I started my company with a DIY CNC router. 5500$. Ran it 3 years, realized my company was growing, got a tormach 770m 7 months ago and it was a low-risk low-cost and allowed me to stay in my garage with low overhead but a massive leap in productivity. Barring a massive boom opposed to my slow and steady consistent growth, I plan to get another Tormach, stay in my garage a few more years, stack $$, save up, and expand into a commercial spot when the risk is lower.
Don't you think converting a chinese VMC is cheaper and better than a Tormach? I'm about to build my second CNC. I have bought a 2.5Kw Spindle + Inverter, next step is to buy the XY table + Z column (no leadscrews, no handles, I can get the parts only). Add ballscrews, motors and the 2.5kw spindle. The total cost is estimated around 4000$. Now the DIY balance act will be to add an ATC to this system (the spindle includes an ATC). My first CNC cost around 2000$ I'm running the original 750W spindle, the machine is awesome. I'm even doing rigid tapping with it. What would hold me back on the Haas is that I have a lot experience with LinuxCNC and did a lot customization to it for my first machine.
@@mrechbreger Do you want to make parts or spend your time dinking around converting and debugging a machine? DIY CNC can be a fun hobby but only make financial sense if you value your time at $0. Once you are making money the worst thing you can do is waste time coaxing parts out of a machine instead of spending that time selling and shipping product. Conversions are the worst because you're the machine designer and most commercial machines have hundreds and thousands of hours of testing and modification before they ship the first one. I did multiple conversions of small Chinese machines before I got my Tormach 1100. I learned a lot and made a few parts but once I got the 1100 I stopped thinking about the machine and just made parts. If I needed to make a lot of parts I'd call one of the job shops I know but for making 1-10 pieces of 95% aluminum parts that fit in a shoebox the 1100 gets it done, though at current prices they do not seem like as good a deal as when I got mine 10 years ago. Then again even a little bench top mini-mill is twice the price it was back then too 😒
@@sansbury95 I'm not so sure. I started with a zero knowledge background and converted a small mill. Once you know what you're doing a conversion doesn't take so long anymore and you learn quite a bit about mechanical design & tolerances. I wanted to go the 0-risk path and LinuxCNC is doing a very good job here. Now I'm adding linear glass scales to my first CNC. I want to use it for fault control . I'm doing many small parts the CNC mill itself is not necessarily the tough part but things like deburring plastic / steel gears automatically. It requires a whole set of different knowledge again. I'm also doing gear hobbing on my machine. I think I'd have to fiddle around with the Tormach as well if I'd have one. as always it depends what you want to do... 0$ time I'd also call education.
Fear of debt can also be viewed as fear of not willing to stretch and grow. If one can not run a business that can out perform a 2.9% interest, then they seriously need to reconsider going into business. TO answer the question, Tormach is a hobby or low volume option. The same $15k the buys a used Tormach also buys an older TM1. Older TM1 with a 4K spindle and 200ipm rapids can be reset in the user editable perimeters the TM1P settings that yield 6K spindle and 400 IPM. (I did this to my 05’ TM1) The Haas will allow you to grow as its all CT40 tools, the same tools the next level machine will use. Vrs. The Tormach using BT30!? Tool holders. When you upgrade to a faster stronger machine regardless of the brand your 90% more likely to be looking at CT40. My 2005 TM1 was bought used in 2011 for $13k. It made me 4x its purchase price and sold (with my MDI set TM1P settings to 6K and 400IPM) for $22k in 2014. That machine owned me nothing. I saved all my CT40 tooling and now my 2021 VF2 arrives in February will use those tools. Oh and 20% down no payments for 6 months at 2.9%, I can pay it off with cash at that point BUT I will not as I can use MY cash to earn far more than 2.9% that the payment costs. Don’t fear debt when properly used, in fact use it and put it to work fo you.
When you open up shop you might be expecting a burn rate, so by definition you won't outperform a .1% interest. Of course you should account for cashflow and have timeframes for your burn -> earn and so you can 'increase' your burn leeway by taking loans instead of buying outright and having no cash-flow. But either way, if all you can do is find the cheapest good condition used machine, I believe it is possible to be worth it to buy it outright instead of taking a loan. But yes, in principle I agree with you.
I think it depends a lot on what your doing, if your selling a specific product, get the cheapest machine that will do the job. But it seems like most people who are starting a machine shop from scratch often can't say for sure what they will be doing. If that's the case, and you know you will be able to get work, get the most capable machine you can afford, you won't regret it in the long run
As a Tormach 770 Series 3 owner I can speak to this fairly. I know exactly what the machine can do. When I bought mine new almost 3 years ago I spent 2 years learning how to use it (in my spare time when I wasn't busy with my regular day job) and the last year or so it's been making me money. At about 8k new at that time it was dirt cheap for what it provided, any all the tooling and and other tools I needed to outfit a basic shop to make what I needed to make cost me about double that all in. That's very cheap. The Tormach and my CnC work area is in a tiny adjunct space in my regular business location completely unrelated to machining... and I can run it whenever time allows filling in all sorts of time when I might otherwise not have work. That's a win-win because I'm learning new skills for a possible full change of career as I age and work that I can do anywhere in the country if I move. From a machine perspective, the Tormach was purchased cash, no debt. And it's cost and design and usage make it a machine where you aren't burning money if it's idle. I can run it 2 or 3 days a week, make good money with it, and move on. A complete new 10k RPM spindle cartridge is $1000 and you can change it yourself in an afternoon if heaven forbid you ever need one. The steppers get the job done well and are only a few hundred a piece to replace. Someone mentioned the Tormach seems like a manual mill... well that's unfair it certainly has excellent controls and decent accuracy. However I will grant that the Pathpilot interface and a keyboard let you jog the machine for quick manual work incredibly easily. So much more capable than a manual mill with wheels when you just need to deck a piece of metal or just ran a few passes by hand and do it NOW. Big machines just aren't set up to make that really easy. What the machine is NOT is powerful. It will get a HAAS mini mill job done just far slower. And since like Pierson Workholding said if parts sit and the machine isn't cranking all day you havn't maxed your speed needs yet. I do titanium on the 770. Yep, it can. It's not amazing compared to big machines but it will make the parts if you learn the limits. What IS amazing is how cheap it gets it done. I have no desire whatsoever for a HAAS unless I suddenly have to stop my regular job and go full time making parts. THEN I'd run the Tormach 10 hours a day and build up enough money to buy a used HAAS for cash and move up. From there? It's unlikely I'd ever need more. So there is an example of where a Tormach fits perfect. It's a fantastic machine when you need to make parts but you need a machine that can still pay if it sits more than it works.
Now that I have my second CNC Mill I would add New versus Used. Used is a great way to save a lot of money. Even in a booming economy there are a ton of great deals out there. Tool changer is required and you never have enough positions. Flood Collant required. Now that I have small production runs I need steerable coolant, didn't know I would need it. The lack of a Chip conveyor is my latest pain point. Tooling is such an expense I would look to start with something that has CAT40 from the start. Not having the same tool holding between my 2 machines is a real pain and expense. Especially for the specialized tooling. I can not move jobs between the machines easily. Even the controller being different makes it and having 2 CAM outputs for the same jobs painful.
Tormachs are fantastic as a stepping stone and a great starting point. People try too hard to compare them as a machine, when they need to be looked at as a solution. If all you have is a basement to get started in, no business history to get a decent loan, or you are "soft starting" your business, the tormach is the way to go. Even the price puts them in totally different brackets. I have 55k in my MM2 before I even got tooling, My 770 was less than 14k with tooling and the needed infrastructure, and that thing made a lot of parts (and still does).
