Repertoire: The BEST Sibelius Fifth Symphony
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2024
- This glorious symphony cost Sibelius a huge amount of work before it assumed its final shape, and it still costs conductors and orchestras a tremendous amount of effort in playing it. There are so many moments that can go wrong; but happily there are quite a few superb versions where just about everything goes right. Here they are.
Musical Examples courtesy of Supraphon Records and Ondine Records
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This truly is an amazing symphony, isn’t it? Sibelius 5 is one of the 20th-century symphonies which kept the form not only viable but thriving over the past 100-odd years. Bernstein and the NYPO is still my favorite. Lenny didn’t futz around because he didn’t feel like he needed to, and his sympathetic, adoring interpretation is magnificent. For a piece that hardly plays or conducts itself, there are a lot of great performances out there. All the Nordic examples you cite are worthy, but Segerstam and the hometown team deliver a truly mesmerizing recording that blots out the sun and absorbs the listener completely.
Timpanist here, playing this in concert in two days, definitely taken some of the things you've mentioned to this performance David!
I once saw Paavo Berglund conduct Sibelius 5 live at a concert & his control of the orchestra was marvellous. The end of the first movement was electrifying, especially the total silence after the final note
You are an absolute joy to hear and watch your videos! Being a Timpanist for 53 years ,I hang on your every word regarding your Percussion knowledge! Thank you
The amazing 5th. What a fantastic symphony has been one of my favourites for years. Your review has really brought this music alive. Thanks for all you do for classical music and being so entertaining!! 🎶🎵🎻🎻
David, I really want to express my amazement at our very similar reactions to the Blomstedt. After being swept away by the Segerstam and promptly adding it to my Spotify playlist, I went on to the Blomstedt and took it on its own merits. I loved it, added it to the list. Then it was time to be blown away by the Ormandy (added to the list as well of course). At the end of all this, I felt in my mind the two glowing pinnacles of Segerstam and Ormandy, and wondered why I had kept the Blomstedt? I re-listened after a break, only to again find myself believing it to be one of the best. It was a trademark of his whole cycle, that natural, organic style. I think I've mentioned it before, but I stand by the Blomstedt Sibelius cycle as one of the best things you've introduced to me.
It was the Lahti and Vänska cycle that first got me into Sibelius back when I was 16 with their breathtaking nuancing and dynamic range; I hold it very close! That 5th also does absolute justice to the timpani part, especially in the coda of the 1st movement.
Agree. And the finale’s coda is also terrific where I really like the clearly heard grace notes on the timpani!
Another excellent talk. Thank you, David. That 'Iceland' 5th on Naxos, is a wonderful version, and I'm congratulating myself that I agree with you on that! And Colin Davis - LSO Philips; again a real hundinger of a 5th. I shall spend time listening to my various versions of this knockout symphony.
Thanks again for another wonderful survey. I imprinted on Karajan's digital EMI recording (on an old cassette coupled with his EMI 4th), and it still remains one of my favorites. One other nice element is that in the third movement Karajan lets the woodwind counter melody come through during the first statement of the swan-melody (the strings drown them out on DG). Excepting the sludgy recording of the 2nd, those EMI digital sessions produced one of the finest Sibelius collections ever.
The (later, as there are the mono Philharmonia ones) EMI Karajan recordings were started in 1975 or so, with 4 and 5; the digital ones were 1, 2 and 6 made in 1980/81. The DG were made in the Christ Church, where the sound tended to get swampy in the 5th and especially the 7th. The EMI were made in the Berlin Philharmonie. I understand the objections to the measured finale in the 2nd, but the reading otherwise has all of the physical thrill of the other recordings, with an unmatched grip in the first movement.
There is a great moment in a DVD of a conducting seminar that Bernstein was taking when he can't resist seizing the baton from the hapless pupil to take the orchestra through the last part of the first movement himself - ' You see they want to go faster already, but don't let them.'
There is also an interesting early performance on DVD with the LSO performing in Croydon ! ; it has plenty of the good points about early LB you speak about.
What a terrific talk David, your dissection of the final pages of the first movement were revelatory.
I agree with your description of the DVD conducting seminar by LB. I never heard Sibelius #5 until seeing how Lenny took the student orchestra through the end of the first movement. It led me to listen to LB's NYPO version and as many versions as I could sample off Amazon Music HD.
Thank you David Hurwitz for your detailed review and recommendations, I will be sampling Davis/BPO and Sagerstam/Helsinki next. That's what I love about "classical" music. I've been a fan for a half century and still discover new pieces to enjoy.
The hapless pupil was my old friend Matthew Taylor who today is a highly regarded sumphonist in his own right.
What a stunning recording Delogu‘s is! Thanks so much! I didn‘t know it. It‘s the 2nd time, I am overwhelmed by this conductor. With czech forces he made for Supraphon one of the best „Carmina burana“ I ever heard, full of clear and fresh colours and lively rhythms. It‘s absolutely great - as is his 5th Sibelius!
Glad you liked it!
I find the horns drowning out the strings, too, at the end of the 1st movement in the Czech Philharmonic recording, while the brass has too much treble (a high-pitched or shrilly sound) and a thin "tinny?" texture that deprives the sound of deep richness and majesty. My favorite recording for the final crescendo of the 1st movement is the one by Karajan and the BPO on DG released in 1965 because of the performance of the brass section. There's a richness and pulsation to it and a more moderate application of treble. The dissonance is perfectly tempered. Absolutely no distortions or aberrations. Thanks, David for another superb and masterful review.
