Owning a UMC 500 for 1 year - Keep it or sell it? - Pierson Workholding Q&A
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ค. 2024
- After a year, we review our UMC 500. Will Jay keep it or sell it?
✅ How we hold pallets on the UMC 500 👉 bit.ly/3zUiASK
It's been a year since we bought our UMC 500. Jay Pierson gives his thoughts and advice in this Pierson Workholding Q&A. Drop us a comment below if you have any questions on the UMC 500 or how we use it.
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00:00 Am i keeping the Haas UMC 500 after 1 year?
01:02 Haas UMC 500 Pros
10:51 Hass UMC 500 Cons
23:46 Outro
#CNCMachining #Haas #PiersonWorkholding - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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✅ How we hold pallets on the UMC 500 👉 bit.ly/3zUiASK
A very clear presentation. Touchscreen, remote handwheel, paint peeling off and two types of cuts topics .. totally agreed.
Jay, I certainly appreciate the info on your opinions and you always have your own why or would do instead, or etcetera. I find it rare and refreshing, thank you, it doesn't leave the viewer high and dry. Look forward to appropriating some PW hardware in the near future. KUDO'S for keeping us learning right!
Man, I could listen to you for hours Jay! Loved the video, and the final tip. Ciao, Marco.
Thanks for being honest on your review!!
Appreciate the honest opinion
Great information. Thanks! Also love your products!
I used to be a chemical salesman way before I knew what a cnc machine was and one of my customers over in chattlesworth, ca did a lot of contracting for haas enclosures (I sold them the stamping fluids, cleaning chemistry and paint adhesion chemicals) and there QC was terrible (like actually of the 100+ customers i had they were the worst). It was one of those grandpa left the company to his 2 grandsons things (i wonder if there still in buisness). But I remember seeing all the panels coming off their conveyor line and thinking "the paints going to fall off this pannels in about a year"
skip 7 years ahead and I own 2 2014-2015 haas and I love them.... but I was right all those years ago
their phosphate tank was always, and I mean mostly of the time (not literally always) way to high so the steel had so much iron phosphate caked on that the paint would not stick so their solution was to dump more final seal tank chemistry (contained a decent amount of zirconium hexafloride and Hydrofloric acid) so the acid would eat away the excess iron phosphate.... I wouldnt say it really ever worked
well this comment was an essay but even with haas cheaping out of the paint, I love my 2 little machines to death
Awesome insight
Great video! Interesting to hear about the rigidity issues.
The key is how does the 5th axis fit with the entire value stream. If every cycle you turn out more parts than the downstream operations can handle it messes with your one-piece flow. What options are available for inter-machine parts handling so the operations are time balanced? Yes, the best setup is to not do a setup at all, but only if it makes sense in the greater scheme of things. SMED analysis can go a long way in balancing things out.
Love the video. Never found use for the hand control until I used it to tram in the 4th axis on VMC. Because you just hold it for .1 moves instead of turning the handle made life much easier. But i regularly swap head stocks and collet holders on a rotary. So it may not be worth it for every one
Ok the highlight of this vid was the 2 sec teaser of the new pallet system.
I would suggest that you get rid of it by way of sending it to me. No worries, I have a FedEx account and will cover the shipping.
Sorry, it won't fit in a cardboard box. XD
I love using TSC with face and high feed mill ( every insert tool I ever used was TSC ready ( except the ones I made my self)
Another great video @jay
I have a 1995 VF-OE and its paint has lasted better.
Top Tip at the end too, cheers!
Conventional cutting requires a VERY sharp tool, but I sure like the final result.
The cut material accumulates at the front and they will be re-cut which causes surface finish not good , will this happen as well?
I was teaching a student how to use our haas and the first thing she did was try to touch the screen.
I just found out today that all new Haas mills now have touch screens!
having the touchscreen is nice and they aren't difficult to get used to
@@SuperAWaC But having only a touch screen like DMG Celos or Mazak Smooth is absolutely awful. Source: we have 4 machines with Celos and 3 with Smooth. Heindenhain, Siemens and now Haas got it right by combining both touch screen and physical buttons.
Thank you for the video, the climb vs conventional idea for shallow finishing sounds really interesting... I am definitely going to test it. I run very light duty 5 axis and I wonder if it makes a difference in the finish.
The compromise is compactness vs rigidity in how to layout a traveling column machines. If the stack for the y has the trucks on the main column and the rails on the spindle ram ala Haas the machine is smaller cheaper and easier to manufacture. The problem is the effective overhang of the spindle ram changes based on the y position. The alternative is to mount the rails to the main column and put the trucks on the spindle ram. It's bigger and heavier but irregardless of y position the effective overhang is the same. DMG and doosan traveling column machines are like this, I'd assume most elite machines are made this way.
Great content. Thank you!
