Jay, I believe another good question to ask Mark would be: "If you have a ton of money to outfit a JOB shop, what would you buy?" (vs. outfitting a production shop, which is mostly based on the size, mix, and volume of parts).
I would go with 5-axis mill (UMC or VF with 5th axis table) and lathe with Y-axis. That'll get your parts done quickly and with least setups :)
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@@vilts agreed! We have a DMG DMU50 and a ST-30Y and this is a great duo allowing to make a large range of parts efficiently. Next best thing is work and tool holding. Wish I had twice the number of holders for the mill and quick tool change ala capto on the lathe to shrink setup time. Then depending on the jobs, we find ourself missing the table length of a VF or a sub spindle on the lathe.
Great video. Bought a TM-2 for my garage, and, based on this video, it was the correct choice. Great machine. I'm making parts for myself. Prototypes and short-run production, so it is a perfect fit. My next step is to look into subplate workholding solutions.
The one question to ask, where do you start. The chicken or the egg? Do you buy the machine to be able to find work, or do you find the work that requires the machine then rush to get a machine to do the job. Not everyone makes there own parts. Tough to jump into a 60K machine without any way to justify it and outsourcing parts for a prototype would cost as much as the machine is worth.
My suggestion is if you are a innovative person and you truly want to get into cnc work then go ahead and buy a used machine maybe 15k if possible. Then be creative and start designing and make it work thats what I did I bought a tormach 1100 designed a few parts got hooked up with a company that resales my product and then bought a TM1 Haas, after a few years I purchased another TM1 and have been busy ever since. I would love to buy a New VF2 but I may have to wait a little while its hard to pay those big payments every month. Right now im making more money than I am spending and my money is building up month by month so once I get a large sum saved up I may take the plunge for a new machine. Its all about discipline and hard work!
Most of your question makes sense up to the part where you start to disagree with yourself ?? Meaning : ( you wrote ) Tough to jump into a 60k machine without any way to justify it and outsourcing parts for prototype would cost as much as the machine is worth ?? If you are prototyping parts that could cost as much as a machine, would this not answer your question ? Buy A Machine. I know it might sound like i am try to be a smart arse ?? But i really want to know what your thoughts are ? Do you have Prototype Work of any value ? Do you have any plans to find work ? Are you planning to manufacture items you can sell ? I understand the first part of your question. It is Difficult to justify buying any machine, that is true. But what do you plan to do with a machine IF you buy one ? Something to consider ? Do You. Need A Machine ? Or. Do You. Just Want a Machine. There is a big difference.
@@banjohero8352 Which industrial space is one best placed to start thinking about with regards to producing parts for as an amateur? motorcycle spares, injection molding tooling, factories looking for spare parts? I would appreciate your opinion on this. Thanks.
@@georgekariuki8614 Thats a tough question. If you are planning on making your own products then I would pick an industry that you are somewhat familiar with. If you ride motorcycles look into products you could machine and make that may be better or as good as some you see on the market. Kind of go with your gut kind of deal. Me personally I found some products that were around 100 dollars and they were made out of steel and I thought I could make them way cheaper than that so I designed one similiar and starting cutting them out and selling them for 60 dollars and they started selling. Start shopping and looking at products online and see if there are products you can make. Using the motorcycle example again I would search foot pegs, Handlebar risers, Shock linkage parts, Side covers and so on until I found something that looks interesting and easy to make. Of course you can pick any industry but you get my drift. Customers love Made in the USA and Lifetime warranty! Good Luck!
@@banjohero8352 Good advice.....only if you happen to have $15,000 to spend on a used machine (and hope that it's not worn out and has all the tooling you need).
I simultaneously ran 4 machines (2 lathes, a VF2 and a Mini Mill) sometimes I would run Op1 Op2, sometimes, sometimes I would run parallel, but the flexibility was always better than running 1 faster machine. As always, it depends on cycle times, but if they balanced out it worked quite well ... though it kept me hopping with manual loading.
