This channel is more informative than GCN and all the other infomercial channels combined. I'm sick of marketing BS and I want more honest stuff like this, made by people who actually know what they are talkning about.
Yea i stoped watching all GCN related channels and started watching this and dylan johnsson (great training channel with only scientific research as backing)
Remember kids heavy aero deep section wheels make you climb faster because aero is king ....... according to an engineer who was aero tech on the worst aero performing Sauber in the teams 40 year history . 🤔
As an engineer, car builder, and cyclist. Nailed it. My gf from the other room " did you write this because I swear this is a rant you would would say " 😂😂
And just like the diving board analogy, because the forward edge of the seat post is not touching the seat post once the seat post hits the rear of the seat tube does that not also act as a fulcrum actually bending the lower part of the seat post forward. This would make it take a longer distance and introduce some vertical movement and therefore abrasion at the upper touch point. Or is that insignificant compared to what is happening at the top?
I wonder if the Red Dot 'best of the best bicycle design award' will be rescinded? I also wonder if the seat post was one of the 'carefully crafted details' that led to the award??? 😬
@@kpizzle1985 I can't find the new Aeroad on the Red Dot website so it must've been even though Canyon are still using it as part of their marketing on the product page.
@@edmundscycles1 actually the red derailiors prior to axs WILL fail due to material pairing issues at a pin (with painful consequences) while the whole hollow aluminum shimano cranks really suck because of bonding issues... The sram ones fail less drastically, most of the time at the interface pedal to crank, with nice little warning squeaking before it happens ;)
If you could make them leak less air, that would be phenomenal. I'm tired of pumping my 5000tl every 3 days. Or I might just give up tubeless altogether. My other wheels with inner tubes leak less, need to pump them once every 2 weeks.
@@veloaddict You’re seriously only inflating butyl tubes every two weeks? I’m pretty certain butyl is porous enough to lose around 10psi over that time even more if you’re using Latex
The quality issues are the reason I found me a custom titanium builder here is the US and had him build me a frame. In the last 7 years I went through 3 carbon frames and feared for my life while riding them. I am totally relaxed now knowing I have a sound bike and a safe bike. This bike is a keeper.
These aren't new problems. And it's not carbon specific. One of the first framesets I built up as a mechanic was a Cannondale CAAD 7 that came with a 700c fork, and largely 700c geometry and a 650c rear triangle. My first carbon bike was a Cervelo P2c and I had to file out carbon to install the seatpost. There were bits of excess, loose carbon with no resin on it. I also had the seatstays crack near my brake twice in 3 years on my R3sl and was shipped a Trek Equinox TTX with a cracked bottom bracket straight out of the box in 2008
You can still buy them and cheap because nobody wants them. Rim wheels are starting to sell at run out prices as well. All good for me / us. I still have my s works roubaix sl4 that I bought new for AUD$850 from Beasley Cycles in Victoria as it was “old” stock
This past year I just picked up a well used 2012 Cannondale SuperSix, and threw Shimano R8000 on it along with some winspace hypers. Now I have a truly world class bicycle for budget money.
To be fair to Canyon and I didn't mention in the video, the design intent could have been a 'simply supported beam' and not a cantilever as discussed. Pinned at the bottom (by the clamp) and with a roller support at the top, which may explain why the clearance is so tight at the frame exit. This would be very ambitious and requires a frictionless top support (at the frame opening) with zero clearance and a sliding mate. Carbon on Carbon + grease wouldn't work. It's positive to hear that Canyon are in discussion with all owners and helping with solutions or refunds.
From my point of view: On all frames should be two clamp mechanism - one at the top of the seat tube and the second one lower like in this case. And maybe moving parts of clamps shold be on one side (at the back or maybe better at front of seat tube / seat stay doing a bigger fricton area).
Instructions for the 2021 Aeroad were to use grease at the seatpost/frame-collar, and carbon paste at the bolted connection. If the frame-collar region was sufficiently protected by a gasket, is there a reason that greased carbon-on-carbon wouldn't work? The coefficient of friction can be quite low, something on the order of 0.12-0.14. In comparison, clean and dry steel-on-steel has a coefficient of friction of 0.5-0.8, whereas greased steel-on-steel is 0.16 WHICH IS HIGHER THAN greased carbon-on-carbon.
because of actual posts on weightweenies blog all the signs are that canyon plans to contruct&deliver a new seatpost (new bike deliveries are actually stopped, refund of cash in advanced was offered in some cases). But if I think about construction/test time + build thousands of them in china + delivery to europe + delivery worldwide to customer ... when the issue will be fixed completely?
Nice video but the calculations and modelling are massively over simplified, and the results can in no way be representative of real life. I had to say something because lots of people seem to be lapping up the science. You absolutely cannot use beam theory (the equation at 5 mins- check Wikipedia if you’re interested) to predict the deflection of that complex part having non-isotropic material properties, complex loading and boundary conditions. It’s not a beam as assumed by beam theory for starters - i.e. it is not much much longer than it is thick, it does not have a uniform cross section, and there will be significant shear (your FE plots show this). You also cannot produce an accurate FE simulation of that part in an hour. You’ve neglected the load transfer from the rider into the seat tube- the seat tube would not be static. It looks like you’ve just fixed the seat tube at zero displacement. The material properties are orthotropic and will most likely vary depending on location - you cannot simply assume a uniform stiffness and Poisson’s ratio everywhere. Also it’s not clear how you’ve set up your loading boundary conditions to simulate a rider. You’ve clearly performed a static analysis whereas going over a bump would be dynamic. Couple this with assumed geometry and skin thicknesses. Your models can simply be in no way representative of real life. I’m not saying your proposed fix is wrong, I’m saying the calculations that led you to the conclusion are far too basic and have far too many assumptions to have any basis in reality. My background is 9 years of FE modelling for a living for the aerospace industry (PhD and post doc) so couldn’t keep my mouth shut sorry! Though I’m happy to be told I’m wrong- I’m an engineering nerd and this stuff interests me.
@@mjlaf01 I agree with you. It is a massive simplification but what is the point of simplifying? Trading accuracy for speed/expense. I would argue that the results form this analysis should not be use to construct a new seat post or solve the problem in any other way. But it's not like they are completely wrong. He wanted to answer the question why there is a problem (and there clearly is one). These simulations give a quick overview of the problem. No one would use this to actually redesign the product. I think the estimated wall thicknesses and unknown fiber-layer layout are already a big uncertainty factors. So there is no point of taking into account all the different effects you mentioned. Sure it would give more accurate results, but it will still be a simplification as anyone other than canyon can only guess (some more educated than others) the material properties. Im sure with your expertise and access to computing power you would be able to make a much more accurate model. But the point of this video is to show where the problem comes from without spending a fortune for hardware and time expense. The model is not displaying something that is completely wrong, it's just not extremely accurate. Would you agree?
The cycling industry and the sycophants who enable it are truly despicable. I'd much rather spend my money on something from ali express. At least if it's shite it only costs a tenth of the price.
We need more of this content. This type of thing... brands needs to get their ass handed to them. Selling things that are made under 200dollars for multiple thousand dollars and then this? And they even try to blame owners? Seriously.... Canyon and other brands with similar issues, needs to be called out if not worst. Thanks for the great content as usual
Trouble is that we need a channel like GCN with their viewer numbers to expose these practices and actually force a shift. I won't be holding my breath.
