I was really looking forward to this talk. I've enjoyed your discussion on each Beethoven symphony as it has been shared and this one was no exception. I also thought I'd mention that I just purchased a new e-reader and your Beethoven book was my first acquisition. It's really wonderful -- enabling me to hear works that I've known for years with "new ears" and inspiring me to fill in gaps of unexplored territory. I especially appreciate your identifying certain characteristic structures or techniques that Beethoven used across his compositions (e.g., the "bounce"). Your gift of communication is as evident in your writing as in your talks, but I would add that where your talks are wonderfully spontaneous and often funny, your writing, though no less engaging, is very polished and clear. On a personal note, your Beethoven symphony recommendations have been very validating. When I was in college (early 80s), I somewhat obsessively checked out all of the Beethoven symphony cycle records from the university library and listened for hours in search of a set that I would actually purchase. I ended up going with the Szell/Cleveland. About ten years later, in my quest for my ideal 9th, I landed on the Wand recording. It was gratifying to hear you speak so favourably about Szell's and Wand's Beethoven recordings. Thank you for continuing to enrich and encourage my ongoing exploration of great music! It has been very meaningful and a lot of fun!
I've always liked Toscanini‘s (alleged) comment to an orchestra when rehearsing the Eroica: it’s not Hitler, it’s not Mussolini, it’s Allegro con brio.
I’m not going to say Scherchen is the best Eroica, but it’s the certainly the most entertaining and simply fun. For anyone who hasn’t heard it, I highly recommend you strap in for the ride and keep on listening.
I agree with almost everything except for the revolutionary/radical side of the piece. To our 2021 ears nothing is no more revolutionary. It has to be judge in context of the period and yes it is revolutionary in comparison with not only Mozart and Haydn but also with Beethoven first two symphonies.
Just listen to the first movement of Mozart's Symphony 40 and try to understand what radicality in dissonance, developing variation and musical structure actually is. Then try again to talk about Beethoven's third
THAT passage in the first movement, the one you say nobody talks about is where Furtwangler always makes me silently gasp: the strings play the series of chords at the end with enormous weight, and Furtwangler makes a very deliberate ritardando which, to me, feels inherent in the music itself. It is one of those incredible moments where, in the words of Klemperer when he talked about Mahler's conducting "It couldn't be otherwise".
Brilliant work again David! I have many of the ones you cited but I was missing Szell's which I just purchased and listened too. Wow! The finale made my hair stand on end, which wouldn't be so remarkable except that I am entirely bald! Anyway, thanks again!
another extremely enjoyable talk. love how you explain your side and how you discourage useless comments. i went back to listen to bohm then compared them to your recommendations. i clearly noted how less flexible he was compared to say kletzki. you are making me discover new treasures and i deeply thank you. you’re also quite amusing. i just love all your videos.
Funny, those few musical exerpts of Kletzki's recording discouraged me wanting to listen to the entire Eroica by Kletzki. The example at 20:16 reminded me at Furtwängler saying (about a very strict tempo): "It sounds awfully direct!" Well, I don't think Karl Böhm was great at Beethoven (however Böhm is well known for his Mozart recordings especially "Die Zauberflöte" with the unforgotten Fritz Wunderlich)! I made some of my friends listen to three versions of the Eroica (my favorite Beethoven symphony) asking them which one they liked most? It was only part from the first movement by Karajan, Bernstein and Furtwängler. First mono was the main issue. There Bernstein was their favorite. But when I asked them to ignore the mono suddenly Furtwängler had their admiration! I'm not sure whether this can be called manipulation or not? For my taste Karajan was far too fast (like also in the 5th). (I have to admit that Karajan made a great recording of Beethoven's 9th in 1947 with almost the same singers like Furtwängler's 1950 recording of the re-opening in Bayreuth!) Bernstein is excellent and without Furtwängler by far my (second) favorite. But hands down Furtwängler is simply outstanding. No matter that Dave calls Furtwängler "limited" or even a "one trick pony"! Yes, in music people have different tastes. You'll simply have to accept it. (This also is true for me. I simply have to accept that Dave has a different taste than me!)
I will be the curmudgeon. It was my least favorite Beethoven symphony for many years until I heard the Von Matacic / Czech Philharmonic recording. It was too dry, and went on for too long. I do like it now (I have a Furtwangler/Vienna recroding from 1953 from the Musikverein -- not the one that Dave recommends but another one released by EMI Japan) that I just listened to and see how lyrical it is.
The first test I apply to recordings of the Eroica is whether the violin syncopation in measures 7 and 8 is clear or whether it just sounds like one long held note. Unfortunately, many recordings seem to fail on this point.
Great talk, David. Loved the intro. I can readily accept all the criticisms of the the work itself, and especially the flood of meaningless commentary. I am not as disturbed by them as you, but I get it! I especially agree with you about the qualities needed to make the piece work. Which leads me to wonder, why no mention of Karajan? I think his versions meet all your criteria. In particular: 1) Big band Beethoven, doubled winds, trumpets in the coda, taut, tense, fast! The Funeral march is terrifying. The Coda of the Finale is big! Doesn't sound thin at all. 2) It's both Toscannian and Furtwänglerian in style. Toscannini's, tautness, and strict tempi, but with a Germanic orchestral weight that Toscannini never achieved (or wanted...). Karajan wanted to be the synthesis of his two great elder role models, and I think that is evident in his Eroicas. Everything you said about the work in your intro is, I think, ably demonstrated in the first two DG sets, as well as the fabulous Sony live video from 1982. Thanks again, for such engaging videos. I really enjoy them
Thoughtful comment. I looked at the age of each of the Eroicas in this talk. Many were recorded in the 1950s, and the most recent are Tennstedt from the 1970s and Dausgaard, Jarvi and Honeck recorded after the year 2000. That leaves out the 1980s and 1990s before historically informed performance became the norm when the classical music industry were cranking out a lot of recordings. I would suggest that if you want a more modern recording with a traditional performance - dare I say it - Karajan's digital recoding on DG is very satisfying.
With one exception (9th of 1947) I like none of Karajan's Beethoven symphonies recordings! Most of them are far too fast especially the Eroica and the theme of the 5th! Also too fast but still better than Karajan at the 5th is Carlos Kleiber. By the way Carlos Kleiber made a very lively recording of Beethoven's 4th. Carlos Kleiber's 7th recording I rate between the excellent 4th and the mediocre 5th. I must add that Carlos Kleiber is one of my favorite conductors!
After listening to your extensive opening I got the impression you were not talking about the symphony but about all the talk about it. That is not the fault of the symphony nor Beethoven's. He just wrote a good piece of music with some flaws perhaps but considering that so many people love it without all the fuzz of the musicologists, its flaws are minor and the whole symphony achieves its goal. When I heard it for the first time I was blown away by it, especially the funeral march, and I had not read the liner notes. So indeed: talk less and listen more to the music
That is exactly my point and you certainly "got it." We need to distinguish between the music itself and the mountain of verbiage that gets said about it.
Ok, I tried the Szell (mvt 1), Honeck (full) and Monteux (full). I loved the Honeck the most. His finale was really powerful for me, not in terms of strength but in terms of its ability to effectively highlight the wide variety of emotions that you mentioned was one of the most impressive aspects of the Eroica. The jumping from happy to sad and all emotions in between is certainly why I love the Eroica. I shamelessly admit it's my favourite Beethoven symphony after the Sublime Ninth. It was a lot of fun trying out some non-Fricsay Beethoven (which I have loved so much from your videos!)
Less than an hour ago I listened to Szell's recording. It's been years Dave, but my God! the music leaps out the gate like a thoroughbred race horse from the first note and makes you feel as if there's no other way of playing it. If ever there was a perfect example of how humane Szell could be beneath that dictatorial manner of his, it's in the second movement. It's a bit quicker than some would like, but it truly shines, and you can hear ALL the notes from top to bottom. It's not an exercise in precision, it's gloriously humane music. That movement alone, and Szell's ability with Haydn, in my opinion, buries the lie that he was some kind of musical conducting machine devoid of human feeling. It's nonsense! And the last two movements of his Eroica really shows off how great the Cleveland Orchestra was in its prime, especially in the pointed beauty of the woodwinds and the brass. In my early days I was an unabashed Klemperer fan of this work and felt nobody on Earth could play it as well as he. Now after a 20 year absence of hearing Szell's performance, and an older man, I find Szell's just so inevitably "right." If ever there was a Desert Island Disc of Beethoven's Eroica, Szell's is truly the one to be shipwrecked with. Thanks so much for the review Dave. I really appreciate it. As many times as you've plugged the Kletzki cycle of Beethoven, you're inching me that much closer to buying my God, yet another Beethoven cycle. Time to find an "overflow room." :)
I've listened to many, many, many recordings of B3 over the years and attended many live performances of this piece (even performed it (bassoon 1) ) and I don't think I have to tell you what a beast this monumental piece of music is to perform with even a miniscule modicum of success. Technically the piece from start to finish is a train wreck waiting to happen. So to begin with you need an orchestra with the highest level of precision to fluidly pull off the intricate phrasing from one musical idea to the next. Without a doubt, Szell and the Clevelanders fit the bill from start to finish and Szell knew what a shiny diamond the CO was with him at the helm. With an incredibly impressive collection of woodwind players, all world class virtuosos in their own right, and a phenomenal horn section led by arguably the greatest horn virtuoso of that era, Myron Bloom, Szell let the music lead his players to such an inspired performance, capped off by arguably the greatest recorded "Eroica" finale of all time. Szell/CO should be the gold standard for the "Eroica" for a real long time.
I think the chamber music "partner piece" to the Eroica is the razumovsky OP 59 No.1. The music contained therein is also absolutely radical in scope and detail. That work I would argue is perfectly balanced because there is a substantive ,roving scherzo after the massive opening movement. The final also takes into regard the poignancy of the adagio.Its one of Beethoven's greatest works imo
It's true. These two works are often compared. I think especially because of the first movement which in both works has a gigantic development. Personally I find the quartet more successful and more beautiful. And I also find that the OP 59 n ° 1 is one of the greatest works of Beethoven (with the last quartets, the last 4 sonatas and the 9th symphony)
I was wondering if I was crazy because I have always loved the Szell performance and I had no idea whether it was going to show up. You often hear people say that Szell is best with other orchestras besides Cleveland, but I've always thought that the Szell/Cleveland Eroica was a testament to the high level of music making happening in Cleveland under his helm. What makes his interpretation work for me is how deftly he characterizes each movement. The Eroica stands on the cusp of, and even points to, the era of program music to come in the later 19th century. Szell perfectly captures this "zwischenpunkt" between the classical era upon which Beethoven is innovating, and the movement towards programmatic representation in music that takes over later.
