could you please cite some reference to read about this genocide?
My mother was a syriac christian, what genocides are you mentioning just so I can help the people following your thread?
Is it the syric population was already declining in the time of the Byzantine? And got stabilized after the arabs until back the crusaders?
Can you cite the genocides that let the syriac majority of the levant till the 14th century?
Lol
@@tarafahomsy the xtian pulled the genocide reference out of his behind, that’s why he doesn’t want to admit his source is his b(|)tt cheek. The same source for the so called “Armenian ge-No-cide” made up chrstian missionaries
I love it when people hate on Christians by calling them xtians. Xmas comes from Xristos. Perhaps check with Google before accusing someone of pulling genocide out of their but. Connecting Islam and Syriac Christianity without mentioning the Safoy and the fact that Ottoman Muslims killed a half million people (including Greeks only bought 1/4 million Armenians) is a bit insensitive. Derek is really growing as a scholar though and I suspect it was just something he was unaware of. I had to Google it myself but knew it wasn't being pulled from my brother Xristou (in Christ) behind. When dealing with Christian/Muslim relations it's important to be sensitive to modern history even when the focus is historical.
The Sayfo or the Seyfo (lit. 'sword'), also known as the Assyrian genocide, was the mass slaughter and deportation of Assyrian/Syriac Christians in southeastern Anatolia and Persia's Azerbaijan province by Ottoman forces and some Kurdish tribes during World War I.
What a great video. There's so much good content on this channel, so it took me a while to get to this one. Glad I finally did!
We NEED this....I love you bro!! For your honesty ane courage!!!
As part of the syriac church from kerala India, i strongly feel that people these days should really learn about this and know more about their roots.
@Kiran RC
You roots are sanātana dharma.
@@paulthomas281 Many Syriac Christians in India were Jewish before becoming Syriacs, a lot of contact in ancient times on trade routes.
@@paulthomas281You're the God who determines people's traditions? Indian Christianity is ancient.
@@palsyr4307I am 55 in a couple weeks but I hope to learn Syriac Aramaic well enough to "decode" if not read the Peshitta. Peace.
Indian Christianity is based on make-believe and lies. As for "determining" other people's identities and traditions, I don't have the power to do that. All I have is freedom to think and freedom of speech. Christians and Muslims in India/South Asia are, well .. how should I put this, the most ignorant people you'll find when it comes to any sort of understanding of history.@@alwilliams5177
Most Syriac Christians would be horrified by the title.
we need more of this guy about the other of his books great job ,you work hard for us thanks
Big Thank you Derek and Michael Penn, Epic interiew, interesting aspects. If he teamed up with certain islamic scholars, the cross dialogue and sharing of information would surely be epic. Can't wait to see MIcheal Penn again.
This is one of the best conversations I’ve ever watched on MV
REALLY GLAD TO SEE YOU BEGIN TO EXAMINE SYRIAC CHRISTIANITY. One episode barely scratches the surface - - but it's a start! Suggestion - your guest mentioned the Malabar Christians, but didn't mention the fact that they were Jewish Christians - - as was their founder, Thomas (known there as "Mar Thoma"). The Ethiopian Christians were strongly influenced by Syrian Christian missionaries.
Iam syrian christian of Malabar in india
We have numismatic and literary evidence for Apostle Thomas' mission to the Kingdom of Gondaphores in what is today W. Afghanistan. There is no such evidence to support his presence in Malabar. Is it plausible that he could have made it to the region? Yes, given the ancient maritime spice trade routes to the region and the presence of an ancient Jewish community. But there isn't a shred of evidence.
@@tj0405 "According to tradition, Thomas took the gospel of Christ to the subcontinent of India. Various historical records and traditions indicate that Thomas traveled by sea to India in AD 52. He was later martyred and buried there after witnessing to the Indian people. The tomb of St. Thomas is in Mylapore, India."
Im lebanese mar thoma i think is called with my Christian friends as Mar touma
@@robinstevenson6690 Can you please cite at least one of the "various historical records" that you suggest exist indicating Thomas' travel to India in AD 52 as well as martyrdom in Mylapore? Any such records are far removed from AD 52 to be credible.
Thank you! I have been thinking this for years. Glad to learn more about it.
Thank you, MythVision for sharing knowledge and research on ancient shit!
Here is a great clip on Syriac Christians th-cam.com/video/e50qiS-IjJM/w-d-xo.html
Good info! Very learned Professor and very humble gentleman.Keep it up Mr Derek
One impact of Syriac christians on Islam, was the introduction biblical stories into the Islamic mainstream. Early Muslims did not have enough knowledge to make sense of the references to antiquities, and they followed the biblical narrative. Early Christian converts also brought in some elements of their former religion into Islamic way of thinking. Romans did not allow religion of freedom, making life difficult for them. That explains the Muslim conquest to some extent. The bulk of Syriac Christians converted, they spoke more or less
the same language as Arabs.
Very interesting! Thank you for that.
Excellent interview. Prof Penn is such a humble and well-informed guest who respects historical sources. Thank you Derek for posting this video 🙏🙏.
What Dr. Michael Penn is saying is nothing new. Günter Lüling (1928-2014) has written about the Syriac Christian Origins of Islam. His book 'Challenge to Islam for Reformation: The Rediscovery and reliable Reconstruction of a comprehensive pre-Islamic Christian Hymnal hidden in the Koran under earliest Islamic Reinterpretations' exposes how Quran is a compilation of pre-islamic Arabic/Syriac/Aramaic literature of the eastern churches used in liturgical purposes. 'The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran: A Contribution to the Decoding of the Language of the Qur'an' by Christoph Luxenberg is Another book exposing the Syriac antecedents of Quran.