That customer's seatpost is worn all the way around. The dynamic radius of the seatpost needs to be reduced so greatly, I'm not entirely sure Canyon will be willing to go that route. It's weird that they didn't take a hint from Specialized with the simple Roubaix seatpost design or Trek's over engineered IsoSpeed where the entire ST flexes around a pivot.
Thank you so very much for this, clear, eloquently delivered and spot on. Aeroad WAS on my list of dream bikes to buy this summer but is no longer until I’m assured this is addressed.
Great overview of the situation Peak Talk. When the new model Canyon was released I rushed out and bought another rim brake older model. Its not the latest model but its much lighter and I am sure just as aerodynamic as any latest disc brake Canyon. Thanks to people like yourself I have learned quite a lot about the bike industry and all the BS that goes with it. Thanks
@peak torque excellent video. I’m not from an engineering background but the way you break things down is so easy to understand. Thanks for all of these in-depth explanations dude and keep doing what you do.
thank you for confirming my drunk uncle’s rants, it’s not always easy to hear everything he says but both of you are doing an incredible service to the cycling community with your knowledge albeit different styles
Superb video... what a sensible, level headed and truthful video. Please dude, start making frames.... I’ve been considering a new bike and shocked by the crap engineering and astronomical prices. In 2020 I was gonna get a Canyon Aeroad and joined some Canyon groups abs was shocked seeing all the complaints and issues. It’s now a minefield! I’m tempted to Factor ax at least they make their own frames and seem to have some good engineering or maybe Giant which just seem to be solid and dependable
I am so glad I have found your vids. You are so, so right. I have been a self-employed bike mechanic for over 10 years and my work in the trade goes back more than 30 years. In the last 5 I have seen better design and production in the average cheap supermarket bike than I see in top flight road bikes. I have an engineers brain but not the training but I could see before you explained anything the idiocy of Canyons design. Not only will it self destruct but it’s lack of dial-ability will make the flexion right for only, perhaps, 1 in 100 riders. Far better to have, for example a (selectable) elastomer below the cradle. There is so much crap and bad practice in the trade driven by the perceived need for lightness and aero and people’s obsession with owning the ‘new best thing’. The manufacturers need to supply bike oil not snake oil.
Thanks for all you do. I love your analytics. I am a simple minded electrical engineer/cyclist, and very much enjoy your analyses. Keep up the good work, please.
Good rant... been there, done that on more than a few items. Being an old design engineer, I am equally amazed at the level of some design work we see.
When I saw this launch I dismissed it out of hand as more canyon garbage. The way they explained it there was no mention of the upper constraint but you're absolutely right there is no way this could have ever worked.
Thanks, I have seriously been considering this as my next bike until now and as you said I am one of those people who has to save for two years if I want something like that.
Marketing requirement of a new frame every 1 or 2 years and the need to always show some new feature is a recipe for disaster. People just need a simple, well-made, safe to ride, durable frame without any funny details. Bike frames should "just work".
@@brianbolger6313 That is not true. Material is secondary, as long as it fulfils the requirement of weight, ride feel and durability I do not care about what material is my frame made of. There are really well engineered carbon frames and really shitty aluminum/titanium frames out there. My GF's Caad12 killed a BB bearing in less than 5k kms...
But Andras, that would mean that people wouldn't but a new bike of them every couple of year. The bike industry wants gradual "improvements" and gradual price increase, so people keep buying bikes, and keep buying more and more expensive bikes. Not like televisions from the 90ties that just kept working and didn't break down, good for the customers, bad for the television industry.
@@cyclingmilan Exactly. People should buy less shit anyways, if we want to have a chance of saving this planet... And there always be the ones who want the newest bikes, just because they are new. For them, a new paint scheme is enough incentive.
Great video! Love this straight forward and explaining all the problems of corporations that is all about money and doesn't do proper testing of the bike/frameset!
Can't wait for a "MacGyver" brand carbon frame supplied with a roll of Duck Tape. It's a constantly improving industry. We've gone from Coke cans to prevent seat post slippage to caulking to prevent wear and water infiltration.
Everybody, you’re getting it all wrong, the product works as intended. It’s just the wrong ‘target audience’ is buying this seatpost. It’s actually designed for light bike riding done in spring-summer, from your house to your local bike cafe!
I was told around a year ago by the friend of a Canyon employee that the first production run of this new model had been fully completed before "a critical design issue" was discovered and that was the reason the release was so delayed. Fully expect that this might have been it!
If you look at Canyon web you can't order right now any of the New Aeroad, be it CFR, SLX,SL in any frame size. Do you think it's because of the issue mentioned in the video?
Dang you hit the spot dead on. Been following the Aeroad drama and that cap solution they have is bogus as well as putting the blame on the rider. Subscribed as soon as I finished watching your video👍
This video introduced me to this problem. Within 10 seconds my brain was like: more clearance, higher second moment of area and where tf is a proper seal. I'm a mechanical engineer myself. I've been mountain biking for a while but I just started with road cycling recently. I've been watching your channel for some time (great videos) and I was surprised to find nearly no other that reviews bikes on a basic level of engineering. I find it stunning that in the bike industry marketing is not based on science and facts but sloppy non sense terms. I don't understand how this issue ended up at the end user. Where is QC in this issue, they must have noticed this in testing? Maybe the seat post supplier messed up with the tolerances, but this seems more like a design flaw to me. This is less than basic level of engineering!! You would fail your exams with this kind of design flaw. I'm surprised how the bike industry often lacks a basic sense of engineering.
AND what about IF/WHEN these fail and cause SERIOUS bodily injury??? It’s also why I don’t trust disc brake designs for road bikes...this industry has PROVED time after time they have NO CLUE WHAT engineering is. (I’m an on-site QC/Super intendent for DOD construction 🚧 and am REQUIRED to validate designs/work with a 3rd party QC corps...)
Agree on the design principles. Had to remove the headset bearing from an ultimate CF SL 2015, which was a nightmare. No clearance to properly remove it.
I think he´s why better than Hambini. I think that Hambini loses a lot of his credibility because of his language. If i whant to hear someone swear and rant about shit I visit my grandad
16:54 I do sometimes think that tyre tolerances could be better too, given the differences in fit across different brands but I'm absolutely with you on everything else!
Respectfully: 2:41; I would posit that the new "s" post design's purpose would not only be to fit tighter, but to also have less (almost no) flex at the bottom section (frame interface to clamp) in order to alleviate rubbing. The top of the "s" would be the flexible section. This design would be constrained by the existing frame and work similarly to a post clamped higher. It is probably the only realistic solution without changing the frame. Anyway good video and thank you for keeping it civil. It does make one wonder how the present design made it out of the design review.
Totally agree with your points about the bike industry at the end. I make quite a decent salary and can save up for a bike in a few weeks but that doesn't mean we deserve crap. This is the bike industry looking at their user base and going "high income, free spenders, let's maximize this". The point about group sets at the end was on point. These tolerances do exist in the industry. I'm not a mechanical engineer but I'd venture to guess that it costs Shimano to make a DA Di2 groupset more than canyon pays for each of these frames.
appreciate your expertise and clear words, no bashing. i'm watching hambini for a long time, in the beginning his cursing was kind of funny but nowadays it's annoying and way too much. so it's refreshing to see your video, it shows growth how you act. thanks for the quality, keep it up!
