After upload, I had some circuit boards made for the circuits I described in this and another video, th-cam.com/video/fJOGHujoRN8/w-d-xo.html. If you are interested in one of those, please feel free to reach out to me using the channel email address.
Very clear explanation. I was about to hook up separate transformers for the braking sections in my new layout, but I’ll give these anti-parallel diodes a try. Thanks a lot! BR, Anders
Thank you for talking the time to explain the system. My first thoughts would be about the need for equal lengths of track around the track circle. Also the need for the different trains to take the same time in each block so a gradient climb may become an art. Cheers Graham
There is a video on blocks basics available on the channel, you don'y necessary need to have equal lengths of track, you need to ensure that all your blocks do not measure less that the distance required for them to stop. Your blocks can then be extended to have different lengths. Gradients are another story...
Hallo, schönes Video, als Kind hatte ich eine V200 die über jeden Signalhalt darüber geschossen ist. Andere Loks sind gleich am Anfang der Stoppstelle stehen geblieben, da hätte man den extra Gleisabschnitt zum Abbremsen gut gebrauchen können um die Bremsstrecken anzugleichen. Heute fahre ich die alten Loks alle digital, mit gemäßigten Geschwindigkeiten, da gibt es diese Problem nicht mehr. Schön erklärt, Gruß Kai
The way you switch your block signalling is not fail-safe. I would couple the "green" of the signal in the rear (Signal A) to the "Red" of the local signal (Signal B) on the same switch track, located ahead of Signal B. This way, a train will close the signal it has just passed, thus protecting its rear. At the same time, it clears the signal in the rear, so a train waiting there can proceed, but only as far as the next signal. Trains cannot proceed, until the block in front of them is cleared. With this system, there needs to be at least one block more than the number of trains, as there must always be a clear block for a train to move into, to keep the automation going. The slowest train is going to set the pace, as all the faster ones will have to wait, but the trains can never catch up to each other - unless you havea a visitor, then there is bound to be something that goes wrong. Also, it is possible to use the signal's catenary sockets to switch the braking section. Power is fed to the section via the diodes at all times, and a bypass is switched on when the signal is green. This makes sure that a train does not slow down, unless the signal is red. Of course, this only works, if your catenary is not powered, and all trains run off the centre rail.
Yep, you are correct for both block switching and signal catenray connectors. I had wired for movement and not for safety on this layout because I did not have a good balance between space and the amount of traffic I was trying to run, call it an experiment 🙂 I usually wire things as you suggest, see th-cam.com/video/fJOGHujoRN8/w-d-xo.html for the current layout or th-cam.com/video/dNgL195D4qw/w-d-xo.html for the one I am planning at the moment (the linked video is about this very topic). Thanks for sharing and spending some of your valuable time the channel today
I do think I have a suggestion to save a relay when making a braking section before a signal If you make the diode bridge fixed permanently to the middle rail then it would always brake when current couldn’t go around it, if you then used the switch in the signal for wich it brakes, that are made to control the overhead wire to make a bridge on the braking Sektion so that the current would flow past the bridge when the signal is green then the braking Sektion is off, when the signal is red the braking Sektion is on.
Hi, that could work too if you are not using the catenary. I left this out of the video for this reason to keep things simple. I think you'd need to double feed the section though, which might require more space. In the end, there is no right way to do this, just different ways :) Thanks for sharing your experience.
Fantastic video. I am starting to go through your video archives to get some more juicy stuff! I had a Z gauge setup as a teenager with active catenary. I just sold my collection last year (2021) as Z gauge is too small for my fat fingers. I am now 55 years old and wanting to tinker again with some trains with the main focus of having a working catenary. I thought about digital vs analog and I am going to start tinkering with analog again. I have bought some M track, a transformer, one locomotive (3039) and some catenary post and wire. Your mindset with your setup and how you describe functionality is exactly how I think and how I want to proceed. I think I will have a lot of questions for you! Wait a minute...he comes one: I want to setup a signal and breaking section as you have shown in this video. Can you let me know what Marklin catalog numbers I need (signal and special track sections) so I can start scouring ebay? Keep up the great work!
