Why you shouldn't remove your stock intake manifold
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ย. 2024
- Learn what Charge Motion Control Valves (CMCV) are, what they do, and why you probably shouldn't remove them from your Mustang.
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After years of working on this car and having it tuned multiple times, here's what I would say now:
- Don't get the ford performance intake manifold if you are sticking with stock cams and are unwilling/unable to get a dyno tune.
- The same goes for removing the CMCVs with delete plates (just not worth it without a dyno tune).
- If you are boosted or going to be soon, definitely remove the CMCVs or get the ford performance manifold.
The PCM on these 4.6 3-valves is fairly complex and sensitive to engine modifications. Sometimes mods can actually reduce power (like removing the CMCVs w/o updating the tune or using a canned tune!).
Your best bet is to install a set of parts all at once (intake, manifold, cams, headers, underdrive pulley, etc), then get the car tuned. That way your Mustang is tuned for its specific configuration which will maximize gains.
The charge motion control valves look like individual throttle bodies with a gaping hole on it at one corner. Can it be modded to actually work like ITBs, thus eliminating the need for the main throttle body?
Boosting includes supercharger, yes?
Another great option aside from the ford performance intake manifold is the Holley Sniper EFI Hi-Ram Intake Manifold. However its not worth it if your not boosting your mustang, but can make significant power if you have forced induction, and other bolt-ons. I think you can use the 65mm Cobra TB with a TB Spacer on it because the opening is 65mm, but I am not sure. However the Ford Performance TB also works just the same on it. Also when you have the Holley Sniper EFI already on it, then I think you do not need Steeda Delete plates.
Hello Sir, so I understand correctly from this video and your comment. Is , I’m potentially waisting my month and actually loosing performance with the ford racing intake parked with throttle body and jlt intake and tune if it’s not cammed or boosted. If I have neither and leave it naturally aspirated with these upgrades only, then it’s counterproductive?
I hear your voice when I read this
As a 30 yr engine builder and tuner, I can tell you that I did extensive testing on my '05 GT and can show that it is not the charge motion plates that make better low speed torque. Removal of the CMC plates actually makes power throughout the RPM range of the engine - about 5 ft/lbs down low, up to 10-12 ft/lbs @ 5k RPM. The loss of low speed torque you experienced was due to the slightly shorter runners in the Ford Racing manifold. Otherwise, your conclusion that the FRP manifold is really only beneficial for higher RPM engine combo's is correct.
So is it good to use the or not ?
@@3v_karimm I can't get the takeaway either, other than the charge motion plates didn't impact the tq, but rather the shorter runners in the Ford Racing.
@@nomehdrider it depends on the application
Richard holdner has proven time and time again it's runner design! Long runner make tq down low and mid range while short runners lose tq down low and make more horsepower up top
@@lucasmullins5100 I can't understand why Ford would spend so much money on something they wouldn't have researched extensively and deemed necessary.
But, this does remind me of the IMRC (Intake Manifold Runner Control) design of my 02 Mustang 3.8 V6. It's the same concept and they are individual plates in the runners that open up the higher in RPM you go. But all that extra only produces a few extra down low tq and hp.
I can't express how much I look forward to these uploads. The quality is spot on. This is great info comparing the intakes.
For a guy who said is not a mechanic your are providing very good technical comments ! I was looking to buy and install the Ford Racing Performance intake manifold on my S197 but now I am seriously questioning this idea...
It’s worth it with a good tune and or supporting mods
The valves aren't increasing back pressure. There is no back pressure in the intake (unless you have a supercharger and the back pressure, better known as boost, is created by the compressor). What the CMCV does is act like a small partial throttle valve, a deliberate restriction, which, if you call the venturi in a carburetor, increases the air speed which is what alters the charge motion and leads to better low rpm combustion, power, and drivability.
My dad told me sometimes it is best just to leave well enough alone. I built my old camaro to play with and enjoy my stock, dependable 5.0 with 20 mpg at 435hp. I have bottom end , top end and fuel mileage. The new technology is amazing yet complicated and expensive.
I had Steeda CMCV delete plates on my old 3V with a proper retune for the deletes, and it was a fantastic mod for hardly any money. Picked up over a tenth and 1 mph in the 1/8 mile with no loss in under the curve power.
Love your vids btw. My 06 was also Tungsten Grey and I still miss it to this day. Love my 2018 but I'll always have much respect for a proper 3V.
I had the same experience with a ported 2018 manifold on a 2011 Coyote. The peak was higher but tons of power was lost under the curve. Unless you over-rev the motor, the benefits of such manifolds stay out of range. Turns out, Ford knows what they are doing.
