When the Haas break down, you will most likely need a Haas technician to come over and fix it, (with a charge). When the Tormach breaks down, no matter what the problem is, you can fix it yourself with some help over the phone. My Tormach 1100 I have had since 2007, has over a million dollars worth of work though it, and less than a month total down time over 15 years of production at a cost of under $1,000 for parts. I am not moving mountains with it,---but I have never seen a production machine with that track record in my 40 years in manufacturing.
To be fair if you were in CNC manufacturing you should know better than to compare years of production. It's hours, and material. A new HAAS could have millions worth through it in the first couple months in a production environment and not even break a sweat.
I own several Haas machines for both my Business and home. I started with the toolroom series in 2003, still have my TL-1. They are very reliable machines. I now have two VM-2 with 4 and 5 axis. I also have a ST15y. These machines are very accurate, we often hold tolerances less than .001". I now have a TM-1p for home. I have this because I only have single phase available. I would highly recommend Haas. John nice video!
I'm curious about how you got your tl1 to remain reliable. The only one I was in charge of over my career had to be constantly serviced to even keep it running, let around hold sub thousandth tolerancing.
We are still running it now, never a problem. We constantly run plus or minus .0003" all day. Not sure why you are having trouble, this has been a very reliable machine.
@davidlewis7382 well the one we had at that company was Fd. Constantly needed parts replaced. Right before I left we had to have a service visit to replace the x-axis ball screws. Lube lines broke once a year. Spindle was about to blow. We couldn't even get rid of it because haas didn't want it and it cost more money to move it than we would have got for scrap. I'd never buy a haas lathe again. Mori or okuma all day.
@@davidlewis7382you want more than luck as a cnc owner. You want a guarantee.. and you want it to last more than a year (haas warranty period). A haas is a 5 year machine. The entire industry knows it. They make more money off the service cost than they do the sale of the machine.
You chose very well. Teeny tiny little endmills and stepper motors are not a good thing no matter how fast you can spin them. I would rather have a Mini mill with a base 6000rpm spindle and use speeder heads than a high rpm spindle that ahs stepper motors for axial drives.
Not all RPCs (rotary phase converters) are created equal. The American Rotary ADX series, and higher end offerings from other vendors, include current/power factor correction that is at least as good if not better than utility 3-phase. But you get what you pay for. As always. This was a really informative video. Well done.
I would never go with a rotary. I ended up with a Phase Perfect digital converter and am very glad I spent the money to get true clean perfect 3 phase power that runs an ST20 lathe and VF2 all day every day with perfect power that runs 240 volt exactly every day all day. CNC manufacturers actually have no question about your warranty with a digital either.
I’m in the process of getting a super mini I was wondering if you had anything against these I didn’t hear you mention them but it comes with 10k spindle ridged tapping high speed milling ( and claims 15hp 🤥)and a tool changer and it also fits in my residential garage although I will be running it off of a phase converter
I only mentioned the TM-0 because that's the closest machine to a Tormach. A super mini mill is better all around than a TM-0. I don't have any firsthand experience, but I wouldn't have any qualms about getting one if I had the space, need, and budget. For me, the OM-2A is perfect. For most people, it's way too small.
i love haas, i use them every day. but with the tm-0 adding the options to make it worth a damn, with tool changer, (so the tm 0p,) the rigid tapping (sold seperate) etc. pushes the price back up into the 45k price range. i would really like to see those options in a new haas at sub 35k. in my opinion if you have the money and space for a haas get it. but lower budget and need it to come in pieces (as i do) go with tormach.
You must have really loaded up on the options. If I were to go this route, I'd want the 10K spindle and HSM. With those options added, the TM-0P comes out to $38K. Still not cheap. But a Tormach 1100MX with a tool changer is about $30K. True, you can do rigid tapping with the Tormach, but I consider that a nice to have rather than a requirement.
I think the difference is, I grabbed the probe option and the rigid tapping. if i were getting a new haas that is what i would do. I already ordered the tormach however, for one major reason. space. i can't fit (even though i would love one) a haas through the man door to my "shed." otherwise I would have done the exact same thing that you did with the used machine route. smart move brother!😀
That would do it. I have a Haimer on my Haas OM-2A, which is just fine for what I do. Sure, it would be nice to have a probe. But I can't really justify the cost. As to the size, yea, the TM-0 would be an issue. It might be possible to fit through double doors (which is what I have). My OM-2A definitely fit, but it's smaller.
In India Haas has a promo for many models for example VF2 with 10k spindle , auto doors and many more features for just 35k USD. Some 45% discount on the full price!
Great John, you took the words right out of my mouth. I didnt want a Haas, infact i slated them. I was looking at Bridgeport and XYZ machins, both mini mills by other manufacturers. Its the locked controls and total inflexibility of haas that made me steer away from them. I got the chance of a Haas Mini Mill ok its a 2002 but its only done 5000 Hrs and about 7000 tool changes in its life. And came with Rigid tapping. I could not be happier and definately fell in love with it. I did look at Importing a Tormach 770 into the UK with a tool changer which would have come in on the same budget. It wasnt cheap but wasnt silly either, its in mint condition and definately put a smile on my face. watch yourselves with Used machine dealers, there are some real odd bods out there some have less scruples than a seconhand car dealer or a realestate agent. Eventually you find the company you like to work with and everything just happens. First experince of Haas, ive registered the machine and for some bizzare reason had to fill out an import/export declaration ? I guess its for aquireing US parts in the UK, i would hope my HFO dealt with that but hey ho. Ive been asked to do stranger things. Like visa applications in Baku which they woulod accept phot coppies provided you payed the token $100. Useful for repeat trips. Anywys, great advice and many thanks for some great content.