Thanks, Dave, for the great talk. I'm in total agreement regarding Segerstam - always interesting and truly outstanding in Sibelius (for example, his recording of the violin concerto with Pekka Kuuisto is fantastic). For something different, although not perhaps among the very best, I really like Kurt Sanderling's recording of the 5th with the Berliner Sinfonie-Orchester. In fact, I love the whole cycle very much and turn to it quite frequently. I bought it on your recommendation and what a cycle it is (his En Saga is also outstanding). Different but, IMO, truly great. Thanks for the recommendation.
Kurt Sanderling's En Saga is indeed outstanding!
I saw the late great Alan Cumberland playing timpani with the London Philharmonic this particular Symphony of Sibelius and was floored with his technique !!!
Not to mention Thumper Smith in the Philharmonia!
@@john1951w Was impressed by the timpani player when I went to hear the Philharmonia in the Festival Hall, was it him in the early 1950s?
@@geoffradnor9357 No, this was before his time. I played in the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra with thumper in the late 1960s. Here's a short bio: Andy Smith has been Principal Timpanist of the Philharmonia Orchestra, London since 1972.
Over his 50-year career Andy has had the good fortune to play for Klemperer, Stokowski, Boult, Barbirolli, Muti, Maazel, Giulini, Levine, Salonen and Tippett. His playing, along with his Premier Elite timpani, have appeared on numerous albums and soundtracks along with computer games for Sony including the Harry Potter series.
Andy's musical interests started at the age of four after he received his first piano lesson. After a number of exam and competition successes in his teens he joined the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra as a pianist where he played concertos by Beethoven, Schumann and Williamson (at the time Master of the Queen's Music).
The orchestra received the first set of production pedal timpani by Rex Webb of Premier in 1964 and so began Andy's affiliation and love for the brand.
He received lessons on the oboe, harp and timpani, notably with Eric Pritchard at the BBC in London.
In the late sixties Andy went to the Royal College of Music to study piano, oboe and percussion which led him to meet Vernon Handley who offered him the timpani job with Guildford Philharmonic. The die was cast and Andy worked with the Scottish Ballet, Welsh National Opera and the Bournemouth Symphony before joining the Philharmonia.
Your comments on Bernstein remind me of a friend of mine from many years ago. He would play as a sub at a major East Coast symphony, and he basically hated conductors (to use your word, he considered almost all of them to be poseurs). I can remember two exceptions: he said Ozawa had the best pair of ears of anyone, and that Bernstein (I am paraphrasing here) knew more about music than the whole orchestra put together.
That Bernstein recording -- *whoa!* I remember being flood by the finale tempo the first time I heard it -- I didn't think that was humanly possible! For most (though not all) Sibelius, Vanska (Lahti) and Segerstam are who I usually turn to, but I always love hearing Sibelius wherever I can get him (as long as he's done justice!). Wonderful and fun review!
Yummy!!! I had the NYP great recording! In my teens! Mind boggling!
Nice overview, Dave. Luckily, I have most of these, including Segerstam. Does anyone here have any memory of hearing young Esa-Pekka Salonen doing the Sib Fifth live on public radio circa 1989 from LA, possibly at the Hollywood Bowl, and prior to his being named music director there? I remember being quite excited by how he spaced the chords in the finale. I've been fruitlessly searching for any leads or information about the performance.
For a long time I felt that the finale to Sibelius' 5th Symphony must be the best finale of all the symphonic finales ever written, and then you came along and said so in this video. So thank you, David Hurwitz!
I took your advice and checked out the Delogu recording of it. (I did manage to find it on LP, on the Supraphon label, which I had to have sent from Romania.) Just as you said, the first movement is superb, so thanks again!
I would say it is tied with the Brahms 3rd symphony finale. What do you think? Thanks.
Oh yes, finally my favourite symphony and classical piece ever!
Funnily enough it was Bernstein`s VPO recording, which drove me to Sibelius and this symphony. I randomly listened to some music I didnt`t knew and got to the 3rd movement of this symphony - my god, I was in love with it since the first bar! What an extraordinary symphony!
I agree with your picks mostly, even though in Blomstedt's recording the brass sometimes would need a bit more power in my opinion. I really love Segerstam's Ondine recording until he reaches the last two pages of the score after this huuuge climax. He speeds up to much in my opinion, Sibelius only marks it "Un pochettino stretto", so "a little, tiny bit faster", but Segerstam nearly doubles the tempo he had before. This always threw me off at the end :/
However I would like to recommend three sleeper picks:
Thomas Sondergard with the BBC National Orchestra of Wales (coupled with a good Nielsen 5th) - a wonderful, fast and powerful Live-recording (so not always fully transparent, but a really, really fantastic performance except for a little woodwind mistake at the beginning of the 2nd mvmt.). This recording is one I always return to.
Tadaaki Otaka with the Sapporo Symphony Orchestra (a slower recording but really powerful and coupled with an amazing Symphony No.4)
Enrique Batiz with the RPO - again a really powerful and emotional recording with great brass.
Two other annotations: Ormandy in fact did record the symphony two times, a mono one is found in the Ormandy-Mono-Box released a few months ago.
Regarding the timpani part of the 1st mvmts. coda: the LPO has a great short-video playlist called "timpani moments" here on youtube. The coda of the 1st mvmt of Sibelius 5th was in it, but sadly the video was deleted a year ago or such. It was a really great opportunity following the score and the timpanist at once.
Of course the Ormandy was in there! I just forget and didn't want to stop talking to go look. Should have done my homework! Thanks.
I was pleased to hear you mention how Sibelius improved the 5th symphony as evidenced by the early version recorded by Vanska and Lahti on Bis. A similar evolution is evident in the Leonidas Kavakos recordings of the Sibelius Violin Concerto with Vanska also on Bis. The original version is a directionless ramble. Sibelius really tightened up all 3 movements into the version we all know now. A wonderful improvement while allowing us to observe the process.