@@roshlew6994 my comment regarding Dr Penn is to commend him on not taking any sources for granted especially the later ones and he doesn’t seem to be driven by a religious agenda.
I have been listening to the Inarah school of thought via Thomas Alexander and I do follow Professor Luxemberg on an Arabic channel where he is going through the Syro-Aramaic reading of the Quran. He has presented over 50 lectures so far. Happy to share the channel if you are interested.
@@fay1298 Dr. Penn seems to accept the standard islamic narrative on origins of Islam, quran or Kaaba. This narrative has been debunked by other historians like Dr. Patricia crone Dr. Robert Hoyland etc. Other academics like Gunther Luling have uncovered the true origins of Quran. Dr. Penn is trying to put forth the thesis that early Islam and Eastern Christianity were distinct religious ideologies, which is untrue. Islam originated as an anti-trinitarian Arab Judeo-Christian sect promoted by Arab empire. The Arab empire formed in the power vaccumm of destroyed Persian empire in early 7th century, and the withdrawal of Byzentine empire from middle-east region..
@@roshlew6994 I didn’t hear him talk about Mecca or the Kaaba and didn’t hear him defend the standard Islamic narrative. I must admit that I read his book “When Christians first met Muslims” many years ago and he was focusing on the transcripts and documents that were written by Christians in Syria during the supposedly Islamic da’wa which has been fabricated by later sources during the Abbasids in the 9 and 10 centuries.
@@fay1298 There are many videos of Dr. Penn, especially of Islamic apologists channels, which shows him regurgitating the Islamic narrative, without challenging it. Fortunately, many academics lately have been working on the early history of Islam, from multiple different angles. One thing common among them is that they don't blindly trust the standard Islamic narrative and are willing to challenge it. Some from textual criticism of Quran, others from archeological and historical records. Once the narrative is challenged, other things follow. Dr. Penn seems to accept the narrative as is, describing the events of 7th century, and is mainly focused on 8th century and later, when the theology of Islam is gradually developing as a distinct Arab religion and it's interactions with other religions present in the Arab empire of which Eastern Christianity is dominant. Dr. Penn's agenda seems to be to demonstrate to the world that there was perfect harmony between Muslims & non-muslims during the rise and expansion of the Arab empire.
In Kerala, India, Syro Malabar Christians used to read the Bible and participate in liturgy in Syriac- Aramaic until the early 19th century. It was then that bible was translated into local language Malayalam. Also Jewish merchants used to live along the coast of Kerala from the time of King Solomon or even before.
There was no King Solomon. Bogus history. There's no King David etc. They are false.
We used Syriac up until 1960s and it slowly got translated to Malayalam as the people didn't understand Syriac anymore thanks to the Catholics. Our Bible, the Pshitha never got translated to Malayalam. It is the Roman Catholic Bible that got translated. Also, our traditions were completely changed in about 100 years. Reciting the rosary etc are very new. We had hourly prayers and Holy Qurbana was conducted only on Sundays. That changed. Now just like the Roman Catholics, we recite the rosery, we conduct Holy mass on a daily basis. We still have a small group of Syriac Christian Nasranis in Kerala who does things in the old way. They're not affiliated to Catholic Church, but to the Assyrian church of the East.
@@zenjm6496does it matter? Except for knanaya, all you are dravdian converts. So who cares about "muh ancestors read Bible in syriac" lol
@@comradespiderman29It matters.Coz Syriac Christians are an inter mix of Syrians . Knanayas are just descendants of the early Syrians who were strict about blood purity(early Syrian Christian were notorious for that).Later on, many other wave of migrations came,as can be evidenced in the Syrian Christian copper plates(wiki) and a lot more.They intermixed with the local Nasrani populace.And btw what is wrong about dravidians lol
Very enjoyable - thank you for the wonderful discussions. Mar Stephen OCCA (a small jurisdiction with roots in the Syrian Church in India)
Thank you for this derek!
Why thank Derek when it is not reality. These Islamic regimes were brutal. No one would dare to stand up to them or would have been killed.
@@philwolves2660 then why are there still Christians and zoroastrians there now? It is a tangled reality some were certainly brutal and Christians were as well. The point of this video is to shed some light on that knot. Rather than broad brush it.
Another top of the pops Derek. I don't know how you do it buddy but never stop.
No one challenges him so his opinion is worth nothing and his sources does not make sense.
Any Christian or Jew criticising the rulers of the Islamic states in question would have been killed. All they were doing were surviving. They were oppressed in reality.
People forgets how brutal these regimes were and Derek has reinforced a myth that Islamic is a religion of peace what is a load of rubbish. Look at history?
@@philwolves2660 Wow great take buddy, where did you publish these findings so I can read you and ignore this expert.
Excellent video
Very good both of you.
very good!
I live in Carolina too... Would love to meet with you one day. I studied religions at UNC Charlotte. I had classes with Dr Tabor
Fascinating! Thank you!!!
Love this guest, his passion for the subject makes me want to know more!
What Dr. Michael Penn is saying is nothing new. Günter Lüling (1928-2014) has written about the Syriac Christian Origins of Islam. His book 'Challenge to Islam for Reformation: The Rediscovery and reliable Reconstruction of a comprehensive pre-Islamic Christian Hymnal hidden in the Koran under earliest Islamic Reinterpretations' exposes how Quran is a compilation of pre-islamic Arabic/Syriac/Aramaic literature of the eastern churches used in liturgical purposes. 'The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran: A Contribution to the Decoding of the Language of the Qur'an' by Christoph Luxenberg is Another book exposing the Syriac antecedents of Quran.
Islam began as a anti-trinitarian Arab Christian sect promoted by Arab empire. The Arabs compiled Quran from pre-islamic Christian lectionaries of Eastern churches..
