Nice review, but a word of critique. When comparing several mice simultaneously, please use less pronouns like 'it', 'this one', 'that one' and just use names, don't be afraid of tautology. There were occasions where I couldn't see the gesture, that pointed to the mouse in topic or just didn't understand out of context.
Ha, tautology. That's not the right word, I guess Anaphora-based redundancy would probably be the right one, but yea this is a very good tip. Anaphora is only good in circumstances where you deal with "it's obvious which thing I'm talking about", ie when you're only handling one thing. In a 38 minute comparison video... referential clarity is certainly NOT a given.
@@MrRedstonefreedom Yeah, I thought there should be a more accurate word, but didn't know about it. Guessed tautology would be close enough to understand the point.
One thing I really like about this video is it continues to demonstrate how ergonomics are such a personal thing. I have the Delux RGB vertical mouse they showed but didn't really like. I absolutely love it and I use it without the palm rest. I have one of those super huge gaming mouse pads. I tend to do a combination of claw grip and arm move with that mouse and it works great set at 1200dpi. I also agree with the comment about the need to look out for the issue of a vertical mouse putting too much pressure on the corner wrist bone. While I love the vertical mouse, it did take some getting used to and teaching myself to rest most of the length of the side of my hand on the mouse pad next to the vertical mouse to avoid the corner wrist bone issue.
I love mine too. So much more comfortable than a standard gaming mouse, and great price, too. I use the palm rest but still competitive at FPS. It just takes practice. Wish there were more vertical gaming mice available.
I have been using vertical mice for about 3 years now and while the Logitech Vertical made the pain in my arms a lot worse, I have found relief in the Evoluent D/4. It is true that the Evoluent are a bit flimsy and the design very retro they are extremely comfortable to use!
I've been using the big wired DELUX for a couple years and I love it. It's super comfortable even in my medium size hands, I am just as competitive at FPS, and it works fine at low sensitivities too. It's not as silly as they make it look in this video. Best of all, no wrist pain.
We're happy that you like it. Luis is a bit over the top sometimes. He does the same with our own products, the smallest of things can be a dealbreaker for him 😅
Same here. I have the J-TECH version with slightly different buttons. It's by far the most comfortable vertical I've tried but it is cheap. I really wish someone would make a higher quality one in the same style so I don't have to buy a new one every year.
I have small hands and I have the MX vertical from Logitech. I've been using that mouse for the last three years and it's pretty comfortable, you don't have to have large hands to be able to use it. The vertical mouse and split keyboard is what stopped my arm and hand from hurting.
I did that with the Contour Mouse many years ago (seriously like 2007). Medium seemed too small; traded it for Large, which was too big (and too big was worse).
Y'all were acting pretty goofy at first, but y'all came together and did the absolute best product breakdown review for anything I have ever watched. Bravo!
20:25 I use this one since well over a year now and I don't see any downside when it comes to gaming. I like that you grip it more like a joystick, compared to all the flatter ones. The only big issue I have is that the rubber thingies on the bottom started to peel off and there seems to be no perfect replacement rubber online
Could you please add a section to your video where you click on the mouse with the voice meter? It is crucial to me to know how those mouses sounds (I am looking for a silent click).
I am a user of Evoluent. Besides the shape, I find having 3 fully customable finger buttons to be a deal breaker. It makes so much more sense to have a dedicated button for double clicking - otherwise the index finger is disproportionately overloaded, doing all the clicks and double clicks
@@DygmaLab I would not complain about the materials. The mouse has worked for 3 years / 60 hours per week in office applications and still looks like new. Nothing is wobbly or producing extra noise when squeezing either. Design-wise, I would appreciate softer switches, but that is a personal preference I believe. What I do not like is that I cannot use the mouse properly, when the hand is relaxed - the pinky keeps rubbing against the table. To prevent that I would prefer a much larger wing. I had to craft my own attachment out of cardboard to compensate for a small wing
can we get a video on trackballs? I know that they're a niche category of mice - but are definitely an ergonomic option (especially the Logitech MX Ergo Plus)
Now that mouse components have been miniaturized, I think there might be a better solution than a vertical mouse: A pen-mouse which remains standing in place when you release it. I hacked together a prototype last week, and so far it's the most natural and ergonomic input device I've ever used.
I have the Trust GXT 144 Gaming REXX mouse and I realised aster having this mouse for 3 years that I have the habit of clawing my mouse...so since my scroll wheel makes pages jumps up and down (I'm going to try to open it and clean it) I'm also looking at different vertical mice.
I have the Evoluent, I started with medium and thought it felt a bit too small for my hand. So i swapped for a large... now it's too big! I feel like goldilocks I'm really excited to figure out why there's so many vertical mice lying around in the Dygma office... :D
They started appearing out of nowhere... 🐭 We actually wanted to make this video for all of you and it is also part of a resear... Oh, I can't say that yet? Sorry... 🤐
I think the Anker AK-UBA (the concave one at 25:18) is popular because the irregular shape means it's easier to use in a claw grip. I hold my mouse with my fingertips and perform most of the motion with my fingers, a little bit with my wrist, and virtually none with my elbow or shoulder. I tried a wireless version of the Delux M618 Plus (19:26) and, as you pointed out, it leans hard into palming the mouse and using your entire arm to move it. I hated it and quickly returned it. The Anker's concave design, on the other hand, looks like it would be more claw-grip friendly, as my palm wouldn't be blocking it and I'd be able to rely on my fingers to steer it. Also, do you guys have any plans to expand into ergonomic mouse territory? I'm interested in getting a vertical mouse, but I'm not willing to drop my Logitech G604 because I love the customizable thumb buttons (and onboard memory) and no vertical mouse has those features. Seems like an untapped market if you ask me.
Oh yeah, we want to join the party! We are currently working on a mystery device that will fight with the current available vertical mouse in the market 😏
@@DygmaLab ...I'm intrigued. But like I said, if it doesn't have the programmable thumb buttons (or a suitable replacement), I'm probably not going to buy it.
One thing I've always wanted is to have some buttons on the right side of the mouse which are never used. I thought that when using the xbox, on an xbox the thumbs are overused, but on a mouse, the middle, ring and pinkie fingers are underused. I could see 3 normal buttons for the pointer to ringer finger would be great will the scroll mouse somewhere in the middle. But I think for the sake of the scroll mouse, it gets in the way to be used as a third middle button. But going crazy, I don't see why you couldn't have 4 buttons for all the fingers except the thumb. And then having multiple buttons on the thumb like the razer. Another idea that you could implement is that it's super important try try all of this out, so maybe you can send people, or for like 15$ people cab purchase 5 different shells to see what each size mouse feels like to your hand. I would pay for that to feel the size and the clicks of the mouse and when I'm ready then I know exactly what size mice you offer to buy. I really wish there were more buttons in better places like I mentioned and that the mice were customized better with my hand. I got the large Anker mouse, and I didn't realize it but it is far too large for my hand and although I thought the slant would help, the largeness requires more pressure to push and negates that advantage. So yea, i would invest in an awesome mouse. I really like the exchangeable buttons layout here on the razer, however, it doesn't implement the buttons idea on the top or right like I mentioned: www.amazon.com/Razer-Naga-Wireless-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B08D27XXRY/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2F92N7JZ6FB4R&keywords=wireless+mouse+multiple+side+buttons&qid=1703832203&s=electronics&sprefix=wireless+mouse+multiple+side+button%2Celectronics%2C130&sr=1-3
The amount of buttons to place on a mouse is a bit delicate. On one hand, more buttons = more possibilities and functions. However, they are also more confusing for the user. The exact amount depens more on the design of the mouse, and where is comfortable to place how many buttons. It's better to have 4 comfortable buttons than 6 uncomfortable ones, because in the end, 2 end up unused. Developing fewer buttons but a better software is probably the best way to go. We completely agree that the mouse should have better sizing, and even modularity to adapt to the size of the hand, that should be a must at this point. Hopefully we can do something in the future to fix it 😊
What bugs me about this kind of mouse is that if you use a high cursor speed, then the tiny movement of the mouse that occurs when you click can sometimes make you miss what you're trying to click on.
Due to some shoulder issues recently got a trackball mouse. After a short adaptation period I very much enjoy it! My shoulder gets some rest from mousing and as an added bonus the ball acts as a fidget toy during downtime.
Just seeing this now after getting a pale grey Logitech Lift and you guys nailed it on the head. This is the best vertical (or even horizontal mouse) I've had.
Nice! I have a Lift too and even though my hands are "too big" according to the it works just fine. Super comfortable and definitely one of the best when we consider build quality and materials used 😻
@@ulquiorra7446 I have a Zelotes C-18 and I don't like it and don't use it. Currently I'm using a VXE Dragonfly R1 which is superior in any aspect to any vertical mice in the market. Verical mice are a stupid fad.
I actually love the J-tech pink mouse, honestly imo the glossy is sometimes better if you want more grip with your hand, i used it for few years & still going strong, can't complain
Unfortunately I couldn't find a wireless version of the Zelotes C-18. I actually like the idea of a joystick on top with customizable input for gaming, but wired-only is a dealbreaker for me. I've been claw-gripping the Logitech MX Vertical as my daily work/gaming mouse for about 9 months and agree with their assessments - I have larger hands and don't have a problem with the grip, but having to slide my thumb up to use the side buttons is a little irritating because it usually causes the mouse to slide slightly forward and right. I also had the same ulnar pain Luis mentioned, which was alleviated by adding a wrist cushion to my setup. Hopefully someday soon we'll get a high-quality, wireless, gaming-oriented vertical mouse...perhaps from Dygma??
