I have a buddy who rides a 2002 TM EN300. The thing must have over 1000 hours.. its had one bottom end and the cylinder hasn't even been replated. Oh and he can still get parts way easier than my '08 GasGas! Really impressive for such a small brand.
awesome video! teardown, close inspection, and explanation of causes and stuff on camera, this is the best way to learn good bike and engine knowledge!
Chuck my first experience with TM was in 1992 at the Australian ISDE. These exotic hand built machines were amazing. To watch these world champions on 80 and 125 bikes beating everyone on larger gear was something I’ll never forget. I bought a new 93 model 125 the next year and had them for decades. I’m 53 and have just bought my latest Beta 200. The small bore 2 strokes make me feel 18yo and the sound and smell fuel my blood. Mechanicals we’re alway excellent and to be able to choose your suspension at the factory between WP, Ohlins, Marzochi was fantastic. I also ride a Beta 480 that I’ve adventurised.
@ChuckfromTrueTech I remember the older Husqys (agusta ownership) used to use "ETN9 C4" type of ball bearing, maybe that could be an update. Waiting for the repair video. Pumped up.
FYI.The 2022 TM EN 144 uses a roller crank bearing on the ign side case.I'm in the middle of replacing damaged 6206 ball bearings on my 2018 Beta 250 with two hundred hours on the clock.I'll be going with a roller in place of the ball bearing on the ign side as well.The ign side bearing was tight as hell and required a press to remove it and the crank assembly from the case.
The left side should require a press to remove. I reassembled this one with the ball bearings & has been running well since. I relieved the side load by tapping on the inner race.
That's the whirring noise they make from the side loading on the main bearings, saw a TM yesterday and it was doing it. I've made some bikes so the bearing can float on flywheel side of the crank it just has to be better.
I’ve now rebuilt the TM & it has 20-something hours on it. That whirring sound hasn’t changed. There is no side load on the bearings at all. I believe that whirring comes from straight cut gears. There are many bikes over the years that have made a similar sound including the VFR Hondas and some CR250 models. Having a bearing float on the crank is usually a bad idea because the friction happens between the shaft & the inner race. This causes excess heat & will ruin the bearing prematurely.
Reminds me of the Arctic Cat M-series ACT Drive failures. Same issue would happen, bearing retainer failed, bearing went. Update was a double wide bearing
@ChuckfromTrueTech this was in a planetary style gearbox that Arctic cat used in place of a chaincase. Everyone says the failure was due to sideloading of the bearing and the fact it was to "thin". Many many failures occurred, most in the 500-1000 mile range
A main bearing failed in my 2021 EN300Fi at 115 hours. TM refused any warranty help, but Dave @ Get Dirty Dirt Bikes in California was awesome and did the repair work for me.
Just changed my bearings to rollers after left side failed. It was a very tight fit case/bearing outer. Bearing defect same way as yours. Also the bearings had the sealing still on the side facing crank? Tm 300 2021 enfi 115-120h
So after your building and riding vids...i was sold...tm has a pink 250 carb model sitting in their stock that i was going to order tomm...wondering if they put the better bearings in it since its with them ...would be shitty if they sent it to me knowing these bearing problems exsist...
Интересно смотреть про ТМ. Очень хотелось бы чтоб ты крупно снимал детали и обращал внимание как обработаны поверхности, какой марки подшипники. СпасибО!
woof that retainer is GONE. Curious what the fix ended up being, and just how many parts they sent with it. Think any other bearings on that side caught bits of debris?
@@ChuckfromTrueTech i froze them, and heated up the casings, the crank rotated freely as well, just something i didn't know about, thanks for the reply
If you are dealing with a "pulsing" load you should use bronze or composite retainer cage bearings, never a steel cage. At least that's how they taught me, but maybe thats only for industrial application ( 30 000h life span). Given the operating temperature i would go for bronze. Did someone ever tried if this makes a different ?
I’ve never seen a bronze retainer. This failure isn’t heat related though. If it were, we would see blueing on the bearing surface. The pulsing could possibly be a factory due to crank flex, but I doubt it because this is a very common style setup.