Good review.
For me, there are too many minuses at the UMC 500
No options for lifting with a crane when changing fixture or large items
UMC 500 Starting price in 90,396 €
With only 8100 rpm
SPINDLE WITH 15,000 RPM + 9,036 €
OIL SKIMER FOR COOLING TANK + 396 €
AIR FLOW THROUGH TOOLS + 876 €
CONVEYOR BELT FOR BELT TYPE CHIPS, UMC + 5,276 €
COOLING THROUGH SPINDLE + € 4,876
Total = € 110,856
I mean you get too little for your money for that quality.
I have a Microcut MCU-5X Machining center - 5 axis With control heidenhain TNC 640
I have about 100 tools that can be switched in and out of the tool changer in 20 seconds
Very quick to rearrange
10:27 Using only one work offset for any cnc is a great way reduce crashing.
I can't wait for the UMC 350HD. I'm planning to purchase one.
Too bad they got rid of it😢
Check out Okuma's new 5 Axis machine. Their table moves in Y axis on large linear rails with Single Servo. Dual Servos for Trunnion table. Direct Drive for Rotary Table... The Manual for UMC750 Mentions chatter and accuracy issues with Y axis fully extended.
We got a dmg with 60mpm rapid, that includes the b and c axis rapids as well. A machine with high rapid speed is a good way to save time
I'll give ya tree-fiddy for that worn out mill.
Man I preach conventional cuts quite often with much resistance in my world. Nice explanation of cutting theory. I just had a part that was asked for extremely tight profile tolerances(as low as .0004🤯) with areas of thin tall walls(some sections 4.8"Depth and as thin as.024" thick). After alot of trial and error the solution was conventional milling paired with leaving more material on the thin sections .016" on thin walls, and .003 finish on the thicker profiles. Tough challenge especially because it was a high nickel stainless. 💪💪 another rule of thumb is cut the floor separate from the walls. 2 separate tools in my case for the best outcome.
Thanks for telling the recipe, would be great to know how do you work with extended tools, I mean like 10 x D end mill and avoid chater?
@@Andrey222ful To me, that is the fun part of being a machinist. Depending on each application and process, tool length rigidity is a creative process. As its said there's multiple ways to skin a cat. There are many variables to consider in that scenario (machine , tools, gd&t, tool path, costs, risks, etc.) . In any case, building a strategy to achieve machining challenges comes down to trial and error (hopefully minimizing costly mishaps). That's kinda the beauty of this craft and the wisdom that can be obtained.
on our dmg cmx800 on the door inside there is also after one year paint coming off
Setup reduction = Standardized tools + 5 axis machine + awesome workholding!
You get it!
Touch screen are nice if you can touch the icon faster then you can used the arrow keys some machines its really nice other's its kinda afterthought. Also traveling colom machines are good machines it's mostly who is making the machine.
12:13 we bought the umc 500ss last year september, and that is exactly what i am doing every week. the chip conveyor is not very well design. ☹️ really give us lot of problems when we are running production.
Hi. Just noticed this video. Agree with everything you said. I ran the UMC-750SS and it had the same issues. Loved the M/C, but I am thinking about getting a VF-4SS and adding a trunnion rotary table (TR-160 for example) or you could get a VF-2 or VF-3 on it for probably close to the same machining possibilities and more rigidity.
That's exactly what we did later. We added a TRT210 to our VF4 and love it. Here's a video about it: th-cam.com/video/C5-zWsr-zU0/w-d-xo.html
2:20 Okay, I completely lost it at this point lol
what song is that?
Next thing to invest in is some good automation. CNC machines are the first step, but to maximize your lean potential, gotta get them robots going. And not the silly CRobots.
'round here we call the 'carrier stock' a top hat, which can used both as a verb and a noun.
Just program spring passes to fix the tapering with long endmills. It adds virtually no time.
Thanks for sharing I know this will help someone trying to decide whether or not to buy an UMC. I am a fan of Haas for all the education they provide and ease of use. but would never spend $130K+ for an Haas UMC and definitely will stay away from the EC Horizontals, a friend bought 2 of these and had to ask Haas to take them back after fighting with them for 6 months about not being able to hold the tolerances he was holding on his 25 year old Toyoda. Yes is more about the machinist but Haas need to step up their game in terms of quality since there are already a few Made in Taiwan machines with similar price point and better quality. BTW they still will not release their machines accuracy and repeatability specs like most manufacturers do.
What other brands have better tolerances? Looking to buy a few cnc and still deciding.
Did your's throw tool holders against the wall or drop tool holder during tool change? Specifically HSK63.