I simultaneously ran 2 horizontals. 4 pallets, 2 ops per pallet. Our changeovers were trivial because we used ball lock fixturing from Jergens and programmed from machine datums with internal macros setting the work offsets. Versatility? I could switch from a 4 sided double station vice column to a custom built fixture in 10 minutes or less. With an HMC, the spindle is turning while you're loading parts, and that's one of its biggest benefits. The biggest detriment is cost. Those 2 machines cost nearly twice as much as the 4 you mentioned. And to gain that flexibility costs even more in fixturing and prep work.
Prototrak. If you’re starting a garage shop, you’ll be doing mostly one off, fussy parts that no one else wants to do. I have a brand Haas new DM-2 at my day job and an old 3.5" floppy disk drive powered Prototrak DPM. I actually leave work and go home to do some stuff on the Prototrak. What he says about climbing in the machine is true. The Haas DM-2 spindle is an uncomfortable distance away from the front of the cabinet. Trying to exactly pick up some feature on a part is a pain in the ass when you can’t get in there to see it. There are a ton of shops out there that can make 5000 widgets. The number of shops that can take a broken part and duplicate it for a company that has a machine down gets smaller every day. I’d buy a newer Prototrak. For the price we paid for our DM-2, you could buy a Prototrak lathe and mill and pay rent on a garage shop for a year.
@@agentsmith7947 The Prototrak is a solid, easy to learn cnc machine that is primarily used for making small numbers of parts or repairing or modifying existing parts. It is open on all sides and has a very large z axis height as well as the ability to swing the head to various angles. It can also be used manually or semi-manually. You can machine large plates or long pieces by supporting the end that’s hanging off the machine. I’ve milled the ends of shafts that were 15 feet long that way. "One offs" are parts that you’re just making one of. Though you usually make more just to be safe if the material is cheap enough. I’d say the majority of stuff that I do in my personal shop is farm or construction machinery related or custom car and truck stuff. I guess a bunch of industrial stuff as well. A lot of repair work. I can weld ok, so that’s something I can add. A recent job was to fix some badly damaged splines on some part from an older bulldozer. The guy had welded over the damaged section and I went in and milled new splines thru that weld. Probably not back to factory spec, but the part was very expensive to replace. A bunch of stuff I do is like that. Good enough to get you going again while you explore your options. He was happy to pay $300. A good indication of a machine tool’s usefulness is it’s value on the used market. For a good Prototrak, you could expect to pay about what a Tormach costs new. The biggest problem with the Prototrak is the lack of an automatic tool changer, so you need to be there while it runs. You can’t just push a button and go do something while it cycles thru a program with a bunch of tools.
@rexmundi8154 wow, thank you so much for this information and taking the time to respond, if you don't mind me asking, around how much is the machine you bought, there website doesn't show pricing
@@agentsmith7947 I bought my 1996 DPM for $8000 at auction when a place I used to work went out of business. I had ran it when I worked there. I think the new one we recently bought at work was about $40,000. They hold value pretty well so ones with a newer controller are still pretty pricey used. For part time work out of a small shop, it’s hard to know what machine is best. The Prototrak can be run easily from a cheap phase converter on a 220 dryer outlet, but buying one new puts you kinda close to new Haas VF range. The Prototrak has a very user friendly conversational programming system that’s lets you do a lot of common job shop stuff right at the mill without a CAM system, but the machines itself is not as fast and the spindle speed is lower. You can still program it with something like Fusion 360, but it’s not totally necessary. I’d say I do 90% of my programming at the mill. Something like a key way slot for a shaft or an adapter plate might take 2 min to program and set up. It is kinda like punching numbers in a microwave though, so longer programs can get tiring and tedious. Which is when I go to the computer. Southwest Industries has a bunch of videos on TH-cam with Trakin’ Pat where they show how to use the controller.
You should have shown the machines as he listed off the part numbers, as a person trying to get into machine does not know the Hass brochure off by heart.
