The 4 Horsemen of Meaning | Bishop Barron, John Vervaeke, and Jonathan Pageau | EP 204
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 พ.ค. 2024
- This episode was recorded on September 10th 2021.
Jordan Peterson, Bishop Barron, John Vervaeke, and Jonathan Pageau have a round table to explore ideas and theories of Meaning. All three guests have been on the podcast before, and all share Jordan’s passion for the universal truths of human experience. This deep discussion explores the roots of Meaning and religious significance.
Bishop Barron is the founder of Word on Fire and the auxiliary bishop of the archdiocese of LA.
John Vervaeke is a colleague of Jordan’s and an associate professor at the University of Toronto since 1994. He teaches courses on reasoning, cognitive development, and higher cognitive processes.
Jonathan Pageau is a symbolic thinker, TH-camr, and class carver of orthodox icons.
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Find more Bishop Barron on TH-cam: / wordonfirevideo
And here: wordonfire.org/
Find more John Vervaeke online on his website: johnvervaeke.com
John's TH-cam channel: / @johnvervaeke
Find more Jonathan Pageau on TH-cam: / @jonathanpageau
Jonathan's website: www.pageaucarvings.com
_________
[00:00] Preview
[01:30] Intro
[02:40] Everyone gives their answer to “What is meaning?”
[03:30] “We're using meaning as a metaphor... something similar to the way a sentence works. It has intelligibility to it that connects us to the world... so that we can interact and be informed by it” Jon Vervaeke
[07:22] “Our mental framing is transparent like a pair of glasses, but there are times we need to step back and, by taking the glasses off and examining them, consider our framing structure" JV
[09:10] “When you look at the world there is a central point of focus. When you focus on the point with your eyes it becomes very clear... until we no longer perceive anything by the edge of our vision. It's nothingness, it's just not there" Jordan Peterson
[13:56] Bishop Barron's view on meaning and religion
[14:23] “I would say that meaning is to be in a purposeful relationship to a value" Bishop Robert Barron
[17:55] “So I'm talking to you, which I believe is a good, but it's nested in a higher good and a still higher good, so finally I want not just this particular good but good itself-that's a religious relationship" BRB
[18:20] Pageau’s opening thoughts on meaning and religion
[19:56] “The reason we perceive hierarchy is because we are always judging... or trying to evaluate whether something’s good" Pageau
[20:31] Jordan’s brief foray into “mini-celebrations”
[21:53] The idea of revelation
[24:46] “It isn't obvious to me that we see objects-we see patterns" JP
[27:40] “Like a Rolling Stone-it wasn't the first song I liked, but it was the first that rocked my world and rearranged my mind, and I think that's where real value is" BRB
[28:42] Underlying causes of the crisis of meaning
[30:10] “Something that starts with Scotus... and goes into the heart of the scientific revolution is that there’s no such thing as levels-reality just is" JV
[31:00] Science around the hierarchy of intelligibility and connectedness
[33:00] What is science?
[39:00] “There’s an epistemic hierarchy and science does not belong on the top" BRB
[42:00] “As scientists, we are motivated by a narrative we don't understand scientifically… The whole enterprise is driven by a dream whose reality can't be encapsulated within the process itself" JP
[44:00] The ignorance in assuming science OR religion are correct
[44:40] Eminationist ontologies
[55:30] Religious experiences
[01:07:30] The book of Revelations as a psychedelic experience.
[01:17:30] The Psychedelic problem and why psychedelics are useful in communal experiences.
[01:26:00] Jordan’s biblical lectures
[01:32:00] What are the guests working on?
[01:36:00] Beauty in churches
[01:38:00] Growing up Christian
[01:44:00] Possibility is real
[01:50:00] Joining religion and science
[01:58:04] Wrapping up
#Meaning #Psychology #Religion
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I’m 80 years old. I recall, years ago, a cartoon in a major magazine that showed a group of scientists reaching the summit of the mountain of knowledge only to find a group of mystics already there sitting by a campfire.
Love this
It's a Robert Jastrow quote. One of my favorites:
For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance, he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.
“The scientist and philosopher want to learn what the farmer and fisherman already know.” I read that in a Louis L’amour western when I was about 13…and have never forgotten it.
So what is the lesson>
They’d never publish that today
15:00 - When Bishop Barron says, "Good to be with all of you", as a habituated Catholic, I couldn't help but feel the need to say, "and also with you." XD
We lift him up to the most highest
And with your spirit!
Cool bro
@Nick Williams I was just poking fun at how habituated I had become to certain customs of Catholicism. I wasn't making any comment on my beliefs whatsoever.
That said, I think religion helps to provide a framework for understanding those things which we are demonstrably true but (currently) unprovable. Correct me if I misunderstood your comment.
@Nick Williams demonstrable doesn't necessarily mean 'provable'. It means it's 'able to be demonstrated'. Correlation vs causation. It can be demonstrated that living life according to certain principles leads to a certain result, however it can't, currently, be proven that it does. And if we're being nit picky about semantics, you meant to say 'accept' in your first comment, not 'except'.
I was raised in an orthodox home, but since my teens to my 30s I was a convinced atheist. Jordan Peterson through his biblical lectures helped me understand christianity in a way that no one else could. They were the bridge between science and theology that I needed in order to actually begin understanding faith and the deep and meaningful connection between humans and God. Of course, they weren't the only thing that brought me back to faith, but they were one of the key elements that transformed my understanding and my belief system. I am now a practicing orthodox christian and I can only express my gratitude for that to doctor Peterson. God bless you and your whole family!
I also do not consider myself an atheist anymore. That isn't because there is a God or anything of that description, but people use mind tricks and self deceptions to find all kinds of meaning and happiness. Even though they are mere tricks, they need to be felt as real in order to have the desired effect and that displays itself through actions all across the world with real impact. So there isn't anything supernatural but people acting in that way is pretty much the same as real and I think the only way to experience the reality I am experiencing, is through the interconnectedness between people.
So no God but still not atheist.
Not quite the same but similar to you. I used to be a fundamentalist atheist. Probably guilty of the "Scientism" they talked about. I still don't really believe in God. But I these days I see the good religions and their believers do and accept there is so more to the human experience than plain science.
I relate to this.
Same here orthodox, and I think that drifting or pulling out of the faith is induced by popular anti-God culture emerging in the west of we're all influenced by.
Jung and Peterson helped me feel connected to something spiritual. I was a hardcore atheist for many years. I still don't believe God exists. But I'm open to it.