I don't know where this numbers come from, but I know a lot left handed people and all of them use mouse with left hand. Maybe there are not many options with ergonomic mouses for lefties on the market, so that's why some of them decides to use right hand?
The numbers came from a survey we did when we were creating the Raise. It could be that this is enforced by the market not making good mice for lefties, though 🤔
Thanks for taking the time to make this video. I decided on the J-Tech Digital V638. It arrived today and I instantly adapted to it. No learning curve!!
I myself did a pretty extensive personal review of a bunch of mice featured in this video. Unfortunately none of them qualified as true vert gaming mouse. The closest were the Trust Gaming GXT 144 and the Zelotes C-18. The Trust doesn't support n-key, multiple buttons pressed at once. The Zelotes C-18 has very poor teflon pads, they feel sandy and ruined my mousepad. Yes I took off the protective film. The buttons were failing and double-clicking after only a week of use. If anyone could suggest a right hand vert gaming mouse with at least 500hz polling rate, customizable software control panel and good construction, please let me know!
That's a tall order to ask 😅 Most manufacturers forcus the vertical designs for productivity, and those models don't need that level of specs. For sure, in the future it will be possible; for now, we have not found something of that kind, let us know if yo find one 😉
@DygmaLab Thanks for the explanation and advice. I've decided to get a logi superlight and mod it into a vert with sugru. the mainboard and button subboards are separate. I'll report back with my results. Thanks again for all the cool project demos. It's super inspiring!
Great review, congrats. I'm from Brazil and I've had a MX vertical for 6 years. I opened it for the first time this week, the left button was working badly. I was surprised by the size of the battery, I expected it to be bigger because it is excellent, the battery lasts around 3 to 4 months in my usage. I work with electrical engineer, with CAD design software, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. The buttons are excellent for adjusting shortcuts, the top one I use as “Enter”, the side ones as “esc” and “delete” for more agility. As said in the video, it fits very well in my hands, which are large, but I also recommend it for those with smaller hands, the other Logitech model has no comparison, the MX vertical has a durable and well-adherent rubber pad, its body is very resistant and it is a battery and not a battery. I watched the video looking for another option but probably when it can't hold up anymore, I'll buy another one.
I have the Logitech MX and really like it, but not ideal. I would have given the Lift a shot, but since there is no optional wire to plug in directly to the computer, that means having to buy batteries.
I have been using several vertical mice but with time, eventually my wrist will start hurting again and would always look for a higher angle every single time. I think I'll try the Evoluent ones next because of the steep angle. I really wish they invested more on the materials and the build because it's such a let down.
In addition to the characteristics mentioned in the video, it is also very important what is needed in each specific case. Let's hope that the Evoluent fits what you are looking for! Let us know how it goes! 😍
Great video. I have to mention... that is not what OEM means, it kind of means the opposite of what you're describing. It's an abbreviation for Original Equipment Manufacturer. The best example I can think of is if you have an iPhone and are using the cable that shipped with the phone, that's the OEM cable. If you bought a cable from a random company on Amazon (whose name is probably a series of meaningless letters) it's a non-OEM cable. I currently have the shiny Evoluent mouse because I have massive hands and was looking for a comparison of their 3 models to see if I wanted to change for another model. You're right, the finish is pretty crappy, and after a while the chrome gets rubbed off and looks even worse. For me, the 3rd button is essential because I do 3D modeling and it's nice to have to navigate in 3D space, pressing in a scroll wheel for a middle mouse button pretty much sucks.
The point we're trying to make here is that there are OEM mice, where the model is identical and comes from the same factory, but different brands purchase it and modify certain details or elements in the firmware to personalize it. However, the underlying model remains the same 😊
I have been using the Evoluent VerticalMouse 4 for years as a work mouse (I won't game on a vertical mouse). I have just bought the Logitech MX Vertical as I wanted to go wireless. I debated on going with the Lift b/c it's smaller and less expensive, but the dealbreaker was the Lift requires a AAA battery while the Vertical has a rechargeable battery. I'll take the latter any day. If I feel the Vertical is too big for me, then I may return and swap. Having said, that, wince I've been using the Evoluent, which is fairly big, for years. I hopefully won't have an issue.
This is the first video of yours that I have seen, and you won me over from the start with the great fairy background music placed oh so perfectly there.
I have a medium sized hand (based on Logitech sizing guide) and a palm grip. I've been using the Anker vertical mouse for a couple of years now. It's been okay. Battery life is pretty terrible. I have to replace the 2AA batteries every few months. And the scroll wheel is starting to wear out I suppose because it's very glitchy now, especially if you just want "one click" in either direction. It'll scroll down one then scroll back up quite frequently. Precise scrolling just isn't possible. I'm eyeing the Logitech Lift now. I didn't even know it existed until today and the price point of the MX Vertical kept me away from that in the past.
Oh yeah, the Lift is a bit cheaper than the MX Vertical and it should suit your medium hands just fine. We are also working on a solution ourselves but it's not coming in the near future unfortunately 🤐
This is a good watch! Though I feel like the moral of the story here is that there isn't really any "outstanding" ergonomic mice on the market. Each and every one of these have a compromise somewhere along the way, whether it be in the features, form, or quality. Then on top of that, the quality-to-cost ratio is generally just not very good, where it feels like you're paying a premium just for the shape while the rest of the mouse features are second-rate. There is one mouse in particular I've had a keen interest in called the "Penguin Mouse" that I had the opportunity to test some time back. It takes a pretty unique take on the ergonomic mouse by changing the grip to what is essentially a gun grip! The primary mouse buttons are situated like gun triggers with the middle scroll wheel nested between them and there's a wide palm rest for the hand to rest on. It basically takes the more "joystick" like mouse design from the few you've tested in this video, but takes the concept a full step further. Conceptually it's a super interesting mouse and I found it exceptionally comfortable to hold and use but like many options on this list, you pay a premium for the shape alone while everything else like the sensor, mouse buttons, and scroll wheel are just really subpar. But the _concept_ of the mouse I personally feel is very much worth exploring for the potential! If you're interested in looking at it yourself, here's a video about it! If you end up trying it out, I'd be curious what your thoughts are on it. th-cam.com/video/_UXVb25JY8E/w-d-xo.html Thanks again for this video! Just like this channel in general, this is incredibly helpful in filling in an otherwise pretty empty knowledge base.
I’ve been using a Penguin mouse lately, and yeah, the build quality and features aren’t great But the form is interesting. For a while I was holding it almost like a gear shift. It’s stable enough to use that way with your hand on top of the “joystick”. Not how it’s intended, but the buttons stretch reachable so it worked. And that put my hand right at the height to go over to the tented Raise. Keeping my elbow straight. Interesting possibilities
Thank you for sharing this! It's like you said, the current market doesn't have an obvious model that we would recommend to everyone because it really depends on what you want 😢 Do you want something that looks good? Wireless? Comfortable and silent clicks? None of them has all of this. The idea is that we can fill that gap with our mystery device, a perfect solution for all those "problems" 😏 I've heard before about the Penguin but haven't tried that. I'll forward to the team to check if we can grab one to check.
Got an MX vertical for the ergonomics (didn't realise there were so many other options) and while I truly enjoy it, the greatest feature I've found is the software it comes with "logi+ options". Working on mac and PC at same time for work, using the software, you can hover on the edge of the screen and the mouse will transfer to the other OS computer. (You won't have to click the preset button to switch between PC's anymore, thus saving precious tie if you are wanting to be efficient at work. Thats not all, this phenomenal software also allows you to copy and paste between OS (before I had to use a local server, or thumb drive to transfer contents). Phenomenal time saving technology for me, with added bonus of ergonomics
The problem I see with the lift is that it doesn't have a USB C connector. I like using my mouse wired. I have a MX Vertical, and I was so confortable with it, that I bought a second one so that I can have one for work and other for home. The problem is that they both started having problems with the main keys at the same time 2 years efter the purchase (coinciding with the end of the warranty), so I'm not sure if I want to risk to buy another one, but there doesn't seem to be a better alternative.
The HP 920 Ergonomic Vertical Mouse Wireless looks to have come out after your video. It is really good. The magnetically attaching wrist pad is large, so your hand just rests unless you are actively moving the mouse or clicking. No lifting of the hands at all to use it and no rubbing on the table. It is a louder click that is snappy like any typical non-soft click mouse.
I've been using the Zelotes C-18 for about 3 years now. In terms of shape it's pretty comfortable. No problem with the clicks, the DPI is good. I use it for gaming and don't have any problems with the sensor. My main gripe is that I've had 2 of these mice and the scroll wheel has broken on both fairly quickly. It will still scroll sometimes but not at a consistent rate, sometimes scrolling up instead of down. I'm not going to buy another one unless they fix that issue, switching to the Logitech Lift tomorrow.