Islam didn't exist as a religion until Abd Al-Malik (reign 685-705AD) of Abbasid dynasty.
In reality these Islamic regimes were brutal, anyone can pick out instances to support they were not that bad.
The NAZI revisionists does the same. There are example of Jews even going out with SS soldiers but overall like the NAZIES Islamic regimes were brutal.
@@philwolves2660 and the Christian's were any better?
@@philwolves2660 hmmm. Then you don’t know history.
th-cam.com/video/C8M4i9fvq1M/w-d-xo.html
Many modern day Syrians practice the traditions of each other. My one time Syrian Christian neighbors observed Ramadan.
Jesus of the Bible and Jesus of Islam is completely different everyone knows that so you cannot follow both books that is insane.
@@philwolves2660 says the zionist
If we are gonna use that model then the Jesus in the 4 canonical gospels are 4 different Jesus's
Didn't Jesus also fast
@@merlinx8703 the other problem is there are dozens of other bible non canonised also have different versions.
@@teefx5681 gnostic and docetic christianity are very different from modern day orthodox christianity
I remember reading about the gnostic gospel of John and was very surprised on their entire cosmology
Very interesting !
I'd love to see Dr. Michael Penn discuss 7th century Islam with Dr. Jay Smith of Pfander Films. Both of them are scholars of 7th and 8th century Middle Eastern religion and related politics of that age.
Thank you for such enlightenment and this new vision that I strongly agree with based on my multi speciality readings, as an Egyptian engineer born Muslim 73 years ago 🙂🌹
Excellent!
On 39:37 it says "Qawm Mohammad" meaning nation of Mohammad, this does not say Mohammad was with them at all!
Thank you, wow, restoration.
The more things change, the more things stay the same. There will always be religious zealots that want division and people who just want good neighbors and friends and direct their own lives.
It would be very interesting to delve more deeply into THE VARIETIES OF ANCIENT CHRISTIANITY. For example, it's said that 4 of the 12 apostles traveled to Armenia and Georgia. There was a major church referred to as the ANCIENT CHURCH OF THE EAST, and an entire branch of Christianity known as ORIENTAL ORTHODOX - - which is completely different from Greek Orthodox.
Like the ebonites and nasareens
church of the east was nestorian and based in iraq, colloquially called the persian church
@@edwardtheconfessor1546 It wasn't Nestorian. Western Christians called us Nestorians because we accepted Mar Nestorius to our Church. Neither Mar Nestorius nor the Chaldean Church was Nestorian.
I have Professor Pen's books, they're awesome
Here is another great clip of him th-cam.com/video/kzJojqPy7NQ/w-d-xo.html
What Dr. Michael Penn is saying is nothing new. Günter Lüling (1928-2014) has written about the Syriac Christian Origins of Islam. His book 'Challenge to Islam for Reformation: The Rediscovery and reliable Reconstruction of a comprehensive pre-Islamic Christian Hymnal hidden in the Koran under earliest Islamic Reinterpretations' exposes how Quran is a compilation of pre-islamic Arabic/Syriac/Aramaic literature of the eastern churches used in liturgical purposes. 'The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran: A Contribution to the Decoding of the Language of the Qur'an' by Christoph Luxenberg is Another book exposing the Syriac antecedents of Quran.
@@roshlew6994 Still, his book has its own significance!
@@SohelBahjat Dr. Penn seems to accept the standard islamic narrative on origins of Islam, quran or Kaaba. This narrative has been debunked by other historians like Dr. Patricia crone Dr. Robert Hoyland etc. Other academics like Gunther Luling have uncovered the true origins of Quran. Dr. Penn is trying to put forth the thesis that early Islam and Eastern Christianity were distinct religious ideologies, which is untrue. Islam originated as an anti-trinitarian Arab Judeo-Christian sect promoted by Arab empire. The Arab empire formed in the power vaccumm of destroyed Persian empire in early 7th century, and the withdrawal of Byzentine empire from middle-east region..
@@roshlew6994 I agree that we should not trust the Islamic narrative of its early history, however, we don't have many sources that could tell much about the historical Muhammad or early Islam because the Arabs of the time didn't write anything of value for over of 200 years. The book Hagarism still gives a blurry picture of early Islam, even though it is supported by detailed research. We just don't have access to Muhammad except for him being a Messianic Jew.
I am a Muslim and I usually find Western scholars on Islam as lot of conjecturing and guess-work but this Dr. Michael Penn is fascinating individual who will admit when there is no hard evidence - I know many people enjoy blood sport and Islam bashing but we need more people like Dr. Penn! Giving you my first thumps on 😊😊🥰
@@Mr.PhatsVarietyVibesShow Why would I doubt Islam just because Derek, who never read a page of the Quran is intentionally and selectively only interviewing non-Muslims? It is like me interviewing flat earth society members only - will you ''believe'' me over actual evidence?
@@Mr.PhatsVarietyVibesShow I am not saying that it is wrong to have non-Muslims but that is not neutral. Faith doesn't mean some emotional or psychological thing - I am Muslim but I listen to atheist and non-Muslims - I am on Derek's channel listening to all this, for goodness sake.
However - I examine the arguments and I examine the evidence and I allow open discussion. Derek already assumes religion is false because he had personal issues with Christianity, so you know he is not interested in fair analysis.
As for you saying that many people have read the Quran and are not convinced it is true - even the prophet's own uncle didn't believe in Islam and he is the one who raised him and he died as idol worshipper.
So - we always say that guidance comes from God and He will guide whom he wants. There was neo-Nazi in Dutch, who hated Islam with passion but now he converted to Islam. Arnoud van Doorn and Joram van Klaveren are famous example where major haters of Islam become Muslims.