I don't believe in stepping stones. I would much rather spend more and buy the machine I am going to grow into, rather than try to save a little bit and purchase a machine I am going to relatively quickly outgrow. They are great garage or small hobby machines, but in my personal opinion, have no real place in a production/industrial environment. Wanna play with the big boys, ya gotta pay like the big boys. Haas is the lowest end I'd go and even at that, Doosan and Brother are my real bottom end, if I were spending my own money that is. For example: www.ebay.com/itm/Doosan-Puma-GT2100-CNC-Lathe-F1/163880925932?hash=item2628107aec:g:URMAAOSwEhldjSgV www.ebay.com/itm/Doosan-Puma-GT2100M-CNC-Lathe-F2/163640204332?hash=item2619b75c2c:g:xmgAAOSwpfdcfuUo
@@jrod1076 Yes, it was 100% worth it. Given my situation now it would not be worth buying another though. My workload has gone way up and the processes I'm implementing really require the more advanced options such as probing and macros. If I had to start all over again, I'd absolutely get another tormach. I think the lines start to grey a little bit with the more fleshed out MX series machines though.
Interesting, your comment on process vs machining speed. In my business we made our reputation on quality, responsiveness, and delivery. Never looked it as process, but that is a very good description of what we do. Our current bottleneck is machine speed. We form very small sheet-metal parts and were looking to find small press brakes with faster speeds. We designed a test build, tested it on our current machines, then visited a shop with the new press brakes we were interested in. Turns out that the new press brakes did not offer a significant enough speed advantage to make it worth the investment. Instead we spent considerably less money bringing in a programmer to help us speed up our current press brakes.
I guess a question is, if you're going to finance it anyway, does it make sense to go through the transitional step to start with a Mini Mill or TM at what amounts to half the price of a VF2? Or bite the bullet and take those heavier payments for the first year while ramping up to fill the capacity of a faster machine? It's always a tradeoff. If you do really well, you just get another machine and have two spindles from the sound of it, but still.
Great insight Jay. A few years ago I ended up going with a used Haas Mini as well, a 2002 in fact! It's a great machine all around. My 2 cents would be... buy the best that you can reasonably afford that will do what you need.
I'm glad this channel exist because Titans of CNC gets you all excited with feeds and speeds, and big machines, and making it happen, and BOOM, and all. They send you on a motivational trip and this channel is a good counterweight that puts your feet down to earth and reconsider if you actually need those monster machines.
Competition is fierce as hell and you will know when your best skills exceeds the limitations of your machines,tooling and tools, manual or CNC. It has to be a calculated risk and knowing your current business and your customer, your projected growth the market/industry and your competition is extremely critical. There is so much more to your decisions and sometimes you can't just tip toe into it so research well and execute and if it's a bigger machine then go for it and set that path on fire for success. My machines from manuals and CNC were the best decisions I ever made, especially my Fadal and Haas machines...Great Video.
Great to hear. Using debt to buy a machine is like starting out in 5th gear. It has the potential to get you up to speed but also big potential of stalling.
A garage shop that's not wired for the needed amperage/HP will be limited in how big a machine it can handle. Not forgetting the need for a compressor of sufficient size. Tooling will eat up a good part of the budget no matter what the machine.
Jay I want to commend you on your answers and being so honest and forthright! In today's world, I find that rare unfortunately, with more and more individuals we do business with... we are working on that, meaning not doing work for them any longer! Again, thank you for your info, alot of times I am trying to sneak a video in while taking a short break. KUDO'S brother! Seth
I have 2 Haas TM1s and a tormach 1100 and the haas tm1 is a much superior machine as far as production, speed, and rigidity is concerned over the tormach. My tormach is a 2011 model and is still working great so its a good machine just not rigid and capable of handling large cuts or larger end mills for hogging but great for smaller runs of parts and prototyping. The tools also try to pull out of the tormach under a heavy cut. I don't think he is giving the TM series machines enough credit they are great machines and big step up from the tormach.
Bought a new MiniMill in July for less than a Tormach MX. Freight put me just over what an MX would have cost. But the MiniMill is an industrial machine versus a light industrial machine.
@@spazzywhitebelt Had been waiting for Tormach to release the MX since Q4 of 2018. Haas had a sale in July with 22% discount on stock MiniMill. I knew at that price point, Tormach couldn't complete. (Tormach at the time did not publish the price of 1100MX). About a month later Tormach released the MX. Price the MX with ATC - lands just under $28K delivered. MiniMill landed for about a grand over that (include the convenience package).
@@JS-cs8gz yeash, I didn't realize the 1100mx came in that high with all the options. We started with a bare bones 1100, can't beat the price of that, but it seems like once you get the bells and whistles you're in the price range of a Haas.
@@GrimstodDesh The options you'd need to add to an 1100MX to equal a standard Minimill (with 10k spindle upgrade to match the Tormach) put it just $7k less than the Haas. But the Haas has 5.5HP more on the spindle with CAT40 rather than BT30, double the rapids/cutting feedrate, a professional grade control and a worldwide service network. Plus, if you decide to upgrade to a larger Haas in the future, you get to take all your knowledge with you, whereas the 1100 is the top of the line Tormach. Now, I'll agree that if you start going for premium options like positional coolant nozzle, Renishaw probes, through spindle coolant, etc...then the Haas price will dwarf even a fully loaded 1100MX. But apples to apples, the Haas is the better buy.
I started with and still run older Fadal machines... And ya know what they paid for them selfs with in a few months and still hold tolerances. No debt! I can't agree more!
Speeds and feeds are important for a machine. Our work one machine takes over 20 minutes longer to make the same exact part from the exact same program just because the rapid and the feed acceleration and deceleration were faster and tool changes quicker
I don't agree with some of your philosophies, but we have different brains, and that is the way it goes. :) "If parts are sitting, it totally negates the speed of the machine." Only if the machine is not running when the parts are sitting. If the machine is running to capacity, you will get the value from the speed. Still, a poor programmer or process engineer will negate the speed sometimes. :)
if you are looking to grow and or go 5 axis, you would need to go with a Haas. You cant beet the price of adding 5 axis on a Haas and if you are gonna grow almost anyone off the street has ran a Haas
I’ll say one thing. You can buy a Tormach in less than 20 minutes. Trying to get a Haas is like buying a house with months of waiting and no response for questions. If the part is small and aluminum go with the 770, it runs circles around the 1100 when it comes to 1/4” and smaller end mills. I went through the used machine nightmare. If you’re starting a business you want something reliable and a backup. 2 Tormachs > 1 Haas
Whatever you can afford without making payments on a machine, if you're just starting out and you don't have paying work or selling products it would be irresponsible. If you can afford the better machine, go for it. The way most people choose to go with the Tormach is minus tool changer and enclosure because the accessories bring it more into TM territory price-wise.
@@motoflyte last time I priced one out with toolchanger and enclosure and all stuff it was more like $25k. I bought a PCNC 1100 for like $8k then added a stand and power drawbar a few years ago, built my own enclosure.
@@multiHappyHacker I was referring to the 440. I bought a new 440 basic machine then put it on a precision neavy duty roll around table I found on craigslist. I also made my own enclosure. In the end it cost me about $12k with all the tooling and workholding.
Let's say your target is 25K. The biggest dilemma I think is you can find really good condition mid-2000s Haas VF 1 or VF2 for the same price as a new Tormach say 1100M and if you go for the MX you could get a much better newer Haas. But size of the machine being an issue with a garage shop, trying to figure out how to shoehorn a VF2 in a 3 car garage is not easy. The other issue is eventually with growth you will always outgrow the Tormach and probably not outgrow the Haas. So why even go down the Tormach road when you know you will eventually hit that wall and have to retool.
My path, made diy lowrider 3 cnc to cut my boat parts, learned alot. Been asked to cut Doors or parts (wood) but currently its packed. Should set it up for winter again. Anyway, been looking to get minilathe and smaller sieg manual mill. Convert the sieg to cnc. Why? I dont have the Cash to buy even cheapest tormach. Also i want to get my tools to earn money for me. Decade or so, been just buying tools to get things done myself. Its time to put them also to earn money. I will eventually get big and rugged enough cnc router table and tormach, but before that theres plenty of stuff to do as one of parts for people. Goal is to get sale, quality better than lasercutted part. Theres plenty of sales to get from one offs or small series of parts. Just cant make day Job from those sales. But more machine time till enough cash is good start towards goal rather than aiming to get debt and no customerbase. Everyones route is different and i see this as zero risk path, i need the machines anyway for my hobbys. Could also lead to future Job.
