Too many critically functional parts made these days by designers not by engineers. Generally the story goes along the lines of... engineer designs a part, machinist makes the part and it's perfect for the job, it's made well and it performs and functions as it should. Along comes financial analyst and says that part costs too much make them cheaper, along comes some designer to copy the function of the part so it can be made cheaply. Finance happy, designer happy. Engineer not happy, machinist not happy. Customers happy to start with, several customers get injured or die, part goes back to original design quietly in the background.......
Also, everything looks fine in CAD without deflection, flex, and machining tolerances. Easy mistake when you're a junior engineer. I know this, because i and practically all engineers make these mistakes as a junior. That's why you always need an old wise head to mentor you when you're young. Luckily I had a good one. Arthur if you're watching, thank you, you old bastard.
tbh i don't think it's as simplistic as above, manufacturers are entitled to look for most cost effective solution, manufacturing a part that will fail is not cost effective so seems to me their was a project/ process failure somewhere along the review steps, fmea or elsewhere.
According to German cycling magazine “Rennrad” Canyon just released a statement (at least here in Germany) not to use their latest Canyon Aeroad CF SLX and CFR models until further notice. Seems like the new Aeroad turns out to be the 737MAX of the cycling industry.😬
Stuart Dryer good for you. The more I hear about carbon parts failing on modern bikes, the more I want to buy a handmade steel or aluminium bike (often for a lot less £ than many full carbon bikes 🤔🤯).
Smart sprinters stick with alloy bars. I know Tyler Farrar stuck with alloy in his day. They're torquing way too hard on the bars to risk it to a carbon bar. MVDP might have realized he should too.
@@stuartdryer1352 yea my local bike shop where like you are not getting a carbon bar or stem as the risk of you not getting home after a crash is to big better take that weight lose and actualy get home at the end of the day
Too many bike manufacturers are making too many proprietary parts/components. Unnecessarily rengineering evey part is going to result in a slew of sub optimized designs. I'm still not convinced that Canyon completely screwed up either here or with the seatpost--however as you say, if it's not "human proof" it's going to result in problems
His dad said: "He crashed his bike into a car during Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne, he was riding this exact bike during the latest race where his handlebar snapped. Maybe there was already a small fracture in the carbon and/or was not properly checked after the race".
Yeah, the advice wasn't re the clamps and that would've been an easy fix especially for the mechanics. They went ahead and customized the frames and changed the handlebar so that the bike could be used. I'd say that kills the whole assumption.
I'm guessing the cut outs (yes I know they are pressed) on the standard Shimano clamp allow some flex, allowing the clamp to sit flat to the bar, reducing how much of the load is carried on the sharp edge. Also, everything pressed/stamped has a small radius on one side, does the Shimano clamp put this side to the bar? I'm guessing the radius is only ~0.1mm, but it's still got to be better than the sharp side of the pressing.
Good observation that man. Yes the slots in the Shimano definitely have some purpose. They've really thought about it. Especially using the barrel nut. Fool proof.
So, from various product images around the web, it appears that they are putting fractured depth towards the handlebars, which is on the other side of the rollover depth so to speak. I would hypothesize the major factor is the possibility of more flexure in the thin stamped steel or ti Shimano band clamp than the machined (or forged and then machined) aluminum clamp from Canyon (especially with those relatively big sections with the pins). While it may not be drastic, it could come into play at this intersection of a strong pro rider riding the lightest, thinnest carbon bars, on hard courses. In a related note, Canyon choosing to go with a female thread in the clamp to affix the shifter immediately conjures up all the unfortunate times people have put too long bolts in post mounted calipers on suspension forks 🙈 Only to be discovered when the poor mechanic goes to remove the caliper and gets covered in lower bath oil 🙃
@@PeakTorque I've just compared the old 7900 Dura-Ace shifters I removed from my bike to the new Ultegra 8000. The Old DA one has a titanium clamp ring that has chamfered relief on the edges like you describe in CAD. The Ultegra ones just have simple pressed steel with sharp edges. Glad I watched this, as it's prompted me to swap them before I install.
Shimano band on front mechs have a 'plastic' sleeve that fits over the clamp edges- why not use this design solution? Having worked as Pro Tour mech, It was common for the riders to shun carbon cockpits,now they put their lives in the pockets of the sponsor marketeers not engineers! The bikes are so time consuming to put together that its often hard to get 20 plus team bikes prepped in time ,wheels fall off during F1 pit stops,unforgivable,but it happens.... Top work sir
No. that's a big no. as a marketing expert for over 50 years, we do not recommend plastic sleeve, that is very damaging to the industry. we use long carbon chain polymeric compliance member instead. yes.
Could you possibly do a video on Q-rings/osymmetric chainrings? It would be interesting to see a proper analysis from an independent source on their effectiveness.
Im trying to tie that in with the 4 bar analysis/crank length sim but until i nail the inverse kinematics simulation its all conjecture and waffle. More work needed.
Don't forget to actually ride the rings and have the experience. I'm not sure about the claims of increased power / less power needed to keep the speed etc. But from bike fitting/physio standpoint they work wonders for people. I personally ride qrings and I can say that cadence is higher and climbing is easier due to decreased leverage on the dead spot.
@@PeakTorque I'm experienced in Rotor QRings (and I'm an engineer too). I think that in some cases oval chainrings can give some biomecanichal advantage and nothing more. They make move in the upper and lower dead point easier, at the cost of harder pushing at horizontal rods (and often with worse functioning of front deirelleur). Nothing more, nothing less. For me, QRings are good in providing knees releaf but other people may not have any benefits.
Great video PT. Please consider doing a video on the different types of power meters. For example, How accurate are they really and which types are best.
Canyon have now issued a stop riding notice to owners of the Aeroad with the adjustable bars ... implies they think over tightening may not have been the cause. CEO also said they're doing everything they can to get a bar to owners that meets their standards. So something seems to be up.
They said on television during the race that Mvdp hit a mirror of a car , but i'm not sure if that was in this race or in Kuurne Brussel Kuurne a few days ago ...
Excellent opinion on the sharp edges of the band-clamp, I think the long bolt is the likely cause, as a mechanic, you wouldn’t feel it crushing the carbon and it could do substantial damage quickly
Saw these clamps in the canyon build video, was wondering why they used something different, like u said why redesign a safety-critical component if you don't have to. They just did it because of the square handlebar end, which I can't really think of a reason to have anyway....
Can confirm that the explanation of the issues with Canyon's proprietary clamp is very accurate - and probably a bigger problem than stated. Even if you don't damage the handlebar when tightening, any crash or force applied to the hoods that would normally make it slip will cause the bolt to dig into and (probably) damage the bar. Also, it's important to note that use of this clamp isn't limited to the Aeroad. I found out it's used on the Grail as well when I went to replace a shifter that broke in a fall and found significant damage to the handlebar.
Great analysis. Note that some handlebar stems have a similar lack-of-radius problem where the stem edges contact the bar. The sharp, straight edge of the stem digs right into the handlebar, causing a potential failure point. Especially since the bar flexes under load, such as when sprinting. And, this is not theoretical. I experienced a carbon bar failure on the bar surface where the sharp stem edge contacted it. That's despite using a Park Tools calibrated preset torque wrench on the stem bolts, and tightening gradually "in layers" and in the correct bolt pattern order. Now I only buy stems with radiused edges, and I don't use carbon bars anymore.
