Repertoire: The BEST and WORST Bruckner Eighth Symphonies
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ก.พ. 2021
- Bruckner's epic Eighth Symphony exists in "only" two main versions: the lousy 1887 original, and the 1890 revision, which is an undeniable masterpiece. This latter version also comes in two editions, Haas and Nowak, but the differences between them are not significant however much controversy they have caused. In this video I survey the best (and the worst) recordings of the 1890 definitive edition, offering a wide selection of superior interpretations from which you can choose.
Musical Examples courtesy of Naxos and Profil Recordings. - เพลง
I love this guy’s style of covering a pretty esoteric subject - Versions and performances of the Bruckner 8th symphony - like he’s reviewing local hamburger joints. Excellent.
This absolutely made my day. Never thought of Karajan's 8th as White Castle, but so it goes!
This talk made me realize (once again) how blessed we are to live in these times.
So so many great recordings of our beloved works available!
One of my neighbour is a college student, who was getting a very loud lovey-dovey chat with her boyfriend out in the hall since it's Valentine 's Day and they think they own the floor. I cheered them with Karajan's 1988 Bruckner Eighth. Listening to their willowy conversation getting crushed by the brass chorale of the Finale sure is something satisfying =))
How sad!
@@nightjaronthegate My bad. I fixed it.
I’d have hit them with something non-tonal but, yeah! Big brass kicks a$$!
My friend in college used to do the same with the "Ego sum abbas" part to Carmina Burana...the digital Robert Shaw/Atlanta Sym. recording. He'd obliterate whatever noise was happening with that badass percussion passage!
@@phamthanh4785 Fabulous story 🤣🤣
I admit to exclaiming "Yes!" and giving a hearty thumbs-up when you displayed the Karajan VPO recording. I adore it and consider it one of the best things in my collection. I particularly love Karajan's unusually slow performance of the Scherzo, which enhances its tension and humor. The longer silences that result are irresistibly suspenseful.
Are you THE Jack Dahlquist that I knew in Cincinnati?
If so, howdy.
@@marknewkirk4322 Well well! I am indeed, Mark. Howdy back at you!
Update: Since I originally posted this I have listened to ( and seen) the NDR Klassic video of the Wand/NDR live Lubeck Cathedral performance and it has become my new favorite. Thanks again David for this video!
YAAAAYYYYY!!!!!! I have been waiting for this one . Many thanks. I must admit my favorite remains the old Furtwangler one. The Karajan/ Vienna is awesome, and I have read that he said "I don't know who conducted that but it wasn't me ' as though he was "channeling". I really like the Maazel as well. I don't remember the Wand but I have the Berlin recording and I will listen again. Interestingly enough the most moving finale coda for me is in the Boulez/Vienna recording which is otherwise good but not one of my favorites. P.S. just I found the finale of the Suitner Bruckner 8th on TH-cam! Extraordinary, magical, flowing and consistently deeply moving . Thanks for the tip, and the many choices to explore.
Hilarious!!!! You had me laughing out loud. I watched this right after your take on the 9th. I am going to check out the Suitner and Janowski. My very first experience was with Szell while riding through the Sierra Madre mountains in Michoacan. Since then I've heard many versions. Maazel and Giulini had me leaping about. My ultimate test. Thank you Mr David Hurwitz for your insights and the fun. Jim from Mexico
Dear Mr Hurwitz, being the first conductor to have premiered Haas' Version 1887/1890 in Italy in 2013 (and filming it twice), I want to thank you heartfelty for the words upon Karajan/VPO version. It was in my opinion the peak of his discographic career and having some 80 versions of this symphony (which for me remains the top monument of the symphonic repertoire ever), I would certainly say that for the care of details and sound and overall feeling and understanding of a score I take the pride to say I know quite well indeed , it is the ultimate Bruckner 8th. I relish the tape of 28th February 1989 Carnegie Hall. It must have been an unforgettable moment and alas I was not there. My first Bruckner 8th Live was in Musikverein Vienna in 2001 with VPO and Mehta (alas Nowak's...) and the orchestra was absolutely glorious. Conducting was quite far from that but who cares: Karajan's spirit is still embodied in the VPO when they play this Music.
Bravo, mate!
I was there, at that concert - Carnegie Hall 1989, Karajan/Vienna Bruckner 8. It was the concert of my life and one of its great experiences. Because the serious and even grim aspects of the music were realized as never before - not only the triumph - it was not simply "enjoyable" nor happy, etc. It was one of the most serious occasions I had experienced outside of a church. But I don't think there are words to describe what it was.
Perfect for Valentine's day..Bruckner lol
It sure is!
This video is my introduction to Bruckner's symphonies, and your comments are very helpful. I am familiar with and attracted to some of his choral pieces, so this is new territory to nearly 60 years of informed listening, so exciting new territory. I have Wand's Brahms symphonies, that I love. Thanks!
Great video, Dave, thank you. I was eagerly awaiting this one! I broadly agree with your picks, although I must say I have a soft spot for the very old Jochum-Hamburg on DG (despite the iffy sound and scruffy postwar orchestra), and the Boulez-Vienna in St. Florian. I imprinted on the Karajan-Vienna when I was a teenager, and I was blown away by the Suitner when I bought it, after reading your review on ClassicsToday.