Job shop in business since 1989 here. Loans are not that big of a deal. I’d rather keep cash in the bank and make a note payment than blow your load and not have cash on hand. You’ll need that cash in the bank during the slow times.
Good opportunity to make a distinction between going into debt and getting a loan. Having enough cash in the bank to cover a loan does not lead to a negative net worth. Getting a loan because you don't have the cash is debt. I'll take a 12 month 0% Haas loan all day long and sit on cash. - JP
Ive built cnc's,plasma tables etc... looking to buy a ready to go 1100, but honestly nervous about bring in the biz. Not sure an intermiate step i can make before dropping 30k
Hey JP. Thanks for the video. I'm trying to decide between the MiniMill and the TM-1P. I have way more flexibility with the TM, I'm just worried about the accuracy. At work we've held tenths with our mini's no problem. Since you've run both. Have you noticed an accuracy difference between the TM and MM? Thanks!
It depends on the distance between features. If they're a few inches apart, both machines should be similar. With a longer ballscrew you'll naturally have more thermal growth. The TM requires manual greasing so if you stay on top of that, accuracy should stay consistent.
i wish i had $40,000-50,000 sitting around so i didn't have to go into debt. but you know if i took the time to save up that much its possible i could make 10x that with the machine in the same time it took to save for it. probably take me 10 years to save that much.
Hardinge has the best value machine by far... That being said I built my business with 2-TM mills I still own. But Id never buy a VF series because of the way they nickel and dime on the options. Hardinge V-1000 is the best value and Id put mine against a Haas any day.
Just watched a video about your mill. Very nice machine. What made you decide to go with the Hardinge over other brands ? I mainly ask as i don,t know much of the V-1000 until you mentioned it.
@@weldmachineI'm glad you asked.... I was after a budget 20x40 machine and stumbled across it at a Gosiger open house. I had to have the 24" y for a customer. It is the heaviest 4020 cframe mill on the market and has heavy heavy ball screws and trucks. I also do die work so the 12k air over oil spindle was kinda a must have for finishing. But what really put the icing on the cake was the options... chip conveyor, side arm, hsm, ethernet, list goes on and on all standard. None of this nickel and dime stuff. And the spindle is true hp not haas power. And big plus capable. When I bought mine with a 4th rotary and tsc it was 2 tenths under 6 digits. Great value. Also, not to take away from this video I use the larger quick change Pierson plate and love it.
@@Renegade48445 Yes. Dollar value is a big point that most of us Need to think about. I Love Mazak machines. But i would not buy a brand new one mostly for the same reasons. $$$$$$ If you Need a machine like a Mazak Why Not. Otherwise it,s a fair way up the list as Buy Now option ?? Unfortunately ???? We need to live in the real world. Where our $ needs to stretch as fair as it can. From what you write seems you were able to resolve this annoying problem, lol. I have not looked as yet but do you post anything on TH-cam with this machine. ( my next thing to. is have a look. ) Thanks for your reply. Hopefully you do post something would be good to see your mill in action. Peter.
Knife making is not precision machining. I know because I do high precision machining at work using a haas with a magnifiying camera to set offsets and to check dimensions after completion. Also, knifemaking is a hobby. You are never going to make a large income from knifemaking.....because everybody is doing it and because the market to sell knives is just too small. I own a tormach. It will cut 4140 just fine. It's not as fast or as strong as a haas, but a haas will cost you 4 times as much as a tormach. So, buy a tormach to do your hobby craft. If somehow you are successful..Then buy a haas. But do't go into debt $75k just for a hobby that will likely never pay well.
If you have the work and income then dive in and use debt to leverage your productivity. I ran on cash bought machines for years. Never wanted debt. Once I changed my thinking and bought new machines with big payments my company grew so fast. I doubled in the first year I got the new machines. No down time from break downs. Faster machines. Better controls. Big machines with lots of parts packed on running into the night, every night. That was an extra 9 hours every night just from one machine. Now most of these machines have paid themselves off and are our assets.
Great vid some excellent tips there, I'm doing the maths on a Doosan lynx2100LSYA and you have given some great bits of advice to reflect on . cheers Charlie
MasterMoparMan he’s sponsored by tormach - which is why most of his videos are made on their machines. It gives a pretty cool demonstration of what you can do with them. But it’s also why he won’t ever compare them to other machines.
Possibly! There was a NOTICIBLE difference in accuracy between our Super MiniMill and our other medium pitch ballscrew machines. It comes down to a lower resolution per step of the servo.
What about DMG MORI do ya use those? I work with few new dmg mori lathes and I'm very displeased that they don't hold the tolerances well from part to part
I don't believe DMG Mori is a good value. You're paying for lots of bells and whistles and the name. I purchase based on value to maximize company profits... THIS company's profits, not the machine tool builder.
We are looking for a machine to produce prototype, custom parts and small series of manufacturing parts internally in our company. We produce in POM, ALU and Stainless Steel primarily, I don't really care about speed of milling - it is the design to prototype to test, to rework to finished product that is the business killer for us when using sub suppliers. Is there anything that the TM series from Haas cannot do properly if I don't care whether the part takes 20 minutes or 4 hours?
@@PiersonWorkholding Thanks - I was worried about stainless steel and especially fine details in stainless, but I didn't quite see why is could not be used.
Neither for a small shops first mill. A nice used Bridgeport Knee Mill with a Centroid CNC upgrade can be had for under $8k. If you already have customers and contracts lined up to churn out high production widgets, then ok get a Haas. A used Haas TM-1 is also a good option for a first cnc mill. Otherwise, why spend $20, $50, or $100k on your first mill?? As for Tormach, don't waste your time and money on an under weighted, crappy tolerance toy!
You will never be able to do any volume work witha bridgeport cnc upgraded mill. And it will never be accurate enough. I know, I've used all three ....tormach, cnc upgrade, and haas
even 12,000 rpm doesnt cut it in aluminum, customers are buyung 24,000 for aluminum , with todays tooling any thing less than 12-15 hp spindle is trouble, my first cnc was an okada 500 that had trouble with any tap larger than 3/8, spindle hp and rpm is more important than rapids
DMG MORI is very nice but most start up companies can't come close to buying them that's why Haas and Tormach has been the topic in most areas because it's not ment to compare to a Mori or a Makino they are ment to get you started cheap or shoot your shot and fail cheaper.
Raymond Rafalski makino is a superior machine but DMG is not. Absolutely not worth the money! Haas on the other hand is not as good as a makino or a Kitamura or a matsuura, but Haas is worth the money!
@@3JS2001. That's a preference I believe. My DMG Moris never disappointed me. Also I believe it depends on what type of work your doing. If all you need is a drill press then a makino is a waist of money even more so than a tormach.
The question was specifically Tormach vs Haas, but Doosan lathes are a great value too. They're 5%-10% more expensive, but come with more features and are very well built in my opinion.
Pierson Workholding doosan lathe use to be superior, and I owned a few. However, the new Haas st lathe are a lot better specially with the BMT turrets. Also, with the added value in service and support, the Haas is the better machine
I feel your pain on the monthly payment. 796.22 each month here. Probably the best advice that I ignored when starting out was don't go into debt. Debt just increases the distance before you are in the black. I will say this though when it comes to buying a machine. Go with a machine that you can accurately make parts on right out of the box. I don't own a HAAS nor a Tormach so I have no real direct experience with either but one common theme I have seen on Tormach mills is be prepared to make a lot of 'adjustments' just to be able to cut a semi accurate cut.