That clamp looks way more complex to manufacture than a simpler potentially safer one, but it looks like the design of the Canyon band is actually to avoid the edge from biting in as it's not straight, it looks tapered so the edges will meet at the curve at roughly 90 degrees (at least that would be the idea). Those canyon clamps also look like the edges are rounded, not the shiny sharp metal of the Shimano setup.
Van Der Poel gets all over his bars. He rides with a flatter back angle than most, most of the time....which brings center of gravity forwards. He also sites on the front 1/3 of the saddle for long periods. When climbing he uses the drops more than most. and when sprinting, he rocks the bike more than most. I believe his stem length is 120mm. He's 184cm and 75kg, and when sprinting out of the saddle he gets more lateral shift of his pelvis which is counterbalanced by more stress through the bars. Yet another example that aggressive riders should use alloy bars. In the carbon era, I've seen at least 6 carbon bars break during sprints, and never an alloy bar.
@@username8644 Agree. If the bars break, you are not riding for at least 3 months. Tightening carbon bars to spec often delaminates carbon layers. Most professional mechanics do not torque to spec, but a few Nm below. And with repetitive tightening and loosening, the carbon layers are further delaminated.
@@username8644 Yes, you will find most pros and experienced riders share your perspective re where carbon components. The great majority of racers are carrying at least 5 kg of excess fat and even muscle. They should be looking at optimizing their body for more efficient acceleration and climbing. Many do not realize Chris Froome's dramatic improvement around 2011 when he joined Team Sky was due significantly to stripping muscle from his trunk and upper limbs, and getting his bodyfat % under 10% for the full year. It would drop under 6% during the GT season.
Good observation on the superiority of the Shimano bolt design. Back in the pre-brifter olden days, pressed steel brake lever clamps featured a captive nut, with an M6 cheesehead or cap screw running through the brake lever. Look at old pair of 80s era alloy bars, and you'll likely find witness marks from an overtightened brake lever on the outside radius of the bend. The bolt end would literally bore into the bars, leaving distinctive circular cuts. The risk posed by the Canyon design is more than theoretical.
great and thoughtful analysis there PT. looking at the clamps across several shimano levers in the last ten-twenty years, it looks like they evolved from a solid one piece, to a form of two slim stripes. seems compliant though.
I think having the slots allow a bit of conformity to the curved profile, they learnt that over time. Its certainly not for weight saving, probably less than 1g!
@@PeakTorque brakes manufacturer did safety test YES Handlebar manufacturer did safety test YES Aftermarket accessory manufacturer NO safety test, eg bracket, ceramic ball bearings
The SRAM design is a bolt design too, with threads in the clamp. So potentially the bolt can contact the bar too. They are different from the campy/shimano clamps too.
I'd never buy a bike with any proprietary design. I want: round seatpost, round standard head tube and headset, round handlebar with separate stem, pressfit BB86 or threaded BSA bottom bracket.
"Pro level mechanics" yeah thats the problem, they hate torque wrenches because they think they are to good for them & they can "feel" how much they are torquing, problem is, look at the MVDP bike build video at 6:08 th-cam.com/video/a-UU1Owduq0/w-d-xo.html Hard to tell how hard that dude is torquing up that bolt but it looks pretty firm since A) Look at the strain on his finger & wrist, looks way more than 4-6nm B) Did the torx key "dig in" to the bolt material? The way he have to wiggle out the torx key; that only happens to me when i really really tighten a bolt as hard as i can
@@Jeppelelle It's absolute BS that "pro mechanic" can tell the proper torque with his wrist strength. You just can't because everyone's got different strength. When I was an aircraft airframe mechanic in military, we always had inspector who made sure that we use calibrated torque wrench for tightening critical bolts of the airframe. Improper torque of bolts can cause things to fall off or cause stress cracks. Granted that bicycles don't get subjected to harsh stress, torque, and vibrations like airplanes while they're moving, but due to "fragile" nature of carbon fiber parts, proper torque shouldn't be ignored.
@@Reanimator999 Yep, it would be fun to make an experiment, tell 50 random people & 50 "pros"/bike mechanics to "hand torque" a seatpost clamp to 4nm or hoods to 6nm, i would bet good money on that not even 10% of the people would even get within 1-2nm of the correct torque consistently, 4nm is so little force that i think both of the groups would think they applied way to little force & thus proceed to overtigthen it & i don't think the result between the groups would be significantly different. So yeah, seeing this dude using his armstrenght to tighten a bolt anyone can tighten with low wrist strength....well yeah in combination with carbon fibers notoriously clamping "fragility" (for lack of a better word/term) is probably not a good combo
@@Jeppelelle Exactly my thought as well. I remember the crash of one of the AG2R riders in a TT. They swapped out some part of the handle bar the night before or he morning of the TT, something not to spec and he introduced himself to the tarmac...
Adrie Vanderpoel, his dad, said in Belgian media that Mathieu hit a car during Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne. He rode the same bike in Le Samyn. So yeah every carbon handlebar could brake after a crash like that.
I added some rubber gaskets on the Shifter level clamps. The rubber not only protects the carbon bend but you can now add the proper torque and the Levers will not slip as the rubber sticks around the carbon. 70 cents to solve this problem.
You probably already know this but Campag. does stamp a radius into the edges of their lever clamps. They have been doing this for many years - all the way back to the 8 speed era at least.
OK, now that I've had time to look at my handlebars here's what I've found. I have the Canyon aeroad CFR. I unwrapped the bars and looked at the bars and the clamps. The bars are perfectly round in the area defined as where you can attach the levers. The gauge I have can't detect anything by measuring all up and down and from every angle. Also, there was no marring at all where the clamp was initially installed, not even a difference in the shine so the campher on the edge of the clamp seems to have been more than enough. No marring. I think the pinned clamp is better than the stock clamp because it looks to me like it spreads the pressure around the bar more evenly. I wish I could report something that looked wrong because I'd be more confident of a quick fix, but since I can't, all I can say is, everything looks very well done. It may turn out that MVP's bike's failure was just a fluke and the design is just fine. In the meantime I have a couple of other bikes that ride just fine.
@@StopTheRot I highly recommend "Why We Fight" and "Live Bravely and Die Courageously". Or anything by Alfred Rosenberg, Kurt Eggers or Heinrich Himmler.
Other aspects to consider: 1- handle bars manufacturers have different bends, some have flat surfaces or reinforced the area where the clamps are place; some manufacturers will state if the stems are carbon bar friendly or not, 3- Shimano could also place the clamps In a ceramic stone polisher to remove the sharp edges, 4 obey torque specs for carbon anything!!!!! I am a 250lbs cyclist, I have use carbon bars on my xc bike and carbon extensions on my TT bike for years with no failures I use to use a carbon base bar but it would slip if I hit a bad pot hole or railroad crossing, I switched to aluminum just for peace of mind
I added some rubber gaskets on the Shifter level clamps. The rubber not only protects the carbon bend but you can now add the proper torque and the Levers will not slip as the rubber sticks around the carbon.