Bishop Barron is leagues ahead in both coherency and bringing structure to abstraction in this conversation. Master communicator. People really ought to listen to him more.
I hope the other participants are not offended by your comment. It’s kind of subtle to be so straightforward about your thoughts on this discussion. I have expressed my praise and admiration for Bishop Barron every time I listen to him, and I listen to him a lot, but I would be more careful in my assessment when others are involved. I LOVE this group!
I feel like this needs to happen about a thousand more times. This group could stand to talk weekly.
Me too!!!!
I wrote essentially the same proposal about 2.5 hours after you did.
Reminded again that I’m not an original thinker.
Of course you’re correct.
Nah dude. You can have too much of a good thing. Maybe once every month or two. People make the same mistake with psychedelics when they experience them for the first time. "That was awesome! Let's do it again real soon!"
When you touch the depths of meaning, going back to the same well too often cheapens it, makes it less special and remarkable. These great minds need to go away and let this stuff percolate awhile and come back with renewed energy and perspective. Maybe some one-on-ones between them to unpack stuff might be helpful, but if they come back and do this again too soon, you'll likely find them rehashing the same points until they are beating a dead horse. The value in such deep insights and discussions is that they are rare and therefore precious and sacred. Speaking for myself, I have enough to digest and unpack to last me for a good few months. Maybe wait a week and watch it again and see if you pick up something new. I understand your enthusiasm (can hardly wait for the next one myself), but it's a trap I've fallen into before, and my instinct here is to want to protect this most valuable source of profundity.
@@alaricgoldkuhl155 Like many things, serving size and frequency are key. Nutrition value is difficult to dispute, however.
Good for those who partake
@@alaricgoldkuhl155 I'd be quite content with bi-yearly, but honestly, I just hope they do it again someday.
Bishop Baron mentioned that Jordan pulls a lot of people back to the bible, back to christianity.
That happened to me. It took me some time, but I'm proud to say that after years of fighting against the wisdom in the bible, I've found my way cautiously back to the catholic church. That would not have happened this way without Jordans lectures.
And to my delight I must say, our community and pastor are amazing. I still have ways to go to heal myself, but I'm certain I'll find healing in church.
So thank you Jordan! Thank you very much!
So enjoy the antigay bigotry and misogyny of the Church. Really poisonous crap that isn't real.
Same!!!
Welcome Manuela, may your pursuit of knowing Jesus proceed steadily! Remember it is Him, whether found in the Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant Church... Who is the goal, and nothing other.
@@publiusovidius7386 hehe get a life dude
@@publiusovidius7386 I'm not catholic, but between your post and his, I'm guessing he's not the one with the problem.
For years I suffered from horrible anxiety on a daily basis to the point where I was having panic attacks at work breaking out in sweats at my desk. I was questioning the point and purpose of my life. My psychologist said I needed to ground myself in something. This didn’t make sense to me as how could I find solid ground in the words of another man or woman. Then I came to find God first through the writings of Aquinas Augustine and other church fathers. Then through the videos of people like bishop Barron which led me to the letters of Paul then the Gospels. And finally I figured out what the psychologist meant. Even though I don’t think he expected me to ground myself in God as he wasn’t religious. My anxiety attacks stopped and my depression and despair greatly improved. I’m sure some atheists would argue I am weak and taking the opiate of the masses. But maybe there’s something to be said about the power of turning toward a higher power. And this is coming from someone who turned toward Dawkins and hitchens and Harris before turning to God so I know most the arguments against religion. Ultimately for me it came down to believing that if there truly is ultimate meaning it is found in love. And then reading the Bible it’s right there, God is love, infinite unconditional self sacrificial love. Well it all made sense. I’m thankful for people like Bishop Barron and now Jordan Peterson who helped me and I know are helping many others in their journey through life. Thank you and God bless.
Feeling safe in the loving arms of God is the best truest and most long lasting antitode to anxiety. I know because I’ve tried the other things too. Being God’s child is not weak, it’s how he designed us!
how is god love if he is letting all of these bad things happen?
I wouldn't say you're "weak", but I do think you're escaping. I definitely believe that there's some higher purpose/meaning than the four horsemen of arrogance; their arguments essentially amount to "I'm very smart, so if even I can't conceptually prove the existence of objective morality then it must not exist".
It's very much akin to someone 5000 years ago saying bacteria must not exist because I can't see it and you have no way to show me they exist. It's the arrogance of belief in our rationality and intelligence and that nothing must be beyond its bounds.
@@user-nj9ru4ef2w if there is life after death then the bad things that we see happen really are of no significance if we are destined for eternal glory. God allows bad to happen sometimes so a greater good can come about. I wouldn’t call it escaping. I’d call it being aware that either there is no meaning at all or there is ultimate meaning. And I choose to have faith that there is a loving God based on the evidence. It can’t be proved either way but it’s like Pascal’s wager, believing could mean infinite glory and if I’m wrong well I’m in the same place as the non believers at the end anyways. But there have been many intelligent people who have believed throughout the ages and I don’t think they are escaping. I think they just see evidence for God and choose to have faith.
@@johnbrion4565 the idea that you need bad to exist for some greater good is silly if god is all powerful. God could have created it so that the concept of bad doesn't exist at all.
You're escaping not because you choose to believe in meaning; like I said, I do too. But you've chosen to escape to an answer that is obviously logically false.
Like meaning is hard, searching for it is an arduous task that may cause huge amounts of depression and despair; I have suffered through that and am still suffering through it.
But because it is literally the only thing that matters, I will continue to suffer through it til the end of my life and I'm not going to reach a false conclusion just to stop suffering.
@@johnbrion4565 Also the choices aren't a binary of nihilism and christianity. Like, there are thousands of religions out there. Why christianity? Why does the answer have to already exist in human knowledge? Can't it be something we haven't discovered yet?
Mind blowing!! Great input from all !!because of Bishop Barron 7 years ago I became a Catholic from being Jewish 🙏
Glory be to Jesus Christ.
Why?
Praise God for Bishop Barron. He's helped me to get back into my Catholic faith.
Beautiful discussion... As a Muslim, I am happy Christian thought is becoming more mainstream, and will hopefully become established in the West again as a bulwark against the unfortunate absence of meaning and a connection to the divine. Everyone is better off with a transcendent aim!
Well, i pray with you. A chatolic Women! Thank you!
Amen. This is a beautiful sentiment.
Well said
Beautifully put.
