Nice review, but a word of critique. When comparing several mice simultaneously, please use less pronouns like 'it', 'this one', 'that one' and just use names, don't be afraid of tautology. There were occasions where I couldn't see the gesture, that pointed to the mouse in topic or just didn't understand out of context.
Ha, tautology. That's not the right word, I guess Anaphora-based redundancy would probably be the right one, but yea this is a very good tip. Anaphora is only good in circumstances where you deal with "it's obvious which thing I'm talking about", ie when you're only handling one thing. In a 38 minute comparison video... referential clarity is certainly NOT a given.
@@MrRedstonefreedom Yeah, I thought there should be a more accurate word, but didn't know about it. Guessed tautology would be close enough to understand the point.
One thing I really like about this video is it continues to demonstrate how ergonomics are such a personal thing. I have the Delux RGB vertical mouse they showed but didn't really like. I absolutely love it and I use it without the palm rest. I have one of those super huge gaming mouse pads. I tend to do a combination of claw grip and arm move with that mouse and it works great set at 1200dpi. I also agree with the comment about the need to look out for the issue of a vertical mouse putting too much pressure on the corner wrist bone. While I love the vertical mouse, it did take some getting used to and teaching myself to rest most of the length of the side of my hand on the mouse pad next to the vertical mouse to avoid the corner wrist bone issue.
I love mine too. So much more comfortable than a standard gaming mouse, and great price, too. I use the palm rest but still competitive at FPS. It just takes practice. Wish there were more vertical gaming mice available.
I have been using vertical mice for about 3 years now and while the Logitech Vertical made the pain in my arms a lot worse, I have found relief in the Evoluent D/4. It is true that the Evoluent are a bit flimsy and the design very retro they are extremely comfortable to use!
Y'all were acting pretty goofy at first, but y'all came together and did the absolute best product breakdown review for anything I have ever watched. Bravo!
I have small hands and I have the MX vertical from Logitech. I've been using that mouse for the last three years and it's pretty comfortable, you don't have to have large hands to be able to use it. The vertical mouse and split keyboard is what stopped my arm and hand from hurting.
I've been using the big wired DELUX for a couple years and I love it. It's super comfortable even in my medium size hands, I am just as competitive at FPS, and it works fine at low sensitivities too. It's not as silly as they make it look in this video. Best of all, no wrist pain.
We're happy that you like it. Luis is a bit over the top sometimes. He does the same with our own products, the smallest of things can be a dealbreaker for him 😅
Same here. I have the J-TECH version with slightly different buttons. It's by far the most comfortable vertical I've tried but it is cheap. I really wish someone would make a higher quality one in the same style so I don't have to buy a new one every year.
I did that with the Contour Mouse many years ago (seriously like 2007). Medium seemed too small; traded it for Large, which was too big (and too big was worse).
Now that mouse components have been miniaturized, I think there might be a better solution than a vertical mouse: A pen-mouse which remains standing in place when you release it. I hacked together a prototype last week, and so far it's the most natural and ergonomic input device I've ever used.
I am a user of Evoluent. Besides the shape, I find having 3 fully customable finger buttons to be a deal breaker. It makes so much more sense to have a dedicated button for double clicking - otherwise the index finger is disproportionately overloaded, doing all the clicks and double clicks
@@DygmaLab I would not complain about the materials. The mouse has worked for 3 years / 60 hours per week in office applications and still looks like new. Nothing is wobbly or producing extra noise when squeezing either. Design-wise, I would appreciate softer switches, but that is a personal preference I believe. What I do not like is that I cannot use the mouse properly, when the hand is relaxed - the pinky keeps rubbing against the table. To prevent that I would prefer a much larger wing. I had to craft my own attachment out of cardboard to compensate for a small wing
This is a good watch! Though I feel like the moral of the story here is that there isn't really any "outstanding" ergonomic mice on the market. Each and every one of these have a compromise somewhere along the way, whether it be in the features, form, or quality. Then on top of that, the quality-to-cost ratio is generally just not very good, where it feels like you're paying a premium just for the shape while the rest of the mouse features are second-rate. There is one mouse in particular I've had a keen interest in called the "Penguin Mouse" that I had the opportunity to test some time back. It takes a pretty unique take on the ergonomic mouse by changing the grip to what is essentially a gun grip! The primary mouse buttons are situated like gun triggers with the middle scroll wheel nested between them and there's a wide palm rest for the hand to rest on. It basically takes the more "joystick" like mouse design from the few you've tested in this video, but takes the concept a full step further. Conceptually it's a super interesting mouse and I found it exceptionally comfortable to hold and use but like many options on this list, you pay a premium for the shape alone while everything else like the sensor, mouse buttons, and scroll wheel are just really subpar. But the _concept_ of the mouse I personally feel is very much worth exploring for the potential! If you're interested in looking at it yourself, here's a video about it! If you end up trying it out, I'd be curious what your thoughts are on it. th-cam.com/video/_UXVb25JY8E/w-d-xo.html Thanks again for this video! Just like this channel in general, this is incredibly helpful in filling in an otherwise pretty empty knowledge base.
I’ve been using a Penguin mouse lately, and yeah, the build quality and features aren’t great But the form is interesting. For a while I was holding it almost like a gear shift. It’s stable enough to use that way with your hand on top of the “joystick”. Not how it’s intended, but the buttons stretch reachable so it worked. And that put my hand right at the height to go over to the tented Raise. Keeping my elbow straight. Interesting possibilities
Thank you for sharing this! It's like you said, the current market doesn't have an obvious model that we would recommend to everyone because it really depends on what you want 😢 Do you want something that looks good? Wireless? Comfortable and silent clicks? None of them has all of this. The idea is that we can fill that gap with our mystery device, a perfect solution for all those "problems" 😏 I've heard before about the Penguin but haven't tried that. I'll forward to the team to check if we can grab one to check.
I have the Evoluent, I started with medium and thought it felt a bit too small for my hand. So i swapped for a large... now it's too big! I feel like goldilocks I'm really excited to figure out why there's so many vertical mice lying around in the Dygma office... :D
They started appearing out of nowhere... 🐭 We actually wanted to make this video for all of you and it is also part of a resear... Oh, I can't say that yet? Sorry... 🤐
What bugs me about this kind of mouse is that if you use a high cursor speed, then the tiny movement of the mouse that occurs when you click can sometimes make you miss what you're trying to click on.
Just seeing this now after getting a pale grey Logitech Lift and you guys nailed it on the head. This is the best vertical (or even horizontal mouse) I've had.
Nice! I have a Lift too and even though my hands are "too big" according to the it works just fine. Super comfortable and definitely one of the best when we consider build quality and materials used 😻
@@ulquiorra7446 I have a Zelotes C-18 and I don't like it and don't use it. Currently I'm using a VXE Dragonfly R1 which is superior in any aspect to any vertical mice in the market. Verical mice are a stupid fad.
I actually love the J-tech pink mouse, honestly imo the glossy is sometimes better if you want more grip with your hand, i used it for few years & still going strong, can't complain
can we get a video on trackballs? I know that they're a niche category of mice - but are definitely an ergonomic option (especially the Logitech MX Ergo Plus)
Thanks for taking the time to make this video. I decided on the J-Tech Digital V638. It arrived today and I instantly adapted to it. No learning curve!!
Now that you mention it, it's true. I think the editing has quite a lot to do. We had almost two hours of footage and we had to cut it down a lot. But maybe also, as Luis was the "expert" about the matter, he interrupted Dominique a bit too much to make clarifications. Thank you for pointing it out. We'll be more aware next time.
Deluxe seeker M618XSD is my favorite mouse so far. It has good poling rate up to 1000hz, thumb wheel, li-ion battery, can work by wire, bt and 2.4Ghz, and even backlight. Every button can be remapped, I remapped rhumb wheel to vertical one which is extremely useful) Before this one I had Trust voxx, it has better ergonomics but solwer sensor and does not have thumb wheel)
Thank you so much for your comment! I've been fed up with regular mouse shapes for the past few months now but I just couldn't find anyone mentioning polling rates when talking about vertical mice. As gaming is the mouses main purpose for me, a good sensor is the only criteria it needs to meet. You're comment hopefully just ended my search so thanks again!
@@scruffex3736 Not sure whether vertical mouse is good choice for gaming, at least ones that require fast and accurate movement. They usually heavier and you use other, probably untrained muscles to drag it which makes it feel clumsy. But there is a possibility that it`s just my experience and your will be different)
If you design a better mouse than the lift... I would probably buy it. Accuracy and stability are key. Also, if you just prevent putting your wrist flat to the desk somehow, it would be a big deal ... so you don't pinch the vains to the desk. You might not have to go completely vertical. ... also try out the ms sculpt. The lift is also no grippy enough... it is sometimes hard to "lift" it (claw grip). I think somekind of 15-20* angle might be enough.
@@DygmaLab I've got to say... actually after a few days of getting used to ... the lift feels prety comfortable ... I've got fairly big medium hands (almost 19cm). I do notice an increased resitance of sliding because of more friction at the bottom in comparison with the logitech m720. Also I use a simple mousepad to dampen the pressure of the wristknuckle. I sometimes switch with a gel-pad ... but havn't decided yet if this is better or not... because of more contact of the wrist sinking into the gel.
So... is this a new channel?? It is the only explanation I can find on why they don't have more subscribers and viewers. That was a really nice video!!
Great review, congrats. I'm from Brazil and I've had a MX vertical for 6 years. I opened it for the first time this week, the left button was working badly. I was surprised by the size of the battery, I expected it to be bigger because it is excellent, the battery lasts around 3 to 4 months in my usage. I work with electrical engineer, with CAD design software, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. The buttons are excellent for adjusting shortcuts, the top one I use as “Enter”, the side ones as “esc” and “delete” for more agility. As said in the video, it fits very well in my hands, which are large, but I also recommend it for those with smaller hands, the other Logitech model has no comparison, the MX vertical has a durable and well-adherent rubber pad, its body is very resistant and it is a battery and not a battery. I watched the video looking for another option but probably when it can't hold up anymore, I'll buy another one.
I have been using Delux M618 for more than 6 years. A cable/wired version. I am with my second mouse right now, the wheel on the old one broke a year ago. Six years of heavy use should justify this mouse's durability. The wheel has the ability to sweep left-right, you can click it for a click-drag maneuver. The grip and movement are conveniently acceptable. I only have one problem with it, in my case I cannot customize its auxiliary thumb-side buttons. Delux has many copies, with identical design but different independent brands. Although the different brands share its comfortable grip design but the clicking and cursor movement experience can be under Delux's quality. I use Macbook and I am doing a lot of photo editing. Vertical mouse has been very helpful in reducing my wrist strain. I tried other vertical mice but many of them are either too slim (I need some mass to hold) or not vertical enough, so far Delux M618 design fits my palm better.
Thank you very much for sharing your experience with us 😊 Also, great to hear you found a mouse that adapts to your hand, that's the complicated part. Like you point, and Luis mentions, the most important is being able to test a lot and find one that does not compromise the grip. Glad to hear you're improving from those wrist pains!