Did you get a retune after the '18 install? I've seen average power levels go up on most of the data I've seen, but am curious about your experience.
Interested to know who tuned your ported 18 manifold
@@NITROUSnBIASPLYS The car has been tuned by a reputable drag racing shop and I got a re-tune right away.
It`s a Gen1 coyote, so the ported 2018 manifold is using lockouts. This means the actuators are gone and can`t be tuned, resulting in mid range power loss. It technically still made more power at 7000rpm (+2whp) and likely would have been able to make a little more even higher up. That rev range is not very useful for my application and lap times though and would be hurt by having less power from 4500-6500. With a give and take loss of -25whp and -30ftlbs compared to stock.
And may I ask who’s ported manifold you were running? I have one I was planning on putting on my car this spring for a drag racing application
@@NITROUSnBIASPLYS I still think it`s a great piece for the right application and you totally can make it work with the right support mods. It`s just not the silver bullet it gets hyped up to and you need to be willing to over-rev the car to at least 7500.
Drag racing is not that bad as you only spend brief moments in high RPMS. On road racing we spend 20mins constantly revving from 4500 to 7000 and that four to five times a day.
Go figure why I`m not keen on revving to 8000.
It has been ported by Bret Barber.
This is how you keep a steady audience . . . research, facts and numbers, NOT B.S like most of YT content. Good work.
It's all in the tune evidently . I purchased a 19000 mi . 05 and it wouldn't do a rolling burnout in first gear , it had an off idle stumble and didn't pull in high gear at low rpm very well . I did a tune by Brenspeed with Steeda cold air intake , underdrive pulleys , and charge motion delete plates and on the test drive was very surprised at the difference in all driving conditions , especially on the pedal to the metal test in second gear at a low speed , which now broke the tires loose .
the biggest problem isnt the manifold. its the bama tune xD
That’s some facts man can’t make power on trash ass tunes lol
@@basketballphenom25 😂
I know this is old but what's the best tune for 3vs?
@@jake-rz9vq Manuel pazo aka lito
@@LightningFast240 thanks man I just got mine not too long ago, and I heard he's in south America right? So how long does it take to get a tune and all?
Mine didn't have them when I bought it used, last owner removed them. After watching your video I went online and got me a a CMCV and now my car runs way better.
Let me first start off by saying, VERY WELL DONE VIDEO, amazing content, and editing skills. I will however need to interject a few things. What software do you use? Adobe Premiere?
1. The ford racing manifold is designed to either (A) be run with forced induction or (B) be run with a more aggressive motor setup (stroked engine, aggressive cams, aftermarket valve train, ported heads) where people say "screw low end power" and build the engine to live in the top RPMs (3600-7500). Yes, a well setup 3v valve train with VCT locks can rev to 7500, stock valve train is safe for 6800.
2. The engine, heads, camshafts, manifold, and throttle body are designed to work TOGETHER. If running stock camshafts and valve train, you'll definitely see a loss of low-mid range power with the removal of CMCV's. Once you start getting rid of certain parts, obviously you'll lose performance in certain areas. The issue was, you didn't make up for any losses. With the addition of a more aggressive cam, 93 octane gasoline or E85/E98, and a more advanced spark with a good tuner, you'd be making HUGE gains in the top end that would make not having low end torque irreverent because you'd never spend time there. I hope this cleared things up. I love the content, please keep showing the 3v nation some love!
Add me on instagram @Slow197GT
Great video brudah! I like that you are digging deep into the details in NA land. I think many folks do not realize that the power that you are going to obtain with forced induction is directly related to what you get NA. A 320 whp NA 3V will get about 640 whp with 1 atm of boost as compared to a 260 whp 3V getting about 520 whp at the same boost level. That's a big difference IMO.
I'm glad I didn't waste my money on the ford racing intake manifold!
I learned from many years ago during a college talk from a big three engineer (ford, gm, chrysler) how obsessed they are about atomization of fuel and the tumble swirl flow characteristics of an air fuel charge into the combustion chamber. They had plenty of evidence including some slick video of the phenomenon in action. Think of a diver jumping off a platform twisting and flipping at the same time, that is the tumble and swirl they speak of. Doing so mixes the fuel evenly with the air and atomizes the fuel into tiny equal size droplets like an aerosol spray. The better the tumble and swirl, the better mixed the air fuel charge is. The plates here introduce this movement into the airflow at lower engine speeds, and what this is what the old post is talking about. The analogy with the hose is correct as well, but that is only part of it.