Agreed.
Agreed. Yet there were some beautiful ideas ditched in the process... " You have to kill your darlings" (Stephen King)
Fantastic insights as always! Thank you Dave for sharing your knowledge so generously!
Thank you for covering this symphony - also one of my favorites. I was happy to hear you describe the 1st movement coda as the most exciting one in all of symphonic music. I agree. For me, a close second is the coda of Kodaly's Peacock Variations. What do you think? Please consider a video about the best recordings of this work - there aren't many.
Super talk love this type of analysis, Elaine
Now this is how to teach music. Bravo!!
It is a delight to find someone who cares for Sibelius as much as I do, and so helpful that you bring your experience with your insight to this talk. Thank you so much!
I had the tremolo opening of the last movement going through my head repeatedly for the last few hours, so I had to go seeking a good recording or two. I have always felt, like you, that Sibelius had trouble with his endings, Perhaps it stems from the tension between the "feminine" ending natural to Finnish poetry and the demands of romantic/epic music for a strong climax.
Speaking of climaxes, are you familiar with Seiji Ozawa's early recording of the symphonies? I thought they missed the mark altogether, in particular because Ozawa "pulled" the climaxes, making me feel incomplete.
Having heard your talk, I shall listen to different performances of the 5th with fresh ears. Thank you again!
Bernstein, as usual, shows that much music is also drama, and his NYPO 5th is dramatic and musical - the 1st movement coda is balanced just right. Still good sound, too. His and Karajan's DG record are my favorites. Karajan's sounds so elemental, with such depth - I know, not analytical terms, but what I hear and feel. His later EMI (as another comment pointed out, not digital) is on the brash side.
Thank you, David!
Three great choices for top honors; as you said, they will "do you proud for many, many, many, many years" (I think you stopped at four "manys")....to which I would add "and in all likelihood, will never be improved upon." Still, recordings will keep coming, most of which will only serve to obscure the classic ones.
Today's presentation is another very effective combination of historical and musical scholarship, both overall and detailed, musical examples, and critical overview of available recordings. What I particularly enjoyed is the way in which the Segerstam recording served as the culmination of your earlier dissection of the 1st Mvt coda, since everything you described (and showed us in the score) is so brilliantly delineated as we listen (I like the Delogu, but the tymps near the end totally obliterate the string's jet-propelled Eb Major Triads, thus losing one of the crucial layers of orchestral sound).
Also interesting is the "motivational" effect of actually hearing a sample of Segerstam (thanks to the wisdom and foresight of Ondine). Any potential customer whose enthusiasm is fired up by your presentation will want to buy one or all three of your top versions, but their first choice will most likely be the one that they actually HEARD a sample from, especially since the recording is so stunningly good. LR
Thank you. Yes, Ondine is a smart label!
Magnificent sir. Bravo. A wonderful and illuminating talk about a great symphony and some great performances. I love one of the EMI Karajan's but I haven't heard the Dg one. Oh, and you even smiled when you said "Brrrrrrruckner ":P
Looking forward to discover this symphony this evening when kids will be sleeping! Thank you again for so much knowledge! So exciting to hear you.
I just didn't got the difference between micro manager and detail oriented when you talk about Bernstein.
Thanks!!!
I said it badly. What I meant was that Bernstein's interventions are not usually within the phrase, or bar, but have more to do with his shaping of big sections.
This is my favorite symphony. It's how I would like to live my life. I have the Vanska in the original version, and you are right. But it is very interesting. The Davis cycle is a little too English pastoral for me. Thank you very much for your recommendations, however. I have not heard all of them.
Greatly appreciate your “sleeper” recommendations (e.g. the Delogu Sibelius 5th). Reminds me, in a way, of another sleeper I came across, also from the Czech Philharmonic, of a Symphonie Fantastique conducted by Carlo Zecchi, where expectations were low but listening satisfaction was high. Conductors on record probably represent some form of the old 80:20 rule. It’s dominated by the BIG names, but there are so many others on the fringe who recorded only sporadically and who deserve their moment in the spotlight. Perhaps you might consider doing a video on some artists represented in your collection that rarely recorded by deserve recognition.
Thank you, gentlemen, for mentioning the Delogu/Czech Phil recording. I heard it live in the Rudolfinum, it was my first encounter with Sibelius and a truly unforgettable experience. Delogu was coming regularly to Prague in those years (late 70s and early 80s) and often the concerts were great - I vividly remember the Pictures, Brahms’ second pico with Mr Ohlson, Prokofiev’s R&J, Stravinsky’s Card game, Some Hindemith, and above all Verdi’s Quattro pezzi sacri (that Supraphon never released on CD, which I think is downright criminal). His conducting style was very unique and fascinating to watch (for me at least, not sure about the orchestra). He died a few years ago, in his mid 80s. What an underrated conductor!
The young Salonen also did a worth considering 5th with the Philharmonia, still my favorite one. Have to listen Segerstam.
Your comments about Bernstein's fidelity to the score and later, not, are absolutely true, in my experience. I grew up in NY and practically lived at Carnegie Hall listening to him and the NYP. At one of those concerts, I heard the Nielsen 5th for the first time (I did not know at the time of the existence either of that symphony or of Nielsen; I was 18, so I'll use that as an excuse). Unforgettable.