Me working on a fair sized horizontal for over 1 year now... , i can really understand what Mark says about a small/medium VMC . It's so MUCH hassle to climb in the machine sometimes 30 times a day for a one off. Sometimes the size and shape dictates the machines , but most of the time i can already imagine flipping the part 3 times without the challenges of a horizontal . P.S. and imo a badly set up horizontal can make more trouble than a badly set up vertical .
$5M "dream machine?" I'd have an entire shop complex... Machining, sheetmetal, fab, composites. All paid for, land and buildings, debt-free. I have some ideas I want to develop where such integration would be great.
@@punkdudex69 Uncommonly good sense not so common. It's easy to smoosh together EC 400 and UMC 500. I do wonder if HAAS will roll out a new ultimate garage machine as part of it's tool room line ?
I completely disagree with the guy's advice to get a Haas TL or TM as your FIRST machine. Price tag on a TL is $32,000. Not many people have that budget starting out, especially if they have no proof of concept or no product(s) to make. Maybe after a few years in business or after you have PROFITABLE products to make. Then you can get a business loan for it. But it's going to be hard to get business financing if you are a guy in a garage, because most equipment financing companies will lend to an LLC or corporation and NOT to a home/hobby shop. The first machine you get is the one that makes you money as fast as possible and can fit within YOUR space and YOUR budget. That may be a $500 welder, a bridgeport milling machine, a manual lathe, a bench vise and angle grinder. Not everyone is going to be able to afford a Haas as a beginner! Work up to it.
You are dragging this on way longer than is needed ???? Just finish this series of video,s and be done with it. I have to agree with kkknotcool it is getting a bit annoying. Don,t wreck a good channel with Over Drama.
Semi Retired Machine Shop, LOL do you need to go to the time out corner? We're going through a pandemic, maybe you should grab a beer and chill out because there are much bigger problems in life than having to wait for a video.
@@Foomanlol I agree and disagree, lol. You are right sometimes best to say nothing. Just watch and move on. I guess it was a feeling at the time of my comment to say ? Just Finish It ???? You understand that feeling i am sure. It,s annoying when you get part way through something then you need to stop. Mostly the reasons for the comment. Sometimes it,s good to get involved in the comments section, and sometimes it,s not ?? Like yourself you scrolled down to see what other people thought about this video also ? Am I Right ?? Like yourself i like to get involved. Maybe i should stop, LOL. Have a good one man, and take care during this time. All the best. Peter.
So, for context - and curious minds. I bought a brand new vf2 lol 😂 I just had it installed this week. And I am thrilled to death. Although it’s completely bare bones. It should give me everything I need and more!
Jay, I believe another good question to ask Mark would be: "If you have a ton of money to outfit a JOB shop, what would you buy?" (vs. outfitting a production shop, which is mostly based on the size, mix, and volume of parts).
I would go with 5-axis mill (UMC or VF with 5th axis table) and lathe with Y-axis. That'll get your parts done quickly and with least setups :)
@@vilts agreed! We have a DMG DMU50 and a ST-30Y and this is a great duo allowing to make a large range of parts efficiently. Next best thing is work and tool holding. Wish I had twice the number of holders for the mill and quick tool change ala capto on the lathe to shrink setup time. Then depending on the jobs, we find ourself missing the table length of a VF or a sub spindle on the lathe.
Great video. Bought a TM-2 for my garage, and, based on this video, it was the correct choice. Great machine. I'm making parts for myself. Prototypes and short-run production, so it is a perfect fit. My next step is to look into subplate workholding solutions.
Great discussion. Love the emulation between the shop and the manufacturer without too much bias. Thanks
He's still in character. Love that guy.
Mark is a character, for sure. But he’s pretty much exactly like you see in the videos: really knowledgeable, funny, and great at explaining things.
Interesting video with food for thought! Thank you both so much for making and posting this.
The one question to ask, where do you start.
The chicken or the egg?
Do you buy the machine to be able to find work, or do you find the work that requires the machine then rush to get a machine to do the job.
Not everyone makes there own parts.