Great content! I am a (late period) Beethoven fanatic and have been going through so many of your videos on that topic. Eroica was certainly one of my early favorites but I have distanced myself from it a lot since then. Interesting to hear why.
of course, I understand David's point, but precisely the "grace" of "Eroica" is that it is a work of "transition", imperfect and at times anti-musical or beyond the possibilities of the time in which it was made. composed. The first version I heard was the one by Szell/Cleveland and Szell seems to have had no qualms about showing the score with all its scope and imperfections, and I confess that listening to it disconcerted me in parts. In the same way, over time (and I don't know if it's the right thing to do) I tended to listen to the works as "problems to be solved", and I think that this enriches the listening perspectives and, I believe, increases enjoyment and at the same time makes us be more selective.
Who am I to disagree with my favorite music critic, but David will never convince me that the Eroica wasn't radical or lessen my sheer enjoyment of this symphony from beginning to end.
I didn't interpret his words as denying that it was radical, I interpret it as him saying that it isn't radical now, since we have had Wagner, Mahler, Schoenberg, etc.
Honeck isn’t just the accents, To my ear it’s how he tunes and voices the chords, especially in what I’m now calling the 25 car pileup on the Jersey turnpike section of the first movement and it gives them a dissonant crunch that you don’t often get. Also my favorite finale, the winds halfway through before the horn comes in with the big tune. I adore Järvi, i bought it at a used record store in Michigan 9 years ago and it absolutely blew me away, I don’t think any cycle from the last 10-15 years has come close to what he did, it’s a glorious edition to the discography. My fav Cleveland eroica is actually Dohnanyi, better sound, and Dohnanyi makes more of the trumpet/timpani doubling of the triplets in the coda of the first movement more than Szell, and I find that more satisfying, but the orchestra still at that point knew how to play it from Szell. I loved this talk Dave. Thank you.
Another superb, educational video - thank you so much, David. I'm systematically going through your list here, listening to each recommendation. So far, Erich Kleiber's 3rd stands out, for me, as the one that moves me to the most repeat plays - it's simply stupendous. By the way, Pristine Classical has cleaned up and improved the sound for Kleiber's 3rd, making it sound fantastic.
The "Funeral March" was a hasty substitution by Erich Leinsdorf and the Boston Symphony when their concert was interrupted by the announcement from the stage of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963. I was in junior high school at the time and heard the tape-delayed concert on the radio two or three days later. I remember the announcement followed by gasps from the crowd and rustling sounds that gradually died down after the music commenced. I presume the tape is still in the Boston Symphony archives. Coincidentally, RCA released the "Eroica" on L.P. with Leinsdorf and the Boston Symphony the same year-- presumably recorded before the assassination. The music would have been fresh in everyone's mind... .
A live recording of that afternoon is here on TH-cam. Someone put the radio broadcast on here from BSO Hall. It is gut wreching to listen to the crowd.
Let's not forget what David has done here for music lovers. He has just talked for almost 50 minutes about a symphony that he can struggle to enjoy at times, knowing that many music lovers out there do love the Eroica. Thank you for this wonderful chat David!
In my early days of listening to the Eroica, I used to prefer Gardiner's version with O.R.R. It's in period instruments and really fast, clear, and is incessant in its want to keep pushing forward, which was something different from the Eroicas I had listened on youtube. After checking out your channel, I found out about Honeck's version and after one listening it has become my new reference. I would like to mention an anecdote about the Honeck recording. When I was first listening to it, I was outside walking. The sky was clear all day. However, the moment the fugue in the second movement started, there was a huge rumble in the sky and as soon as the brass and timpani enter, it started pouring! Now, it was obviously a coincidence but the whole moment that the music and the atmosphere created was simply breathtaking. I still get shivers thinking about that moment!
I would have been disappointed if you hadn't ended with the Szell/Cleveland. But you didn't disappoint me. When I was in high school, I listened to a performance of the Third with Szell and the Cleveland "live from Severance Hall" on the radio and I was transfixed. Still remember it.
@@DavesClassicalGuide From a Snoopy line in an old Peanuts Sunday comic strip: Josephine's advice when her husband departs for Waterloo: "Don't get blown apart, Bonaparte".
Dave-Koussevitsky and the Boston Symphony Orchestra did an exciting recording of the Eroica around 1945, I think. I thought that the last movement was exciting, because I knew that it was going to be an exciting ending. which it was. I like the beginning of the symphony. What do you think of that recording?
Fantastic talk, David. Szell - yes. Klemperer - yes. I reckon that if LvB had never ascribed any tribute to it, in the first place, all of the verbiage that we're now stuck with, would never have come about. Anyway, what is, is what is. I actually believe his first symphony is more coherent and - can I say 'confident' in terms of rule-breaking; the opening clashing chord is surely a sign of what Beethoven was about.
to be clear: The Monteux box contains 2 3rds: the other is with Vienna, and to me is worth listening to for the clarity of the second violin parts which you don't often hear (and a pretty good performance too) Eloquence really knows what they're doing in their selection of recordings. Thanks for pointing this release out, Dave. not sure if this was in wide release in the U S. when it came out in the '60s.
Finally found my favorite recording of this piece . It is also with Szell but with the Czech Philarmonic live . The transparent texture despite the not so great sound is still increbible . And that coda they do really comme close in reproducing the Cleveland studio recording , something Cleveland couldn't even do live with Szell :P
I grew up with Toscanini. Maybe this is why I never felt strongly about the problems that David highlights in the interesting introductory talk. I also enjoyed Furtwanglers way of leading back into the recapitulation.
Glad to see Klemp was still up there after all these years, along with Szell. Klemperer most definitely for his masterful grasp of the work's epic narrative arc; Szell for the utter almost blinding clarity . I listened the other day to Szell and (unsmiling) Bohm one after the other because I was in the mood for the Eroica and I thought Bohm's held up very well indeed. Poor old Karl always gets the short end of the stick, but I'm glad you did a review of the DG box set!
I got the Kletzki cycle on your recommendation and have been loving it. Just the other day I was thinking about how the winds articulate the opening theme in the third movement and how charming that was. Literally the highlight of the entire account for me.
a couple of trivia items: 1. Jarvi's Bremen orchestra uses valveless Bach-type long trumpets apparent in the video versions of the Beethoven symphonies. Everything else seems to be standard issue modern instruments. 2. Years ago, rumor had it that the Vienna State Opera Orchestra was the name slapped onto recordings of the Vienna Philharmonic when the conductor was deemed of lesser fame or talent. don't know if this is true or not I do know that the orchestra's by-laws state that a musician must play in the opera orchestra for 3 years before trying out for the Philharmonic, though there may be exceptions. Therefore, in theory, all members of the Philharmonic are (were) members of the opera orchestra, though all members of the opera orchestra are NOT members of the Philharmonic. (Whew!)
Dave, I'm new to the channel and delighted with your videos. My first Eroica was given me in my Easter basket when I was in the fourth grade (now some 41 years ago as I am just turned 50 last week). It was a cassette of Szell/Cleveland and my very first classical recording all-my-own. One part took my breath away and made me sit up: your "foggy Jersey turnpike" moment (what I called in my callow youth the "train" moment because it chuggs off at the end). Though you complain no one mentions that segment, it was MY Eroica moment. Szell/Cleveland is the recording I have turned to again and again throughout my life.
In college I imprinted on Toscanini's Beethoven cycle and have come to appreciate Szell under your tutelage. Inthink the fast tempos helped to grasp the overall structure of the music. I tried Klemperer but it seemed monotonous and excessively metronomic. And lets face it, the sound is not lush on these early recordings. I have, however, really enjoyed the following: Chailly, Masur, von Karajan, Colin Davis, Barenboim/Berlin Staatskapelle, and, yes, even Thielemann/VPO. In all these recordings the orchestras sound gorgeous, and I now also appreciate slower tempos. Maybe i just love the Eroica. It is a pretty good piece of music after all LOL.
Dave, wondering what you think about the Celibidache version on EMI (Munich, 1987). It's a very polarizing interpretation. My brain says that Beethoven would have been throwing things at Sergiu, and I know that some of the tempi are remarkably slow (Funeral March = 19:15?) but I can't help but love the overwhelming sonority of this performance. Should I seek counseling?
@@DavesClassicalGuide If yyou want to listen to Beethoven choose another version. I you want to listen to Celibidache it is OKay. But forgot Beethoven!!!
I think you've come up with a very good list of Eroicas. I am familiar with six of your twelve or so recommendations, and agree that all of them are top notch (Toscanini, Klemperer, Szell, Honeck, Kletzki and Scherchen). I can think of only one other I might suggest: Bernstein/NY Phil. I especially appreciate your inclusion of the Scherchen. It's been in my collection for over 40 years now (starting with a Westminster Gold budget LP), and I still play it at least a couple of times a year. It's not pretty, but it is pretty amazing. Finally, I wonder if you have an opinion on the Jordi Saval Beethoven set that came out last year (Symphonies 1-5).
I think it was recordings by Szell and Ormandy that introduced me to the Eroica when I was young. Then I heard Toscanini and Furtwangler. It wasn't until I heard the symphony live for the first time that it even dawned on me that the piece could come off badly. The classic recordings made it seem inevitable. As a native Pittsburgher, I'm proud to have the Honeck recording rated so high - deservedly so. I agree with pretty much all of your picks though I might have added Walter and Bernstein, too. Thanks for a great talk!
David, i took your advice and checked out the kletzki and Klemperer Stereo was my go to along with Szell but man is this an immensely soulful, spiritual, intensely dedicated , and superbly played version. absolutely superb and one of the greatest and now in my top 3. thank you for the recommendation.
I'm still so thrilled that we finally got to hear your take on the Eroica. Knowing that you have mixed feelings about it, I was afraid after the longish gap after your talk on the Fourth that you would skip it. As for the recordings, can you respond to why you prefer the Toscanini '53 to the more celebrated '39 (decrackled and dehissed on Naxos). By the way, you are my favorite TH-cam star. You outshine all of the board game review guys and many of them are fabulous.
Thanks very much. I frankly go for the better sonics in '53 (even if '39 is decrackled), and I think the performance has superior energy. I wouldn't say "39 is "celebrated" preferentially in any especially meaningful way,
My very first recording was one on audio cassette with Marriner and the Academy of St Martin-in-the-Fields. Don't like it now as much as some buys later on in life but it was my first one as a teenager. I played the tape over and over again. Later on in my very first car. It kept my hunger going to buy other versions and as a teenager it kept me going as well. Together with Fricsay's 9th and Asjkenazi's 5th. You are right, Dave, the music needs to be played. Period.