I intend to buy a Darimo seatpost for my Ostro. Worked well on my Sworks SL6 - as it's so light, it flexes slightly more and gives a more comfortable ride. No need for complex clamping systems.
I don’t work at Canyon but it is pretty easy to figure out what happened: 1. Owners/investors tell management that the next bike needs to be more aero, lighter, and more comfortable 2. Managers pass the info to engineers 3. Engineers come back with a viable solution 4. Managers tell them that it isn’t aero/light/comfortable enough 5. Engineers say it isn’t possible without sacrificing one or the other 6. Managers say that isn’t acceptable, probably with some line like “if you can’t figure it out I’ll find someone that can” 7. Engineers come back with this solution. Managers and investors are happy. 8. Engineer sends memo saying something like “this solution carries the risk of creaking or other issues while under load that may result in massive warranty claims” 9. Engineer gets fired, managers instruct everyone to ignore e-mail Or something like that
Hello Mr. P Torque. There are a lot of assumptions here rendering the outputs little more than pretty pictures but you get kudos for doing the fundamentals and I concur with your diagnosis and remedy.
Any chance someone can send a post over to Raoul Luescher for him to dissect? We’d have the holy trinity of Hambini, Peak Torque and Luescher Teknik all over Canyon.
It doesn't need cutting up. The layup is the least of the worries. Basic beam bending theory is where they need to start. Year one of nearly ALL Mech Eng, Aero Eng, Automotive Eng, Civil Eng, Structural Eng degrees across the globe.
@@PeakTorque Too be fair Solid mechanics was a year 2 course at my university so canyons engineers probably would have dropped out before getting to it.
Another fantastic video--keep up the GREAT work. Not surprised to see you and Hambini are again in total agreement--chalk up another one to science. For some reason, Hambini has removed his Aeroad review from last week, but, he disclosed on Feb 16th, "There have been several questions regarding the Hambini TH-cam channel take downs of the videos. A page explaining the on goings and a general wider look will be displayed shortly."
The Roubaix had this type of system, low clamp and a higher frame opening. They used a rubber grommet, and the final exit clearance is massive in every direction. Round post.
Would be interesting to know what you think about the recessed seat clamp of the Rose Backroad CF. To me their solution seems like it would also work for the Canyon Aeroad.
I like my carbon dual-boinger, but honestly, nothing ever rode better than my handmade steel frame on roads. A 20 year old racer might prefer an aero super-stiffy, but a Pegoretti or Vanilla or Sachs or is glorious.
Thank you for this video and rant. It is a absolute shame that they produce shit like this and hopefully engineers like you and Hambini can get this industry producing the product they should and with aero/automotive tolerances as I don’t believe it’s unexceptionable to expect that. I’m a custom home builder with physics and engineering education and this industry appals me, but love the sport. Again thank you for ranting the truth
As a graphic designer not engineer, I actually spot that seatpost weakness the very time it was introduced. Kinda surprised that the frame was not the one that actually cracking since it bears a lot of motion and pressure.
Thank you for your great analysis on this and many other aspects of the cycling industry's products. You really do an excellent job at it. It is very sad when someone with limited mechanical knowledge gets misdirected by this industry to purchase overpriced and hyped products. It makes me sad when some young rider works had to save up money to purchase substandard cycling gear and if you warn them about it they just argue back defining their choice because they are so brainwashed. The cycling industry's Koolaid is very sweet indeed.
The Ultimate CF has the basic same design idea, but with a round seatpost and a rubber grommet, and that has worked fine for many years. Really strange that Canyon didn't think that the new design would be a problem in real life. By the way, the top tube is "flat" and the seatpost part of the frame doesn't "stick up", so your rubber skirt wouldn't work as shown. The Specialized Roubaix has a similar desing as the Aeroroad but with a rubber grommet. It also looks like the clamp is closer to the top, so less movement to compensate.
Smaller seatpost with an elastomeric sleeve to cushion and damp the seatpost to seat tube intreface, done.. In the meantime just put some vinyl electrical tape around the seatpost at the frame entry area. That clamp at the bottom of the seatpost is asking for trouble.
Those vids/magzines spluttering anything to put a dollar in their pocket and they now want you to subscribe to watch more sponsored content with more splutting! So they get paid from both sides of the fence. Just Greed!
A business idea for @Peak Torque: You buy test examples of the best open-mould Chinese carbon frames and run engineering tests on them. Once you have found ones that meet your standards you can buy them in bulk, monitor the quality, and then sell them on to the public for a tidy profit. It would be a win-win for everyone but the big brands. You would make a profit, the public would get a quality frame they could trust while saving thousands, and we could all stick it to the big brands who are price gauging the cycling community with over-priced and under-engineered frames.
Good idea, but it is probably not a good look for the channel. Immediately when you start doing testing on the products you sell, you run into a huge conflict of interests.
Great assessment and fix. Understanding that this video is a bit old, you wouldn’t happen to know if there was a re-design or just a revision for the 2023’s where this was resolved? Or are we to expect the same issues? Thanks.
Thanks 🙏 for pointing out the ridiculous behavior of bike manufacturers! It’s going on for years now and they just wanna extract more and more money from their customers! I highly appreciate channels like Luescher,Hambini and yours. In the end i have to solve this shitload of problems when i’m setting up these frames for the customers! In 1985 i had a Vitus Carbone Kevlar 9 built up as a time trial bike-the first ever carbon frame-carbon tubes bonded to aluminum lugs-this amazing frame still runs today with no issues whatsoever - due to french aerospace engineering standards. Let’s force them to do their homework! 🤙
Amen to this! At this point, I might just either buy my next carbon frame straight from a factory and pay what it is actually worth whilst receiving arguably more consistent quality. OR I just keep on doing what I did with my gravel bike - Have someone build me a nice steel frame in just the right size at less than half the price that Canyon et al ask for their stuff.
Quality bikes have never come from large scale manufacturers. Until recently most of the bikes in the pro pelotón where flying false flags- in the eighties for example the French artisans at Cyfac made what sometimes seemed like the bikes of half the field, tho usually none bore the name. Nothings changed except the prices. If you go for carbon look at Cyfac, 51Bikes, Festka etc. Yeah they'll cost as much as a top end Canyon or Cervelo or whatever but at least you'll be paying for craftsmanship not marketing.
Nice job on the mechanical analysis. While I share your frustration with the bike industry's lack of proper design, manufacturing, and quality control, making a "plastic" frame correctly is far from easy! Complex composite shapes and layups are subject to springback upon cooling after cure. This can often lead to distorted parts if not properly accounted for or designed/manufactured. Given the tolerance requirements in a few key areas of a bike frame, I am not surprised to see out of tolerance bottom brackets or misaligned head tubes (to name a few). Employing the methods necessary to address these issues requires more costly and time consuming manufacturing processes. Hambini has shown multiple times, some (many?) manufacturers do a very poor job of designing and manufacturing a quality product that meets the required standards. As a composites engineer (not in the bike industry!), I can confirm building a composite frame correctly is not easy...especially at the rates/volumes most brands produce. Not making excuses, just pointing out the industry's unwillingness to do things right in order to maximize profit. Why do you think virtually no composite frames undergo Non-Destructive Inspection (NDI)? There are some relatively good manufacturers, you just have to do your homework and not buy into the latest marketing BS from the hottest brands.