Deluxe seeker M618XSD is my favorite mouse so far. It has good poling rate up to 1000hz, thumb wheel, li-ion battery, can work by wire, bt and 2.4Ghz, and even backlight. Every button can be remapped, I remapped rhumb wheel to vertical one which is extremely useful) Before this one I had Trust voxx, it has better ergonomics but solwer sensor and does not have thumb wheel)
Thank you so much for your comment! I've been fed up with regular mouse shapes for the past few months now but I just couldn't find anyone mentioning polling rates when talking about vertical mice. As gaming is the mouses main purpose for me, a good sensor is the only criteria it needs to meet. You're comment hopefully just ended my search so thanks again!
@@scruffex3736 Not sure whether vertical mouse is good choice for gaming, at least ones that require fast and accurate movement. They usually heavier and you use other, probably untrained muscles to drag it which makes it feel clumsy. But there is a possibility that it`s just my experience and your will be different)
So... is this a new channel?? It is the only explanation I can find on why they don't have more subscribers and viewers. That was a really nice video!!
If you design a better mouse than the lift... I would probably buy it. Accuracy and stability are key. Also, if you just prevent putting your wrist flat to the desk somehow, it would be a big deal ... so you don't pinch the vains to the desk. You might not have to go completely vertical. ... also try out the ms sculpt. The lift is also no grippy enough... it is sometimes hard to "lift" it (claw grip). I think somekind of 15-20* angle might be enough.
@@DygmaLab I've got to say... actually after a few days of getting used to ... the lift feels prety comfortable ... I've got fairly big medium hands (almost 19cm). I do notice an increased resitance of sliding because of more friction at the bottom in comparison with the logitech m720. Also I use a simple mousepad to dampen the pressure of the wristknuckle. I sometimes switch with a gel-pad ... but havn't decided yet if this is better or not... because of more contact of the wrist sinking into the gel.
can anyone tell me about where the weight of their hand sits with a vertical mouse? on my atnadard mouse a lot of weight rests right on the outer heel of my palm, very painful, and I don't want the weight there.
Ideally, the mouse should have a place to rest your hand on it, or the shape should distribute the weight properly. If you rest it like you describe it, it's painful.
I have a small/medium hand and I´m using a logitel lift for a few days now. But I have from first day that same unconfortable feeling in that bone of my hand, that you had with the CLS E-VE mouse !? In my work there is a evoluent vertikal 4 wich feels much more confortable.
We don't know all the mice of the market but you can check this list to find the sensor you are looking for 😊 sensor.fyi/sensors/ . The polling rate is not just the sensor but also the firmware and the communication protocol
Really good and informative video. I think they 2 host conversational style is great; it has a natural and welcoming feel that I prefer over the usual style of one person talking at the camera. Noticing about halfway through that the subtle BGM is a FF7 remix was also a nice touch. Didn't notice the music at first, but then said "Heeeeeey! I know that!" Keep up the good work, first video I've seen from this channel but it's an instant subscribe for me!
O.O is Dygma labs considering making a vertical mouse? I haven't converted to vertical mice because I use the horizontal scroll wheel on my MX Master 3 too often, but it would be very interesting to watch how you might design one... But first I need to buy a Defy!
I wish someone would make a modern version of the evoluent. I've been using their Bluetooth Mac version for over a decade, but looking for something new. The materials on the Mac Bluetooth version are even more plasticky and glossy than the others and I hate the feel. I got the white version and have to clean it off every week as it's a dirt/oil magnet. Would love a soft rubbery version. Even though it feels cheap it has lasted over 10 years of heavy continuous use so can't complain too much. Main reason for looking is that the index button has finally worn out and it does 2x-7x clicks with each click. I wish I could buy a vertical mouse with premium materials, soft mouse clicks and modern sensor that has the form factor of the evoluent. I use all the programmable buttons every day and find them very conveniently placed and wish it actually had more buttons available. I have thought about buying a new evoluent, replacing the sensor (there's a guide on how to hack it) and plastidipping the glossy parts, that's how desperate I am as there are no other good options.
theres just alot of negative comments regarding logitech mouse especially the left click starts double clicking after about 6 months of use. Do you face the same issue to date?
@DygmaLab Yeah it was amazing! I got it last June. It was my first venture into the vertical mouse world. I was expecting to need a few weeks to get used to it and wasn't expecting to use it for gaming at all, but about an hour in and I absolutely loved it, and a few days later I was using it for everything, including gaming! Now normal mice feel weird and awkward to use. lol It's so comfortable and natural to use! My only complaint is that it doesn't have any RGB, but that's a very minor gripe. 🙂 I've had multiple people try it for a few minutes because they had never seen anything like it before, and they all agree how comfortable it is. The left mouse button started dying about a week ago, which makes it really hard to do things sometimes, but I think that's because when I was playing games I may have pressed way too hard a few times😅.
That's awesome! What is the size of your hand from the bottom of your palm up until the highest finger? Maybe you could also chec with Logi if they have warranty to revive that Lift. I've heard they have pretty good warranty standards 😊
@@DygmaLab My hand is about 6in, or 152mm from the bottom of my palm to the tip of my middle finder. I'd say I have a small/medium hand. contacting Logi actually a good idea. It can't hurt, and worst case scenario, I'll just buy another one since it seems I stumbled upon the best one (for now) on my first try. Hopefully another Lyft can last me until a better vertical mouse comes around😉
Woo! Hopefully that "No Particular Reason" is something I've been asking for since I got my Raise back when it was first announced. I can only imagine how good an ergo mouse from Dygma can be. That said, I bought a cheap Anker awhile ago, it's okay, but ultimately there just wasn't enough useful features like my gaming mouse. So if you are working on a new future product I'd love to have several buttons in the groove that the thumb rests in for macros and other nice features for gaming and work. I know the Raise and Defy have so many wonderful key combos that make life easier, but having some built into the mouse would be incredible as well. Thanks for reading. Can't wait for the Defy to finally be in my hands. Good luck with everything! EDIT: Also wanted to add that your attention to detail and analysis of what's wrong with current products is wonderful.
Thank you, Dane! You know us, we want to make something excellent and that's going to impact the whole market, that's why we're taking extra care to make it right 💪
Also, you totally missed the posturite Penguin ambidextrous mouse, which has been working for me for many many years now. They have different sizes and it’s got to be the most vertical mouse of them all.
I have Delux m618 Plus at office after one week of using I took of the palm rest and it works for me. In my case it's realy good and I'm satisfied. Sometimes I'm using Delux m618xsd also without palm rest and it's even little bit more comfortable.
First of, whoever picked the lofi final fantasy mix for the background music needs a raise. I'm a medium hands claw grip, and I've used the anker and am now with the zelotes c-18, the scroll wheel is starting to go after one year of daily 12 hour use so I'll be getting something new soon. One thing that I want to add is that the "joystick" on top of it is a complete gimmick and is not a joystick at all, its a clickable d-pad at best, it is at an angle and on top of the mouse making so that you are either using that or using the mouse so I would buy the cheaper non "joystick" version. Regarding the use of buttons, I use them very often for the backwards/fowards commands in the browser, but not a lot in gamming as I used to do with horizontal mice. I think that something I would like to see is a mouse with one button on top and one on the bottom that is intended to be used with the knuckle of the thumb by sliding it on the mouse's surface. There could be space for more buttons on the click side of the mouse especially for use with pinky or ring finger. On a separate note, some brands (delux does this) are starting to have hadn size and grip reccomendations with their mice. Great video and I'll be waiting for the Dygma vertical claw and vertical palm mice
I tried to buy an identical version of this joystick mouse with different branding and the scroll wheel arrived broken. If you are (or anyone is) thinking of trying a different brand or wondering if you mashed it in any way. It's not you. The wheel is defective. We need fully redesigned internals built in this form factor.
My problem with mice is that I'm set on having one with 6+ side buttons and use palm, which makes it difficult to find any. I'm currently using a Razer Naga Trinity with 7 side buttons, however it is not the most comfortable with palming, because the side buttons are too close to the wrist. And now find a vertical mouse with that.
I totally understand, mice with extra buttons are tough to find. My brother has a G600 from Logitech and really loves it, they are very similar, but maybe it works better for you? You can check their shape here at this link: t.ly/EccO
@@DygmaLab Thanks for the reply; cool website. Shape is basically the same. Also too many buttons for me. I hope that you guys will do something with more buttons, maybe with hot swappable sides so you can choose. Also as y'all don't seem to shy away from crazier ideas: how about more locations for buttons (next to right or left click, ring finger)?
Have the Logitech MX and I just hate how it is impossible to clean and their software is annoying as hell. Hard to know what your actual conclusions are with how you did this video. Very confusing.
The main conclusion is that there's no conclusion: there's no vertical mouse that's perfect for everybody. You need to draw your own conclusion based on the information we provided.
Great video, thanks! In the Anker section of the video you talk about pain at the pisiform (part of the hand that touches the desk), and I have the exact same problem with it. You say that you eliminated the problem by going back to a non-vertical mouse, but have you used vertical mice since? I am wondering which vertical mouse I should choose that wouldn't have this problem that I have with Anker. Should I choose a bigger mouse like MX Vertical so my hand doesn't slide on the desk as much, or would literally any mouse eliminate this issue as long as it's not Anker? Thanks!