Very well said.
This conversation with these four gentlemen is basically my Super Bowl 😂 I’m hyped!
Couldn’t relate more 😂
Same!
Same!
Amen to this. 🙏 Was so fabulous!
Yep!
When Bishop Barron said Aquinas called God “IPSUM ESSE”: “to be itself” I was absolutely floored. I think viewers would get more value from the podcast videos if it were always multicam view. I would have loved to see the looks on Jordan’s, John’s, and Jonathan’s faces when he dropped that line, but the video cut to the solo shot of Bishop Barron. There have been so many staggeringly meaningful moments on this podcast, it would be great to have those reaction shots. It is a rare moment in podcasts where the entire screen needs to be utilized for one party during a conversation.
Agreed .I think Jordan P had a very sore throat as well.
'I AM' is His name
The notion of God being Being itself is a very ancient Christian belief that existed long before Aquinas. It's a basic tenant of Orthodox theology that Jonathan has talked about many times, so I don't think he would have been that surprised (though I'm sure he was happy to hear it mentioned!). For modern people in the West it might seem like a new idea, but it's a fairly common belief in Eastern Christianity.
@@r.lizarraga693 Even older than that, the idea was articulated by the likes of Plato though Aquinas drew more from Aristotle’s ‘causes’.
@@r.lizarraga693 That’s fascinating! I attended Christian evangelical and baptists church services all throughout my early life and had never encountered that idea stated so succinctly and explicitly.
I’ve only heard and seen Jonathan through Jordan. Do you have a recommendation on where to begin with regard to Jonathan‘s work, or perhaps Eastern Christianity in general?
Its truly a blessing to see color in Jordan's face, I've been worried and praying for his recovery and this video has only made me absolutely ecstatic. Bless you four
Well it could be deep fake? Even real time 5g
Marvel: "Endgame is the most ambitious crossover ever made."
Jordan: "Hold my Grail."
“Hold my sparkling water”
"Hold my spiked wine."
you gave me a good laugh :-)
Hold my steak
Marvel is such Satanic trash. Never watching that shit again!
Loved this conversation, as with all of yours, Dr. Peterson. I can be one more example of someone who has had a transformative and transcendent experience through prayer and meditation without drugs. I have never taken any drugs or alcohol in my life, except what has ever been prescribed by doctors. When I was pregnant with my second child, I had suffered from depression and anxiety for the six prior years. I did as much inner work as I could to try and rid myself of this torment. I journaled, I found tapping/EFT. One of the last things I learned was meditation. Although I was a novice in it, there was one day when I prayed and meditated very intently when I felt myself slipping into the depression ‘hole’ again. The only way I can describe what unfolded in my mind during this meditative prayer was a vision - it was like a movie on a screen that gave me different perspective of my experience. The content of the vision was something I have never conceived of before. I have no idea where the concepts came from, but the meaning was definitely rational, and gave me an entirely new perspective (I won’t go into details here). In the vision I was told that my depression was healed and the only way I would fall into depression from that point on is if I chose to. Well my second son that I was pregnant with at the time is now 13 years old and I can say that the experience has held true. I have never experienced depression once since that moment. It just completely vanished. And it hasn’t been until hearing some of your and other’s podcast more recently that describe the use of psychedelics to attain similar experiences, that I realized that maybe what happened to me was like what happens to those who undergo a psychedelic experience. Anyway, I just wanted to share my experience of a life-transforming experience without the use of drugs, only prayer/meditation. Thank you for sharing your work and thoughts and introducing me to such amazing guests as well. You all have changed my life!
Thanks for this. Very interesting.
Indeed, very interesting! thank you for sharing and you got a reply from the doc himself!
Greetings,
Your description of your anxiety and your transformative experience was exciting to me.
I have had anxiety with intensity for years. I could not take tranquilizers in a while because I have been getting treatment for pain..
Despite all this, I had something spiritual that happened about a couple of years back. It caused me a real shift in how to view anxiety..
That perhaps some of the anxiety was actually something else that might be helpful to me..
It is hard to share here, and I am still meditating on it.
I do think that it is more now than a "hyped state of intensity". I think it has spiritual meaning, value... I still need to continue to understand, and meditate on this..
I hope you work out the meaning it has for you, and I wish you the best with yours too. (Smile)
Take care.
🖖⚘🌿
I can relate to this experience somewhat. I reached a point of spiritual urgency and sense of need such that I reached out to God (as a Christian in an Evangelical context) with every fiber of my mind and being with the crux of my question (having to do with God in His nature as Love). The response was a stunning instantaneous insight that was outside any concept I had ever encountered before. It rocked my world. It led eventually to my entering the Orthodox Church where I had discovered this concept in an essay entitled “The River of Fire” by Alexandre Kalomiros, and further based in insights like those of St. Isaac the Syrian. I think this may be an instance of the synergy of the “emergent” (my need) meeting “emanation” (insight from above) in John V’s terms that is where transformation occurs.
Wonderful! Thanks to all, especially Bishop Barron for representing the Catholic community as a true leader. 🙏🏼
So a psychologist, psychiatrist, catholic bishop, and an orthodox Christian walk into a bar... stay tuned to what happens next!
It was a fantastic time, roughly speaking...
And they all saved the father from the belly of the whale 🐋🐋🐋
Lol, irl
Hilarious comment hope they pin it 😂
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 brilliant
The sciences "ever more precise accounts of the cave" - love this quote from Bishop Barron.
That for sure is a mouthful and worth thinking about.
That’s so amazing
I missed what the ”cave” signifies.
Can someone please explain?
@@dannymaciejewski With apologies to anyone who could do this much better to me....it refers to Plato's cave. Plato described physical reality in the world as "the cave" but believed outside the cave, in the world of Forms, was where true reality lay. You might call it this life and eternity. Science can only describe material existence and thus misses the greater truth.
@@dannymaciejewski It's a classical story where these men live in a cave for all of their life having never seen the outside world and believe the cave is the world. Eventually one of the men leaves the cave and discovers there is a whole world outside of the cave.
So in the case of the lecture I assume it's inferring that the sciences understanding of our world (Earth and outer space) is still vastly limited.
It's astonishing how much authority has Barron as a Bishop of the Church in these conversations.
When he speaks, you can feel the weight of his words and the deep silence and attention from the other three, as they would be his disciples.