Thank you for a common sense talk on my personal favorite symphony. I had read discussions of those moments on either side of the return of the main theme of first movement, and wondered if my ear just wasn’t sensitive enough for them to have a big impression on me. But now I know I’m not alone. I agree with the comments that the symphony actually works _because_ the end of the symphony has a different feel from the beginning. The Schubert B flat piano sonata is another piece like that. Some people tie themselves in knots trying to relate the beginning to the end, but I think a good performance delivers each part for what it is, and it all works out.
The 'Eroica' is like 'Hamlet,' in that it has to bear the burden of becoming a key work in the Western Canon, buried under a mountain of scholarly comment, so it is very hard to approach them just as a piece of music or a play. 'Hamlet' too though a great work is not perfect, just as the 'Eroica' is not.
Yes, it IS a special symphony. Yes, it IS difficult. But these are not aesthetical categories at all. Yes, the funeral march tells about the body's decomposition to the atomic level. Yes, it is very dark. Still, this is not an aesthetical category again. If you want to get the whole symphony in a linear timeline, you can consider as the hero's life, his death, and his afterlife in commemoration. But I personally do not think that even this time-linearity is necessary or, being honest, has anything to do with this symphony. :)
I agree with what you’re saying here, it’s so interesting to hear about the reaction of people in Beethoven’s day. But we’re not in Beethoven’s day, so we shouldn’t tell people they need to react the same way. A beautiful piece even all these years later, but it hits our ears differently from his contemporaries.
One of my favourite ever versions is with the Nicolaus Esterhazy Sinfonia, conducted by Bela Drahos, on Naxos. Sometimes I find that specific conductors (actually, a large majority of them) take the first movement too slow. But Drahos' tempo is perfect. I highly recommend listening (or purchasing) it. It's paired with his eighth.
First time I have heard the Eroica Symphony comparted to the New Jersey Turnpike. We garden staters should be proud that only we have traffic patterns sufficiently tumultuous to properly convey the inner turmoil of the young conqueror, as well as the overriding chaos of a continent at total war!
David, I’m a recent subscriber and enjoy your channel very much. I’ve been listening to classical music since my Introduction to Classical Music course in March, 1987, …….for 34.5 years. I remember the first time I heard parts of Beethoven’s Eroica symphony and loved it! In the early 90s I reserved a copy of Eroica from the local library, performed by London Classical Players & Roger Norrington. I was intrigued by the fact that it was an HIP performance. I also listened to their disc of Beethoven’s symphonies 1 & 6. I still remember how underwhelming those performances were to my ears. I kept thinking, “Was this close to how these symphonies sounded in Beethoven’s day?”, and, “This sounds nothing like the beautiful Eroica I heard in class.” From memory, I’ll tell you the playing seemed good at times, but the sound of the orchestra was thin and lacking. It really was noticeable to this novice’s ears 30 years ago, especially for the Pastoral & Eroica symphonies. I thought that surely Beethoven would expect more passion in his musicians! I knew there had to be better HIP performances. It was quite a while before I listened to any more HIP performances, thanks to Norrington. I was very unimpressed. I like Szell’s Eroica with the Cleveland Orchestra, & Walter’s with the Columbia Symphony in stereo. It’s great to have so many other performances that you recommend. I’ve listened to samples of Savall’s Eroica with Le Concert des Nations (and samples from LvB sym #1, 2, 4, 5) I really like how the timpanist can be heard, compared to other performances where they are hardly audible. I’ll be awaiting your review of the Savall performances. Thank you!
Was there any musical precedent for those two assertive initial notes? If there was I'm not aware of any, though you, if anybody, might come up with one. I detect a similar call to attention at the start of Nielsen's 3rd Symphony.
There were plenty of arresting openings, if not identical ones (think of several of Haydn's "London" Symphonies). I don't find that gesture particularly special. It was, apparently, an afterthought.
The first movement of Nielsen's 3rd has always reminded me of the Eroica -- not just in the "call to attention" opening but in the sheer level of energy and the complex shifting rhythms/accents. The similarity to me is more in the emotional effect than in the themes or the compositional technique. Another less positive similarity is that like the Eroica, the Espansiva has two highly original movements followed by two that simply aren't on the same level. I still love both of these works, however.
I think the Eroica is a great symphony for the very things you find problematic! After the first two lengthy movements and in the case of the second being so dark, you need some release-something lighter and the wonderful Scherzo and the finale provide just that. Agree that Beethoven had trouble ending the work. Those last two chords do not sound “final,” but the coda is otherwise exhilarating. Szell’s account is unbeatable, but some others you didn’t mention are also favorites of mine: for a modern account terrifically played and recorded I choose Vanska/Minneapolis (before he became so microscopic); among older and more traditional ones I like Schmidt-Isserstedt’s with the Vienna Phil coupled with Szell’s Egmont excerpts on a cheap Decca Weekend CD that I fear is no longer available. As to HIP I’d still go with Gardiner because his comes across with real enthusiasm as does the accompanying Fifth.
Funny how just about a week ago I was searching up "David Hurwitz" and Beethoven's 3rd, Eroica, etc. only to regretfully find nothing but then again to learn you upload a video on that just a few days after! Thank you and many thanks to the invisible messengers! I have also been searching up "David Hurwitz" and Wieniawski a lot these past few days!!!
Great talk, Dave. And looking forward to your review of the new Orpheus Chamber box. Mine arrived today! On the Eroica, or indeed on any piece of music…..if we all agreed exactly what was great and what wasn’t everyone would write the same pieces eventually. Of course that’s ridiculous and I celebrate the different views because then we get different music and different interpretations. The biggest issue with the Eroica is that it’s set up to fail by being talked up so much. So many conductors seem to try to prove there is more than we mere mortals could ever dig out. Frankly they just need to play the effing music.
Alan McGinn I started with the Bartok on the first disc. It’s unbelievable just how tight the ensemble is. I wonder if the lack of conductor might mean they have to sacrifice flexibility in some of the bigger works - I’ll be curious to see what they do in the Vaughan Williams and Mendelssohn - but let’s see!
@@nickhamshaw1234 I have go this date very little OCO and I am exited for the box to fill a void in my collection. What I have heard thus far has impressed me a lot. I have their Rossini overtures which are just fabulous.
Unless I am mistaken David mentioning Scherchen recording: he recorded this work three times. Two with the Vienna State Opera Orchestra released on Westminster records in 1953 and 1958 respectively and one in 1965 (live performance) with the Italian-Swiss Radio Orch. The outstanding one is the earliest, the one in 1953 in mono. It is less erratic than the stereo and better played as well.
Erich Kleiber did record it twice, once in Amsterdam and once in Vienna (1953). I slightly prefer the Vienna performance, but the Amsterdam has better recorded sound. I agree 100% about the 1953 Toscanini, one of his greatest achievements. Ditto, the 1944 Furtwängler, the polar opposite of Toscanini, but compelling nevertheless. I had not heard the Szell, and by the time I got to the final coda, I was on the floor. What a KNOCKOUT of a performance! When Szell was good, he was very, VERY good!
There's a story that somebody said to Klemperer that Szell was a "machine." Klemperer responded "Yes, but he is a _very good_ machine!" I've been reading about Szell, and the thing I respect is that, though he could be a repellent bully, the musicians (at least in Cleveland) recognized his selfless dedication to the music. No scarfs for George Szell, and no machine could have conducted his amazing Wagner and that utterly extraordinary Sibelius 2nd in Tokyo, fighting against the bone cancer that was killing him.
the E/F dissonance in that development of the 1st movement is such an amazingly ferocious sound in the Furtwangler one I have (old EMI pressing) but the rest of it is just annoying to me. Thanks for putting a spotlight on Kletzki who sounds very fresh and "modern" in a sense.
For me, all four movements are boldly dramatic and very memorable. And that's enough: it has melody, drama and power. I like Toscanini in this, brisk and muscular like a great fighter, fit and fast. Not going to mention the performances that send me to sleep. Perhaps it's radical in the sense of what went before it in the literature? Can't imagine Haydn or Mozart writing anything like this. A terrible bore when played too slow by somebody who can't keep the rhythm. Furtwangler could do it slowly but still keep momentum and rhythm. Know you don't like WF, but I'm saying it anyway. Wand's later version is just about perfect but emotionally dead to my ears.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Yes I watched it all the way through and appreciated your comments on the 1944 VPO third. So yes, I was wrong to express it the way I did.
What a fine survey. Still my favorite symphony after decades, since I was a kid and thought it was the 'Erotica.' My one quarrel with Furtwangler is the scherzo is just too damn slow. It should be a joyous bubbling fountain of life, not a slow trickle.
I remember hearing the Eroica for the first time many years ago and feeling so unimpressed about it. I don't even remember which recording it was. What I do remember is thinking how disjointed it was. It really felt like a lot of "cutting and pasting" was going on. I also remember hearing the Fourth shortly afterward and being totally wowed by it. I felt it to be a more cohesive and flowing work than the third. I have since grown to love the Eroica. If anything, your review and your point about this symphony being about a "personality" in the universal sense, seems to reinforce the complexity and "disjointed" nature of human emotion. I wonder if that was Beethoven's intention all along??? Let's face face it, I would argue my life is more akin to the themes of this symphony than to his ninth...
I didn't understand why I liked the Eroica less than the 5, 6, 7 and 9 when it has an incredible aura. Beethoven himself considered it his best symphony (until the 9th). Your explanations made me understand.
Beethoven considered it his favorite. "Best" is a meaningless term in this context. Nor is Beethoven's own opinion terribly relevant. He had his own reasons which may or may not have had anything to do with the music as such.
hello David! i have paul Kletzki 1 and 5 from orquestre Baden Baden and no 6 from Kletzki and orquestre national de paris. do you like/recomend those? i have in vinyl. i got it from a colection from an old man. in the collection there are the 3d from giulini Los angeles and Bruno Walter. just heard the first 2 moovements of guilini. it's astonishingly slow, at least the 1st moovement. but i kind of like it. it's very well articulated so you still feel it mooving forward. and as it is slow you can easily follow all the ideas and their interaction with eachother.I did not hear yet walter but looking forward!! thanks for the great talk!!