Thanks for this very good information I am at the point to choose between a Canyon Aeroad and a Factor Ostro and I would really appreciate you opinion on this
Peak torque: Give the money to shimano and get them to make the frames That might be the real and long term answer to this fuckery from the big bike brands
True about the difference between automotive and cycling engineering levels.. bearing and piston ring tolerances in engines can handle 300,000km of very varied operating conditions with imperfect maintenance and still as a system pass rigorous emissions standards.. and they are sacrificial wear surfaces! Thanks to you, lutscher teknik and hambini the shortlist for next frame got very short.. Look, Time or Giant :L
The Aeroad used to be my dream bike around two years ago, but then there were the problems with frame quality raised by Hambini last year, and now this seat post problem with their new models. These problems have really shaken my confidence in Canyon, as it has all but proven Hambini correct regarding Canyon's terrible engineering. I wasn't completely deterred by the frame quality because that was about manufacturing tolerances (e.g. could be the Chinese frame manufacturer's fault, as was the case with the Hambini video where a customer found the QC sheet that was signed off even though the frame had failed QC). However, the seat post problem is about engineering design, which is squarely the Canyon engineers' fault. The shipping rates to Australia are also crazy (as per usual with most things that are shipped to Australia), so I don't think I will ever consider buying Canyon at all now. The numbers just don't add up.
I don't know what brand to buy anymore. I had a seatpost problem on my 2009 Madone. They never solved my problem, despite their lifetime warranty for the first owner. The seatpost goes over the frame and is secured with a clamping system with two screws from the back. Every season one of the bolts would brake. Cycling friends called me the canon, because of the sound the braking bolt made when braking during a ride. Almost had an accidant because of this problem. There were more people that had the same problem back then, but Trek did just ignore the problem. I had to take my loss and throw away a 2000 euro frame. They changed the way they clamp their seatpost the next year by the way. Never a Trek for me again. Now I can add Canyon to my "never buy" list I see.
Have you seen the new design for the seat post? Someone leaked the patent photo as seen on the Cycling Tips webpage. What is your opinion on it? Cheers!
Great video mate. Meanwhile, one year later, they released the grommet but still no where near a proper and final fix. Ridiculous. Even with the grommet the design choice of having a moving seat post in a carbon frame just seems bonkers. Ps: you had a load case for a heavy rider, but what about compliance for a light rider? Would the stiffer post still flex enough?
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This channel is more informative than GCN and all the other infomercial channels combined. I'm sick of marketing BS and I want more honest stuff like this, made by people who actually know what they are talkning about.
Yea i stoped watching all GCN related channels and started watching this and dylan johnsson (great training channel with only scientific research as backing)
Remember kids heavy aero deep section wheels make you climb faster because aero is king ....... according to an engineer who was aero tech on the worst aero performing Sauber in the teams 40 year history . 🤔
Bro GCN is owned by the same mother company who owns Discovery Channel and ESPN.
Yes, their goal is to make many by advertising their sponsors.
dont have a tv or watch discorvery so
eventually when any channel gets big sponsors end up dictating content
As an engineer, car builder, and cyclist. Nailed it.
My gf from the other room " did you write this because I swear this is a rant you would would say " 😂😂
I would totally buy a Shimano frame.
My first bike was a "Shimano" :D At that time they sold cheap chinese bikes branded as Shimano on the frame in my country.
I'd totally buy a Hope frame 😉
Infact shimano ordered Pardus Robin Sport frames for their neutral service bike, replacing Mavic's neutral service with their Canyon Ultimate.
Not sure id buy the Lotus one tho, as beautiful as they are Lotus normally stands for "lot's of trouble, usually serious"
They do made shimano frame, loooong time ago. its a vintage now and made by some other japanese frame manuf if i'm not mistaken.
Its like designing a flexible diving board, then adding a stack of bricks under it half way a long. What the hell?
And just like the diving board analogy, because the forward edge of the seat post is not touching the seat post once the seat post hits the rear of the seat tube does that not also act as a fulcrum actually bending the lower part of the seat post forward. This would make it take a longer distance and introduce some vertical movement and therefore abrasion at the upper touch point. Or is that insignificant compared to what is happening at the top?
I wonder if the Red Dot 'best of the best bicycle design award' will be rescinded? I also wonder if the seat post was one of the 'carefully crafted details' that led to the award??? 😬
I wouldn't use that analogy.
The Canyon engineers would probably forget to fill the pool.
yup.
@@kpizzle1985 I can't find the new Aeroad on the Red Dot website so it must've been even though Canyon are still using it as part of their marketing on the product page.
I appreciated the exclusion of Sram from the list of good groupset manufactures.
You mean the smaller gears and throw away power meter?
@@waynosfotos I think he is talking about reliability and quality/tolerance issues and not about strategic design decisions.
TBF the shifters and derailleur are OK it's the cranks that are shocking .
@@edmundscycles1 what about Shimano cranks delaminating?
@@edmundscycles1 actually the red derailiors prior to axs WILL fail due to material pairing issues at a pin (with painful consequences) while the whole hollow aluminum shimano cranks really suck because of bonding issues... The sram ones fail less drastically, most of the time at the interface pedal to crank, with nice little warning squeaking before it happens ;)
Your speech really needs to be picked up by the cycling media 👏
its 2021 this IS cycling media 😁
@@PeakTorque Fair, fair. Let's hope your peers take the same tone and not just Hambini, his video will likely be banned if it hasn't been already 😂
@@kpizzle1985 Hambini video still there. probably canyon not like flo.
Yeah, something GCN would never do.
@@shhhdontshout yep, a quick search of all the usual sites reveals the typical glowing reviews, no update or coverage of this issue.
If this was a car there would be a complete recall. We as consumers seem to have no protection where the bike industry is concerned
th-cam.com/video/SiB8GVMNJkE/w-d-xo.html
Also, I was driving around with an airbag that if in a crash would have blown shrapnel through my brains and that took 10 years to get recalled.
Engineering of Continental tires! Thanks for the shout out! We love to provide you with reliable rubber!
I 1000% entrust my ASS 2 your engineering EVERY time I fly down these N. Italian 🇮🇹 alpine roads!!! Thank you!!!!
Your car tires also wrap my 17” rims as well ;-)
@Jan-Niklas Jünger. Now if you could just build a little more longevity into the GP5000 clincher I’d be a happy bunny.
If you could make them leak less air, that would be phenomenal. I'm tired of pumping my 5000tl every 3 days. Or I might just give up tubeless altogether. My other wheels with inner tubes leak less, need to pump them once every 2 weeks.
@@veloaddict You’re seriously only inflating butyl tubes every two weeks? I’m pretty certain butyl is porous enough to lose around 10psi over that time even more if you’re using Latex
The prices for many carbon frames are simply outrageous given how many quality issues we're seeing across the industry.