Fantastic
It's not the authority of the Church. It is a great mind well schooled in the Church's tradition of philisophy and theology
@@brittclausson3221 as a Bishop, he has the fullness of the sacrament of holy orders, responsible for teaching doctrine, governing Catholics in his jurisdiction, sanctifying the World and representing the Church.
He does speak with the authority of the Church. As a bishop he is considered a direct spiritual descendant of the apostles through the unbroken laying of hands of the Apostolic Succession.
It is the grace of Holy Orders at work. People don't know about that. The Church has grace.
The respect they all shared is beautiful to witness!
I've revisited this dialogue again for a second time now after listening in full to Jordan's Biblical series, John Vervaeke's Awakening From The Meaning Crisis lecture series, and listening to more of Jonathan and Bishop Barren's salient and impactful work. The gratitude could not be more Graciously given. All 4 of you have transformed and blessed my life and I hope to be of relevant service to those around. Participation and Love 🙏🏻
The Protestant reformation happened for a reason. The Protest must end, and is ending, but it's helpful to see the role it has played for all parties concerned.
Hey Paul, do you have a video about what the Protest is? Like a good introduction for someone who has no clue what it is? Asking for a friend 🤣
The Church is anxious to have you back integrally. 😍
Would be helpful to include you in one of these group talks.
Not forgetting the protests about the protests....
Where in the lecture do they talk about the protestant reformation? :)
As a Catholic convert from fundamentalist Christian upbringing, to becoming a beginner Iconographer / secondary teacher of the history of Christian Art and a mother of ten with seven boys who brought me to Jordan Peterson, this episode touched me on every level. Thank-you
". . .in front of the Blessed Sacrament with my Rosary. . ." Bishop Barron got it in one!
Strange to realize when is discovered JP a few years ago, he wasn't a means to an end. Through him I met so many other thinkers and thought leaders.
Can we please get a round two of this? This is like my favorite thing to happen on this channel. Feels like the council of elders meeting, or like in lord of the rings were Gandolf and Saruman and Galadriel and Elrond meet together to discuss the state of things. What a fun time
I just hope none of them is going to turn out to be Saruman... :P
@Back to the Future 2021 sounds like a you problem
Agreed!
Speaking of wizards, is he *ever* gonna interview John Michael Greer?
Jonathan is my fav. He’s always smiling.
He exudes such positive energy, regardless of the topic.
@@martinliehs2513 I honestly wish I could be like that guy.
I like when he chuckles
And laughing. Amazing guy man.
One thing that stood out in particular in this episode was the seemingly effortless flow of the conversation from one participant to the next. They seemed to each speak for about the same amount of time, which is one of the things you hope for in these multi-guest episodes. Among his many other talents, Dr. Peterson is a very gifted interviewer.
As a teen I realized that it is not humanly possible to know everything about everything and so I settled for learning something about everything and how/where to find out more about anything as needed.
Good approach
That's exactly the thought I had at 14/15 years that brought about my search for enlightenment lol
Oh okay😎
@@the2ndcoming135 lol
At teen i have so many questions, after questions they were not all answered that even now I am still finding answers to understand many things i observed around me. I want my own kids to ask, to question and make it their journey the rest aspect of life will just go secondary of importance.
No psychedelics involved, I had an emotional religious experience last month while visiting a 600 year old church in Romania. For an atheist, this took me completely by surprise. This experience changed me.
Bishop Barron is so underrated. I’ve been a fan of Jordan for awhile, specifically on pragmatism; but Bishop blows me out of the water every time.
He gets so much hate from a lot of tradcaths, but I love what he's doing.
@@jeffw7382 yeah. I thought he was especially good last podcast arguing against the will-to-power with the will seeking God.
Love the comment + pfp combo hahahah
@@jeffw7382 us trads don't hate him. I mean I'm a recent concert and he did play a role in helping me through RCIA for which I'm thankful. He's solid on a lot of things. That whole dare we hope thing is not good though. Also the catholicism is the privileged way thing. He also has some other modernist tendencies although is not near as bad as others. Most of us just want to see him use the wonderful platform to teach the Catholic faith more boldly. Trying to appease the world does not really draw in converts like his generation of bishops thinks it does. The Tradition is something so beautiful and a refuge from the modern world that it's a travesty to water it down. Bishops Strickland, Schneider and Burke are awesome prelates to follow that don't shy away from speaking hard truth.
@@zi8gzag 😂 it was a good album.
The inclusion of an artist in such a conversation has been a long time coming. Happy to have Jonathan’s input
That was excellent. I am a Pentecostal minister and I was so thoroughly encouraged by the dialogue. Thank you.
This is the kinda conversation that make me want to educate myself more, just so I can keep up with what's being said.
You won't regret the journey of doing so :D It'll only add depth and from that a beauty to your life and your appreciation of it
Check out Jonathan Pageaus video Jordan Peterson re-posted. He does a great job of setting up this particular podcast.
get your hands on a first year philosophy reading list if you can
@@Michalfx or depression or an existential crisis....
@@KJ-lb4tj Hahaha you’re not wrong. Although I found that to only be temporary for me.
It was almost a cleansing out of previous held ideas beliefs that stood on weak foundations in the real world. It revealed to me that the life and journey I thought I should be pursuing was one devoid of meaning and a connection to what was truly real.
whilst it showed the bleak reality around me it consequently showed me where to go or look to learn more. Almost like seeing a light house in dark stormy seas. And since then I must say life has rearranged itself that even struggles and anxieties don’t throw me back into that dark place.
I realise I’m talking in metaphors but it is really hard to summaries 2-3 years of events any other way 😅
This conversation may become an epoch for the recovery of meaning in the West. Thank you all.
If meaning can be lost, than it is not really meaning. It is merely corruptible arbitrarity that is impermanent.
@@teenanguyen217 love seeing people typing crap like this on youtube hahahah
@@youssefsammouh501 😆 lol 99% of people don't even speak nor write this way. We should coin this phenomenon "The Jordan Effect". How's that for a cognitive experience😄
What on earth does that mean? Organized religion has been the number one source of misinformation, cruelty and corruption over the centuries. Please explain, sounds like nonsense to me.
Facts
Bishop Barron is so awesome
Even though much of the discussion was over my head, I listened. I found the discussion fascinating and interesting. Thank you.
I feel the same...
Very fascinating, mesmerizing, incredible. And yet, I kept hearing myself say, "What?..."
Just mind blowing.
It's time people admitted that there is nothing "intelligent" about mocking metaphysics. So glad these conversations are happening.