Tough to jump into a 60K machine without any way to justify it and outsourcing parts for a prototype would cost as much as the machine is worth.
My suggestion is if you are a innovative person and you truly want to get into cnc work then go ahead and buy a used machine maybe 15k if possible. Then be creative and start designing and make it work thats what I did I bought a tormach 1100 designed a few parts got hooked up with a company that resales my product and then bought a TM1 Haas, after a few years I purchased another TM1 and have been busy ever since. I would love to buy a New VF2 but I may have to wait a little while its hard to pay those big payments every month. Right now im making more money than I am spending and my money is building up month by month so once I get a large sum saved up I may take the plunge for a new machine. Its all about discipline and hard work!
Most of your question makes sense up to the part where you start to disagree with yourself ??
Meaning : ( you wrote )
Tough to jump into a 60k machine without any way to justify it and outsourcing parts for prototype would cost as much as the machine is worth ??
If you are prototyping parts that could cost as much as a machine, would this not answer your question ?
Buy A Machine.
I know it might sound like i am try to be a smart arse ??
But i really want to know what your thoughts are ?
Do you have Prototype Work of any value ?
Do you have any plans to find work ?
Are you planning to manufacture items you can sell ?
I understand the first part of your question.
It is Difficult to justify buying any machine, that is true.
But what do you plan to do with a machine IF you buy one ?
Something to consider ?
Do You. Need A Machine ?
Or.
Do You. Just Want a Machine.
There is a big difference.
@@banjohero8352 Which industrial space is one best placed to start thinking about with regards to producing parts for as an amateur? motorcycle spares, injection molding tooling, factories looking for spare parts? I would appreciate your opinion on this.
Thanks.
@@georgekariuki8614 Thats a tough question. If you are planning on making your own products then I would pick an industry that you are somewhat familiar with. If you ride motorcycles look into products you could machine and make that may be better or as good as some you see on the market. Kind of go with your gut kind of deal. Me personally I found some products that were around 100 dollars and they were made out of steel and I thought I could make them way cheaper than that so I designed one similiar and starting cutting them out and selling them for 60 dollars and they started selling. Start shopping and looking at products online and see if there are products you can make. Using the motorcycle example again I would search foot pegs, Handlebar risers, Shock linkage parts, Side covers and so on until I found something that looks interesting and easy to make. Of course you can pick any industry but you get my drift. Customers love Made in the USA and Lifetime warranty! Good Luck!
@@banjohero8352 Good advice.....only if you happen to have $15,000 to spend on a used machine (and hope that it's not worn out and has all the tooling you need).
I'd say as far as having the best of both worlds. Would have a VF3SS, TTR210, and a robot loader is my go to.
I simultaneously ran 4 machines (2 lathes, a VF2 and a Mini Mill) sometimes I would run Op1 Op2, sometimes, sometimes I would run parallel, but the flexibility was always better than running 1 faster machine. As always, it depends on cycle times, but if they balanced out it worked quite well ... though it kept me hopping with manual loading.
I simultaneously ran 2 horizontals. 4 pallets, 2 ops per pallet. Our changeovers were trivial because we used ball lock fixturing from Jergens and programmed from machine datums with internal macros setting the work offsets. Versatility? I could switch from a 4 sided double station vice column to a custom built fixture in 10 minutes or less. With an HMC, the spindle is turning while you're loading parts, and that's one of its biggest benefits.
The biggest detriment is cost. Those 2 machines cost nearly twice as much as the 4 you mentioned. And to gain that flexibility costs even more in fixturing and prep work.
Scalable yet modular within the confines of workflow.
I did some pricing on the Haas site for a mini-mill vs a TM-2 selecting the same features. TM-2 is less than 10% more expensive.