The idea behind a bronze cage is that the balls/rollers can break the oil film and have metal to metal contact with the cage due to the vibrations caused by the pulsing load. When given the choice between bronze or composite i would go for bronze, because most composites are not that happy at normal operating temperatures of an combustion engine. Anyhow, a steel cage would also last longer then 5 hours, but i just wondered @@ChuckfromTrueTech
There is a playlist on my channel for this bike. I didn’t do a full length video on this issue, but I mentioned in the final review that the engine is still going strong after the repair. I’m quite certain at this point that it’s simply an installation error at the factory, not a systemic problem with the design.
Out of curiosity then, is TM providing warranty for the rebuild and covering the costs? Or is TM just covering parts? I know if this was a KTM there would be 0 help from them as once it leaves their lot they no longer care.
In THIS case TM provided the parts & I was given the option of doing the work myself, which I happily opted to do. I’m not exactly sure what would have happened in a normal case with the labour cost. I’m quite certain it would depend on the dealer/distributor.
@@BoostedBoots Where are you located? The U.S distribution is up in the air right now, but there is still support if you know where to look. You can definitely contact TM Canada for help too.
@ChuckfromTrueTech I have contacted the dealer I bought it through today and they advised me they spoke with tm and were advised they need to get the bike and disassemble to inspect it. Then go from there. Sadly they are about 5 hr 1 way drive for me, so I have to figure it a time to drop it off. (I am in Canada)
A main bearing failed in my 2021 EN300Fi at 115 hours. TM refused any warranty help, but Dave @ Get Dirty Dirt Bikes in California was awesome and did the repair work for me.
The only update I could see was a couple cross drilled holes in the crank. Useless if you ask me, but I’m quite sure the issue is due to an installation error. The engine is running just fine after 20 hours on the rebuild.
@@ChuckfromTrueTech The reason I asked was because when you were pulling the motor out I thought I heard you say something like sans zhongden or something to that effect.
I own a 2021 TM 300ENFi with 150 hours and had a main bearing seizure at 115 hrs. TM declined any warranty help at all. I agree it's a hodge podge bike. While the suspension and chassis are the best I've ever had, the PV reset at every restart issue and now random bogging issue plus archaic airbox design/access and multiple other half ass fit and finish issues has me eager to never buy another TM. That's just me. Dave at Get Dirty Dirt Bikes (California) has been the only redeeming support experience owning a TM. He's been awesome and helpful, unlike the former distributor and now that TM Italy is jerking around the US market with zero communication about a replacement importer, I would not recommend anyone buying a TM for a while. Regarding learning from design flaws, the former US importer told me, and I quote, "TM Italy is too proud to admit to any design flaws", so I'm surprised to hear "they're aware of the issue" with the main bearing seizures.
My general thoughts on fancy Italian machines is that they look very pretty and have some super trick parts, but the overall package tends to sacrifice function for bling. I honestly didn’t get that impression with the TM though. I haven’t worked on a ‘21, but the air box/filter on this ‘23 was very nice to work with besides the fact the seat has to be removed. Not too big a deal. I definitely do suspect that the factory has an “up-turned nose” attitude and that doesn’t foster a “learn from our mistakes” environment. The modification I saw was cross-drilled holes in the crank to provide better lubrication to the main bearings. I’m very confident that side load is an issue as opposed to lubrication, so I think the mod is useless, but there may be multiple reasons for that mod including public perception. At the end of the day it’s an ongoing story and I hope the factory cares enough to support their distribution avenues because we can all benefit from market diversity.
I’ve seen this with Betas many times and with Yamaha (6 hours) and similar with KTM as well. Betas usually seem to be covered, but the Yamaha was denied & KTM is hit or miss. I like the support.
I would just like to point out, if this was a KTM, Husky or Gas Gas, everyone would be coming out of the woodwork saying how horrible, incompetent, and nasty KTM is for having such a crapy motor only last 5.2 hours, bla bla bla... You would have 2,000 comments already about what KTM is doing wrong. But because it's little ol' tm, all you'll probably get is "oh how nice those bolts look, the engine looks so shiny and nice" bla bla bla. To me the tm's have always been a hodge podge of a bike, non the less I love seeing competition. I'm sure all will work out for you, thanks for the video/s!
I’m not brand loyal in any way, but I have honestly been impressed with the build quality of this thing. Failures are to be expected. The support is what I’m interested in. Going to pick up the parts right bow!
I think it’s more that TM is visibly trying to make the best bike possible and responds to problem’s appropriately, it’s different when other brands put prices up consistently and cut quality in parts, sourcing from cheap third party manufacturers and leaving it to the aftermarket to solve the issues.