I've been assuming that the "premature" horn entry over the string tremolo is a Haydnesque joke about a player coming in at the wrong bar and becoming an accidental soloist. The way that the orchestra seemingly "reprimands" the horn player says to me that this has to be a comedy bit.
For the full comic effect, you need to hear Osmo Vanska's recording. He thinks pianissimo passages should be inaudible, so the string tremolos just aren't there. It sounds like the whole orchestra stopped, wants to start again, but nobody dares to jump back in except the horn player.
I thought it was humor too, and something a bit similar is in in the middle of the 4th movement in the Fourth Symphony, when the full orchestra bouncing & bustling quiet downs temporarily, but a solo bassoon 'jumps the gun' and the whole orchestra joins in again
Many years ago, when I was becoming acquainted with the Beethoven symphonies, I bought a recording of the Eroica by Karl Bohm with the Vienna Philharmonic. It was stodgy, dull, and rather boring. My current favorite recording is by Christoph von Dohnányi. It's dramatically different--fleet and exciting while losing no drama. I love it. And I love the symphony. I think it's right up there with the higher odd numbered symphonies. I do find it incongruous that you critique it for not following the classical form while saying it's not revolutionary.
Ach, Duved, you've just made me realize even more why I adore the Eroica (although I must admit, even to a HIP person like me, Schoonderwoerd has just gone off the cliff and crashed). I saw you pooh-poohed below the "BANG BANG" opening, but together with the following strings, it's an amazing feat, and the proof is in the variance in performance. I love comparing, time and again, the first 14 bars in different recordings. What might convince you to do a talk on the first bars of the Eroica?
Horenstein may have been really bad, but did he play every single chord as arpeggios - including the opening of the symphony - like François-Xavier Roth did recently?
I had the Furtwangler's Eroica in false stereo , (Breitklang) and I hate it so much. (It was a Emi Japanese edition which I thought should be great) The stereo image, changes the place of the instruments all the time, and the sound was foggy, muddy Yeark!!! I resell it easily , and bought a mono one, on Tahra. Now I can hear the music with more details. Never mind stereo...BTW, the Furtwangler Cd cover you shows is from which label.
Szell has always been my favorite Beethoven/Mozart/Haydn conductor, ever since a high school friend told me of his greatness (that friend is now opera conductor Louis Salemno).
Yeah, I tend to agree that the Eroica has structural problems - being that after the monumental first and second movements, the final two movements feel a bit fluffy and anti-climactic. I have the same issue with Bruckner's 7th (which is still one of my faves, mind you). BUUUT: a great performance can pull it all together. I mean, I still love all the movements separately!
Hi David, While I was doing errands today I was listening to #3 in my car. It was Karajan w/ the Berlin Philharmonic. I didn’t hear the whole of it, but what I did hear sounded quite good. You must not be thrilled with it. Perhaps what I didn’t hear was lackluster or bothersome? Your thoughts please. Of course, I’ll be checking out your recommendations.
David, could you explain, if you haven’t already, what a “period style” on modern instruments consists of? Does it boil down to tempi, vibrato and strict reading of the score markings?
The first movement opens a great hall of new musical possibilities and we are privileged to be able to relive that moment. I agree the assembly of the four movements is not a great success, but then once you leave the Haydn/Mozart proportions behind you are into uncharted territory; only Brahms recovers satisfying classical balance.
Thanks! I loved this work and over the course of 1996 bought the score and like 20 different versions on CD (from Tower Records in Lincoln center lol).... was dissatisfied with all of them. They all seemed sounded very similar and ranged from meh to outright pedestrian. (the only one of those on your list was Szell, and a brief relisten confirmed its place there, at least for me. I did not like whichever Furtwangler I bought but I'm fascinated to try out the one you recommended). I booted the Kleiber VPO recording from one of my dad's LPs on a really scratchy phography to cassette and that was my pick for a long time (liked that better even when the RCBO recording was reissued on CD, don't really know why. Now's a good time to listen and reevaulate :) ) For some reason I didn't buy Toscanini until like 3 years later and it really scratched my itch. After watching this ,I relistened to it and for me it's still *the* Eroica. All that said, beyond those mentioned, I haven't heard your recommendations and am looking forward to surveying this great work again. :) I'll buy your argument that it's hard to play (and will either be great, ho hum, or bad) - and will definitely agree that the voluminous popular writings on it don't really tell you anything. (it's a milestone in musicological history and I'd imagine the academic stuff is solid..... to bad I can't understand any of it lol)
It was among Bartók's favourites. He told in the 1930s: I am still hearing Eroica with the same enthusiam as in my youth. His opinion can be a standard for us, too.
David, your Unlocking Masters book is a terrific look at the points you bring up here. However, I was hoping you'd touch on the "controversy" about what constitutes the 2nd theme in the Exposition. Is it a 1st theme followed by 3 (or 2) transitional themes then the 2nd theme comes? Or are they 3 complete separate themes? I've heard it debated so many ways. And it's interesting how conductors emphasize different elements.
They aren't "themes" in sonata form, they are "subects" defined by the keys they inhabit, and a subject can have any number of themes or motives. The transitional material (as here) may contain memorable themes as important as any in the true first or second subjects.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks for the clarification! :) I should've said the controversy regarding what is the Second SUBJECT. There's a lot of disagreement about it. (Some say the so-called "transitional themes" make up the Second Subject and the rest is an extension. And others say the Second Subject occurs later). Did you ever settle it to your satisfaction? Must be a big deal for conductors since it affects how they approach the piece, what to give weight to, etc.
@@NN-df7hl Actually I don't think it's a big deal at all. More like a musicological waste of time. Beethoven had no idea what a "second subject" was. He had no idea what "sonata form" was. He just wrote music.
Several years ago. EMI purchased underwriting on NPR's Morning Edition and All Things Considered to promote a new CD by the Eroica Trio. Many local NPR stations simply used the underwriting credits as fed to them by NPR, but some had one of their own announcers read them. Well, word must have gotten back to NPR that some of the local folks were getting them *slightly* wrong. So NPR sent out an advisory to its member stations: "In credit number (whatever), it's 'Eroica' -- not 'Erotica.'"
What I don't like about Szell's Eroica, and many other Eroica's by many different conductors, is the use of ritardando at the intense climax of the development when those syncopated chords are hammered out. I don't know if the ritardando is in the score (don't think it is but I might be wrong) but it dissipates the tension for me and ruins my enjoyment of the first movement. I much prefer it when the tempo is maintained .
You might learn to hear it as not dissipating the tension. Seriously. It's a conscious thing if you want it to be and a performance is otherwise marvelous.
I smile when you mentioned Klemperer. My dad had this set (the later EMI) and he loved his slow, weighty interpretations. I do still have this set. I drag them out occasionally, because they do have such character. And like you say, he brings out the woodwind, even though I don't think the Philharmonia, at the time had the best woodwind sound.. But great review all the same..
Speaking of the horn theme coming in prematurely ( in the first movement)- Beethoven does the same thing, but much more obviously and excitingly about four pages before the end of the Fidelio overture: the orchestra is playing a dominant 7th ( B 7) over a tonic pedal, but then the trumpets also enter 'too early' on the tonic in octaves- a sustained double forte E slicing through the upper strings and wind B7. I used to have the Karajan recording on LP back in the 70s, in which this moment was thrilling beyond belief, but hearing it these days on youtube, as I did recently, it sounds so much softer than I remember, as if they have either remastered it and taken the edge off it, or maybe it was simply that it struck me like a ton of bricks back then because it was new to me.
just bought the honeck and jarvi and 1953 toscanini (i LOVE the 1939) and szell... listened to the szell last movement coda on youtube, YOWZA... my favorite has always been vienna-e.kleiber and concertgebouw-e.kleiber, but i really love the giulini and wish you'd given it a mention...
The Eroica Boring? I've heard boring recordings and performances, but the work itself it thrilling, as most of the choices here prove. The best performance I've ever heard was Neeme Jarvi of all people in Detroit. Exciting, deep, humorous and thrilling. But for big-orchestra thrills, it's Rene Leibowitz with the Royal Philharmonic.
Probably my favourite piece of music. Movements 1,2 and 4 are miracles, and the third is a delightful romp.
I was really looking forward to this talk. I've enjoyed your discussion on each Beethoven symphony as it has been shared and this one was no exception. I also thought I'd mention that I just purchased a new e-reader and your Beethoven book was my first acquisition. It's really wonderful -- enabling me to hear works that I've known for years with "new ears" and inspiring me to fill in gaps of unexplored territory. I especially appreciate your identifying certain characteristic structures or techniques that Beethoven used across his compositions (e.g., the "bounce"). Your gift of communication is as evident in your writing as in your talks, but I would add that where your talks are wonderfully spontaneous and often funny, your writing, though no less engaging, is very polished and clear. On a personal note, your Beethoven symphony recommendations have been very validating. When I was in college (early 80s), I somewhat obsessively checked out all of the Beethoven symphony cycle records from the university library and listened for hours in search of a set that I would actually purchase. I ended up going with the Szell/Cleveland. About ten years later, in my quest for my ideal 9th, I landed on the Wand recording. It was gratifying to hear you speak so favourably about Szell's and Wand's Beethoven recordings. Thank you for continuing to enrich and encourage my ongoing exploration of great music! It has been very meaningful and a lot of fun!
Thank YOU very much for the kind endorsement. That's what makes the effort so worthwhile.
I've always liked Toscanini‘s (alleged) comment to an orchestra when rehearsing the Eroica: it’s not Hitler, it’s not Mussolini, it’s Allegro con brio.
I’m not going to say Scherchen is the best Eroica, but it’s the certainly the most entertaining and simply fun. For anyone who hasn’t heard it, I highly recommend you strap in for the ride and keep on listening.
Be sure to get his second, stereo, version.
I agree with almost everything except for the revolutionary/radical side of the piece. To our 2021 ears nothing is no more revolutionary. It has to be judge in context of the period and yes it is revolutionary in comparison with not only Mozart and Haydn but also with Beethoven first two symphonies.
Just listen to the first movement of Mozart's Symphony 40 and try to understand what radicality in dissonance, developing variation and musical structure actually is. Then try again to talk about Beethoven's third
Sorry. The 40 does not have the sheer depth and emotion the Eroica has. It is the beginning of a new world.
@@pe-peron8441😂
THAT passage in the first movement, the one you say nobody talks about is where Furtwangler always makes me silently gasp: the strings play the series of chords at the end with enormous weight, and Furtwangler makes a very deliberate ritardando which, to me, feels inherent in the music itself. It is one of those incredible moments where, in the words of Klemperer when he talked about Mahler's conducting "It couldn't be otherwise".