Great info. When I saw the published pricing on the TM-0, my instant thought was its a game changer. No question the TM-0 is going to eat Tormach’s lunch at the high end.
I just heard of the tp-0p and at only 28k its so cheap. although its pretty bare bone and doesn't even come with a chip conveyor.... I still might buy it as my next machine tho
@@Foomanlol That is because it does not need one, (a chip conveyor). I have 3 years of aluminum chips in the stand right now, and I live off the machine.
I have heard good things about the Syil mills, especially the newer ones. I didn't cover those in this video because I don't have enough knowledge about them.
The Memory can easily be upgraded. Even easier IF you know how. But most guys who run older machines with small memories usually drip feed them so it's not a drama. It's just a case of learning how the machine likes to run. A Fadal is a Good example.
A Robodrill is my dream machine. I'm seeing used ones selling for $15K, but a newer one will still be quite costly. At the moment, I don't have the space. Otherwise, I'd definitely put a Robodrill at the top of my list.
I'm in the UK and once you add the cost of shipping for MX with an ATC the Haas MM was cheaper new, plus we do have Haas UK for sales and support. I got the MM with only the upgrade to the 6K spindle and flood coolant. All the options are there for you to try out for 200hrs, (you can turn them on/off, so only 200hrs of use, so will last a long time if used right) As for HSM, I've used the try out, but found unless im doing very fast feed rates on fully 3D parts, it does not make any difference, but I do use smoothing in Fusion360 in the CAM, this does a lot of what HSM does. (HSM also looks ahead in the code is its a little better, (but I found only with fully 3D). You can add 90% of the options via code, so later on if you find you need them and you can add them on, but I'd not get them as standard and save the money for tooling.
So, you had a choice of a 10yr old Haas or an (almost)new Tormach. You never owned a Tormach but did buy the old Haas and yet you feel confident providing advice regarding the two options. I hope Haas is thankful for your commercial as you will need it when you require there support.
I agree. If you can swing the TM-0P, you won't be disappointed. The other thing is to think about spindle speed and how high you're comfortable buying. Pretty much all of the other options you can add later.
If you want used, check out Fadal EMCs or VMC15. They have about the same footprint as a TM-0, hold more tools, have a faster spindle, faster feedrates and rapids, more power, can be run on single phase, part supplies are plentiful and service manuals are free and generally they are very easy to repair if something goes wrong. And you can get them much cheaper than a used Haas or Tormach.
Great video John! I'm ready to buy a VMC and I'm currently being tormented by indecision. I'm 95% convinced that I'm passing on Tormach. I'm looking at both new and used Hass TM-0P, TM-1P and Mini mills. The Haas pricing system sucks! The initial price looks like you're getting a great deal, but after a bunch of research you learn that the Auger is really needed because it's near impossible to clean the chips out without it, HSM and Rigid tapping option prices are ludicrous, and a Haas technician needed to set up the new machine is over $,1500. So now I'm leaning towards a used Haas. You made me realize I have to pay attention to the options that were purchased and are available on the used machines I look at. Your description of the controller versions was very helpful in clearing up the support question. Is yours running Coldfire1 or Coldfire2?
I don't have experience with larger machines, or serious milling, to be able to offer advise. My jobs are all small, and so therefore I don't have to empty the chips that often. As to which controller, I don't know if it's a Coldfire 1 or 2. It's a 2009, which has the CHC (Classic Haas Controller) software that is one version before the NGC software that is current. They had several other versions that are even earlier.
@@JohnSL Thanks for the reply. I'll learn a little more about CHC. I'm trying to stay with a Haas that is 2008 or newer. Some folks on Practical Machinist say not to worry about getting an older (pre-2007) Haas which is no longer supported, because there are plenty of parts to be found on eBay and with repair shops. That feels like a bad idea. So, I'll try and stick with 2008 and newer. Thanks again!
My vote is the largest Brother Speedio "S" series you can squeeze into your space (the "W" if you can fit it.) There's almost no difference in price between the S300/500/and 700. They're basically the same machine with different tables and sheet metal. Use a phase converter, then buck down to 215 volts, or whatever your Brother rep recommends. It's a production-focused 30-taper that's one of the fastest in the world. Basically, it's the baddest machine you can get on residential service, and it will run circles around quite a few 40-tapers. Way more energy efficient and with 200-amp 220/240 service? You might be able to run two of them. You won't really outgrow the Speedio, you just automate it.
I had an instructor in college who worked for a big die shop, and I asked him why they don't use Haas, (that I have used a lot in various smaller shops). His reply: "Because we want to make money." :)
Lots of money has been made with Haas machines. Are they going to be as good as a Japanese mill/turn machine that weighs 20,000 pounds and costs $500K? Of course not. This video has done a pretty darned good job of trying to make an apples-to-apples comparison. I am one of those people who is about to spend a bunch of money on either a used Haas or new Tormach. There are very good arguments for both. I wonder if this gentleman will still love his Haas if he ever ends up with a $6K repair bill. That's one of my hesitations. I love the DIY-repair aspect of the Tormach.
Loved the video! When I watch these type of videos, I’m left wondering… if I put one in my garage how mad will the wife be when the electric bill comes? How much can I expect my bill to increase? Thank you very much
I don't think it's that much. The maximum is 16 amps at 220V. However, most of the time it uses far less power than that. It uses the full power only when ramping the spindle speed up to 30K RPM, as an example. That's when it shows 100% of spindle load. Most of the time it's way below 10%.
damn you got your machine for a good deal! I'm have about 20k burning a hole in my pocket and I cannot find a good used haas anywhere around me so now im considering buying a new on from haas....