Hi, glad you find the videos useful. You could use semaphore signals 7039 or 7040 or the 7188 light signal. For the track sections, have a look at my little helpers video about contact and switching tracks, it contains the references and describes the behaviour of each type. There is a video in the 2021 layout playlist where I fit braking modules, it's called "braking modules for the block system". You might want to get a copy of a Märklin catalog from the 1980s and the marklin signal manual 0340 to make research easier (google for pdfs, you should get a few hits...). The good old 3039 should soon stop and go automatically :) thanks for the visit!
This seems to work only for freight trains and passenger trains without lights. If I was using passenger cars that get their lighting from a slider, this woukd not work, correct?
Hi Anders! Not too sure I get this... Wouldn't I just be extending the stopping section when the signal is red, without a braking effect, and be braking when the signal is green? Kind of the opposite effect?
Argh, you're right! Ok how about this then: feed diode reduced power to the yellow braking section. Also feed full track power to the yellow section, but through the signal catenary connectors. The catenary connectors conduct on green and are open on red, thereby leaving the yellow section on reduced power under red signal.
@Anders Pedersen Sure, that would work, provided you are not using the catenary ports for catenary, although one could also wire things in parallel if your catenary is on the same transformer as the track in this case. I left these out of the equation for this video to keep things simple, there are many ways to implement. Glad the video got your brain going :) When do we get to see your next temporary masterpiece?
Does a simple resistor work for braking? Perhaps loks are too different in current draw for a resistor to work well for all loks? How about just a single diode? That would chop off one half of the wave, halving the power? That's perhaps too much reduction?
I tried resistors, they work but they need to be quite beefy and can get a bit hot. I think they also delay the short circuit protection on the transformer which is not good. Halving the power is too much for some locos. I am driving at setting 150 max, all that is needed is a couple of volts reduction in my case, just to slow things down enough so that my older locos make the stop. You can also do an arrangement with several diodes in succession each feeding a separate section of track, this way the braking is more progressive and realistic, but that's not what I am after in a temporary scenario.
Hi there, Because they would be more complex to implement I think: convert AC to DC, feed to voltage regulator, think about heat dissipation, short circuit protection etc etc... Certainly more elegant and flexible, but not as simple and cost effective as a handful of diodes. Thanks for the visit!
Hi, if you mean in a breaking section, I don't think it would cause a problem, it would only drop the voltage of whatever is coming out of the unit. I'd give it a go and see what happens...
Hi, very interesting video, I will definitely use this method on an analog layout I’m starting next year, but I have a few questions: what values have the diodes you are using? You are using rectify diodes, right? My guess is that you use the following diodes: 1N4001 Rectifier Diode, 50V 1A DO-41 Electronic Silicon Diodes Am I right? Should I use ones with higher rating? I also plan to use the at the output of my many older Märklin transformers that were designed for lower voltages and now produce higher than expected voltages, specially when reversing locomotives. For safety all of them have new power cords. I have many analog locomotives but I also have a few digital locomotives whose decoders can get damaged with voltages higher than normal, according to what I’ve read. My plan is to measure the voltage of each transformer when sending the reverse voltage and the adjust accordingly to be on the safe side.
I am using 50V diodes, rated at 1A with a surge resistance of 30A. This has been working with no issue on my successive layouts for a few years now. I wouldn't use blue transformers with locos equipped with a digital decoder at all, even with new cables, the voltage produced when reversing is far too high.
Of course, and I used to do this, but I found they got very hot and that you needed quite strong ones to achieve the same result. They are also delaying the response from the transfomer in case of short (well, they burn and if power still goes through them, only then does the transformer protection kick in... 😁) . So, I decided to use diodes instead, I find this safer.
Hallo, das sind 1N4001 Dioden, mehr habe ich in diesem Video nicht benutzt. Zu diesem Thema gibt es auch in anderes Video, th-cam.com/video/fJOGHujoRN8/w-d-xo.html. Dort have ich Dioden und Platinenbüchsen auf Lochraster Platinen angelötet, wie man Sie auf eBay, Amazon oder Conrad finden kann. Gruss!