Going back and listening to the recordings he made at that time. more often than not, what you say is true. But later .... Consider the Enigma Variations he did with the BBC Orchestra, especially Nimrod. It's a factor of 3 slower than Elgar's metronome marking and also Elgar's tempo in his own recording (Elgar was faithful to his own score :-). Insane. There are many other examples, e.g., the huge ritard he takes at the end of the Tchaikovsky 5th, which Tchaikovsky did not ask for and in my opinion is pretty tasteless.
But when he was good, he was really good. Middle period Stravinsky (the neo-classical works such as the extraordinary Symphony of Psalms)? Marvelous. He didn't impose himself on those pristine works and the results are wonderful.
Hey Dave thanks again for a magnificent traversal…thanks to your Karajan digital recommendation, I dug out my old EMI LP from the 80s and I realise that the 4th and 5th are each on a side of 1LP…the 4th lasting over 38 minutes, the 5th over 32 minutes and by far the longest playing LP record I have come across…
Davis/Boston has been my go to for years! I'm just now listening to that old warhorse Gibson/LSO and it's fantastic. Much better than I remembered it.
On one of my thrift shop LP and CD safaris, I picked up a promotional CD that was put out by the City of Helsinki called "Greetings From Helsinki". It's in a bright blue cardboard packaging with shiny gold lettering and full of beautiful photos of the city & surrounding areas. What attracted me the most about it was several Sibelius works that I had never heard before: "The Diamond on the March Snow" Op. 36/6, "Did I Just Dream?" Op. 37/4, "Swim, Duck, Swim," and "The Song of the Cross Spider". Also on the disc are the "Karelia Suite" Op.11, "Pohjola's Daughter" Op. 49, and the "Symphony No.5".
I grew up listening to a recording of the 5th Symphony by the Boston Symphony Orchestra that my father had made of a syndicated broadcast in 1962 or 63. When I was in high school, I purchased a DGG "Tulip" copy of Karajan's interpretation. Along the way, I added Blomstedt's CD on London (with the 4th) to my collection. Seeing how the 5th is one of my favorite pieces of music, I just had to listen to the version that was on the Helsinki promotional CD, if only to hear how the "hometown band" would play it. It quickly became a favorite. Now, I have not paid much attention to who is who among contemporary European conductors, so I would not have been able to tell you who the conductor of The Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra was but after watching your video this morning, I pulled it out and took a look. It was Segerstam and the CD jacket credits Ondine, Inc. for the recording.
Yay!
I appreciated your discussion of the differences between Karajan's late EMI 5th and the iconic DG performance. I agree completely, because there's a rough-edged wildness--almost a savagery--about the EMI 5th (and the 4th as well, which is equally stunning) that seems so uncharacteristic of Karajan but man I'm glad he did them. Unfortunately the EMI #2 he did around the same time takes out 50 feet of guardrail before flying over the top and plunging down into the abyss in the finale...
For my money Karajan on DGG is the best and most convincing at managing the big 'sunrise' moment in the first movement. It's something to do with the mystery he creates before it, combined with the glowing acoustic of the Jesus Christus Kirche.
A distant fluttering and rumbling, and then Whammo!
I love these choices, Dave. Even if the rest of the Vänskä/Lahti performance were mediocre (and it certainly isn't), I'd keep it for one of the moments you talk about here: the fff timpani volley at the beginning of the first movement coda. It's astonishing! --Matty
I just bought the Segerstam, and am really enjoying them. Thanks for the recommendation!
Personally, I like power, romance and a lovely fat string section. Karajan DG for me! I like Ormandy too, but in the final pages of the last movement Karajan's basses sound like bombers! That gets me every time. Segerstam is fabulous in many ways, but the orchestra don't have the cojones of great orchestra imo. Lenny? Yes, love the power and clarity. Also, the Berlin horns sound much better than Boston and New York in the final movement and Karajan beats everybody else in the key transitions. Mind you, Karajan DG was the recording that 'imprinted' me so I could well be biased. But I'm happy with that. Thanks again for a lovely talk!
Illuminating. Thank you. When I bought my first CD of that work (Bernstein NYPO), I followed a review that praised the conductor's management of the end of the 1st movement. But had no real ideal of the pitfalls you mention. Just bought the Delogu. Did find it on the Supraphon website. Cannot wait to listen.
Hey, Dave. I'm glad you finally got to the 5th, which is my favorite Sibelius symphony. :) Bernstein/NYP is my favorite, although Davis/BSO and Barbirolli/Halle (Vanguard/Pye, not EMI) are not too far behind. I will be sure to check out Segerstam as well, though.
Excellent as usual, David.
Great stuff, Dave. I too am a big fan of Herbie's last S5 on EMI with the Berlin Phil. It's the one to have. One minor correction if i may - it was recorded in September / October of 1976 in the Philharmonie which makes it analogue - the EMI S1 S2 and S6 are all digital. Thanks for the BBBRRRUUUCCCKKKNNNEEERRR too which always makes my day, Best wishes, B
Yes, thanks. That has already been mentioned by you eagle-eyed viewers, for which I am grateful. The analogue sonics are probably why it sounds better than the (early) digitals.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Dave, if i may, can I please ask that you turn your attention to Berlioz's Requiem one day? What fun that would be! Best wishes, B
I was still in record retail when the Karajan EMI remakes came out. All I remember is that they were basically ignored. I'm not even sure if I heard the Fifth at that time. But a few years ago I did and WOW---I really like all the attention you give to the First Movement coda, too often overlooked in favor of the finale. An incredible passage and I think Karajan really nails it in that EMI one. Another favorite for me is Maazel with the Vienna Phil---a magnificent rendition. I like all the others you bring up, but will have to seek out the Delogu
I own the Blomstedt SF, Davis Boston, Maazel Vienna, and Segerstam Helsinki cycles and love them all but find their 5th's to be the ones that don't stand out as much with the exception of Maazel's. I don't know if it's technically correct but that one is special with unique qualities in its color and balance. The string tremolos sound like spooky icy winds and the accents at the end of the first movement sound like rejoicing bells. I also highly enjoy Bernstein with NY's and agree it's bold and exciting. I think any of these are great choices though.