Yeah you think you buying a new one from haas,.... I got a quote for dm and the new office mill called cm and each one was $155k . yes, the cadcam program one cnc was 20k , 5th axis 28k , ect,.. tax 14k
@@desyquintero8451 IF i was looking to buy a New CNC Mill or Lathe. I would Definitely look at a Doosan. Definitely a better machine than any HAAS could ever be.
@@GeneralChangFromDanang Compare Performance as much as Prices. A Doosan is a much better machine than a HAAS will ever be. It does come down to what amount of money you have to spend compared to what you need the machine to do. IF you're cutting Aluminium or similar soft materials all day. Then a HAAS will be more than capable. Doosan is a serious machine for serious work. But it will also be more expensive than a lesser machine. Same goes for anything in this life. Want More. Pay More.
Thread mills will work on any machine. They take a little more effort to program. On the other hand, if a thread mill breaks, you don't scrap the part.
I work on Haas VF4 pallet changer and a bunch of VF2s and a single VF1. The machine is great. The console and all the added Haas stuff is trash. I spend more time asking the machine for permission to do things then I do setting it up. Not to mention if you dont baby them like crazy they rust and decay faaaaast. Now I can look past all that if they didn't send kill codes to machines when you get a 3rd party to repair your machine during warranty (cuz its cheaper) and warranty covers almost nothing. Haas is doing the whole John Deere model of business. Cooperate America loves them cuz all the safety features and how little knowledge you need your operators at to run them. So I see their place in the Cnc world and will not argue that. That being said Tormach MX series for the garage shop guy is the way to go, or Syil. Hurco and others aren't really worth your time unless you get a really decked out one with Z feed used, but those still cost over 10k. My rule is never buy a used Cnc Mill, as if they run just 1 wrong material with out filters or support, the machine is doomed. Lathes are perfectly fine to buy used, as they genuinely last forever and its so easy to retrofit any kind of repair.
True what you write about CNC Lathes. The main thing that kills a Good Lathe is a crash. Otherwise they pretty much never break. Mills ???? Especially HAAS Mills. Eat Spindles. No wonder the HFO's have changeovers ready to go. They remind me of Timing Belts on a cars. Once they get to a certain run time 🙄
anyone have this for eu market brands ,,cause we dont have tormach & hass is 40-50% over us prices ,so even great machine looad shops have different brands ,like okuma or takumi ,hyundai,huron,dmg etc etc
@@MrCcfly How small of a machine are you looking at buying. Doosan make a small CNC Lathe called LEO. Not sure about Mill's But they also make real machines not toys. Their are many other brands available. Just depends on what country you are living in ?
The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten. Benjamin Franklin I prefer to think of the sweetness of quality..., as referenced by your smiles when you talk about rigid tapping and a dependable tool changer.
"Buy once, cry once." I totally agree. I definitely pushed past what I wanted to pay, which made me question my choice. But then I asked myself how I would feel if I didn't buy the Haas, and my reaction told me what I needed to know. It was so the right choice.
Anything but a Toymach! Been there. Done that. The greatest feature on a Toymach is their marketing. Too much flex in the ways. Too weak of a casting (especially for their new BT30 machine) Having a 110ipm feedrate is meaningless when you can't actually push a tool that fast because of the deflection in the R8 spindle they call TTS.
You were not smart enough to buy a larger machine for the work you do. I have been living off my 1100 since 2007, (fine me a good running 15 year old machine that has been used for 15 years,--anywhere.), but the machine speed is not too important for what I do, and I don't use indexable cutters of cutters over ..375" in diameter. I have over a million dollars worth of work through mine. It broke down 3 times over 15 years, (new computer for it this week), and I have been able to fix it myself with some phone service from Tormach, and have less than $1,000 of parts in it with less than a month total down time---in 15 years. I have been around machine shops long enough to know---that is a damn good record. Buy the right machine for the job next time.
@@EarthSurferUSA You really like to hear yourself talk don't you? As I said, the best thing about Tormach is their marketing. They market individual features of their mills as though all those features can be implemented all at the same time. They can't! I took them at there word, bought the 1100 Series-3 PCNC machine with all the fixin's, set it up as per their instructions, had it inspected by a machinist with over 30 years experience, and started prototyping parts. When problems started showing up, like massive leaks, extensive backlash in the 4th axis, failed circuitry, rounding errors on sloped tool paths in PathPilot, and on and on, I was repeatedly told "Oh, well I guess it can't do that under those circumstances. I don't know what to tell you. Have you looked on TH-cam for any ideas." (No exaggeration.) You won't hear me complaining about a Taig mill or a Grizzly 0704 or any other hobby level machine, because they are honest in their marketing about their machines' capabilities. When I was researching the Tormach, I told them everything I needed. What material and tools I'd be using. The kinds of tool paths I'd need to create, etc. I really wanted the Tormach to be the solution I needed. It wasn't. I called out the company for what I considered to be deceptive practices. They never even denied it. I was told "You know that's how business works." That's a quote! I'm glad you've sold over a million dollars in parts over the last 15 years with your machine. (That's about $67,000 a year. What's you profit margin? 40%? After taxes, you aren't exactly getting rich, now are ya? Especially, when you consider all that time you had to spend on that John Saunders trick with the fish-scale and string adjusting your gibs. th-cam.com/video/z6RzDphty_o/w-d-xo.html ) It's too bad you're so arrogant that you assume your experience is the same for everyone else - and can't help yourself from acting others, like some troll-aholic, bottom-feeder that has to insult someone for having a different opinion. Whatever simple-ass, square-box, hobby-level, piece-of-shit part you make, might come off a simple-ass, square-box, hobby-level, piece-of-shit Toymach mill just fine. But my guess is you wish you had a real machine in your garage, instead of that half-baked, deep-dish, router table you constantly need to defend, by insulting people on TH-cam for their opinions. So, fuck you very much for your feedback. And I hope you and your little boy-toy are very happy together. Remember to wipe it off each time you use it. We wouldn't want you to get an infection now would we?