Some vertical mice have a place to rest your hand and slide it with the mouse without sliding it along the table. You can also try a bigger mouse to avoid resting your wrist on the table at all.
Hello. Can you please share what sensor the DeLux MV6 uses? Is that good for gaming? By gaming I mean actual true gaming and not primarily focusing on CSGO, COD, Valorant and other bulls#it
That Anker's design is terrible for the thumb! I've used it for some time. And I discovered that i'm trying to support the mouse with my thumb, unconsciously. That made my thumb hurt so much that I've given up on that mouse in 3 weeks max. Switched to microsoft sculpt mouse.
Thanks for sharing your experience! We had a similar feeling, it forces the thumb inside too much to keep the mouse stable. Glad to know you were able to find a model that worked for you!
this man has a reviewing talent , I really loved the way he explains every thing about every model and viewing his opinion in a very objective way ,my admire and respect to this review ,I didn't see any professional review like this for a long time. 👍
Yeah they're really nice! Those are 3D panels from Amazon www.amazon.es/Paneles-paneles-unidades-aspecto-diamante/dp/B0C2TYYGLZ/ref=s[…]es+3d,aps,96&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1
I guess your website is not meant to be used on mobile because the screen was bouncing all over the place and I couldn't control it. Try to scroll down, it bounces back up
FYI their are numerous right handed users that use the mouse in their left hands. Mainly people that work with numbers like accountants. They use the mouse with their left hand and the number pad with their right hand to enter numbers. not sure if your surveys would have picked up people like this
I have too many keyboards. If you make mice, I’d love to buy one or more. I am right handed but I use mice on my left hand to ease the burden on my right hand.
Cool! Normally vertical mouse are not ambidextrous though. We're working on a mystery device, but we are not creating a left-hand version. We've explained that it would be harder to produce that as we would have to meet the minimum order quantities and all that 😢
@@DygmaLab Thank you for the response. That is correct I've only tried found one southpaw vertical mouse. I typical use a trackball on my left. I would love to see what the mystery product is! I have enjoyed supported your company and loved my original dygma. Thanks!
This was such a nice concise review, but the audio was hard to hear for me, not sure if anyone else encountered that. At times the movement of the mouse was louder than his voice.
No trackball mice in this review? Mx ergo w/trackball is not bad. Because it’s not vertical? I think the ultimate mouse would be a vertical trackball mouse. Do you know if any exist?
I think a vert.trackball mouse would be the best because it allows for the least wrist movement and the most comfortable “floating” use. “Floating” mouse-use is next-level, for those who have super-severe chronic repetitive stress injury In the wrists( like myself)
Would be interested in a video about the ergonomics of split keyboards in combination with a graphic tablet ! (for which i have found very little info)
I have been using Delux M618 for more than 6 years. A cable/wired version. I am with my second mouse right now, the wheel on the old one broke a year ago. Six years of heavy use should justify this mouse's durability. The wheel has the ability to sweep left-right, you can click it for a click-drag maneuver. The grip and movement are conveniently acceptable. I only have one problem with it, in my case I cannot customize its auxiliary thumb-side buttons. Delux has many copies, with identical design but different independent brands. Although the different brands share its comfortable grip design but the clicking and cursor movement experience can be under Delux's quality. I use Macbook and I am doing a lot of photo editing. Vertical mouse has been very helpful in reducing my wrist strain. I tried other vertical mice but many of them are either too slim (I need some mass to hold) or not vertical enough, so far Delux M618 design fits my palm better.
Thank you very much for sharing your experience with us 😊 Also, great to hear you found a mouse that adapts to your hand, that's the complicated part. Like you point, and Luis mentions, the most important is being able to test a lot and find one that does not compromise the grip. Glad to hear you're improving from those wrist pains!
Nice review, but a word of critique. When comparing several mice simultaneously, please use less pronouns like 'it', 'this one', 'that one' and just use names, don't be afraid of tautology. There were occasions where I couldn't see the gesture, that pointed to the mouse in topic or just didn't understand out of context.
You're totally right. Note taken for future videos 😊
Ha, tautology. That's not the right word, I guess Anaphora-based redundancy would probably be the right one, but yea this is a very good tip. Anaphora is only good in circumstances where you deal with "it's obvious which thing I'm talking about", ie when you're only handling one thing. In a 38 minute comparison video... referential clarity is certainly NOT a given.
@@MrRedstonefreedom Yeah, I thought there should be a more accurate word, but didn't know about it. Guessed tautology would be close enough to understand the point.
np homie@@Udrys999
#threeblindmice
One thing I really like about this video is it continues to demonstrate how ergonomics are such a personal thing. I have the Delux RGB vertical mouse they showed but didn't really like. I absolutely love it and I use it without the palm rest. I have one of those super huge gaming mouse pads. I tend to do a combination of claw grip and arm move with that mouse and it works great set at 1200dpi. I also agree with the comment about the need to look out for the issue of a vertical mouse putting too much pressure on the corner wrist bone. While I love the vertical mouse, it did take some getting used to and teaching myself to rest most of the length of the side of my hand on the mouse pad next to the vertical mouse to avoid the corner wrist bone issue.
Nice to hear it worked for you!
Thank you for sharing your experience. Once we release ours, we want to replace that one you currently have 😏
I love mine too. So much more comfortable than a standard gaming mouse, and great price, too. I use the palm rest but still competitive at FPS. It just takes practice. Wish there were more vertical gaming mice available.
Yes it's the best
I have the logitech lift and love it. Nice that they've also produced a left-handed version too.
Yeah, they feel great. Just have to make sure your hand is not too big for it, though 🤔
The video even shows a picture of the lefty Lift @ 252s :)
(I am one of the rare folks who uses a mouse left handed, and am a fan of the Lift)
@@DygmaLab What would you consider to be "too big", though?
I have it for both left and right hands. A dual yielded here. :)
@@CosmeBenito The Mouse is designed for people with hands < 19cm or 7.5 inches
I have been using vertical mice for about 3 years now and while the Logitech Vertical made the pain in my arms a lot worse, I have found relief in the Evoluent D/4. It is true that the Evoluent are a bit flimsy and the design very retro they are extremely comfortable to use!
Dygma Raise + Evoluent D/4 + Ergotherapy = Being able to work/game again without pain ❤
Cool! Glad to hear you found your comfortable mix 🥰
Once we release our mouse, the idea is to replace that Evoluent of yours 😏
@@DygmaLab can't wait!!
@@DygmaLab same setup... also can't wait 🙂
Whats the difference between the Evoluent D and Evoluent 4? even the C. They dont talk about them
I've been using the big wired DELUX for a couple years and I love it. It's super comfortable even in my medium size hands, I am just as competitive at FPS, and it works fine at low sensitivities too. It's not as silly as they make it look in this video. Best of all, no wrist pain.
We're happy that you like it. Luis is a bit over the top sometimes. He does the same with our own products, the smallest of things can be a dealbreaker for him 😅
@@DygmaLab Thanks for the review though. Vertical mice are often overlooked but for any gamer with carpal tunnel they're a lifesaver.
Same here. I have the J-TECH version with slightly different buttons. It's by far the most comfortable vertical I've tried but it is cheap. I really wish someone would make a higher quality one in the same style so I don't have to buy a new one every year.
Thank you! And great background music ☺️
Thank you for commenting! We are glad you liked it ❤️
I have small hands and I have the MX vertical from Logitech. I've been using that mouse for the last three years and it's pretty comfortable, you don't have to have large hands to be able to use it. The vertical mouse and split keyboard is what stopped my arm and hand from hurting.
Good to know, thank you for sharing this! ❤️
same here@@DygmaLab
I have been using Evoluent mouses for 10+ years. Love them. I have tried many over the years and it's the only thus far that prevent pain in my wrist.
Nice! Thank you for sharing this information! 🙇
I did that with the Contour Mouse many years ago (seriously like 2007). Medium seemed too small; traded it for Large, which was too big (and too big was worse).
me too!
1:28 love the portal gun. Ever hear of a vert ergonomic mouse mmorpg mouse (12+ button mouse) ?
We should try that one on the next video 💪
@@DygmaLab I was asking as I haven't seen any. Let me know if you have. ty.
Y'all were acting pretty goofy at first, but y'all came together and did the absolute best product breakdown review for anything I have ever watched. Bravo!
Thanks! A little bit of goofiness is never bad 😜
20:25 I use this one since well over a year now and I don't see any downside when it comes to gaming. I like that you grip it more like a joystick, compared to all the flatter ones. The only big issue I have is that the rubber thingies on the bottom started to peel off and there seems to be no perfect replacement rubber online
Have you tried contacting the manufacturer? They could supply with that spare part.
Could you please add a section to your video where you click on the mouse with the voice meter? It is crucial to me to know how those mouses sounds (I am looking for a silent click).
We'll take that into consideration for the next video; we can't add stuff to already published videos 😅
I am a user of Evoluent. Besides the shape, I find having 3 fully customable finger buttons to be a deal breaker. It makes so much more sense to have a dedicated button for double clicking - otherwise the index finger is disproportionately overloaded, doing all the clicks and double clicks
That's a nice point, thank you for sharing it with us. What about the quality of the materials, do you agree that they are not super good ones? 🤔
@@DygmaLab I would not complain about the materials. The mouse has worked for 3 years / 60 hours per week in office applications and still looks like new. Nothing is wobbly or producing extra noise when squeezing either.