First of, whoever picked the lofi final fantasy mix for the background music needs a raise. I'm a medium hands claw grip, and I've used the anker and am now with the zelotes c-18, the scroll wheel is starting to go after one year of daily 12 hour use so I'll be getting something new soon. One thing that I want to add is that the "joystick" on top of it is a complete gimmick and is not a joystick at all, its a clickable d-pad at best, it is at an angle and on top of the mouse making so that you are either using that or using the mouse so I would buy the cheaper non "joystick" version. Regarding the use of buttons, I use them very often for the backwards/fowards commands in the browser, but not a lot in gamming as I used to do with horizontal mice. I think that something I would like to see is a mouse with one button on top and one on the bottom that is intended to be used with the knuckle of the thumb by sliding it on the mouse's surface. There could be space for more buttons on the click side of the mouse especially for use with pinky or ring finger. On a separate note, some brands (delux does this) are starting to have hadn size and grip reccomendations with their mice. Great video and I'll be waiting for the Dygma vertical claw and vertical palm mice
I tried to buy an identical version of this joystick mouse with different branding and the scroll wheel arrived broken. If you are (or anyone is) thinking of trying a different brand or wondering if you mashed it in any way. It's not you. The wheel is defective. We need fully redesigned internals built in this form factor.
Man, this was a great review. I appreciate that he judged the cheap mouses for what they are... cheap. They can still be viable if you don't have the budget for a Logitech mouse. I been using the Anker and it's very decent.
Thank you very much! The budget is always important, no matter the product, and the thing about mice is that the one with the correct shape and size for you can cost 10$; always try and test the items, there are surprises, like your Anker, in any model
Right in all counts, Logitech's connectivity is spotless and the software is very intuitive. If within budget, is one of the best options, you have great taste 😊
this man has a reviewing talent , I really loved the way he explains every thing about every model and viewing his opinion in a very objective way ,my admire and respect to this review ,I didn't see any professional review like this for a long time. 👍
The HP 920 Ergonomic Vertical Mouse Wireless looks to have come out after your video. It is really good. The magnetically attaching wrist pad is large, so your hand just rests unless you are actively moving the mouse or clicking. No lifting of the hands at all to use it and no rubbing on the table. It is a louder click that is snappy like any typical non-soft click mouse.
Woo! Hopefully that "No Particular Reason" is something I've been asking for since I got my Raise back when it was first announced. I can only imagine how good an ergo mouse from Dygma can be. That said, I bought a cheap Anker awhile ago, it's okay, but ultimately there just wasn't enough useful features like my gaming mouse. So if you are working on a new future product I'd love to have several buttons in the groove that the thumb rests in for macros and other nice features for gaming and work. I know the Raise and Defy have so many wonderful key combos that make life easier, but having some built into the mouse would be incredible as well. Thanks for reading. Can't wait for the Defy to finally be in my hands. Good luck with everything! EDIT: Also wanted to add that your attention to detail and analysis of what's wrong with current products is wonderful.
Thank you, Dane! You know us, we want to make something excellent and that's going to impact the whole market, that's why we're taking extra care to make it right 💪
My idea of an ideal mouse consists several factors, and ergonomics happens to be just one of them. As a gamer, I find additional buttons to be utterly essential. Ideal would have 3-5 buttons accessible instantly by the thumb, 1-2 smaller secondary buttons available to the left click finger, and 1-2 smaller secondary buttons available to the right click finger (which I haven't ever actually seen). These are also very useful for workflows as well, because during workflows you can map special keys to the mouse, so you can, say, CTRL-drag with just one hand. The value of the extra buttons on the mouse is so high while gaming that I practically always have to sacrifice good ergonomic design in order to have the value of the extra buttons. This is especially frustrating because there are so many additional ergonomic factors which contribute to ideal ergo function, and the mouse arm definitely starts hurting after a few hours of gaming with the boys. If Dygma decides to jump into the ergo mouse game, I'd like to BEG you for a gaming mouse with lots of extra buttons. But I also perfectly understand the challenges of product design. You've got trade-offs when you want to introduce features. That Gaming mouse with the control stick is an example of a failure to take that into account. it isn't really possible to keep using that joystick while picking up the mouse briefly to move it.
Thank you for your comment Leo. Like all the products in Dygma we want to accomplish something great with the mouse too. We want to have as many features as possible, and we want them all well implemented too ❤️ Don't worry, we will create a great product 💪
Got an MX vertical for the ergonomics (didn't realise there were so many other options) and while I truly enjoy it, the greatest feature I've found is the software it comes with "logi+ options". Working on mac and PC at same time for work, using the software, you can hover on the edge of the screen and the mouse will transfer to the other OS computer. (You won't have to click the preset button to switch between PC's anymore, thus saving precious tie if you are wanting to be efficient at work. Thats not all, this phenomenal software also allows you to copy and paste between OS (before I had to use a local server, or thumb drive to transfer contents). Phenomenal time saving technology for me, with added bonus of ergonomics
This is the first video of yours that I have seen, and you won me over from the start with the great fairy background music placed oh so perfectly there.
This is great, before this video there was no comprehensive review of all vertical mice out there. But after watching this it's clear that what is out there is not sufficient, you guys clearly need to design your own
Due to some shoulder issues recently got a trackball mouse. After a short adaptation period I very much enjoy it! My shoulder gets some rest from mousing and as an added bonus the ball acts as a fidget toy during downtime.
I don't know where this numbers come from, but I know a lot left handed people and all of them use mouse with left hand. Maybe there are not many options with ergonomic mouses for lefties on the market, so that's why some of them decides to use right hand?
The numbers came from a survey we did when we were creating the Raise. It could be that this is enforced by the market not making good mice for lefties, though 🤔
I have a medium sized hand (based on Logitech sizing guide) and a palm grip. I've been using the Anker vertical mouse for a couple of years now. It's been okay. Battery life is pretty terrible. I have to replace the 2AA batteries every few months. And the scroll wheel is starting to wear out I suppose because it's very glitchy now, especially if you just want "one click" in either direction. It'll scroll down one then scroll back up quite frequently. Precise scrolling just isn't possible. I'm eyeing the Logitech Lift now. I didn't even know it existed until today and the price point of the MX Vertical kept me away from that in the past.
Oh yeah, the Lift is a bit cheaper than the MX Vertical and it should suit your medium hands just fine. We are also working on a solution ourselves but it's not coming in the near future unfortunately 🤐
FYI their are numerous right handed users that use the mouse in their left hands. Mainly people that work with numbers like accountants. They use the mouse with their left hand and the number pad with their right hand to enter numbers. not sure if your surveys would have picked up people like this
I have too many keyboards. If you make mice, I’d love to buy one or more. I am right handed but I use mice on my left hand to ease the burden on my right hand.
Cool! Normally vertical mouse are not ambidextrous though. We're working on a mystery device, but we are not creating a left-hand version. We've explained that it would be harder to produce that as we would have to meet the minimum order quantities and all that 😢
@@DygmaLab Thank you for the response. That is correct I've only tried found one southpaw vertical mouse. I typical use a trackball on my left. I would love to see what the mystery product is! I have enjoyed supported your company and loved my original dygma. Thanks!
Yeah, we have lots of users that use it this way. Some of them also go with vertical mouse in the middle of the split... 🤔 I guess things work differently for different people and usage.
Really good and informative video. I think they 2 host conversational style is great; it has a natural and welcoming feel that I prefer over the usual style of one person talking at the camera. Noticing about halfway through that the subtle BGM is a FF7 remix was also a nice touch. Didn't notice the music at first, but then said "Heeeeeey! I know that!" Keep up the good work, first video I've seen from this channel but it's an instant subscribe for me!
I have been using the Evoluent VerticalMouse 4 for years as a work mouse (I won't game on a vertical mouse). I have just bought the Logitech MX Vertical as I wanted to go wireless. I debated on going with the Lift b/c it's smaller and less expensive, but the dealbreaker was the Lift requires a AAA battery while the Vertical has a rechargeable battery. I'll take the latter any day. If I feel the Vertical is too big for me, then I may return and swap. Having said, that, wince I've been using the Evoluent, which is fairly big, for years. I hopefully won't have an issue.
I've been using the Zelotes C-18 for about 3 years now. In terms of shape it's pretty comfortable. No problem with the clicks, the DPI is good. I use it for gaming and don't have any problems with the sensor. My main gripe is that I've had 2 of these mice and the scroll wheel has broken on both fairly quickly. It will still scroll sometimes but not at a consistent rate, sometimes scrolling up instead of down. I'm not going to buy another one unless they fix that issue, switching to the Logitech Lift tomorrow.
I have Delux m618 Plus at office after one week of using I took of the palm rest and it works for me. In my case it's realy good and I'm satisfied. Sometimes I'm using Delux m618xsd also without palm rest and it's even little bit more comfortable.
Grease: well, everyone always has some grease on their hands. On glossy surfaces you at least see that and can easily clean it. Have you ever tried cleaning a matt mouse after you used it for a (longer) while? You will not see any dirt, but it is really grimey and also hard to clean. So from a cleanliness perspective, use a mouse with glossy surface! Numb pinky: Well, from what you described, that would mean that you or maybe anyone cannot use any vertical mouse in a claw grip in general. Lifting the mouse: Especially with a claw grip, you usually lift the mouse, and this is hardly possible with any vertical mouse (without pressing the buttons). Clicking: Clicking a vertical mouse means you have to make a counter pressure with your thumb and puts more strain on your lower arm and that can be a problem for some people, so vertical mouse are not more ergonomic for everyone in any case and thus they are not per se better, even though they are always presented in that way, that this hand position would be "normal" for everyone... it is not. So maybe better remove the adjective "ergonomic" from vertical mice, since a vertical mouse is not necessarily ergonomic for you.
Thank you for your feedback. As you point out, every decision you make has some pros and cons, and what's best for most people can be detrimental for you. Vertical mice are usually more ergonomic than normal ones, although there are some specific scenarios when they are not...
@@DygmaLab But that is why I think phrases like „usually more ergonomic“ are counterproductive, since what is ergonomic and what is helpful is depending on the person and their practice with the mouse. Alternatives to the standard mice, which are by far more various than only vertical mice, only then are „more ergonomic“, if you have problems with what you are using. I am pretty sure most people who use ergonomic mice have their hands far more often on their standard „not ergonomic“ keyboard without any issues. Though one can argue that in many or most cases the standard keyboard is more detrimental to your joint than the mouse.
Great video. I have to mention... that is not what OEM means, it kind of means the opposite of what you're describing. It's an abbreviation for Original Equipment Manufacturer. The best example I can think of is if you have an iPhone and are using the cable that shipped with the phone, that's the OEM cable. If you bought a cable from a random company on Amazon (whose name is probably a series of meaningless letters) it's a non-OEM cable. I currently have the shiny Evoluent mouse because I have massive hands and was looking for a comparison of their 3 models to see if I wanted to change for another model. You're right, the finish is pretty crappy, and after a while the chrome gets rubbed off and looks even worse. For me, the 3rd button is essential because I do 3D modeling and it's nice to have to navigate in 3D space, pressing in a scroll wheel for a middle mouse button pretty much sucks.