If a person is seeking guidance and understanding then I do believe they will see truth in Islam but if someone is trying to seek division and refutation, then they are not seeking guidance in first place.
Just as I can read your comment with open mind or just from hostile lenses, if I was uncharitable to you, then I would never try to understand your point.
@@Mr.PhatsVarietyVibesShow Excellent points you've raised but let us deal with your major points in three parts and we can get your response:
Part I: The statement that religion is wishful thinking for eternity and that afterlife isn't real - this has been very popular argument made by Christopher Hitchens but are you aware that in may 2021 - the entire human genome was sequenced? That since 1997 - scientist have been able to reproduce exact genes - i.e clone animals that look identical to parent genes? Even in 2019 - in China there were reports about two sister twins being cloned from parent cell. And with forensic science - everyone's exact dna can be connected?
All this shows that even you can easily be reproduced because now it is possible to sequence your entire genes. Meaning after you die - you can be brought back with identical genes from your own genes. This is end of part I.
@@Mr.PhatsVarietyVibesShow Part II: If people can do this with advancement of science and technology - bring back dead people and reproduce identical exact copy of such person - that God will not be able to bring people back?
God obviously has everyone's entire genome - so afterlife is real! You can be brought back to this life just because your exact genes are known. Heck - scientist are even planning of reviving dead species whose genes have been traced.
Part III: That religion is just submission and laws but nothing practical that improve peoples lives - well as you know lying is not allowed or stealing but every year people rob stories, banks or cheat on their spouse and are less likely to do good for others.
I am not saying that without religion a person is self-fish or lies but that religion brings extra reasons to avoid bad and yes, not everyone will obey but abuse authority just as they would have done the same if they were atheist.
In Catholicism there are priest who abuse children but we know this isn't mandated in their own customs but such people would have done this if they were atheist too. Religion doesn't give someone new personality but it improves our flaws.
@@Mr.PhatsVarietyVibesShow Let us focus on the complete genome, that is all the 3 billion gene pairs that a person is made up - as I said, in may 2021 - the human genome project sequenced entire human genome [although not from one individual but collections of people]. What this means is that we can reproduce exact copy of anyone, whose complete genome is known - this is how in 1997 the dolly sheep was cloned from single parent's genome [although three female sheep participated in this process]. I am not saying that we know everything about human genome or complete information as many genome clones had terrible health or biological issues - that is why you assume this is wild fiction.
However, what I am saying that with advancement of technology and better understanding of human genome - give it 100 years - it will be safe to reproduce any dead person as long as his/her complete genome can be sequenced.
The reason I say this is compare first phones from 1850 to modern IPhone 13, so my point is that if humans can do this in near future [although complete genome was achieved in may 2021], then God will obviously know all the genome of all living things - even humans long dead who can't be found nor their genomes sequenced.
There is another thing called genome editing or gene editing, this one doesn't require taking DNA sample from the individual to bring them or their exact look alike back to life but rather edit existing genome, i.e fetus to match their genes, so new birth looks identical to the other person. This causes more ethical dilemma if you ask me.
Third is the cryogenics - which freezes dead bodies - I never argued for this and it is fair to say that it is more fiction than reality. I have just argued from complete genome which was sequenced already in 2021.
If humans can do complete genome sequencing and reproduce exact identical person - then God can do this much better and reproduce everyone who ever lived. That is my argument - resurrection isn't fiction anymore, not after the complete human genome was sequenced in 2021.
Very interesting
Thanks Derek. Love this.
Overall Islamic regimes abused Christians and Jews. Of course he can point out cases of Christians trying to survive and compromising so what. Overall anyone standing up to these regimes would have been killed.
@@philwolves2660 you are right and I have proof from Tabari 923AD th-cam.com/video/KB3Ze5tINQE/w-d-xo.html
@@philwolves2660
That's not what history shows us. History shows is that Christianity oppressed muslims and jews.
@@alonzoharris6730 what do you call this then th-cam.com/video/KB3Ze5tINQE/w-d-xo.html
Is it not true that Mecca was a Jewish city before Islam and after all Jews were either dead or made slaves or deported? That is history do your research ?
I am Syriac Orthodox Christiana myself. I am surprise about so many "false-facts" from Michael Penn. And I only listened until minute 11
What were false facts?
Amazing
👏🙂
very interesting
I am Assyrian church of the east
Wow great discussion, super interesting. This made me really think about the Karaite Jews. There seems to have been a ton of influence from the Muslims to this new Jewish group. Maybe you could find someone who can talk about this interesting interaction between Judaism and Islam.
In TH-cam they have apocalypse of Abraham. Cave of treasures. Targum Sheba. Will make you go 🤔
im shocked reading a lot of comments here.a lot westerners dont even know the connection between these 3 major religion.
@@anyq_CS Everyone on Earth don't know the connection between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, except scholars and bookworms.
Try watch adnan rashid
Can Michael please release your Books on kindle unlimited please
Proud of being a syriac !!
Nakno li kul taye
Why bring non Muslims to talk about Islam. Why not bring Muslim scholars
Because they're not truthful and twist words to fit their believe.
@@dassolosyndikat5113Its like asking Chinese Chef to cook a fine authentic Frence cuisine and please its French consumer.
Because Muslim scholars who challenge Islamic traditions love their children. Infidels who call themselves Muslims will hunt them down and kill them. Christians who die as martyrs for spouting heresy consider it an honor. Real Muslims, know "there is no compulsion in religion."
WE ARE...MYTH VISION!
Another video about syriac people ✌✌
m.th-cam.com/video/arHnn4O8umI/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/ipZ-BoQI-0Y/w-d-xo.html
Meme 😂😂 th-cam.com/video/eqW7_MPP-Mg/w-d-xo.html
With reference to Michael's statement at 47:47, I also use double negatives. Sometimes I can't NOT do it. Ahem!