Interesting. I reckon the attaching zone you can see marked on the handlebar, yellow lines, is where the joint is placed. Did the bar fail THERE, or where the joint ends high/low on the bar, possibly creating stress riser?? Why not use some epoxy to glue strips of abrasive paper onto the front part of the attaching zone, creating higher friction to keep STI levers in position? Possibly also to the rear side of the bar, to keep clamp in place? That way, you could use lower clamping force. I know it´s a bugger when levers slip, especially the left. My Ergopower did, and front brake was adjusted close to the rim, having me to fight a constant front braking.. Not racing, though. Rgr
You can't make a radius on the clamp edges during stamping. No way of 'swaging' those sharp corners since you'd be moving (instead of removing) material, you'd just deform the corners. That radius needs material removal hence machining or grinding, that's why they don't do it as it would increase cost
Campagnolo does actually radius their clamps and the correct orientation is indicated. Never had an issue with them on carbon, have had one Deda 35 bar break from SRAM though. As a soon to be mechanical engineer I really appreciate your ability to explain the nuances of the design process for the real life application. Being a tinkerer does not make someone an engineer, takes years of going through methods, processes and reviews.
Excellent video! Really great stuff. Related to this...BULLETIN TO ALL BAR MANUFACTURERS: in a perfect world ALL decent road bars would come with both centering marks for the stem AND marks at the transitions for the shifters. I have some bars that have these and it makes setup/install a breeze! I know, I know. I can just pull out a tape measure/level, etc. But, as I wrote, in a perfect world all manufacturers would put these on the bars. Fingers crossed!
MVDP's father said on Belgian tv that this specific bike (more specific the handlebar) had collided with a car at an earlier race. So that probably didn't help.
3:00 you won't get much of an edge radius on that 18g steel strap. A soft aluminium sleeve, all the way round the tube, sticking axially out the ends by a few mm, would remove the crack initiation site from the structural part of the bars.
Great points! We also need to keep in mind that the cycling industry, like many industries, is built around the integration of many small parts, some new some old. In the rush to differentiate ones product, often times well established design practices are overlooked or dismissed. Sometimes because they really weren’t understood in the first place. IMO, carbon has no place in handle bars/steerers to begin with. The point loads associated with those items are simply to great and variable across the ecosystem of components. It’s like playing wack-a-mole, when you address one issue, another pops up. Given the materials available and weight saving involved, does it really make sense?
Super interesting and well-balanced, thank you! Granted, MVDP is able to rip apart stuff the average Joe can’t, but I wonder if a consumer after riding a bike for 5+ years might have this outcome due to fatigue as well?
Great video as usual, but the question I’d like to raise is why Canyon’s bar drop ends are squared off instead of round. If that is the reason for their going to a proprietary lever clamp, that would seem to be an easy fix for the future as they can go back to Shimano’s clamps... even if the edges are not chamfered. 😊
At roughly Midnight GMT March 4th, Canyon put out a notice to stop riding the Aeroads equipped with these bars. Conventional, non-engineer wisdom tells me this failure isn't an isolated incident. And of course, don't forget about the seat post clamp....
All very interesting just to throw it in the mix could it have been poor carbon? His power pulling on the bars or did he hit the bars at some time that we don't know about? Yes the clamp is most likely culprit to start the failure.
Could you do a vid explaining the benefits of a frame that's been well-manufactured with good tolerances? It is just a case of higher bb efficiency, longer working life, and less prone to failure, or are there other benefits too?
@@larsborgman3443 I guess nothing. Another commenter said they do the same thing in these comments and Peak Torque said they do it as well. Look for "Shunt Harvey Ricafort"s comment
Why do canyon do all this weird proprietary stuff? Like, why does a handlebar need to have a cross section like that and why does a seatpost need to be so flexy? At least now that it's backfired bike companies might learn. If it ain't broke...
In product design you need to evaluate risks right. Does the benefit of having a proprietary, square shaped drop outweigh the risks of using a non-standard non-OEM part? No!
Interesting analysis! Can't see the benefit of the new clamp at all. Why? For sure it's heavier than the titanium Shimano one. Why make a non round handlebar end anyway? As for the chamfer: I use cheap chinese handlebars. Crashed a few times, the STI levers got banged, they moved. Not a mark to make note of on the handlebar. I think it's very rare to see such a failure, I don't remember any at all! Of course the bars might break on crash, but that's to be expected, I'd think!
It would be nice to see some finite element analysis about the two clamp designs of how they are able to cope with slightly over/under sized handlebars. Not sure about the actual tolerancing of the bars/clamps, but simulate something like nominal, ±0.2, ±0.5mm. Somehow i strogly suspect that a strip of sheet metal wraps around any size in a given range nicely whereas the machined construction is simply too rigid and quickly ends up having only 1-2 point contacts when clamped on handlebars which are not PERFECTLY fitting into the clamps. Then regardless the chamfers/fillets added around the edges there will be some serious stress concentration.
The bike behind you on the wall mount: if you have the gears in the smallest sprocket and smallest chainring, the springs in the deraillers are more relaxed.
Oh my goodness I never realized the severity of clamps on carbon 🤯 but can a buffer be used between the clamp and bar ie.. piece of inner tube or plastic shim?
Could easily be too much torque on the bolts + a hit in the truck + a massively powerful dude pulling on it for 6 hours a day. Agree the right profile will make a big difference to the reliability.
God bless Canyon for giving opportunities to make educational content! With all seriousness though the true problem might be that they rely on field testing too much and are involving custumers into that. Should I want to participate in Beta-testing, it better be non-critical fundraised software, not this.
So...Cayon designed both the composite bar AND designed the three piece clamp which is conducive to edge loading and stress risers? How is this not bad engineering from Cayon?
Dude, people have been putting their huge weight and force on brake levers with out of saddle climbing and sprinting since drop bars have been invented. The bottom line is the bar is not designed to handle the stress. As far a the clamp contact with the bar, that bar section could be wrapped with silicon tape. This will protect bar a decrease slippage. The mechanic can also file clamp edges to make a smooth chamfered edge.
FMEA reminds me of when I worked in automotive industry and used TOPS 8D to identify failure mode and corrective action. Happy days watching this video. from a CEng MIET
For what it’s worth: I have a few Campagnolo clamps for Centaur 10 speed levers (2012) in front of me. The flat sheet itself is bent outwards on the side of the clamp opposite of the bolt. So at least one component maker is aware of this issue.
Lots of talk of a team mechanic not using torque wrenches in a video? Edit: I went digging for this video, the only one I can find is by 'road bike channel' TH-cam channel which builds up a 2021 mvdp bike. They don't use torque wrenches on the hood clamps. It is not clear to me whether this is mvdps bike or just a hobby bike though.
Solid vid. Along with everything you’ve said, I reckon the mechanic has over tightened at the request of van der Poel. As you said, a standard nm manufacturer recommendation will result in Mathieu’s levers to move with his power.
Couldnt you do an alu insert on the back of the curve of the handlebars and completely avoid this failure, gaining minimal weight? In my mind the clamp would need to be bar specific, due to different radius and other variables. But if it truly is pennies, that is easier and probably way cheaper.
Just Canyon again - don’t understand how to do design for manufacture. It smacks of arrogance that they go an redesign parts from an established reputable component supplier rather than collaborate with them or design to fit what they intend to install. What’s the bet they didn’t do a proper DVA on this as well. I’d be deeply concerned about their adjustable bars as well; would you really trust them with bolted joint calculations? I wouldn’t trust anything canyon anymore; I’d be constantly thinking ‘what next’ when riding anything they make.
Is the probability of the Canyon design to damage the bar by clamp edges not larger? The clamp seems much stiffer, the simpler clamps that also have slots in it seem more likely to bend to conform to the bar?