Kudos for you for not chasing peak torque and hp only.
Everyone with the newer 5.0's always delete the IMRC (same thing as CMCV) when doing a 2018 manifold swap. Supposedly keeping the IMRC's causes problems, but I kept mine and have ZERO issues. I think people aren't hooking the pigtails/vacuum lines correctly and that causes those problems. Which is why some people have issues and some do not. I followed VMP's install video exactly and that's probably why I had no issues.
Wow, I was just about to do this mod today too. I installed the driveshaft last week, but today was going to be cold air kit, charge motion delete, and tune day. I guess I need to go turbo.
I'm a chevy guy and really getting hooked on your channel
Who would've known it performed better without the FR manifold. I'm glad you are providing us all this information. Cheers!
Tune’s fault not manifold
@@schmidtygt tuning won't bring back the lost low end torque when you install an intake that's designed for top end power. It cannot make up for the CMCVs, nor can it make up for the change in runner length.
The FR manifold is meant for RPM so with out bigger cans it's not Benidict Al it's not the intakes fault it's the wrong intake for his combination
I went with a Roush stage 1 supercharger with the Roush tune because I had thought about going the N/A route, and decided it wasn't worth it. I know for supercharged applications the stage 1 is at the low end but it gets you more power than the N/A parts for about the same amount of money and no drivability issues. I didn't want to rev the engine higher and I didn't want to have to go into the exhaust because being in California I would be changing parts out every 2 years. It is funny the gen 1 coyote makes 420hp and 390 ft tq in factory form. When I started building engines if you got 400hp out of a street able engine you were doing great. I had a 500hp 383 that couldn't run power brakes due to no manifold vacuum, would over heat in traffic and it needed a bigger stall converter just to drive around.
Man I'm so glad you made this. I've been debating these on my 3v for the last few years now, solid vid man!
Interesting results. I gained about 8hp at the very top end with the stock manifold and CMCV delete plates (stock TB, steeda CAI). However, I'm also running a Lito custom tune (both pre CMCV and post CMCV) which may explain some of the difference. Anyways, great video -- looking forward to more content from you.
I drilled out my butterflies and installed a gt500 throttle body with a lito tune i have to disagree with you my cars running like a raped ape.
Bought it before watching the video oh well looks like an excuse to buy camshafts now
Great video - it helped clarify what I thought. Best to keep the stock manifold for everyday driving. I may go with the GT350 manifold eventually since that one has the CMCV, but you also lose low-end torque with that one.
Mate i'm don't know how you pumps out on my recommendation list, but yours content level outstanding.
Nice work on the time and research! That spread sheet says it all, how much dedication and hard work will make your car sound, look and ride amazing. Keep on the great work, I'm very excited to see what comes next. Which is why I subscribed to stay updated on your build. 👌👌
my favorite mustang on the internet... id literally pay for this mans content
The garden hose pressure increase isn't due to some pressure differential with the outside air. It's due to the venturi effect. Nothing to do with air pressures.
Always dreamy of getting that ford intake. After this video I understand what proper build to use it for. Thanks for the info I'll probably hold off on that and put my money to other mods 👍👍
Your videos are absolutely awesome... Thank you. I suspect there may have been a tuning issue with your stage 2 setup, specifically the one with the FR manifold. How confident were you in the tune? You probably know this already, but an intake with shorter runners (like the FRPP one) will have much better airflow at high rpm than an intake with long runners like the stock piece.
In addition, I think it would be worth your while, and help explain things better to find out exactly how the CMCP's behave, i.e. their position in regards to throttle input, RPM, and load. Figure out the intricacies of the stock tune and your aftermarket tunes. The FRPP manifold didn't suffer where I thought it would most: low RPM. Theoretically, low RPM is where the CMCP's should do the most work and have the most effect due to the fact that air velocity is the slowest at low RPM.
Super happy I subscribed and super happy for the next video!
Some good points here. I thought the intake runners on the FRPP were longer as it sits about two inches higher. Do you have a source for this?
I am not confident in the tune, but am not confident in the others either. They were all canned Bama tunes. We tweaked the one for the FRPP a bit and were able to squeeze out another 5 hp, but I figured comparing stock Bama tunes only was more fair.
The most scientific approach would be to get another custom tune by the same guy who just did it (car is making quite a bit more power now) with the FRPP installed and compare the results. Maybe I'll do that maybe not... it's another $500 and another evening spent swapping the mani.
And thanks for the compliments, much appreciated.