Brilliant work again David! I have many of the ones you cited but I was missing Szell's which I just purchased and listened too. Wow! The finale made my hair stand on end, which wouldn't be so remarkable except that I am entirely bald! Anyway, thanks again!
The music starts, the muddle in the middle, and the good ending. Great talk!
another extremely enjoyable talk. love how you explain your side and how you discourage useless comments. i went back to listen to bohm then compared them to your recommendations. i clearly noted how less flexible he was compared to say kletzki. you are making me discover new treasures and i deeply thank you. you’re also quite amusing. i just love all your videos.
I appreciate that!
Funny, those few musical exerpts of Kletzki's recording discouraged me wanting to listen to the entire Eroica by Kletzki. The example at 20:16 reminded me at Furtwängler saying (about a very strict tempo): "It sounds awfully direct!"
Well, I don't think Karl Böhm was great at Beethoven (however Böhm is well known for his Mozart recordings especially "Die Zauberflöte" with the unforgotten Fritz Wunderlich)!
I made some of my friends listen to three versions of the Eroica (my favorite Beethoven symphony) asking them which one they liked most? It was only part from the first movement by Karajan, Bernstein and Furtwängler. First mono was the main issue. There Bernstein was their favorite. But when I asked them to ignore the mono suddenly Furtwängler had their admiration! I'm not sure whether this can be called manipulation or not?
For my taste Karajan was far too fast (like also in the 5th). (I have to admit that Karajan made a great recording of Beethoven's 9th in 1947 with almost the same singers like Furtwängler's 1950 recording of the re-opening in Bayreuth!) Bernstein is excellent and without Furtwängler by far my (second) favorite. But hands down Furtwängler is simply outstanding. No matter that Dave calls Furtwängler "limited" or even a "one trick pony"! Yes, in music people have different tastes. You'll simply have to accept it. (This also is true for me. I simply have to accept that Dave has a different taste than me!)
How can anybody " not care " for this piece? I can't
Get enough of it
Shocking, isn't it?
It shocked me!@@DavesClassicalGuide
I will be the curmudgeon. It was my least favorite Beethoven symphony for many years until I heard the Von Matacic / Czech Philharmonic recording. It was too dry, and went on for too long. I do like it now (I have a Furtwangler/Vienna recroding from 1953 from the Musikverein -- not the one that Dave recommends but another one released by EMI Japan) that I just listened to and see how lyrical it is.
What do you think about De Sabata's version, with the Lpo?
That is my favourite version, on every side. Marvellous!
The first test I apply to recordings of the Eroica is whether the violin syncopation in measures 7 and 8 is clear or whether it just sounds like one long held note. Unfortunately, many recordings seem to fail on this point.
Great talk, David. Loved the intro. I can readily accept all the criticisms of the the work itself, and especially the flood of meaningless commentary. I am not as disturbed by them as you, but I get it! I especially agree with you about the qualities needed to make the piece work. Which leads me to wonder, why no mention of Karajan? I think his versions meet all your criteria. In particular: 1) Big band Beethoven, doubled winds, trumpets in the coda, taut, tense, fast! The Funeral march is terrifying. The Coda of the Finale is big! Doesn't sound thin at all. 2) It's both Toscannian and Furtwänglerian in style. Toscannini's, tautness, and strict tempi, but with a Germanic orchestral weight that Toscannini never achieved (or wanted...). Karajan wanted to be the synthesis of his two great elder role models, and I think that is evident in his Eroicas. Everything you said about the work in your intro is, I think, ably demonstrated in the first two DG sets, as well as the fabulous Sony live video from 1982. Thanks again, for such engaging videos. I really enjoy them
Thoughtful comment. I looked at the age of each of the Eroicas in this talk. Many were recorded in the 1950s, and the most recent are Tennstedt from the 1970s and Dausgaard, Jarvi and Honeck recorded after the year 2000. That leaves out the 1980s and 1990s before historically informed performance became the norm when the classical music industry were cranking out a lot of recordings. I would suggest that if you want a more modern recording with a traditional performance - dare I say it - Karajan's digital recoding on DG is very satisfying.
With one exception (9th of 1947) I like none of Karajan's Beethoven symphonies recordings! Most of them are far too fast especially the Eroica and the theme of the 5th! Also too fast but still better than Karajan at the 5th is Carlos Kleiber. By the way Carlos Kleiber made a very lively recording of Beethoven's 4th. Carlos Kleiber's 7th recording I rate between the excellent 4th and the mediocre 5th. I must add that Carlos Kleiber is one of my favorite conductors!
After listening to your extensive opening I got the impression you were not talking about the symphony but about all the talk about it. That is not the fault of the symphony nor Beethoven's. He just wrote a good piece of music with some flaws perhaps but considering that so many people love it without all the fuzz of the musicologists, its flaws are minor and the whole symphony achieves its goal. When I heard it for the first time I was blown away by it, especially the funeral march, and I had not read the liner notes. So indeed: talk less and listen more to the music
That is exactly my point and you certainly "got it." We need to distinguish between the music itself and the mountain of verbiage that gets said about it.
I thouroughly enjoyed listening to your presentation.
Ok, I tried the Szell (mvt 1), Honeck (full) and Monteux (full). I loved the Honeck the most. His finale was really powerful for me, not in terms of strength but in terms of its ability to effectively highlight the wide variety of emotions that you mentioned was one of the most impressive aspects of the Eroica. The jumping from happy to sad and all emotions in between is certainly why I love the Eroica. I shamelessly admit it's my favourite Beethoven symphony after the Sublime Ninth. It was a lot of fun trying out some non-Fricsay Beethoven (which I have loved so much from your videos!)
Less than an hour ago I listened to Szell's recording. It's been years Dave, but my God! the music leaps out the gate like a thoroughbred race horse from the first note and makes you feel as if there's no other way of playing it. If ever there was a perfect example of how humane Szell could be beneath that dictatorial manner of his, it's in the second movement. It's a bit quicker than some would like, but it truly shines, and you can hear ALL the notes from top to bottom. It's not an exercise in precision, it's gloriously humane music. That movement alone, and Szell's ability with Haydn, in my opinion, buries the lie that he was some kind of musical conducting machine devoid of human feeling. It's nonsense! And the last two movements of his Eroica really shows off how great the Cleveland Orchestra was in its prime, especially in the pointed beauty of the woodwinds and the brass. In my early days I was an unabashed Klemperer fan of this work and felt nobody on Earth could play it as well as he. Now after a 20 year absence of hearing Szell's performance, and an older man, I find Szell's just so inevitably "right." If ever there was a Desert Island Disc of Beethoven's Eroica, Szell's is truly the one to be shipwrecked with. Thanks so much for the review Dave. I really appreciate it. As many times as you've plugged the Kletzki cycle of Beethoven, you're inching me that much closer to buying my God, yet another Beethoven cycle. Time to find an "overflow room." :)
So glad you enjoyed it!
I've listened to many, many, many recordings of B3 over the years and attended many live performances of this piece (even performed it (bassoon 1) ) and I don't think I have to tell you what a beast this monumental piece of music is to perform with even a miniscule modicum of success. Technically the piece from start to finish is a train wreck waiting to happen. So to begin with you need an orchestra with the highest level of precision to fluidly pull off the intricate phrasing from one musical idea to the next. Without a doubt, Szell and the Clevelanders fit the bill from start to finish and Szell knew what a shiny diamond the CO was with him at the helm. With an incredibly impressive collection of woodwind players, all world class virtuosos in their own right, and a phenomenal horn section led by arguably the greatest horn virtuoso of that era, Myron Bloom, Szell let the music lead his players to such an inspired performance, capped off by arguably the greatest recorded "Eroica" finale of all time. Szell/CO should be the gold standard for the "Eroica" for a real long time.
It's time for Tinnitus Recordings to issue "The Vocal Art of David Hurwitz."
I think the chamber music "partner piece" to the Eroica is the razumovsky OP 59 No.1. The music contained therein is also absolutely radical in scope and detail. That work I would argue is perfectly balanced because there is a substantive ,roving scherzo after the massive opening movement. The final also takes into regard the poignancy of the adagio.Its one of Beethoven's greatest works imo
It's true. These two works are often compared. I think especially because of the first movement which in both works has a gigantic development. Personally I find the quartet more successful and more beautiful. And I also find that the OP 59 n ° 1 is one of the greatest works of Beethoven (with the last quartets, the last 4 sonatas and the 9th symphony)
I was wondering if I was crazy because I have always loved the Szell performance and I had no idea whether it was going to show up. You often hear people say that Szell is best with other orchestras besides Cleveland, but I've always thought that the Szell/Cleveland Eroica was a testament to the high level of music making happening in Cleveland under his helm. What makes his interpretation work for me is how deftly he characterizes each movement. The Eroica stands on the cusp of, and even points to, the era of program music to come in the later 19th century. Szell perfectly captures this "zwischenpunkt" between the classical era upon which Beethoven is innovating, and the movement towards programmatic representation in music that takes over later.
I did not write the above and don't know how it appears here under my moniker.
Great content! I am a (late period) Beethoven fanatic and have been going through so many of your videos on that topic. Eroica was certainly one of my early favorites but I have distanced myself from it a lot since then. Interesting to hear why.
of course, I understand David's point, but precisely the "grace" of "Eroica" is that it is a work of "transition", imperfect and at times anti-musical or beyond the possibilities of the time in which it was made. composed. The first version I heard was the one by Szell/Cleveland and Szell seems to have had no qualms about showing the score with all its scope and imperfections, and I confess that listening to it disconcerted me in parts. In the same way, over time (and I don't know if it's the right thing to do) I tended to listen to the works as "problems to be solved", and I think that this enriches the listening perspectives and, I believe, increases enjoyment and at the same time makes us be more selective.
Who am I to disagree with my favorite music critic, but David will never convince me that the Eroica wasn't radical or lessen my sheer enjoyment of this symphony from beginning to end.
I didn't interpret his words as denying that it was radical, I interpret it as him saying that it isn't radical now, since we have had Wagner, Mahler, Schoenberg, etc.
Honeck isn’t just the accents, To my ear it’s how he tunes and voices the chords, especially in what I’m now calling the 25 car pileup on the Jersey turnpike section of the first movement and it gives them a dissonant crunch that you don’t often get. Also my favorite finale, the winds halfway through before the horn comes in with the big tune.
I adore Järvi, i bought it at a used record store in Michigan 9 years ago and it absolutely blew me away, I don’t think any cycle from the last 10-15 years has come close to what he did, it’s a glorious edition to the discography.