I bought my TM3P brand new and I've been quite happy overall. There have been some issues which I'm not happy about but the HFO for Haas has really been the shining star. If there's been any issue the HFO has no issues stopping by and helping free under warranty. I bought my machine fully loaded and I got it for about $65k. That's 4th axis, probing, wips, 20 pocket tool changer 10k spindle. That's also with a good discount from Haas. But the reason I went with this machine was because it was the biggest, highest horsepower, most travel my budget, and garage could fit. I did that because I could see myself outgrowing something smaller or compromising on something. And a year later I'm starting to outgrow the TM3P. So for the money, the TM3P will get me to the next stepping stone. If you don't know what your target market or parts will be it gives a lot of room to grow. Haas also has a good financing program for startups which can help get you into a new machine. And once again, it helps build your business to get to the next level of machine when you know your needs better.
Nice machine for being in your garage! I didn't mention HFOs in my video, but my local HFO has been great. Because of the work I do, the OM-2A is the idea machine for me. Fortunately, I don't see outgrowing it (unless I wanted to make something different).
@@JohnSL Fortunately, or unfortunately that you don't see growing your business? Outgrowing a machine is a good thing when you did not see it coming. :)
@@EarthSurferUSA Ah, but this is a hobby for me and I don’t want it to become a successful business. I have a well paying day job that I love. Plus, all the things I’m interested in working on seem to be small.
Nothing has changed when buying any product ? You only get, what you pay for. IF you buy a Hobby Machine don't expect it to be an Industrial Machine. EVERY Machine has it's limitations. You just Need to understand what they are. Don't lie to yourself and expect more than what you get.
Haas TM series looks nice (but not as rigid as a "real" VF), but they require 260cm height. I have 240cm so I went with a Syil X7 (the crate is in the boat currently), also seems more rigid than the TM.
Well, it depends on your budget and needs. As a hobby machine, a Tormach 770M is not a bad machine that has a lot of community support. But for professional use, definitely Haas.
lol tormach is junk for tight tolerances and even hass has it limits for tight tolerance . you can never really push any tormach machine like you can with Hass. Tormach is 100% designed for hobbyist. Hass is both hobbyist and industrial.
For a hobbyist, it not be a bad choice if you're not going all out with options and you're not going to use it a lot. PathPilot is definitely more approachable, and there is a lot of information out there. The problem with the hobby market is there is really a huge gap between a turnkey Taig CNC and the next step up. But yea, a Haas is so much better.
Haas coolant pumps are larger than a tormach's spindle, no comparison but some tormach owners feel like they got to defend there poor choices in these "vs" videos LMAO
@@oldstf Yes the Tormach owners are Very Sensitive about their machines.😭 But some wake up and buy what they should have brought in the first place. Then they bang on about how Good that machine is 🙄 Not to put down every Tormach owner, as some only need a Router that spins at lower RPM.
For the same price of a brand new DIY Tormach. I can buy a used CNC mill or lathe, full tool changer, full cnc control, full encloser, and accurate. I wouldn't buy a HAAS either.
@@ghost101049 If you can afford it. Get a new Mini mill HAAS. Only reason I do not like HAAS is that they are expensive. Other Option for budget reasons. Get a small Used FADAL. There are plenty of Fadal Techs out there. Pay one to inspect the machine for you pre purchase. They can tell you how much needs to be repaired, replace, or not to buy that particular machine and find a more decent Fadal. Parts and Labor are cheap and easy to replace. Stay away from machines that needs Turcite rebuilt. Most use Fadals you buy you normally replace gibs and straps. Stay away from DIY Tormachs if possible. Good luck.
When the Haas break down, you will most likely need a Haas technician to come over and fix it, (with a charge).
When the Tormach breaks down, no matter what the problem is, you can fix it yourself with some help over the phone.
My Tormach 1100 I have had since 2007, has over a million dollars worth of work though it, and less than a month total down time over 15 years of production at a cost of under $1,000 for parts. I am not moving mountains with it,---but I have never seen a production machine with that track record in my 40 years in manufacturing.
To be fair if you were in CNC manufacturing you should know better than to compare years of production.
It's hours, and material. A new HAAS could have millions worth through it in the first couple months in a production environment and not even break a sweat.
I own several Haas machines for both my Business and home. I started with the toolroom series in 2003, still have my TL-1. They are very reliable machines. I now have two VM-2 with 4 and 5 axis. I also have a ST15y. These machines are very accurate, we often hold tolerances less than .001". I now have a TM-1p for home. I have this because I only have single phase available. I would highly recommend Haas. John nice video!
I'm curious about how you got your tl1 to remain reliable. The only one I was in charge of over my career had to be constantly serviced to even keep it running, let around hold sub thousandth tolerancing.
We are still running it now, never a problem. We constantly run plus or minus .0003" all day. Not sure why you are having trouble, this has been a very reliable machine.
@davidlewis7382 well the one we had at that company was Fd. Constantly needed parts replaced. Right before I left we had to have a service visit to replace the x-axis ball screws. Lube lines broke once a year. Spindle was about to blow. We couldn't even get rid of it because haas didn't want it and it cost more money to move it than we would have got for scrap. I'd never buy a haas lathe again. Mori or okuma all day.
oh well you had bad luck I guess.
@@davidlewis7382you want more than luck as a cnc owner. You want a guarantee.. and you want it to last more than a year (haas warranty period). A haas is a 5 year machine. The entire industry knows it. They make more money off the service cost than they do the sale of the machine.