Listen more
There is also no "Ignorance" for paying only cursory or little attention to metaphysics as well.
That depends. It was pretty goddamn intelligent the way Nietzsche did it.
Metaphysics alongside logic, morality, Aesthetic Judgement and truth are all immaterial realities that cannot be touched, seen, tasted, smelled or heard but they are essential to our reality.
@@calummacritchie7840 Metaphysics is the language of imagination, it cannot be formalized.
One of the best talks with guests on this channel!
This, "The 4 horsemen of meaning" should be it's own podcast, which comes out every 3 or 4 mounths.
agree
Totally agree
Yes!
Yup, this should keep happening. To hell with the "tours" to sell books ;-)
I’d love to see a meeting of the remaining 3 original horsemen with these 4 and watch that conversation. Perhaps too many people for a rich exchange of ideas in proper depth.
Jonathan's smile throughout is just beautiful and holy
I noticed that, too.
Happy thought-warriors!🤗
The lefties are so unhappy and angry. Grievance is exhausting and depressing.
I prefer truth, mercy, common sense, compassion, justice, optimism, hope, faith, and service and accountability.
That's the world I'm building for me and my family/community.
That's a prescription for a happy, capable, resilient, and productive world.
This was so nourishing, and as someone who has struggled my whole life with the 'tug and pull' of faith, I find this incredibly positive and I have reformed my relationship with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, it is an ongoing wrestle with God, but it is so beautiful I don't want it to stop. God bless you all. And please keep these coming. PS. We need you Mr. Peterson, please keep yourself strong, we need you to keep fighting the good fight, the light of the Lord shines through you immensely, I don't think I am the only person who has witnessed this, I hope you can feel him working through you, and if not I pray you do very very soon in Jesus name I pray, Amen.
I prayed with you.
Bishop Barron's acknowledgement that the modern Catholic seminaries, architecture and pandering to the world view has led to a real void in connecting man to God was a mea culpa I wish the whole Church would to see. Jonathan Pageau has opened my eyes to the Orthodox. I pray for a reunification of the Apostolic Churches which are separated by so little
I truly believed a unification would have happened if Benedict XVI is still in charge.
@@Lerian_V Accept that it didn’t happen under Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI- it is God’s will that he was replaced by Pope Francis.
Many Catholics are now becoming born again Christians, and it's great to see. It's about a real relationship with Jesus, and not merely religion!
There are 23 Eastern Catholic Churches - Orthodox by tradition, of various rites, yet in communion withe the Bishop of Rome. Each of these Churches their own canon law and hierarchy. The largest of these Sui Uris Churches is the UkrainianGreco Catholic Church - which is not just for Ukrainians (the Church in Ukraine distinguishes itself from the Roman Catholic and thus the name translation). It’s liturgical tradition is in the Byzantine rite and very Orthodox in living the teachings of the early church fathers. Yet, the UGCC is Catholic. It is an example of unity in the one holy catholic and apostolic church. If there is one near you, encourage going to check it out. There are also monasteries in the USA (not sure about Canada) that can be visited. Keep praying for full communion in the Church (katholique = whole).
And it seems many pagan societies aren't fairing much better for similar reasons. Honestly many religious and spiritual organizations are drowning in the massive influx of people joining and this push to betray one's convictions is really strong.
This is beautiful, I'm so thankful to be alive in this era of the internet where I can witness this conversation alongside hundreds of thousands of people, all coming together in search of meaning
Well said dude. I got that sense too - that I was participating in something much bigger than myself, which ultimately is the goal of metaphysics.
@@alaricgoldkuhl155
No. That's not the goal of metaphysics. At least look up the word on wikipedia or sth.
We are animals, we create our own meaning. People who rely on others to tell them how to live life are losers.
The four nerds in this video are the very definition of that state of loserdom.
I search for Truth, Good and Beauty. Whether it means anything or not, I long for those things.
@@TheFlash-rh2el are u trolling lol?
This was extremely insightful. I have always been a Christian , but I have only just begun a real and meaningful journey with God, Jesus, and his Holy Spirit. It took an aweful and traumatic experience to see something I had never seen before. I am horribly saddened and yet thankful, in a very strange way for this new, but scary mystical experience.
A very illuminating conversation. I have to go back and watch "The Forerunners of the Reformation - with Dr. Scott Hahn" lecture one more time.
1:09:03. Omg, the best part was when Jordan Peterson said “I think Revelation is a psychedelic account” and Bishop Barron and Jonathan react like “No, I don’t think so.” 😆
@@JAMWITCH666 True.
@@JAMWITCH666 and yet you’re describing one now…
Lol
The bishop is a fool when it comes to psychedelics
@@bend6799 I disagree. While psychedelics can mimic a mystical experience, a true mystical experience is a gift that comes about from a communion with God and that requires the same full attention and cognitive functioning as any normal and healthy relationship among humans, not a drug induced “experience.”
Jordan this is so fucking awesome! Nothing excites me more than your Christian discussions, it gives me the church I always wanted man. Please keep this up, this is phenomenal. I've stopped all I was planning to do today and instantly switched to this rockstar conversation. Bless you all.
That conversation came in the church since St. Augustine. He has a simple but iluminative book: On the master (I think this is the right translation)
God is man-made. You are delusional
If Jordan fails or becomes subverted into a schism how is your world view then?
@@8795153934 God is as man-made as your eye.
@@8795153934 Guess again
When I was a young teenager I had a transformational experience with the suicide of a friend. And I sought reason , faith ,explanation of which there's no real answer. I never drank,smoked pot, or lived stupidity after that. My dad who was taught by Jesuit s was my best person of council. You do not have to get high to be shaken to the core of the value of life.and set s plan for your eternal life.
In my own opinion, Jonathan and Bishop Barron were more calm with this Discussion Sharing. Thanks God for this great minds !
Thank you Bishop Barron for being a faithful representative of the Church!
yassss!
Amen, a gem
As a huge fan of all 4 of them, philosophy graduate, catholic interested in orthodox tradition and a Jung reader. This is a dream come true. Thank you God
I would thank Jordan Peterson. At least give the video thumbs up. God had nothing to do with it..
@@erlendurk To be fair, he also thanks Jordan and most likely did give the video a thumbs up (at least, you cannot assume that he didn't)...
@@TheClassicWorld fair point.
@@erlendurk Thank God for Jordan Peterson, who has brought these three men to talk together on his channel 👀
@@casandra0 Good one and I agree :) I'm an atheist but also thankful for JP.