Having worked closely with 2 umc750ss machines without even watching this video I can bet you'd probably sell. They have so many problems tracking parts when using the multi axis functions. Sell them all and get some DMGs
Hey Jay! How is the Haas lathe coming along? Are you planning to do a comparison against Doosan? Trying to decide what lathe to get...already have a Haas Mini Mill 2 so kind of leaning towards the Haas option. Can you offer any advice? Thanks, Vlad from Omelko Research
How do you handle the problem with the flooding chips, specially if you mill plastic ? The chip conveyer is a nightmare.
Need ja right now.....need ja right now......lol!
More music video, slow mo machining please!
You should try HERMLE.
But i think its much more expensive...
you could buy 4 of these haas machines for 1 hermle, and then you'd never be able to get parts or support for it
So when are you buying a horisontal then, please?
Seems to me there is one operation missing in the 5 axis. When do you machne the dovetail? This would add a vise, hard jaws and machining time. Nevertheless I agree 5 axis is far superior when machining complex parts.
We have mazak and haas 5axis mills and the mazaks get chips causing poor coolant circulation in it .
Guess they should have mounted the rotator 90deg the other way so it leaned the work in towards the spindle.
That would end up making the problem worse. Part of design is figuring out how your customers are going to use the product. If it tilted as you suggest, customers would program with the table facing the front of the machine so they can see the work happening which means the spindle carrier would always be at greatest extension.
We have a DMU 65 with a table that swings 90 deg from what the UMC does. Our programmers always have the workpiece facing the window. Fortunately the DMU is ridiculously beefy so this doesn't matter.
Hass biggest problem is the size of the ways. The ways on my 2010 sl30 compared to my 2002 Mazak qt30 is massive. On the Mazak, they are like 3 times the size of the sl30..
yea i would stil go for a DMG if i wanted a 5 axis machine. (DMU 50 3gen, Evolution ect ect) yes more expansive but .... but with the stuf we make .... we also need the better build quality
Caution, we all know DMG is slipping when it comes to build quality. Grob, Kern, Makino and GF are all top contenders.
Given your comments about rigidity on the UMC, would you recommend adding a TRT210 unit to a VF2 instead?
Yes! In fact, our next video is all about that.
our chip conveyor always glogs too. and it trickles the coolant out the the slots causing it leak all over the floor...
I bet that would make you happy.
Especially considering it's a fairly new machine design.
@@weldmachine yeah its disappointing.
We are now evaluating a 5axis to buy. Looking at Mazak, DMG Doosan Okuma and Hass. The price of Hass is just so much lower, but on paper the performance look the same. What is your take?
Don't get the haas
The new UMC’s are just not great.... where the first was awesome imo.
Chip conveyors suck now, I’ve seen people with M19 tool orientation problems with tool changes, G187 just not working... at all! Etc etc.
When reading your comment i was looking for the Read more to click on, LOL.
Seems there is a fairly long list of Don't Likes for a HAAS 5 Axis.
I did not have huge expectations they would be in the Great Machine category.
Even Jay woke up at one point and brought Doosan Lathe.
How’s the Through spindle coolant at tool change after drilling ? We get explosion of coolant.
That's a purge of the through coolant line with air at the tool change.
@@PiersonWorkholding do you think it’s safe we have the HSK spindle and first time using through coolant for everyone here .
What do you mean 2000 h per year.
The year has 8760 productive hours 😄 time to invest in some automation and improve the OEE.
Do you have any experience with the TRT160 or TRT210 on a VF that you can compare against the stiffness the UMC 500?
No but any rotary on a VF series is sure to be more rigid. The B and C axis platters are not the weak link.
We have a umc750, umc500, a vf4 w/trt210 and 5 vf2 trt160’s. The trt’s are pretty damn rigid but where the umc’s shine is bigger parts that won’t fit in the trt window, also if we need more 3 axis only, we can throw a vice or big fixture plate on top of the platter. But I haven’t noticed any accuracy issues with the umc’s but most part familys for those machines are +/- .005
Thank you for a review! I'm looking into buying a UMC 500 but with HSK spindle option. Do you know if Haas's HSK spindles are reliable and rigid?
Hi, is there any particular reason you are looking at the HSK spindle?
@@rssilks the main reason is the rigidity while using long-reach toolholders. And also I consider that utilizing dual-contact is more suitable for 15.000 rpms as we are doing many surfacing jobs (however, thats in theory :) )
The UMC-500 is definitely NOT the machine for surfacing. The rigidity won't get any better with an hsk spindle because the mechanism the spindle rides on has too much potential for tolerance stack up error. The VM series is much more rigid, heavy and appropriate for that type of machining.