You chose very well. Teeny tiny little endmills and stepper motors are not a good thing no matter how fast you can spin them. I would rather have a Mini mill with a base 6000rpm spindle and use speeder heads than a high rpm spindle that ahs stepper motors for axial drives.
Not all RPCs (rotary phase converters) are created equal. The American Rotary ADX series, and higher end offerings from other vendors, include current/power factor correction that is at least as good if not better than utility 3-phase. But you get what you pay for. As always. This was a really informative video. Well done.
Thanks. I don't have experience with rotary phase converters yet, but do have another project where I will be using one.
I would never go with a rotary. I ended up with a Phase Perfect digital converter and am very glad I spent the money to get true clean perfect 3 phase power that runs an ST20 lathe and VF2 all day every day with perfect power that runs 240 volt exactly every day all day. CNC manufacturers actually have no question about your warranty with a digital either.
I’m in the process of getting a super mini I was wondering if you had anything against these I didn’t hear you mention them but it comes with 10k spindle ridged tapping high speed milling ( and claims 15hp 🤥)and a tool changer and it also fits in my residential garage although I will be running it off of a phase converter
I only mentioned the TM-0 because that's the closest machine to a Tormach. A super mini mill is better all around than a TM-0. I don't have any firsthand experience, but I wouldn't have any qualms about getting one if I had the space, need, and budget. For me, the OM-2A is perfect. For most people, it's way too small.
@@JohnSL great thanks John
You don’t need a rotor phase- you can use a variable frequency drive- to create a third phase.
i love haas, i use them every day. but with the tm-0 adding the options to make it worth a damn, with tool changer, (so the tm 0p,) the rigid tapping (sold seperate) etc. pushes the price back up into the 45k price range. i would really like to see those options in a new haas at sub 35k. in my opinion if you have the money and space for a haas get it. but lower budget and need it to come in pieces (as i do) go with tormach.
You must have really loaded up on the options. If I were to go this route, I'd want the 10K spindle and HSM. With those options added, the TM-0P comes out to $38K. Still not cheap. But a Tormach 1100MX with a tool changer is about $30K. True, you can do rigid tapping with the Tormach, but I consider that a nice to have rather than a requirement.
I think the difference is, I grabbed the probe option and the rigid tapping. if i were getting a new haas that is what i would do. I already ordered the tormach however, for one major reason. space. i can't fit (even though i would love one) a haas through the man door to my "shed." otherwise I would have done the exact same thing that you did with the used machine route. smart move brother!😀
That would do it. I have a Haimer on my Haas OM-2A, which is just fine for what I do. Sure, it would be nice to have a probe. But I can't really justify the cost. As to the size, yea, the TM-0 would be an issue. It might be possible to fit through double doors (which is what I have). My OM-2A definitely fit, but it's smaller.
In India Haas has a promo for many models for example VF2 with 10k spindle , auto doors and many more features for just 35k USD. Some 45% discount on the full price!
ATC & 4th Axis makes the machine more "resalable", when you go broke !
Great John, you took the words right out of my mouth. I didnt want a Haas, infact i slated them. I was looking at Bridgeport and XYZ machins, both mini mills by other manufacturers. Its the locked controls and total inflexibility of haas that made me steer away from them. I got the chance of a Haas Mini Mill ok its a 2002 but its only done 5000 Hrs and about 7000 tool changes in its life. And came with Rigid tapping. I could not be happier and definately fell in love with it. I did look at Importing a Tormach 770 into the UK with a tool changer which would have come in on the same budget. It wasnt cheap but wasnt silly either, its in mint condition and definately put a smile on my face. watch yourselves with Used machine dealers, there are some real odd bods out there some have less scruples than a seconhand car dealer or a realestate agent. Eventually you find the company you like to work with and everything just happens. First experince of Haas, ive registered the machine and for some bizzare reason had to fill out an import/export declaration ? I guess its for aquireing US parts in the UK, i would hope my HFO dealt with that but hey ho. Ive been asked to do stranger things. Like visa applications in Baku which they woulod accept phot coppies provided you payed the token $100. Useful for repeat trips. Anywys, great advice and many thanks for some great content.
What do you use to run programs? Are you using USB, DNC, or something else? I know very little about the older Haas controllers.
Good to know. Thanks. What company did you use to find your minimill?
Great info. When I saw the published pricing on the TM-0, my instant thought was its a game changer. No question the TM-0 is going to eat Tormach’s lunch at the high end.
I just heard of the tp-0p and at only 28k its so cheap. although its pretty bare bone and doesn't even come with a chip conveyor.... I still might buy it as my next machine tho
@@HuskyMachining that's true but the Tormach doesn't even offer one afterall.
@@Foomanlol yeah, Im about to order a tp0p for my second spindle as its just what I need.
@@Foomanlol That is because it does not need one, (a chip conveyor). I have 3 years of aluminum chips in the stand right now, and I live off the machine.
You should look at Syil CNC machines.
I have heard good things about the Syil mills, especially the newer ones. I didn't cover those in this video because I don't have enough knowledge about them.
1MB of memory feels so insulting. No matter what year it is. Even a floppy disc offered more. No reason for a controller to have such limited memory.
The Memory can easily be upgraded.
Even easier IF you know how.
But most guys who run older machines with small memories usually drip feed them so it's not a drama.
It's just a case of learning how the machine likes to run.
A Fadal is a Good example.
The controller is from the 80s :)
It‘s 1GB not 1Mb
I feel like you're answer my question through video. Perfect video! Much appreciated!
Glad to hear it!
Actually, I would like to have a 15hp Robodrill, but I can't afford it. Super fast little machine that does not take a lot of space.
A Robodrill is my dream machine. I'm seeing used ones selling for $15K, but a newer one will still be quite costly. At the moment, I don't have the space. Otherwise, I'd definitely put a Robodrill at the top of my list.