29:46 historical Mohamed; peace be upon him, is well defined
Several occasions he met with jews and sent letters to all empires asking them submit to Allah
Is the Francesca interview still on?
Check out Digital Hammeradi. There was a recent short interview.
We all know that Muslim men are allowed to marry non-Muslim women, but I guess the real question is, were Muslim women regularly allowed to marry non-Muslim men? (Even today it can be dangerous for Muslim women to date non-Muslim men). 🤔
NO. Muslim women are restricted to marry one muslim man only as one of his Four wives and other slaves (right hand possesses).
Dating is not allowed in Islam. Parents will find partners for their children as fixed marriage. The first choice is marrying the children of siblings meaning "first cousin marriages" which are the majority of Muslims couples until today.
@@thornados4969 right hand posses in time of war where women are left in the battlefield...of the fallen
That helps because thousands of German women were rapped in ww2 and Chinese women by Japanese and conquistadors rapping aztecs ..
To stop that ...
@@rashidaquil5284 In Islam, war is an excuse to get the booty after the robbery and plunder from helpless innocent victims. Look your perphet's examples of sharing booty from stolen properties and enslaved women and girls after freshly murdering the fathers and husbands.
@@rashidaquil5284 Besides, buying slaves are halal in Islam after the conduct of perphet's of slavery business.
""Mohammed had many male and female slaves. He used to buy and sell them, but he purchased more slaves than he sold, especially after God empowered him by His message, as well as after his immigration from Mecca. He once sold one black slave for two. His name was Jacob al-Mudbir. His purchases of slaves were more than he sold. He was used to renting out and hiring many slaves, but he hired more slaves than he rented out."
Zad al-Ma'ad, p. 16
You need to have a chat with Thomas Alexander. What's the evidence this was Islam though? Were they called Saracens, Tayyaye, Maghraye, Believers, Arabs or other names? We're they actually called Muslims
Thank you Derek loved this. 👏
Has a new channel examining Quran. But knows about German Inarah School and speaks English
I’d second this
@@Stardust475
Thomas is ignorant.
What Dr. Michael Penn is saying is nothing new. Günter Lüling (1928-2014) has written about the Syriac Christian Origins of Islam. His book 'Challenge to Islam for Reformation: The Rediscovery and reliable Reconstruction of a comprehensive pre-Islamic Christian Hymnal hidden in the Koran under earliest Islamic Reinterpretations' exposes how Quran is a compilation of pre-islamic Arabic/Syriac/Aramaic literature of the eastern churches used in liturgical purposes. 'The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran: A Contribution to the Decoding of the Language of the Qur'an' by Christoph Luxenberg is Another book exposing the Syriac antecedents of Quran.
Dr. Penn seems to accept the standard islamic narrative on origins of Islam, quran or Kaaba. This narrative has been debunked by other historians like Dr. Patricia crone Dr. Robert Hoyland etc. Other academics like Gunther Luling have uncovered the true origins of Quran. Dr. Penn is trying to put forth the thesis that early Islam and Eastern Christianity were distinct religious ideologies, which is untrue. Islam originated as an anti-trinitarian Arab Judeo-Christian sect promoted by Arab empire. The Arab empire formed in the power vaccumm of destroyed Persian empire in early 7th century, and the withdrawal of Byzentine empire from middle-east region..
The Islamic history are bloody
It's is True we do also have also the
The Ashtiname of Muhammad, also known as the Covenant or Testament (Testamentum
It's interesting to hear haw Christians initially made up the larger part of the population and that attitudes toward them gradually shifted over time. When you consider the possibility that Mohammed's eschatology was directed toward Jerusalem and Palestine, but was subsequently re-orientated to encompass the whole world on the back end of rapid, likely unanticipated levels of success, a shifting picture begins to emerge; and the whole thing starts to make more sense. Great interview, thanks! 😎👍
Dr. Penn seems to accept the standard islamic narrative on origins of Islam, quran or Kaaba. This narrative has been debunked by other historians like Dr. Patricia crone Dr. Robert Hoyland etc. Other academics like Gunther Luling have uncovered the true origins of Quran. Dr. Penn is trying to put forth the thesis that early Islam and Eastern Christianity were distinct religious ideologies, which is untrue. Islam originated as an anti-trinitarian Arab Judeo-Christian sect promoted by Arab empire. The Arab empire formed in the power vaccumm of destroyed Persian empire in early 7th century, and the withdrawal of Byzentine empire from middle-east region..
@@roshlew6994
End of 7th century took Iberian and south of France...
@@rashidaquil5284 yes.. Arab expansion was stopped in southern France ...they were limited to Iberian peninsula for next few centuries until reconquista in 15th century..
The Assyrian Church of the east was massive, destroyed largely by Mongol-Turks who became Muslims and not as interested in Jerusalem in particular like Tamerlane but Arab Muslims did not crack down on them like what happened in later centuries.
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There is a parallel video on this by Thomas Alexander called The Origins of Islam - 1.3 The Koran: The Proto-Koran. It is here on tube.
It is a great channel for anyone to study Islam, Quran with plenty scholarly source materials provided.
@@timetoreason7090
He is troll. There is nothing academic about his channel.
Thanks for introducing Thomas Alexander. It is an awesome channel, highly recommend for those who are searching for historicity of Quran and Mohamed. Subbed.
Thanks great channel. He is critically exposing the history of Quran, and the myth of Mohamed.