Couple of questions: On one of the images of the clamp being installed, the bar had a zone marked for where to clamp. Do you know what reinforcement Canyon make to the bar there? Also, what merit is there to having a compliant layer between the clamp and the bar like a thin layer of rubber to equalize the loading across the surface?
The clamp has not changed since they were invented, and I have been saying this for years. And why I use aluminum. And if the clamp is radiused it won't work. It is that edge that digs in. When I had carbon bars I put a grip tape, that adds friction on steps, on the back of the bar where the clamp digs. Moreover, to save weight, everyone is make parts unnecessarily thin, like the steerer tube issue. That area should thickened on every bar. And likewise for steerer tubes.
The only clamp I've seen so far that's safe is the one on the Rotor Uno/1x13 levers, they're carbon, they have rounded edges and they clamp really well. My bars will slip in the stem before the levers move.
Can you make a video regarding the specialized allez sprint, if there is anything to be said about it (it is stiff and "cheap"), maybe the D'alusio smartweld. And how can i find out what the quality of a carbon frame is?
@@PeakTorque Also worth pointing out, (IIRC and if those marketing bike build vids are to be believed) those team bikes never see a torque wrench. Team mechs who probably think they've been doing this long enough not to have to bother...
One thing to remember about mechanics, is that if a pro rider says my shifter hood is slipping or rotating (maybe because of poor clamp design 🤔) then what are they going to do? Do they have time to apply paste right before a stage? Is the paste not working? What immediate options does the mechanic have? I think they are probably going to increase the torque rather than tell the pro rider to just lump it. I mean, it is impossible to get all the information here in the peanut gallery. Certainly there are mechanics that are not the most thoughtful, and if they are ignoring manufacturers guidelines then that is a significant problem.
@@hhmachine4254 What about for promo videos for a new bike being put together for the first time at the beginning of the season? They certainly have the time then. Otherwise it sounds like you're making a case for some fairly gross negligence that could put the racer and his competitors in some serious risk.
What is a good torque when clamping the Shimano STI levers to a carbon handlebar? Is there a recommended torque # or just go with the least amount of tightness so long the lever doesn't slip? Is grip paste also good to use?
Carbon grip paste isn't always ideal because, the particles can separate from the grease. And sometimes, you're basically just smearing on grease with hardly any grit and you'll lower the clamping friction. Better to use an alumina powder in a low strength Loctite, and make your own paste. That really increases the friction as the loctite cures when its clamped.
According to his father, Adrie, Mathieu crashed into a car during the previous race (Kuurne) with his handle bar and he used the same bike (and thus handle bar) in the following race. The carbon then failed due to the impact on the previous race and the harsh ride over the cobbles.
If that's the truth, what good is it doing now? Canyon should have under contractual obligation all factory teams replace compromised components immediately after a crash or impact. Especially in Carbon. That's SOP in Motorsport where composites are widely used. But instead they'd rather another PR nightmare? Hmmm.
@@PeakTorque I don't know exactly what you are implying but I am not saying anyone did this on purpose. I am saying, according to Adrie, his father and member of the staff of his team, he rode into a car, and they didn't replace it because he didn't crash. If he would have crashed they would always replace parts or the entire bike if necessary. But because he didn't fall, they didn't think of that. I am not saying all of this is true, I am just saying that's what he said on Belgian national television.
@@TGShunai yeh i hear ya. And cheers for the info. Seeing as his Dad is a member of staff, and knew about it, he had no excuse not to get them changed! His son's safety on the line. Mad.
![ILLSLICK - WINTER IS COMING [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dwTMeM1zIhQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Too many critically functional parts made these days by designers not by engineers. Generally the story goes along the lines of... engineer designs a part, machinist makes the part and it's perfect for the job, it's made well and it performs and functions as it should. Along comes financial analyst and says that part costs too much make them cheaper, along comes some designer to copy the function of the part so it can be made cheaply. Finance happy, designer happy. Engineer not happy, machinist not happy. Customers happy to start with, several customers get injured or die, part goes back to original design quietly in the background.......
Also, everything looks fine in CAD without deflection, flex, and machining tolerances. Easy mistake when you're a junior engineer. I know this, because i and practically all engineers make these mistakes as a junior. That's why you always need an old wise head to mentor you when you're young. Luckily I had a good one. Arthur if you're watching, thank you, you old bastard.
@@PeakTorque I really hope Arthur is watching hahah
Well said..
but the handlebar is not machined is it ?
tbh i don't think it's as simplistic as above, manufacturers are entitled to look for most cost effective solution, manufacturing a part that will fail is not cost effective so seems to me their was a project/ process failure somewhere along the review steps, fmea or elsewhere.
According to German cycling magazine “Rennrad” Canyon just released a statement (at least here in Germany) not to use their latest Canyon Aeroad CF SLX and CFR models until further notice. Seems like the new Aeroad turns out to be the 737MAX of the cycling industry.😬
Hell, imagine if Canyon engineers were let loose in the aerospace industry - you’d not make it to work on a morning for falling aircraft wreckage.
Local Mechanic were boggled why I file out my stem and any clamping edges. now i can have him see this video..
Exactly what i do. Small diamond file and chamfer ALL edges of stem clamp.
@@PeakTorque I'll be doing the same thing soon.
Put silicone tape under clamp
I feel reinforced in my decision to stick with alloy bars.
Stuart Dryer good for you. The more I hear about carbon parts failing on modern bikes, the more I want to buy a handmade steel or aluminium bike (often for a lot less £ than many full carbon bikes 🤔🤯).
Smart sprinters stick with alloy bars. I know Tyler Farrar stuck with alloy in his day. They're torquing way too hard on the bars to risk it to a carbon bar. MVDP might have realized he should too.
Since carbon is expensive why not use titanium instead? If you can break it you probably have super powers.
@Charles Rush I'm not personally worried about my carbon frames, wheels, or seatposts. But carbon bars seem particularly vulnerable.
@@stuartdryer1352 yea my local bike shop where like you are not getting a carbon bar or stem as the risk of you not getting home after a crash is to big better take that weight lose and actualy get home at the end of the day
Pretty impressive to put out such an informative and in depth video about this just a day after. Great stuff!
Too many bike manufacturers are making too many proprietary parts/components. Unnecessarily rengineering evey part is going to result in a slew of sub optimized designs. I'm still not convinced that Canyon completely screwed up either here or with the seatpost--however as you say, if it's not "human proof" it's going to result in problems
His dad said: "He crashed his bike into a car during Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne, he was riding this exact bike during the latest race where his handlebar snapped. Maybe there was already a small fracture in the carbon and/or was not properly checked after the race".
i believe James Huang on Cyclingtips called this out first. Thanks for doing the in depth analysis.
Canyon issued a stop use order for owners with those handlebars... Also, waiting for Hambini to rip a new one on Canyon 😆
90 RPM Hambini 🐿️, love him. He regularly embarises the big carbon brands 💩.
Yeah, the advice wasn't re the clamps and that would've been an easy fix especially for the mechanics. They went ahead and customized the frames and changed the handlebar so that the bike could be used.
I'd say that kills the whole assumption.
Stop use order on a 4 figure bike is disgusting.