If you search "Three valve intake Manifold test-Three's a crowd" on google you should find some information on it. The FRPP one is taller simply because the runners are less curvy than the stock manifold. I guess think of it as intake runner length does not equal intake manifold height. Looks can be deceiving haha.
And interesting about the tune. It stands reason to believe that the more modifications you put on the car, the more messed up (or incorrect) the bama tune will be, simply because there are more variables for them to account for (and sometimes they can't even get the simple stuff right!).
TBH the only thing that seems "off" with your tune is the midrange. Generally speaking, people don't pick up much more than 5-15 wheel at around 6k with the FRPP manifold, which goes along decently well with your results. But, they also don't loose much low end, and sure as hell don't get the weirdly inconsistent midrange that you've got. Glad to hear the car is doing better now!
I love these videos so so so much, I'm starting my build on my 07' this summer so these are super helpful and very high quality. Keep it up!!!
Have a 17 GT350 Shelby with a flat plane 5.2 L with a procharger at around 6 pounds of boost, E85, Kooks long tubes and mid pipe. The car responded quite well when my tuner set the charge motion control valves wide open at all times regardless of the rpm or load.
I would like to thank you for all you do. This is the only video I could find that explained this and it saved me a lot of time and money. So again I thank you and I am now subscribed.
Great info! Thanks for sharing. I'm running the Ford Racing intake and TB,Detroit Rocker cams,JBA longtubes and a 3 inch exhaust.One piece driveshaft,and 410 gears.With stock plugs and coil packs,it dyno'd at 365 hp at 6700 rpm's and 340 on the torque.It drives great,especially at the low and mid range for the street,and still pulls like a bear in the higher rpm's.Those Rockers were the ticket. Coming from someone who owned 2 Boss 302's and a Boss 351,my '06 GT is the most fun to drive compared to the other three.Good luck!
Would you happen to have a picture of your dyno run? Would be interesting to compare charts.
Sent you some stuff on FB...
I put 4:10's, full exhaust, pulleys, frpp cams, jlt series 3 intake and frpp intake manifold, lito tune, bbk throttle body on my 3v and zero complaints, pulls like a train
How is your low end below 4k? Do you have manual or auto?
@@jimbrow83 my car honestly pulls like a train for what is it, i have no bottom end power issues. It pulls hard up top better than ever too
I installed a similar setup in my 05 GT and I'm so glad I didn't buy de FR manifold now that I'm seeing this. I finally contacted a local tuner a week ago and got my car up to 307 whp and 322 lb tq. I have no idea what mod I should do next, tho. Guess I'll wait for your next stage video!
If you’re not hoping for big numbers stay stock manifold if you plan to do a lot of bolt ons tune the car spray it or go boosted or even build the motor go after market manifold
Ford recommends CNC port and polished heads with a 3way valve job. Along with there cams. They got 50hp gain with the intake manifold but it doesn’t matter we all just circle back and save up for coyote’s
Good explanations on the subject. I think it really comes down to what u plan to do with the car. Then adjust your mods accordingly. Nice, informative vid. Keep em coming.
Great videos and content. I have to mention though that for the 3v 4:10s are not drag only. They are great for daily driving and will help your cams tremendously. Stock 3vs come with 3:55s. American racing has a great video on 4:10s on a 3v. Even the host mentions that he was surprised at the drivability of the 4:10s on the 3v. Now if you start talking 5.0 then yes 4:10s cross into the drag only realm. On my 5.0 I have 3:73 but for my 3v 2009 gt I have 4:10s. You won’t regret 4:10s.
If you are racing and geared low then you want the delete plates. The FRPP intake is worth a little more but from my experience with 3v's in the past its not worth the extra $700 for it. Do delete plates and get someone who knows how to tune a 3v and have at least 4:10's and you will love it. Most people don't race and gear there car that low so they notice the loss of low end tq. If you are geared you wont notice it trust me. Plus a good 3v tuner will have the timing tables so good on the low end it makes up for it. That's the beauty of VVT.
Yeah I've found if you have a really good tune, it's worth removing them. But it's weird to buy a $250 part and get a $500 dyno tune... so delete plates should be installed in conjunction with a bunch of other upgrades to make the build more cost-effective.
@@Four_Eyes right I agree. I've done a few 3v's and always do cams at the same time and you get a nice bump. Always gears first though.
Good Video! Glad someone understands why Ford does what they do with factory engines!
In short, if you are N/A keep em. If you are boosted delete them, it will make things more simple and they will restrict flow more than anything.
I deleted mine with my Paxton hot rod cam setup and I am glad I did. Car feels smoother and stronger.
Garrett what throttle body did you pair it with?