Like with any other investment in your business it is about why you go into debt, and I think that JP is wrong in that advise. Debt is a business cost that you undertake to achieve something in your business and if those 800$ you have in financing makes you an average of more than 800$/month then it improves your bottom line. The problem with debt is that it is your wings if you have an upswing in business, and if your business goes the opposite way then it is the anchor around your neck. It makes your business more risky but it also gears your business for growth.
VALUE. That is the only term that is important when choosing a CNC machine. Value is a balance of many factors: Affordability, Capability, Suitability for the current needs, Capacity to absorb future growth, etc. A machine that you cannot afford has no value. A machine that cannot satisfy current needs has little value. A machine that has too much capability is not a good value. A machine that devastates you financially if you have a couple of slow months is a terrible value. Your own value of time is critical. A slow machine may sound like a reasonable compromise until you factor in your own time and add that to the cost of the machine. Remember this: THE COST OF THE MACHINE IS NOT WHAT YOU PAID FOR IT BUT RATHER HOW MUCH IS COSTS OVER ITS LIFETIME. Slow machines cost time. Over the life of the machine it can cost an enormous amount of time. Fast machines cost money. If you don't have the work, speed is just wasted money. So much to consider.
They aren't compatible though. The price is magnatudes different. Haas also demands to install the unit. The Haas will not fit in the same space. The Haas is a better machine by ever indicator, but this isn't apples to apples.
I’m sorry Jake and anyone else with a brain. If, if I say, you 1: have the money and 2: have the space that’s about as simple a decision as there is. Buy the Tormach. LOL just kidding. There’s nothing wrong with a Tormach but if I have the above 2options I will always go with a pro milling system like Haas. I am not ripping on Tormach at all, many wonderful things have been built on a Tormach and many more will be built with Tormach. There are just somethings you can only get with that big step up.
The guy asking that question is new to machining, and the differences of the machines he asks about tells me he does not know what kind of work he will be doing and has no business opening a machine shop. Either that,---or the question is made up. :)
A used Haas is ook for starting a business, but I wouldn't grow a business with a Haas. You can buy a 20 year old machine that's superior to a haas is just about every way and cheaper. Used Haas' cost too much. Yes I know the video is Haas vs Tormach, but there are better machines for cheaper out there then those two.
@@thorwaldjohanson2526 Last month I purchased a 2007 Hardinge XR1000 with 4th axis mill for $10,000. It needs a spindle. Which will be done by the end of this month. It's a better machine in every aspect to a Haas and cheaper (even with the spindle repair) than a Haas VF3 of the same vintage.
Why do you need to start your own business now? Why not save some more money to start it right and not play with toys? I personally dont like the Tormach, in my eyes it is more a manual mill, Chinese produced, boxways, weak spindle, weird tool interface, steppers (hello are we building a 3D Printer or a CNC?). I have build my own small "VMC" 7hp, 30 taper, 12k rpm, 600ipm cutting, 1200ipm rapid, 10x20 Table and got tooled up for around 13k. Im 21 years old, if I can do this, you can at least as good as me, the Internet taught me almost all the knowledge I needed.
What To Buy ???? Many Questions to ask. Buy what you need. Not what you want. Is a great place to start. Everyone sees the After machines ? The Mills, Lathes etc. They don,t see where they started. EGO is another one ???? Buying to show what i have. Again Not what i need ? If you have enough money to start a full blown machine shop. Then Don,t start a machine shop ? There are a lot of better businesses to start. If you start small and grow to be a full blown machine shop. So be it. Keep this thinking in mind when starting out. Do what you can do, with what you have first. Then grow as you can. Don,t look to much at what others are doing or buying. This adds NO value to how you grow your business. Keep your head down. And just work. Is your main focus.
People watch TH-cam too much.. tarmac don't have the horse power. The haas is more expensive obviously but its the better machine. Unless you want to plug a tormac into a regular outlet and machine in your garage.
If you DON'T need precision, buy a tormach. If you DON'T need accuracy, buy a tormach if you want a CHINA made cnc, buy a tormach. You truly get what you pay for. Do your research on their customer service before buying a tormach. Good luck if you buy a tormach, your going to need it.
The company I work for bought a tarmac 1100pc. Terrible machine. Tolerance are off. No cutting power. Unreliable. No on site repair. Not for high probuction. Tools pull out all the time. U get what you pay for. Buy cheap get cheap. There's NO comparison to Haas
Wait...lack of controller innovation and you mentioned Brother and Doosan? Doosan has the same Fanuc controller from 1986 and we just picked up a new Brother M140X2 last year that has the exact same controller as our TC-32BN QT which is 16 years old. Also, the next gen control on Haas allows you to input an M code in the program that pulls up a media file (image, video, etc), has remote status alerts and WIFI networking. How is that not innovative compared to the brands you mentioned?
Some good unrelated info, but pretty worthless considering the title of the video. i would have just titled it as general tips when buying a machine or something else.
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
"If parts are sitting it doesn't matter what machine you have." Nice video! Thank you for putting this together. Good stuff!
Yep, that was an excellent point
I started my company with a DIY CNC router. 5500$. Ran it 3 years, realized my company was growing, got a tormach 770m 7 months ago and it was a low-risk low-cost and allowed me to stay in my garage with low overhead but a massive leap in productivity. Barring a massive boom opposed to my slow and steady consistent growth, I plan to get another Tormach, stay in my garage a few more years, stack $$, save up, and expand into a commercial spot when the risk is lower.
Don't you think converting a chinese VMC is cheaper and better than a Tormach?
I'm about to build my second CNC.
I have bought a 2.5Kw Spindle + Inverter, next step is to buy the XY table + Z column (no leadscrews, no handles, I can get the parts only). Add ballscrews, motors and the 2.5kw spindle. The total cost is estimated around 4000$. Now the DIY balance act will be to add an ATC to this system (the spindle includes an ATC).
My first CNC cost around 2000$ I'm running the original 750W spindle, the machine is awesome. I'm even doing rigid tapping with it.
What would hold me back on the Haas is that I have a lot experience with LinuxCNC and did a lot customization to it for my first machine.
@@mrechbreger This comments is gold! Thank you man!
I'm looking at getting a Tormach 1100mx are they worth it and does it keep the tolerances? Any reliability problems?
@@mrechbreger Do you want to make parts or spend your time dinking around converting and debugging a machine? DIY CNC can be a fun hobby but only make financial sense if you value your time at $0. Once you are making money the worst thing you can do is waste time coaxing parts out of a machine instead of spending that time selling and shipping product. Conversions are the worst because you're the machine designer and most commercial machines have hundreds and thousands of hours of testing and modification before they ship the first one.
I did multiple conversions of small Chinese machines before I got my Tormach 1100. I learned a lot and made a few parts but once I got the 1100 I stopped thinking about the machine and just made parts. If I needed to make a lot of parts I'd call one of the job shops I know but for making 1-10 pieces of 95% aluminum parts that fit in a shoebox the 1100 gets it done, though at current prices they do not seem like as good a deal as when I got mine 10 years ago. Then again even a little bench top mini-mill is twice the price it was back then too 😒
@@sansbury95 I'm not so sure. I started with a zero knowledge background and converted a small mill.
Once you know what you're doing a conversion doesn't take so long anymore and you learn quite a bit about mechanical design & tolerances.
I wanted to go the 0-risk path and LinuxCNC is doing a very good job here.
Now I'm adding linear glass scales to my first CNC. I want to use it for fault control .
I'm doing many small parts the CNC mill itself is not necessarily the tough part but things like deburring plastic / steel gears automatically. It requires a whole set of different knowledge again.
I'm also doing gear hobbing on my machine. I think I'd have to fiddle around with the Tormach as well if I'd have one.
as always it depends what you want to do...
0$ time I'd also call education.