I don’t think Jordan realizes how much he was the gateway drug to Christ for a lot of people. Wishing him and his family the best.
hahah! you could have used a better phrase than gateway drug but i get you. JP is the reason a lot of people (including me) went back to God or strengthened their faith.
Very interesting conversation, and I appreciate their bringing Bishop Barron on to challenge the symbolistic narratives. As a former consumer of psychedelics, I really feel for the bishop struggling to deal with this modern obsession with turning mundane neurological noise into an encounter with God. Not only is there no good evidence that psychedelic experiences are anything other than a temporary neurological handicap, but I think the very impulse to find divinity in them speaks (in harsh and disappointed tone) to our near-complete loss of supernatural language. We struggle to even conceive of the divine, the mystic, or the supernatural, in terms other than the materialistic, the reductionistic, the psychobabble. At best, we reduce it to a sublime psychological state characterized by elevated recognition of meaningful-but not supernatural-patterns. That may be satisfying to some people, but it leaves us in the same darkness, hurtling through the cosmos, as any other scientistic/naturalistic worldview. Frankly, the best antidote to this kind of medicalizing of God is to go study some miracle accounts. Whatever God is, he's certainly not a psychedelic experience, since there are well-documented people who could not walk, who could not see, or who would not even be alive, if God was just a psychedelic experience.
Increases in neuroplasticity with psychedelics are well documented.
This feels like a movie premiere... LET'S GOOOOOOO!!!
well I popped onto TH-cam for some pre Thanksgiving turkey cooking ideas and now I am rescheduling my whole afternoon because I am SO excited about this!!!
Bishop Barron is like a cascade of knowledge and inspiration to me & Jordan Peterson is someone searching and seeking that I hope reaches higher & higher each time. I wish for him the warmth and peacefulness of resting on the arms of God as his child. Cherished, I hope you feel cherished.
I am amazed at this discovery of spirit/mind/wonder. I have lived around the world and and observed beauty and as a person who has made his life's work photographing the beauty of what God has given...this gathering of the four of you have given me a new definition of beauty that has deeply inspired me. Thank You all.
That was a wonderful dialogue that left me very hopeful; "Science is not a map but a description of the terrain". Wow. I didn't want the talk to end. Great job!
@@jonde-cent4897 I'm really struggling to understand which of the observations in this talk you're perceiving to be 'imagined'.
@@jonde-cent4897 This is exactly the deductionist rhetoric that the entire podcast objects against.
God isn't discussed as a contingent being that can be clarified by propositional arguments, but as a logical necessity that is presupposed by all Being and thought, and, as discussed, the Sciences in particular. John talks at length about acknowledging this presupposition, or set of presuppositions, that science depends and yet cannot in and of itself account for, as a feature of rationality itself. The Bible is that presupposition.
Helps with the whole exploration thing. Stuff I didn’t really look at way back when I started the journey😎
Isn't this presupposition a result of the external environments effects on the cave. I suspect a cave may be a bad example because it creates an image of the external being very distant from the observable inside when they very much, are interconnected...take consciousness for example...I suspect the cave has a little hole that allows us to peek through, and so when it rains and the cave begins to fill with water, and small flashes if light show from this tiny hole, we can assume it's raining outside, and rightly so.
@@jonde-cent4897 Even if you think something is “fictional”, doesn’t mean it’s “untrue”. There’s a difference between reason, and the postmodern, reductionist, materialist rationalism you’re displaying in this comment. You seek to tear down with nothing to replace it.
There are deeper metaphysical and spiritual truths to life and the human condition, I truly hope you can realize that someday. Take care.
This is a dab on all the 2008 era atheists. Love it guys. Thank you all so much. Especially Jonathan. Grateful to God for you.
In my country, all our churches are empty and turned into homeless shelters. Atheism is strong in many parts of the world.
@@wrenlinwhitelight3007 you haven’t been paying attention
@@wrenlinwhitelight3007 Which country are you from?
@@wrenlinwhitelight3007sounds terrible. I hope you guys can figure yourselves out.
When I was younger, I used to listen to discussions with the journalist Melcolm Muggeridge. He argued questioning Catholisism and became one in the end. These kinds of discussions have been missing in the media. Thank you for struggling….
This video is a great example of what an intellectual discussion should be.
This reminds me of something CS Lewis Williams, Barfield and Tolkien would have loved. Although not rooted in fiction, the depth and content of the conversation is something that the inklings would have gladly indulged in.
Wow. Good thought! 😊
This is a seminar panel that would normally cost $$$. So grateful that you all shared it with us as a free gift. Happy Thanksgiving.
Most of this is over my head and far deeper than I've ever delved into religion and the meaning of life but I still enjoyed listening. I'm so pleased there are people out there that are able to have these conversations!
Dear Sir Jordan I might not know what had happened to you, but I am very sure that your chance of life right now is more meaningful and purposeful. You are here to inspire more of us humans who wanted to know TRUTH I will be indebted. I do really admire you by being not bias and having real grounds that made your feet really attached on it and how you are so focused and a very well composed person! I Love you Sir. You deserved to be loved in return!!! More Health, More Life, More Wisdom for you Sir and to all your love one's..
Was inordinately pleased to see Vervaeke in this.
Please check out his "meaning crisis" series. I think about it every day and it inspires me to pursue my PhD.
Edit: I was reminded that the series is called "Awakening from the Meaning Crisis."
I WILL TY
Go get it brother. God speed
Overjoyed Vervaeke is getting the credit he deserves. His meaning crisis series (and his academic work overall) is beyond genius.
What is the meaning crisis series really? Why is it genius? Convince me to watch!
@@LC-pr5or The series is an amalgamation of the intellectual development of human history, and how all these strands of history that seem so disconnected are actually intimately building off each other and forming the later eras. This links up with our development of "meaning" overtime and how we had it, lost it, and are now trying to refind it today, and why we are currently having such a hard time in society even though we are more comfortable than we even have been.
After an explanation of his history and description of the problem and how we got here, Vervaeke goes into the science and psychology around meaning in our lives, and how we can find it in the world. Even though Vervaeke isn't religious himself, he believes the religious direction is a viable way to protect oneself from the meaning crisis.
I have never learnt so much from any course in my long university career, and it fundamentally changed the way I see the world.
Would love Jordan to talk to John Lennox, would be a brilliant conversation!!
Hoping for it soon...both great people
Yes Please! Just what I was thinking.