Design-wise, I would appreciate softer switches, but that is a personal preference I believe.
What I do not like is that I cannot use the mouse properly, when the hand is relaxed - the pinky keeps rubbing against the table. To prevent that I would prefer a much larger wing. I had to craft my own attachment out of cardboard to compensate for a small wing
Which one???
A 'deal breaker' means you don't like it 🤨
can we get a video on trackballs? I know that they're a niche category of mice - but are definitely an ergonomic option (especially the Logitech MX Ergo Plus)
That would be awesome, I passed the idea to the team already 😊
Now that mouse components have been miniaturized, I think there might be a better solution than a vertical mouse: A pen-mouse which remains standing in place when you release it. I hacked together a prototype last week, and so far it's the most natural and ergonomic input device I've ever used.
Sounds promising! Something like a Wacom drawing pen or something like that? 🤔
Show us !
You need to share that with us! :D
Bro share it
bro didn't share it 😔
I have the Trust GXT 144 Gaming REXX mouse and I realised aster having this mouse for 3 years that I have the habit of clawing my mouse...so since my scroll wheel makes pages jumps up and down (I'm going to try to open it and clean it) I'm also looking at different vertical mice.
Let us know what you end up getting and how it feels!
I've owned the Anker for a while now and for someone who uses palm grip it's amazing!
The thumb ball tucks right into that curve so comfortably.
Thanks for sharing!!
I have the Evoluent, I started with medium and thought it felt a bit too small for my hand. So i swapped for a large... now it's too big! I feel like goldilocks
I'm really excited to figure out why there's so many vertical mice lying around in the Dygma office... :D
They started appearing out of nowhere... 🐭
We actually wanted to make this video for all of you and it is also part of a resear... Oh, I can't say that yet? Sorry... 🤐
Which one?
@@JjHd-hv5de 4
I'd get a Dygma Vertical Ergo in a heartbeat
I think the Anker AK-UBA (the concave one at 25:18) is popular because the irregular shape means it's easier to use in a claw grip. I hold my mouse with my fingertips and perform most of the motion with my fingers, a little bit with my wrist, and virtually none with my elbow or shoulder. I tried a wireless version of the Delux M618 Plus (19:26) and, as you pointed out, it leans hard into palming the mouse and using your entire arm to move it. I hated it and quickly returned it. The Anker's concave design, on the other hand, looks like it would be more claw-grip friendly, as my palm wouldn't be blocking it and I'd be able to rely on my fingers to steer it.
Also, do you guys have any plans to expand into ergonomic mouse territory? I'm interested in getting a vertical mouse, but I'm not willing to drop my Logitech G604 because I love the customizable thumb buttons (and onboard memory) and no vertical mouse has those features. Seems like an untapped market if you ask me.
Oh yeah, we want to join the party!
We are currently working on a mystery device that will fight with the current available vertical mouse in the market 😏
@@DygmaLab ...I'm intrigued.
But like I said, if it doesn't have the programmable thumb buttons (or a suitable replacement), I'm probably not going to buy it.
I think you will be pleased 🤐
@@DygmaLab You had my curiosity. Now you have my attention.
One thing I've always wanted is to have some buttons on the right side of the mouse which are never used. I thought that when using the xbox, on an xbox the thumbs are overused, but on a mouse, the middle, ring and pinkie fingers are underused. I could see 3 normal buttons for the pointer to ringer finger would be great will the scroll mouse somewhere in the middle. But I think for the sake of the scroll mouse, it gets in the way to be used as a third middle button. But going crazy, I don't see why you couldn't have 4 buttons for all the fingers except the thumb. And then having multiple buttons on the thumb like the razer. Another idea that you could implement is that it's super important try try all of this out, so maybe you can send people, or for like 15$ people cab purchase 5 different shells to see what each size mouse feels like to your hand. I would pay for that to feel the size and the clicks of the mouse and when I'm ready then I know exactly what size mice you offer to buy. I really wish there were more buttons in better places like I mentioned and that the mice were customized better with my hand. I got the large Anker mouse, and I didn't realize it but it is far too large for my hand and although I thought the slant would help, the largeness requires more pressure to push and negates that advantage. So yea, i would invest in an awesome mouse. I really like the exchangeable buttons layout here on the razer, however, it doesn't implement the buttons idea on the top or right like I mentioned: www.amazon.com/Razer-Naga-Wireless-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B08D27XXRY/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2F92N7JZ6FB4R&keywords=wireless+mouse+multiple+side+buttons&qid=1703832203&s=electronics&sprefix=wireless+mouse+multiple+side+button%2Celectronics%2C130&sr=1-3
The amount of buttons to place on a mouse is a bit delicate. On one hand, more buttons = more possibilities and functions. However, they are also more confusing for the user.
The exact amount depens more on the design of the mouse, and where is comfortable to place how many buttons. It's better to have 4 comfortable buttons than 6 uncomfortable ones, because in the end, 2 end up unused. Developing fewer buttons but a better software is probably the best way to go.
We completely agree that the mouse should have better sizing, and even modularity to adapt to the size of the hand, that should be a must at this point. Hopefully we can do something in the future to fix it 😊
That would be great! @@DygmaLab
What bugs me about this kind of mouse is that if you use a high cursor speed, then the tiny movement of the mouse that occurs when you click can sometimes make you miss what you're trying to click on.
Totally makes sense, the switches would have to be fine-tuned to consider that 🤔
Due to some shoulder issues recently got a trackball mouse. After a short adaptation period I very much enjoy it! My shoulder gets some rest from mousing and as an added bonus the ball acts as a fidget toy during downtime.
So glad to hear!
You guys are awesome. Just came across your channel and I love your passion :) keep it up and great vid!!
Thank you, we're glad you liked it! ❤️
Just seeing this now after getting a pale grey Logitech Lift and you guys nailed it on the head. This is the best vertical (or even horizontal mouse) I've had.
Nice! I have a Lift too and even though my hands are "too big" according to the it works just fine.
Super comfortable and definitely one of the best when we consider build quality and materials used 😻
I can tell you never had a good horizontal mouse. Lift build quality and components are average at best.
@@theonlyD What vertical mouse do you use and what’s the reason why you like it? And have you tried multiple vertical mouse’s?
@@ulquiorra7446 I have a Zelotes C-18 and I don't like it and don't use it. Currently I'm using a VXE Dragonfly R1 which is superior in any aspect to any vertical mice in the market. Verical mice are a stupid fad.
Awesome hearing someone who knows what they are talking about. Loved to her the designer / engineer point of view
Thank you! We will have more videos with Luis in the future 🥰
I actually love the J-tech pink mouse, honestly imo the glossy is sometimes better if you want more grip with your hand, i used it for few years & still going strong, can't complain
Dominique loves it too 😊
Unfortunately I couldn't find a wireless version of the Zelotes C-18. I actually like the idea of a joystick on top with customizable input for gaming, but wired-only is a dealbreaker for me. I've been claw-gripping the Logitech MX Vertical as my daily work/gaming mouse for about 9 months and agree with their assessments - I have larger hands and don't have a problem with the grip, but having to slide my thumb up to use the side buttons is a little irritating because it usually causes the mouse to slide slightly forward and right. I also had the same ulnar pain Luis mentioned, which was alleviated by adding a wrist cushion to my setup. Hopefully someday soon we'll get a high-quality, wireless, gaming-oriented vertical mouse...perhaps from Dygma??
Thank you! And yes, the world needs a proper high-quality, wireless, gaming-oriented vertical mouse 😊
I don't know where this numbers come from, but I know a lot left handed people and all of them use mouse with left hand. Maybe there are not many options with ergonomic mouses for lefties on the market, so that's why some of them decides to use right hand?
The numbers came from a survey we did when we were creating the Raise. It could be that this is enforced by the market not making good mice for lefties, though 🤔
Thanks for taking the time to make this video. I decided on the J-Tech Digital V638. It arrived today and I instantly adapted to it. No learning curve!!
Thank you for watching and for the positive comment 😊
Great to hear you found one that works for you so soon!
I myself did a pretty extensive personal review of a bunch of mice featured in this video. Unfortunately none of them qualified as true vert gaming mouse. The closest were the Trust Gaming GXT 144 and the Zelotes C-18.
The Trust doesn't support n-key, multiple buttons pressed at once.
The Zelotes C-18 has very poor teflon pads, they feel sandy and ruined my mousepad. Yes I took off the protective film. The buttons were failing and double-clicking after only a week of use.
If anyone could suggest a right hand vert gaming mouse with at least 500hz polling rate, customizable software control panel and good construction, please let me know!
That's a tall order to ask 😅
Most manufacturers forcus the vertical designs for productivity, and those models don't need that level of specs.
For sure, in the future it will be possible; for now, we have not found something of that kind, let us know if yo find one 😉
@DygmaLab Thanks for the explanation and advice.
I've decided to get a logi superlight and mod it into a vert with sugru. the mainboard and button subboards are separate. I'll report back with my results.
Thanks again for all the cool project demos. It's super inspiring!