The quality issues are the reason I found me a custom titanium builder here is the US and had him build me a frame. In the last 7 years I went through 3 carbon frames and feared for my life while riding them. I am totally relaxed now knowing I have a sound bike and a safe bike. This bike is a keeper.
that's why you should start ordering direct from factory in china, I've got a seraph wilier cento10air replica and it's as good as the real thing.
@@albr4 how can you reach those companys? would love to know who did my carbon frame on my bergamont.
These aren't new problems. And it's not carbon specific. One of the first framesets I built up as a mechanic was a Cannondale CAAD 7 that came with a 700c fork, and largely 700c geometry and a 650c rear triangle. My first carbon bike was a Cervelo P2c and I had to file out carbon to install the seatpost. There were bits of excess, loose carbon with no resin on it. I also had the seatstays crack near my brake twice in 3 years on my R3sl and was shipped a Trek Equinox TTX with a cracked bottom bracket straight out of the box in 2008
"Shimano engineers, Campy engineers - I pity them. They have to hang these quality parts on something that is a bag of crap" LOL nailed it
From a consumer value standpoint, carbon bikes peaked in 2013 when you could get a 7.5kg bike with non-proprietary seatpost and cockpit for £1.5k.
You can still buy them and cheap because nobody wants them. Rim wheels are starting to sell at run out prices as well. All good for me / us.
I still have my s works roubaix sl4 that I bought new for AUD$850 from Beasley Cycles in Victoria as it was “old” stock
This past year I just picked up a well used 2012 Cannondale SuperSix, and threw Shimano R8000 on it along with some winspace hypers. Now I have a truly world class bicycle for budget money.
yup
@@in4merATP how much total did u pay?
To be fair to Canyon and I didn't mention in the video, the design intent could have been a 'simply supported beam' and not a cantilever as discussed. Pinned at the bottom (by the clamp) and with a roller support at the top, which may explain why the clearance is so tight at the frame exit. This would be very ambitious and requires a frictionless top support (at the frame opening) with zero clearance and a sliding mate. Carbon on Carbon + grease wouldn't work. It's positive to hear that Canyon are in discussion with all owners and helping with solutions or refunds.
From my point of view: On all frames should be two clamp mechanism - one at the top of the seat tube and the second one lower like in this case. And maybe moving parts of clamps shold be on one side (at the back or maybe better at front of seat tube / seat stay doing a bigger fricton area).
Instructions for the 2021 Aeroad were to use grease at the seatpost/frame-collar, and carbon paste at the bolted connection. If the frame-collar region was sufficiently protected by a gasket, is there a reason that greased carbon-on-carbon wouldn't work? The coefficient of friction can be quite low, something on the order of 0.12-0.14. In comparison, clean and dry steel-on-steel has a coefficient of friction of 0.5-0.8, whereas greased steel-on-steel is 0.16 WHICH IS HIGHER THAN greased carbon-on-carbon.
because of actual posts on weightweenies blog all the signs are that canyon plans to contruct&deliver a new seatpost (new bike deliveries are actually stopped, refund of cash in advanced was offered in some cases). But if I think about construction/test time + build thousands of them in china + delivery to europe + delivery worldwide to customer ... when the issue will be fixed completely?
Nice video but the calculations and modelling are massively over simplified, and the results can in no way be representative of real life. I had to say something because lots of people seem to be lapping up the science.
You absolutely cannot use beam theory (the equation at 5 mins- check Wikipedia if you’re interested) to predict the deflection of that complex part having non-isotropic material properties, complex loading and boundary conditions. It’s not a beam as assumed by beam theory for starters - i.e. it is not much much longer than it is thick, it does not have a uniform cross section, and there will be significant shear (your FE plots show this).
You also cannot produce an accurate FE simulation of that part in an hour. You’ve neglected the load transfer from the rider into the seat tube- the seat tube would not be static. It looks like you’ve just fixed the seat tube at zero displacement. The material properties are orthotropic and will most likely vary depending on location - you cannot simply assume a uniform stiffness and Poisson’s ratio everywhere. Also it’s not clear how you’ve set up your loading boundary conditions to simulate a rider. You’ve clearly performed a static analysis whereas going over a bump would be dynamic. Couple this with assumed geometry and skin thicknesses. Your models can simply be in no way representative of real life. I’m not saying your proposed fix is wrong, I’m saying the calculations that led you to the conclusion are far too basic and have far too many assumptions to have any basis in reality. My background is 9 years of FE modelling for a living for the aerospace industry (PhD and post doc) so couldn’t keep my mouth shut sorry! Though I’m happy to be told I’m wrong- I’m an engineering nerd and this stuff interests me.
@@mjlaf01 I agree with you. It is a massive simplification but what is the point of simplifying? Trading accuracy for speed/expense. I would argue that the results form this analysis should not be use to construct a new seat post or solve the problem in any other way. But it's not like they are completely wrong. He wanted to answer the question why there is a problem (and there clearly is one). These simulations give a quick overview of the problem. No one would use this to actually redesign the product. I think the estimated wall thicknesses and unknown fiber-layer layout are already a big uncertainty factors. So there is no point of taking into account all the different effects you mentioned. Sure it would give more accurate results, but it will still be a simplification as anyone other than canyon can only guess (some more educated than others) the material properties. Im sure with your expertise and access to computing power you would be able to make a much more accurate model. But the point of this video is to show where the problem comes from without spending a fortune for hardware and time expense. The model is not displaying something that is completely wrong, it's just not extremely accurate. Would you agree?
The cycling industry and the sycophants who enable it are truly despicable. I'd much rather spend my money on something from ali express. At least if it's shite it only costs a tenth of the price.
trrruuuu
If the shite fails and you bite the dirt at least you have saved money to repair your teeth. Nice thinking 👍
@@cularu1 and that's happened how many times ? Bet at least 90% of the stuff you ride on/in is made in China.
The aliexpress frame I bought for $500 came with a rubber seatpost grommet. 1/10th.
@@abedfo88 if you like to play Russian roulette it's your problem
We need more of this content.
This type of thing... brands needs to get their ass handed to them. Selling things that are made under 200dollars for multiple thousand dollars and then this? And they even try to blame owners? Seriously.... Canyon and other brands with similar issues, needs to be called out if not worst.
Thanks for the great content as usual
Trouble is that we need a channel like GCN with their viewer numbers to expose these practices and actually force a shift. I won't be holding my breath.
No, we don't - it's making the theory to the particular case when it should be COMMON - physics laws are common.
That customer's seatpost is worn all the way around. The dynamic radius of the seatpost needs to be reduced so greatly, I'm not entirely sure Canyon will be willing to go that route. It's weird that they didn't take a hint from Specialized with the simple Roubaix seatpost design or Trek's over engineered IsoSpeed where the entire ST flexes around a pivot.
yeah, you are right, there are not insignificant forces on the sides too and that would mean making the seatpost excessively thin
Trek IsoSpeed on the 2016-2018 model is the best one they made. A simple idea brilliantly executed! Works really well...
Thank you so very much for this, clear, eloquently delivered and spot on. Aeroad WAS on my list of dream bikes to buy this summer but is no longer until I’m assured this is addressed.