Cutting to the cammed out blue Vette was freaking hilarious! We do love the imagine our rides in those elevated positions, don't we?
Alittle confused because I've my research and found it helps and a dyno shop said it help alot and alot of peoples reviews they are really happy with the power they did gain from the intake!!!
This manifold is fine if the car has cams and a dyno tune.
@@Four_Eyes I don't have cams but I do have long tube headers 410 gears and the guy that's going to tune it at the shop says I'll be fine and pick up some more power.
Talk to the same guy that tuned my car and your right. I don't just the other mustang shop that said I'd be fine so I'm going to get some cams intake manifold and throatle body. I can't wait. Thanks
He mentioned back presure in the intake side using the butterfly valve. There IS no back pressure unless its suplied and its not
Go with the Ford Racing inake manifold and you will see 35 more horsepower at least
You lost me at Bama tune.....
BAMA is ok for a stock car, but if you are adding mods to your car go with Lund, Lito or Brenspeed for your tuning. BAMA is crap and very generic and pushed by a lot of TH-camrs who get free product from them.
RIGHT BRO?????? WTFFFF
@@ls4.8frank Lito FUCKING slaughtered my MPG 12MPG vs 19 with bama, and made the same or less power on the dyno vs bama.
@@jhondoe1483 yeah, but what is the difference in timing and fueling? Are you positive Lito didn't have those correct whereas BAMA has them mediocre? BAMA is like driving an untuned new car and Lito is like driving a new car tuned.
@@ls4.8frank I’m positive my Lito tune was intentionally pushing really rich to protect the motor it’s not a bad tune at all but it’s not really a good one the idea that bama is bad comes from the old v7 tunes nobody has those issues with them these days. I run brenspeed now with good MPG and 5-10 more HP across the whole bottom half of the curve, never looked back but that Lito tune was a nightmare not that all his tunes are I know he is beloved but my point is nobody’s got the perfect tune bama does a fine job for lightly modded cars
Thanks! I needed info on the cmcv because my wife’s mustang makes a horrible sound at idle sometimes and now I know it is the cmcv sticking open
Thank you for taking time to explain this. I was about to drop $750 on this on a stock motor with a CAI.
Man just contact comp cams and get a real tune from a tuner...a custom camshaft can give you more low end, there are different grinds to camshafts...not to mention having an intake and exhaust set up to match your goals....exhaust primary tube lengths and diameter can change more than you think...good luck man and good vid
Amazingly explained just what I was looking for, great work bro and keep it coming thanks a lot
Applications is everything. If its mostly normal driving stay stock. If you wanna race and have other mods it's a benefit. Also a custom tune makes a big difference between part selection tunes.
Yes I completely understand. Part of the reason why I had to ditch the boss 302 mai on my 5.0 I missed the tq
Only use lockouts when running boost.....Naturally aspirated needs the IMRCs working and working well.....And after 30,000 miles you may need to pull the manifold and clean them up as they will get sticky and throw random misfire codes which most people have problems diagnosing.....
I hate bama tune as it has created nightmares to some who have used it. I like the bullydog tune better.
Bro ive gotta admit. Mine looks badass but your is super clean which makes it look badass. Beautiful car man.
My man, your videos are top notch! Love your car, absolutly cannot wait for next video! Keep up the great work!!!
Wow.i was ready to order ford manifold for my 06 stang monster.Thanks for finding obscure article i never read amything about this.Awesome bro.Thank you very much.
4:40 love the sound. Lol
Those act as valve event specific choke plates. Easy as that.
Point two:
Not procharger. That's a brand. You mean centrifugal supercharger.
Twin screws are knows as positive displacement or rootes blowers (old term based on a manufacturer).
I'm glad I'm not wasting my money on any of these "upgrade" parts and going straight to a supercharger. Just bought a used Magnuson MP112 for a 4.6 3V for $650 with the lower intake, throttle body and 39lb/hr Ford Racing injectors.
That's a steal.
@@Four_Eyes I know it, wish I could send a picture of it, I'm still in shock.
Been waiting on that morning notification, love these videos !
So glad I came across your channel! I want to stay NA in my 08 GT and have been eyeing up that FRPP intake manifold for a while now. This has me completely convinced to stick with my stock manifold, just add the TB maybe and most certainly the LT headers and 1 piece drive shaft. Quality of the videos is A1 man, your exhaust video was on point... all the different perspectives really helped me decide what to do with my build. Keep it up!
Thanks Justin. I think about 80 - 85% of my power gains are coming from the headers and x-pipe alone. I felt a large difference after getting them installed and then another noticeable difference after a custom tune. Also, I'll be maxing out the car on an NA setup first.