The point we're trying to make here is that there are OEM mice, where the model is identical and comes from the same factory, but different brands purchase it and modify certain details or elements in the firmware to personalize it. However, the underlying model remains the same 😊
Concerning gip styles, there is not only the distinction of claw grip and palm grip. Nearly more important is the difference between middle finger on rmb (index does lmb and mouse wheel) or ring finger on rmb (index does lmb, middle finger does mouse wheel). Most mice you can use with claw grip as well as with palm grip. However, there are only a very few mice that can be used with middle finger on rmb and claw grip, since this requires gripping the mouse between pinkie and thumb. However, most mice are designed to be hold with the ringfinger and thumb; they have a correspondingly suitable gripping shape for the ringfinger. This, however, usually lacks for the pinkie. Most vertical mice are also intended for middle finger on rmb use. With ringfinger on rmb, they require unnaturally lifting the hand and bending it upwards.
Oh yeah, there is also differences on finger placement in the mouse that we didn't mention, some people have been trying middle finger on the scroll and ring finger on RMB. Normally, people use the buttons the same way, index in the LMB and responsible for scrolling too, middle finger on the RMB. Of course this can change when moving to a vertical mouse 🤔
@@DygmaLab I agree, most people seem to use middle finger on rmb (index does scrolling), but I do not quite get why. Three buttons, three fingers to use them. I always wonder how middle finger on rmb users mark text while scrolling (i.e. when the text to mark extends the visiblearea). Yes, I know, shift key exists, but really?
This was such a nice concise review, but the audio was hard to hear for me, not sure if anyone else encountered that. At times the movement of the mouse was louder than his voice.
No joke about the Logitech hand sizing. I have a 19cm hand from first wrist wrist crease to top of middle finger, and I wear XL sized gloves. I tried the MX Vertical and the Lift at a store, and the MX was quite large even for me. I could use it in a palm grip, but even I had to reach a bit for the thumb buttons. The Lift was fine for me, even though they say it's meant for "small and medium" hands. Maybe the design idea is that the mouse should be completely palmed, and the sizing reflects that. But I'd say try before you buy. I still went for an MX Master 2S because they were on sale for 59€. The MX Vertical would have been 100€, and the Lift was 80€. I want to try a vertical mouse, but I didn't want to pay almost double for the MXV in case I didn't like it after all. BTW, I thought the build quality, at least in the materials, was much better on the MXV (and the MX Master series also), than on the Lift. The body plastics and the wheel on the MX series are very nice, where the Lift was certainly cheaper feeling in both areas. I felt like the Lift was a cheaper mouse made more expensive because of the vertical design. Not bad, but definately not 80€ good. I think I'll wait and see if I can find the Lift on sale sometime, or find another, more affordable vertical mouse to try on. Though, the MX Master 2S I bought for my 59€ seems like it's so good and so well built, I wonder if I would ever actually use the cheap mouse even if it was vertical. Maybe best to use the MXM until it's time for a change again.
Yeah, the way you grip it's also very important. A claw grip makes big mice even bigger, so a big hand with claw grip might be better with the Lift than the Mx vertical.
One thing I've always wanted is to have some buttons on the right side of the mouse which are never used. I thought that when using the xbox, on an xbox the thumbs are overused, but on a mouse, the middle, ring and pinkie fingers are underused. I could see 3 normal buttons for the pointer to ringer finger would be great will the scroll mouse somewhere in the middle. But I think for the sake of the scroll mouse, it gets in the way to be used as a third middle button. But going crazy, I don't see why you couldn't have 4 buttons for all the fingers except the thumb. And then having multiple buttons on the thumb like the razer. Another idea that you could implement is that it's super important try try all of this out, so maybe you can send people, or for like 15$ people cab purchase 5 different shells to see what each size mouse feels like to your hand. I would pay for that to feel the size and the clicks of the mouse and when I'm ready then I know exactly what size mice you offer to buy. I really wish there were more buttons in better places like I mentioned and that the mice were customized better with my hand. I got the large Anker mouse, and I didn't realize it but it is far too large for my hand and although I thought the slant would help, the largeness requires more pressure to push and negates that advantage. So yea, i would invest in an awesome mouse. I really like the exchangeable buttons layout here on the razer, however, it doesn't implement the buttons idea on the top or right like I mentioned: www.amazon.com/Razer-Naga-Wireless-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B08D27XXRY/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2F92N7JZ6FB4R&keywords=wireless+mouse+multiple+side+buttons&qid=1703832203&s=electronics&sprefix=wireless+mouse+multiple+side+button%2Celectronics%2C130&sr=1-3
The amount of buttons to place on a mouse is a bit delicate. On one hand, more buttons = more possibilities and functions. However, they are also more confusing for the user. The exact amount depens more on the design of the mouse, and where is comfortable to place how many buttons. It's better to have 4 comfortable buttons than 6 uncomfortable ones, because in the end, 2 end up unused. Developing fewer buttons but a better software is probably the best way to go. We completely agree that the mouse should have better sizing, and even modularity to adapt to the size of the hand, that should be a must at this point. Hopefully we can do something in the future to fix it 😊
@DygmaLab Yeah it was amazing! I got it last June. It was my first venture into the vertical mouse world. I was expecting to need a few weeks to get used to it and wasn't expecting to use it for gaming at all, but about an hour in and I absolutely loved it, and a few days later I was using it for everything, including gaming! Now normal mice feel weird and awkward to use. lol It's so comfortable and natural to use! My only complaint is that it doesn't have any RGB, but that's a very minor gripe. 🙂 I've had multiple people try it for a few minutes because they had never seen anything like it before, and they all agree how comfortable it is. The left mouse button started dying about a week ago, which makes it really hard to do things sometimes, but I think that's because when I was playing games I may have pressed way too hard a few times😅.
That's awesome! What is the size of your hand from the bottom of your palm up until the highest finger? Maybe you could also chec with Logi if they have warranty to revive that Lift. I've heard they have pretty good warranty standards 😊
@@DygmaLab My hand is about 6in, or 152mm from the bottom of my palm to the tip of my middle finder. I'd say I have a small/medium hand. contacting Logi actually a good idea. It can't hurt, and worst case scenario, I'll just buy another one since it seems I stumbled upon the best one (for now) on my first try. Hopefully another Lyft can last me until a better vertical mouse comes around😉
Yeah they're really nice! Those are 3D panels from Amazon www.amazon.es/Paneles-paneles-unidades-aspecto-diamante/dp/B0C2TYYGLZ/ref=s[…]es+3d,aps,96&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1
Would definitely be interested to see a wireless mouse as vertical as the evoluent but with the quality and feel of the logitech! (Probably a rubber material and light, silent clicks like the logitech lift to reduce finger effort) Maybe even a mouse where the front curves around more too (Which could help to reduce the size of the mouse and not be as bulky as the evoluent) so that your fingers don't have to be held straight, but instead can curl like they do naturally if you rest your hands on a table (I suppose though that this would increase the need for a few differently sized models to account for varying hand sizes). I also like that the evoluent having a higher place for your thumb to sit helps your hand to sit a lot straighter upwards too (The logitech makes your hand angle over because of how low the thumb rest is)
Those are very detailed instructions, and the idea is very entincing, great thinking 👌 Personally, I'm not very fond of the rubber. Thoug it provides ip, it also degrades faster than other materials, and not only from the hands, also oxidizes faster than plastics. But other than that, all your ideas are spot on, especially the grip, thumb position and size notes; that gives you away as someone who has tested a lot of models😉 Thanks a lot for the input, that's a mouse that would grant you a happy Luis' face, for sure!
@@DygmaLabThanks! Interesting I didn’t know that about rubber! If I had to come up with a new mouse design, I have to imagine that the best way to start would be to get someone to sit down and rest their arms on a table/desk with their hands vertical and fingers in a relaxed, curled position (as would be the natural resting position). And then from there, mould a shape to fit in the space between their palm, fingers and thumb. This would probably end up looking similar to a joystick or trigger. I think the Posturite penguin was a step in this direction. But it could do with being thinner like the ‘RAGNOK Cyberpunk Shooting Gaming Mouse’, with better build quality and looking less like a gimmick. I appreciate that ideally when designing a product, you want a one size fits all. But I think for a device like a mouse to be truly ergonomic, it would probably be best to have a few different size models, like the evolvent or even a Herman Miller Aeron office chair. This would allow a mouse to be as ergonomic as possible while also properly fitting the wide range of hand sizes out there. And finally once again, light buttons for super easy clicks would be amazing!
@@DygmaLab Something like the Trigger Mouse from Hansen Liang would be incredible! Perhaps without the D-Pad, and the scrollwheel either where the D-Pad was but horizontal (so left and right with your thumb to go up and down) or with it just in the standard position between the two left/right click trigger buttons.
Man, Evoluent move have so much potential to be the pinnacle of what a vertical mouse should be, but the quality of them for the price they’re sold at makes me second guess whether or not i would recommend them 😞
The winner would probably be the Contour Design Unimouse, with an adjustable angle from 35°-70°, 3 buttons+wheel, comes in right and left-handed, etc... if it's on the list.
@@DygmaLab Yep, that sounds good, with your presentation style and expertise many will benefit of it I think. It is probably in pair with your tilting keyboard design. I did not buy yet, I found it when I was looking for a 3-button mouse alternative to the "3D Connextion Cadmouse Pro", which I sent back a day after purchase because of the loose button caps (when I shook a little bit. Pro!!!).
I got it and it’s indeed a great mouse. Great variety for dpi control, you can perfectly adjust the angle and it also helps a lot that you can adjust the thing where you lay your thumb. It’s probably a little better for a palm grip than claw grip, but may work for both. Definitely can recommend it.
@@DygmaLab Works very well for me with 3-4 high resolution displays. Nothing strange so far. It's a little bit on the "bulkier" side due to the "platform" and stepless tilting mechanism, but totally fine for me. I've got relatively small hands and it works well for me. It's probably better suited for work than for gaming, though. (not a gamer, so have no experience with that).
20:25 I use this one since well over a year now and I don't see any downside when it comes to gaming. I like that you grip it more like a joystick, compared to all the flatter ones. The only big issue I have is that the rubber thingies on the bottom started to peel off and there seems to be no perfect replacement rubber online
Could you please add a section to your video where you click on the mouse with the voice meter? It is crucial to me to know how those mouses sounds (I am looking for a silent click).
If you use the Evoluent for gaming, get the wired usb model, not wireless. Wired is much faster and more accurate. But this is true with any wireless mouse.
I love the idea of this comparison/review but it's incomplete without evaluating the thumb buttons and tracking! It's not a glove, it's a computer accessory so please tell us how well it *actually performs* in regular use. Next time 🙂
O.O is Dygma labs considering making a vertical mouse? I haven't converted to vertical mice because I use the horizontal scroll wheel on my MX Master 3 too often, but it would be very interesting to watch how you might design one... But first I need to buy a Defy!