My fav Cleveland eroica is actually Dohnanyi, better sound, and Dohnanyi makes more of the trumpet/timpani doubling of the triplets in the coda of the first movement more than Szell, and I find that more satisfying, but the orchestra still at that point knew how to play it from Szell.
I loved this talk Dave. Thank you.
80’s Telarc sound > 60’s Columbia sound. 3rd movement the Cleveland 80’s Horn section sounds better than Szell
My wild card favorite is Mariner and his gang. Give it a try. Schubertian and at times Mozartian.
Another superb, educational video - thank you so much, David. I'm systematically going through your list here, listening to each recommendation. So far, Erich Kleiber's 3rd stands out, for me, as the one that moves me to the most repeat plays - it's simply stupendous. By the way, Pristine Classical has cleaned up and improved the sound for Kleiber's 3rd, making it sound fantastic.
The "Funeral March" was a hasty substitution by Erich Leinsdorf and the Boston Symphony when their concert was interrupted by the announcement from the stage of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963. I was in junior high school at the time and heard the tape-delayed concert on the radio two or three days later. I remember the announcement followed by gasps from the crowd and rustling sounds that gradually died down after the music commenced. I presume the tape is still in the Boston Symphony archives.
Coincidentally, RCA released the "Eroica" on L.P. with Leinsdorf and the Boston Symphony the same year-- presumably recorded before the assassination. The music would have been fresh in everyone's mind... .
A live recording of that afternoon is here on TH-cam. Someone put the radio broadcast on here from BSO Hall. It is gut wreching to listen to the crowd.
Let's not forget what David has done here for music lovers. He has just talked for almost 50 minutes about a symphony that he can struggle to enjoy at times, knowing that many music lovers out there do love the Eroica. Thank you for this wonderful chat David!
Thank YOU for putting up with it!
@@DavesClassicalGuide My pleasure!
In my early days of listening to the Eroica, I used to prefer Gardiner's version with O.R.R. It's in period instruments and really fast, clear, and is incessant in its want to keep pushing forward, which was something different from the Eroicas I had listened on youtube. After checking out your channel, I found out about Honeck's version and after one listening it has become my new reference.
I would like to mention an anecdote about the Honeck recording. When I was first listening to it, I was outside walking. The sky was clear all day. However, the moment the fugue in the second movement started, there was a huge rumble in the sky and as soon as the brass and timpani enter, it started pouring! Now, it was obviously a coincidence but the whole moment that the music and the atmosphere created was simply breathtaking. I still get shivers thinking about that moment!
Oh God yes, the finale is unbelievable. I used to love his seventh too.
I don't like Gardiner's Eroica, with the exception of the finale.
I would have been disappointed if you hadn't ended with the Szell/Cleveland. But you didn't disappoint me. When I was in high school, I listened to a performance of the Third with Szell and the Cleveland "live from Severance Hall" on the radio and I was transfixed. Still remember it.
Was it that 25 car pile up that prompted Beethoven to consider calling the symphony "The Blown Apart" ?
Ouch!
@@DavesClassicalGuide From a Snoopy line in an old Peanuts Sunday comic strip: Josephine's advice when her husband departs for Waterloo: "Don't get blown apart, Bonaparte".
Dave-Koussevitsky and the Boston Symphony Orchestra did an exciting recording of the Eroica around 1945, I think. I thought that the last movement was exciting, because I knew that it was going to be an exciting ending. which it was. I like the beginning of the symphony. What do you think of that recording?
Fantastic talk, David. Szell - yes. Klemperer - yes. I reckon that if LvB had never ascribed any tribute to it, in the first place, all of the verbiage that we're now stuck with, would never have come about. Anyway, what is, is what is.
I actually believe his first symphony is more coherent and - can I say 'confident' in terms of rule-breaking; the opening clashing chord is surely a sign of what Beethoven was about.
to be clear: The Monteux box contains 2 3rds: the other is with Vienna, and to me is worth listening to for the clarity of the second violin parts which you don't often hear (and a pretty good performance too) Eloquence really knows what they're doing in their selection of recordings. Thanks for pointing this release out, Dave. not sure if this was in wide release in the U S. when it came out in the '60s.
Finally found my favorite recording of this piece . It is also with Szell but with the Czech Philarmonic live . The transparent texture despite the not so great sound is still increbible . And that coda they do really comme close in reproducing the Cleveland studio recording , something Cleveland couldn't even do live with Szell :P
The publication of the 3rd has been sooner than I expected! 😉 Thank you so much for the great video.
I grew up with Toscanini. Maybe this is why I never felt strongly about the problems that David highlights in the interesting introductory talk. I also enjoyed Furtwanglers way of leading back into the recapitulation.
Glad to see Klemp was still up there after all these years, along with Szell. Klemperer most definitely for his masterful grasp of the work's epic narrative arc; Szell for the utter almost blinding clarity . I listened the other day to Szell and (unsmiling) Bohm one after the other because I was in the mood for the Eroica and I thought Bohm's held up very well indeed. Poor old Karl always gets the short end of the stick, but I'm glad you did a review of the DG box set!
I got the Kletzki cycle on your recommendation and have been loving it. Just the other day I was thinking about how the winds articulate the opening theme in the third movement and how charming that was. Literally the highlight of the entire account for me.
So happy you're happy!
Klemperer y Walter.
a couple of trivia items:
1. Jarvi's Bremen orchestra uses valveless Bach-type long trumpets apparent in the video versions of the Beethoven symphonies. Everything else seems to be standard issue modern instruments.
2. Years ago, rumor had it that the Vienna State Opera Orchestra was the name slapped onto recordings of the Vienna Philharmonic when the conductor was deemed of lesser fame or talent. don't know if this is true or not I do know that the orchestra's by-laws state that a musician must play in the opera orchestra for 3 years before trying out for the Philharmonic, though there may be exceptions.
Therefore, in theory, all members of the Philharmonic are (were) members of the opera orchestra, though all members of the opera orchestra are NOT members of the Philharmonic. (Whew!)
Dave, I'm new to the channel and delighted with your videos. My first Eroica was given me in my Easter basket when I was in the fourth grade (now some 41 years ago as I am just turned 50 last week). It was a cassette of Szell/Cleveland and my very first classical recording all-my-own. One part took my breath away and made me sit up: your "foggy Jersey turnpike" moment (what I called in my callow youth the "train" moment because it chuggs off at the end). Though you complain no one mentions that segment, it was MY Eroica moment. Szell/Cleveland is the recording I have turned to again and again throughout my life.
In college I imprinted on Toscanini's Beethoven cycle and have come to appreciate Szell under your tutelage. Inthink the fast tempos helped to grasp the overall structure of the music. I tried Klemperer but it seemed monotonous and excessively metronomic. And lets face it, the sound is not lush on these early recordings. I have, however, really enjoyed the following: Chailly, Masur, von Karajan, Colin Davis, Barenboim/Berlin Staatskapelle, and, yes, even Thielemann/VPO. In all these recordings the orchestras sound gorgeous, and I now also appreciate slower tempos. Maybe i just love the Eroica. It is a pretty good piece of music after all LOL.
Dave, wondering what you think about the Celibidache version on EMI (Munich, 1987). It's a very polarizing interpretation. My brain says that Beethoven would have been throwing things at Sergiu, and I know that some of the tempi are remarkably slow (Funeral March = 19:15?) but I can't help but love the overwhelming sonority of this performance. Should I seek counseling?
No, but it sucks.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I was afraid you were going to say that. Oh well I stay out of the ward another week.
@@DavesClassicalGuide If yyou want to listen to Beethoven choose another version. I you want to listen to Celibidache it is OKay. But forgot Beethoven!!!
I think you've come up with a very good list of Eroicas. I am familiar with six of your twelve or so recommendations, and agree that all of them are top notch (Toscanini, Klemperer, Szell, Honeck, Kletzki and Scherchen). I can think of only one other I might suggest: Bernstein/NY Phil. I especially appreciate your inclusion of the Scherchen. It's been in my collection for over 40 years now (starting with a Westminster Gold budget LP), and I still play it at least a couple of times a year. It's not pretty, but it is pretty amazing.
Finally, I wonder if you have an opinion on the Jordi Saval Beethoven set that came out last year (Symphonies 1-5).
Review coming...
I think it was recordings by Szell and Ormandy that introduced me to the Eroica when I was young. Then I heard Toscanini and Furtwangler. It wasn't until I heard the symphony live for the first time that it even dawned on me that the piece could come off badly. The classic recordings made it seem inevitable. As a native Pittsburgher, I'm proud to have the Honeck recording rated so high - deservedly so. I agree with pretty much all of your picks though I might have added Walter and Bernstein, too. Thanks for a great talk!
I might have added another dozen! But 12 was enough, I think.
Your selection is spot-on. I would have added Matacic with the Czech Philharmonic. An all-time great performance, up there with Kleiber and al.
Is the Matacic performance from March 15th to 18th, 1959? I am seeing he recorded it more than once with Czech Philharmonic. Thanks
David, i took your advice and checked out the kletzki and Klemperer Stereo was my go to along with Szell but man is this an immensely soulful, spiritual, intensely dedicated , and superbly played version. absolutely superb and one of the greatest and now in my top 3. thank you for the recommendation.
You're welcome.
I'm still so thrilled that we finally got to hear your take on the Eroica. Knowing that you have mixed feelings about it, I was afraid after the longish gap after your talk on the Fourth that you would skip it. As for the recordings, can you respond to why you prefer the Toscanini '53 to the more celebrated '39 (decrackled and dehissed on Naxos). By the way, you are my favorite TH-cam star. You outshine all of the board game review guys and many of them are fabulous.
Thanks very much. I frankly go for the better sonics in '53 (even if '39 is decrackled), and I think the performance has superior energy. I wouldn't say "39 is "celebrated" preferentially in any especially meaningful way,
My very first recording was one on audio cassette with Marriner and the Academy of St Martin-in-the-Fields. Don't like it now as much as some buys later on in life but it was my first one as a teenager. I played the tape over and over again. Later on in my very first car. It kept my hunger going to buy other versions and as a teenager it kept me going as well. Together with Fricsay's 9th and Asjkenazi's 5th. You are right, Dave, the music needs to be played. Period.
Thank you for a common sense talk on my personal favorite symphony. I had read discussions of those moments on either side of the return of the main theme of first movement, and wondered if my ear just wasn’t sensitive enough for them to have a big impression on me. But now I know I’m not alone.