I'm in the UK and once you add the cost of shipping for MX with an ATC the Haas MM was cheaper new, plus we do have Haas UK for sales and support.
I got the MM with only the upgrade to the 6K spindle and flood coolant.
All the options are there for you to try out for 200hrs, (you can turn them on/off, so only 200hrs of use, so will last a long time if used right)
As for HSM, I've used the try out, but found unless im doing very fast feed rates on fully 3D parts, it does not make any difference, but I do use smoothing in Fusion360 in the CAM, this does a lot of what HSM does. (HSM also looks ahead in the code is its a little better, (but I found only with fully 3D).
You can add 90% of the options via code, so later on if you find you need them and you can add them on, but I'd not get them as standard and save the money for tooling.
I've seen your posts about your experience. I bet you're very happy with the MM as well. Thanks for the info about HSM.
So, you had a choice of a 10yr old Haas or an (almost)new Tormach. You never owned a Tormach but did buy the old Haas and yet you feel confident providing advice regarding the two options. I hope Haas is thankful for your commercial as you will need it when you require there support.
Not to mention that Tormach had a price increase before the TM-0 was released. I am leaning towards the TM-0P. Thanks for the info.
I agree. If you can swing the TM-0P, you won't be disappointed. The other thing is to think about spindle speed and how high you're comfortable buying. Pretty much all of the other options you can add later.
If you want used, check out Fadal EMCs or VMC15. They have about the same footprint as a TM-0, hold more tools, have a faster spindle, faster feedrates and rapids, more power, can be run on single phase, part supplies are plentiful and service manuals are free and generally they are very easy to repair if something goes wrong. And you can get them much cheaper than a used Haas or Tormach.
Great video John! I'm ready to buy a VMC and I'm currently being tormented by indecision. I'm 95% convinced that I'm passing on Tormach. I'm looking at both new and used Hass TM-0P, TM-1P and Mini mills. The Haas pricing system sucks! The initial price looks like you're getting a great deal, but after a bunch of research you learn that the Auger is really needed because it's near impossible to clean the chips out without it, HSM and Rigid tapping option prices are ludicrous, and a Haas technician needed to set up the new machine is over $,1500. So now I'm leaning towards a used Haas. You made me realize I have to pay attention to the options that were purchased and are available on the used machines I look at. Your description of the controller versions was very helpful in clearing up the support question. Is yours running Coldfire1 or Coldfire2?
I don't have experience with larger machines, or serious milling, to be able to offer advise. My jobs are all small, and so therefore I don't have to empty the chips that often. As to which controller, I don't know if it's a Coldfire 1 or 2. It's a 2009, which has the CHC (Classic Haas Controller) software that is one version before the NGC software that is current. They had several other versions that are even earlier.
@@JohnSL Thanks for the reply. I'll learn a little more about CHC. I'm trying to stay with a Haas that is 2008 or newer. Some folks on Practical Machinist say not to worry about getting an older (pre-2007) Haas which is no longer supported, because there are plenty of parts to be found on eBay and with repair shops. That feels like a bad idea. So, I'll try and stick with 2008 and newer. Thanks again!
very good video with detailed explanations
My vote is the largest Brother Speedio "S" series you can squeeze into your space (the "W" if you can fit it.) There's almost no difference in price between the S300/500/and 700. They're basically the same machine with different tables and sheet metal. Use a phase converter, then buck down to 215 volts, or whatever your Brother rep recommends.
It's a production-focused 30-taper that's one of the fastest in the world. Basically, it's the baddest machine you can get on residential service, and it will run circles around quite a few 40-tapers. Way more energy efficient and with 200-amp 220/240 service? You might be able to run two of them.
You won't really outgrow the Speedio, you just automate it.
We've had 4 haas running for about 15 years straight with minimal issues.
Good information John.
Thanks 👍
Super professional review dear man:)
I had an instructor in college who worked for a big die shop, and I asked him why they don't use Haas, (that I have used a lot in various smaller shops).
His reply: "Because we want to make money." :)
Lots of money has been made with Haas machines. Are they going to be as good as a Japanese mill/turn machine that weighs 20,000 pounds and costs $500K? Of course not. This video has done a pretty darned good job of trying to make an apples-to-apples comparison. I am one of those people who is about to spend a bunch of money on either a used Haas or new Tormach. There are very good arguments for both. I wonder if this gentleman will still love his Haas if he ever ends up with a $6K repair bill. That's one of my hesitations. I love the DIY-repair aspect of the Tormach.
@@ions82 none of my spindles have ever failed, we use our machine ever day
Loved the video! When I watch these type of videos, I’m left wondering… if I put one in my garage how mad will the wife be when the electric bill comes? How much can I expect my bill to increase?
Thank you very much
I don't think it's that much. The maximum is 16 amps at 220V. However, most of the time it uses far less power than that. It uses the full power only when ramping the spindle speed up to 30K RPM, as an example. That's when it shows 100% of spindle load. Most of the time it's way below 10%.
damn you got your machine for a good deal! I'm have about 20k burning a hole in my pocket and I cannot find a good used haas anywhere around me so now im considering buying a new on from haas....
Yeah you think you buying a new one from haas,.... I got a quote for dm and the new office mill called cm and each one was $155k . yes, the cadcam program one cnc was 20k , 5th axis 28k , ect,.. tax 14k
@@desyquintero8451
IF i was looking to buy a New CNC Mill or Lathe.
I would Definitely look at a Doosan.
Definitely a better machine than any HAAS could ever be.
@@weldmachine How do they compare on price? I'm currently looking for a turning center.
@@GeneralChangFromDanang
Compare Performance as much as Prices.