Fear of debt can also be viewed as fear of not willing to stretch and grow. If one can not run a business that can out perform a 2.9% interest, then they seriously need to reconsider going into business. TO answer the question, Tormach is a hobby or low volume option. The same $15k the buys a used Tormach also buys an older TM1. Older TM1 with a 4K spindle and 200ipm rapids can be reset in the user editable perimeters the TM1P settings that yield 6K spindle and 400 IPM. (I did this to my 05’ TM1) The Haas will allow you to grow as its all CT40 tools, the same tools the next level machine will use. Vrs. The Tormach using BT30!? Tool holders. When you upgrade to a faster stronger machine regardless of the brand your 90% more likely to be looking at CT40. My 2005 TM1 was bought used in 2011 for $13k. It made me 4x its purchase price and sold (with my MDI set TM1P settings to 6K and 400IPM) for $22k in 2014. That machine owned me nothing. I saved all my CT40 tooling and now my 2021 VF2 arrives in February will use those tools. Oh and 20% down no payments for 6 months at 2.9%, I can pay it off with cash at that point BUT I will not as I can use MY cash to earn far more than 2.9% that the payment costs. Don’t fear debt when properly used, in fact use it and put it to work fo you.
When you open up shop you might be expecting a burn rate, so by definition you won't outperform a .1% interest. Of course you should account for cashflow and have timeframes for your burn -> earn and so you can 'increase' your burn leeway by taking loans instead of buying outright and having no cash-flow. But either way, if all you can do is find the cheapest good condition used machine, I believe it is possible to be worth it to buy it outright instead of taking a loan.
But yes, in principle I agree with you.
I think it depends a lot on what your doing, if your selling a specific product, get the cheapest machine that will do the job. But it seems like most people who are starting a machine shop from scratch often can't say for sure what they will be doing. If that's the case, and you know you will be able to get work, get the most capable machine you can afford, you won't regret it in the long run
As a Tormach 770 Series 3 owner I can speak to this fairly. I know exactly what the machine can do. When I bought mine new almost 3 years ago I spent 2 years learning how to use it (in my spare time when I wasn't busy with my regular day job) and the last year or so it's been making me money. At about 8k new at that time it was dirt cheap for what it provided, any all the tooling and and other tools I needed to outfit a basic shop to make what I needed to make cost me about double that all in. That's very cheap. The Tormach and my CnC work area is in a tiny adjunct space in my regular business location completely unrelated to machining... and I can run it whenever time allows filling in all sorts of time when I might otherwise not have work. That's a win-win because I'm learning new skills for a possible full change of career as I age and work that I can do anywhere in the country if I move. From a machine perspective, the Tormach was purchased cash, no debt. And it's cost and design and usage make it a machine where you aren't burning money if it's idle. I can run it 2 or 3 days a week, make good money with it, and move on. A complete new 10k RPM spindle cartridge is $1000 and you can change it yourself in an afternoon if heaven forbid you ever need one. The steppers get the job done well and are only a few hundred a piece to replace. Someone mentioned the Tormach seems like a manual mill... well that's unfair it certainly has excellent controls and decent accuracy. However I will grant that the Pathpilot interface and a keyboard let you jog the machine for quick manual work incredibly easily. So much more capable than a manual mill with wheels when you just need to deck a piece of metal or just ran a few passes by hand and do it NOW. Big machines just aren't set up to make that really easy. What the machine is NOT is powerful. It will get a HAAS mini mill job done just far slower. And since like Pierson Workholding said if parts sit and the machine isn't cranking all day you havn't maxed your speed needs yet. I do titanium on the 770. Yep, it can. It's not amazing compared to big machines but it will make the parts if you learn the limits. What IS amazing is how cheap it gets it done. I have no desire whatsoever for a HAAS unless I suddenly have to stop my regular job and go full time making parts. THEN I'd run the Tormach 10 hours a day and build up enough money to buy a used HAAS for cash and move up. From there? It's unlikely I'd ever need more. So there is an example of where a Tormach fits perfect. It's a fantastic machine when you need to make parts but you need a machine that can still pay if it sits more than it works.
Thanks for this.
Now that I have my second CNC Mill I would add New versus Used. Used is a great way to save a lot of money. Even in a booming economy there are a ton of great deals out there. Tool changer is required and you never have enough positions. Flood Collant required. Now that I have small production runs I need steerable coolant, didn't know I would need it. The lack of a Chip conveyor is my latest pain point. Tooling is such an expense I would look to start with something that has CAT40 from the start. Not having the same tool holding between my 2 machines is a real pain and expense. Especially for the specialized tooling. I can not move jobs between the machines easily. Even the controller being different makes it and having 2 CAM outputs for the same jobs painful.
New vs Used... Great point!
Tormachs are fantastic as a stepping stone and a great starting point. People try too hard to compare them as a machine, when they need to be looked at as a solution. If all you have is a basement to get started in, no business history to get a decent loan, or you are "soft starting" your business, the tormach is the way to go. Even the price puts them in totally different brackets. I have 55k in my MM2 before I even got tooling, My 770 was less than 14k with tooling and the needed infrastructure, and that thing made a lot of parts (and still does).
I don't believe in stepping stones. I would much rather spend more and buy the machine I am going to grow into, rather than try to save a little bit and purchase a machine I am going to relatively quickly outgrow. They are great garage or small hobby machines, but in my personal opinion, have no real place in a production/industrial environment. Wanna play with the big boys, ya gotta pay like the big boys. Haas is the lowest end I'd go and even at that, Doosan and Brother are my real bottom end, if I were spending my own money that is. For example: www.ebay.com/itm/Doosan-Puma-GT2100-CNC-Lathe-F1/163880925932?hash=item2628107aec:g:URMAAOSwEhldjSgV
www.ebay.com/itm/Doosan-Puma-GT2100M-CNC-Lathe-F2/163640204332?hash=item2619b75c2c:g:xmgAAOSwpfdcfuUo
Was the Tormach worth it and would u buy it again?
@@jrod1076 Yes, it was 100% worth it. Given my situation now it would not be worth buying another though. My workload has gone way up and the processes I'm implementing really require the more advanced options such as probing and macros.
If I had to start all over again, I'd absolutely get another tormach. I think the lines start to grey a little bit with the more fleshed out MX series machines though.
Thank you for responding 👍
Interesting, your comment on process vs machining speed. In my business we made our reputation on quality, responsiveness, and delivery. Never looked it as process, but that is a very good description of what we do. Our current bottleneck is machine speed. We form very small sheet-metal parts and were looking to find small press brakes with faster speeds. We designed a test build, tested it on our current machines, then visited a shop with the new press brakes we were interested in. Turns out that the new press brakes did not offer a significant enough speed advantage to make it worth the investment. Instead we spent considerably less money bringing in a programmer to help us speed up our current press brakes.
Good point! Once you get the processes right, then it's time to tackle the speed of the machines. - JP
quality comes from processes, processes is not only about speed.
Great advice! The fastest machine in the world is a waste if it is sitting around waiting.
I guess a question is, if you're going to finance it anyway, does it make sense to go through the transitional step to start with a Mini Mill or TM at what amounts to half the price of a VF2? Or bite the bullet and take those heavier payments for the first year while ramping up to fill the capacity of a faster machine? It's always a tradeoff. If you do really well, you just get another machine and have two spindles from the sound of it, but still.
Great insight Jay. A few years ago I ended up going with a used Haas Mini as well, a 2002 in fact! It's a great machine all around. My 2 cents would be... buy the best that you can reasonably afford that will do what you need.
^^^^^
No debt.
Buy what you can afford.
Upgrade WHEN you can pay cash
I'm glad this channel exist because Titans of CNC gets you all excited with feeds and speeds, and big machines, and making it happen, and BOOM, and all. They send you on a motivational trip and this channel is a good counterweight that puts your feet down to earth and reconsider if you actually need those monster machines.
When some ones knows his drill it is a pleasure to hear it! Subscribed!