I'm guessing the cut outs (yes I know they are pressed) on the standard Shimano clamp allow some flex, allowing the clamp to sit flat to the bar, reducing how much of the load is carried on the sharp edge. Also, everything pressed/stamped has a small radius on one side, does the Shimano clamp put this side to the bar? I'm guessing the radius is only ~0.1mm, but it's still got to be better than the sharp side of the pressing.
Good observation that man. Yes the slots in the Shimano definitely have some purpose. They've really thought about it. Especially using the barrel nut. Fool proof.
So, from various product images around the web, it appears that they are putting fractured depth towards the handlebars, which is on the other side of the rollover depth so to speak. I would hypothesize the major factor is the possibility of more flexure in the thin stamped steel or ti Shimano band clamp than the machined (or forged and then machined) aluminum clamp from Canyon (especially with those relatively big sections with the pins). While it may not be drastic, it could come into play at this intersection of a strong pro rider riding the lightest, thinnest carbon bars, on hard courses.
In a related note, Canyon choosing to go with a female thread in the clamp to affix the shifter immediately conjures up all the unfortunate times people have put too long bolts in post mounted calipers on suspension forks 🙈 Only to be discovered when the poor mechanic goes to remove the caliper and gets covered in lower bath oil 🙃
@@PeakTorque I've just compared the old 7900 Dura-Ace shifters I removed from my bike to the new Ultegra 8000. The Old DA one has a titanium clamp ring that has chamfered relief on the edges like you describe in CAD. The Ultegra ones just have simple pressed steel with sharp edges. Glad I watched this, as it's prompted me to swap them before I install.
@@mattsoutherden yes you're right. The older groups especially the titanium DA ones always had a nice round to the edges
Shimano band on front mechs have a 'plastic' sleeve that fits over the clamp edges- why not use this design solution? Having worked as Pro Tour mech, It was common for the riders to shun carbon cockpits,now they put their lives in the pockets of the sponsor marketeers not engineers! The bikes are so time consuming to put together that its often hard to get 20 plus team bikes prepped in time ,wheels fall off during F1 pit stops,unforgivable,but it happens.... Top work sir
Simple solution. I thought the same thing, a sleeve or shim in there to spread the load would cost nothing and add much to the factor of safety
Wrap bar with silicon tape under clamp area.
No. that's a big no. as a marketing expert for over 50 years, we do not recommend plastic sleeve, that is very damaging to the industry.
we use long carbon chain polymeric compliance member instead. yes.
Could you possibly do a video on Q-rings/osymmetric chainrings? It would be interesting to see a proper analysis from an independent source on their effectiveness.
Im trying to tie that in with the 4 bar analysis/crank length sim but until i nail the inverse kinematics simulation its all conjecture and waffle. More work needed.
In other words. No one has any proof they work yet.
@@PeakTorque fair enough cheers mate, stay safe lad
Don't forget to actually ride the rings and have the experience. I'm not sure about the claims of increased power / less power needed to keep the speed etc. But from bike fitting/physio standpoint they work wonders for people. I personally ride qrings and I can say that cadence is higher and climbing is easier due to decreased leverage on the dead spot.
@@PeakTorque I'm experienced in Rotor QRings (and I'm an engineer too). I think that in some cases oval chainrings can give some biomecanichal advantage and nothing more. They make move in the upper and lower dead point easier, at the cost of harder pushing at horizontal rods (and often with worse functioning of front deirelleur). Nothing more, nothing less. For me, QRings are good in providing knees releaf but other people may not have any benefits.
Great video PT. Please consider doing a video on the different types of power meters. For example, How accurate are they really and which types are best.
Ive done that, a very old video though you can find in my uploads. Maybe time for a refresh and update. Some of the info has now changed.
Oh fuckin' perf, i just cracked a bevvie open!
Canyon have now issued a stop riding notice to owners of the Aeroad with the adjustable bars ... implies they think over tightening may not have been the cause. CEO also said they're doing everything they can to get a bar to owners that meets their standards. So something seems to be up.
The bolted adjustment is not stiff. Its full of backlash and flex. With a clearance Fit how can it ever be as stiff as a continuous tube. Can't.
And just like that, I’m satisfied with my AL bars again.
They said on television during the race that Mvdp hit a mirror of a car , but i'm not sure if that was in this race or in Kuurne Brussel Kuurne a few days ago ...
Excellent opinion on the sharp edges of the band-clamp, I think the long bolt is the likely cause, as a mechanic, you wouldn’t feel it crushing the carbon and it could do substantial damage quickly
Love the classic Top Gear reference to start the video.
YES! Someone got it! One in a thousand you are mate. Classic Jezza.
Saw these clamps in the canyon build video, was wondering why they used something different, like u said why redesign a safety-critical component if you don't have to. They just did it because of the square handlebar end, which I can't really think of a reason to have anyway....
The risks of deviating from a time proven clamp for a non-OEM solution for a few cm of sqaure shaped drop? How did that ever get approval. Mad.
Can confirm that the explanation of the issues with Canyon's proprietary clamp is very accurate - and probably a bigger problem than stated. Even if you don't damage the handlebar when tightening, any crash or force applied to the hoods that would normally make it slip will cause the bolt to dig into and (probably) damage the bar. Also, it's important to note that use of this clamp isn't limited to the Aeroad. I found out it's used on the Grail as well when I went to replace a shifter that broke in a fall and found significant damage to the handlebar.
Great analysis. Note that some handlebar stems have a similar lack-of-radius problem where the stem edges contact the bar. The sharp, straight edge of the stem digs right into the handlebar, causing a potential failure point. Especially since the bar flexes under load, such as when sprinting. And, this is not theoretical. I experienced a carbon bar failure on the bar surface where the sharp stem edge contacted it. That's despite using a Park Tools calibrated preset torque wrench on the stem bolts, and tightening gradually "in layers" and in the correct bolt pattern order. Now I only buy stems with radiused edges, and I don't use carbon bars anymore.
That clamp looks way more complex to manufacture than a simpler potentially safer one, but it looks like the design of the Canyon band is actually to avoid the edge from biting in as it's not straight, it looks tapered so the edges will meet at the curve at roughly 90 degrees (at least that would be the idea). Those canyon clamps also look like the edges are rounded, not the shiny sharp metal of the Shimano setup.
Now that MVDP demonstrated the failure maybe something will get done about it.
Let's see what Canyon is going to do about the seatpost
@davidoffon Didn't see the race, but most likely on a Canyon Ultimate, their replacement until the Aeroad debacle is resolved.
Van Der Poel gets all over his bars. He rides with a flatter back angle than most, most of the time....which brings center of gravity forwards. He also sites on the front 1/3 of the saddle for long periods. When climbing he uses the drops more than most. and when sprinting, he rocks the bike more than most. I believe his stem length is 120mm. He's 184cm and 75kg, and when sprinting out of the saddle he gets more lateral shift of his pelvis which is counterbalanced by more stress through the bars.
Yet another example that aggressive riders should use alloy bars.
In the carbon era, I've seen at least 6 carbon bars break during sprints, and never an alloy bar.
@@username8644
Agree. If the bars break, you are not riding for at least 3 months.
Tightening carbon bars to spec often delaminates carbon layers. Most professional mechanics do not torque to spec, but a few Nm below. And with repetitive tightening and loosening, the carbon layers are further delaminated.
@@username8644
Yes, you will find most pros and experienced riders share your perspective re where carbon components.
The great majority of racers are carrying at least 5 kg of excess fat and even muscle.