Gaetono Delogu was a great conductor indeed! I have collected lots with him, and he is very insightful.
Thanks, as always for your incisive analysis and commentary. I've been away in the forests of Maine for several weeks, without WiFi and the ability to comment on your splendid reviews. As one commentator put it, you have really hit your stride over the past three months. Among the reviews I tuned into on my tablet, but was unable to send a comment, I particularly enjoyed the ones about the "boxes still available," the Mahler and Bruckner cycles and partial cycles, and of course the Haydn Symphony Crusade. But above all, I was struck by your analysis of the quantity of viewers for certain composers and works--the "top 50." I'm disconcerted that so few tune into the Haydn Symphony talks, and I wonder why interest in Mahler and Bruckner so outstrip interest in, say, Schumann, Brahms, Richard Strauss, or Vaughan Williams (to name just a few). Also there were no chamber music reviews in the "Top 50." My recommendation would be to do more of them, more choral works (I can't recall that you have done a "best and worst recordings" of the Missa Solemnis). And how about some Baroque repertoire: Handel's Opus 6, or a repertoire talk on Handel's "Six Greatest English Odes and Oratorios." But make no mistake, your U-Tube talks are for the ages.
Oh don't worry. I'll get there. And welcome back. We missed you!
@@DavesClassicalGuide By the way, my suggestions for future "gnarly symphonists" would be Tubin and Robert Simpson. Strangely similar in a lot of ways. And very gnarly.
Thanks David, one of my favourite symphonies. And yes, how you highlighted the ending of the first movement. Soooo difficult to pull off successfully. I heard it live a few times and it's positively earth moving. Thanks I will get the Helsinki version, dunno, just sounds right to be done by the local band. Great review, as is all your reviews.
You got funny when u started talking about Bernstein 😂😂😂. The sky is not bleu🤪. Jk. That timpani! I've never heard it like that🤯 with the czeck philharmonic. (Trumpet player here by the way). You're helping me understand why I like sibelius so much. Thank u🙏
Very nice review, as always! This was my entry point to the world of Sibelius, having gotten the Davis/Boston box set in university when it was first released on Philips. The 5th still has a special place for me, although I appreciate many of the other symphonies equally now. While I don't disagree with any of your recommendations, I will add that the Barbiroli/Halle from 57 on PYE/Dutton has a special something that I find unique. I'm sure it's partly due to the unpolished quality of the playing which adds a primal quality to the music but maybe also because of their use of 'silver band' instruments, which seems unique. The build up the the major chord at the end of the finale with the cascading dissonances seems almost like that chord is being 'birthed', and Barbirolli's judging of those slashing closing chords is the most organic and inevitable version I know of. I know others have mentioned that HvK's 5th from 76/Berlin is analog, but it's interesting to note that there are 2 prior versions on EMI (53/Philharmonia & 60/Philharmonia) as well as the 65/Berlin on DG... So, 4 studio versions: 1 50's, 2 60's & 1 70's. I know he was a recording fiend, but that's a lot of 5ths! Also strange that the 53/Philharmonia and 60/Philharmonia recordings are both marked 'mono'! Was EMI still recording in mono in 60???
I own the 1960 EMI Karajan recording with the Philharmonia (coupled with Symphony No. 2, in the EMI series "The Karajan Collection"), which is marked Stereo. As far as I know only his 1953 recording is mono.
There also exists a fifth Karajan recording, a live recording with the Berlin Philharmonic (1957), i got it coupled with Beethoven's piano concerto No. 3 with Glenn Gould. The sound is not the best (coughs, etc.), but it is ok.
Excellent, excellent synopsis, David. Sibelius’s 5th is probably my favorite Classical work of the entire repertoire. I think you should’ve included Maazel/Vienna. But I agree with your choices as well. Coincidentally, earlier I heard Bernstein/NYP’s 7th. It wasn’t terrible, but I didn’t much care for it. I’d love to hear you do the 7th too.
I think the NYP 7th is one of the best.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I’ll have to hear it again. My favorite is Berglund/Bournemouth.
The violin music is crazy hard. At the Coda in the first movement, Sibelius wants the violins to play "Sul G" -- on the G String. At that speed, you have to shift up and down between 4th and 5th positions and keep up with the tempo. Then at letter L in the last movement, the violins have double-stops played with a ricochet bowing, but the firsts and seconds are playing off each other, they're not playing together. Does this make sense? Probably not! I'm trying to learn the second violin part for a community orchestra, but I think it's beyond my limited technique. I wonder if professional violinists find the music to be difficult.
They do. The Sibelius 5th is notorious. String players hate it. When they aren't doing the stuff you just described, it's mostly tremolos.
There's no doubt that the final and definitive version of the 5th was JS's last word. Though since Vänska/Lahti recorded the 1st version, it gave me so many insights into the whole compositional process. Where the 1st version revels in the raw and terrifying sounds of nature (particularly in the finale), the final published version revels in formal perfection.
I agree that he got there in the end in finding a tight efficient form for this symphony yet there were some rich ideas excised in getting there.
A wonderful review! I want to through one in the mix, though the sound is quite bad. It's a live Koussevitzky with the BSO, available on TH-cam (I don't think on CD, yet). The colors, the musical conception and terrific. Yes you can say this or that about the woodwind tone, but they put the piece across in a really musical way.