I like the content of the video but my verdict is, it depends on the user. Although it gives ideas to people if they are not familiar with vertical mice or haven't tried one yet or planning to buy one. I bought a lot of OEM vertical mice though ZELOTES is the best one for me. The only thing stupid buying it online (Philippines) all of the mice that I bought - the LED's are not working (the red LED at the bottom with the sensor). Funny thing is the mice is still working perfectly hahaha.
We agree on that, in the end, it all comes down to factors like: the habits of the user, the shape and size of the hand, the grip, the space to move the mouse, the budget, the type of activity... that's why we encourage people to test and see which is best for them, like you're doing by testing those Zelotes 😉 Hope you find the perfect fit in no time, and the LEDs work as intended 💪
I'm a gamer, and I always thought Vertical mouse were a joke, but... after the pain in my hands, I'm really looking forward to try these :) I wanted the regnrok trigger, but... it's out of stock
I have the Logitech MX and really like it, but not ideal. I would have given the Lift a shot, but since there is no optional wire to plug in directly to the computer, that means having to buy batteries.
Also, you totally missed the posturite Penguin ambidextrous mouse, which has been working for me for many many years now. They have different sizes and it’s got to be the most vertical mouse of them all.
oh my god... in my country and in Russia (as i have noticed in a lot of videos about computer mice) , people call the price only over 100$ as an expansive one 🤕that is why it sounds so strange from those people, especially because an average salary is nearly 200-300 $ there 🙁 And here, you guys are so realistic, i totally love it 🥰 You don't have those fake masks telling "eww, you cant buy a mouse for 150 $ almost as soon as you walked in the store? its not a mouse being expensive, its just you being poor, haha! " and so on.. Also thank you so much for a great detailed analysis from a lot of perspectives ☺ Oh, by the way, Evoluent-Mouse costs 200$ in my country
Great video, thanks! In the Anker section of the video you talk about pain at the pisiform (part of the hand that touches the desk), and I have the exact same problem with it. You say that you eliminated the problem by going back to a non-vertical mouse, but have you used vertical mice since? I am wondering which vertical mouse I should choose that wouldn't have this problem that I have with Anker. Should I choose a bigger mouse like MX Vertical so my hand doesn't slide on the desk as much, or would literally any mouse eliminate this issue as long as it's not Anker? Thanks!
Some vertical mice have a place to rest your hand and slide it with the mouse without sliding it along the table. You can also try a bigger mouse to avoid resting your wrist on the table at all.
The problem I see with the lift is that it doesn't have a USB C connector. I like using my mouse wired. I have a MX Vertical, and I was so confortable with it, that I bought a second one so that I can have one for work and other for home. The problem is that they both started having problems with the main keys at the same time 2 years efter the purchase (coinciding with the end of the warranty), so I'm not sure if I want to risk to buy another one, but there doesn't seem to be a better alternative.
theres just alot of negative comments regarding logitech mouse especially the left click starts double clicking after about 6 months of use. Do you face the same issue to date?
I use a dark oak desk. The best I have used and am still looking for something better is the Zelotes C-18. The Anker was very disappointing. I returned it. They make good chargers but their vertical mouse is embarrassing. I use my C-18 for intensive long-hour gaming sessions, including FPS titles and PvP. It can basically track on anything. The Anker is barely functional. It almost cannot track at all. I would highly recommend anyone stuck between Anker or Zelotes always buy Zelotes and only get Anker chargers/cables. Anker has no idea what it's doing with mouse design and I am almost completely sure their mouse is just a generic unit with the Anker brand slapped on it. Zelotes does that too, but their mice actually work. The Anker has sharp edges, slippery plastic, and a terrible sensor. Avoid it. Spend the extra $10 for something that works. I have a Zelotes C-18 and an F-17. The F-17 is similar in design to the T-30. Because of gravity your hand slips off it, it's not very ergonomic and the censor is just alright. The C-18 is so much better. Personally I'm moving towards using trackballs. I've got a Trackman Marble and I've got my eye on the Nulea M505, it's a new company but looks pretty interesting. I'll be picking one up next month probably. C-18 Pros: -Best sensor I know of in an affordable vertical mouse -Can handle hardcore gaming -Relatively comfortable -LMB and RMB are easy to actuate -software is versatile Cons: -joystick d-pad thing is iffy, cool gimmick but hard to use well -back and forward buttons are way too far away, no one would ever comfortably be able to use them -scroll wheel can get sticky/hard to push over time -LED to display DPI setting at the top cannot be turned off -software is buggy with saving multiple profiles -DPI switch is not easily reachable during normal use -there is a useless weight block that only can be removed if you open the case/mod it -because of the weight block you end up straining your hand to move the mouse around and sort of move it diagonally rather than perfectly horizontally (not an issue functionally once you adjust, but it's worth mentioning) C-18 is good simply because most companies seem to put terrible sensors in their vertical mice the sensor isn't top of the line, but it actually works, almost no jitter at all, no skipping, doesn't spin out
Thank you for your review Zozihn, it gives a lot more context to what we showed in the video. We also like trackballs a lot... maybe in the future we can make one ourselves, that would be super fun 🤔
I have the one you guys said it makes no logic. For me it's superconfortable, I palm it and my hand fits very well the shape makes total sense and my hand doesn't slip. but good to hear other opinions and options. :D
Guys, what an entertaining video. I did literally the same review for myself and spent hours. You forgot to review the penguin mouse and the R-Go HE Mouse. The R-Go is similar to the Evoluent but in my opinion the better option and it comes in 3 different sizes as well. I have very large hands with claw grip, I think the R-Go fits better for the palm grip. Still I always go back to the Logitech MX Master just because of the scroll wheel! Unfortunately I have not yet found the perfect mouse.
Nice review, but a word of critique. When comparing several mice simultaneously, please use less pronouns like 'it', 'this one', 'that one' and just use names, don't be afraid of tautology. There were occasions where I couldn't see the gesture, that pointed to the mouse in topic or just didn't understand out of context.
You're totally right. Note taken for future videos 😊
Ha, tautology. That's not the right word, I guess Anaphora-based redundancy would probably be the right one, but yea this is a very good tip. Anaphora is only good in circumstances where you deal with "it's obvious which thing I'm talking about", ie when you're only handling one thing. In a 38 minute comparison video... referential clarity is certainly NOT a given.
@@MrRedstonefreedom Yeah, I thought there should be a more accurate word, but didn't know about it. Guessed tautology would be close enough to understand the point.
np homie@@Udrys999
#threeblindmice
One thing I really like about this video is it continues to demonstrate how ergonomics are such a personal thing. I have the Delux RGB vertical mouse they showed but didn't really like. I absolutely love it and I use it without the palm rest. I have one of those super huge gaming mouse pads. I tend to do a combination of claw grip and arm move with that mouse and it works great set at 1200dpi. I also agree with the comment about the need to look out for the issue of a vertical mouse putting too much pressure on the corner wrist bone. While I love the vertical mouse, it did take some getting used to and teaching myself to rest most of the length of the side of my hand on the mouse pad next to the vertical mouse to avoid the corner wrist bone issue.
Nice to hear it worked for you!
Thank you for sharing your experience. Once we release ours, we want to replace that one you currently have 😏
I love mine too. So much more comfortable than a standard gaming mouse, and great price, too. I use the palm rest but still competitive at FPS. It just takes practice. Wish there were more vertical gaming mice available.
Yes it's the best
I have the logitech lift and love it. Nice that they've also produced a left-handed version too.
Yeah, they feel great. Just have to make sure your hand is not too big for it, though 🤔
The video even shows a picture of the lefty Lift @ 252s :)
(I am one of the rare folks who uses a mouse left handed, and am a fan of the Lift)
@@DygmaLab What would you consider to be "too big", though?
I have it for both left and right hands. A dual yielded here. :)
@@CosmeBenito The Mouse is designed for people with hands < 19cm or 7.5 inches
I have been using vertical mice for about 3 years now and while the Logitech Vertical made the pain in my arms a lot worse, I have found relief in the Evoluent D/4. It is true that the Evoluent are a bit flimsy and the design very retro they are extremely comfortable to use!
Dygma Raise + Evoluent D/4 + Ergotherapy = Being able to work/game again without pain ❤
Cool! Glad to hear you found your comfortable mix 🥰
Once we release our mouse, the idea is to replace that Evoluent of yours 😏
@@DygmaLab can't wait!!
@@DygmaLab same setup... also can't wait 🙂
Whats the difference between the Evoluent D and Evoluent 4? even the C. They dont talk about them
Y'all were acting pretty goofy at first, but y'all came together and did the absolute best product breakdown review for anything I have ever watched. Bravo!
Thanks! A little bit of goofiness is never bad 😜
I have small hands and I have the MX vertical from Logitech. I've been using that mouse for the last three years and it's pretty comfortable, you don't have to have large hands to be able to use it. The vertical mouse and split keyboard is what stopped my arm and hand from hurting.
Good to know, thank you for sharing this! ❤️
same here@@DygmaLab
I've been using the big wired DELUX for a couple years and I love it. It's super comfortable even in my medium size hands, I am just as competitive at FPS, and it works fine at low sensitivities too. It's not as silly as they make it look in this video. Best of all, no wrist pain.
We're happy that you like it. Luis is a bit over the top sometimes. He does the same with our own products, the smallest of things can be a dealbreaker for him 😅
@@DygmaLab Thanks for the review though. Vertical mice are often overlooked but for any gamer with carpal tunnel they're a lifesaver.
Same here. I have the J-TECH version with slightly different buttons. It's by far the most comfortable vertical I've tried but it is cheap. I really wish someone would make a higher quality one in the same style so I don't have to buy a new one every year.
I have been using Evoluent mouses for 10+ years. Love them. I have tried many over the years and it's the only thus far that prevent pain in my wrist.
Nice! Thank you for sharing this information! 🙇
I did that with the Contour Mouse many years ago (seriously like 2007). Medium seemed too small; traded it for Large, which was too big (and too big was worse).
me too!
Now that mouse components have been miniaturized, I think there might be a better solution than a vertical mouse: A pen-mouse which remains standing in place when you release it. I hacked together a prototype last week, and so far it's the most natural and ergonomic input device I've ever used.
Sounds promising! Something like a Wacom drawing pen or something like that? 🤔
Show us !
You need to share that with us! :D
Bro share it
bro didn't share it 😔
I am a user of Evoluent. Besides the shape, I find having 3 fully customable finger buttons to be a deal breaker. It makes so much more sense to have a dedicated button for double clicking - otherwise the index finger is disproportionately overloaded, doing all the clicks and double clicks
That's a nice point, thank you for sharing it with us. What about the quality of the materials, do you agree that they are not super good ones? 🤔
@@DygmaLab I would not complain about the materials. The mouse has worked for 3 years / 60 hours per week in office applications and still looks like new. Nothing is wobbly or producing extra noise when squeezing either.