Hallo, immer noch ein schoenes Video und tolle Loks & Wagen !!! Ich hab in der Zwischenzeit eine kleine Orient Express Sammlung (inklusive dem Primex-Set) sowie eine kleine M-Gleis Testanlage fuer die neuen analog Loks aufgebaut: th-cam.com/video/jPjPU6pDFoE/w-d-xo.html
@@The3rdRail Thanks for your response, I accidentally copied & pasted a response to another video about the Primex Orient Express into the comment section of your video. I'm an avid follower of your channel, and have taken quite a bit of information and advise from it. Keep up the good work !!!
There is an email address under the "about" section of the channel. You can simply ask questions in the comment section as well, I might get ideas for a video this way and answer them in pictures.
@@The3rdRail I looked before because your video also said email ID is in the ‘About’ section. So sorry, I still don’t see it. Perhaps u can check. Thanks.
ich kenne mich nicht mit solche Elektrik aus, habe aber was gefunden, Bitte selber lesen. Es ist auf Deutsch, nutze dafür ein Übersetzer deine Wahl, --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Sehr praktisch ist hier der Einsatz von kleinen 12 Volt Halogenglühlampen, wie sie zum Beispiel in modernen Schreibtischlampen (IKEA usw.) eingesetzt werden. Ich habe damals anstelle des Festwiderstandes diese Lampen in die Stromzuführung eingebaut und siehe da, es funktionierte. Ich habe mit einer 12 Volt / 10 Watt Lampe die besten Erfolge erzielt, da die meistens Modellbahnmotoren auch ca. 8 - 10 Watt Leistungsaufnahme haben. Auf diese Weise habe ich die Geschwindigkeit der Loks auf etwa die Hälfte reduziert. Wollte ich die Geschwindigkeit nur um ca. 30 % reduzieren, habe ich eine 20 Watt Lampe verwendet. Aufgrund der physikalischen Eigenschaften verhält sich der ohmsche Widerstand einer Glühlampe anders als der eines Festwiderstandes. Beim Aufleuchten der Lampe verändert sich hier der Widerstand in gewisser Weise dynamisch und nicht statisch. Übrigens hat diese Art der Geschwindigkeitsreduzierung auch noch einen positiven Begleiteffekt. Man erhält zusätzlich eine kostenlose „Gleisbesetztmeldung“, ( Gleisbesetztmelder ), da die Lampen nur dann aufleuchten, wenn sich ein Zug in diesem Streckenbereich befindet und dadurch den entsprechenden Stromkreis geschlossen wird. Wem dieses „Lichtsignal“ zu hell ist, kann auch parallel zur Glühlampe eine LED nebst Vorwiderstand schalten. In diesem Fall würde die „Widerstandslampe“ in einem Bereich der Anlage untergebracht, wo ihr Leuchten nicht stört. Aber immer daran denken, dass diese Lampen auch bei halber selbstgenutzter Leistung noch sehr heiß werden.
Interesting. Early Marklin electric trains used a light bulb to bring the current down too. Not for me, but someone might find this useful, thanks for sharing.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 76 | คู่เอก "ผึ้งหลวง vs สมิงดำ"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9SBshmGQOIM/mqdefault.jpg)
After upload, I had some circuit boards made for the circuits I described in this and another video, th-cam.com/video/fJOGHujoRN8/w-d-xo.html. If you are interested in one of those, please feel free to reach out to me using the channel email address.
Your video almost makes me want to go back to analog M-track layout and loco's. 🙂
thanks!
Well done! Exquisite EXPLANATORY EPISODE!
Thanks a lot.
Very interesting. Never would have thought of this.
Mission accomplished 😉 Glad you found it interesting.
Great video. From a 50 year Marklin fan.
Glad you enjoyed it
Gosh So clever and interesting way of explaining Märklin nuances… well done again!
Many thanks!
Sehr gutes Video, super beschrieben und erklärt. 👍👍Beste Grüße, Martin🎅🎄⛄🚂
Danke sehr! Bin erleichtert. daß es verständlich war :) Gruß aus England.
Very clear explanation. I was about to hook up separate transformers for the braking sections in my new layout, but I’ll give these anti-parallel diodes a try. Thanks a lot! BR, Anders
Cool, glad you found this useful...
Excellent and easy to follow,great graphics. Will incorporate. Thankyou 😁
Glad you like it :)
Thank you for talking the time to explain the system. My first thoughts would be about the need for equal lengths of track around the track circle. Also the need for the different trains to take the same time in each block so a gradient climb may become an art.