Great review, congrats. I'm from Brazil and I've had a MX vertical for 6 years. I opened it for the first time this week, the left button was working badly. I was surprised by the size of the battery, I expected it to be bigger because it is excellent, the battery lasts around 3 to 4 months in my usage. I work with electrical engineer, with CAD design software, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. The buttons are excellent for adjusting shortcuts, the top one I use as “Enter”, the side ones as “esc” and “delete” for more agility. As said in the video, it fits very well in my hands, which are large, but I also recommend it for those with smaller hands, the other Logitech model has no comparison, the MX vertical has a durable and well-adherent rubber pad, its body is very resistant and it is a battery and not a battery. I watched the video looking for another option but probably when it can't hold up anymore, I'll buy another one.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts about the MX Vertical! 💪
I have the Logitech MX and really like it, but not ideal. I would have given the Lift a shot, but since there is no optional wire to plug in directly to the computer, that means having to buy batteries.
Yeah, needed to buy batteries is not ideal 🔋
I have been using several vertical mice but with time, eventually my wrist will start hurting again and would always look for a higher angle every single time. I think I'll try the Evoluent ones next because of the steep angle. I really wish they invested more on the materials and the build because it's such a let down.
In addition to the characteristics mentioned in the video, it is also very important what is needed in each specific case. Let's hope that the Evoluent fits what you are looking for! Let us know how it goes! 😍
@@DygmaLab Unfortunately they don't sell to my country XD
Not even on Amazon? 😢
@@DygmaLab I'll try. But the markup to the price is big XD
Oops sorry to hear that. Maybe you can search another option available in your country and with the same specifications as the Evoluent mouse 🤔
Great video. I have to mention... that is not what OEM means, it kind of means the opposite of what you're describing. It's an abbreviation for Original Equipment Manufacturer. The best example I can think of is if you have an iPhone and are using the cable that shipped with the phone, that's the OEM cable. If you bought a cable from a random company on Amazon (whose name is probably a series of meaningless letters) it's a non-OEM cable.
I currently have the shiny Evoluent mouse because I have massive hands and was looking for a comparison of their 3 models to see if I wanted to change for another model. You're right, the finish is pretty crappy, and after a while the chrome gets rubbed off and looks even worse. For me, the 3rd button is essential because I do 3D modeling and it's nice to have to navigate in 3D space, pressing in a scroll wheel for a middle mouse button pretty much sucks.
The point we're trying to make here is that there are OEM mice, where the model is identical and comes from the same factory, but different brands purchase it and modify certain details or elements in the firmware to personalize it. However, the underlying model remains the same 😊
Yeah that comes across, but OEM isn't what they would be called. I'd think something like "generic" would be a better word to use. @@DygmaLab
Yep, they should've called it white-label.
I have been using the Evoluent VerticalMouse 4 for years as a work mouse (I won't game on a vertical mouse). I have just bought the Logitech MX Vertical as I wanted to go wireless. I debated on going with the Lift b/c it's smaller and less expensive, but the dealbreaker was the Lift requires a AAA battery while the Vertical has a rechargeable battery. I'll take the latter any day. If I feel the Vertical is too big for me, then I may return and swap. Having said, that, wince I've been using the Evoluent, which is fairly big, for years. I hopefully won't have an issue.
Hope the Vertical works out for you! 🐭
This is the first video of yours that I have seen, and you won me over from the start with the great fairy background music placed oh so perfectly there.
Glad to see you enjoyed it, hope it helped 😊
Let us know if you have further questions!
I have a medium sized hand (based on Logitech sizing guide) and a palm grip. I've been using the Anker vertical mouse for a couple of years now. It's been okay. Battery life is pretty terrible. I have to replace the 2AA batteries every few months. And the scroll wheel is starting to wear out I suppose because it's very glitchy now, especially if you just want "one click" in either direction. It'll scroll down one then scroll back up quite frequently. Precise scrolling just isn't possible. I'm eyeing the Logitech Lift now. I didn't even know it existed until today and the price point of the MX Vertical kept me away from that in the past.
Oh yeah, the Lift is a bit cheaper than the MX Vertical and it should suit your medium hands just fine.
We are also working on a solution ourselves but it's not coming in the near future unfortunately 🤐
This is a good watch! Though I feel like the moral of the story here is that there isn't really any "outstanding" ergonomic mice on the market. Each and every one of these have a compromise somewhere along the way, whether it be in the features, form, or quality. Then on top of that, the quality-to-cost ratio is generally just not very good, where it feels like you're paying a premium just for the shape while the rest of the mouse features are second-rate.
There is one mouse in particular I've had a keen interest in called the "Penguin Mouse" that I had the opportunity to test some time back. It takes a pretty unique take on the ergonomic mouse by changing the grip to what is essentially a gun grip! The primary mouse buttons are situated like gun triggers with the middle scroll wheel nested between them and there's a wide palm rest for the hand to rest on. It basically takes the more "joystick" like mouse design from the few you've tested in this video, but takes the concept a full step further.
Conceptually it's a super interesting mouse and I found it exceptionally comfortable to hold and use but like many options on this list, you pay a premium for the shape alone while everything else like the sensor, mouse buttons, and scroll wheel are just really subpar. But the _concept_ of the mouse I personally feel is very much worth exploring for the potential!
If you're interested in looking at it yourself, here's a video about it! If you end up trying it out, I'd be curious what your thoughts are on it. th-cam.com/video/_UXVb25JY8E/w-d-xo.html
Thanks again for this video! Just like this channel in general, this is incredibly helpful in filling in an otherwise pretty empty knowledge base.
I’ve been using a Penguin mouse lately, and yeah, the build quality and features aren’t great
But the form is interesting. For a while I was holding it almost like a gear shift.
It’s stable enough to use that way with your hand on top of the “joystick”. Not how it’s intended, but the buttons stretch reachable so it worked. And that put my hand right at the height to go over to the tented Raise. Keeping my elbow straight.
Interesting possibilities
Thank you for sharing this! It's like you said, the current market doesn't have an obvious model that we would recommend to everyone because it really depends on what you want 😢
Do you want something that looks good? Wireless? Comfortable and silent clicks? None of them has all of this.
The idea is that we can fill that gap with our mystery device, a perfect solution for all those "problems" 😏
I've heard before about the Penguin but haven't tried that. I'll forward to the team to check if we can grab one to check.
Got an MX vertical for the ergonomics (didn't realise there were so many other options) and while I truly enjoy it, the greatest feature I've found is the software it comes with "logi+ options".
Working on mac and PC at same time for work, using the software, you can hover on the edge of the screen and the mouse will transfer to the other OS computer. (You won't have to click the preset button to switch between PC's anymore, thus saving precious tie if you are wanting to be efficient at work.
Thats not all, this phenomenal software also allows you to copy and paste between OS (before I had to use a local server, or thumb drive to transfer contents).
Phenomenal time saving technology for me, with added bonus of ergonomics
Thanks a lot for the detailed review, and very happy to hear it has been helping you!
Excellent review! And of course the Logitech Lift also comes in Pink too ;) (and white..)
True, we forgot to mention that! 😆
The problem I see with the lift is that it doesn't have a USB C connector. I like using my mouse wired. I have a MX Vertical, and I was so confortable with it, that I bought a second one so that I can have one for work and other for home. The problem is that they both started having problems with the main keys at the same time 2 years efter the purchase (coinciding with the end of the warranty), so I'm not sure if I want to risk to buy another one, but there doesn't seem to be a better alternative.
It's so hard to find a good mouse! I'm sorry that you've had issues with it 🙏
@@DygmaLab I finally bought another one but with a 2 year extended warranty. So that amounts to a total of 5 years.
👏 Smart! 💪
The HP 920 Ergonomic Vertical Mouse Wireless looks to have come out after your video. It is really good. The magnetically attaching wrist pad is large, so your hand just rests unless you are actively moving the mouse or clicking. No lifting of the hands at all to use it and no rubbing on the table. It is a louder click that is snappy like any typical non-soft click mouse.
We'll take a look 😊
I've been using the Zelotes C-18 for about 3 years now. In terms of shape it's pretty comfortable. No problem with the clicks, the DPI is good. I use it for gaming and don't have any problems with the sensor. My main gripe is that I've had 2 of these mice and the scroll wheel has broken on both fairly quickly. It will still scroll sometimes but not at a consistent rate, sometimes scrolling up instead of down. I'm not going to buy another one unless they fix that issue, switching to the Logitech Lift tomorrow.
Thanks for sharing your experience! 😍
Deluxe seeker M618XSD is my favorite mouse so far. It has good poling rate up to 1000hz, thumb wheel, li-ion battery, can work by wire, bt and 2.4Ghz, and even backlight. Every button can be remapped, I remapped rhumb wheel to vertical one which is extremely useful)
Before this one I had Trust voxx, it has better ergonomics but solwer sensor and does not have thumb wheel)
The Deluxe seeker M618XSD is a good option! We'll add it to the next video about mouse 🙌
Thank you so much for your comment!
I've been fed up with regular mouse shapes for the past few months now but I just couldn't find anyone mentioning polling rates when talking about vertical mice. As gaming is the mouses main purpose for me, a good sensor is the only criteria it needs to meet. You're comment hopefully just ended my search so thanks again!