This channel had some things u don't hear in Muslims., and I like it
All you have to do is look at how society is working today with Muslims, Jewish, Christian, Hindi, etc in many areas of the world As well as Atheist and other denominations. Not everywhere is such a divided and partisan country as say Iran and America. Even looking at the court of Kublai Khan
A little suggestion to dear Dr. Penn; analyse 'Hadiths' as one source of infos for your study. Might be much more exciting...
The Hadiths are wildly inaccurate.
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There is a reason there aren't more Syriac Aramaic speaking Christians. Many genocides have been committed by people who claimed to know Christ. I do not think the Prophet, peace be upon him, would approve of the Ottoman 's murder of nearly a half million people. Religion doesn't cause war. People try to justify their genocides with it, but that is a perversion of the true teachings of all Abrahamic faiths. From wiki: The Sayfo or the Seyfo (lit. 'sword'), also known as the Assyrian genocide, was the mass slaughter and deportation of Assyrian/Syriac Christians in southeastern Anatolia and Persia's Azerbaijan province by Ottoman forces and some Kurdish tribes during World War I.
Excellent, excellent, excellent. Learning more and more about Islam from you. More of ex-Muslims too please.
No more ex-muslims please
Hearing actual Islamic scholars has shown how different and better and more humble these scholars are from ex-muslims
Thank you for the interesting fact Syriacs eliminated Book of Revelation /What Year was that?
Can you make a collaboratiin video with Thomas Alexander about the Siryac- Aramaic origins of quran?
Or try to reach out to Prof. Sawma expert in Aramaic and Arabic?
Salam, Shalom, Peace n hello from Pakistan.
Kindly explore Islam in Europe and North Africa where coexistence was the norm. Spain had a name for it, ‘ Convivencia’ and Maimonides is a brilliant shinning star!
God / Yahweh / Allah / Elah / Elaha/ bless you for your excellent service to humanity.
Al Muhammad Syed Imam Ali Rab Yasou Al Masih = The Most Praised Lord of The Most High God Jesus Christ. Muhammad and Syed Imam Ali is Jesus Christ disguised in current Islamic narrative.
Shia Al Imam Syed Ali = Followers of The Lord of the Most High.
Please do not forget Ahura Mazda, Vishnu, Zeus, Jupiter and Odin. Praise be!
Well, when I got to 9:45 I said Wow Wow! . . . Hold on, I am like "Are you saying that Most Syriac Christians does not include book of revelation of the New Testament?". This is new for me. I want anyone from Syriac Orthodox church to confirm this for me. Without the book of Revelation, so called christian cannot be a Christian. That book is the bed rock of Christianity.
Soura سورة 48 name is Alfath الفتح, has only 29 Verses آيات
Dr. Peter mentioned Vers 4 and verse 74 and the Soura has only 29 Verses.... Something is Wrong here.
Islamic theology just simple believe in one GOD and do a good deed..by improving your own community to become obidience to GOD and helping each other in need....EX Muslim was a losser expelled from Muslim community because their stupid trait...so they want some aknowledne from other comunity with bringing their hatred toward islam
The title is misleading. Im Syriac christian and don’t want to be associated with Islam like this “the forgotten people of Islam”. We have been persecuted and been victims of genocide (Sayfo 1915 for example) by the muslim majority in the Middle East for centuries (main reason why most syriacs nowadays live in diaspora in Europe and USA). Therefore I’m sure that 99,99% of Syriac christians find your title misleading/offensive.
Im a proud christian (syriac orthodox) and my mother tongue is turoyo/suryoyo (neo-aramaic) but I’m born in Europe, parents from southeastern Turkey. Stop painting us as these “weird non-standard christians”. And the Muslim treated us like crap(not everyone ofc, but too many).
Overall cool video bro. Great seeing the overall American learning about us through your platform. Keep up and good work👍
And I want to point out that Syriac christians are not arabs in any shape or form. We are Assyrians (some say arameans/chaldeans) with our own language, culture, history and traditions. Ofc some speak arabic as their mother tongue but that is an other topic which could I could write a book about.
Amen
@@hmmm7761 that’s true but we can still say we are arabs don’t be ashamed by your country I’m ab Assirian from Iraq I can say I’m Arab also Arabic was before Islam so we spoke the language before the so called prophet came in the 6th century
That's the problem with depictions of your people in the west anymore. People are so obsessed with pandering to Islam that they love to constantly paint Muslims in the best possible light, rather than showing the simple fact that the Syriac Christians were an oppressed second-class group of people under the Muslims. I hate it how people cannot just be honest about history.
Also the stuff with Syriac Christians filling the army and stuff is just wrong. The Arabs were an aloof ethnic-centric group of conquerors, especially during the early stages of Islam they were uninterested in actually converting the conquered peoples. That and Islam has many restrictions against non-Muslims fighting. Probably, what happened, is that Syriac Christians did technical jobs, such as constructing objects that were used for military ventures.
This sounds more like a denominational schism than two separate religions. I expect that the same kind of thing happened in the Hellenic world between early Jews, Christians, and Hellenists.
seventeen minutes in and Dr Penn's story about the Muslim man petitioning the right of his Christian wife's access to her faith's ritualsm Im mean, how did we get it so wrong in the last 50 to 100 years? There were substantial Jewish and Christiaqn communities all across the Arab and non-Arab Muslim world. We really screwed something up.
British colonial tactics has to take a lot of the blame for turning these communities against each other, there was always division and sporadic violence, but the British empire weaponised differences to such an effect degree that the world is still sorting out the mess , and will be for many years to come.
@Apples Mae Kurdish identity wasn't really a thing before Islam, it was a mix of Iranic nomadic tribes mostly in Azerbaijan, Jibal and Fars. If anything Kurds and Amazigh became much more significant after the rise of Islam... and the relations between Christian and Muslim communities was much more than polemics and conflict.