A Doosan is a much better machine than a HAAS will ever be.
It does come down to what amount of money you have to spend compared to what you need the machine to do.
IF you're cutting Aluminium or similar soft materials all day.
Then a HAAS will be more than capable.
Doosan is a serious machine for serious work.
But it will also be more expensive than a lesser machine.
Same goes for anything in this life.
Want More.
Pay More.
Can only speak of Haas machines!!!!!! Totally appreciate!!!
Good information as usual John. Keep up the good work 💪
Appreciate it!
Running a program from say a laptop via rs232 is called a drip feed you don't need that dnc box to do that.
Good point. Of course, these days you need a USB to RS-232 converter. Plus I believe you need software on the laptop that supports DNC.
@@JohnSL most all cam software has a editor program that has the dnc built in
Good video, thx
its just fucked up that rigid tapping isnt standard on haas machines.. how will you make a thread without it
Thread mills will work on any machine. They take a little more effort to program. On the other hand, if a thread mill breaks, you don't scrap the part.
I work on Haas VF4 pallet changer and a bunch of VF2s and a single VF1. The machine is great. The console and all the added Haas stuff is trash. I spend more time asking the machine for permission to do things then I do setting it up. Not to mention if you dont baby them like crazy they rust and decay faaaaast. Now I can look past all that if they didn't send kill codes to machines when you get a 3rd party to repair your machine during warranty (cuz its cheaper) and warranty covers almost nothing. Haas is doing the whole John Deere model of business. Cooperate America loves them cuz all the safety features and how little knowledge you need your operators at to run them. So I see their place in the Cnc world and will not argue that.
That being said Tormach MX series for the garage shop guy is the way to go, or Syil. Hurco and others aren't really worth your time unless you get a really decked out one with Z feed used, but those still cost over 10k.
My rule is never buy a used Cnc Mill, as if they run just 1 wrong material with out filters or support, the machine is doomed. Lathes are perfectly fine to buy used, as they genuinely last forever and its so easy to retrofit any kind of repair.
True what you write about CNC Lathes.
The main thing that kills a Good Lathe is a crash.
Otherwise they pretty much never break.
Mills ????
Especially HAAS Mills.
Eat Spindles.
No wonder the HFO's have changeovers ready to go.
They remind me of Timing Belts on a cars.
Once they get to a certain run time 🙄
I've always asked to run a few parts before buying a used machine
I recently bought a C600U blind though so that'll be interesting
anyone have this for eu market brands ,,cause we dont have tormach & hass is 40-50% over us prices ,so even great machine looad shops have different brands ,like okuma or takumi ,hyundai,huron,dmg etc etc
I certainly don't have that knowledge, and am not aware of someone who has created such a video. It would certainly be an interesting video to watch.
@@JohnSL yea brother s300x1 /s500x1 look great too
Look at a Doosan.
Should be a local dealer somewhere in your country.
@@weldmachine they have mini these cncs ?
@@MrCcfly
How small of a machine are you looking at buying.
Doosan make a small CNC Lathe called LEO.
Not sure about Mill's
But they also make real machines not toys.
Their are many other brands available.
Just depends on what country you are living in ?
Thanks, good comparison
Thanks for watching!
The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten. Benjamin Franklin
I prefer to think of the sweetness of quality..., as referenced by your smiles when you talk about rigid tapping and a dependable tool changer.
"Buy once, cry once." I totally agree. I definitely pushed past what I wanted to pay, which made me question my choice. But then I asked myself how I would feel if I didn't buy the Haas, and my reaction told me what I needed to know. It was so the right choice.
Anything but a Toymach! Been there. Done that. The greatest feature on a Toymach is their marketing. Too much flex in the ways. Too weak of a casting (especially for their new BT30 machine) Having a 110ipm feedrate is meaningless when you can't actually push a tool that fast because of the deflection in the R8 spindle they call TTS.
You were not smart enough to buy a larger machine for the work you do. I have been living off my 1100 since 2007, (fine me a good running 15 year old machine that has been used for 15 years,--anywhere.), but the machine speed is not too important for what I do, and I don't use indexable cutters of cutters over ..375" in diameter.
I have over a million dollars worth of work through mine. It broke down 3 times over 15 years, (new computer for it this week), and I have been able to fix it myself with some phone service from Tormach, and have less than $1,000 of parts in it with less than a month total down time---in 15 years.
I have been around machine shops long enough to know---that is a damn good record. Buy the right machine for the job next time.
@@EarthSurferUSA You really like to hear yourself talk don't you?
As I said, the best thing about Tormach is their marketing. They market individual features of their mills as though all those features can be implemented all at the same time. They can't!
I took them at there word, bought the 1100 Series-3 PCNC machine with all the fixin's, set it up as per their instructions, had it inspected by a machinist with over 30 years experience, and started prototyping parts.
When problems started showing up, like massive leaks, extensive backlash in the 4th axis, failed circuitry, rounding errors on sloped tool paths in PathPilot, and on and on, I was repeatedly told "Oh, well I guess it can't do that under those circumstances. I don't know what to tell you. Have you looked on TH-cam for any ideas." (No exaggeration.)
You won't hear me complaining about a Taig mill or a Grizzly 0704 or any other hobby level machine, because they are honest in their marketing about their machines' capabilities.
When I was researching the Tormach, I told them everything I needed. What material and tools I'd be using. The kinds of tool paths I'd need to create, etc. I really wanted the Tormach to be the solution I needed. It wasn't.
I called out the company for what I considered to be deceptive practices. They never even denied it. I was told "You know that's how business works." That's a quote!