I am glad I discovered your videos, Dave. They are both entertaining and informative. A personal favorite Bruckner 8 for me is Boulez.
Welcome! The Boulez is discussed in the comments section. We all seem to agree that Boulez is excellent for various reasons.
My first exposure to Bruckner of any kind was a live recording by Lovro Matacic and the NHK Symphony that I heard over the radio. It held me so powerfully I had to stop my car and wait to hear what the piece was. That was back in the 1980's, and I've so imprinted on that performance that I have a hard time being objective about the others. Very interested to listen to your top 5 someday. Thank you for this video.
I just found you and I am stunned!! I will follow you with everything you do. I was a music critic in a small market but heard some great international artists (1990-2000). Memory may fail, but I recall hearing Solti, Chicago do 8th, Carnegie, early 70s. Had a subscription to all they did there for a few years.
Welcome aboard!
I so agree about the Maazel, I picked it up for 5 bucks years ago at a media play store. Listening in the car it blew me away. I think Jochums take on the 8th was that he took the first 2 movements faster and lighter than most. Also he I think tried to treat the scherzo as more a true classical scherzo, with a faster tempo for the outer sections. This tended to rob the music of its granduer and inevitable feeling. I always feel, the coda of the finale is the key, if that's not right, the whole journey no matter how good, is let down. Barenboim like Furtwangler always ruined it by accelerating to fast through the end. Good video !
Paul G
I will look for the Suitner for sure. My favorites have always been the Celibidache/Munich on EMI and the Wand live in Lubeck Cathedral. You’ve(as always) given food for thought and “new” performances to check out. I’ve heard this symphony live at least 4-5 times with conductors such as Tennstedt, Skrowaczewski, Mehta...I always come back to the Celibidache. It’s not just the broadness of the interpretation, but the impeccable balances and most of all the spirituality that permeates his approach from start to finish. I’d also just mention the Barenboim/Chicago on DG, which is a very good interpretation but it’s the sheer quality of the playing by the CSO that is so stunning.
The Eight, Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, and Monteverdi's Vespers are amongst my lifetime top 10.
Fabio Luisi deserves a listen - the horns are magnificent.
BUT - did anyone find Suitner available for streaming? I found the 4th and it is AMAZING. Yes, I know the difference between lowercase and uppercase. Now you bet I want Suitner's Eight.
Thank you for an interesting talk. I love Bruckner's music but all the scholarship gives me hives! You manage to cut through it and make it simple. Just a few ideas for future consideration:
Roussel box on Erato
Pretre Icon box
Poulenc box on Erato
Martinon Late Years box
I've been exploring the 64 cd Cluytens box...a real winner.
Best wishes!
Hi Dave. Just discovered your TH-cam channel a couple of days ago when I watched this segment. I also saw the Skrowaczewski 8th performance with the Baltimore (1980 +/-). Don't remember the tamtam but recall that I thought that the maestro might elevate above the podium at one point during the 3rd movement as his widely open arms moved rather bird-like. The '87 movement 1 coda is so bumbling. I couldn't stop laughing. Keep it coming.
Oh thank you Dave for this review! I know ive been pestering you for Bruckner 8th lately. Finally I'll leave you alone for some rime! I would like to add one to your recommendation: Solti with Chicago Symphony Orchestra.
Bro, I love your channel. So glad I discovered and that you give Rögner some time in these Bruckner videos.
Glad you like them!
@@DavesClassicalGuide A true gem among classical music channels. As a layman with an abiding interest in Bruckner and Mahler, this has been amazing. What did you think of Benjamin Zander’s recent rendition of the 8th with the Boston Symphony?
It’s odd, because I think I understand what the tempo for the finale is *supposed* to be according to Bruckner, and Zander’s explanation was great, but I like the fast interpretations by the likes of Rögner much better. No accounting for my taste, I suppose!
Something I particularly like about Wand's version is that he does a crescendo in the penultimate chord of the Scherzo's main theme (Ab minor with 9th). It sounds great!
So happy Maestro Celi made the list! I watched the live recording available on youtube. That finale march, with the timpani, is COLLOSAL! I was afraid you didnt include him because (if im not mistaken) you rarely mentioned him. Thanks for the video David. Certainly will look for the other 9 on the list.
Sure thing, but it's not "Maestro Celi." It's "Wacko Celi!"
Thanks for reminding me about the Maazel recording. I agree so wholeheartedly about that recording and about Maazel in general! The Boulez/VPO recording is the one on regular rotation on my phone, and it's great, but you've reminded me to go back and listen to the Maazel recording... and it's even better. I was fortunate to see Maazel conduct Bruckner's 8th at the NY Phil in 2008 and it bowled me over, I practically leapt out of my seat at the end. The performance had the same roaring brass and clear articulation as the Berlin PO recording. Other Maazel performances (like when he did Brahms or Dvorak) would infuriate me. The precision in Maazel's technique, and the way he could get orchestras to follow every detail of his sometimes crazy shifts in tempo and dynamics, were unparalleled -- for better or worse. I think he was the most *skilled* conductor I've ever seen, even if the skills were put in service of musical ideas that were sometimes eccentric, to say the least.