Prototrak. If you’re starting a garage shop, you’ll be doing mostly one off, fussy parts that no one else wants to do. I have a brand Haas new DM-2 at my day job and an old 3.5" floppy disk drive powered Prototrak DPM. I actually leave work and go home to do some stuff on the Prototrak. What he says about climbing in the machine is true. The Haas DM-2 spindle is an uncomfortable distance away from the front of the cabinet. Trying to exactly pick up some feature on a part is a pain in the ass when you can’t get in there to see it. There are a ton of shops out there that can make 5000 widgets. The number of shops that can take a broken part and duplicate it for a company that has a machine down gets smaller every day. I’d buy a newer Prototrak. For the price we paid for our DM-2, you could buy a Prototrak lathe and mill and pay rent on a garage shop for a year.
Is Trak a good start up cnc machine? Also what's one off mean. Thanks
@@agentsmith7947 The Prototrak is a solid, easy to learn cnc machine that is primarily used for making small numbers of parts or repairing or modifying existing parts. It is open on all sides and has a very large z axis height as well as the ability to swing the head to various angles. It can also be used manually or semi-manually. You can machine large plates or long pieces by supporting the end that’s hanging off the machine. I’ve milled the ends of shafts that were 15 feet long that way. "One offs" are parts that you’re just making one of. Though you usually make more just to be safe if the material is cheap enough. I’d say the majority of stuff that I do in my personal shop is farm or construction machinery related or custom car and truck stuff. I guess a bunch of industrial stuff as well. A lot of repair work. I can weld ok, so that’s something I can add. A recent job was to fix some badly damaged splines on some part from an older bulldozer. The guy had welded over the damaged section and I went in and milled new splines thru that weld. Probably not back to factory spec, but the part was very expensive to replace. A bunch of stuff I do is like that. Good enough to get you going again while you explore your options. He was happy to pay $300. A good indication of a machine tool’s usefulness is it’s value on the used market. For a good Prototrak, you could expect to pay about what a Tormach costs new. The biggest problem with the Prototrak is the lack of an automatic tool changer, so you need to be there while it runs. You can’t just push a button and go do something while it cycles thru a program with a bunch of tools.
@rexmundi8154 wow, thank you so much for this information and taking the time to respond, if you don't mind me asking, around how much is the machine you bought, there website doesn't show pricing
@@agentsmith7947 I bought my 1996 DPM for $8000 at auction when a place I used to work went out of business. I had ran it when I worked there. I think the new one we recently bought at work was about $40,000. They hold value pretty well so ones with a newer controller are still pretty pricey used. For part time work out of a small shop, it’s hard to know what machine is best. The Prototrak can be run easily from a cheap phase converter on a 220 dryer outlet, but buying one new puts you kinda close to new Haas VF range. The Prototrak has a very user friendly conversational programming system that’s lets you do a lot of common job shop stuff right at the mill without a CAM system, but the machines itself is not as fast and the spindle speed is lower. You can still program it with something like Fusion 360, but it’s not totally necessary. I’d say I do 90% of my programming at the mill. Something like a key way slot for a shaft or an adapter plate might take 2 min to program and set up. It is kinda like punching numbers in a microwave though, so longer programs can get tiring and tedious. Which is when I go to the computer. Southwest Industries has a bunch of videos on TH-cam with Trakin’ Pat where they show how to use the controller.
You should have shown the machines as he listed off the part numbers, as a person trying to get into machine does not know the Hass brochure off by heart.
Great video, when are we going to see the robot doing its job ?
Me working on a fair sized horizontal for over 1 year now... , i can really understand what Mark says about a small/medium VMC . It's so MUCH hassle to climb in the machine sometimes 30 times a day for a one off. Sometimes the size and shape dictates the machines , but most of the time i can already imagine flipping the part 3 times without the challenges of a horizontal . P.S. and imo a badly set up horizontal can make more trouble than a badly set up vertical .
My dream setup is a horizontal and vertical with one or two lathes
@@nikolaiownz Mine would be 3 cnc lathes . I would not mind forgetting all the hassle with milling . The warping especially is a real piece of work .
@@kisspeteristvan i dont know how I would run my shop without a cnc mill. Most of my work needs milling done hehe
Hello, can you please share a link for the mentioned Mini Mill with bar feeder, I'm dying to see that! Happy new year!