Early jewish, early cristianity, and early Islam is the same religion, that why we believe torah and Bible before they corrupted.
First christians to make contact with Muhammad himself came from Yemen, Nagran's Church... & they kind of debated him as well.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_community_of_Najran#Delegation_to_Muhammad
@@sherifaljeddawy2467 this story was written 200-300 hundred years later. We want a 7th century source regarding this story.
If you want to know what the Quran is saying, according to the modern translations, you may want to refer to "Marvelous Quran" channel, and he uncovers that true Quranic narratives around the Dhul Qarnain, the Jusus in the Quran, the story of the sleepers of the cave etc.
We Syriac, Assyrian and Chaldean Christians, descendants of the ancient Assyrians and Babylonians, still exist. We still speak, read, write and practice our faiths in our mother tongue, the 3000 year old Aramaic language. We suffer displacement from our ancestral homeland which we’ve inhabited for over 6000 because of racial genocide, religious persecution and wars caused by the West. Despite this, we still exist and fight to resist further genocide, cultural appropriation and extinction.
29:46 all of his points are well defined historically
U need to approach scholars from Islamic Universities,
Alexander was not a believer in One God, and The Quran is from Allah and it corrects old & new testament.
I wonder how closely related the Syriac Church is to the Antiochian Orthodox Church. One of the things I miss most since I left Christianity is the ritual, A phtsics professor friend of mine has invited me to her Antiochian church several times and I have really enjoyed it. The music is the best sacred music ever and they have ritual out the wazoo..
Here is a great clip on Syriac Christians ✝️ today th-cam.com/video/e50qiS-IjJM/w-d-xo.html
Did the "old believers" teach no trinity and not eat pork ?Did they get murdered by nikon(? pope innocent 10 in disguise).
Mohammed actually a true original old orthodox christian. When the koran say that christ did not get crucified it occurred in the intensive form of the verb in other words christ did not get forcefully crucified in other words christ willingly went to the cross.Look up website talking about how the koran correctly translated have christian thoughts.
Did prophecy say that the next tsar will purify the church ?(see vladyka theophan). What would you do if I told you that tsar nicholas had secret grandchildren and I decended from nicholas ?
@@theodoremacewko7757 As the peasant saith, "Well, I didn't vote for him." Inheritance has got to be the worst way of picking a leader ever invented.
@@UnwashedPearl "orthodox " prophecy say that the next tsar will get brought to power by THE PEOPLE (see simon the orthodox indian).
let's be honest, politics sucks. politics was the one that put separate lines between Islam, Christian and whatever similar traditions. second point, actually there is no such thing as 'religion' as in religion = sets of belief, the term was created by past western scholars when they started learning about other ways of life other than Christianity, then they put all these 'religions' inside one big box and assume "all religions are the same, just a bunch of people doing dumb things". we miss lots of lots of things by thinking this way.
Ethiopian Christianity is the real forgotten Christianity of Islam.
"Unified Chrtianty?" As a Sourhen Baptist who grew up to be an atheist before becoming Anglo-Catholic, that's hilarious 😂
Muslim (the believer) never saw themselves as distinct group(this is Islam Scholastic view) but crystallization took place later on. This has happened in Hinduism after the Moghul as well as Christianity and to an extent Islam. The pillars of Islam was established but jurisprudence developed much later out of necessity. Early muslim or Arab tradition is oral and not text based. Hence memorisation of text is highly regarded. There is a reason why muslim scholar have affinity to ancient Christianity and generally see the orthodox Christianity in terms of values to be close to Islamic values. Unfortunately, the politicization in recent history have distorted the reality and recent conflict is super imposed on the history. Islamophobic reading of hisotry is a perfect way to sell books and raise profile. It is not surprising the likes of R. Spencer books are widely sold regardless of any critical analysis of the claim, lacking scholarship.
As for the story about Wife asking for euchisit is nothing new to muslim. A famous recorded event is at the time of Caliph Harun Al Rashid (was a general muslim scholar), where his objection to Christian procession be allowed to take place was opposed by muslim Scholars saying 'if companions of prophet Muhammad (PUBH) did not oppose this, you are no position to oppose this practice'. I know of practicing Muslim looking after and protecting other faiths even now in Uzbekistan, UK Muslim look after synagogue etc.
As for building place of Worship is not odd either. This happened even under the so called brutal regine of Auranhajeb (moghul ruler in hindustan). It is during his reign huge quantity of temples were built (often overlooked by revisionist BJP hindvata nationalist). Even in Bengal, muslim regional rulers finance building of temples.
It was the Umar the great Caliph who ordered some Jewish family to be resettled in Jerusalem in order to build the presesne of 3 great faith historical significance to this Jerusalem.
Dhul Qarniyan was a figure but some muslim scholars assumes this refer to Cyrus the great but it only an educated assumption but not Alexander the Great.
Syriac Christian here, I despise this title with a passion, also why didn't you mention the Sayfo genocide?
Islam comes in few flavours. Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic. All three chronologically separated. The final version of this monotheistic religion is Arabic.
Hi I'm a former pentecostal and Messianic now Jewish Torah keeper who hopes to be in weeks in a certain Way invited by you in your channel.
Ethiopia was left out from your list of countries syriaic Christianity
Here is the link th-cam.com/video/vaD0gFNGwnY/w-d-xo.html
In almost all cases Islam is always very tolerant in the beginning and less so as they become a majority. When in a minority it is common sense to not antagonise a conquered population because they may rise up and overthrow you. This is not only within Islam because in Spain the Visigoths were of the Arian heresy when they entered the peninsula and then converted to mainstream Christianity because it was difficult to govern a people who consider you heretics.