Cheers Graham
There is a video on blocks basics available on the channel, you don'y necessary need to have equal lengths of track, you need to ensure that all your blocks do not measure less that the distance required for them to stop. Your blocks can then be extended to have different lengths. Gradients are another story...
Hallo, schönes Video,
als Kind hatte ich eine V200 die über jeden Signalhalt darüber geschossen ist.
Andere Loks sind gleich am Anfang der Stoppstelle stehen geblieben, da hätte man den extra Gleisabschnitt zum Abbremsen gut gebrauchen können um die Bremsstrecken anzugleichen.
Heute fahre ich die alten Loks alle digital, mit gemäßigten Geschwindigkeiten, da gibt es diese Problem nicht mehr.
Schön erklärt, Gruß Kai
Danke sehr. Ja, Digital hat das Thema bremsen in dieser Hinsicht vereinfacht. Schönen Gruß aus England.
The way you switch your block signalling is not fail-safe. I would couple the "green" of the signal in the rear (Signal A) to the "Red" of the local signal (Signal B) on the same switch track, located ahead of Signal B. This way, a train will close the signal it has just passed, thus protecting its rear. At the same time, it clears the signal in the rear, so a train waiting there can proceed, but only as far as the next signal. Trains cannot proceed, until the block in front of them is cleared. With this system, there needs to be at least one block more than the number of trains, as there must always be a clear block for a train to move into, to keep the automation going. The slowest train is going to set the pace, as all the faster ones will have to wait, but the trains can never catch up to each other - unless you havea a visitor, then there is bound to be something that goes wrong.
Also, it is possible to use the signal's catenary sockets to switch the braking section. Power is fed to the section via the diodes at all times, and a bypass is switched on when the signal is green. This makes sure that a train does not slow down, unless the signal is red. Of course, this only works, if your catenary is not powered, and all trains run off the centre rail.
Yep, you are correct for both block switching and signal catenray connectors. I had wired for movement and not for safety on this layout because I did not have a good balance between space and the amount of traffic I was trying to run, call it an experiment 🙂
I usually wire things as you suggest, see th-cam.com/video/fJOGHujoRN8/w-d-xo.html for the current layout
or th-cam.com/video/dNgL195D4qw/w-d-xo.html for the one I am planning at the moment (the linked video is about this very topic).
Thanks for sharing and spending some of your valuable time the channel today
I do think I have a suggestion to save a relay when making a braking section before a signal
If you make the diode bridge fixed permanently to the middle rail then it would always brake when current couldn’t go around it, if you then used the switch in the signal for wich it brakes, that are made to control the overhead wire to make a bridge on the braking Sektion so that the current would flow past the bridge when the signal is green then the braking Sektion is off, when the signal is red the braking Sektion is on.
Hi, that could work too if you are not using the catenary. I left this out of the video for this reason to keep things simple. I think you'd need to double feed the section though, which might require more space. In the end, there is no right way to do this, just different ways :) Thanks for sharing your experience.
Superb 3051 👍
The 3051 are superb I agree, but this class 1200 is a 3161 :) Superb model too! :)
@@The3rdRail They looked quite similar ! But yes, not the same age !
Fantastic video. I am starting to go through your video archives to get some more juicy stuff! I had a Z gauge setup as a teenager with active catenary. I just sold my collection last year (2021) as Z gauge is too small for my fat fingers. I am now 55 years old and wanting to tinker again with some trains with the main focus of having a working catenary. I thought about digital vs analog and I am going to start tinkering with analog again. I have bought some M track, a transformer, one locomotive (3039) and some catenary post and wire. Your mindset with your setup and how you describe functionality is exactly how I think and how I want to proceed. I think I will have a lot of questions for you! Wait a minute...he comes one: I want to setup a signal and breaking section as you have shown in this video. Can you let me know what Marklin catalog numbers I need (signal and special track sections) so I can start scouring ebay? Keep up the great work!