Great overview of the situation Peak Talk. When the new model Canyon was released I rushed out and bought another rim brake older model. Its not the latest model but its much lighter and I am sure just as aerodynamic as any latest disc brake Canyon. Thanks to people like yourself I have learned quite a lot about the bike industry and all the BS that goes with it. Thanks
@peak torque excellent video. I’m not from an engineering background but the way you break things down is so easy to understand. Thanks for all of these in-depth explanations dude and keep doing what you do.
Awesome video as always! Unfortunately, Canyon isn’t the only one with crap frames... That 5 minute rant at the end was really on point.
There is a Simpsons episode where Homer buys a car, it winds up being a massive gimmicky piece of shit. It's called the "Canyonero...."
Homer buys the ladies version. Has a lipstick holder instead of a cigarette lighter. Lenny and Carl make fun of him
Unexpected fires are a matter for the courts, canyonerooooo
thank you for confirming my drunk uncle’s rants, it’s not always easy to hear everything he says but both of you are doing an incredible service to the cycling community with your knowledge albeit different styles
Superb video... what a sensible, level headed and truthful video. Please dude, start making frames.... I’ve been considering a new bike and shocked by the crap engineering and astronomical prices. In 2020 I was gonna get a Canyon Aeroad and joined some Canyon groups abs was shocked seeing all the complaints and issues. It’s now a minefield! I’m tempted to Factor ax at least they make their own frames and seem to have some good engineering or maybe Giant which just seem to be solid and dependable
Your voice is an important one. Thank you
I am so glad I have found your vids. You are so, so right. I have been a self-employed bike mechanic for over 10 years and my work in the trade goes back more than 30 years. In the last 5 I have seen better design and production in the average cheap supermarket bike than I see in top flight road bikes. I have an engineers brain but not the training but I could see before you explained anything the idiocy of Canyons design. Not only will it self destruct but it’s lack of dial-ability will make the flexion right for only, perhaps, 1 in 100 riders. Far better to have, for example a (selectable) elastomer below the cradle. There is so much crap and bad practice in the trade driven by the perceived need for lightness and aero and people’s obsession with owning the ‘new best thing’. The manufacturers need to supply bike oil not snake oil.
I love this channel! Hard talk with proof; comparison between bike manufacturers and groupset manufacturers was fantastic.
"'Member when you can switch seatposts with your mates?"
"Yeah I 'member! That was awesomeee."
Member berries I member
I member too!
Thanks for all you do. I love your analytics. I am a simple minded electrical engineer/cyclist, and very much enjoy your analyses. Keep up the good work, please.
So glad you and one or two others are casting proper engineering eyes over the frames. Keep it up fella 👍
Good rant... been there, done that on more than a few items. Being an old design engineer, I am equally amazed at the level of some design work we see.
When I saw this launch I dismissed it out of hand as more canyon garbage.
The way they explained it there was no mention of the upper constraint but you're absolutely right there is no way this could have ever worked.
I wish I had a G multiplier in my monthly salary :(
r/pennystocks
Thanks, I have seriously been considering this as my next bike until now and as you said I am one of those people who has to save for two years if I want something like that.
Marketing requirement of a new frame every 1 or 2 years and the need to always show some new feature is a recipe for disaster. People just need a simple, well-made, safe to ride, durable frame without any funny details. Bike frames should "just work".
Basically, bike frames shouldn't be made from carbon Fibre!
@@brianbolger6313 That is not true. Material is secondary, as long as it fulfils the requirement of weight, ride feel and durability I do not care about what material is my frame made of. There are really well engineered carbon frames and really shitty aluminum/titanium frames out there. My GF's Caad12 killed a BB bearing in less than 5k kms...
but then again if you do a perfect frame there is no reason for all the n+1 dudes to buy a new bike every year.
But Andras, that would mean that people wouldn't but a new bike of them every couple of year. The bike industry wants gradual "improvements" and gradual price increase, so people keep buying bikes, and keep buying more and more expensive bikes.
Not like televisions from the 90ties that just kept working and didn't break down, good for the customers, bad for the television industry.
@@cyclingmilan Exactly. People should buy less shit anyways, if we want to have a chance of saving this planet... And there always be the ones who want the newest bikes, just because they are new. For them, a new paint scheme is enough incentive.
Great video! Love this straight forward and explaining all the problems of corporations that is all about money and doesn't do proper testing of the bike/frameset!
Also that sealant idea's pretty good since it'll act as a sort of bump stop as well!
I am so so happy that I bought the old Aeroad. Love the channel.
Well said! Returning my Aeroad this week sadly
Can't wait for a "MacGyver" brand carbon frame supplied with a roll of Duck Tape.
It's a constantly improving industry.
We've gone from Coke cans to prevent seat post slippage to caulking to prevent wear and water infiltration.
Everybody, you’re getting it all wrong, the product works as intended. It’s just the wrong ‘target audience’ is buying this seatpost.
It’s actually designed for light bike riding done in spring-summer, from your house to your local bike cafe!
I was told around a year ago by the friend of a Canyon employee that the first production run of this new model had been fully completed before "a critical design issue" was discovered and that was the reason the release was so delayed.
Fully expect that this might have been it!
If you look at Canyon web you can't order right now any of the New Aeroad, be it CFR, SLX,SL in any frame size. Do you think it's because of the issue mentioned in the video?
Great and easy-to-follow review, thank you. Is there a somewhat similar "aero" road bike you would (unofficially) recommend?
Dang you hit the spot dead on. Been following the Aeroad drama and that cap solution they have is bogus as well as putting the blame on the rider.
Subscribed as soon as I finished watching your video👍
Bow down to the ground for content like this. Keep up!
Greets from a fellow engineer and cyclist!
There's a plethora of custom steel frame builders out there! Support your local frame builders ✌
Great vid as always ! Now I'm waiting for the dropped seat-stays's video :D
This video introduced me to this problem. Within 10 seconds my brain was like: more clearance, higher second moment of area and where tf is a proper seal.
I'm a mechanical engineer myself. I've been mountain biking for a while but I just started with road cycling recently.
I've been watching your channel for some time (great videos) and I was surprised to find nearly no other that reviews bikes on a basic level of engineering. I find it stunning that in the bike industry marketing is not based on science and facts but sloppy non sense terms.
I don't understand how this issue ended up at the end user. Where is QC in this issue, they must have noticed this in testing? Maybe the seat post supplier messed up with the tolerances, but this seems more like a design flaw to me. This is less than basic level of engineering!! You would fail your exams with this kind of design flaw.
I'm surprised how the bike industry often lacks a basic sense of engineering.
AND what about IF/WHEN these fail and cause SERIOUS bodily injury??? It’s also why I don’t trust disc brake designs for road bikes...this industry has PROVED time after time they have NO CLUE WHAT engineering is. (I’m an on-site QC/Super intendent for DOD construction 🚧 and am REQUIRED to validate designs/work with a 3rd party QC corps...)
I have a feeling that bike industy has more glittery Indusrial Designers than salty engineers.
Agree on the design principles. Had to remove the headset bearing from an ultimate CF SL 2015, which was a nightmare. No clearance to properly remove it.