I had same mods except I had stage 2 comp cams and I put 336 hp 329 tq
C&L cold air
Ford racing intake manifold
Mac long tube headers
Mac off road pro chamber
And bbk throttle body
It really does help if you’re cammed and have gears. I also had 4.10 gears.
Yeah , I had an 05gt like that . 3800rpms at like 80mph and 15mpg highway. Ended up getting tired of it and got a coyote . If I could go back I would have saved the 1000s of dollars and just got a coyote to begin with.
Good content but as to the FR Performance Intake Manifold I've found some differing info. 1.) The intake runner lengths of the FRPIM are 9.5" long to the OEMIM's 11" w\ both IM's using an open plenum design (OEM plenum is located in lower section below the runner entrance centerline & below the TB bore, FRPIM plenum is located in upper section w\ plenum floor & TB bore parallel to the runner entrance centerline….the effective runner lengths of the FRPIM are only 1.5" shorter (I know as I physically measured them) so the low end power drop between the 2 manifolds at low RPM is very negligible as 1.5" of runner length variation means virtually nothing at low RPM velocity-wise due to air flow frictional coefficient differences being virtually non-existent. This matters only at high RPM's due to very high air flow velocities thus higher flowing friction....which is in favor of the FRPIM. 2.) The CMCV plates themselves DO provide better fuel atomization & mixing qualities (fuel vapor from the injectors transforming totally into a gas) so you WOULD get better fuel burn at low RPM's as well as slightly better cylinder filling by directing the bulk of the incoming airflow towards 1 side of the intake port to take advantage of the natural EGR effect due to valve overlap which would provide some power improvements but MAINLY much better low RPM fuel ECONOMY w\o a large power drop off due to the air turbulence created by the plates, but again this would not lend solely to the increased low RPM HP\TQ amounts that was shown on the dyno graphs (not to mention that if that were so, don't you think the Ford engineers would've kept the CMCV's installed on the FRPIM? After all, they did design the unit as well as the engine.....). 3.) The MAIN reason for the large low end power gains was due to making changes within the TUNE FILE itself! I know this 1st hand now as I had my '09 GT recently local custom dyno tuned w\ my FRPIM installed (my setup is similar to Four Eyes' '07 GT mod-wise: FR Bullit 85mm CAI, GMS Hi Flow calibrated MAF sensor, BBK 62mm TB, FRPIM, Kooks 1 5\8" LT headers, Kooks Catted X-pipe, Pypes Super Bomb Mid Muffler catback exhaust) w\ a baseline pull (also was using a Bama 91R tune prior, just as Four Eyes had done....) then pulled after making adjustments in the tune files....I ended up getting a near identical low RPM HP\TQ increase pattern result w\ my FRPIM installed as Four Eyes did w\ the stock OEM manifold w\ CMCV's active (30+ HP, 65+ TQ increase
I have a 2016 Mustang GT. I took the stock intake manifold off, and replaced it with a factory F-150 5.OL manifold. Why? Because it makes 25 - 40 more ft/lbs of torque. Yes, I lost a little HP at the very top of the rev range, but my car is a street car, and in a purely street car, more TQ makes the car more enjoyable to drive. F-150 manifold also has IMRC or CMC valves and does not require a re-tune! And the best part..., it cost me less than $100.
I appreciate the video great info, you clearly do the work, Thanks. Also love the fact that there is another person who wears a collar shirt and knit sweater when taking apart their motor! :) By far the best dressed mustang mechanic out there!
So glad you are doing this. Single handedly stopped me from wasting money on a different intake manifold when going with my cams next. :) Thanks. I to have proper CAI, LT Headers, Offroad mid pipe, and go high flow catback exhaust with 93 bama tune. However, I am displeased with Bama tunes ability to clean up some items. I need to find a good tuner too..
Thanks for saving me money!
EXACTLY. Very good point.
Hey, maybe that’s why it’s called Racing Intake. If you really want more hp. Install hotter cams.
Great info and research can’t wait to see what the new tune does!
Now I’m not 100% percent sure about this but I’m decently sure the example of the water hose is inaccurate. The main difference is that when using IRMC plates your moving air and the restriction causes and increase in air velocity to meet demand of total flow. The only reason you net a total CFM increase is because of the scavenge effect in which a pressure differential is created and cannot exist so the air behind it is pulled it to equalize the difference . Essentially it’s slingshotting the air from the rear . It’s the same principle that allows air planes to fly. The Bernoulli principle. This would not be applicable to a liquid as the energy needed to create a vacuum in a liquid would be insufficient. Someone please tell me if I got that right .