Damn it man!!! You got me listening to stuff I never heard before 🤬
I’d love to hear Honeck and Pittsburgh do Sibelius 5 and 2…
Well, that later recording of Karajan on EMI I had not heard yet!!
Here's another sleeper. Ole Schmidt with the Royal Phil. coupled on Alto with the Mackerras Sibelius 2nd with the same orchestra. It's fast and exciting (almost as fast as the Maazel VPO recording).
My heart will always be tied to the Fourth. But I like a good Fifth. How many times, however, have I been betrayed by a conductor and orchestra who horribly screwed up the timing in the final bars! I heard Dausgaard perform it in Toronto (along with all the other symphonies in sequence), and he got it exactly right.
I don't think that Sibelius "didn't know" how to end symphonies. He was just allergic to doing it the same old way. He always wanted to surprise his audience at the end, give it a twist. Some of these twists are perfect, others not quite.
I have played the timpani part for this Symphony and had to determine the spacing of the very last 2 strokes on the timpani drums which were written as like a flam .Very SCARY!!!
And, of course, there's always the possibility that the tympani "flams" will sound like sloppy ensemble
on the part of the tympanist, conductor, or both. Nobody wants that!
Davis/Boston all the way! I get chills at that first moment breakthrough. Every. Time.
And the next big climax..in B Major, right before the accelerando into the Scherzo, is astoundingly good. The gorgeous Major 7th chords in the trombones are chill/thrill-inducing. LR
I was fairly surprised that the Colin Davis recording you referred seems to be fairly popular: at least the finale seems to have reached 7.5 milion listenings on Spotify... 😮
My main yardstick is who can produce the most preposterously gorgeous final climax - the 30 seconds or so before the silence-punctuated final chords. And for those 30 seconds, the champ is Lenny/Sony. Segerstam and Davis/Boston are just too fast in those moments. (Segerstam seems to think there's an accelerando there??) Ormandy and Blomstedt also make a glorious noise.
Actually, at that very point in the score (seven measures before the first of the widely-spaced chords) the direction is "Un pochettino stretto" which does indeed mean a slight speeding up.
@@shirtlesskarson5088 Thank you! Appreciate that knowledge. I still think Segerstam is more like "molto stretto" but must profess bias as someone who apparently disagrees with Sibelius' own wishes. Mea culpa.
Newbie here, and 2 yrs late, but I just listened to the Segerstam after watching David’s tutorial. The Segerstam conception of the work is nearly ideal…UNTIL what should be the noble short march just before the final four chords. Way too fast. A shocking misfit to what comes immediately before and after, and much more than “a little faster” to my mind.
I really enjoyed this one! I was surprised how many of these I already owned and added the Delogu and Segerstram after watching. When I get in a mood to hear the Sibelius 5th these are the ones I cycle through along with the Maazel/Vienna recording and a live Barbirolli/Halle that I got on a disc with his Royal Phil 2nd.
After watching this video I pulled up my copy of Ashkenazy with the Philharmonia Orchestra and a performance on a BBC Music Magazine cover disc with Thomas Søndergård conducting the BBC National Orchestra of Wales. Now I can't unhear the timpani getting buffeted around in the waves of the other instruments as though they're drowning in sound. Looks like I'm going to be firing one of these discs in favor of the Segerstam series.
The Fifth and Fourth in Karajan’s later EMI recordings are analogue recordings.
No kidding? Thanks!
@@DavesClassicalGuide - yep. Check the back of the CD sleeve. It shows recording dates from 1976 and a digital remastering from 2014. Same is true for the En Saga, Swan, Finlandia and Tapiola - all analog from 1976. I looked up the EMI Studio disc of 4&5 on Discogs and the CD label sports an ADD SPARS code.
1 and 6 on EMI are digital from that period.
@@markstenroos6732 Yes, the tone poems I was sure of.
You can’t hear the violin arpeggios at all in the climax bars of that Czech Phil recording. But I get it: you can definitely hear the timpani and brass.
I hear them. They aren't supposed to be audible as such because the contrary motion "cancels" out the individual lines, but you can tell that the harmony is 'moving."
I was intrigued to hear the recording by Osma Vanska of the 1915 original version of the 5th, to compare with the final one (he apparently revised it a second time in between, but that one isn't recorded). I was struck how the final taffy-pull coda was there in the original version, except with strings trembling throughout. So he removed them without altering the pacing.
The 5th is among only 3 revised symphonies I know of that are recorded to compare: Davies did the first 1874 version of Bruckner's 4th, which reveals just why it bombed and how enormous was the revamp of the 3rd and 4th movements to arrive at the version that clicked with the public (to the horror of anti-Wagnerian Hanslick).
And of course the only official multiple version symphony: Prokofiev's 4th, 1930 and the 1944 final one where he peeled away some of the dissonances (he was revving up to do his first full out one in the form, the 5th) but added in much more polished finishing touches, but couldn't abandon the earlier one so we get the bis designation.
There are several others, including the Mahler 1st, everything by Bruckner (Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 6), Copland's 1st and 3rd, Vaughan Williams A London Symphony, Haydn's "Clock" Symphony, Mozart's 40th, Schumann's 1st and 4th, Rimsky-Korsakov's "Antar"...the list goes on and on.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Though the Mahler is more the removal of one movement rather than a revamp. Are there recordings of the Copland, Vaughan Williams, Haydn, Mozart etc done for comparison?
Btw I once had an old recording of one of the later Wagnerized versions of Bruckner's 3rd--replaced it with a CD of the first version. You might want to do a show on the best available recordings of the versions that are available (info not always available if just diving into ordering online) so people who want to hear them can do so (I get the impression that most current recordings trend towards the earliest published versions.