Design-wise, I would appreciate softer switches, but that is a personal preference I believe.
What I do not like is that I cannot use the mouse properly, when the hand is relaxed - the pinky keeps rubbing against the table. To prevent that I would prefer a much larger wing. I had to craft my own attachment out of cardboard to compensate for a small wing
Which one???
A 'deal breaker' means you don't like it 🤨
This is a good watch! Though I feel like the moral of the story here is that there isn't really any "outstanding" ergonomic mice on the market. Each and every one of these have a compromise somewhere along the way, whether it be in the features, form, or quality. Then on top of that, the quality-to-cost ratio is generally just not very good, where it feels like you're paying a premium just for the shape while the rest of the mouse features are second-rate.
There is one mouse in particular I've had a keen interest in called the "Penguin Mouse" that I had the opportunity to test some time back. It takes a pretty unique take on the ergonomic mouse by changing the grip to what is essentially a gun grip! The primary mouse buttons are situated like gun triggers with the middle scroll wheel nested between them and there's a wide palm rest for the hand to rest on. It basically takes the more "joystick" like mouse design from the few you've tested in this video, but takes the concept a full step further.
Conceptually it's a super interesting mouse and I found it exceptionally comfortable to hold and use but like many options on this list, you pay a premium for the shape alone while everything else like the sensor, mouse buttons, and scroll wheel are just really subpar. But the _concept_ of the mouse I personally feel is very much worth exploring for the potential!
If you're interested in looking at it yourself, here's a video about it! If you end up trying it out, I'd be curious what your thoughts are on it. th-cam.com/video/_UXVb25JY8E/w-d-xo.html
Thanks again for this video! Just like this channel in general, this is incredibly helpful in filling in an otherwise pretty empty knowledge base.
I’ve been using a Penguin mouse lately, and yeah, the build quality and features aren’t great
But the form is interesting. For a while I was holding it almost like a gear shift.
It’s stable enough to use that way with your hand on top of the “joystick”. Not how it’s intended, but the buttons stretch reachable so it worked. And that put my hand right at the height to go over to the tented Raise. Keeping my elbow straight.
Interesting possibilities
Thank you for sharing this! It's like you said, the current market doesn't have an obvious model that we would recommend to everyone because it really depends on what you want 😢
Do you want something that looks good? Wireless? Comfortable and silent clicks? None of them has all of this.
The idea is that we can fill that gap with our mystery device, a perfect solution for all those "problems" 😏
I've heard before about the Penguin but haven't tried that. I'll forward to the team to check if we can grab one to check.
Awesome hearing someone who knows what they are talking about. Loved to her the designer / engineer point of view
Thank you! We will have more videos with Luis in the future 🥰
I have the Evoluent, I started with medium and thought it felt a bit too small for my hand. So i swapped for a large... now it's too big! I feel like goldilocks
I'm really excited to figure out why there's so many vertical mice lying around in the Dygma office... :D
They started appearing out of nowhere... 🐭
We actually wanted to make this video for all of you and it is also part of a resear... Oh, I can't say that yet? Sorry... 🤐
Which one?
@@JjHd-hv5de 4
I'd get a Dygma Vertical Ergo in a heartbeat
Thank you! And great background music ☺️
Thank you for commenting! We are glad you liked it ❤️
What bugs me about this kind of mouse is that if you use a high cursor speed, then the tiny movement of the mouse that occurs when you click can sometimes make you miss what you're trying to click on.
Totally makes sense, the switches would have to be fine-tuned to consider that 🤔
Very helpful review, you guys are also funny and it made me happy :D
We are so glad it helped you! Thank you for your words!
Just seeing this now after getting a pale grey Logitech Lift and you guys nailed it on the head. This is the best vertical (or even horizontal mouse) I've had.
Nice! I have a Lift too and even though my hands are "too big" according to the it works just fine.
Super comfortable and definitely one of the best when we consider build quality and materials used 😻
I can tell you never had a good horizontal mouse. Lift build quality and components are average at best.
@@theonlyD What vertical mouse do you use and what’s the reason why you like it? And have you tried multiple vertical mouse’s?
@@ulquiorra7446 I have a Zelotes C-18 and I don't like it and don't use it. Currently I'm using a VXE Dragonfly R1 which is superior in any aspect to any vertical mice in the market. Verical mice are a stupid fad.
I actually love the J-tech pink mouse, honestly imo the glossy is sometimes better if you want more grip with your hand, i used it for few years & still going strong, can't complain
Dominique loves it too 😊
can we get a video on trackballs? I know that they're a niche category of mice - but are definitely an ergonomic option (especially the Logitech MX Ergo Plus)
That would be awesome, I passed the idea to the team already 😊
I've owned the Anker for a while now and for someone who uses palm grip it's amazing!
The thumb ball tucks right into that curve so comfortably.
Thanks for sharing!!
I returned the Logitech MX vertical and kept the Logitech Lift, which I like a lot
Cool! Was the MX vertical too big for your hands? Why did you change for the Lift? 🤔
Thanks for taking the time to make this video. I decided on the J-Tech Digital V638. It arrived today and I instantly adapted to it. No learning curve!!
Thank you for watching and for the positive comment 😊
Great to hear you found one that works for you so soon!
Am I the only one who noticed that he kept cutting Dominique off? I don’t know if it’s because of the editing or what but that was uncomfortable.
Now that you mention it, it's true. I think the editing has quite a lot to do. We had almost two hours of footage and we had to cut it down a lot. But maybe also, as Luis was the "expert" about the matter, he interrupted Dominique a bit too much to make clarifications. Thank you for pointing it out. We'll be more aware next time.
yeah lil mansplainy.. eeh. not my vibe
Yeah, I had the same thought
Deluxe seeker M618XSD is my favorite mouse so far. It has good poling rate up to 1000hz, thumb wheel, li-ion battery, can work by wire, bt and 2.4Ghz, and even backlight. Every button can be remapped, I remapped rhumb wheel to vertical one which is extremely useful)
Before this one I had Trust voxx, it has better ergonomics but solwer sensor and does not have thumb wheel)
The Deluxe seeker M618XSD is a good option! We'll add it to the next video about mouse 🙌
Thank you so much for your comment!
I've been fed up with regular mouse shapes for the past few months now but I just couldn't find anyone mentioning polling rates when talking about vertical mice. As gaming is the mouses main purpose for me, a good sensor is the only criteria it needs to meet. You're comment hopefully just ended my search so thanks again!
@@scruffex3736 Not sure whether vertical mouse is good choice for gaming, at least ones that require fast and accurate movement. They usually heavier and you use other, probably untrained muscles to drag it which makes it feel clumsy. But there is a possibility that it`s just my experience and your will be different)
This is one of the best videos on that topic that I've seen! Very unexpected from a keyboard manufacturer.
Wow, thanks, we are really honored!
We work hard to make an informative, yet fun video to watch ❤️
If you design a better mouse than the lift... I would probably buy it.
Accuracy and stability are key.
Also, if you just prevent putting your wrist flat to the desk somehow, it would be a big deal
... so you don't pinch the vains to the desk.
You might not have to go completely vertical.
... also try out the ms sculpt.
The lift is also no grippy enough... it is sometimes hard to "lift" it (claw grip).
I think somekind of 15-20* angle might be enough.
That's exactly the buttons we want to press 😜
@@DygmaLab I've got to say... actually after a few days of getting used to
... the lift feels prety comfortable
... I've got fairly big medium hands (almost 19cm).
I do notice an increased resitance of sliding because of more friction at the bottom in comparison with the logitech m720.
Also I use a simple mousepad to dampen the pressure of the wristknuckle.
I sometimes switch with a gel-pad
... but havn't decided yet if this is better or not... because of more contact of the wrist sinking into the gel.
Cool, sounds very good! 🥰
So... is this a new channel?? It is the only explanation I can find on why they don't have more subscribers and viewers. That was a really nice video!!
Wow! Thank you 😍🫶
Great review, congrats. I'm from Brazil and I've had a MX vertical for 6 years. I opened it for the first time this week, the left button was working badly. I was surprised by the size of the battery, I expected it to be bigger because it is excellent, the battery lasts around 3 to 4 months in my usage. I work with electrical engineer, with CAD design software, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. The buttons are excellent for adjusting shortcuts, the top one I use as “Enter”, the side ones as “esc” and “delete” for more agility. As said in the video, it fits very well in my hands, which are large, but I also recommend it for those with smaller hands, the other Logitech model has no comparison, the MX vertical has a durable and well-adherent rubber pad, its body is very resistant and it is a battery and not a battery. I watched the video looking for another option but probably when it can't hold up anymore, I'll buy another one.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts about the MX Vertical! 💪
I have been using Delux M618 for more than 6 years. A cable/wired version. I am with my second mouse right now, the wheel on the old one broke a year ago. Six years of heavy use should justify this mouse's durability. The wheel has the ability to sweep left-right, you can click it for a click-drag maneuver. The grip and movement are conveniently acceptable. I only have one problem with it, in my case I cannot customize its auxiliary thumb-side buttons. Delux has many copies, with identical design but different independent brands. Although the different brands share its comfortable grip design but the clicking and cursor movement experience can be under Delux's quality. I use Macbook and I am doing a lot of photo editing. Vertical mouse has been very helpful in reducing my wrist strain. I tried other vertical mice but many of them are either too slim (I need some mass to hold) or not vertical enough, so far Delux M618 design fits my palm better.
Thank you very much for sharing your experience with us 😊
Also, great to hear you found a mouse that adapts to your hand, that's the complicated part. Like you point, and Luis mentions, the most important is being able to test a lot and find one that does not compromise the grip.
Glad to hear you're improving from those wrist pains!
First of, whoever picked the lofi final fantasy mix for the background music needs a raise.
I'm a medium hands claw grip, and I've used the anker and am now with the zelotes c-18, the scroll wheel is starting to go after one year of daily 12 hour use so I'll be getting something new soon. One thing that I want to add is that the "joystick" on top of it is a complete gimmick and is not a joystick at all, its a clickable d-pad at best, it is at an angle and on top of the mouse making so that you are either using that or using the mouse so I would buy the cheaper non "joystick" version.
Regarding the use of buttons, I use them very often for the backwards/fowards commands in the browser, but not a lot in gamming as I used to do with horizontal mice. I think that something I would like to see is a mouse with one button on top and one on the bottom that is intended to be used with the knuckle of the thumb by sliding it on the mouse's surface. There could be space for more buttons on the click side of the mouse especially for use with pinky or ring finger.
On a separate note, some brands (delux does this) are starting to have hadn size and grip reccomendations with their mice.
Great video and I'll be waiting for the Dygma vertical claw and vertical palm mice
🎶 We're glad you liked the music choice. We're always exploring new ideas and innovations. Stay tuned for more exciting developments! 😊👍
I tried to buy an identical version of this joystick mouse with different branding and the scroll wheel arrived broken. If you are (or anyone is) thinking of trying a different brand or wondering if you mashed it in any way. It's not you. The wheel is defective. We need fully redesigned internals built in this form factor.