I really think of Bruckner as a composer of the Future. Much of his compositions are so fresh and modern. I imagine how he would compose to film, and would feel he would have made a valuable contribution to cinema.
Visconti used the 7th as the soundtrack for his melodramatic film “Senso.”
I love the Giulini/VPO - his adagio captures a sense of gentle exultation that no one else manages (IMHO). Other superb versions by Giulini: live in Berlin (Testament - #1 in BBC Radio 3 "Building a Library" in 2011) and the Philharmonia (BBC Legends). My favourite of these three is the VPO. I agree about Wand and Lubeck. Suitner is a very interesting and surprising tip! Many thanks!
I really like the live Giulini!
I am so grateful to Hurwitz for introducing me to the Otmar Suitner Bruckner 8th. It is superb and I am happy to place it alongside my other favorite 8th including Tennstedt LPO live, Barbirolli live, Furtwangler live and Kubelik live and Wand Cologne live. All my favorite 8th are live. The Suitner belongs with this group in that it never relaxes the tension for a moment in this great symphony. Barbirolli and Furtwangler remain the most impassioned and intense performances that I know but Suitner comes close. Thanks Dave!
Love the video! Never occurred to me to connect Bruckner version(s) with avocados! Great! Makes sense! "Hass"
I will continue to explore recordings I've not heard. Thanks for the recommendations!
My fave is the live recording by Sergiu Celibidache / Munich Phil (1890 Nowak). Some say his tempi are too slow but I find them just right. Glad you mentioned it, I'll have to try the alternate version you mention! I grew up in the 60's with the Karajan which is very nice too.
His tempi would be too slow with any other conductor, but if one can phrase like Celibidache, generating and holding these long arches of suspense, then they are just right.
At least with composers whose music lends itself to this type of aesthetic, like Bruckner, Schumann, Schubert, Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky (Celibidache with Mozart or Beethoven does not work).
J'ai parcouru grâce à David von Karajan, Wand, Suitner, Janowski, Skrowaczewski, Giulini et Celibidache et je dois dire que Celi est absolument merveilleux dans ceci. La musique coule irresistiblement.
@@greve Je suis complètement d'accord!
Finally, yes! I was looking forward to this, and you delivered as per usual. Got to know the work with the later Karajan, and also love the version of Celibidache. Just ordered the NDR-Wand, looking forward to hearing that special acoustic!
Hope you enjoy it!
Celi's Adagio of B8 is something special. Shimmering as hot air
I love your videos David, keep safe..
Holy crap. That original ending goes on FOREVER.
Doesn't it?
Great choices! Every one you recommended is one of my favorites and already on my shelf with one exception: The Suitner, which sits on Amazon for over $900, so I'll wait to hear that until it gets reissued or I find it at a reasonable price. Some of the special Bruckner 8ths that I felt deserved a mention (your feeling on these?): Horenstein on BBC, Szell, Giulini/BPO live on Testament, Schuricht/VPO, and one I bought based on your glowing review: Bohm live on Palexa. My top 3 BTW would would be VPO/Karajan, Wand/BPO, and Szell/Cleveland. (Ask me next week and it will probably change slightly!)
I have all of those others. As you can see, they did not make my top 10.
Listening to the Skrowaczewski Bruckner 8 Adagio and it's making my spine tingle within 4 minutes, just magical. Interesting compared to yesterday when I listened to Haitink's Philips Concertgebouw go at the same movement, and I was perplexed. It had no identifiable shape, just block by boring block, the climax just arrives & is not the destination, it's just another block. Listening to the Skrowaczeski as I write this, there's just absolutely no comparison. And then watched this video of you saying Haitink just didn't get this symphony in his early recordings. You're not kidding.
As a self confessed Bruckner fanatic (hiding), I am proud to say I have had all of your top 10 choices for years before I saw this video except Janowski. Bruckner is my favorite conductor, the 8th is the summit and probably my fav symphony of all, and I've been fortunate to see/hear the 8th live a half dozen times (StL and Cincy). Such an emotional piece of music. I envy your Karajan experience!
I completely agree with your high praise for Wand's stunning Lubeck Cathedral live recording with that majestic acoustic adding such atmosphere to the recording. I would probably rank that my #1, and I became a Wand fanboy because of that recording. I also agree re the Karajan Vienna recording, the sound, the circumstances and the best Bruckner orchestra all combining to make virtually a perfect recording. Similar thoughts re Giulini's very profound VPO reading also. I found the Suitner on Berlin years ago, and that is also up there as one of my favorites.
A few of my favorites that you didn't mention would be the Schuricht Vienna from the early 60s on EMI, paired with the 9th. Stunning beautiful and powerful recording with great structure and flow. Also on SACD. I love that recording by the underrated Schuricht. Also, the Eichorn with the Bruckner Linz Orchestra on Camerata label is not as well known and harder to find, but its a spectacular recording with an orchestra that "gets it" and almost rivals the VPO's Bruckner in that dark burnished string tone and excellent brass. An underdog gem.
Also can't go wrong with Bohm and the VPO again, and Chailly with the Concertgebouw.
Love the detailed review, and I do agree the revisions and alternates scholarship does become a tad overdone.