@@scruffex3736 Not sure whether vertical mouse is good choice for gaming, at least ones that require fast and accurate movement. They usually heavier and you use other, probably untrained muscles to drag it which makes it feel clumsy. But there is a possibility that it`s just my experience and your will be different)
So... is this a new channel?? It is the only explanation I can find on why they don't have more subscribers and viewers. That was a really nice video!!
Wow! Thank you 😍🫶
Very helpful review, you guys are also funny and it made me happy :D
We are so glad it helped you! Thank you for your words!
If you design a better mouse than the lift... I would probably buy it.
Accuracy and stability are key.
Also, if you just prevent putting your wrist flat to the desk somehow, it would be a big deal
... so you don't pinch the vains to the desk.
You might not have to go completely vertical.
... also try out the ms sculpt.
The lift is also no grippy enough... it is sometimes hard to "lift" it (claw grip).
I think somekind of 15-20* angle might be enough.
That's exactly the buttons we want to press 😜
@@DygmaLab I've got to say... actually after a few days of getting used to
... the lift feels prety comfortable
... I've got fairly big medium hands (almost 19cm).
I do notice an increased resitance of sliding because of more friction at the bottom in comparison with the logitech m720.
Also I use a simple mousepad to dampen the pressure of the wristknuckle.
I sometimes switch with a gel-pad
... but havn't decided yet if this is better or not... because of more contact of the wrist sinking into the gel.
Cool, sounds very good! 🥰
can anyone tell me about where the weight of their hand sits with a vertical mouse? on my atnadard mouse a lot of weight rests right on the outer heel of my palm, very painful, and I don't want the weight there.
Ideally, the mouse should have a place to rest your hand on it, or the shape should distribute the weight properly. If you rest it like you describe it, it's painful.
How about the Logitech MX Master 3S?
That one is not considered Vertical 😉
It's a great mouse, though.
I have a small/medium hand and I´m using a logitel lift for a few days now. But I have from first day that same unconfortable feeling in that bone of my hand, that you had with the CLS E-VE mouse !? In my work there is a evoluent vertikal 4 wich feels much more confortable.
is there a vertical mouse that has a polling rate of more than 200? i think all of these have the same sensor which caps at 100-150hz refresh rate
We don't know all the mice of the market but you can check this list to find the sensor you are looking for 😊 sensor.fyi/sensors/ . The polling rate is not just the sensor but also the firmware and the communication protocol
@@DygmaLab great. thank you
Will you guys be designing your own lineup of mouse? I feel like you really think about all the factors that important.....a new production idea????
The idea has always been to launch a complete setup, but for the time being, we're focusing on the launch of the Raise 2, after that, time will tell 😉
Lol that ending. Great video like always very informative 😊
Thank you 😁
We always want to make the videos informative but also fun.
This is one of the best videos on that topic that I've seen! Very unexpected from a keyboard manufacturer.
Wow, thanks, we are really honored!
We work hard to make an informative, yet fun video to watch ❤️
put volume on the thumb buttons, or forward back, it's SO much better than not using it
The thing is that reaching for those buttons sometimes makes your mouse move or force you to change your grip, which is not ideal...
I love louis' attention to detail! I want him to do other reviews
Oh yeah, Luis gives that same love to all products Dygma produces so you can always expect good quality and attention to detail ❤️
Really good and informative video. I think they 2 host conversational style is great; it has a natural and welcoming feel that I prefer over the usual style of one person talking at the camera. Noticing about halfway through that the subtle BGM is a FF7 remix was also a nice touch. Didn't notice the music at first, but then said "Heeeeeey! I know that!" Keep up the good work, first video I've seen from this channel but it's an instant subscribe for me!
Thank you for the comment! From time to time we also pop some Zelda tunes and so on... gotta love the old games soundtracks 😻
LOL, actually, the music grated on my nerves. I do appreciate the in depth comparison, though.
O.O is Dygma labs considering making a vertical mouse? I haven't converted to vertical mice because I use the horizontal scroll wheel on my MX Master 3 too often, but it would be very interesting to watch how you might design one... But first I need to buy a Defy!
Oh, yeah! We are designing a mystery device to soothe this need for a pointing device that's ergonomic and awesome 🤐
I wish someone would make a modern version of the evoluent. I've been using their Bluetooth Mac version for over a decade, but looking for something new. The materials on the Mac Bluetooth version are even more plasticky and glossy than the others and I hate the feel. I got the white version and have to clean it off every week as it's a dirt/oil magnet. Would love a soft rubbery version. Even though it feels cheap it has lasted over 10 years of heavy continuous use so can't complain too much. Main reason for looking is that the index button has finally worn out and it does 2x-7x clicks with each click. I wish I could buy a vertical mouse with premium materials, soft mouse clicks and modern sensor that has the form factor of the evoluent. I use all the programmable buttons every day and find them very conveniently placed and wish it actually had more buttons available. I have thought about buying a new evoluent, replacing the sensor (there's a guide on how to hack it) and plastidipping the glossy parts, that's how desperate I am as there are no other good options.
Thank you for sharing your experience with the Evoluent mouse! These insights are important as we continue to search for the best ergonomic setup ✨
i agree with you 100%. I simp for the evouluent mouse design, especially the angle. But their external build quality make me question their pricing…
I returned the Logitech MX vertical and kept the Logitech Lift, which I like a lot
Cool! Was the MX vertical too big for your hands? Why did you change for the Lift? 🤔
Thanks for this video! Kinda leaning on getting a vertical mouse for work.
Nice, which one are you considering getting? 🤔
I just bought Evoluent D but it sucks at the sensor. I work in CAD design, Revit. Do you have any suggestions for large hands like me?
If the sensor is important, I'd go with the MX vertical. It's not as comfy as the Evoluent shape, but more than good enough for big hands.
theres just alot of negative comments regarding logitech mouse especially the left click starts double clicking after about 6 months of use. Do you face the same issue to date?
We haven't had that issue but we only have like 2 of each 😅
They are used daily though 😀
@@DygmaLab oh! thank you for responding!
This is perfect timing! my Logitech Lyft just started dying, so I am looking for a replacement. Time to see if there is anything better!
Nice! Did you like the Lyft, by the way? 🤔
@DygmaLab Yeah it was amazing! I got it last June. It was my first venture into the vertical mouse world.
I was expecting to need a few weeks to get used to it and wasn't expecting to use it for gaming at all, but about an hour in and I absolutely loved it, and a few days later I was using it for everything, including gaming!
Now normal mice feel weird and awkward to use. lol
It's so comfortable and natural to use! My only complaint is that it doesn't have any RGB, but that's a very minor gripe. 🙂
I've had multiple people try it for a few minutes because they had never seen anything like it before, and they all agree how comfortable it is.
The left mouse button started dying about a week ago, which makes it really hard to do things sometimes, but I think that's because when I was playing games I may have pressed way too hard a few times😅.
That's awesome! What is the size of your hand from the bottom of your palm up until the highest finger? Maybe you could also chec with Logi if they have warranty to revive that Lift. I've heard they have pretty good warranty standards 😊
@@DygmaLab My hand is about 6in, or 152mm from the bottom of my palm to the tip of my middle finder. I'd say I have a small/medium hand. contacting Logi actually a good idea. It can't hurt, and worst case scenario, I'll just buy another one since it seems I stumbled upon the best one (for now) on my first try.
Hopefully another Lyft can last me until a better vertical mouse comes around😉
Woo! Hopefully that "No Particular Reason" is something I've been asking for since I got my Raise back when it was first announced. I can only imagine how good an ergo mouse from Dygma can be. That said, I bought a cheap Anker awhile ago, it's okay, but ultimately there just wasn't enough useful features like my gaming mouse. So if you are working on a new future product I'd love to have several buttons in the groove that the thumb rests in for macros and other nice features for gaming and work. I know the Raise and Defy have so many wonderful key combos that make life easier, but having some built into the mouse would be incredible as well.
Thanks for reading. Can't wait for the Defy to finally be in my hands. Good luck with everything!
EDIT: Also wanted to add that your attention to detail and analysis of what's wrong with current products is wonderful.
Thank you, Dane!
You know us, we want to make something excellent and that's going to impact the whole market, that's why we're taking extra care to make it right 💪
Also, you totally missed the posturite Penguin ambidextrous mouse, which has been working for me for many many years now. They have different sizes and it’s got to be the most vertical mouse of them all.
Yes, we couldn't review them all. Maybe next year we'll do another one!
I have Delux m618 Plus at office after one week of using I took of the palm rest and it works for me. In my case it's realy good and I'm satisfied.
Sometimes I'm using Delux m618xsd also without palm rest and it's even little bit more comfortable.
what is the song at 1:25?
The background Music is Lo-Fi Zelda 😊
First of, whoever picked the lofi final fantasy mix for the background music needs a raise.
I'm a medium hands claw grip, and I've used the anker and am now with the zelotes c-18, the scroll wheel is starting to go after one year of daily 12 hour use so I'll be getting something new soon. One thing that I want to add is that the "joystick" on top of it is a complete gimmick and is not a joystick at all, its a clickable d-pad at best, it is at an angle and on top of the mouse making so that you are either using that or using the mouse so I would buy the cheaper non "joystick" version.
Regarding the use of buttons, I use them very often for the backwards/fowards commands in the browser, but not a lot in gamming as I used to do with horizontal mice. I think that something I would like to see is a mouse with one button on top and one on the bottom that is intended to be used with the knuckle of the thumb by sliding it on the mouse's surface. There could be space for more buttons on the click side of the mouse especially for use with pinky or ring finger.