Man, this was a great review. I appreciate that he judged the cheap mouses for what they are... cheap. They can still be viable if you don't have the budget for a Logitech mouse. I been using the Anker and it's very decent.
Thank you very much!
The budget is always important, no matter the product, and the thing about mice is that the one with the correct shape and size for you can cost 10$; always try and test the items, there are surprises, like your Anker, in any model
You guys are awesome. Just came across your channel and I love your passion :) keep it up and great vid!!
Thank you, we're glad you liked it! ❤️
I also recommend Logitech Lift. The software alone is worthy in my personal opinion.
Right in all counts, Logitech's connectivity is spotless and the software is very intuitive. If within budget, is one of the best options, you have great taste 😊
this man has a reviewing talent , I really loved the way he explains every thing about every model and viewing his opinion in a very objective way ,my admire and respect to this review ,I didn't see any professional review like this for a long time. 👍
Thank you! He is our CEO, Luis Sevilla 😊
The HP 920 Ergonomic Vertical Mouse Wireless looks to have come out after your video. It is really good. The magnetically attaching wrist pad is large, so your hand just rests unless you are actively moving the mouse or clicking. No lifting of the hands at all to use it and no rubbing on the table. It is a louder click that is snappy like any typical non-soft click mouse.
We'll take a look 😊
Lol that ending. Great video like always very informative 😊
Thank you 😁
We always want to make the videos informative but also fun.
Woo! Hopefully that "No Particular Reason" is something I've been asking for since I got my Raise back when it was first announced. I can only imagine how good an ergo mouse from Dygma can be. That said, I bought a cheap Anker awhile ago, it's okay, but ultimately there just wasn't enough useful features like my gaming mouse. So if you are working on a new future product I'd love to have several buttons in the groove that the thumb rests in for macros and other nice features for gaming and work. I know the Raise and Defy have so many wonderful key combos that make life easier, but having some built into the mouse would be incredible as well.
Thanks for reading. Can't wait for the Defy to finally be in my hands. Good luck with everything!
EDIT: Also wanted to add that your attention to detail and analysis of what's wrong with current products is wonderful.
Thank you, Dane!
You know us, we want to make something excellent and that's going to impact the whole market, that's why we're taking extra care to make it right 💪
My idea of an ideal mouse consists several factors, and ergonomics happens to be just one of them. As a gamer, I find additional buttons to be utterly essential. Ideal would have 3-5 buttons accessible instantly by the thumb, 1-2 smaller secondary buttons available to the left click finger, and 1-2 smaller secondary buttons available to the right click finger (which I haven't ever actually seen).
These are also very useful for workflows as well, because during workflows you can map special keys to the mouse, so you can, say, CTRL-drag with just one hand.
The value of the extra buttons on the mouse is so high while gaming that I practically always have to sacrifice good ergonomic design in order to have the value of the extra buttons. This is especially frustrating because there are so many additional ergonomic factors which contribute to ideal ergo function, and the mouse arm definitely starts hurting after a few hours of gaming with the boys.
If Dygma decides to jump into the ergo mouse game, I'd like to BEG you for a gaming mouse with lots of extra buttons.
But I also perfectly understand the challenges of product design. You've got trade-offs when you want to introduce features.
That Gaming mouse with the control stick is an example of a failure to take that into account. it isn't really possible to keep using that joystick while picking up the mouse briefly to move it.
Thank you for your comment Leo. Like all the products in Dygma we want to accomplish something great with the mouse too. We want to have as many features as possible, and we want them all well implemented too ❤️
Don't worry, we will create a great product 💪
Fully agree with all of this, pretty much my exact thoughts 👍
Got an MX vertical for the ergonomics (didn't realise there were so many other options) and while I truly enjoy it, the greatest feature I've found is the software it comes with "logi+ options".
Working on mac and PC at same time for work, using the software, you can hover on the edge of the screen and the mouse will transfer to the other OS computer. (You won't have to click the preset button to switch between PC's anymore, thus saving precious tie if you are wanting to be efficient at work.
Thats not all, this phenomenal software also allows you to copy and paste between OS (before I had to use a local server, or thumb drive to transfer contents).
Phenomenal time saving technology for me, with added bonus of ergonomics
Thanks a lot for the detailed review, and very happy to hear it has been helping you!
I love louis' attention to detail! I want him to do other reviews
Oh yeah, Luis gives that same love to all products Dygma produces so you can always expect good quality and attention to detail ❤️
This is the first video of yours that I have seen, and you won me over from the start with the great fairy background music placed oh so perfectly there.
Glad to see you enjoyed it, hope it helped 😊
Let us know if you have further questions!
This is great, before this video there was no comprehensive review of all vertical mice out there. But after watching this it's clear that what is out there is not sufficient, you guys clearly need to design your own
Thank you, we do plan on designing one in the future 🤐
@@DygmaLab YESSSS
Due to some shoulder issues recently got a trackball mouse. After a short adaptation period I very much enjoy it! My shoulder gets some rest from mousing and as an added bonus the ball acts as a fidget toy during downtime.
So glad to hear!
I don't know where this numbers come from, but I know a lot left handed people and all of them use mouse with left hand. Maybe there are not many options with ergonomic mouses for lefties on the market, so that's why some of them decides to use right hand?
The numbers came from a survey we did when we were creating the Raise. It could be that this is enforced by the market not making good mice for lefties, though 🤔
I have a medium sized hand (based on Logitech sizing guide) and a palm grip. I've been using the Anker vertical mouse for a couple of years now. It's been okay. Battery life is pretty terrible. I have to replace the 2AA batteries every few months. And the scroll wheel is starting to wear out I suppose because it's very glitchy now, especially if you just want "one click" in either direction. It'll scroll down one then scroll back up quite frequently. Precise scrolling just isn't possible. I'm eyeing the Logitech Lift now. I didn't even know it existed until today and the price point of the MX Vertical kept me away from that in the past.
Oh yeah, the Lift is a bit cheaper than the MX Vertical and it should suit your medium hands just fine.
We are also working on a solution ourselves but it's not coming in the near future unfortunately 🤐
FYI their are numerous right handed users that use the mouse in their left hands. Mainly people that work with numbers like accountants. They use the mouse with their left hand and the number pad with their right hand to enter numbers. not sure if your surveys would have picked up people like this
We probably didn't pick many of those. Thank you for letting us know about this too 🙇
Gotta admit, although it is a very long video review it was very entertaining to watch :)
Glad you enjoyed it! We have many more to come! 😊
I have too many keyboards. If you make mice, I’d love to buy one or more. I am right handed but I use mice on my left hand to ease the burden on my right hand.
Cool! Normally vertical mouse are not ambidextrous though.
We're working on a mystery device, but we are not creating a left-hand version. We've explained that it would be harder to produce that as we would have to meet the minimum order quantities and all that 😢
@@DygmaLab Thank you for the response. That is correct I've only tried found one southpaw vertical mouse. I typical use a trackball on my left. I would love to see what the mystery product is! I have enjoyed supported your company and loved my original dygma. Thanks!
Thank you! This was such a well detailed and helpful video.
Glad it was helpful!
1:28 love the portal gun. Ever hear of a vert ergonomic mouse mmorpg mouse (12+ button mouse) ?
We should try that one on the next video 💪
@@DygmaLab I was asking as I haven't seen any. Let me know if you have. ty.
I feel that a vertical mouse is less comfortable to use than a regular one if you pair it with a split keyboard and put the mouse in the middle.
Yeah, we have lots of users that use it this way. Some of them also go with vertical mouse in the middle of the split... 🤔
I guess things work differently for different people and usage.
These videos are great, can't believe I haven't heard about you guys before
Thank you! It's always awesome to have new Dygmates 🙌
Really good and informative video. I think they 2 host conversational style is great; it has a natural and welcoming feel that I prefer over the usual style of one person talking at the camera. Noticing about halfway through that the subtle BGM is a FF7 remix was also a nice touch. Didn't notice the music at first, but then said "Heeeeeey! I know that!" Keep up the good work, first video I've seen from this channel but it's an instant subscribe for me!
Thank you for the comment! From time to time we also pop some Zelda tunes and so on... gotta love the old games soundtracks 😻
LOL, actually, the music grated on my nerves. I do appreciate the in depth comparison, though.
I have been using the Evoluent VerticalMouse 4 for years as a work mouse (I won't game on a vertical mouse). I have just bought the Logitech MX Vertical as I wanted to go wireless. I debated on going with the Lift b/c it's smaller and less expensive, but the dealbreaker was the Lift requires a AAA battery while the Vertical has a rechargeable battery. I'll take the latter any day. If I feel the Vertical is too big for me, then I may return and swap. Having said, that, wince I've been using the Evoluent, which is fairly big, for years. I hopefully won't have an issue.
Hope the Vertical works out for you! 🐭
Excellent review! And of course the Logitech Lift also comes in Pink too ;) (and white..)
True, we forgot to mention that! 😆
I've been using the Zelotes C-18 for about 3 years now. In terms of shape it's pretty comfortable. No problem with the clicks, the DPI is good. I use it for gaming and don't have any problems with the sensor. My main gripe is that I've had 2 of these mice and the scroll wheel has broken on both fairly quickly. It will still scroll sometimes but not at a consistent rate, sometimes scrolling up instead of down. I'm not going to buy another one unless they fix that issue, switching to the Logitech Lift tomorrow.
Thanks for sharing your experience! 😍
I have Delux m618 Plus at office after one week of using I took of the palm rest and it works for me. In my case it's realy good and I'm satisfied.
Sometimes I'm using Delux m618xsd also without palm rest and it's even little bit more comfortable.
Grease: well, everyone always has some grease on their hands. On glossy surfaces you at least see that and can easily clean it. Have you ever tried cleaning a matt mouse after you used it for a (longer) while? You will not see any dirt, but it is really grimey and also hard to clean. So from a cleanliness perspective, use a mouse with glossy surface!
Numb pinky: Well, from what you described, that would mean that you or maybe anyone cannot use any vertical mouse in a claw grip in general.
Lifting the mouse: Especially with a claw grip, you usually lift the mouse, and this is hardly possible with any vertical mouse (without pressing the buttons).
Clicking: Clicking a vertical mouse means you have to make a counter pressure with your thumb and puts more strain on your lower arm and that can be a problem for some people, so vertical mouse are not more ergonomic for everyone in any case and thus they are not per se better, even though they are always presented in that way, that this hand position would be "normal" for everyone... it is not. So maybe better remove the adjective "ergonomic" from vertical mice, since a vertical mouse is not necessarily ergonomic for you.
Thank you for your feedback. As you point out, every decision you make has some pros and cons, and what's best for most people can be detrimental for you. Vertical mice are usually more ergonomic than normal ones, although there are some specific scenarios when they are not...
@@DygmaLab But that is why I think phrases like „usually more ergonomic“ are counterproductive, since what is ergonomic and what is helpful is depending on the person and their practice with the mouse. Alternatives to the standard mice, which are by far more various than only vertical mice, only then are „more ergonomic“, if you have problems with what you are using.