They should be looking at optimizing their body for more efficient acceleration and climbing. Many do not realize Chris Froome's dramatic improvement around 2011 when he joined Team Sky was due significantly to stripping muscle from his trunk and upper limbs, and getting his bodyfat % under 10% for the full year. It would drop under 6% during the GT season.
Good observation on the superiority of the Shimano bolt design. Back in the pre-brifter olden days, pressed steel brake lever clamps featured a captive nut, with an M6 cheesehead or cap screw running through the brake lever. Look at old pair of 80s era alloy bars, and you'll likely find witness marks from an overtightened brake lever on the outside radius of the bend. The bolt end would literally bore into the bars, leaving distinctive circular cuts. The risk posed by the Canyon design is more than theoretical.
great and thoughtful analysis there PT.
looking at the clamps across several shimano levers in the last ten-twenty years, it looks like they evolved from a solid one piece, to a form of two slim stripes. seems compliant though.
I think having the slots allow a bit of conformity to the curved profile, they learnt that over time. Its certainly not for weight saving, probably less than 1g!
@@PeakTorque exactly. i think shimano have had enough lessons learnt through bad experience on critical components over the years; crank, brakes...
@@PeakTorque brakes manufacturer did safety test YES
Handlebar manufacturer did safety test YES
Aftermarket accessory manufacturer NO safety test, eg bracket, ceramic ball bearings
The Campagnlo clamp has a semi rolled lip in order to help prevent it from digging in.
I will be breaking out the Dremel and putting a radius on any clamps going on a set of carbon bars. Enjoyed that analysis.
The SRAM design is a bolt design too, with threads in the clamp. So potentially the bolt can contact the bar too. They are different from the campy/shimano clamps too.
Trust our proprietary standards they said.
And then their own bar, with their own clamp, put on by pro-level mechanics, fails catastrophically…
I'd never buy a bike with any proprietary design. I want: round seatpost, round standard head tube and headset, round handlebar with separate stem, pressfit BB86 or threaded BSA bottom bracket.
"Pro level mechanics" yeah thats the problem, they hate torque wrenches because they think they are to good for them & they can "feel" how much they are torquing, problem is, look at the MVDP bike build video at 6:08 th-cam.com/video/a-UU1Owduq0/w-d-xo.html
Hard to tell how hard that dude is torquing up that bolt but it looks pretty firm since A) Look at the strain on his finger & wrist, looks way more than 4-6nm B) Did the torx key "dig in" to the bolt material? The way he have to wiggle out the torx key; that only happens to me when i really really tighten a bolt as hard as i can
@@Jeppelelle It's absolute BS that "pro mechanic" can tell the proper torque with his wrist strength. You just can't because everyone's got different strength. When I was an aircraft airframe mechanic in military, we always had inspector who made sure that we use calibrated torque wrench for tightening critical bolts of the airframe. Improper torque of bolts can cause things to fall off or cause stress cracks.
Granted that bicycles don't get subjected to harsh stress, torque, and vibrations like airplanes while they're moving, but due to "fragile" nature of carbon fiber parts, proper torque shouldn't be ignored.
@@Reanimator999 Yep, it would be fun to make an experiment, tell 50 random people & 50 "pros"/bike mechanics to "hand torque" a seatpost clamp to 4nm or hoods to 6nm, i would bet good money on that not even 10% of the people would even get within 1-2nm of the correct torque consistently, 4nm is so little force that i think both of the groups would think they applied way to little force & thus proceed to overtigthen it & i don't think the result between the groups would be significantly different. So yeah, seeing this dude using his armstrenght to tighten a bolt anyone can tighten with low wrist strength....well yeah in combination with carbon fibers notoriously clamping "fragility" (for lack of a better word/term) is probably not a good combo
@@Jeppelelle Exactly my thought as well. I remember the crash of one of the AG2R riders in a TT. They swapped out some part of the handle bar the night before or he morning of the TT, something not to spec and he introduced himself to the tarmac...
Adrie Vanderpoel, his dad, said in Belgian media that Mathieu hit a car during Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne. He rode the same bike in Le Samyn. So yeah every carbon handlebar could brake after a crash like that.
This year's Paris Roubaix: can a canyon finish??!
Use the ultimate. Or the endurace. Good, simple bikes.
@@PeakTorque or a Grail..... I'll get me coat.
If a bike can withstand those explosive uphill sprints during Strade Bianche, then i'm sure Paris Roubaix isn't going to be a problem.
I added some rubber gaskets on the Shifter level clamps. The rubber not only protects the carbon bend but you can now add the proper torque and the Levers will not slip as the rubber sticks around the carbon. 70 cents to solve this problem.
You probably already know this but Campag. does stamp a radius into the edges of their lever clamps. They have been doing this for many years - all the way back to the 8 speed era at least.
You're a legend for this one, Peak Torque.
OK, now that I've had time to look at my handlebars here's what I've found. I have the Canyon aeroad CFR. I unwrapped the bars and looked at the bars and the clamps. The bars are perfectly round in the area defined as where you can attach the levers. The gauge I have can't detect anything by measuring all up and down and from every angle. Also, there was no marring at all where the clamp was initially installed, not even a difference in the shine so the campher on the edge of the clamp seems to have been more than enough. No marring. I think the pinned clamp is better than the stock clamp because it looks to me like it spreads the pressure around the bar more evenly.
I wish I could report something that looked wrong because I'd be more confident of a quick fix, but since I can't, all I can say is, everything looks very well done. It may turn out that MVP's bike's failure was just a fluke and the design is just fine. In the meantime I have a couple of other bikes that ride just fine.
Canyon engineers definitely missed out the ‘proof’ in fool proof.
Danny Shearer, they sure nailed the "fool" part of fool proof, lol! ... I couldn't resist....
German engineering has gone down hill since WW2, that's when Germany basically stopped being German since it's an occupied country ever since
@@StopTheRot I highly recommend "Why We Fight" and "Live Bravely and Die Courageously". Or anything by Alfred Rosenberg, Kurt Eggers or Heinrich Himmler.
@@StopTheRot my other post got deleted lmao
Other aspects to consider: 1- handle bars manufacturers have different bends, some have flat surfaces or reinforced the area where the clamps are place; some manufacturers will state if the stems are carbon bar friendly or not, 3- Shimano could also place the clamps In a ceramic stone polisher to remove the sharp edges, 4 obey torque specs for carbon anything!!!!!
I am a 250lbs cyclist, I have use carbon bars on my xc bike and carbon extensions on my TT bike for years with no failures
I use to use a carbon base bar but it would slip if I hit a bad pot hole or railroad crossing, I switched to aluminum just for peace of mind
Just great, informative content. Thank you. Obvs Canyon have moved quickly, so that’s good to see.
First time I saw this collapsable handlebar, I said this is a one-way road to SnapCity...
The FMEA is so simple yet so effective. I need to apply it to my life decisions in general.
It seems dumb but it is effective. Show your fmea chart to your wife/gf/bf. Avoids lengthy discussion.
@@PeakTorque if it was only that simple.
I added some rubber gaskets on the Shifter level clamps. The rubber not only protects the carbon bend but you can now add the proper torque and the Levers will not slip as the rubber sticks around the carbon.