Thats what she said
Competition is fierce as hell and you will know when your best skills exceeds the limitations of your machines,tooling and tools, manual or CNC. It has to be a calculated risk and knowing your current business and your customer, your projected growth the market/industry and your competition is extremely critical. There is so much more to your decisions and sometimes you can't just tip toe into it so research well and execute and if it's a bigger machine then go for it and set that path on fire for success. My machines from manuals and CNC were the best decisions I ever made, especially my Fadal and Haas machines...Great Video.
I agree 100 percent with this Q And A. Our company has the same philosophy and has grown our business every year for the last 15 years.
Great to hear. Using debt to buy a machine is like starting out in 5th gear. It has the potential to get you up to speed but also big potential of stalling.
I have a VF2 and would not swap it or anything. It was bought through a leasing program reconditioned. It has paid for itself many many times over.
yes, hass is work horse but rigid and tight tolerance think another oversea machine
@@andy567t like what? What brand and model?
A garage shop that's not wired for the needed amperage/HP will be limited in how big a machine it can handle. Not forgetting the need for a compressor of sufficient size. Tooling will eat up a good part of the budget no matter what the machine.
Buy the best machine you can afford, nobody ever says I wish I would have bought the cheap one.
Yes but you need to define "afford". I highly recommend against, "I can afford the payment". - JP
Jay I want to commend you on your answers and being so honest and forthright! In today's world, I find that rare unfortunately, with more and more individuals we do business with... we are working on that, meaning not doing work for them any longer! Again, thank you for your info, alot of times I am trying to sneak a video in while taking a short break. KUDO'S brother! Seth
I have 2 Haas TM1s and a tormach 1100 and the haas tm1 is a much superior machine as far as production, speed, and rigidity is concerned over the tormach. My tormach is a 2011 model and is still working great so its a good machine just not rigid and capable of handling large cuts or larger end mills for hogging but great for smaller runs of parts and prototyping. The tools also try to pull out of the tormach under a heavy cut. I don't think he is giving the TM series machines enough credit they are great machines and big step up from the tormach.
Bought a new MiniMill in July for less than a Tormach MX. Freight put me just over what an MX would have cost. But the MiniMill is an industrial machine versus a light industrial machine.
Can you lay those #'s out for me, isn't a 1100mx ~20k while a mini mill is ~30k?
@@spazzywhitebelt
Had been waiting for Tormach to release the MX since Q4 of 2018. Haas had a sale in July with 22% discount on stock MiniMill. I knew at that price point, Tormach couldn't complete. (Tormach at the time did not publish the price of 1100MX). About a month later Tormach released the MX. Price the MX with ATC - lands just under $28K delivered. MiniMill landed for about a grand over that (include the convenience package).
@@JS-cs8gz yeash, I didn't realize the 1100mx came in that high with all the options. We started with a bare bones 1100, can't beat the price of that, but it seems like once you get the bells and whistles you're in the price range of a Haas.
@@spazzywhitebelt Once you get all the same bells and whistles on a HAAS then you are looking at three times the cost.
@@GrimstodDesh The options you'd need to add to an 1100MX to equal a standard Minimill (with 10k spindle upgrade to match the Tormach) put it just $7k less than the Haas. But the Haas has 5.5HP more on the spindle with CAT40 rather than BT30, double the rapids/cutting feedrate, a professional grade control and a worldwide service network. Plus, if you decide to upgrade to a larger Haas in the future, you get to take all your knowledge with you, whereas the 1100 is the top of the line Tormach.
Now, I'll agree that if you start going for premium options like positional coolant nozzle, Renishaw probes, through spindle coolant, etc...then the Haas price will dwarf even a fully loaded 1100MX. But apples to apples, the Haas is the better buy.
I started with and still run older Fadal machines... And ya know what they paid for them selfs with in a few months and still hold tolerances.
No debt! I can't agree more!
Speeds and feeds are important for a machine. Our work one machine takes over 20 minutes longer to make the same exact part from the exact same program just because the rapid and the feed acceleration and deceleration were faster and tool changes quicker
I don't agree with some of your philosophies, but we have different brains, and that is the way it goes. :)
"If parts are sitting, it totally negates the speed of the machine." Only if the machine is not running when the parts are sitting. If the machine is running to capacity, you will get the value from the speed. Still, a poor programmer or process engineer will negate the speed sometimes. :)
if you are looking to grow and or go 5 axis, you would need to go with a Haas. You cant beet the price of adding 5 axis on a Haas and if you are gonna grow almost anyone off the street has ran a Haas
I’ll say one thing. You can buy a Tormach in less than 20 minutes. Trying to get a Haas is like buying a house with months of waiting and no response for questions.
If the part is small and aluminum go with the 770, it runs circles around the 1100 when it comes to 1/4” and smaller end mills.
I went through the used machine nightmare. If you’re starting a business you want something reliable and a backup.
2 Tormachs > 1 Haas
Whatever you can afford without making payments on a machine, if you're just starting out and you don't have paying work or selling products it would be irresponsible. If you can afford the better machine, go for it. The way most people choose to go with the Tormach is minus tool changer and enclosure because the accessories bring it more into TM territory price-wise.
??? A haas tm will cost $40k...A tormach will cost $15k.
@@motoflyte last time I priced one out with toolchanger and enclosure and all stuff it was more like $25k. I bought a PCNC 1100 for like $8k then added a stand and power drawbar a few years ago, built my own enclosure.
@@multiHappyHacker I was referring to the 440. I bought a new 440 basic machine then put it on a precision neavy duty roll around table I found on craigslist. I also made my own enclosure. In the end it cost me about $12k with all the tooling and workholding.
Let's say your target is 25K. The biggest dilemma I think is you can find really good condition mid-2000s Haas VF 1 or VF2 for the same price as a new Tormach say 1100M and if you go for the MX you could get a much better newer Haas. But size of the machine being an issue with a garage shop, trying to figure out how to shoehorn a VF2 in a 3 car garage is not easy. The other issue is eventually with growth you will always outgrow the Tormach and probably not outgrow the Haas. So why even go down the Tormach road when you know you will eventually hit that wall and have to retool.
This is the reason I havent bought a Tormach yet.
Honestly, I expected a boring video. But this talk was superb!
Excellent video. Thank you for posting.
Simple to be honest... its all about throughput... Do you need 5 parts out the door every week, or 50 parts every day?
Best advice for a hobbyist and potential small business getting started. “Buy something that doesn’t put you in debt.”
My path, made diy lowrider 3 cnc to cut my boat parts, learned alot. Been asked to cut Doors or parts (wood) but currently its packed. Should set it up for winter again. Anyway, been looking to get minilathe and smaller sieg manual mill. Convert the sieg to cnc. Why? I dont have the Cash to buy even cheapest tormach. Also i want to get my tools to earn money for me. Decade or so, been just buying tools to get things done myself. Its time to put them also to earn money. I will eventually get big and rugged enough cnc router table and tormach, but before that theres plenty of stuff to do as one of parts for people. Goal is to get sale, quality better than lasercutted part. Theres plenty of sales to get from one offs or small series of parts. Just cant make day Job from those sales. But more machine time till enough cash is good start towards goal rather than aiming to get debt and no customerbase. Everyones route is different and i see this as zero risk path, i need the machines anyway for my hobbys. Could also lead to future Job.
Very good business advice
Great video, no fluff and to the point!
Thanks!
Job shop in business since 1989 here. Loans are not that big of a deal. I’d rather keep cash in the bank and make a note payment than blow your load and not have cash on hand. You’ll need that cash in the bank during the slow times.
Good opportunity to make a distinction between going into debt and getting a loan. Having enough cash in the bank to cover a loan does not lead to a negative net worth. Getting a loan because you don't have the cash is debt. I'll take a 12 month 0% Haas loan all day long and sit on cash. - JP
Ive built cnc's,plasma tables etc... looking to buy a ready to go 1100, but honestly nervous about bring in the biz. Not sure an intermiate step i can make before dropping 30k
Haas has really good service
What do you suggest a brand new HAAS or a good condition used Mori Seiki?
Thx for sharing, very interesting!