I agree with the comments that the symphony actually works _because_ the end of the symphony has a different feel from the beginning. The Schubert B flat piano sonata is another piece like that. Some people tie themselves in knots trying to relate the beginning to the end, but I think a good performance delivers each part for what it is, and it all works out.
The 'Eroica' is like 'Hamlet,' in that it has to bear the burden of becoming a key work in the Western Canon, buried under a mountain of scholarly comment, so it is very hard to approach them just as a piece of music or a play. 'Hamlet' too though a great work is not perfect, just as the 'Eroica' is not.
Yes, it IS a special symphony. Yes, it IS difficult. But these are not aesthetical categories at all.
Yes, the funeral march tells about the body's decomposition to the atomic level. Yes, it is very dark. Still, this is not an aesthetical category again.
If you want to get the whole symphony in a linear timeline, you can consider as the hero's life, his death, and his afterlife in commemoration. But I personally do not think that even this time-linearity is necessary or, being honest, has anything to do with this symphony. :)
The partitioned lifeline idea is quite nice, I'll probably think of that any time I listen to the symphony from now on
And established E-flat major as the "heroic" key for the next two centuries.
I felt like this for a long time until I guess I hit on one of the excellent performances (Blomstedt/SFS), and now I love it.
I agree with what you’re saying here, it’s so interesting to hear about the reaction of people in Beethoven’s day. But we’re not in Beethoven’s day, so we shouldn’t tell people they need to react the same way. A beautiful piece even all these years later, but it hits our ears differently from his contemporaries.
One of my favourite ever versions is with the Nicolaus Esterhazy Sinfonia, conducted by Bela Drahos, on Naxos. Sometimes I find that specific conductors (actually, a large majority of them) take the first movement too slow. But Drahos' tempo is perfect. I highly recommend listening (or purchasing) it. It's paired with his eighth.
I was mostly familiar with your picks but thanks for the tip on Kletzki/CPO - really loving this one.
First time I have heard the Eroica Symphony comparted to the New Jersey Turnpike. We garden staters should be proud that only we have traffic patterns sufficiently tumultuous to properly convey the inner turmoil of the young conqueror, as well as the overriding chaos of a continent at total war!
David, I’m a recent subscriber and enjoy your channel very much. I’ve been listening to classical music since my Introduction to Classical Music course in March, 1987, …….for 34.5 years. I remember the first time I heard parts of Beethoven’s Eroica symphony and loved it! In the early 90s I reserved a copy of Eroica from the local library, performed by London Classical Players & Roger Norrington. I was intrigued by the fact that it was an HIP performance. I also listened to their disc of Beethoven’s symphonies 1 & 6. I still remember how underwhelming those performances were to my ears. I kept thinking, “Was this close to how these symphonies sounded in Beethoven’s day?”, and, “This sounds nothing like the beautiful Eroica I heard in class.” From memory, I’ll tell you the playing seemed good at times, but the sound of the orchestra was thin and lacking. It really was noticeable to this novice’s ears 30 years ago, especially for the Pastoral & Eroica symphonies. I thought that surely Beethoven would expect more passion in his musicians! I knew there had to be better HIP performances. It was quite a while before I listened to any more HIP performances, thanks to Norrington. I was very unimpressed.
I like Szell’s Eroica with the Cleveland Orchestra, & Walter’s with the Columbia Symphony in stereo. It’s great to have so many other performances that you recommend. I’ve listened to samples of Savall’s Eroica with Le Concert des Nations (and samples from LvB sym #1, 2, 4, 5) I really like how the timpanist can be heard, compared to other performances where they are hardly audible. I’ll be awaiting your review of the Savall performances. Thank you!
I also love the Szell/Cleveland stereo recording. I also I enjoy Chailly’s Eroica. So who is Snickerdoodle?
Yes, Klemperer, but my goodness his Royal Danish Orch 1957 mono on Testament is beyond hot, should one want to seek it out. A jaw-dropper, IMNSHO.
That 1957 mono performance is indeed on fire.
Thank you for leaving out Gardiner!
It was easy.
Was there any musical precedent for those two assertive initial notes? If there was I'm not aware of any, though you, if anybody, might come up with one. I detect a similar call to attention at the start of Nielsen's 3rd Symphony.
There were plenty of arresting openings, if not identical ones (think of several of Haydn's "London" Symphonies). I don't find that gesture particularly special. It was, apparently, an afterthought.
The first movement of Nielsen's 3rd has always reminded me of the Eroica -- not just in the "call to attention" opening but in the sheer level of energy and the complex shifting rhythms/accents. The similarity to me is more in the emotional effect than in the themes or the compositional technique. Another less positive similarity is that like the Eroica, the Espansiva has two highly original movements followed by two that simply aren't on the same level. I still love both of these works, however.
I think the Eroica is a great symphony for the very things you find problematic! After the first two lengthy movements and in the case of the second being so dark, you need some release-something lighter and the wonderful Scherzo and the finale provide just that. Agree that Beethoven had trouble ending the work. Those last two chords do not sound “final,” but the coda is otherwise exhilarating. Szell’s account is unbeatable, but some others you didn’t mention are also favorites of mine: for a modern account terrifically played and recorded I choose Vanska/Minneapolis (before he became so microscopic); among older and more traditional ones I like Schmidt-Isserstedt’s with the Vienna Phil coupled with Szell’s Egmont excerpts on a cheap Decca Weekend CD that I fear is no longer available. As to HIP I’d still go with Gardiner because his comes across with real enthusiasm as does the accompanying Fifth.
I totally agree with you
Funny how just about a week ago I was searching up "David Hurwitz" and Beethoven's 3rd, Eroica, etc. only to regretfully find nothing but then again to learn you upload a video on that just a few days after! Thank you and many thanks to the invisible messengers!
I have also been searching up "David Hurwitz" and Wieniawski a lot these past few days!!!
You're welcome. Don't hold your breath about Wieniawski!
Great talk, Dave. And looking forward to your review of the new Orpheus Chamber box. Mine arrived today! On the Eroica, or indeed on any piece of music…..if we all agreed exactly what was great and what wasn’t everyone would write the same pieces eventually. Of course that’s ridiculous and I celebrate the different views because then we get different music and different interpretations. The biggest issue with the Eroica is that it’s set up to fail by being talked up so much. So many conductors seem to try to prove there is more than we mere mortals could ever dig out. Frankly they just need to play the effing music.
Hey nick. My Orpheus chamber box is en route and can’t wait to get my hands on it.
Alan McGinn I started with the Bartok on the first disc. It’s unbelievable just how tight the ensemble is. I wonder if the lack of conductor might mean they have to sacrifice flexibility in some of the bigger works - I’ll be curious to see what they do in the Vaughan Williams and Mendelssohn - but let’s see!
@@nickhamshaw1234 I have go this date very little OCO and I am exited for the box to fill a void in my collection. What I have heard thus far has impressed me a lot. I have their Rossini overtures which are just fabulous.
Unless I am mistaken David mentioning Scherchen recording: he recorded this work three times. Two with the Vienna State Opera Orchestra released on Westminster records in 1953 and 1958 respectively and one in 1965 (live performance) with the Italian-Swiss Radio Orch.
The outstanding one is the earliest, the one in 1953 in mono. It is less erratic than the stereo and better played as well.
Erich Kleiber did record it twice, once in Amsterdam and once in Vienna (1953). I slightly prefer the Vienna performance, but the Amsterdam has better recorded sound. I agree 100% about the 1953 Toscanini, one of his greatest achievements. Ditto, the 1944 Furtwängler, the polar opposite of Toscanini, but compelling nevertheless. I had not heard the Szell, and by the time I got to the final coda, I was on the floor. What a KNOCKOUT of a performance! When Szell was good, he was very, VERY good!
There's a story that somebody said to Klemperer that Szell was a "machine." Klemperer responded "Yes, but he is a _very good_ machine!" I've been reading about Szell, and the thing I respect is that, though he could be a repellent bully, the musicians (at least in Cleveland) recognized his selfless dedication to the music. No scarfs for George Szell, and no machine could have conducted his amazing Wagner and that utterly extraordinary Sibelius 2nd in Tokyo, fighting against the bone cancer that was killing him.
the E/F dissonance in that development of the 1st movement is such an amazingly ferocious sound in the Furtwangler one I have (old EMI pressing) but the rest of it is just annoying to me. Thanks for putting a spotlight on Kletzki who sounds very fresh and "modern" in a sense.
For me, all four movements are boldly dramatic and very memorable. And that's enough: it has melody, drama and power. I like Toscanini in this, brisk and muscular like a great fighter, fit and fast. Not going to mention the performances that send me to sleep. Perhaps it's radical in the sense of what went before it in the literature? Can't imagine Haydn or Mozart writing anything like this. A terrible bore when played too slow by somebody who can't keep the rhythm. Furtwangler could do it slowly but still keep momentum and rhythm. Know you don't like WF, but I'm saying it anyway. Wand's later version is just about perfect but emotionally dead to my ears.
Did you bother to watch the video, re: WF?
@@DavesClassicalGuide Yes I watched it all the way through and appreciated your comments on the 1944 VPO third. So yes, I was wrong to express it the way I did.
What a fine survey. Still my favorite symphony after decades, since I was a kid and thought it was the 'Erotica.'
My one quarrel with Furtwangler is the scherzo is just too damn slow. It should be a joyous bubbling fountain of life, not a slow trickle.
I remember hearing the Eroica for the first time many years ago and feeling so unimpressed about it. I don't even remember which recording it was. What I do remember is thinking how disjointed it was. It really felt like a lot of "cutting and pasting" was going on. I also remember hearing the Fourth shortly afterward and being totally wowed by it. I felt it to be a more cohesive and flowing work than the third. I have since grown to love the Eroica. If anything, your review and your point about this symphony being about a "personality" in the universal sense, seems to reinforce the complexity and "disjointed" nature of human emotion. I wonder if that was Beethoven's intention all along??? Let's face face it, I would argue my life is more akin to the themes of this symphony than to his ninth...
I didn't understand why I liked the Eroica less than the 5, 6, 7 and 9 when it has an incredible aura. Beethoven himself considered it his best symphony (until the 9th). Your explanations made me understand.
Beethoven considered it his favorite. "Best" is a meaningless term in this context. Nor is Beethoven's own opinion terribly relevant. He had his own reasons which may or may not have had anything to do with the music as such.