I love the Karajan/VPO recording. I recently bought the live 1978 Karl Böhm Tonhalle Zurich recording. I enjoy it, as well, but Karajan will always be my favorite.
Of the Celibidache Bruckner 8ths, I prefer the older one on Deutsche Gramophon with the Stuttgart orchestra. I think it's slow enough to let all the detail and shape come through, but not so slow that it becomes hard to listen to.
I am pleased that Solti didn't find his way into this top ten. I don't like his Bruckner 8th. When he hadn't been mentioned, and number one was coming up, I was gritting my teeth.
There is an unexpectedly decent Bruckner 8th by Mravinsky, of all people. I thought I would hate it, but it's definitely got its moments. It is, predictably, fast.
My favorite has got to be the Solti/CSO, that is definitely the brass player in me speaking. I absolutely love the Celibidache one as well.
Would be interested in your opinion on Franz Welser-Moest?
The Wand Lubek Cathedral performance is one I return to frequently. I have a Schuricht 1963 VPO recording on Decca which while the sound is bright in places I find rewarding.
Schuricht recorded the Eighth w/ VPO for EMI, not Decca, on 9-12 December 1963. Produced by Ronald Kinloch Anderson, balance engineer listed as unknown on EMI Classics 1991 2CD reissue (c/w Ninth, 20-22 November 1961). It is a classic.
@@MisterOE3 yes, got the label wrong on a mixed set.
This is my favorite Bruckner work. I heard Blomstedt and San Francisco perform this, sitting behind the trumpets. A memorable and thrilling experience.
I do have a soft spot for Chailly’s Concertgebouw recording, for the gorgeous playing and acoustic.
I will get out the Karajan/Vienna recording again to compare. Thanks, David, for the fine recommendations.
Thanks for the recommendations! So far, my favorite is the Celibidache live (Sony-) recording, followed by the late recording with Karajan. However, with Karajan I am a little disappointed with the coda of the finale, which seems a bit too fast and not gigantic to me. Who shouldn't be recommended as the first choice for Bruckner's 8th Symphony is the live recording with Barbirolli. At first I didn't like it that much, because it doesn't have the size and grandeur of the other recordings. But now I like it a lot because of the glowing passion. It is by no means boring and for lovers of the 8th Symphony it should be an enrichment.
As others have commented, I've been waiting for this review and it is a gas! Another (somewhat surprising) fine version is Solti's in the Eloquence/VPO Bruckner box. Now, how about an overview of the best (and definitely the worst) Bruckner cycles/sets. And while you're at it, there are the Myaskovsky symphonies. . .
No, there aren't!
Thank you for all your Bruckner reviews of individual symphonies. Please could you review complete cycles (of "spam" as you call it!)?
Eventually! There are more coming out seemingly every day and it's impossible to keep up with them.
Thanks for the great list!
Just one additional suggestion, I'm usually not a Boulez fan but his recording with the Wiener Phil is just out of this world - at least to my perhaps undistinguised ears.
Already discussed in these comments, multiple times.
Two small notes. In addition to the (one of the) Gunter Wand recording in a cathedral there is also at least a video of a performance by von Karajan and the VPO in a large Cathedral, I think it's Melk, though I'm not certain. Easily findable on TH-cam. I don't know if this performance - from 1979 - ever appeared on disc. And speaking of percussion extrapolations, von Karajan uses two timpanists on two sets of timpani to play the long rolls in the coda. I've never seen or heard anyone else do that - thought it does make some sense. I also don't know if its the same recording that Mr. Hurwitz admires so much - but there's a Bruckner's 8th conducted by Suitner with the SK Berlin - also on TH-cam. It states that its from studio recording sessions from 1986 and 1987; Now that it's so highly recommended, I'm going to listen!
It's a great performance, but I'm not sure about the sound, it sounds like it was recorded in a tin can.
David, you were at the Carnegie Karajan Bruckner 8? Wow... Envy. I've heard so many stories. I have friends in the orchestra who still talk about that performance. Do you know the Audio version of the concert on TH-cam?
No, I don't, and won't.
@@DavesClassicalGuide
why thats interesting to me would it destroy the magic listening again or whats the deal
My favorite is Giulini with VPO, fantastic and tremendous performance.
Why does Giulini have to play everything so slow?? This was his catharsis towards the end of his life.. Too bad. He was a grreat conductor in the 1950s and early 60s.
slow depicts tempo or intensity ？Klemperer slow tempo didn't affects his presentation of grandiose feel.
Thank you for another terrific talk! Super interesting!
Not that it is necessary to rank music in lists, however, if I would, Bruckner’s Eight could well be the greatest of all symphonies. A friend of mine has 90+ versions but myself I have less than ten. Haitink RCO, Haitink Dresden, Celibidache München, Furtwängler Wien 1944, Abendroth, Horenstein, van Beinum, Knappertsbusch Berlin 1951, I think that’s it. I realise I have been buying lots of historical recordings. Another thing: solo instrumental performances have a prominent place in my listening habits and collection as well. I haven’t dug so deeply into the mass of recordings of symphonic repertoire, I have been too busy listening to solo pianists of the past, like Edwin Fischer, Rachmaninov, Cortot and Lili Kraus. In their cases I needn’t doubt for a second wether the sacrifice of a crisp stereo sound is worth it or not. In orchestral recordings I’ve only sporadically made any slightly deeper research in multiple versions of one piece. Anyway, in Bruckner 8 my favourite remains Furtwängler in Vienna 1944.