On a separate note, some brands (delux does this) are starting to have hadn size and grip reccomendations with their mice.
Great video and I'll be waiting for the Dygma vertical claw and vertical palm mice
🎶 We're glad you liked the music choice. We're always exploring new ideas and innovations. Stay tuned for more exciting developments! 😊👍
I tried to buy an identical version of this joystick mouse with different branding and the scroll wheel arrived broken. If you are (or anyone is) thinking of trying a different brand or wondering if you mashed it in any way. It's not you. The wheel is defective. We need fully redesigned internals built in this form factor.
My problem with mice is that I'm set on having one with 6+ side buttons and use palm, which makes it difficult to find any. I'm currently using a Razer Naga Trinity with 7 side buttons, however it is not the most comfortable with palming, because the side buttons are too close to the wrist. And now find a vertical mouse with that.
I totally understand, mice with extra buttons are tough to find. My brother has a G600 from Logitech and really loves it, they are very similar, but maybe it works better for you?
You can check their shape here at this link: t.ly/EccO
@@DygmaLab Thanks for the reply; cool website. Shape is basically the same. Also too many buttons for me. I hope that you guys will do something with more buttons, maybe with hot swappable sides so you can choose. Also as y'all don't seem to shy away from crazier ideas: how about more locations for buttons (next to right or left click, ring finger)?
These videos are great, can't believe I haven't heard about you guys before
Thank you! It's always awesome to have new Dygmates 🙌
interesting content... on the edge of pre-ordering your new keyboard, but I'd love to hear/see what your ideas are for using the popo-pins ?
We are exploring different options, including extra keys and a trackball module 😊
Have the Logitech MX and I just hate how it is impossible to clean and their software is annoying as hell. Hard to know what your actual conclusions are with how you did this video. Very confusing.
The main conclusion is that there's no conclusion: there's no vertical mouse that's perfect for everybody. You need to draw your own conclusion based on the information we provided.
Great video, thanks! In the Anker section of the video you talk about pain at the pisiform (part of the hand that touches the desk), and I have the exact same problem with it. You say that you eliminated the problem by going back to a non-vertical mouse, but have you used vertical mice since? I am wondering which vertical mouse I should choose that wouldn't have this problem that I have with Anker. Should I choose a bigger mouse like MX Vertical so my hand doesn't slide on the desk as much, or would literally any mouse eliminate this issue as long as it's not Anker? Thanks!
Some vertical mice have a place to rest your hand and slide it with the mouse without sliding it along the table. You can also try a bigger mouse to avoid resting your wrist on the table at all.
Hello. Can you please share what sensor the DeLux MV6 uses? Is that good for gaming?
By gaming I mean actual true gaming and not primarily focusing on CSGO, COD, Valorant and other bulls#it
It's the PAW3212 and it's not specially good for gaming 😅
Great video, thank you! I had the Anker it was too big for me, and the scroller is awful. Going to try the lift after this video!
Oh yeah, it should be much better in build quality and size 🤔
My biggest complaint for the Evoluent 4: when holding down the left mouse button then the mouse wheel can not be moved anymore.
Oh, that's a big issue! Sorry to hear about this. We'll have that in mind in our design 😏
That Anker's design is terrible for the thumb! I've used it for some time. And I discovered that i'm trying to support the mouse with my thumb, unconsciously. That made my thumb hurt so much that I've given up on that mouse in 3 weeks max. Switched to microsoft sculpt mouse.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
We had a similar feeling, it forces the thumb inside too much to keep the mouse stable. Glad to know you were able to find a model that worked for you!
Are they playing the song of storms from ocarina of time in the background?
You have a good ear my friend. It's LoFi Zelda music yes 😊
this man has a reviewing talent , I really loved the way he explains every thing about every model and viewing his opinion in a very objective way ,my admire and respect to this review ,I didn't see any professional review like this for a long time. 👍
Thank you! He is our CEO, Luis Sevilla 😊
Love the studio background :) Can I ask where you bought that/product info? Would love that for our office...
Yeah they're really nice! Those are 3D panels from Amazon www.amazon.es/Paneles-paneles-unidades-aspecto-diamante/dp/B0C2TYYGLZ/ref=s[…]es+3d,aps,96&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1
I know I am digging up a year old video...
But you guys making a vertical mouse too?
Who knows? There's a mystery device coming... just saying 🙈
Love the Zelda Remix background music =)
Great review btw!
One day we'll get that Linkle game, one day...
That would be awesome, Linkle is great! 🥰
That's our nice touch, glad you liked you 😊
Thank you very much for your presentation, it helped a lot and my new mouse solved my shoulder pain completly.
Thank to you for your words!
Really glad to hear you've improved, now keep up the halthy habits and don't let the pain come back! 💪
I guess your website is not meant to be used on mobile because the screen was bouncing all over the place and I couldn't control it. Try to scroll down, it bounces back up
It should run smoothly, which browser were you using on the mobile? Was it Android or iOS? 🤔
Gotta admit, although it is a very long video review it was very entertaining to watch :)
Glad you enjoyed it! We have many more to come! 😊
Thank you! This was such a well detailed and helpful video.
Glad it was helpful!
FYI their are numerous right handed users that use the mouse in their left hands. Mainly people that work with numbers like accountants. They use the mouse with their left hand and the number pad with their right hand to enter numbers. not sure if your surveys would have picked up people like this
We probably didn't pick many of those. Thank you for letting us know about this too 🙇
What about trackball mice? 👀
Oh, yeah! We should make a video about those too. We have many of them in the office for "no apparent reason".
I'll share this idea with the team 😜
I have too many keyboards. If you make mice, I’d love to buy one or more. I am right handed but I use mice on my left hand to ease the burden on my right hand.
Cool! Normally vertical mouse are not ambidextrous though.
We're working on a mystery device, but we are not creating a left-hand version. We've explained that it would be harder to produce that as we would have to meet the minimum order quantities and all that 😢
@@DygmaLab Thank you for the response. That is correct I've only tried found one southpaw vertical mouse. I typical use a trackball on my left. I would love to see what the mystery product is! I have enjoyed supported your company and loved my original dygma. Thanks!
Where is Kensington Pro Fit Ergo Vertical Wireless Mouse?
Ah, the elusive Kensington Pro Fit Ergo Vertical Wireless Mouse! It's probably hiding behind your monitor, plotting its next ergonomic adventure 🐭🐾😄
This was such a nice concise review, but the audio was hard to hear for me, not sure if anyone else encountered that. At times the movement of the mouse was louder than his voice.
You're right. We didn't use a desk mat and the mice were loud when hitting the table. We've bought a big mat for future videos 😊
No trackball mice in this review? Mx ergo w/trackball is not bad. Because it’s not vertical? I think the ultimate mouse would be a vertical trackball mouse. Do you know if any exist?
I think a vert.trackball mouse would be the best because it allows for the least wrist movement and the most comfortable “floating” use. “Floating” mouse-use is next-level, for those who have super-severe chronic repetitive stress injury In the wrists( like myself)
This was a review was about vertical mice, not trackballs. I think the Logitech MX Ergo trackball can tilt up to 20º if you want to check it out!
Great review, i laughed and got the informations i was looking for. Thanks !
Glad it was helpful and entertaining 🥰
I tried a few vertical mice and currently I'm using a MX Vertical and MX Ergo from time to time.
Nice! Do you find it difficult to switch from trackball to mouse? 🤔
@@DygmaLab For me, it only takes a minute or so to mentally switch and to not trying to move the whole trackball.
Would be interested in a video about the ergonomics of split keyboards in combination with a graphic tablet ! (for which i have found very little info)
Oh, that's a nice topic! Many of our users have those with their keyboards too! 😉
@@DygmaLab ☺️
very cute ending. thanks for the review
🤭😅 thanks for watching till the end
I have been using Delux M618 for more than 6 years. A cable/wired version. I am with my second mouse right now, the wheel on the old one broke a year ago. Six years of heavy use should justify this mouse's durability. The wheel has the ability to sweep left-right, you can click it for a click-drag maneuver. The grip and movement are conveniently acceptable. I only have one problem with it, in my case I cannot customize its auxiliary thumb-side buttons. Delux has many copies, with identical design but different independent brands. Although the different brands share its comfortable grip design but the clicking and cursor movement experience can be under Delux's quality. I use Macbook and I am doing a lot of photo editing. Vertical mouse has been very helpful in reducing my wrist strain. I tried other vertical mice but many of them are either too slim (I need some mass to hold) or not vertical enough, so far Delux M618 design fits my palm better.
Thank you very much for sharing your experience with us 😊
Also, great to hear you found a mouse that adapts to your hand, that's the complicated part. Like you point, and Luis mentions, the most important is being able to test a lot and find one that does not compromise the grip.
Glad to hear you're improving from those wrist pains!
Zelotes C-18 average sensor? It seems to be really good actually with 10kDPI. And no, there is no wireless option.
DPI is not everything that matters on a sensor, but we'll check that out. And thank you for the info on not having a wireless option.
where is the Delux Seeker M618XSD mouse?
The cat got to it before we could 😺