Interesting. I reckon the attaching zone you can see marked on the handlebar, yellow lines, is where the joint is placed. Did the bar fail THERE, or where the joint ends high/low on the bar, possibly creating stress riser?? Why not use some epoxy to glue strips of abrasive paper onto the front part of the attaching zone, creating higher friction to keep STI levers in position? Possibly also to the rear side of the bar, to keep clamp in place? That way, you could use lower clamping force. I know it´s a bugger when levers slip, especially the left. My Ergopower did, and front brake was adjusted close to the rim, having me to fight a constant front braking.. Not racing, though. Rgr
One of the strongest men breaks a part in a technical sport... I want back the newspapers before covid.
Really Quick and Dirty FMEA - shouldn't there be a hand lettered caption "by a 5 year old" somewhere on thiis page?
Canyon issues a "stop-ride". I'll call it the Peak Torque and Hambini effect.
You can't make a radius on the clamp edges during stamping. No way of 'swaging' those sharp corners since you'd be moving (instead of removing) material, you'd just deform the corners. That radius needs material removal hence machining or grinding, that's why they don't do it as it would increase cost
Campagnolo does actually radius their clamps and the correct orientation is indicated. Never had an issue with them on carbon, have had one Deda 35 bar break from SRAM though. As a soon to be mechanical engineer I really appreciate your ability to explain the nuances of the design process for the real life application. Being a tinkerer does not make someone an engineer, takes years of going through methods, processes and reviews.
At the same time, a lifelong tinkerer may be more capable than an inexperienced engineer.
Excellent video! Really great stuff.
Related to this...BULLETIN TO ALL BAR MANUFACTURERS: in a perfect world ALL decent road bars would come with both centering marks for the stem AND marks at the transitions for the shifters. I have some bars that have these and it makes setup/install a breeze! I know, I know. I can just pull out a tape measure/level, etc. But, as I wrote, in a perfect world all manufacturers would put these on the bars. Fingers crossed!
MVDP's father said on Belgian tv that this specific bike (more specific the handlebar) had collided with a car at an earlier race. So that probably didn't help.
Sram clamp bands are radiussed. Except on Red, where they have a fancy one piece unit.
3:00 you won't get much of an edge radius on that 18g steel strap. A soft aluminium sleeve, all the way round the tube, sticking axially out the ends by a few mm, would remove the crack initiation site from the structural part of the bars.
Give me a pair of alu bars anyday.. there are plenty semi aero formed alu bars out there anyway (Pro LT Ergo is my preference)
Great points! We also need to keep in mind that the cycling industry, like many industries, is built around the integration of many small parts, some new some old. In the rush to differentiate ones product, often times well established design practices are overlooked or dismissed. Sometimes because they really weren’t understood in the first place. IMO, carbon has no place in handle bars/steerers to begin with. The point loads associated with those items are simply to great and variable across the ecosystem of components. It’s like playing wack-a-mole, when you address one issue, another pops up. Given the materials available and weight saving involved, does it really make sense?
He hit a car at Kuurne Brussel Kuurne with the same bike, according to his father. That's why it broken.
That sounds very weird to me
Super interesting and well-balanced, thank you! Granted, MVDP is able to rip apart stuff the average Joe can’t, but I wonder if a consumer after riding a bike for 5+ years might have this outcome due to fatigue as well?
Great video as usual, but the question I’d like to raise is why Canyon’s bar drop ends are squared off instead of round. If that is the reason for their going to a proprietary lever clamp, that would seem to be an easy fix for the future as they can go back to Shimano’s clamps... even if the edges are not chamfered. 😊
At roughly Midnight GMT March 4th, Canyon put out a notice to stop riding the Aeroads equipped with these bars. Conventional, non-engineer wisdom tells me this failure isn't an isolated incident. And of course, don't forget about the seat post clamp....
These companies need to redirect their marketing budgets to the engineering departments.
All very interesting just to throw it in the mix could it have been poor carbon? His power pulling on the bars or did he hit the bars at some time that we don't know about? Yes the clamp is most likely culprit to start the failure.
Could you do a vid explaining the benefits of a frame that's been well-manufactured with good tolerances? It is just a case of higher bb efficiency, longer working life, and less prone to failure, or are there other benefits too?
So that's a dodgy seat post and STI clamps. Is there anything that Canyon got right with the new Aeroad?
Hmmmmmm. Self answered question sir. Or siress
Marketing 😁
@@xxiipp And won't be winning anything else soon as Canyon have asked teams to use the previous gen Aeroad and the Ultimate for now.
@@tomaldous5641 are you serious?
adrie VDP (mathieu's dad) said that he rode with the same handlebars against a car at kuurne-brussel-kuurne
But why didn’t they change it?
The interface between these bands and the back side of the handlebars has always bugged me and now I see why. 😕
Its a bad design kept under wraps. Literally
@@PeakTorque what would stop me from filing it round just a little so that there is no sharp edge digging into the carbon
@@larsborgman3443 I guess nothing. Another commenter said they do the same thing in these comments and Peak Torque said they do it as well. Look for "Shunt Harvey Ricafort"s comment
Why do canyon do all this weird proprietary stuff? Like, why does a handlebar need to have a cross section like that and why does a seatpost need to be so flexy? At least now that it's backfired bike companies might learn. If it ain't broke...
In product design you need to evaluate risks right. Does the benefit of having a proprietary, square shaped drop outweigh the risks of using a non-standard non-OEM part? No!
Sales wants it, r&d says yes but... Sales dep commands to continue anyway. Story of a friend
What is the benefit?
Interesting analysis! Can't see the benefit of the new clamp at all. Why? For sure it's heavier than the titanium Shimano one. Why make a non round handlebar end anyway?
As for the chamfer: I use cheap chinese handlebars. Crashed a few times, the STI levers got banged, they moved. Not a mark to make note of on the handlebar. I think it's very rare to see such a failure, I don't remember any at all! Of course the bars might break on crash, but that's to be expected, I'd think!
It would be nice to see some finite element analysis about the two clamp designs of how they are able to cope with slightly over/under sized handlebars. Not sure about the actual tolerancing of the bars/clamps, but simulate something like nominal, ±0.2, ±0.5mm. Somehow i strogly suspect that a strip of sheet metal wraps around any size in a given range nicely whereas the machined construction is simply too rigid and quickly ends up having only 1-2 point contacts when clamped on handlebars which are not PERFECTLY fitting into the clamps. Then regardless the chamfers/fillets added around the edges there will be some serious stress concentration.
The bike behind you on the wall mount: if you have the gears in the smallest sprocket and smallest chainring, the springs in the deraillers are more relaxed.
Oh my goodness I never realized the severity of clamps on carbon 🤯 but can a buffer be used between the clamp and bar ie.. piece of inner tube or plastic shim?
Bruce or even Michael are available when not announcing the fighters at either UFC or Boxing showcase events.
Inner tube probably too soft but a plastic shim could only help I think.
Could easily be too much torque on the bolts + a hit in the truck + a massively powerful dude pulling on it for 6 hours a day. Agree the right profile will make a big difference to the reliability.
HI Peak Torque,
what do you think about the idea to file of the sharp edges of the STI clamp?
I planning to build up my own bike
Greeting Ossip
Has a bike firm come to you for consultancy yet? They should.
No
Clearly the Canyon engineers were just taught via zoom
I imagine MVDP's core was like, "while the bike may fail, I will not let you fail." *He finishes the race in Naruto running position.
The clamps are a bit brutal but so are some stems. I've filed and Dremeled away to smooth off contact points you reduce risk of risers.
God bless Canyon for giving opportunities to make educational content!