Cheers
Mikko Lindgren
"Greatest of all symphonies?" Silly!
Of course it is. What is the point of us having this conversation anyway?
I also saw a great Bruckner 8 in Baltimore the other year with Gunther Herbig and it turned me into a bruckner fan. Do you have any opinion on his recording with the Deutsche Radio Philharmonie from 2012?
No.
Recently I got a recording by BPO with Zubin Mehta on BPO's own label. It is along with Karajan's my favourite 👌
In addition to the Ormandy Box (120 cds-mono era) that has a release date of April 21 (in Japan? in Europe?) There are 2 other boxes coming- Previn Warner Box- EMI and Teldec 96 discs, and Abbado/ LSO etc. on DG 46 discs...I'm guessing there's no Bruckner 8th in any of those boxes which is ok by me. Dave, what's the latest on these new releases?
I have no idea. You know as well as I do.
I was hoping you would mention Michael Gielen's SWR recording on Hänssler, just to talk about the Morton Feldman "Coptic Light" coupling.
Isn't that the 1887 version?
@@Sulsfort Oh fiddleshit.
what do you think about Blomstedt with Gewandhaus? I never heard the recording but I played this symphony with Mr. B. himself and it was a life-changing experience, I'm curious to see why he didn't make it on the list.
I think it's rather dull.
Interesting video, merci David ! I would add to my favorite: Bohm with Vienna (DG), and Kegel with Leipzig Radio (the orchestra is not perfect but the intensity, the violence are beyond words).
Chocolates, strawberries, avocados: oy vey, now I need lunch! I do love the Tintner as I love the whole box set, but I’m certainly not going to argue that ending is the one we need to hear. I think Celibidache’s Bruckner 8ths, both the Sony one in Tokyo and the EMI one in Munich. I know they are long but to me, they have a certain titanic, idiomatic majesty I find utterly absorbing and the absolute
best. I know many find it contemptible, but if you aren’t going to lay things on thick in Bruckner’s 8, where in the whole classical canon? Skro gets the silver for me, in part because that’s perhaps my favorite Bruckner cycle overall. Bronze? What the hay, I’ll go with a conductor rarely associated with Bruckner: Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra. No muss, no fuss, precisely played.
I have the Szell and I like it too. No effort at being pretentious
Dave, I bought the Karajan/VPO recording of the Bruckner 8th shortly after it was originally released, and I loved it. It was on 2 CDs. Now I see that DG has reissued it as one of their "The Originals" recordings. Other than fitting it on to one CD, did DG improve the sound in any way?
I don't know. I haven't heard that particular issue.
I just got the single disk version reviewed here. There is no comparison between the muddy old 2 disk version and the new version on one disk which is far superior. Go buy the new version --- it is wonderful.
Originally the Suitner recording came out on ETERNA in East Germany, on LP. It's absolutely sublime.
Skrowaczewski performance has always been my favorite fir Bruckner’s Eighth (as well as Brahms’ Fourth) I have not heard the Suitner or the Wand Lubeck Cathedral (whose Bruckner performances I usually enjoy) but I will find both and give them a listen. Another performance you did not mention that I really enjoy, especially the first two movements, is Tennstedt and LSO. I was curious if you are familiar with it and, if so, you like it. Thank you as always, and I look forward to hearing a couple of new (to me) performances this Bruckner masterpiece.
I know the Tennstedt well, and find it thoroughly second rate. Sorry!
It makes me sad because I really believe LSO has the right sound for Bruckner, no there are no good performances with them, and I blame the conductors and not the ensemble. I feel like Tennstedt doesn’t understand the adagio or finale movements. The performance is sort of like that Kubrick/Spielberg movie A.I. where the first half was outstanding but the second half stunk.
@@rbmelk7083 The Tennstedt studio 8th on EMI/Warner is with the London Philharmonic, not the LSO.
Quite correct... I will edit the comment so we have the right info out there.
A couple of years ago I rearranged my work schedule in London to get back to Edinburgh in time for a performance of Bruckner 8. I was assuming 1890 as a particular edition had not been advertised - and this is well known to be a piece where edition really matters. Performance started and it rapidly became clear that it was the 1887. Interested in Dave H's comment about the original scherzo not being very dynamically varied - I walked out and went home to listed to Scrowaczewski midway through the scherzo, as I thought it was just a lousy performance as well as being the wrong edition.
As a corollary to my earlier comment, I like the recordings by the Cleveland Orchestra conducted by Szell and Dohnanyi, The playing in both performances is stunning, with marvelous rhythmic acuity and clarity abetted by hefty sonorities where called for.
Bought the Suitner recording and it is everything you said it was. I don't think I could listen to any other performance.
I was also at the Karajan/Vienna 8th at Carnegie. It was a loaded occasion, foremost because it was obviously the last time Karajan would travel to NYC. I remember him coming out for bows, looking toward the upper tier seats and waving. It was hard not to take that as goodbye. It was indeed an inspired, intense performance.