I am pretty sure most people who use ergonomic mice have their hands far more often on their standard „not ergonomic“ keyboard without any issues. Though one can argue that in many or most cases the standard keyboard is more detrimental to your joint than the mouse.
Great video. I have to mention... that is not what OEM means, it kind of means the opposite of what you're describing. It's an abbreviation for Original Equipment Manufacturer. The best example I can think of is if you have an iPhone and are using the cable that shipped with the phone, that's the OEM cable. If you bought a cable from a random company on Amazon (whose name is probably a series of meaningless letters) it's a non-OEM cable.
I currently have the shiny Evoluent mouse because I have massive hands and was looking for a comparison of their 3 models to see if I wanted to change for another model. You're right, the finish is pretty crappy, and after a while the chrome gets rubbed off and looks even worse. For me, the 3rd button is essential because I do 3D modeling and it's nice to have to navigate in 3D space, pressing in a scroll wheel for a middle mouse button pretty much sucks.
The point we're trying to make here is that there are OEM mice, where the model is identical and comes from the same factory, but different brands purchase it and modify certain details or elements in the firmware to personalize it. However, the underlying model remains the same 😊
Yeah that comes across, but OEM isn't what they would be called. I'd think something like "generic" would be a better word to use. @@DygmaLab
Yep, they should've called it white-label.
this is the most unbiased review I've ever seen
We try! We just want everyone to have options and know what those options are 😊
Concerning gip styles, there is not only the distinction of claw grip and palm grip. Nearly more important is the difference between middle finger on rmb (index does lmb and mouse wheel) or ring finger on rmb (index does lmb, middle finger does mouse wheel).
Most mice you can use with claw grip as well as with palm grip.
However, there are only a very few mice that can be used with middle finger on rmb and claw grip, since this requires gripping the mouse between pinkie and thumb. However, most mice are designed to be hold with the ringfinger and thumb; they have a correspondingly suitable gripping shape for the ringfinger. This, however, usually lacks for the pinkie.
Most vertical mice are also intended for middle finger on rmb use. With ringfinger on rmb, they require unnaturally lifting the hand and bending it upwards.
Oh yeah, there is also differences on finger placement in the mouse that we didn't mention, some people have been trying middle finger on the scroll and ring finger on RMB.
Normally, people use the buttons the same way, index in the LMB and responsible for scrolling too, middle finger on the RMB. Of course this can change when moving to a vertical mouse 🤔
@@DygmaLab I agree, most people seem to use middle finger on rmb (index does scrolling), but I do not quite get why. Three buttons, three fingers to use them. I always wonder how middle finger on rmb users mark text while scrolling (i.e. when the text to mark extends the visiblearea). Yes, I know, shift key exists, but really?
This was such a nice concise review, but the audio was hard to hear for me, not sure if anyone else encountered that. At times the movement of the mouse was louder than his voice.
You're right. We didn't use a desk mat and the mice were loud when hitting the table. We've bought a big mat for future videos 😊
very cute ending. thanks for the review
🤭😅 thanks for watching till the end
put volume on the thumb buttons, or forward back, it's SO much better than not using it
The thing is that reaching for those buttons sometimes makes your mouse move or force you to change your grip, which is not ideal...
Wow CEO bro really came to life later about 10 mins into the video. Really knowledgeable, thanks for sharing!
Glad it was helpful! 🤩
No joke about the Logitech hand sizing. I have a 19cm hand from first wrist wrist crease to top of middle finger, and I wear XL sized gloves. I tried the MX Vertical and the Lift at a store, and the MX was quite large even for me. I could use it in a palm grip, but even I had to reach a bit for the thumb buttons. The Lift was fine for me, even though they say it's meant for "small and medium" hands. Maybe the design idea is that the mouse should be completely palmed, and the sizing reflects that. But I'd say try before you buy.
I still went for an MX Master 2S because they were on sale for 59€. The MX Vertical would have been 100€, and the Lift was 80€. I want to try a vertical mouse, but I didn't want to pay almost double for the MXV in case I didn't like it after all.
BTW, I thought the build quality, at least in the materials, was much better on the MXV (and the MX Master series also), than on the Lift. The body plastics and the wheel on the MX series are very nice, where the Lift was certainly cheaper feeling in both areas. I felt like the Lift was a cheaper mouse made more expensive because of the vertical design. Not bad, but definately not 80€ good.
I think I'll wait and see if I can find the Lift on sale sometime, or find another, more affordable vertical mouse to try on. Though, the MX Master 2S I bought for my 59€ seems like it's so good and so well built, I wonder if I would ever actually use the cheap mouse even if it was vertical. Maybe best to use the MXM until it's time for a change again.
Yeah, the way you grip it's also very important. A claw grip makes big mice even bigger, so a big hand with claw grip might be better with the Lift than the Mx vertical.
One thing I've always wanted is to have some buttons on the right side of the mouse which are never used. I thought that when using the xbox, on an xbox the thumbs are overused, but on a mouse, the middle, ring and pinkie fingers are underused. I could see 3 normal buttons for the pointer to ringer finger would be great will the scroll mouse somewhere in the middle. But I think for the sake of the scroll mouse, it gets in the way to be used as a third middle button. But going crazy, I don't see why you couldn't have 4 buttons for all the fingers except the thumb. And then having multiple buttons on the thumb like the razer. Another idea that you could implement is that it's super important try try all of this out, so maybe you can send people, or for like 15$ people cab purchase 5 different shells to see what each size mouse feels like to your hand. I would pay for that to feel the size and the clicks of the mouse and when I'm ready then I know exactly what size mice you offer to buy. I really wish there were more buttons in better places like I mentioned and that the mice were customized better with my hand. I got the large Anker mouse, and I didn't realize it but it is far too large for my hand and although I thought the slant would help, the largeness requires more pressure to push and negates that advantage. So yea, i would invest in an awesome mouse. I really like the exchangeable buttons layout here on the razer, however, it doesn't implement the buttons idea on the top or right like I mentioned: www.amazon.com/Razer-Naga-Wireless-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B08D27XXRY/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2F92N7JZ6FB4R&keywords=wireless+mouse+multiple+side+buttons&qid=1703832203&s=electronics&sprefix=wireless+mouse+multiple+side+button%2Celectronics%2C130&sr=1-3
The amount of buttons to place on a mouse is a bit delicate. On one hand, more buttons = more possibilities and functions. However, they are also more confusing for the user.
The exact amount depens more on the design of the mouse, and where is comfortable to place how many buttons. It's better to have 4 comfortable buttons than 6 uncomfortable ones, because in the end, 2 end up unused. Developing fewer buttons but a better software is probably the best way to go.
We completely agree that the mouse should have better sizing, and even modularity to adapt to the size of the hand, that should be a must at this point. Hopefully we can do something in the future to fix it 😊
That would be great! @@DygmaLab
Great review, i laughed and got the informations i was looking for. Thanks !
Glad it was helpful and entertaining 🥰
I tried a few vertical mice and currently I'm using a MX Vertical and MX Ergo from time to time.
Nice! Do you find it difficult to switch from trackball to mouse? 🤔
@@DygmaLab For me, it only takes a minute or so to mentally switch and to not trying to move the whole trackball.
Thanks for this video! Kinda leaning on getting a vertical mouse for work.
Nice, which one are you considering getting? 🤔
This is perfect timing! my Logitech Lyft just started dying, so I am looking for a replacement. Time to see if there is anything better!
Nice! Did you like the Lyft, by the way? 🤔
@DygmaLab Yeah it was amazing! I got it last June. It was my first venture into the vertical mouse world.
I was expecting to need a few weeks to get used to it and wasn't expecting to use it for gaming at all, but about an hour in and I absolutely loved it, and a few days later I was using it for everything, including gaming!
Now normal mice feel weird and awkward to use. lol
It's so comfortable and natural to use! My only complaint is that it doesn't have any RGB, but that's a very minor gripe. 🙂
I've had multiple people try it for a few minutes because they had never seen anything like it before, and they all agree how comfortable it is.
The left mouse button started dying about a week ago, which makes it really hard to do things sometimes, but I think that's because when I was playing games I may have pressed way too hard a few times😅.
That's awesome! What is the size of your hand from the bottom of your palm up until the highest finger? Maybe you could also chec with Logi if they have warranty to revive that Lift. I've heard they have pretty good warranty standards 😊
@@DygmaLab My hand is about 6in, or 152mm from the bottom of my palm to the tip of my middle finder. I'd say I have a small/medium hand. contacting Logi actually a good idea. It can't hurt, and worst case scenario, I'll just buy another one since it seems I stumbled upon the best one (for now) on my first try.
Hopefully another Lyft can last me until a better vertical mouse comes around😉
Amazing review, very well explained ! Thanks !
Thanks! Glad it was helpful!
very precisely details to describe how you grip and move the mouse instead of how does the mouse design.
It is real ergonomic, action with human!
Thank you, we're glad this was helpful! 🥰
Love the Zelda Remix background music =)
Great review btw!
One day we'll get that Linkle game, one day...
That would be awesome, Linkle is great! 🥰
That's our nice touch, glad you liked you 😊
Great video, thank you! I had the Anker it was too big for me, and the scroller is awful. Going to try the lift after this video!
Oh yeah, it should be much better in build quality and size 🤔
Thank you very much for your presentation, it helped a lot and my new mouse solved my shoulder pain completly.
Thank to you for your words!
Really glad to hear you've improved, now keep up the halthy habits and don't let the pain come back! 💪
Love the studio background :) Can I ask where you bought that/product info? Would love that for our office...
Yeah they're really nice! Those are 3D panels from Amazon www.amazon.es/Paneles-paneles-unidades-aspecto-diamante/dp/B0C2TYYGLZ/ref=s[…]es+3d,aps,96&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1
Would definitely be interested to see a wireless mouse as vertical as the evoluent but with the quality and feel of the logitech! (Probably a rubber material and light, silent clicks like the logitech lift to reduce finger effort) Maybe even a mouse where the front curves around more too (Which could help to reduce the size of the mouse and not be as bulky as the evoluent) so that your fingers don't have to be held straight, but instead can curl like they do naturally if you rest your hands on a table (I suppose though that this would increase the need for a few differently sized models to account for varying hand sizes). I also like that the evoluent having a higher place for your thumb to sit helps your hand to sit a lot straighter upwards too (The logitech makes your hand angle over because of how low the thumb rest is)
Those are very detailed instructions, and the idea is very entincing, great thinking 👌
Personally, I'm not very fond of the rubber. Thoug it provides ip, it also degrades faster than other materials, and not only from the hands, also oxidizes faster than plastics. But other than that, all your ideas are spot on, especially the grip, thumb position and size notes; that gives you away as someone who has tested a lot of models😉
Thanks a lot for the input, that's a mouse that would grant you a happy Luis' face, for sure!