Hi, glad you find the videos useful. You could use semaphore signals 7039 or 7040 or the 7188 light signal. For the track sections, have a look at my little helpers video about contact and switching tracks, it contains the references and describes the behaviour of each type. There is a video in the 2021 layout playlist where I fit braking modules, it's called "braking modules for the block system". You might want to get a copy of a Märklin catalog from the 1980s and the marklin signal manual 0340 to make research easier (google for pdfs, you should get a few hits...). The good old 3039 should soon stop and go automatically :) thanks for the visit!
@@The3rdRail Excellent. Thanks!
👍👍👍
thanks!
if i had more locos :(
one day...
This seems to work only for freight trains and passenger trains without lights. If I was using passenger cars that get their lighting from a slider, this woukd not work, correct?
It would work, see my running session videos.
I think you can do without the extra relay. Just feed the yellow braking section with power both from he diodes and from the green stop section.
Hi Anders! Not too sure I get this... Wouldn't I just be extending the stopping section when the signal is red, without a braking effect, and be braking when the signal is green? Kind of the opposite effect?
Argh, you're right! Ok how about this then: feed diode reduced power to the yellow braking section. Also feed full track power to the yellow section, but through the signal catenary connectors. The catenary connectors conduct on green and are open on red, thereby leaving the yellow section on reduced power under red signal.
@Anders Pedersen Sure, that would work, provided you are not using the catenary ports for catenary, although one could also wire things in parallel if your catenary is on the same transformer as the track in this case. I left these out of the equation for this video to keep things simple, there are many ways to implement. Glad the video got your brain going :) When do we get to see your next temporary masterpiece?
Does a simple resistor work for braking? Perhaps loks are too different in current draw for a resistor to work well for all loks? How about just a single diode? That would chop off one half of the wave, halving the power? That's perhaps too much reduction?
I tried resistors, they work but they need to be quite beefy and can get a bit hot. I think they also delay the short circuit protection on the transformer which is not good. Halving the power is too much for some locos. I am driving at setting 150 max, all that is needed is a couple of volts reduction in my case, just to slow things down enough so that my older locos make the stop. You can also do an arrangement with several diodes in succession each feeding a separate section of track, this way the braking is more progressive and realistic, but that's not what I am after in a temporary scenario.
Why not use an adjustable voltage regulator? They're dirt cheap and work wonders.
Hi there,
Because they would be more complex to implement I think: convert AC to DC, feed to voltage regulator, think about heat dissipation, short circuit protection etc etc... Certainly more elegant and flexible, but not as simple and cost effective as a handful of diodes.
Thanks for the visit!
Hello, Using diodes with electronic analog controllers such as Marklin 7180, do you think it is safe?
Hi, if you mean in a breaking section, I don't think it would cause a problem, it would only drop the voltage of whatever is coming out of the unit. I'd give it a go and see what happens...
Hi, very interesting video, I will definitely use this method on an analog layout I’m starting next year, but I have a few questions: what values have the diodes you are using? You are using rectify diodes, right? My guess is that you use the following diodes:
1N4001 Rectifier Diode, 50V 1A DO-41 Electronic Silicon Diodes
Am I right? Should I use ones with higher rating?
I also plan to use the at the output of my many older Märklin transformers that were designed for lower voltages and now produce higher than expected voltages, specially when reversing locomotives. For safety all of them have new power cords. I have many analog locomotives but I also have a few digital locomotives whose decoders can get damaged with voltages higher than normal, according to what I’ve read. My plan is to measure the voltage of each transformer when sending the reverse voltage and the adjust accordingly to be on the safe side.
I am using 50V diodes, rated at 1A with a surge resistance of 30A. This has been working with no issue on my successive layouts for a few years now. I wouldn't use blue transformers with locos equipped with a digital decoder at all, even with new cables, the voltage produced when reversing is far too high.
@@The3rdRail Thank you for the response and advise.
Sir, have you ever heard of resistors. You can have the same effect with only 1 component
Of course, and I used to do this, but I found they got very hot and that you needed quite strong ones to achieve the same result. They are also delaying the response from the transfomer in case of short (well, they burn and if power still goes through them, only then does the transformer protection kick in... 😁) . So, I decided to use diodes instead, I find this safer.
@The 3rd Rail what is the voltage
@Ethan Sherry up to 24VAC
Hallo, hättest du die genaue Bezeichnung der Elektronik-Bauteile (Dioden usw.)? Viele Grüße und Dankeschön Christoph
Hallo, das sind 1N4001 Dioden, mehr habe ich in diesem Video nicht benutzt.