@@jamesdownard1510 (1) Re Mahler: you are wrong. It was a total "revamp." (2) I have no idea what you mean by "done for comparison." There are recordings of the various versions I list. Finally, (3) Please watch my Bruckner videos before making suggestions about making Bruckner videos! Thanks.
David, did you read Jim Hepokoski's brilliant book on the 5th, where explains Sibelius's revolutionary utilization of rotational form? I wouldn't be surprised if you read the book.
Yes, and I have no idea what he's talking about!
@@DavesClassicalGuide It's the sort of book you don't read....you read AT.
Vänska is probably my overall favourite (for the totality), if only for playing the last bars of the Finale in strict tempo (which makes it clear that the "Swan theme" lies inaudibly underneath), AND the mentioned three fff timpani notes launching the coda of the first movement, probably one of the "rightest" interpretations of that particular bar!
Are you referring to the Lahti Orchestra or Minnesota Orchestra version
@@frankgyure3154 Lahti. Agree 100% with Dave about the Minnesota version's inferiority.
A question about the closing passages of that first movement; I imprinted with the DG Karajan, which really makes a big deal of highlighting the repeated drone notes in the horns (sorry to imprecise, but I think right before the piu presto marking), and that's the only way it sounds right to me. Segerstam's recording does the same, but in most other performances, including those previous by Karajan, the horns are more recessed, I suppose to give prominence to the trumpet's melody line. Does the score give any indication as to what the balance between horn and trumpet should be, or is this just a matter of taste and microphone placement?
It's a taste thing, but as you say, they are accompaniment and ought to back off a bit. More significant in my view is that fact that Karajan drowns out the strings a bit too early.
Yes, Segerstam's recording is really good, despite the fact that he doesn't always do what the composer wants. I wish he didn't have the basses play an octave lower than written in spots. Yes, it's impressive, but for me, it's unnecessary and just adding too much sauce on an already great steak that Sibelius cooked. And, at the end, when the tempo changes to "un pochettino stretto" (A little faster), it's supposed to push forward in a subliminal, subconscious way, enhancing the mood a little bit. With Segerstam, that tempo change is double speed! Nothing "un pochettino" about it. Too blunt for me, and, I believe, Sibelius. Admittedly, I'm not a critic and maybe I'm nitpicking a little bit. But I'm curious if any fan of this symphony has noticed these 'oddities' in this otherwise great recording.
I've noticed, and you make legitimate points, with one proviso: no one "always" does "what the composer wants." Ever. That goes without saying. You may not like some of the things that Segerstam does, and that's fine, but you have no basis to assume that Sibelius would not have approved, because we know for a fact that he approved of many performances in his lifetime that disregarded his instructions far more extensively than Segerstam ever does. It is a big mistake to assume that the composer always knows best or isn't interested in what others bring to the music just because the printed page has it one way. Again, we know that just the opposite is often true. Schoenberg praised the Juilliard Quartet for playing his music in way he had never imagined it could be done. Messiaen never met a performance he didn't like (at least publicly). The key, for me anyway, is trying to understand how much license the interpreter has in any given repertoire, and then what weight to give the inevitable personal decisions that each performance entails. I think you exaggerate the importance of the two issues you raise, but that's your prerogative.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you David for your pointed, yet polite criticism of my post. In the back of my mind, I may have a subtle bias for the composer, since I'm one myself. But I'm aware that there are multiple ways to perform a well known piece like Sibelius #5. I just found myself raising an eyebrow at Segerstam's version in spots here and there. My cross to bare. ☺️
PERSNICKETY-ISM ALERT:^^ Strictly speaking, the string figuration in the Finale does NOT consist of tremolo, but rather of measured 16th notes. With the tempo being sufficiently brisk, it may sound like tremolo, but is not (i personally have played both the 1st violin part and viola part, albeit in different continents and separated by many years, so obviously have seen the notation first hand). True tremolo would be, of course, the unmeasured as-fast-as-possible (within limits) of the numerous string accompanimental figures in the Bruckner symphonies...
The "Bruckner"-type is tiring in elongated passages but technically not difficult, and the conductor may or may not specifically ask for different bow speeds for colouristic effect, whereas the "Sibelius 5"-type demands exact precision and uniformity of bow movement / placement.
Presumably Dr. Dave knows all that, but string players can be pedantic too...^^
Thank you. Came to comments to post this in case no one else did. It may be persnickety but it’s rather a big difference in technique and the only reason why the finale opening can cleanly launch the swan theme in the way it does.
A percussionist would have a fit if a conductor read a similar marking from their part and called it a tremolo in rehearsal. :) Or just nod knowingly and discuss the conductor’s qualifications to the section during the break.
I am not convinced by Segerstams interpretation....accousticly very good but it somehow lacks the depth that to me sibelius has tonhave. Paavo Berglunds interpretation with the Helsinki symphony orchestra has both the sound and the depth i look for in interpretations. It's my personal opinion.
The latest release of Simon Rattle with the Berlin philharmonic is also very good i believe.
Dave, Ormandy did record it in mono; and you covered it in the box. I like the stereo one, but prefer his mono one.
Yes, I did. Good grief!
@@DavesClassicalGuide BTW, I'm going to track down the Delogu rendition. Perhaps it's because they were behind the Iron Curtain, but they seem to have had a lot of guest conductors recording stuff we don't see many reviews of: the Vajnar Shostakovich Symphonies, the Ladislav Slovak Prokofiev Fifth, etc. Maybe they're duds, but they're always tempting as cheap downloads on Amazon.