The difference is how they respond to the issue not weather or not there is an issue. Ktm are notorious. Don't get me wrong I'm not 100% happy with TM either, no dealer in my state but if I have a warranty problem I have to take it back to a TM dealer which will cost me $2,000 in return freight (cheaper to fix it myself) fingers crossed I never need to but this was an educated risk when I decided to purchase.
I've had two TM's, they have been great bikes with top of the range parts. The factory will learn from this and the next models won't have these issues. Best thing about them is they have decent suspension, WP suspension blows...
Dude they've had the same PV reset at every restart issue for 2021, 2022, 2023 model years, zero design changes to address this ongoing issue. The former US importer told me "TM is too proud to admit to any design flaws"...... I've been very involved with trying to correct design flaws on my 2021 300ENFi and can defintely say they DO NOT learn from mistakes @@craigdavies8099
I have a buddy who rides a 2002 TM EN300. The thing must have over 1000 hours.. its had one bottom end and the cylinder hasn't even been replated. Oh and he can still get parts way easier than my '08 GasGas! Really impressive for such a small brand.
awesome video! teardown, close inspection, and explanation of causes and stuff on camera, this is the best way to learn good bike and engine knowledge!
This is great man!! Loving your unbiased approach.
Appreciate being able to see the guts of this motor 👍
Chuck my first experience with TM was in 1992 at the Australian ISDE. These exotic hand built machines were amazing. To watch these world champions on 80 and 125 bikes beating everyone on larger gear was something I’ll never forget. I bought a new 93 model 125 the next year and had them for decades. I’m 53 and have just bought my latest Beta 200. The small bore 2 strokes make me feel 18yo and the sound and smell fuel my blood. Mechanicals we’re alway excellent and to be able to choose your suspension at the factory between WP, Ohlins, Marzochi was fantastic. I also ride a Beta 480 that I’ve adventurised.
To say the bikes are exhilarating is an understatement. There’s certainly a case to be made for the bike that makes you enjoy your time in the dirt.
Nice work man, great video 💪🏼💪🏼
awesome video, super interesting. killer lighting and camera work and damn cool to find out what happend on that thing!
Welcome to my studio. 😜
Nice to see the 23's don't have sealed main bearings like the older FI bikes.
Great content!! 👍🏻
@ChuckfromTrueTech I remember the older Husqys (agusta ownership) used to use "ETN9 C4" type of ball bearing, maybe that could be an update. Waiting for the repair video. Pumped up.
FYI.The 2022 TM EN 144 uses a roller crank bearing on the ign side case.I'm in the middle of replacing damaged 6206 ball bearings on my 2018 Beta 250 with two hundred hours on the clock.I'll be going with a roller in place of the ball bearing on the ign side as well.The ign side bearing was tight as hell and required a press to remove it and the crank assembly from the case.
The left side should require a press to remove. I reassembled this one with the ball bearings & has been running well since. I relieved the side load by tapping on the inner race.
Nice to see that they didn't try to reinvent the wheel when the made that motor. Everything looks very familiar.
100%. Very intuitive. Easy to work on.
That's the whirring noise they make from the side loading on the main bearings, saw a TM yesterday and it was doing it. I've made some bikes so the bearing can float on flywheel side of the crank it just has to be better.
I’ve now rebuilt the TM & it has 20-something hours on it. That whirring sound hasn’t changed. There is no side load on the bearings at all. I believe that whirring comes from straight cut gears. There are many bikes over the years that have made a similar sound including the VFR Hondas and some CR250 models.
Having a bearing float on the crank is usually a bad idea because the friction happens between the shaft & the inner race. This causes excess heat & will ruin the bearing prematurely.
I agree the sound is from straight cut gears in my 2021 TM 300ENFi@@ChuckfromTrueTech
Very good quality off crankcase, but you had bad luck with this situation
Reminds me of the Arctic Cat M-series ACT Drive failures. Same issue would happen, bearing retainer failed, bearing went. Update was a double wide bearing
I’d be curious to know the reasons behind the failure. The double bearing would indicate crank flex to me.
@ChuckfromTrueTech this was in a planetary style gearbox that Arctic cat used in place of a chaincase. Everyone says the failure was due to sideloading of the bearing and the fact it was to "thin". Many many failures occurred, most in the 500-1000 mile range
My right side main bearing failed at 50hrs on my 22 en300fi. Unfortunately, they did not warranty mine... I installed roller bearings.