@@DavesClassicalGuide You're right ! I just checked. He considered her to be his favorite. Thanks for correcting me.
hello David! i have paul Kletzki 1 and 5 from orquestre Baden Baden and no 6 from Kletzki and orquestre national de paris. do you like/recomend those? i have in vinyl. i got it from a colection from an old man.
in the collection there are the 3d from giulini Los angeles and Bruno Walter. just heard the first 2 moovements of guilini. it's astonishingly slow, at least the 1st moovement. but i kind of like it. it's very well articulated so you still feel it mooving forward. and as it is slow you can easily follow all the ideas and their interaction with eachother.I did not hear yet walter but looking forward!! thanks for the great talk!!
I've been assuming that the "premature" horn entry over the string tremolo is a Haydnesque joke about a player coming in at the wrong bar and becoming an accidental soloist. The way that the orchestra seemingly "reprimands" the horn player says to me that this has to be a comedy bit.
Very possibly.
For the full comic effect, you need to hear Osmo Vanska's recording. He thinks pianissimo passages should be inaudible, so the string tremolos just aren't there. It sounds like the whole orchestra stopped, wants to start again, but nobody dares to jump back in except the horn player.
@@tomross5347 I know. I've been complaining about that for years. It was the beginning of his mannerist phase.
I thought it was humor too, and something a bit similar is in in the middle of the 4th movement in the Fourth Symphony, when the full orchestra bouncing & bustling quiet downs temporarily, but a solo bassoon 'jumps the gun' and the whole orchestra joins in again
Many years ago, when I was becoming acquainted with the Beethoven symphonies, I bought a recording of the Eroica by Karl Bohm with the Vienna Philharmonic. It was stodgy, dull, and rather boring. My current favorite recording is by Christoph von Dohnányi. It's dramatically different--fleet and exciting while losing no drama. I love it. And I love the symphony. I think it's right up there with the higher odd numbered symphonies. I do find it incongruous that you critique it for not following the classical form while saying it's not revolutionary.
Boy did you miss the point. That isn't what I said at at all.
Some very insightful points here. Much appreciated
Ach, Duved, you've just made me realize even more why I adore the Eroica (although I must admit, even to a HIP person like me, Schoonderwoerd has just gone off the cliff and crashed). I saw you pooh-poohed below the "BANG BANG" opening, but together with the following strings, it's an amazing feat, and the proof is in the variance in performance. I love comparing, time and again, the first 14 bars in different recordings. What might convince you to do a talk on the first bars of the Eroica?
A cure for MS?
@@DavesClassicalGuide But then who'll broadcast from the dialysis room? Can we settle on world peace instead?
Horenstein may have been really bad, but did he play every single chord as arpeggios - including the opening of the symphony - like François-Xavier Roth did recently?
Not intentionally...
@@DavesClassicalGuide HA!
I had the Furtwangler's Eroica in false stereo , (Breitklang) and I hate it so much. (It was a Emi Japanese edition which I thought should be great) The stereo image, changes the place of the instruments all the time, and the sound was foggy, muddy
Yeark!!! I resell it easily , and bought a mono one, on Tahra. Now I can hear the music with more details. Never mind stereo...BTW, the Furtwangler Cd cover you shows is from which label.
Tahra. Inside the box.
I had never heard of, nor would I in my remaining years ever been likely to come across that Scherchen recording. What a revelation.
It's great listening to your explanation of why this symphony wasn't revolutionary, it was quite interesting as it explains why it was; thanks.
Great talk as always David. Are these “Classics Today” shirts that you’re wearing, purchasable?
They will be shortly.
And as as they become available I for one will be sporting my very own Ct shirt.
Szell has always been my favorite Beethoven/Mozart/Haydn conductor, ever since a high school friend told me of his greatness (that friend is now opera conductor Louis Salemno).
Yeah, I tend to agree that the Eroica has structural problems - being that after the monumental first and second movements, the final two movements feel a bit fluffy and anti-climactic. I have the same issue with Bruckner's 7th (which is still one of my faves, mind you). BUUUT: a great performance can pull it all together. I mean, I still love all the movements separately!
Hi David, While I was doing errands today I was listening to #3 in my car. It was Karajan w/ the Berlin Philharmonic. I didn’t hear the whole of it, but what I did hear sounded quite good. You must not be thrilled with it. Perhaps what I didn’t hear was lackluster or bothersome? Your thoughts please. Of course, I’ll be checking out your recommendations.
There are several Karajan/Berlin Eroicas, so I'm not in a position to comment. What matters is that you enjoyed it.
@@DavesClassicalGuideThanks David. Are there any of the “several” you’d recommend? I’m guessing not since you didn’t mention Karajan in the video.
Uncle David doing the Eroica, my Friday has just been made. Fresh coffee brewed, pen and notebook in hand - go !
David, could you explain, if you haven’t already, what a “period style” on modern instruments consists of? Does it boil down to tempi, vibrato and strict reading of the score markings?
Basically--applying the stylistic parameters common to period instrument performances. You have summed it up pretty well.
As a young man, my first encounter with Beethoven was the Eroica with Erich Leinsdorf and the Boston Symphony. It was an eye opener
The first movement opens a great hall of new musical possibilities and we are privileged to be able to relive that moment. I agree the assembly of the four movements is not a great success, but then once you leave the Haydn/Mozart proportions behind you are into uncharted territory; only Brahms recovers satisfying classical balance.
I did write the above
Thanks! I loved this work and over the course of 1996 bought the score and like 20 different versions on CD (from Tower Records in Lincoln center lol).... was dissatisfied with all of them. They all seemed sounded very similar and ranged from meh to outright pedestrian. (the only one of those on your list was Szell, and a brief relisten confirmed its place there, at least for me. I did not like whichever Furtwangler I bought but I'm fascinated to try out the one you recommended). I booted the Kleiber VPO recording from one of my dad's LPs on a really scratchy phography to cassette and that was my pick for a long time (liked that better even when the RCBO recording was reissued on CD, don't really know why. Now's a good time to listen and reevaulate :) )
For some reason I didn't buy Toscanini until like 3 years later and it really scratched my itch. After watching this ,I relistened to it and for me it's still *the* Eroica.
All that said, beyond those mentioned, I haven't heard your recommendations and am looking forward to surveying this great work again. :) I'll buy your argument that it's hard to play (and will either be great, ho hum, or bad) - and will definitely agree that the voluminous popular writings on it don't really tell you anything. (it's a milestone in musicological history and I'd imagine the academic stuff is solid..... to bad I can't understand any of it lol)
It was among Bartók's favourites. He told in the 1930s: I am still hearing Eroica with the same enthusiam as in my youth.
His opinion can be a standard for us, too.
@@markodern789
???
David, your Unlocking Masters book is a terrific look at the points you bring up here. However, I was hoping you'd touch on the "controversy" about what constitutes the 2nd theme in the Exposition. Is it a 1st theme followed by 3 (or 2) transitional themes then the 2nd theme comes? Or are they 3 complete separate themes? I've heard it debated so many ways. And it's interesting how conductors emphasize different elements.
They aren't "themes" in sonata form, they are "subects" defined by the keys they inhabit, and a subject can have any number of themes or motives. The transitional material (as here) may contain memorable themes as important as any in the true first or second subjects.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks for the clarification! :) I should've said the controversy regarding what is the Second SUBJECT. There's a lot of disagreement about it. (Some say the so-called "transitional themes" make up the Second Subject and the rest is an extension. And others say the Second Subject occurs later). Did you ever settle it to your satisfaction? Must be a big deal for conductors since it affects how they approach the piece, what to give weight to, etc.
@@NN-df7hl Actually I don't think it's a big deal at all. More like a musicological waste of time. Beethoven had no idea what a "second subject" was. He had no idea what "sonata form" was. He just wrote music.
Several years ago. EMI purchased underwriting on NPR's Morning Edition and All Things Considered to promote a new CD by the Eroica Trio. Many local NPR stations simply used the underwriting credits as fed to them by NPR, but some had one of their own announcers read them. Well, word must have gotten back to NPR that some of the local folks were getting them *slightly* wrong. So NPR sent out an advisory to its member stations: "In credit number (whatever), it's 'Eroica' -- not 'Erotica.'"
Would that it had been otherwise...
Yes Yes Yes to maestro Szell not only 3rd, but also 5th and complete symphony set!!!
What I don't like about Szell's Eroica, and many other Eroica's by many different conductors, is the use of ritardando at the intense climax of the development when those syncopated chords are hammered out. I don't know if the ritardando is in the score (don't think it is but I might be wrong) but it dissipates the tension for me and ruins my enjoyment of the first movement. I much prefer it when the tempo is maintained .
You might learn to hear it as not dissipating the tension. Seriously. It's a conscious thing if you want it to be and a performance is otherwise marvelous.
have you forgotten Barbirolli? he is great !! it is my second alternative to Klempi
Um, no, I didn't forget, but you are very much an outlier as regards the "Eroica" (which of course is just fine).
Great topic! My fave...the Hanover Band (nimbus) performance. It's safe to say, it's in my DNA. :)
I smile when you mentioned Klemperer. My dad had this set (the later EMI) and he loved his slow, weighty interpretations. I do still have this set. I drag them out occasionally, because they do have such character. And like you say, he brings out the woodwind, even though I don't think the Philharmonia, at the time had the best woodwind sound.. But great review all the same..
Mi padre tenía dos sets de vinilos de las 9 sinfonías: Klemperer y Bruno Walter, ambas en stereo.
Speaking of the horn theme coming in prematurely ( in the first movement)- Beethoven does the same thing, but much more obviously and excitingly about four pages before the end of the Fidelio overture: the orchestra is playing a dominant 7th ( B 7) over a tonic pedal, but then the trumpets also enter 'too early' on the tonic in octaves- a sustained double forte E slicing through the upper strings and wind B7. I used to have the Karajan recording on LP back in the 70s, in which this moment was thrilling beyond belief, but hearing it these days on youtube, as I did recently, it sounds so much softer than I remember, as if they have either remastered it and taken the edge off it, or maybe it was simply that it struck me like a ton of bricks back then because it was new to me.
just bought the honeck and jarvi and 1953 toscanini (i LOVE the 1939) and szell... listened to the szell last movement coda on youtube, YOWZA...
my favorite has always been vienna-e.kleiber and concertgebouw-e.kleiber, but i really love the giulini and wish you'd given it a mention...
The Eroica Boring? I've heard boring recordings and performances, but the work itself it thrilling, as most of the choices here prove. The best performance I've ever heard was Neeme Jarvi of all people in Detroit. Exciting, deep, humorous and thrilling. But for big-orchestra thrills, it's Rene Leibowitz with the Royal Philharmonic.
My favourite is Leibowitz then Kempe