You may know already, but a Korean guy has uploaded it on TH-cam. Obviously , less than ideally balanced recording!
@@MorganHayes_Composer.Pianist Do you have a link to it?
@@franzliszt9799 It seems to have been taken down by the TH-cam police ! Hopefully it will make a comeback someday .
I was also there. It was overwhelming.
Very grateful to you for drawing our attention to Suitner's 8th. It is all that you say. The performance is fired up and infectiously exciting, no mean feat with such a huge, often slow-moving piece. Even Jochum's 8th sounds a bit four-square and stodgy. But Suitner delivers. I agree, the best!
Delighted to see Van Beinum in your list (that scherzo!)
Almost a lecture on a mighty Bruckner's 8, thank you! I have a question though. I know you said there is no point in comparing Haas and Nowak but it seems that Haas edition doomed to oblivion since none of the young conductors would play it, everyone prefers Nowak as the ultimate 'true' version. Is it a real thing or not so?
Yes, because current Bruckner scholarship insists on methodological grounds that Haas is unacceptable (and he was a Nazi, which never helps). Then they go and do the same thing (or worse) that Haas did. It's very unfortunate.
Hi David, could you please tell us the barcode of the Suitner version? I have not been able to find the recording anywhere. Thank you so much for your funny videos !!
See my review at ClassicsToday.com.
Dave, what are your thoughts on Celibidache's Bruckner recordings with the Munich Philharmonic? They are certainly perverse in terms of tempo, but I actually love how slow he sets the music, and the richness of the sound is just incredible, unmatched in my opinion!
I like him, much of the time.
I was waiting for you to mention Horenstein, which I have on LP and enjoy, and which you favorably reviewed as a set.
They are not among the best, good as they are.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I beg to differ. I have 15 versions of this symphony on CD and DVD. My favourite is Horenstein’s live Prom with the LSO. It has the finest timpani playing (by the great Kurt-Hans Gödicke) that I have ever heard. His playing in the scherzo drives the music forward with a thrilling momentum that has to be heard to be believed.
@@antwerpsmerle1404 I've heard it and I don't believe it. Seriously. I agree that it's very good, just not as good as other options available today. Like what you please--that's fine with me.
@@antwerpsmerle1404 Agreed, the Horenstein live Prom performance is sensational. But one is spoilt for choice with this symphony.
Yes ! After you mentioned Wand / Berlin I didn‘t expected it: Wand at the Schleswig-Holstein Musikfestival in Lübeck. I‘m living in Schleswig-Holstein and this was the first time I ever heard this symphony (on television). I was 21 years old. The first release was on EMI/deutsche harmonia mundi. Now I have many other recordings (even Venzago). But this was always my favourite. And the sound is phantastic ! Greetings from Northern Germany !
Kind regards from Northern Germany by me as well.
And Kind Regards from Kopenhagen Dänemark as well! I have owned the Wand/Lübeck recording for about 25 years but failed to find the Zen moment where I can put it on and enjoy it from start till end.
I guess it will be on the Autobahn down south and preferably when I cross the border to Austria.
Kind regards from Shanghai, China! I too own the Lübeck set, which I grabbed from a old CD dealer almost 15 years ago (at the price of only ~7 USD). Oh my, the reverberation is probably nowhere else to be found on CD. How I wish I could listen to this piece by a capable conductor and orchestra in a gigantic gothic church!
To van Beinum and Giulini I would add (strange as it may sound) Boulez/Vienna.The only Bruckner I've ever heard him do and it's stunning. Also, an honorable mention goes to Horenstein/Vienna Pro Musica Orchestra, even if the sonics could be better.
Günter Wand/Lübeck is extraordinary - it sounds like he has about 20 double basses. But it's the quieter moments that really stay in the mind. Karajan 1988 I have mixed feelings about. There is that inner glow and the Vienna strings cover themselves in glory, but listening to it now, I find the ensemble lapses in the slow movement troubling. The live performance DG/Unitel recorded in St. Florian has Karajan's best first movement I would say - the trumpets blasting out the Hauptrhythmus at the climax has a ferocity that just isn't there in his other recordings. Giulini I have always loved for his big-picture approach and the way he makes everything sing. I want to put in a good word for the Sinopoli/Dresden Staatskapelle - gloriously played and for the most part, Sinopoli gets out of the way. I don't know the Suitner and look forward to hearing it.
Dear pawdaw: I join my voice to praise the Sinopoli. His handling of the coda is superb.
Hey mr Hurwitz, I had a question at 11:50 you say that one of the versions (nowak or haas) has a few extra bars in the slow movement, can you let me know which version has the extra bars, I am really curious to know!! Thank you very much in advance!!
Haas.
@@DavesClassicalGuide thank you very much!!
David discussed the confusing Bruckner editions very clearly. I found Bohm with VPO is also a very convincing recording. It contains the tension and distinctive beauty that the eight demands. I am a little sad this recording doesn't get attention as much as his fourth.
Any opinion on the Rogner/RSO Berlin on Berlin Classics?
Fast, a bit shrilly recorded, with some rough brass playing.