Air is neutral and doas not flow by pressure like water do. Air itself comes to the cylinders where fire is, more space for air to go, more air will go, you lost the power becouse of to many air soaking to the cylinders and fuel injection are the same, its like you are leaning out the fuel, tune needed.
Love this channel!! Love the way you explain things man!! Hopefully you do more videos like this one!!
Not always a ported msd picked up 30-35whp on a c6 zo6. I picked up 20 with my msd intake on my c7 and picked up the same tq and more under the curve and extended my usable powerband.
It's also a bigger motor......
What about centrifugal superchargers like Vortech? They’re like a turbo design that sits on the front of the engine
This is exactly why I haven't removed mine, I spray 100 shot on it and it's crazy with bolt ons and tune.
I heard some people having issues with the 62 mm throttle body plates hitting the stock manifold
Why anyone builds these motors without forced induction is beyond me lol. We've spoke about why you are going in stages but there are a lot of bolt on S197's out there and it just baffles me lol. Good content though brother I dig the channel so far 🖒🖒
Vinny P you are correct. There is absolutely no need to do any kind of engine work, cams, intake, etc, when you can just install a supercharger for in instant 450plus horsepower. It's just a waste of money to do anything otherwise
3644Darrell yeah I mean I know for him he's creating content which is great and also working in stages for budget and so on so I get. Personally going all in out of the gate was the only way I saw doing it lol
Good point. So if I did add a supercharger to my almost stock 4.6 3v, which one would you go for? And do you think it would cause issues with stock exhaust? Right now, all I have is the AIRAID race CAI, and a DiabloSport canned tune.
Raymond Marin Personally I would spend a little more and use a Hellion turbo. Turbos make both low and high end torque. My quote for everything installed by a reputable shop here in the Atlanta area was 8,600.00 for the turbo and 7500.00 for a Procharger. Only approx.1,200 of that is labor
Not everyone wants a 400+hp car..but wants a little more than stock..
I keep going back and forth about whether I want this intake manifold or not. I have the frpp hot rod cams in the car which I know don’t add a lot of power but the car does feel significantly stronger above 5k.
I want to build this engine as much as I reasonably can without boost (for now) so that will include long tubes and taking mass off the pulleys and driveshaft, but I really can’t make up my mind about the manifold.
I know I’ll probably see better high end power with a proper tune but I don’t know if it justifies the loss in low end power
Cmcv valves give a vtec like feeling at 3000rpm, it drove me nuts I enjoy my ford racing intake.
Vetch feels awesome
Wow this is eye opening I really thought the cobra jet intake manifold was the best for improved performance except as you gave your explanation I couldn't help but to think why didn't he upgrade either the fuel rail or the injectors or both I mean what's the point in having a lot of air going and going out if you don't have enough fuel to mach ??
The intro to this always reminds me of Charlie from Always Sunny in Philadelphia.
What about running the Steeda Motion Plates in place of the stock?
Does that have a similar affect as the aftermarket high rise intakes?
Thanks?
Hey, good question. No, they yield pretty different curves actually. The intake runners on the ford racing manifold sap low-end torque, but let the engine breath way better above 5,000 rpm. The stock manifold is optimized for low and mid-range torque, but really struggles at high RPM. From Ford's perspective, this makes sense as most people favor drivability over maximum power in the top-end.
When the throttle reaches a threshold (~50% I'm guessing) the CMCVs will go from fully closed to fully open. If you floor it, there's about a 1-second delay before the CMCVs actually open. So removing the charge motion valves makes the car feel quicker because it removes that delay. They also marginally improve power in the mid-range. I just recently compared my FBO and cammed 3V with the stock mani, stock mani + delete plates, and the ford performance intake manifold. The stock mani with the CMCVs removed netted me about 5tq and 1hp over just the stock mani.
If you decide to remove the CMCVs you will need a tune. The ECU recognizes that the valves are not responding and changes the engine's timing. In my case, my car "felt" quicker, but on the dyno actually made less power until being remapped.
Thank you friend for your prompt reply. (I know the thread 🧵 has been up awhile). Though it looks Nice, after studying up I had already decided Not to do the Ford Performance intake. I thought the Steeda plates might be a nice alternative. I’m gathering that they are Not worth it then. Save the money. I had considered the Steeda plates while doing the cams.
I don’t race the car. It is a second vehicle to drive to work and enjoy.
Sure forced induction would be fun, But that is more money than I care to spend.