How do you feel about the bantam tools mill?
Never heard of it.
you mean to tell me the vf2ss i bought with no experience was a bad idea? oh well lol
Great video, wrestling with this decision myself.
Thanks Jay, great video
Hey JP. Thanks for the video. I'm trying to decide between the MiniMill and the TM-1P. I have way more flexibility with the TM, I'm just worried about the accuracy.
At work we've held tenths with our mini's no problem. Since you've run both. Have you noticed an accuracy difference between the TM and MM? Thanks!
It depends on the distance between features. If they're a few inches apart, both machines should be similar. With a longer ballscrew you'll naturally have more thermal growth. The TM requires manual greasing so if you stay on top of that, accuracy should stay consistent.
@@PiersonWorkholding You are the man!! Thanks for the reply!
i wish i had $40,000-50,000 sitting around so i didn't have to go into debt.
but you know if i took the time to save up that much its possible i could make 10x that with the machine in the same time it took to save for it.
probably take me 10 years to save that much.
Thank you for the insight. Take care.
Hardinge has the best value machine by far... That being said I built my business with 2-TM mills I still own. But Id never buy a VF series because of the way they nickel and dime on the options. Hardinge V-1000 is the best value and Id put mine against a Haas any day.
Pretty sure this was only about Tormach vs Haas's. Do you work for Hardinge?
Just watched a video about your mill.
Very nice machine.
What made you decide to go with the Hardinge over other brands ?
I mainly ask as i don,t know much of the V-1000 until you mentioned it.
@@weldmachineI'm glad you asked.... I was after a budget 20x40 machine and stumbled across it at a Gosiger open house. I had to have the 24" y for a customer. It is the heaviest 4020 cframe mill on the market and has heavy heavy ball screws and trucks. I also do die work so the 12k air over oil spindle was kinda a must have for finishing. But what really put the icing on the cake was the options... chip conveyor, side arm, hsm, ethernet, list goes on and on all standard. None of this nickel and dime stuff. And the spindle is true hp not haas power. And big plus capable. When I bought mine with a 4th rotary and tsc it was 2 tenths under 6 digits. Great value. Also, not to take away from this video I use the larger quick change Pierson plate and love it.
@@CNC_Soup No. And your right about the video.
@@Renegade48445
Yes.
Dollar value is a big point that most of us Need to think about.
I Love Mazak machines.
But i would not buy a brand new one mostly for the same reasons.
$$$$$$
If you Need a machine like a Mazak Why Not.
Otherwise it,s a fair way up the list as Buy Now option ??
Unfortunately ????
We need to live in the real world.
Where our $ needs to stretch as fair as it can.
From what you write seems you were able to resolve this annoying problem, lol.
I have not looked as yet but do you post anything on TH-cam with this machine. ( my next thing to. is have a look. )
Thanks for your reply.
Hopefully you do post something would be good to see your mill in action.
Peter.
I want to get into knifemaking, which requires precision machining. So what would be a good CNC for that?
Knife making is not precision machining. I know because I do high precision machining at work using a haas with a magnifiying camera to set offsets and to check dimensions after completion. Also, knifemaking is a hobby. You are never going to make a large income from knifemaking.....because everybody is doing it and because the market to sell knives is just too small. I own a tormach. It will cut 4140 just fine. It's not as fast or as strong as a haas, but a haas will cost you 4 times as much as a tormach. So, buy a tormach to do your hobby craft. If somehow you are successful..Then buy a haas. But do't go into debt $75k just for a hobby that will likely never pay well.
@@motoflyte do u like the tormach 1100mx? Do u think it's good enough for small aluminum 7000 and 6000 series parts?
THANKS FOR THE ADVICE!!! VERY HELPFUL!!!
If you have the work and income then dive in and use debt to leverage your productivity. I ran on cash bought machines for years. Never wanted debt. Once I changed my thinking and bought new machines with big payments my company grew so fast. I doubled in the first year I got the new machines. No down time from break downs. Faster machines. Better controls. Big machines with lots of parts packed on running into the night, every night. That was an extra 9 hours every night just from one machine. Now most of these machines have paid themselves off and are our assets.
Great vid some excellent tips there, I'm doing the maths on a Doosan lynx2100LSYA and you have given some great bits of advice to reflect on .
cheers
Charlie
Good choice , Doosan machines are a step up in rigidity and precision From same size Haas.
Problem with some companies is that the faster the better. Don't push the machine beyond its limits. Then you're taking maintenance and downtime costs
Yes! We rank Speed as #4 behind Safety, Quality and Simplicity. Lots of things are more important than speed.
This would be a good question fo nycnc
MasterMoparMan he’s sponsored by tormach - which is why most of his videos are made on their machines. It gives a pretty cool demonstration of what you can do with them.
But it’s also why he won’t ever compare them to other machines.
@Pierson Workholding Any thoughts on VM vs VF. I know the VM(s) have finer pitch ball screws but are they really any more accurate ?
Possibly! There was a NOTICIBLE difference in accuracy between our Super MiniMill and our other medium pitch ballscrew machines. It comes down to a lower resolution per step of the servo.
Man, great videos.
What about DMG MORI do ya use those? I work with few new dmg mori lathes and I'm very displeased that they don't hold the tolerances well from part to part
I don't believe DMG Mori is a good value. You're paying for lots of bells and whistles and the name. I purchase based on value to maximize company profits... THIS company's profits, not the machine tool builder.
How can one find work for the machine once they buy it ?
We are looking for a machine to produce prototype, custom parts and small series of manufacturing parts internally in our company. We produce in POM, ALU and Stainless Steel primarily,
I don't really care about speed of milling - it is the design to prototype to test, to rework to finished product that is the business killer for us when using sub suppliers.
Is there anything that the TM series from Haas cannot do properly if I don't care whether the part takes 20 minutes or 4 hours?
If you don't care about speed, the TM series is perfect. Better accuracy than a Tormach and just as capable as a MM or VF but slower. - JP
@@PiersonWorkholding Thanks - I was worried about stainless steel and especially fine details in stainless, but I didn't quite see why is could not be used.
Always good information!!!!!
It seems of youre getting started a great first mill is a fadal or 2.
lol I have to count my VFs too their so many. lol kidding great video thanks for the info!
Neither for a small shops first mill. A nice used Bridgeport Knee Mill with a Centroid CNC upgrade can be had for under $8k. If you already have customers and contracts lined up to churn out high production widgets, then ok get a Haas. A used Haas TM-1 is also a good option for a first cnc mill. Otherwise, why spend $20, $50, or $100k on your first mill?? As for Tormach, don't waste your time and money on an under weighted, crappy tolerance toy!
Or you could try the samurai 120
You will never be able to do any volume work witha bridgeport cnc upgraded mill. And it will never be accurate enough. I know, I've used all three ....tormach, cnc upgrade, and haas
Thank you enjoyed your video
even 12,000 rpm doesnt cut it in aluminum, customers are buyung 24,000 for aluminum , with todays tooling any thing less than 12-15 hp spindle is trouble, my first cnc was an okada 500 that had trouble with any tap larger than 3/8, spindle hp and rpm is more important than rapids
One might think Haas and Tormach were the only vmc manufacturers in the whole usa
Tormach is primarily an overseas manufacturer. Haas is almost exclusively made in the USA.
DMG MORI is very nice but most start up companies can't come close to buying them that's why Haas and Tormach has been the topic in most areas because it's not ment to compare to a Mori or a Makino they are ment to get you started cheap or shoot your shot and fail cheaper.
TeslaAtoms Hurco CNC
Raymond Rafalski makino is a superior machine but DMG is not. Absolutely not worth the money! Haas on the other hand is not as good as a makino or a Kitamura or a matsuura, but Haas is worth the money!
@@3JS2001. That's a preference I believe. My DMG Moris never disappointed me. Also I believe it depends on what type of work your doing. If all you need is a drill press then a makino is a waist of money even more so than a tormach.
love that intro very funny hahahaha
You must mean Haas has the best value for vertical mills. But you have Doosan Lathes right? How or why did you decide to purchase Doosan Lathes?