Zu diesem Thema gibt es auch in anderes Video, th-cam.com/video/fJOGHujoRN8/w-d-xo.html. Dort have ich Dioden und Platinenbüchsen auf Lochraster Platinen angelötet, wie man Sie auf eBay, Amazon oder Conrad finden kann. Gruss!
@@The3rdRail Hallo, vielen Dank für die schnelle Antwort. Welche Bezeichnung hat das Relais? Viele Grüße
Hallo, immer noch ein schoenes Video und tolle Loks & Wagen !!! Ich hab in der Zwischenzeit eine kleine Orient Express Sammlung (inklusive dem Primex-Set) sowie eine kleine M-Gleis Testanlage fuer die neuen analog Loks aufgebaut: th-cam.com/video/jPjPU6pDFoE/w-d-xo.html
I will have a look!
@@The3rdRail Thanks for your response, I accidentally copied & pasted a response to another video about the Primex Orient Express into the comment section of your video. I'm an avid follower of your channel, and have taken quite a bit of information and advise from it. Keep up the good work !!!
Kein Problem und Danke!
Excellent! Very helpful and impressive. Anyway you can be contacted via email? :)
There is an email address under the "about" section of the channel. You can simply ask questions in the comment section as well, I might get ideas for a video this way and answer them in pictures.
@@The3rdRail Thankyou. Will do. Keep up these wonderful instructional videos on how to exploit MArklin analog to the fullest.
@@The3rdRail I looked before because your video also said email ID is in the ‘About’ section. So sorry, I still don’t see it. Perhaps u can check. Thanks.
@@asquasimodo you need to click on the "View email address" button in the details section... of the "About" page on the channel
So sorry, I looked and looked just don”t see it in the Details section. Perhaps it’s visible to you, not not other viewers? Thanks
ich kenne mich nicht mit solche Elektrik aus, habe aber was gefunden, Bitte selber lesen. Es ist auf Deutsch, nutze dafür ein Übersetzer deine Wahl, --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Sehr praktisch ist hier der Einsatz von kleinen 12 Volt Halogenglühlampen, wie sie zum Beispiel in modernen Schreibtischlampen (IKEA usw.) eingesetzt werden. Ich habe damals anstelle des Festwiderstandes diese Lampen in die Stromzuführung eingebaut und siehe da, es funktionierte. Ich habe mit einer 12 Volt / 10 Watt Lampe die besten Erfolge erzielt, da die meistens Modellbahnmotoren auch ca. 8 - 10 Watt Leistungsaufnahme haben. Auf diese Weise habe ich die Geschwindigkeit der Loks auf etwa die Hälfte reduziert. Wollte ich die Geschwindigkeit nur um ca. 30 % reduzieren, habe ich eine 20 Watt Lampe verwendet. Aufgrund der physikalischen Eigenschaften verhält sich der ohmsche Widerstand einer Glühlampe anders als der eines Festwiderstandes. Beim Aufleuchten der Lampe verändert sich hier der Widerstand in gewisser Weise dynamisch und nicht statisch.
Übrigens hat diese Art der Geschwindigkeitsreduzierung auch noch einen positiven Begleiteffekt. Man erhält zusätzlich eine kostenlose „Gleisbesetztmeldung“, ( Gleisbesetztmelder ), da die Lampen nur dann aufleuchten, wenn sich ein Zug in diesem Streckenbereich befindet und dadurch den entsprechenden Stromkreis geschlossen wird. Wem dieses „Lichtsignal“ zu hell ist, kann auch parallel zur Glühlampe eine LED nebst Vorwiderstand schalten. In diesem Fall würde die „Widerstandslampe“ in einem Bereich der Anlage untergebracht, wo ihr Leuchten nicht stört. Aber immer daran denken, dass diese Lampen auch bei halber selbstgenutzter Leistung noch sehr heiß werden.
ich benutze für Texte ----- TWP - Translate Web Pages ---- für Mozilla Firefox
Interesting. Early Marklin electric trains used a light bulb to bring the current down too. Not for me, but someone might find this useful, thanks for sharing.