I bow to your Bruckner expertise, and I respect that you don't care between Haas v Nowak... But, I care, if given the choice... there are two or three moments I love that appear in the Hass that aren't in the Nowak... That being said, you are right, it shouldn't be a big deal... What I absolutely hate concerning the Nowak editions, which ofend me as a trumpeter and musician are 1) the use of key signatures in the Trumpet parts - no trumpet parts of that time ever included key signatures. It is so distracting to transpose parts in F with key sigs. and 2) Rehearsal numbers appearing every 10 bars. These bear no relation to the phrases or sections. Bruckner, who numbered measures based on the phrasing (1-8, 1-10, 1-4, etc..) would have been appalled....
I hear you! However, as you yourself suggest, the fact that you (or I) care doesn't mean that it matters. I prefer Haas too, but I'd rather hear a great performance of Nowak than a tepid one of Haas, and in the end the differences are not significant enough to alter the expressive power of the music (which is not the case as regards 1887). The other notational details you cite don't affect how listeners hear the music.
@@DavesClassicalGuide True. Which is why I still like the Maazel. Fabulous version.
Dave your right! This is GREAT STUFF!!!!
I heard the Cincinnati Symphony play this with Donald Runnicles (a noted Bruckner specialist) guest conducting and he too did that same sudden diminuendo/crescendo thing as Thielemann. I had never heard it before, and in fact it does not appear in Runnicles' Proms concert of this same piece at the BBC Proms (on TH-cam). Can I assume that Runnicles just borrowed this element from Thielemann, or might there be something in some version of the score that marks it? The other thing about that concert, as powerful and majestic as I thought it was overall, was the difficulty in achieving the right balance -- the swelling strings under the brass fanfare in the recapitulation of the main theme of the final movement was totally lost. Not sure if it had something do to with the tricky sonics of Cincinnati's Music Hall (though this was post-renovation, where the acoustics are greatly improved) or just a persistent difficulty that is hard to achieve outside of manipulations in the recording studio.
No need to borrow anything from anyone. Dumb ideas tend to proliferate on their own.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Well, to me it seems way too detailed and specific of a mannerism to have just magically appeared on its own by two separate conductors. I found it interesting when it happened live, but also distracting. But point well taken about the proliferation of dumb ideas. Also, curious what you think about Tennstedt. I have his EMI recording and think it's fabulous in the same way Tennstedt is great (I think) with Mahler. But I think it's a studio recording, and I seem to remember hearing somewhere that Tennstedt has a live recording of the Bruckner 8th that is better?
@@dr.andrewcasper3405 The Tennstedt has already been discussed in these comments. As to that mannerism, it is not too specific. Trust me.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Ah, I see that now. Well, Tennstedt was my first exposure to the Bruckner 8th so I guess I'm used to it, second rate as it might be. But holy cow, I did just listen to that Suitner recording and you weren't joking! That is outstanding. Keep these coming, I cannot tell you how much I enjoy your videos.
@@dr.andrewcasper3405 Thank you for watching!
3:56 . Made my day
I heard the 8 in St. Florian with Bruckner Orchester Linz, Russell Davies conducting, and he omitted the both cymbal crashes. I guess they forgot the cymbals in Brucknerhaus. :P
Dave sounding conciliatory: "I realize there are those who prefer the earlier version..."
Then Dave going in for the kill: "...but they are mentally ill."
Lol.
Well, ya know...
Yes - Dave's right, the rarely-played first version (1887) is bizarre.
There's a very serious performance of that 1887 on video with Welser-Möst / Cleveland. It almost neutralizes some of its wandering effect... but still...
What are your thoughts on Tennstedt’s live recording with the London Philharmonic? It’s one of my favourites, it’s faster than average and has one of the most exciting endings I’ve heard.
I like it, but I like most Tennstedt performances. He did a number of excellent Bruckner 8's with other orchestras including the NDR, Boston SO, Berliner Phil, Chicago SO, and The Philadelphia Orchestra.
@@leestamm3187
I remember being at the box office in Symphony Hall in Boston one Thursday afternoon in 1974 to buy tickets for something else, when someone came up to me and offered a seat at Tennstedt's Bruckner 8 which was going to be performed that night. I went and was sufficiently bowled over that I listened on radio the next day to the afternoon performance, then went back to the box office and got a ticket to the Saturday evening concert... which was the best of all. I still remember Joseph Silverstein smiling broadly at Alfred Krips in satisfaction at how well the violins had aced the slow movement. Then I followed up with a trip to Tanglewood the following summer, but that time the magic seemed lost. Maybe it was just that the Tanglewood shed couldn't duplicate the intensity of the Symphony Hall acoustic.
In the Suitner recording he uses the amalgamated version and I love it. Who put that version together?
You said it. Amalgamated Symphonies, Inc.
Just a note that my copy of NDR/Wand is on EMI, but seems to be the same recording from Lübeck Cathedral. The recording date(s) are specified as August 22nd and 23rd, 1987. It’s pretty wonderful.
The back of the Lübeck 8th CD says that it was recorded "in a full public rehearsal and two concerts on 24th, 25th and 28th June [1988] in Lübeck Cathedral". Going by that, the EMI would be a different recording; I'm sure it's great, though... Wand usually was in this symphony!