The question was specifically Tormach vs Haas, but Doosan lathes are a great value too. They're 5%-10% more expensive, but come with more features and are very well built in my opinion.
Pierson Workholding doosan lathe use to be superior, and I owned a few. However, the new Haas st lathe are a lot better specially with the BMT turrets. Also, with the added value in service and support, the Haas is the better machine
Only Hurco for my needs.
I feel your pain on the monthly payment. 796.22 each month here. Probably the best advice that I ignored when starting out was don't go into debt. Debt just increases the distance before you are in the black. I will say this though when it comes to buying a machine. Go with a machine that you can accurately make parts on right out of the box. I don't own a HAAS nor a Tormach so I have no real direct experience with either but one common theme I have seen on Tormach mills is be prepared to make a lot of 'adjustments' just to be able to cut a semi accurate cut.
"Debt just increases the distance before you are in the black." That is a great line! Thanks for watching - JP
Like with any other investment in your business it is about why you go into debt, and I think that JP is wrong in that advise. Debt is a business cost that you undertake to achieve something in your business and if those 800$ you have in financing makes you an average of more than 800$/month then it improves your bottom line. The problem with debt is that it is your wings if you have an upswing in business, and if your business goes the opposite way then it is the anchor around your neck.
It makes your business more risky but it also gears your business for growth.
Dang the starting price for a TM-1 is now $37,995...3 years later...+$8k
VALUE.
That is the only term that is important when choosing a CNC machine. Value is a balance of many factors: Affordability, Capability, Suitability for the current needs, Capacity to absorb future growth, etc. A machine that you cannot afford has no value. A machine that cannot satisfy current needs has little value. A machine that has too much capability is not a good value. A machine that devastates you financially if you have a couple of slow months is a terrible value.
Your own value of time is critical. A slow machine may sound like a reasonable compromise until you factor in your own time and add that to the cost of the machine.
Remember this: THE COST OF THE MACHINE IS NOT WHAT YOU PAID FOR IT BUT RATHER HOW MUCH IS COSTS OVER ITS LIFETIME. Slow machines cost time. Over the life of the machine it can cost an enormous amount of time. Fast machines cost money. If you don't have the work, speed is just wasted money.
So much to consider.
AKA ROI - JP
If I have the choice I would go for DMG Mori !!!
That's basically the worst choice for a first machine.
Dmg is a far better machine then haas or tormach.
They aren't compatible though. The price is magnatudes different. Haas also demands to install the unit. The Haas will not fit in the same space. The Haas is a better machine by ever indicator, but this isn't apples to apples.
I’m sorry Jake and anyone else with a brain. If, if I say, you 1: have the money and 2: have the space that’s about as simple a decision as there is. Buy the Tormach. LOL just kidding. There’s nothing wrong with a Tormach but if I have the above 2options I will always go with a pro milling system like Haas. I am not ripping on Tormach at all, many wonderful things have been built on a Tormach and many more will be built with Tormach. There are just somethings you can only get with that big step up.
Remember what I was told years ago. When you hurry up to slow down you loose.
The guy asking that question is new to machining, and the differences of the machines he asks about tells me he does not know what kind of work he will be doing and has no business opening a machine shop. Either that,---or the question is made up. :)
A used Haas is ook for starting a business, but I wouldn't grow a business with a Haas. You can buy a 20 year old machine that's superior to a haas is just about every way and cheaper. Used Haas' cost too much. Yes I know the video is Haas vs Tormach, but there are better machines for cheaper out there then those two.
Care to give some examples? Just curious
@@thorwaldjohanson2526 Last month I purchased a 2007 Hardinge XR1000 with 4th axis mill for $10,000. It needs a spindle. Which will be done by the end of this month. It's a better machine in every aspect to a Haas and cheaper (even with the spindle repair) than a Haas VF3 of the same vintage.
Can I buy your old Haas mini
Email me an offer I can't refuse. - JP
Should have named this video TM vs Minimill.
Why do you need to start your own business now? Why not save some more money to start it right and not play with toys?
I personally dont like the Tormach, in my eyes it is more a manual mill, Chinese produced, boxways, weak spindle, weird tool interface, steppers (hello are we building a 3D Printer or a CNC?).
I have build my own small "VMC" 7hp, 30 taper, 12k rpm, 600ipm cutting, 1200ipm rapid, 10x20 Table and got tooled up for around 13k.
Im 21 years old, if I can do this, you can at least as good as me, the Internet taught me almost all the knowledge I needed.
Where teh video?
@@misiukowalski5653 Haha... right? Where's the video. We'd love to see it.
What To Buy ????
Many Questions to ask.
Buy what you need.
Not what you want.
Is a great place to start.
Everyone sees the After machines ?
The Mills, Lathes etc.
They don,t see where they started.
EGO is another one ????
Buying to show what i have.
Again Not what i need ?
If you have enough money to start a full blown machine shop.
Then Don,t start a machine shop ?
There are a lot of better businesses to start.
If you start small and grow to be a full blown machine shop.
So be it.
Keep this thinking in mind when starting out.
Do what you can do, with what you have first.
Then grow as you can.
Don,t look to much at what others are doing or buying.
This adds NO value to how you grow your business.
Keep your head down.
And just work.
Is your main focus.
Well said!
People watch TH-cam too much.. tarmac don't have the horse power. The haas is more expensive obviously but its the better machine. Unless you want to plug a tormac into a regular outlet and machine in your garage.
Matsuura
If you DON'T need precision, buy a tormach.
If you DON'T need accuracy, buy a tormach
if you want a CHINA made cnc, buy a tormach.
You truly get what you pay for.
Do your research on their customer service before buying a tormach.
Good luck if you buy a tormach, your going to need it.
Haas no question.
That's 30 haaspower, not horsepower lol 😆😉
The company I work for bought a tarmac 1100pc. Terrible machine. Tolerance are off. No cutting power. Unreliable. No on site repair. Not for high probuction. Tools pull out all the time. U get what you pay for. Buy cheap get cheap.
There's NO comparison to Haas
No BRANIER HAAS
UNLESS YOU WANT A CHINA QUALITY
MACHINE AND SERVICE
$52,000 dollars was way too much for a TM.
It's not about price, it's about ROI. Our TM made over $2,000,000 in its lifetime so the price is virtually irrelevant.
Hass hands down end of conversation.
That's too simplistic of an answer and doesn't take into account cost, space, power, need, tooling, business strategy, purpose or learning curves.
THERE IS NO COMPARISON FOR SURE TORMACH IS A TOY COMPARED TO A HAAS TORMACH IS FOR BEGINNERS HAAS IS FOR SERIOUS MACHINIST
Is this even a video? Haas all day.
you get a thumbs down for saying tormach is good
Neither? 😂 Brother? Doosan? Haas controller just feels like a lack of innovation and tormach feels too cheap.
Wait...lack of controller innovation and you mentioned Brother and Doosan? Doosan has the same Fanuc controller from 1986 and we just picked up a new Brother M140X2 last year that has the exact same controller as our TC-32BN QT which is 16 years old.
Also, the next gen control on Haas allows you to input an M code in the program that pulls up a media file (image, video, etc), has remote status alerts and WIFI networking. How is that not innovative compared to the brands you mentioned?
Tormach is a toy HAAS is a machine
More like Tormach is a hammer, Haas is a nail gun. They're both legit machines but with very different abilities.
Some good unrelated info, but pretty worthless considering the title of the video. i would have just titled it as general tips when buying a machine or something else.
We cut at 100 IPM
Titan: hold my bear
Gross. Low end equipment buy an Okuma
What part of "Tormach vs Haas" did you not understand?
Oh eww. My butler informs me that these are the machines of the poor.
✅ Tired of making 1 part at a time? 👉 bit.ly/3OyL0Ge