Interesting that it was the right side. That supports my side load theory.
A main bearing failed in my 2021 EN300Fi at 115 hours. TM refused any warranty help, but Dave @ Get Dirty Dirt Bikes in California was awesome and did the repair work for me.
Just changed my bearings to rollers after left side failed. It was a very tight fit case/bearing outer. Bearing defect same way as yours. Also the bearings had the sealing still on the side facing crank?
Tm 300 2021 enfi 115-120h
That’s odd about the seal. I expect that would certainly limit lubrication running through the bearing.
So after your building and riding vids...i was sold...tm has a pink 250 carb model sitting in their stock that i was going to order tomm...wondering if they put the better bearings in it since its with them ...would be shitty if they sent it to me knowing these bearing problems exsist...
It sounds like the carb models should have the NJ206 bearings. Of course I can't guarantee that, but I expect you could find out from the distributor.
Интересно смотреть про ТМ. Очень хотелось бы чтоб ты крупно снимал детали и обращал внимание как обработаны поверхности, какой марки подшипники. СпасибО!
The bearings are SKF.
woof that retainer is GONE. Curious what the fix ended up being, and just how many parts they sent with it. Think any other bearings on that side caught bits of debris?
I think that’s the only damage, but I’ll be doing a thorough inspection while cleaning it.
just rebuilt my 06 tm300, now i worried about side load, it's going to keep me up at night
If the crank bearings were warm during assembly & the crank rotated freely after the case bolts were tight, you’ll be fine.
@@ChuckfromTrueTech i froze them, and heated up the casings, the crank rotated freely as well, just something i didn't know about, thanks for the reply
@@ChuckfromTrueTechdoes that mean the factory didn't test properly that the crank rotated freely?
If you are dealing with a "pulsing" load you should use bronze or composite retainer cage bearings, never a steel cage. At least that's how they taught me, but maybe thats only for industrial application ( 30 000h life span). Given the operating temperature i would go for bronze. Did someone ever tried if this makes a different ?
I’ve never seen a bronze retainer. This failure isn’t heat related though. If it were, we would see blueing on the bearing surface. The pulsing could possibly be a factory due to crank flex, but I doubt it because this is a very common style setup.
The idea behind a bronze cage is that the balls/rollers can break the oil film and have metal to metal contact with the cage due to the vibrations caused by the pulsing load.
When given the choice between bronze or composite i would go for bronze, because most composites are not that happy at normal operating temperatures of an combustion engine. Anyhow, a steel cage would also last longer then 5 hours, but i just wondered @@ChuckfromTrueTech
Where is the follow up vid? How did this end?
There is a playlist on my channel for this bike. I didn’t do a full length video on this issue, but I mentioned in the final review that the engine is still going strong after the repair. I’m quite certain at this point that it’s simply an installation error at the factory, not a systemic problem with the design.
Out of curiosity then, is TM providing warranty for the rebuild and covering the costs? Or is TM just covering parts?
I know if this was a KTM there would be 0 help from them as once it leaves their lot they no longer care.
In THIS case TM provided the parts & I was given the option of doing the work myself, which I happily opted to do. I’m not exactly sure what would have happened in a normal case with the labour cost. I’m quite certain it would depend on the dealer/distributor.
@@ChuckfromTrueTech was curious as I am 99% sure this just happened on my bike yesterday. Just over 20 hrs on it 🤦♂️
@@BoostedBoots Where are you located? The U.S distribution is up in the air right now, but there is still support if you know where to look. You can definitely contact TM Canada for help too.
@ChuckfromTrueTech I have contacted the dealer I bought it through today and they advised me they spoke with tm and were advised they need to get the bike and disassemble to inspect it. Then go from there. Sadly they are about 5 hr 1 way drive for me, so I have to figure it a time to drop it off. (I am in Canada)
A main bearing failed in my 2021 EN300Fi at 115 hours. TM refused any warranty help, but Dave @ Get Dirty Dirt Bikes in California was awesome and did the repair work for me.
What was the update?
The only update I could see was a couple cross drilled holes in the crank. Useless if you ask me, but I’m quite sure the issue is due to an installation error. The engine is running just fine after 20 hours on the rebuild.
Where’s the rebuild video?
It’s in the queue. I filmed it all. Just gotta edit it. It will likely be a while. I have a LOT of engine builds filmed & in folders.