@@ftumschk Thank you! I had wondered about just such a possibility, and that's why I posted the information. What treat to have such wonderful music, and to have it performed so well.
@@davidgoodman6538 RCA messed up the blurb on the back of the CD cases for some of their Wand Lubeck 8 and Lubeck 9 "cathedral cover art" releases. In the faulty batch, the performance and recording dates of the 9th are discussed on the back of the CD case of the 8th, and vice versa. There is only one recording of each symphony by Wand in that cathedral as far as I know: the 8th in 1987 and 9th in 1988.
@@bluto32 Thank you. Who would ever know to suspect that the documentation would be incorrect.
There is a Bruckner 8 by Suitner on Berlin Classics Label. Is it the same, or as good as the Denon one?
I indicated which it is in the video, but yes, they are the same.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Yes the Denon is hard to find, And I have found a the Berlin Classics one, Thank you.
This perhaps is your best review of a Bruckner work - is Jim Sveda following?
Szell and Cleveland, recorded October 1969: beyond comparison. And I’m even playing in the cello section!
Then you should recuse yourself.
You can only dream what it's like to sit in the middle of a great orchestra, with a great conductor, and play a work like that. I know.
I swear -- I heard Maazel's recording with the Berlin Philharmonic and I would have sworn that Karajan was conducting! Was the orchestra prepared for Karajan before cutting ties to Berlin?
Maybe I missed it, but Tennstedt with the bso and later in Europe is the Bruckner 8 for me. I heard it live in Boston Symphony Hall and it is the supreme symphonic experience of my life. A version not well record ed is on TH-cam.
The commercial release isn't so hot either.
The von Karajan is always going to be my favorite. Okay, von Karajan and Schuricht! 🎶🎵🎼
My favourite version of Bruckner 8 is the Munich Philharmonic with Celibachedi conducting and the late great Peter Sadlo playing the timpani
I have the Gunter Wand/BPO recording and it's superb
Thank you for the video! Loved and shared your opinions on 1887/90, as well as Nowak/Haas and silliness surrounding everything about Bruckner.
I wondered if you have heard Sir John Barbirolli's recording, made in 1970 (the year he died) with the Hallé Orchestra. I'm in love with the astonishing energy he pulls out of the scherzo (and how the mad tempo actually works wonderfully!).
Hope you can give me your opinion about that. Keep going on with your videos!
Great stuff, Dave. Bravo. When might we get the Mozart Piano Quartets from you?!
I was thinking about that recently...
@@DavesClassicalGuide Good to hear. Be sure to cover the dreadful handling by DG of the superb Klien/Amadeus recording, which should have been an Originals release, but instead was left unreleased on CD for years, then only on Tower Records Japan CD (but with little crackles and glitches on K478) and then in the Amadeus Quartet megabox, but with the stereo channels on K478 inexplicably reversed. Aaaahhh. And check out the fine recent recording on Claves, which seems to have flown under the radar... and the Joyce Yang, too!
@@bwpm1467 Looks like you've got it covered.
@@DavesClassicalGuide But no one can cover something quite like how David Hurwitz can cover it.... 👍
@@bwpm1467 I think you do very well indeed!
I was not sure if David did 8
But finally
Each time I proposed it was already done😃
Is it possible to make a critic of Wand live Dvd of Bruckner symphonies
Not by me. It's enough to listen. Asking me to watch is too much! ;)
@@DavesClassicalGuide I would like to say that I really love your videos
They are just great
I have different taste, well I must confess that I am not a fan of Bernstein, but the way you present it I want to listen everything
It is a huge work you have done and I congratulate you
@@luccharbonneau9382 Thanks very much!
"Skrowaczewski added a tam-tam"
Tampering? TAMPERING? WITH BRUCKNER??!! The Cloistered Council of the Bruckner Brotherhood shall hear of this, and at once. May Bruckner have mercy on your soul.
I heard Otmar Suitner`s 4 movement in youtube, and my question is: HOW CAN FIND OTHERS?
Aggravating, isn't it? Hopefully they will be back at some point.
Hi David, I just listened to your recommended recording. Found it on TH-cam. I can see why you chose it. It's got great character about it. Sounds like it's a live recording with the audience noise reduced. Don't quote me on that. Slightly ragged around the edges, but that's what gives it it's character. Certainly exciting in the finale. I'm just amazed how so many different performances of Bruckner make it sound like a different composer sometimes. I have the Gunter wand version with the NDR, I like the sound from that one, even though his tempi are generally leisurely. Thanks, enjoyable video..
The Suitner is on TH-cam. He was another one of those wonderful conductors you've never heard of.
Dear David, what do you think about the Inbal recording?
Blech!
@@DavesClassicalGuide you are clear as always! Thank you!
Wand's live in Luebeck was once my favorite although sometimes the trumpets may be a little bit harsh, until I found a special version on which to my surprise I saw no discussion here. It was the legendary Celibidache with MPO live in Lisboa 1994. This recent official release from a Japanese label is even better than the SONY Live in Tokyo version. I'm not a Christian but I think I can imagine angels leading to the gate of the heaven when listening to the coda of the finale.