Job shop with ol-1 stuffed in a shed, just gotta be intuitive and make it happen
what would fit better in a garage , a Mini mill or TM1?
BMW 335i
If I have the room TM1P over Mini mill. If I can afford add 10k spindle. Single phase.
If I can bump up $$ Vf2 with 10k or 12k . Add a trt160 later
$5M "dream machine?"
I'd have an entire shop complex... Machining, sheetmetal, fab, composites. All paid for, land and buildings, debt-free.
I have some ideas I want to develop where such integration would be great.
i want to order up a purple mattress cut it down to fit inside a vf4ss this way i can sell everything i own to buy it. and still get some sleep
Yeah it all comes down to money and work🙂
What was the answer to the ending of the video? "How do you get a job at Haas?" It was cut-off. lol
they know lol. thats so you come back next week to find out
@@ratherrelatablemantisshrim2409 The pyramid ladder knows, yes.
@6:30 "UMC 400 " ?
Common sense not so common
@@punkdudex69 Uncommonly good sense not so common. It's easy to smoosh together EC 400 and UMC 500. I do wonder if HAAS will roll out a new ultimate garage machine as part of it's tool room line ?
I worked with that guy mark terryberry no bullshit
I completely disagree with the guy's advice to get a Haas TL or TM as your FIRST machine. Price tag on a TL is $32,000. Not many people have that budget starting out, especially if they have no proof of concept or no product(s) to make. Maybe after a few years in business or after you have PROFITABLE products to make. Then you can get a business loan for it. But it's going to be hard to get business financing if you are a guy in a garage, because most equipment financing companies will lend to an LLC or corporation and NOT to a home/hobby shop.
The first machine you get is the one that makes you money as fast as possible and can fit within YOUR space and YOUR budget. That may be a $500 welder, a bridgeport milling machine, a manual lathe, a bench vise and angle grinder. Not everyone is going to be able to afford a Haas as a beginner! Work up to it.
I think we see eye to eye. You'll like my answer that I gave in a previous video: th-cam.com/video/OWQeO-aVjZU/w-d-xo.html
✅ Will we KEEP or SELL our UMC500? 👉 th-cam.com/video/YRncPJZeo0E/w-d-xo.html
I think the sound is very low increase the mic volume plz
You are dragging this on way longer than is needed ????
Just finish this series of video,s and be done with it.
I have to agree with kkknotcool it is getting a bit annoying.
Don,t wreck a good channel with Over Drama.
Semi Retired Machine Shop, LOL do you need to go to the time out corner? We're going through a pandemic, maybe you should grab a beer and chill out because there are much bigger problems in life than having to wait for a video.
@@Foomanlol
I agree and disagree, lol.
You are right sometimes best to say nothing.
Just watch and move on.
I guess it was a feeling at the time of my comment to say ?
Just Finish It ????
You understand that feeling i am sure.
It,s annoying when you get part way through something then you need to stop.
Mostly the reasons for the comment.
Sometimes it,s good to get involved in the comments section, and sometimes it,s not ??
Like yourself you scrolled down to see what other people thought about this video also ?
Am I Right ??
Like yourself i like to get involved.
Maybe i should stop, LOL.
Have a good one man, and take care during this time.
All the best.
Peter.
Starting a garage shop? Let’s talk 5 million dollar budgets lol. 🤣 I’m just a jealous fool
But in all seriousness, Haas can package a toolroom mill and lathe for under $1000 a month. It's a great first step.
Agree! Start a "small" shop with two HAAS machines which cost over $60,000. Not sure how many people have that budget!
Actually Haas financing was really easy. I had two machines financed but backed out because they backdated my delivery 6 months.
So, for context - and curious minds. I bought a brand new vf2 lol 😂 I just had it installed this week. And I am thrilled to death. Although it’s completely bare bones. It should give me everything I need and more!
This is partially your fault jay, and mark!
fadal...