Regarding the different religions interacting it happens today in the American hemisphere in places like Mexico and others where there are syncretic beliefs combining native American and Catholic beliefs and in Santeria,Voodoo etc. Some people go to a Catholic Church and then to the Santeria stores without realising that to the Catholic Church they are practicing devil worship at best so Syriac Christians who were not well versed may have thought that Islam was ok and Muhammed was a splendid guy but to the more informed Christian he would be considered a false prophet who denied the divinity of Christ. Likewise there would be Muslims who did not know or believe the parts of the Koran that restrict Jews and Christians to dhimmitude (second class citizenship) .
In conclusion speaking to modern Christians ,Muslims and Jews and even sects within these religions you will find the same situations today but the more informed people are of each religion or sect the more divisive it becomes because there are points that cannot be reconciled in any way shape or form from one to the other because all proclaim the "absolute truth" and there is no such thing as a half absolute truth..
Anthony, Hoyland, Schoemaker, Penn - great array of scholars !
I was thinking the same thing, he needs to interview Ahmad Jallad and christoph Luxenberg
@@myhome9300 Yep, the Inarah School !
What Dr. Michael Penn is saying is nothing new. Günter Lüling (1928-2014) has written about the Syriac Christian Origins of Islam. His book 'Challenge to Islam for Reformation: The Rediscovery and reliable Reconstruction of a comprehensive pre-Islamic Christian Hymnal hidden in the Koran under earliest Islamic Reinterpretations' exposes how Quran is a compilation of pre-islamic Arabic/Syriac/Aramaic literature of the eastern churches used in liturgical purposes. 'The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran: A Contribution to the Decoding of the Language of the Qur'an' by Christoph Luxenberg is Another book exposing the Syriac antecedents of Quran.
Dr. Penn seems to accept the standard islamic narrative on origins of Islam, quran or Kaaba. This narrative has been debunked by other historians like Dr. Patricia crone Dr. Robert Hoyland etc. Other academics like Gunther Luling have uncovered the true origins of Quran. Dr. Penn is trying to put forth the thesis that early Islam and Eastern Christianity were distinct religious ideologies, which is untrue. Islam originated as an anti-trinitarian Arab Judeo-Christian sect promoted by Arab empire. The Arab empire formed in the power vaccumm of destroyed Persian empire in early 7th century, and the withdrawal of Byzentine empire from middle-east region..
You don't know that Anthony is some sort collage to Fred Donner?
But he’s tradin’ aramaic for some SYRIAC AC AC AC AC - render to Cesar the overtime - is that all you get for your money? - St. Anthony’s song by Billy Joseph
He’s not an Islamic scholar
*False equivalence about conquest of america by whites and Islamic futuhat* At 9:00-18:00 You said " it is like the conquest of america and the natives" and this is a bad analogy. Why? Because, it is not similar in one single aspect at all. How so? Because, the conquest of America was not same geography, same language, same abrahamic religions or having same origin and not that american natives were attacking the europeans in their homeland like spain and portugal etc. But arabs shared language, they influenced each other, war being the biggest change and impact. So, even early muslims and muhammed pbuh were under attack of christian arabs.
That said, islamic literature and language use in islam is more moral as well as wars compared to capitalistic killing and calling it colateral damage when it is the loss of millions of lives as the war on Iraq etc. So, muslim word for a legitimate domination is called "fath or futuh" meaning an opening or opening a walled city or civilization to the outer world or to your members. It is a civilizing belief than a conquering power. It is also has a just war before christians got the concept of just war. It is unlawful to entimidate the masses, kill children, elderly people and civilians. Only armies on the fighting stage are allowed. To convert them under the sword is also not allowed. The enviroment like water, trees and animals must not also cut or killed.
All in all, the terms "apostate", "religion", "holy war", "conquest", "infidel" and "prophet" have either different meaning in islam and christianity. In islam, religion is called "deen" meaning "good manners & mindset". Holy war is not Jihad. But jihad is bigger than war. It is daily struggle of both richs and rags. Conquest as said is futuh meaning an opening. Infidel is a christian term projecteed on islam but " irtidad or murtad muharib" can be a warring treacheous person who studied the community then threatening. When it comes to the prophet, in christianity every denomination has folks who call themselves as prophets when they mean saint or priest or minister or even someone who has some prophecies about a future which often turns to be lies because it was not based about revelation or divine inspiration but hallucinations, fears, lies and fantacies. So, to compare islam spread to it's immediate neighbours and cousins to americas conquest and make it equal is basically poor judgement.
At 24:36 - The Quran does not say anything about a second coming of Jesus or Damascus.
In the hadiths it does
@@inquisitivemind007 He states “the Christianity of the Quran” - hence my comment.
Islam source in early Islam was oral source because...they origin from baduin tribe in dessert...they commonly iliterate..and it's known for sanad...in Abbasid era becoming book because lots of Persian converted..
@fajar tiyar Abdul majid
Why weren't hadiths written down during the Umayyad period? Why is there no mention of Mecca in any document in Arabic language for over 95 years after Muhammad's death.
@@paulthomas281even if they were written down they could just have not been preserved until today.
Apparently Koran came from aramaic countries because this book mentions Jews and Christians at the time .
Koran 5:51- O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
Context in war. Lol
@@TeymurKhan571 No war mentioned in the text
Please note, this is a mistranslation. The word used is AWLIA' meaning masters and protectors and this word does not mean friends.
@@emranba-abbad8335 which means you shouldn't live in a foreign country governed by Jews and Christians right? Given they will be your "masters" and protectors
@@emranba-abbad8335 yeah,but context is still the same.No change in context at all
Were the syriacs the same as Assyrian?
The same as modern assyrians, yes, same people. But the syriacs believe in Aramean ancestry and the assyrians assyrian ancestry.
I thought he resembles reverse flash😂