Did the Beta bearing guy get a job with TM? 😂
😂
Is this a Chinese engine?
Absolutely not. It's TM's own engine. It's very nicely designed & manufactured.
@@ChuckfromTrueTech The reason I asked was because when you were pulling the motor out I thought I heard you say something like sans zhongden or something to that effect.
@@ChuckfromTrueTech I rewatched it. Sans engine. I watched a tour of the factory. Wow what an operation.
@@marcmo7138 Lol. 9 years of taking French and that's what I got.
I own a 2021 TM 300ENFi with 150 hours and had a main bearing seizure at 115 hrs. TM declined any warranty help at all. I agree it's a hodge podge bike. While the suspension and chassis are the best I've ever had, the PV reset at every restart issue and now random bogging issue plus archaic airbox design/access and multiple other half ass fit and finish issues has me eager to never buy another TM. That's just me. Dave at Get Dirty Dirt Bikes (California) has been the only redeeming support experience owning a TM. He's been awesome and helpful, unlike the former distributor and now that TM Italy is jerking around the US market with zero communication about a replacement importer, I would not recommend anyone buying a TM for a while. Regarding learning from design flaws, the former US importer told me, and I quote, "TM Italy is too proud to admit to any design flaws", so I'm surprised to hear "they're aware of the issue" with the main bearing seizures.
My general thoughts on fancy Italian machines is that they look very pretty and have some super trick parts, but the overall package tends to sacrifice function for bling.
I honestly didn’t get that impression with the TM though. I haven’t worked on a ‘21, but the air box/filter on this ‘23 was very nice to work with besides the fact the seat has to be removed. Not too big a deal.
I definitely do suspect that the factory has an “up-turned nose” attitude and that doesn’t foster a “learn from our mistakes” environment. The modification I saw was cross-drilled holes in the crank to provide better lubrication to the main bearings. I’m very confident that side load is an issue as opposed to lubrication, so I think the mod is useless, but there may be multiple reasons for that mod including public perception.
At the end of the day it’s an ongoing story and I hope the factory cares enough to support their distribution avenues because we can all benefit from market diversity.
Hopefully they don’t leave the US market out the dry.
100% dealbreaker.
I’ve seen this with Betas many times and with Yamaha (6 hours) and similar with KTM as well. Betas usually seem to be covered, but the Yamaha was denied & KTM is hit or miss. I like the support.
I would just like to point out, if this was a KTM, Husky or Gas Gas, everyone would be coming out of the woodwork saying how horrible, incompetent, and nasty KTM is for having such a crapy motor only last 5.2 hours, bla bla bla... You would have 2,000 comments already about what KTM is doing wrong. But because it's little ol' tm, all you'll probably get is "oh how nice those bolts look, the engine looks so shiny and nice" bla bla bla. To me the tm's have always been a hodge podge of a bike, non the less I love seeing competition. I'm sure all will work out for you, thanks for the video/s!
I’m not brand loyal in any way, but I have honestly been impressed with the build quality of this thing. Failures are to be expected. The support is what I’m interested in. Going to pick up the parts right bow!
I think it’s more that TM is visibly trying to make the best bike possible and responds to problem’s appropriately, it’s different when other brands put prices up consistently and cut quality in parts, sourcing from cheap third party manufacturers and leaving it to the aftermarket to solve the issues.
The difference is how they respond to the issue not weather or not there is an issue. Ktm are notorious.
Don't get me wrong I'm not 100% happy with TM either, no dealer in my state but if I have a warranty problem I have to take it back to a TM dealer which will cost me $2,000 in return freight (cheaper to fix it myself) fingers crossed I never need to but this was an educated risk when I decided to purchase.
The difference is getting ktm to stand behind anything is hit or miss. Been there done that
@@sarahdell4042 Totally true!! That's with any bike though
Go ahead people buy some more Italian junk 😅
Would take this bike any day over KTM !
I've had two TM's, they have been great bikes with top of the range parts. The factory will learn from this and the next models won't have these issues. Best thing about them is they have decent suspension, WP suspension blows...
Dude they've had the same PV reset at every restart issue for 2021, 2022, 2023 model years, zero design changes to address this ongoing issue. The former US importer told me "TM is too proud to admit to any design flaws"...... I've been very involved with trying to correct design flaws on my 2021 300ENFi and can defintely say they DO NOT learn from mistakes @@craigdavies8099