@@DygmaLabThanks! Interesting I didn’t know that about rubber! If I had to come up with a new mouse design, I have to imagine that the best way to start would be to get someone to sit down and rest their arms on a table/desk with their hands vertical and fingers in a relaxed, curled position (as would be the natural resting position). And then from there, mould a shape to fit in the space between their palm, fingers and thumb. This would probably end up looking similar to a joystick or trigger. I think the Posturite penguin was a step in this direction. But it could do with being thinner like the ‘RAGNOK Cyberpunk Shooting Gaming Mouse’, with better build quality and looking less like a gimmick. I appreciate that ideally when designing a product, you want a one size fits all. But I think for a device like a mouse to be truly ergonomic, it would probably be best to have a few different size models, like the evolvent or even a Herman Miller Aeron office chair. This would allow a mouse to be as ergonomic as possible while also properly fitting the wide range of hand sizes out there. And finally once again, light buttons for super easy clicks would be amazing!
@@DygmaLab Something like the Trigger Mouse from Hansen Liang would be incredible! Perhaps without the D-Pad, and the scrollwheel either where the D-Pad was but horizontal (so left and right with your thumb to go up and down) or with it just in the standard position between the two left/right click trigger buttons.
Man, Evoluent move have so much potential to be the pinnacle of what a vertical mouse should be, but the quality of them for the price they’re sold at makes me second guess whether or not i would recommend them 😞
Guys, thanks a lot for you opinions! And also I'm really enjoy your show ;)
Thank you for watching the whole thing, this was a long one 😅
Hope it helps, and if you have any topic to suggest, don't be shy!
The winner would probably be the Contour Design Unimouse, with an adjustable angle from 35°-70°, 3 buttons+wheel, comes in right and left-handed, etc... if it's on the list.
That sounds fantastic. We haven't tested that one yet, but we definitely should 😲
@@DygmaLab Yep, that sounds good, with your presentation style and expertise many will benefit of it I think. It is probably in pair with your tilting keyboard design.
I did not buy yet, I found it when I was looking for a 3-button mouse alternative to the "3D Connextion Cadmouse Pro", which I sent back a day after purchase because of the loose button caps (when I shook a little bit. Pro!!!).
I got it and it’s indeed a great mouse. Great variety for dpi control, you can perfectly adjust the angle and it also helps a lot that you can adjust the thing where you lay your thumb. It’s probably a little better for a palm grip than claw grip, but may work for both. Definitely can recommend it.
Nice! What about sensor quality, did you notice anything strange? 🤔
@@DygmaLab Works very well for me with 3-4 high resolution displays. Nothing strange so far. It's a little bit on the "bulkier" side due to the "platform" and stepless tilting mechanism, but totally fine for me. I've got relatively small hands and it works well for me. It's probably better suited for work than for gaming, though. (not a gamer, so have no experience with that).
20:25 I use this one since well over a year now and I don't see any downside when it comes to gaming. I like that you grip it more like a joystick, compared to all the flatter ones. The only big issue I have is that the rubber thingies on the bottom started to peel off and there seems to be no perfect replacement rubber online
Have you tried contacting the manufacturer? They could supply with that spare part.
Could you please add a section to your video where you click on the mouse with the voice meter? It is crucial to me to know how those mouses sounds (I am looking for a silent click).
We'll take that into consideration for the next video; we can't add stuff to already published videos 😅
your english is perfect, very nice to understand
Thanks! 😊
If you use the Evoluent for gaming, get the wired usb model, not wireless. Wired is much faster and more accurate. But this is true with any wireless mouse.
Thanks for your advice! 🙌
This was very helpful, thanks a bunch !
No problem at all, thank you for watching! 🙋
interesting content... on the edge of pre-ordering your new keyboard, but I'd love to hear/see what your ideas are for using the popo-pins ?
We are exploring different options, including extra keys and a trackball module 😊
I love the idea of this comparison/review but it's incomplete without evaluating the thumb buttons and tracking! It's not a glove, it's a computer accessory so please tell us how well it *actually performs* in regular use. Next time 🙂
We'll take that in account when making the 2024 video 💪
O.O is Dygma labs considering making a vertical mouse? I haven't converted to vertical mice because I use the horizontal scroll wheel on my MX Master 3 too often, but it would be very interesting to watch how you might design one... But first I need to buy a Defy!
Oh, yeah! We are designing a mystery device to soothe this need for a pointing device that's ergonomic and awesome 🤐
I like the content of the video but my verdict is, it depends on the user. Although it gives ideas to people if they are not familiar with vertical mice or haven't tried one yet or planning to buy one. I bought a lot of OEM vertical mice though ZELOTES is the best one for me. The only thing stupid buying it online (Philippines) all of the mice that I bought - the LED's are not working (the red LED at the bottom with the sensor). Funny thing is the mice is still working perfectly hahaha.
We agree on that, in the end, it all comes down to factors like: the habits of the user, the shape and size of the hand, the grip, the space to move the mouse, the budget, the type of activity... that's why we encourage people to test and see which is best for them, like you're doing by testing those Zelotes 😉
Hope you find the perfect fit in no time, and the LEDs work as intended 💪
heaven on earth this video. i have the delux m618 (best mouse ever) and i was always curious how big are the rest. Thanks. subscribed
Nice, thanks for the sub! We want to continue creating fun and engaging content 💪
I'm a gamer, and I always thought Vertical mouse were a joke, but... after the pain in my hands, I'm really looking forward to try these :) I wanted the regnrok trigger, but... it's out of stock
Totally get the skepticism about vertical mice for gaming, but given the hand pain, it's worth a shot 💪
I have the Logitech MX and really like it, but not ideal. I would have given the Lift a shot, but since there is no optional wire to plug in directly to the computer, that means having to buy batteries.
Yeah, needed to buy batteries is not ideal 🔋
Also, you totally missed the posturite Penguin ambidextrous mouse, which has been working for me for many many years now. They have different sizes and it’s got to be the most vertical mouse of them all.
Yes, we couldn't review them all. Maybe next year we'll do another one!
oh my god... in my country and in Russia (as i have noticed in a lot of videos about computer mice) , people call the price only over 100$ as an expansive one 🤕that is why it sounds so strange from those people, especially because an average salary is nearly 200-300 $ there 🙁
And here, you guys are so realistic, i totally love it 🥰
You don't have those fake masks telling "eww, you cant buy a mouse for 150 $ almost as soon as you walked in the store? its not a mouse being expensive, its just you being poor, haha! " and so on.. Also thank you so much for a great detailed analysis from a lot of perspectives ☺
Oh, by the way, Evoluent-Mouse costs 200$ in my country
I guess $100 is also quite some money here in Spain too 😅
Great video, thanks! In the Anker section of the video you talk about pain at the pisiform (part of the hand that touches the desk), and I have the exact same problem with it. You say that you eliminated the problem by going back to a non-vertical mouse, but have you used vertical mice since? I am wondering which vertical mouse I should choose that wouldn't have this problem that I have with Anker. Should I choose a bigger mouse like MX Vertical so my hand doesn't slide on the desk as much, or would literally any mouse eliminate this issue as long as it's not Anker? Thanks!
Some vertical mice have a place to rest your hand and slide it with the mouse without sliding it along the table. You can also try a bigger mouse to avoid resting your wrist on the table at all.
The problem I see with the lift is that it doesn't have a USB C connector. I like using my mouse wired. I have a MX Vertical, and I was so confortable with it, that I bought a second one so that I can have one for work and other for home. The problem is that they both started having problems with the main keys at the same time 2 years efter the purchase (coinciding with the end of the warranty), so I'm not sure if I want to risk to buy another one, but there doesn't seem to be a better alternative.
It's so hard to find a good mouse! I'm sorry that you've had issues with it 🙏
@@DygmaLab I finally bought another one but with a 2 year extended warranty. So that amounts to a total of 5 years.
👏 Smart! 💪
theres just alot of negative comments regarding logitech mouse especially the left click starts double clicking after about 6 months of use. Do you face the same issue to date?
We haven't had that issue but we only have like 2 of each 😅
They are used daily though 😀
@@DygmaLab oh! thank you for responding!
I use a dark oak desk. The best I have used and am still looking for something better is the Zelotes C-18. The Anker was very disappointing. I returned it. They make good chargers but their vertical mouse is embarrassing. I use my C-18 for intensive long-hour gaming sessions, including FPS titles and PvP. It can basically track on anything.
The Anker is barely functional. It almost cannot track at all. I would highly recommend anyone stuck between Anker or Zelotes always buy Zelotes and only get Anker chargers/cables. Anker has no idea what it's doing with mouse design and I am almost completely sure their mouse is just a generic unit with the Anker brand slapped on it. Zelotes does that too, but their mice actually work.
The Anker has sharp edges, slippery plastic, and a terrible sensor. Avoid it. Spend the extra $10 for something that works.
I have a Zelotes C-18 and an F-17. The F-17 is similar in design to the T-30. Because of gravity your hand slips off it, it's not very ergonomic and the censor is just alright. The C-18 is so much better.
Personally I'm moving towards using trackballs. I've got a Trackman Marble and I've got my eye on the Nulea M505, it's a new company but looks pretty interesting. I'll be picking one up next month probably.
C-18
Pros:
-Best sensor I know of in an affordable vertical mouse
-Can handle hardcore gaming
-Relatively comfortable
-LMB and RMB are easy to actuate
-software is versatile
Cons:
-joystick d-pad thing is iffy, cool gimmick but hard to use well
-back and forward buttons are way too far away, no one would ever comfortably be able to use them
-scroll wheel can get sticky/hard to push over time
-LED to display DPI setting at the top cannot be turned off
-software is buggy with saving multiple profiles
-DPI switch is not easily reachable during normal use
-there is a useless weight block that only can be removed if you open the case/mod it
-because of the weight block you end up straining your hand to move the mouse around and sort of move it diagonally rather than perfectly horizontally (not an issue functionally once you adjust, but it's worth mentioning)
C-18 is good simply because most companies seem to put terrible sensors in their vertical mice
the sensor isn't top of the line, but it actually works, almost no jitter at all, no skipping, doesn't spin out
Thank you for your review Zozihn, it gives a lot more context to what we showed in the video. We also like trackballs a lot... maybe in the future we can make one ourselves, that would be super fun 🤔
I have the one you guys said it makes no logic. For me it's superconfortable, I palm it and my hand fits very well the shape makes total sense and my hand doesn't slip. but good to hear other opinions and options. :D
Ergonomics can be very particular 😅 Glad it works for you! 😊
Guys, what an entertaining video. I did literally the same review for myself and spent hours. You forgot to review the penguin mouse and the R-Go HE Mouse. The R-Go is similar to the Evoluent but in my opinion the better option and it comes in 3 different sizes as well. I have very large hands with claw grip, I think the R-Go fits better for the palm grip. Still I always go back to the Logitech MX Master just because of the scroll wheel! Unfortunately I have not yet found the perfect mouse.
Nice! Logitech has some of the best around, no doubt. We are working on something new too that we want you guys to try.
More on that soon 🤐