With all seriousness though the true problem might be that they rely on field testing too much and are involving custumers into that. Should I want to participate in Beta-testing, it better be non-critical fundraised software, not this.
So...Cayon designed both the composite bar AND designed the three piece clamp which is conducive to edge loading and stress risers?
How is this not bad engineering from Cayon?
@0:04 the classic English breakfast. Looks delish 😀👍
Dude, people have been putting their huge weight and force on brake levers with out of saddle climbing and sprinting since drop bars have been invented.
The bottom line is the bar is not designed to handle the stress.
As far a the clamp contact with the bar, that bar section could be wrapped with silicon tape. This will protect bar a decrease slippage. The mechanic can also file clamp edges to make a smooth chamfered edge.
FMEA reminds me of when I worked in automotive industry and used TOPS 8D to identify failure mode and corrective action. Happy days watching this video. from a CEng MIET
It always feels dumb brainstorming fmea. And this was very oversimplified 😬. But its a very valuable technique.
For what it’s worth: I have a few Campagnolo clamps for Centaur 10 speed levers (2012) in front of me.
The flat sheet itself is bent outwards on the side of the clamp opposite of the bolt.
So at least one component maker is aware of this issue.
Lots of talk of a team mechanic not using torque wrenches in a video?
Edit: I went digging for this video, the only one I can find is by 'road bike channel' TH-cam channel which builds up a 2021 mvdp bike. They don't use torque wrenches on the hood clamps. It is not clear to me whether this is mvdps bike or just a hobby bike though.
they are quick to blame everyone else
You see this all the time in dream build videos on TH-cam (by professional or not so professional mechanics)
Solid vid. Along with everything you’ve said, I reckon the mechanic has over tightened at the request of van der Poel. As you said, a standard nm manufacturer recommendation will result in Mathieu’s levers to move with his power.
Canyon issues ‘stop ride’ notice to Aeroad owners following MVDP handlebar incident. Both their CFR and CLX SF models.
Couldnt you do an alu insert on the back of the curve of the handlebars and completely avoid this failure, gaining minimal weight?
In my mind the clamp would need to be bar specific, due to different radius and other variables. But if it truly is pennies, that is easier and probably way cheaper.
Just Canyon again - don’t understand how to do design for manufacture. It smacks of arrogance that they go an redesign parts from an established reputable component supplier rather than collaborate with them or design to fit what they intend to install.
What’s the bet they didn’t do a proper DVA on this as well.
I’d be deeply concerned about their adjustable bars as well; would you really trust them with bolted joint calculations?
I wouldn’t trust anything canyon anymore; I’d be constantly thinking ‘what next’ when riding anything they make.
Is the probability of the Canyon design to damage the bar by clamp edges not larger? The clamp seems much stiffer, the simpler clamps that also have slots in it seem more likely to bend to conform to the bar?
Can you investigate the SRAM clamp engineering?
With carbon it would be possible to add an extra lay up under the clamp area
Couple of questions: On one of the images of the clamp being installed, the bar had a zone marked for where to clamp. Do you know what reinforcement Canyon make to the bar there? Also, what merit is there to having a compliant layer between the clamp and the bar like a thin layer of rubber to equalize the loading across the surface?
Canyon have now announced a "Do Not Ride" notice for the Aeroad.
The clamp has not changed since they were invented, and I have been saying this for years. And why I use aluminum. And if the clamp is radiused it won't work. It is that edge that digs in. When I had carbon bars I put a grip tape, that adds friction on steps, on the back of the bar where the clamp digs. Moreover, to save weight, everyone is make parts unnecessarily thin, like the steerer tube issue. That area should thickened on every bar. And likewise for steerer tubes.
The only clamp I've seen so far that's safe is the one on the Rotor Uno/1x13 levers, they're carbon, they have rounded edges and they clamp really well. My bars will slip in the stem before the levers move.
a chamfer would be very easy to mod into an existing clamp with some sandpaper wrapped around your finger
Can you make a video regarding the specialized allez sprint, if there is anything to be said about it (it is stiff and "cheap"), maybe the D'alusio smartweld. And how can i find out what the quality of a carbon frame is?
Am I the only one wondering why Canyon is designing themselves into a seemingly unnecessary corner? Why are the bar ends square?!
Exactly. It doesn't outweigh the risk of choosing a non-standard non-OEM part, with no redundancy.
@@PeakTorque Also worth pointing out, (IIRC and if those marketing bike build vids are to be believed) those team bikes never see a torque wrench. Team mechs who probably think they've been doing this long enough not to have to bother...
One thing to remember about mechanics, is that if a pro rider says my shifter hood is slipping or rotating (maybe because of poor clamp design 🤔) then what are they going to do? Do they have time to apply paste right before a stage? Is the paste not working? What immediate options does the mechanic have? I think they are probably going to increase the torque rather than tell the pro rider to just lump it. I mean, it is impossible to get all the information here in the peanut gallery. Certainly there are mechanics that are not the most thoughtful, and if they are ignoring manufacturers guidelines then that is a significant problem.
@@hhmachine4254 What about for promo videos for a new bike being put together for the first time at the beginning of the season? They certainly have the time then. Otherwise it sounds like you're making a case for some fairly gross negligence that could put the racer and his competitors in some serious risk.
@@hhmachine4254 Very good points!
What is a good torque when clamping the Shimano STI levers to a carbon handlebar? Is there a recommended torque # or just go with the least amount of tightness so long the lever doesn't slip? Is grip paste also good to use?
Carbon grip paste isn't always ideal because, the particles can separate from the grease. And sometimes, you're basically just smearing on grease with hardly any grit and you'll lower the clamping friction. Better to use an alumina powder in a low strength Loctite, and make your own paste. That really increases the friction as the loctite cures when its clamped.
Shimano only say 6-9nm, dont under tighten, and to see canyons bar spec
@@Mike0 According to the Shimano manual it's 6-8nm, page 7: si.shimano.com/api/publish/storage/pdf/en/dm/ST0002/DM-ST0002-05-ENG.pdf
@@Jeppelelle There is no way that's for a carbon bar though
@@YuriThorpe 6-8nm. They say directly.under that, that it's important not to under tighten carbon bars
According to his father, Adrie, Mathieu crashed into a car during the previous race (Kuurne) with his handle bar and he used the same bike (and thus handle bar) in the following race. The carbon then failed due to the impact on the previous race and the harsh ride over the cobbles.
If that's the truth, what good is it doing now? Canyon should have under contractual obligation all factory teams replace compromised components immediately after a crash or impact. Especially in Carbon. That's SOP in Motorsport where composites are widely used. But instead they'd rather another PR nightmare? Hmmm.
@@PeakTorque I don't know exactly what you are implying but I am not saying anyone did this on purpose. I am saying, according to Adrie, his father and member of the staff of his team, he rode into a car, and they didn't replace it because he didn't crash. If he would have crashed they would always replace parts or the entire bike if necessary. But because he didn't fall, they didn't think of that. I am not saying all of this is true, I am just saying that's what he said on Belgian national television.
@@TGShunai yeh i hear ya. And cheers for the info. Seeing as his Dad is a member of staff, and knew about it, he had no excuse not to get them changed! His son's safety on the line. Mad.
You should have made a reference to the TOP QUALITY handlebar you have in your hands! RITCHEY WCS series
Great bar, so stiff for aluminium. And safe!