I have always thought early Rattle and the Philharmonia on EMI was outstanding. An exception that confirms what a pathetic second rate praised weirdo he became.
I agree. One of the great Sibelius 5ths and far superior to his CBSO remake, to say nothing about what he did in Berlin! My other favorite and currently the one I listen to most often is Vanska/Lahti. His handling of the finale’s coda is worth it alone.
I agree with the first part of your comment.
semi-grudgingly, i must admit, after listening to this critique, that i sought out what youtube had on the 5th. very first one was l.b. in vienna. i could see your finger pointing at me and you saying: NO. i scrolled down and damn if l.b. 5th with the nyp was there. as long as i don't have to watch him conduct, i should listen to his recordings more often. it was superb, though i did not hear the tympani (my fave instruement) t the end of the first movement, though i did at the end of the 3rd movement
One recorded performnce that does not kill the momentum at the very end is Koussevitzky/Boston; he doesn't put in long silences between the chords. (And BTW, DH, would you call any statement of preference for the 1st version of the S5 "misinformation"?)
No, I would call it the God's honest TRUTH.
I have a questions for you David - as a percussionist. In the finale of Karajan's 60s recording at about 3'40" in, you can clearly hear three sharp notes on wooden sticks, very atmospheric and evocative of birds imo. I don't remember hearing these on other recordings. Did Karajan insert them or are they part of an earlier score? Or, are they just 'buried' in other versions?
Scores are easy to come by. Why not have a look for yourself?
@@DavesClassicalGuide Never been any good at reading music unfortunately. And getting too old to learn. But do you have an opinion on the matter? This is NOT a trick question or anything like that!
@@stuartclarke4683 I know it's not a trick question--I appreciate that, but I don't have a moment right now to give you an answer.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Fair enough!
Blomstedt has the best final tympani strokes… at least in how I think those anticipatory (grace notey) strokes should sound… so difficult to pull off.
Vic Firth! RIP
It was nice to hear a reference to Gaetano Delogu. He was music director at the Denver Symphony in the mid 80s (and earlier), so I heard him fairly regularly. He did a good job with a second tier orchestra and the concerts were enjoyable. The hall sucks, however, and still does.
Yes, I saw him do a very good Mahler 1st there about that time.
@@DavesClassicalGuide The last performance I saw under his direction was Das Lied von der Erde. They did a creditable performance.
However impressive the culmination of the first movement/scherzo of the Fifth is, I would think the finale of the 7th is his greatest.
Except it doesn't have a finale. It's in one movement
@@DavesClassicalGuide OK: to use your words, "the greatest ending."
What is it with this male fetish of categorization of endings? The ending of 5's first movement, as made out here by David, is extraordinary. The ending of the 7th is that of its particular argument. The 4th's ending seems right to me for what its music is. The 6th's has that wonderful dropping out of violins until only one finishes. The 1st's seems to disappear into a black hole. Each is what it is -not serial but discrete. I can't see any real point in ranking them.
david have you heard the song "since yesterday" by strawberry switchblade? its based off this and is an absolute tune and your opinion on it would make me giggle
xoxoxox
I have feeling a lot of things make you giggle, and yes, I've heard it.
@@DavesClassicalGuide DONT YOU LIKE IT xoxoxox
@@DavesClassicalGuide
either way i love this symphony and i suppose thanks to you most of sibelius's symphonies of late so thanks im not easily pleased lol
By far my favourite is the original version 5th with Sinfonia Lahti conducted by Osmo Vänskä (26:01). After hearing this, I can't stand Sibelius's final version, which I find rather too affected and artificial. When I visited Helsinki back in 2004, I personally asked Leif Segerstam if he'd like to conduct the original 5th; his answer was a flat "No". He sourly added that he wasn't Vänskä. I realised I had posed the wrong question.
I think the original version is terrible compared to the final version.
The ending of the 1st movement in the "original" version is clearly just an emergency solution to meet the deadline.@@DavesClassicalGuide
I can’t listen to the slow movement of this symphony any more. The insistent C sharp is like torture, and I can’t get over it.
Get help.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Haha
How is Davis' LSO Live Sibelius series? Especially the 5th?
You can find my reviews of the entire (variable) cycle on ClassicsToday.com.
An oy vey addendum: I had no idea there was an original version of this symphony or a recording thereof. No one tell the Bruckner Red Book folks!
Finnish musicologist Erik Twastajerna [spelling-?], in his Cambridge University Press guide to the Johnny Sib. 5, goes into considerable detail concerning the origins of the 5th, which of course in its original version was somewhat rushed in composition so as to be ready to perform for Sib's 50th birthday celebrations [December 8th, 1915]. Since JCS was on record as acknowledging, "I am a slave to my themes, and i submit to their demands", it is not that surprising to learn the 5th exists in the "embryonic" 1915 form, with the 1916 intermediary stage lost altogether, and it is intriguing to realize how elements of a single work, a successor to the 4th symphony, very gradually coalesced into no less than 4 distinct pieces---> Symphonies 5, 6, 7, and Tapiola. A fascinating process of musical creation and evolution...
Will you ever do a best recording of En Saga?
Probably.
I too find Segerstamms the greatest.
“Done at the Musikverain , very dry acoustics”. Have to disagree Musikverain is one of the worlds best acoustics, you might not like his late interpretation… On the other hand if you want an example of bad acoustics it would be Avery Fisher where probably his Ny Phil version was done.
Why do you say silly things like that? This isn't a competition. Everyone knows that Fischer had horrible acoustics. The Musikverein, with an audience, has notably dry acoustics and the recordings are the evidence. What on earth is there to take exception to?