Yes, and my second choice would be Douglas Wilson.
Oh I'm so on board with that!
@@brando3342 no doubt, Dr Peterson and Dr Craig were talking past each other on stage the last time. They are exceedingly different thinkers, and JP took what wlc was saying incorrectly I think.
Thank you so much for having this conversation publicly so that we may all learn from your gathered wisdom. God bless you.
What Jordan, Jonathan and Bishop Barron are doing right is they aren’t dictating the word of God to us. They bring us along for their journey and we learn together, not treating us like imbeciles who must be pushed down the path. As someone who went to Church of England churches as a child and lost my faith due to its lack of roots I found my faith again later in life, but that is because I found people who treat the word of God with respect and reverence and show me that it’s ok for it to take a long time or even a lifetime to understand. Religion is complex and difficult to understand and that’s what the modern day Church (CofE) hates to acknowledge so it pretends it knows and can dictate which is hugely off putting for so many people. We want, need and crave adventure and being preached at doesn’t satisfy the adventure of learning.
Bishop Barron, I believe that God used you to draw my heart back my first love. Thank you.
My hope is that people get away from the 24 hr media blitz and listen to these types of conversations. Everyone knows our world has gone clownish and we need now to become centred again. Thanks for the video.
This was mindblowingly amazing. Thank you, all four of you, for giving us the opportunity to listen to such a deep conversation.
I was raised Catholic. My mother's God was unforgiving & ruthless. My bleeding heart could not relate. She warned, worried, judged, condemned & isolated with deeply rooted conviction. Rebellious, contrite, independent, self-sufficient, tormented, with an obsessive thought process my existence her tribulation. Unable to reconcile I ran from both my mother & her God into her worst fears.
She warned muisc, movies, books, tv, art, friends, schools, drugs & teachers were subverting me. She was a religious nutbag who would never understand me.
A difficult life, search for answers, giving my trust freely, an open mind & even more gullible nature led me to the fence. Behind me God in any manner ahead Atheism the fence was just the fear of saying out loud "I don't believe".
That was 2015 in 7 years I picked the 4th option. The veil lifted I the beautiful truth we do not deserve has my feet firm. My mother was right about everything I was such a fool.
I've done psychedelics & seen things. I have been moved by God in my experience finding truth. Real research scientifically honestly leads to God. My experience w/drugs was powerful but every experience in it's own way led me astray. It gave me understanding in love but a false love, anti love, the love that is superficial & leads to damnation. It's the love of equality, peace, inclusion, safe spaces, political incorrectness, censorship etc
Real love warns, separates, disciplines, corrects, teaches, objects, protects, sustains, & nourishes.
Psychedelics does more damage than good. Not to mention the horrible experiences that people have. Which are more than the good kind.
God tells us not to mess with certain things. Drugs, magic, witches, demons and much more. He doesn't do this because it's all fake but rather because it's real. We have no clue what were doing.
The problem with the church is the lies. Lies outright & of omission.
If someone wants truth it's only in God. Knowledge, wisdom, spirituality, mystical experience, understanding, comfort, love, relevance anything anyone Seeks w/any true meaning is in God.
Just put everything aside & read the Bible. It is magic in the way a child sees magic. Supernatural intensity that forever changes you. Every question anyone has the answer is in that book.
Trust me I took the most complicated and long way back to where I began. If we coul he go back to the starting point of truth in all institutions everyone would believe no everyone would KNOW God is the only truth there is.
Jordan, a request. You can gather these 3 great minds 1 time a month, or 1 time every 2, 3 months. This debate was sensational. Thank you very much.
@@JAMWITCH666 Yeah sure. But no.
@@JAMWITCH666 I can understand his mindset. A lot of churches are just garbage.
@@JAMWITCH666 Right. As the saying goes - I heard that from Bishop Barron - "an open mind is like an open mouth, it wants to bite down on something."
@@Lerian_V The funniest presumption is believing you know what I think is best. And Baron for me is the least interesting in this conversation.
@@kaellito It's funny that you presume that I presume to know what you think I best. I quoted Bishop Barron's speech ONLY for its relevance to what I was responding to, not for any other reason.
These discussions are like healthy food for the soul. Enjoy them so much. Thanks to all for a fantastic discussion.
Jesus said: “man should I not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God”
Just as the good foods we eat become a part of us and so capacitate our bodies, so too do the ideas that fill our ears and reach our minds become a part of us. Be careful of what you ingest.
I am a electrical engineer born an 4 years of A&M. Texas! Bless you all
I love how Johnathan described the interactive experience of the Mass. The two concepts of the logical understanding of Christ and the actual experience of the Eucharist come together during the Mass.
To use one of Bishop Barron’s favorite Augustine quotes, “Lord, you made us for yourself, so the heart will not rest until it finally rests in thee.”
It’s actually from the bible
@@sleepystar1638 no it isn’t
Barron holds some beliefs that are not Catholic, like the possibility that in the end everybody might be saved. He also denies that bishops should defend the faith publicly against it's attackers. He says that's a layman's job.
@@AlexKomnenos Deuteronomy 33, 12; 12, 10
Exodus 33, 14
1 Kings 5, 4
2 Samuel 7, 1
Joshua 21, 44
Psalms 91, 1
You have no idea what you are talking about these aren’t even half of the quotes about the Lord giving us rest for believing in him.
@@sketchartist1964 say what you want about him, but he holds his own here. I also think it is wise of him to meet non-believers and non-catholics "where they are"........he's not perfect but he does a great job with the new atheists.
My guess is that some of the Trad-youtuber-types couldn't hang in there with these heavyweights.
Gotta love Bishop Barron. Looking forward to watch this!
I was looking for some Bishop B love and finally found some!
You know, I’m writing this after I’ve finished the whole video, and something has just occurred to me.
I’ve long been standing on the sidelines of the religious question, observing that we desperately need Christ and his church, now more than ever, and thinking that if only the Church had not become so scandal ridden and decrepit I would have happily joined it.
But it’s only just occurred to me that perhaps the reason it has become so scandal ridden and decrepit in the first place is because people like me, who have a genuine desire to see it improve, have been doing nothing but sitting on the sideline waiting for others to improve it.
Maybe I’ve been in the wrong all these years. Maybe it’s time I go to church and start acting in the participatory fashion that John, Jonathan, and Bishop Barron described here, and become an example and an implementer of what I’ve long hoped others would implement for me.