@@PiersonWorkholding thanks for the answer. We are doing some fancy-style parts for food packing industry from aluminum so there is no hard roughing. We just need it to provide us with an excellent surface finish while 3d countouring on 15k RPM with long toolholders. For example, i have a brand new VF2SS and i really DO NOT like the surface finish it gives us on its 12.000 rpm even on a lowest feedrates possible (all toolhoolders are new too and well balanced), but it gives a perfect finish while running 8000-9000 rpms
@@ICON.Engineering_ If you want excellent surface finishes and rigidity look at Mazak. You get what you pay for.
i bought a umc 750 on sale and paid it off in 6 months, i definitely haven't experienced the rigidity issues with it you seem to be having
We havent seen the rigidity issues in finishing other than the head does sag and the table does dip, but have seen the head bounce in the x during heavy roughing.
@@Bdod1124 mine's a version 2 with the new castings, is yours?
@@SuperAWaC an NGC made last year have the new castings?
@@SuperAWaC i mean we have 5 of em
@@Bdod1124 if it has the big heavy exterior door its the old type, if it has the smaller interior door it's the new type
Where do you get those paper towel holders?
amzn.to/37BMj3m
That's why most 5 axis machines are a lot bigger for same table size. The y axis ways would extend to the sides of the table rather than be in the back of the table. First generation umc750 had exactly same problem, lacking y axis rigidity. A bit disappointing that they stil havent been able to cure it. Same time most of the competitors cost atleast twice as much so...
There has been some talk of a New Generation HAAS 5 axis model series, which has fixed the problems you mentioned.
But that doesn't do much for the Die Hards who try to support a local manufacturer and purchased there machines pre New Gen series ????
carrier stock, I call it grip stock
I call it the hat
I want to know if you would buy it again
In my experience Haas quality has been autrocious over last year. 2 umc 750 less than year and both on are 2nd spindles and leaking like sieves
You can always tell when Gene Haas inversely ties bonuses to warranty claims.
I think your explanation of the climb vs conventional cutting is somewhat accurate, the reason the machine holds tolerance better in conv cut is there is more load on the cutter and axis, if you tried this with more stock left on the profile you wouldn’t get the same results, your finish would be worse than with climb cutting. Have you ever used a manual mill, try it out with climb vs conv
Hello people of yt, I am considering buying the same machine, my question is does it needs to be bolted down to the floor?
Step up to a Okuma
Titan said it. "Haas are throwaway, light duty"
titan sells his opinions to the highest bidder
@@SuperAWaC exactly.
@@SuperAWaC Yep!
Right , all about helping Cali folks get jobs in the industry till he picked up and moved to Texas.
Basically 2 ops*** on simple square parts...
That is the dream that doesnt really work on real complex parts. :)
The unwanted finger touching the screen is not something i had considered.
It is obvious when you think about.
My concern with Touch Screens is wet hands with tiny little metal chips on your fingers ????
I am curious how long before it becomes permanently scratched.
Unfortunately it is becoming common place with most major machine builders.
The glass on all of our machines is pretty tough and we haven't noticed any scratches. Newer displays have an anti-reflective coating that would most likely be the first thing to go, but so far all of our displays are like-new.
@@PiersonWorkholding
I was not talking about the other machines in your shop.
I was talking about the Touch Screen machine ????
It's the same glass!!!
@@PiersonWorkholding
LOL.
I know Jay.
Thanks for your reply.
Good video too.
Haas better then a mazak ?
sell it to me!!!!!! and then take me on as your apprentice plz. = )
I didn't completely agree with how you talked about the climb vs. conv argument, and especially the chip thinning part at 22:38
I do understand what you meant, but you are using the term 'thinning the chip', which sounds a lot like chip thinning and might confuse people.
I do understand that you get more chatter because of the harsher cut with climb milling in a less rigid machine, but you have to be aware of the rubbing and chip thinning factor with conventional milling.
I'm sure you are aware of it, but people might have more rubbing and tool wear if they conventional cut at too low of a feedrate or DOC compared to the same cut but climb milling.
Thank you for the great video anyway, it's great to have such an insight in a pro environment.
Jog handles are INVALUABLE for indicating parts or stock in.
It's all fun and games until the CNC machine can't do the same thing twice.
Or, would you buy another one
paint doesent stik to stainless
It's not stainless and if it were, it wouldn't need paint.
No way, on that small part, 1.35in, that the dimensional discrepancy is axis deflection. Very disturbing.
2:30 - minor slip of the tongue 😀
dude ill give ya 500 bucks cash right now
Fuck you're generous!
@@SirRootes ya just trying to help the guy out lol
Wow, my major in college wasn't even ME, but I can see that this is a seriously flawed design. Stacking the Z axis, onto the Y axis, onto the X axis creates a system of cantilevers that at their extreme limits means the cutting tool is as far as 32 inches away from the ridgid frame of the machine. I am surprised that HAAS okayed the design of this in the early stages of manufacture. The same exact functionality is available in the standard VMC format with the 4th and 5th axes mounted on the table. And that is inherently more ridgid, and resistant to resonant vibration.