I am fortunate to have a really good tuner Not far away. So yes, after mods he will dyno-tune it or hook it back up to his laptop again. Prob with new mods, it would go on the dyno.
Car is tuned well. I just want the cams for the sound and a few more ponies.
I think I’m going with the hot rod cams as they are a Ford part for that Ford engine. They also don’t require extra changes to install. Last, they have better gains throughout out the powerban.
Drive ability.
(These I’m sure you know).
That’s the reasons I’m goin with the FRPP hot rod cams.
Any options or suggestions would be appreciated.
Thank You!
P.s. read many times cams like headers....that has already been taken care of.
Good information glad we got smart people in the world, keep the pedal to the metal👌👌
Four Eyes 03:28 - 03:50 is wrong, water has its own pressure and air is dont, if you put empty ballon and drop it on the ground it will fall, but if you drop ballon with full of air it will fall slowly, that means air has nor pressure and its neutral, reason is why air comes into throutle body is becouse fire is requires air to sustain. I deleted the butterfly valves and reprogramed ecu, thats added about 4 hp.
Seriously another great informative video, can't wait to see Stage 2 video. See you around town.
if you want low end torqe you need itbs or just go with an old school root or twin screw style supercharger
I’ve been wondering if it would be the same case with the boss 302 intake manifold.
Thanks for the second video my uncle almost bought that ford racing air intake after he seen your video he’s gonna keep the original
unless he has full bolt-ons, aggressive cams, and is getting a fresh dyno tune, not worth it
if you have a 2015-2017 ford mustang gt and are going with a 2018 ford mustang gt intake manifold just get the IMRC pigtails people no lockouts save your CMCV
Upgraded my 16 GT to the 18 IM but funny thing is Palm Beach Dyno wanted me to lock out the IMRC & CMCV valves! This upgrade cost me over $1800CAD/Parts/Labor/Tune and if I could go back I would as the only noticeable gains are on top "BIG Difference" but mid to low I do notice a loss which also bothers me because on a daily this is where we need the power more...
Honestly this is just my opinion. I wouldn't modify the cars from 2005-09 id just replace the old stock parts with newer stock oem parts im not looking to get more horse power i want reliability and longevity so thats the route i went with my build i wanted easy to access cheap parts i can find pretty easy i also didnt wanna dump a bunch of money chasing more horse power i have enough to have fun when i want to thats good enough for me if i do make other modifications i plan on doing most of the work at once or in big chunks when i have a second vehicle so the mustang can get a little TLC maybe have it set up for track days
Well installed today everything went smooth other than a tb bolt snapping 😡 loaded the Bama tune didn't notice any low end loss didn't get on it to see if any high end gain
Nice work! Cutting that fuel crossover line is no fun.
I watched you for quite a few years now man I think this motor is just add nos motor now I do think there are transmission and rear end components that need to be addressed but this motor is a peek horsepower motor for its kind I figured you would know that
Great video, thank you. When my intake cracked on my 05 CVPI, I bought what I thought was a stock intake but after seeing the stock intake that you have with the little doors on the bottom of the intake I'm thinking I got screwed cuz mine didn't have them ??
One question...why did you buy a new OEM intake manifold instead of using the one that was on the car previously ?
I was asking myself the samething! Good vid...
I finished installing the Ford Racing intake manifold, along with the valve covers and throttle body, at about 5am that day. In a short-sighted fury, I just tossed everything. I really thought I would never use the stock mani again.
When the new one arrived, its CMCV connector didn't fit, so I had to hunt down the cable that connects stock manifolds to 05-08 Mustangs (the new one I got is for 09-10). This was a huge PITA and basically I had to shoot half of this video twice.
So you just spliced the old style connector onto the new manifold? I have one coming to replace my sport tracs single bore TB in favor of the larger GT design.
That’s why you’re not tuned by the 3v god Lito himself lol that intake is meant to be supported by the ford racing camshafts it’s the perfect pair and along long tubes and a Lito tune promise the low or mid end gains won’t decrease as much
You make great videos. I can't wait to see more and how your car turns out!
Altitude and air density can make a huge difference. From what I see your down 1 inch of manifold pressure you must be at at around 5k in altitude. Just a guess
yep sucks, sucks a lot.
Curious if the findings (significant mid range torque loss) would hold true on the 4v Coyotes. The Boss 302 manifold (PN M-9424-M50BR) has always been on my wants list when I eventually get into looking for more power from my '14 GT.
So I was thinking buying the ford manifold but I guess try getting new one one and Detroit rocker cams and headers with full exhaust should be good right? I have 2005 with 19,000 miles