I'm glad you've sold over a million dollars in parts over the last 15 years with your machine. (That's about $67,000 a year. What's you profit margin? 40%? After taxes, you aren't exactly getting rich, now are ya? Especially, when you consider all that time you had to spend on that John Saunders trick with the fish-scale and string adjusting your gibs. th-cam.com/video/z6RzDphty_o/w-d-xo.html )
It's too bad you're so arrogant that you assume your experience is the same for everyone else - and can't help yourself from acting others, like some troll-aholic, bottom-feeder that has to insult someone for having a different opinion.
Whatever simple-ass, square-box, hobby-level, piece-of-shit part you make, might come off a simple-ass, square-box, hobby-level, piece-of-shit Toymach mill just fine.
But my guess is you wish you had a real machine in your garage, instead of that half-baked, deep-dish, router table you constantly need to defend, by insulting people on TH-cam for their opinions.
So, fuck you very much for your feedback. And I hope you and your little boy-toy are very happy together. Remember to wipe it off each time you use it. We wouldn't want you to get an infection now would we?
@@grappler185 dam I didn't need to read this all to know that you know what ur talking about lol
I bought my TM3P brand new and I've been quite happy overall. There have been some issues which I'm not happy about but the HFO for Haas has really been the shining star. If there's been any issue the HFO has no issues stopping by and helping free under warranty. I bought my machine fully loaded and I got it for about $65k. That's 4th axis, probing, wips, 20 pocket tool changer 10k spindle. That's also with a good discount from Haas. But the reason I went with this machine was because it was the biggest, highest horsepower, most travel my budget, and garage could fit. I did that because I could see myself outgrowing something smaller or compromising on something. And a year later I'm starting to outgrow the TM3P. So for the money, the TM3P will get me to the next stepping stone. If you don't know what your target market or parts will be it gives a lot of room to grow. Haas also has a good financing program for startups which can help get you into a new machine. And once again, it helps build your business to get to the next level of machine when you know your needs better.
Nice machine for being in your garage! I didn't mention HFOs in my video, but my local HFO has been great. Because of the work I do, the OM-2A is the idea machine for me. Fortunately, I don't see outgrowing it (unless I wanted to make something different).
Haas has dropped the TM3 and TM3P apparently. I ordered one of the last ones.
@@JohnSL
Fortunately, or unfortunately that you don't see growing your business? Outgrowing a machine is a good thing when you did not see it coming. :)
@@EarthSurferUSA Ah, but this is a hobby for me and I don’t want it to become a successful business. I have a well paying day job that I love. Plus, all the things I’m interested in working on seem to be small.
Nothing has changed when buying any product ?
You only get, what you pay for.
IF you buy a Hobby Machine don't expect it to be an Industrial Machine.
EVERY Machine has it's limitations.
You just Need to understand what they are.
Don't lie to yourself and expect more than what you get.
T
I have both...
Do you have additional thoughts about one vs the other beyond what I had in the video?
Good info. I'll be in the market for a mill in a few months
Hope this helps you make a decision you'll be happy with.
Neither, Buy a Fadal
Haas TM series looks nice (but not as rigid as a "real" VF), but they require 260cm height. I have 240cm so I went with a Syil X7 (the crate is in the boat currently), also seems more rigid than the TM.
even 1 MB of memory on a mouse is tiny!!
HAAS sin pensarlo
Well, it depends on your budget and needs. As a hobby machine, a Tormach 770M is not a bad machine that has a lot of community support. But for professional use, definitely Haas.
lol tormach is junk for tight tolerances and even hass has it limits for tight tolerance . you can never really push any tormach machine like you can with Hass. Tormach is 100% designed for hobbyist. Hass is both hobbyist and industrial.
You really can't even push a haas that hard. Put it up against a mori or an okuma and it just doesn't perform.
HAAS hands down. Don't even bother with a Tormach.
Neither lol
I have a Haas TM-1 and a Tormach 770MX. If you have the money by a the Haas!!!!! Ridged and proudly made in the USA!!!!
True. I neglected to mention the made in the USA part.
c'est bien de comparer deux machines, mais les voir fonctionner c'est bien aussi, vidéo inutile
LOL! No comparison! Tormach is junk. It's just an over priced hobbyist or "maker" machine. A used Haas is infinitely more useful.
For a hobbyist, it not be a bad choice if you're not going all out with options and you're not going to use it a lot. PathPilot is definitely more approachable, and there is a lot of information out there. The problem with the hobby market is there is really a huge gap between a turnkey Taig CNC and the next step up. But yea, a Haas is so much better.
Haas coolant pumps are larger than a tormach's spindle, no comparison but some tormach owners feel like they got to defend there poor choices in these "vs" videos LMAO
@@oldstf
Yes the Tormach owners are Very Sensitive about their machines.😭
But some wake up and buy what they should have brought in the first place.
Then they bang on about how Good that machine is 🙄
Not to put down every Tormach owner, as some only need a Router that spins at lower RPM.
Tormach is not a real machine :D
And some people say the same about a Haas 😉
For the same price of a brand new DIY Tormach. I can buy a used CNC mill or lathe, full tool changer, full cnc control, full encloser, and accurate. I wouldn't buy a HAAS either.
@@5axisprogrammer16 what other options are reputable and supported?
@@ghost101049 If you can afford it. Get a new Mini mill HAAS. Only reason I do not like HAAS is that they are expensive. Other Option for budget reasons. Get a small Used FADAL. There are plenty of Fadal Techs out there. Pay one to inspect the machine for you pre purchase. They can tell you how much needs to be repaired, replace, or not to buy that particular machine and find a more decent Fadal. Parts and Labor are cheap and easy to replace. Stay away from machines that needs Turcite rebuilt. Most use Fadals you buy you normally replace gibs and straps. Stay away from DIY Tormachs if possible. Good luck.
VERY informative. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!