I just really appreciate your channel.
Amazing presentation PT, But where do they fit on the C.Sb.S.o.E.Fw?
Great video.. sums up the problem that Hambini had touched on minus the language 😁👍
I think he´s why better than Hambini. I think that Hambini loses a lot of his credibility because of his language. If i whant to hear someone swear and rant about shit I visit my grandad
Yea he has good content .. but I don’t enjoy his manners .. he’s grumpy guy who seeks attention
Canyon....why have you not gone after this guy like you did Hambini?
@@JMcLeodKC711 because he’s not such a dick and stays professional
@@m0e566 Thanks for stating the obvious. I think it’s good old fashioned racism myself.
For the members of the jury, please indicate on the bicycle frame where the manufacturer touched you.
Really enjoyed the rant in the end. Was laughing my ass off! Thanks for telling the truth, and bless the engeneers at Shimano!
16:54 I do sometimes think that tyre tolerances could be better too, given the differences in fit across different brands but I'm absolutely with you on everything else!
Respectfully: 2:41; I would posit that the new "s" post design's purpose would not only be to fit tighter, but to also have less (almost no) flex at the bottom section (frame interface to clamp) in order to alleviate rubbing. The top of the "s" would be the flexible section. This design would be constrained by the existing frame and work similarly to a post clamped higher. It is probably the only realistic solution without changing the frame. Anyway good video and thank you for keeping it civil. It does make one wonder how the present design made it out of the design review.
Totally agree with your points about the bike industry at the end. I make quite a decent salary and can save up for a bike in a few weeks but that doesn't mean we deserve crap. This is the bike industry looking at their user base and going "high income, free spenders, let's maximize this". The point about group sets at the end was on point. These tolerances do exist in the industry. I'm not a mechanical engineer but I'd venture to guess that it costs Shimano to make a DA Di2 groupset more than canyon pays for each of these frames.
appreciate your expertise and clear words, no bashing.
i'm watching hambini for a long time, in the beginning his cursing was kind of funny but nowadays it's annoying and way too much.
so it's refreshing to see your video, it shows growth how you act.
thanks for the quality, keep it up!
I agree. Hambini's message is lost on me now because I can't stand his infantile presentation style.
Dude, you were so pissed off I was afraid you'd hammer the hell out of the wheels with that seatpost on a tantrum
As usual GREAT vid. thanks for this quality content..
Thank you for expressing yourself passionately without resorting lazily to foul language. 👏👏
Hambini does know his "shite". Hambini and PT are more similar than different...engineering, cycling and cars
Yikes, I was planning to order an Aeroad this year... I'll be waiting for them to update the seatpost / frame before I buy.
I intend to buy a Darimo seatpost for my Ostro. Worked well on my Sworks SL6 - as it's so light, it flexes slightly more and gives a more comfortable ride. No need for complex clamping systems.
A Shimano frame would be amazing
I don’t work at Canyon but it is pretty easy to figure out what happened:
1. Owners/investors tell management that the next bike needs to be more aero, lighter, and more comfortable
2. Managers pass the info to engineers
3. Engineers come back with a viable solution
4. Managers tell them that it isn’t aero/light/comfortable enough
5. Engineers say it isn’t possible without sacrificing one or the other
6. Managers say that isn’t acceptable, probably with some line like “if you can’t figure it out I’ll find someone that can”
7. Engineers come back with this solution. Managers and investors are happy.
8. Engineer sends memo saying something like “this solution carries the risk of creaking or other issues while under load that may result in massive warranty claims”
9. Engineer gets fired, managers instruct everyone to ignore e-mail
Or something like that
Hello Mr. P Torque. There are a lot of assumptions here rendering the outputs little more than pretty pictures but you get kudos for doing the fundamentals and I concur with your diagnosis and remedy.
Any chance someone can send a post over to Raoul Luescher for him to dissect?
We’d have the holy trinity of Hambini, Peak Torque and Luescher Teknik all over Canyon.
That would give those clowns over at Cervelo way too much relief.
"This seatpost design is... Less than ideal"
It doesn't need cutting up. The layup is the least of the worries. Basic beam bending theory is where they need to start. Year one of nearly ALL Mech Eng, Aero Eng, Automotive Eng, Civil Eng, Structural Eng degrees across the globe.
@@PeakTorque Too be fair Solid mechanics was a year 2 course at my university so canyons engineers probably would have dropped out before getting to it.
I love this video! Thanks PT for revealing us how poorly these bike manufacturers operate.
Another fantastic video--keep up the GREAT work. Not surprised to see you and Hambini are again in total agreement--chalk up another one to science. For some reason, Hambini has removed his Aeroad review from last week, but, he disclosed on Feb 16th, "There have been several questions regarding the Hambini TH-cam channel take downs of the videos. A page explaining the on goings and a general wider look will be displayed shortly."
LOOL
The Roubaix had this type of system, low clamp and a higher frame opening. They used a rubber grommet, and the final exit clearance is massive in every direction. Round post.
You and Hambini need to do a collab.
Hambini writes the script and the pretty boy does the talking . Them hambini can fix his plumbing at the same time . Lol
@@edmundscycles1 Hambo is a big shot in an airplane company.
@@n.m4497 I know . You obviously didn't see the video where he did top trumps with himself .
I reach for my steel bike more than any other.
Yup. Gimme Columbus SL with a Campy C-Record aero post any day. 1980s technology has not failed me yet.
Yep steel for me every time. It’s not that I don’t trust carbon. It’s that I don’t trust how they use it.
Same here, steel is real!
Would be interesting to know what you think about the recessed seat clamp of the Rose Backroad CF. To me their solution seems like it would also work for the Canyon Aeroad.
I like my carbon dual-boinger, but honestly, nothing ever rode better than my handmade steel frame on roads. A 20 year old racer might prefer an aero super-stiffy, but a Pegoretti or Vanilla or Sachs or is glorious.
Thank you for this video and rant. It is a absolute shame that they produce shit like this and hopefully engineers like you and Hambini can get this industry producing the product they should and with aero/automotive tolerances as I don’t believe it’s unexceptionable to expect that. I’m a custom home builder with physics and engineering education and this industry appals me, but love the sport.
Again thank you for ranting the truth
As a graphic designer not engineer, I actually spot that seatpost weakness the very time it was introduced. Kinda surprised that the frame was not the one that actually cracking since it bears a lot of motion and pressure.
Thank you for your great analysis on this and many other aspects of the cycling industry's products. You really do an excellent job at it.
It is very sad when someone with limited mechanical knowledge gets misdirected by this industry to purchase overpriced and hyped products. It makes me sad when some young rider works had to save up money to purchase substandard cycling gear and if you warn them about it they just argue back defining their choice because they are so brainwashed. The cycling industry's Koolaid is very sweet indeed.
The Ultimate CF has the basic same design idea, but with a round seatpost and a rubber grommet, and that has worked fine for many years.
Really strange that Canyon didn't think that the new design would be a problem in real life.
By the way, the top tube is "flat" and the seatpost part of the frame doesn't "stick up", so your rubber skirt wouldn't work as shown.
The Specialized Roubaix has a similar desing as the Aeroroad but with a rubber grommet. It also looks like the clamp is closer to the top, so less movement to compensate.
Smaller seatpost with an elastomeric sleeve to cushion and damp the seatpost to seat tube intreface, done.. In the meantime just put some vinyl electrical tape around the seatpost at the frame entry area. That clamp at the bottom of the seatpost is asking for trouble.
So refreshing to watch this sort of content rather than the garbage coming out of 'technical editors' from the major cycling sites
Non-technical shills. Mostly
Those vids/magzines spluttering anything to put a dollar in their pocket and they now want you to subscribe to watch more sponsored content with more splutting! So they get paid from both sides of the fence. Just Greed!
A business idea for @Peak Torque: You buy test examples of the best open-mould Chinese carbon frames and run engineering tests on them. Once you have found ones that meet your standards you can buy them in bulk, monitor the quality, and then sell them on to the public for a tidy profit. It would be a win-win for everyone but the big brands. You would make a profit, the public would get a quality frame they could trust while saving thousands, and we could all stick it to the big brands who are price gauging the cycling community with over-priced and under-engineered frames.
Good idea, but it is probably not a good look for the channel. Immediately when you start doing testing on the products you sell, you run into a huge conflict of interests.
Great assessment and fix. Understanding that this video is a bit old, you wouldn’t happen to know if there was a re-design or just a revision for the 2023’s where this was resolved? Or are we to expect the same issues? Thanks.
Thanks 🙏 for pointing out the ridiculous behavior of bike manufacturers!
It’s going on for years now and they just wanna extract more and more money from their
customers!
I highly appreciate channels like Luescher,Hambini and yours.
In the end i have to solve this shitload of problems when i’m setting up these frames for the
customers!
In 1985 i had a Vitus Carbone Kevlar 9 built up as a time trial bike-the first ever carbon frame-carbon tubes bonded to aluminum lugs-this amazing
frame still runs today with no issues whatsoever - due to french aerospace engineering standards.
Let’s force them to do their homework! 🤙
Thanks for the video. Any info on the 2022 model? They said they have improved it, but still lots of creaking judging by reviews and videos.
Thank you for the HONEST and professional review 👍
Oh man... and the bars today! MVP.... No one saw that one coming
Amen to this! At this point, I might just either buy my next carbon frame straight from a factory and pay what it is actually worth whilst receiving arguably more consistent quality. OR I just keep on doing what I did with my gravel bike - Have someone build me a nice steel frame in just the right size at less than half the price that Canyon et al ask for their stuff.
Try the high end pragma from durianrider or boutique brands like parlee or lynskey. It comes with a price but knowing you get quality frame.
Quality bikes have never come from large scale manufacturers. Until recently most of the bikes in the pro pelotón where flying false flags- in the eighties for example the French artisans at Cyfac made what sometimes seemed like the bikes of half the field, tho usually none bore the name. Nothings changed except the prices. If you go for carbon look at Cyfac, 51Bikes, Festka etc. Yeah they'll cost as much as a top end Canyon or Cervelo or whatever but at least you'll be paying for craftsmanship not marketing.
@@brianbolger6313 You're right. 5 grand for a bike frame however is a pretty exclusive market.
Nice job on the mechanical analysis. While I share your frustration with the bike industry's lack of proper design, manufacturing, and quality control, making a "plastic" frame correctly is far from easy! Complex composite shapes and layups are subject to springback upon cooling after cure. This can often lead to distorted parts if not properly accounted for or designed/manufactured. Given the tolerance requirements in a few key areas of a bike frame, I am not surprised to see out of tolerance bottom brackets or misaligned head tubes (to name a few). Employing the methods necessary to address these issues requires more costly and time consuming manufacturing processes. Hambini has shown multiple times, some (many?) manufacturers do a very poor job of designing and manufacturing a quality product that meets the required standards. As a composites engineer (not in the bike industry!), I can confirm building a composite frame correctly is not easy...especially at the rates/volumes most brands produce. Not making excuses, just pointing out the industry's unwillingness to do things right in order to maximize profit. Why do you think virtually no composite frames undergo Non-Destructive Inspection (NDI)? There are some relatively good manufacturers, you just have to do your homework and not buy into the latest marketing BS from the hottest brands.
Thanks for this very good information I am at the point to choose between a Canyon Aeroad and a Factor Ostro and I would really appreciate you opinion on this
Peak torque: Give the money to shimano and get them to make the frames
That might be the real and long term answer to this fuckery from the big bike brands
when GCN talks about this hell freezes over
I thought GCN, GMBN and EMBN raved about everything now. Not a bad word about anything I stopped subscribing because it got too commercial.
@@seankearney6915 GCN is literally a pure marketing channel. Don't expect much more
Or any of the numerous Future controlled publications.
GCN are sponsored by Canyon so it isn't going to happen
What a rant :-) I just ordered a Ridley carbon frame ... now I hope it’s some decent quality
Top rant. Enjoy the ride
Frame quality lowers, prices rise. Shame. Thanks for your reviews
True about the difference between automotive and cycling engineering levels.. bearing and piston ring tolerances in engines can handle 300,000km of very varied operating conditions with imperfect maintenance and still as a system pass rigorous emissions standards.. and they are sacrificial wear surfaces! Thanks to you, lutscher teknik and hambini the shortlist for next frame got very short.. Look, Time or Giant :L
The Aeroad used to be my dream bike around two years ago, but then there were the problems with frame quality raised by Hambini last year, and now this seat post problem with their new models. These problems have really shaken my confidence in Canyon, as it has all but proven Hambini correct regarding Canyon's terrible engineering.
I wasn't completely deterred by the frame quality because that was about manufacturing tolerances (e.g. could be the Chinese frame manufacturer's fault, as was the case with the Hambini video where a customer found the QC sheet that was signed off even though the frame had failed QC). However, the seat post problem is about engineering design, which is squarely the Canyon engineers' fault.
The shipping rates to Australia are also crazy (as per usual with most things that are shipped to Australia), so I don't think I will ever consider buying Canyon at all now. The numbers just don't add up.
I don't know what brand to buy anymore. I had a seatpost problem on my 2009 Madone. They never solved my problem, despite their lifetime warranty for the first owner. The seatpost goes over the frame and is secured with a clamping system with two screws from the back. Every season one of the bolts would brake. Cycling friends called me the canon, because of the sound the braking bolt made when braking during a ride. Almost had an accidant because of this problem. There were more people that had the same problem back then, but Trek did just ignore the problem. I had to take my loss and throw away a 2000 euro frame. They changed the way they clamp their seatpost the next year by the way. Never a Trek for me again. Now I can add Canyon to my "never buy" list I see.
My Dutch friend has received notification from Canyon that a seatpost cap (grommet?) is being sent to him.
Have you seen the new design for the seat post? Someone leaked the patent photo as seen on the Cycling Tips webpage. What is your opinion on it? Cheers!
Your ending rant was spot on.....
Great video mate.
Meanwhile, one year later, they released the grommet but still no where near a proper and final fix. Ridiculous. Even with the grommet the design choice of having a moving seat post in a carbon frame just seems bonkers.
Ps: you had a load case for a heavy rider, but what about compliance for a light rider? Would the stiffer post still flex enough?
i like the end of the video! you naild it bro! :D