Maybe it is time to join myself to the Church after all…
Your sentiment is correct, but unfortunately thats not whats wrong with the Catholic Church.
The gates of hell will not prevail - Mt 16:18
Sounds right to me.
Well said. I’d say become Orthodox then, regardless the Triune God will take you where you need to be if you earnestly seek Him.
This is the council of elders. If the culture gets another few decades of occasional public discussion from the likes of these people, I think there is some cause for optimism. Let us fan the flames!! Also I would personally love it very much if Father Stephen Freeman could participate in something with these gentlemen.
Yes! Fr Stephen
‘Part of what I see my task is to take the very best of science and answer all those challenges in a way that restores confidence in the hierarchies of intelligibility and the phenomenology of connectedness’
John you are in another dimension!
Man I seriously love everything that bishop Barron does. He seems to understand religious history/theology better than anyone I’ve ever heard. He also sounds like he’s fallen in love with it. You can hear his worship
Watch Church Militant
A truly unique priest
Well said! He is fully in love with sharing what he's learned. His ability to enter any conversation and express the faith is amazing. He takes be not afraid to a new level!
I could not agree more! Bishop Barron has been a warm light for so many questions.
🥇
When I saw this video pop up on TH-cam, my immediate reaction was "Woohoo!" I've been following JBP, Pageau, John Vervaeke and Paul VanderKlay since 2017. If I have this correctly, PVK brought Bishop Barron to John's attention by way of a video that was recently posted. Great to see these four deep thinkers, all with very different training, histories and perspectives engaged in dialogos.
And imagine my surprise and pleasure when Bishop Barron brought Bernard Lonergan into the conversation. I had the good fortune to study Lonergan's "Insight" at Lonergan University College in Montreal in the winter of 1983. It answered so many questions that I had at the time, and changed my life. These four thinkers are now helping answer a new set of questions. We should all be grateful for their tenacity and courage in doing so.
And really looking forward to PVK's unpacking of what has been said. He has a true gift for helping me see what is true in what has been said, but also seeing what is sometimes left out or not fully recognized or acknowledged. And his deep pastoral experience always brings me back to compassion for the poor, broken and marginalized.
I was only 20 minutes in and had to stop to "google" Lonergan (once I worked my way through a few guesses at the name based on Bishop Barron's quick mentions, haha). This Jesuit is new to me, but based on the Bishop's statements--and particularly on the quote he mentioned that knowing God results in an insatiable desire to to "know everything about everything", I had to find enough to get me started on who the man was and his ideas! I have enough for a beginning!
This discussion is highly intellectual and simple people can't thoroughly comprehend this and God is less discussed except by Bishop Barron. So where's now the importance of the relationship between man and God?
This conversation gave me so much joy. In this ugly world, it was a flash of pure beauty.
The Bishop ending with “God bless you all” seemed so fitting haha.
John Vervaeke statement " How is science related to meaning and truth?" I think he nailed it right there. Thank you gentlemen for sharing your brains in collectivity. Mind candy for me to ponder on.
Science never once claimed to relate to meaning and truth. Its defined as the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.
So when someone asks how science is related to meaning and truth they clearly don't know what science is.
Science seeks truth. It may not always find it but is seeking it. If not, why qould anyone listen to them?
@@chaplainstudent5689 the problem with the definition of truth is it has a couple different opinions:
the quality or state of being true, what you might be talking about and
a fact or belief that is accepted as true, which can be used by philosophy, religion, feelings, and prejudice.
I think Oxford sums up scientific truth best.
Scientific Truth is based on facts. Verified, reproducible facts are the bedrock of scientific truth. Each element of a theory corresponds to some part of nature and, in this sense, scientific theories describe nature.
In a sense when science seeks truth it's really seeking verifier facts which is a higher standard compared to the common use of "truth".
I understand it's just a use of words but plenty of scientist will be quick to make the distinction clear.
Discernment sometimes just arrives gloriously.
@@donnmckee4973 Hmm, the scientific method cannot by design make claims concerning purpose or meaning. That’s true, but hasn’t prevented more than a few scientists from doing exactly that. It’s become the sole arbiter of truth in western societies. Still, I’m of the opinion that empiricism may be humanities most important invention. Or very close to it.
What’s disturbing is how easily people accept philosophically, the materialist view of nature. It’s everywhere, the first thing you encounter in almost any discussion about meaning, purpose, or truth is the following: if you cannot prove your argument scientifically- it’s irrelevant.
Without a thought, many in our society bow before the scientific method as the adjudicator of truth. There’s an old fashioned word for that- idolatry.
Whether or not God exists, isn’t the point here. The point is that it’s probably never a good idea to handover our decision and thinking ability to - a human invention. Now that, is something to be concerned about.
I am immensely grateful for tuning into your conversation today. Thanks for make your wisdom available to us. With all my admiration respect , and gratitude 🙏 ❤ thank you.
Thank you Bishop Barron, John Vervaeke, Jonathan Pageau and Jordan Peterson for this episode!!! Very much enjoyed it 😊
There was a question "Where to find the wisdom?".. I would say in the discussion of elders. Thank all of you for letting us to listen!
AMEN! The world needs alot more of this!
((Even Christ would go to the Temple and LISTEN to Elders debate the Scriptures [e.g. the Educated and Wiser]
@@NunYaO Yes, scripture says he grew in wisdom.
Finally a thumbnail where Jordan Peterson is smiling, lovely
I totally think that these gentlemen need to meet on a regular basis.
Thank you so much. This conversation was like a run in the woods with old friends I just met. It was work to keep up, AND it was a salve for my mind and soul. Here is one person feeling less alone.
Just finished the Pageau Jung presentation and this pops up. Best recharge charge my headphones and dive back in!
It’s a good one
Jesus, bless these men to understand what you mean for them to understand, and to share that wisdom with others. AMEN
Thank you, Bishop Barron, Jonathan, John and Jordan. Keep working together for truth. Integrating what is true, good, and beautiful benefits us all. God bless you.
Rejoice for God’s Great Awakening is here! Merry Christmas! ❤️🎄
You fellas have to get together OVER AND OVER!
You manage to make one another at the top of each of your perspectives.
This conversation sparkled.
Gonna prolly replay several times.
Grateful
absolutely!!
Weren't I prone on my couch upon seeing this notification, I would've been knocked flat on my ass.
Jordan, you're a wonderful man, but you've made this podcast into something far greater than yourself.
Come let us reason with each other
A terrific conversation. One must first acknowledge Jordan's remarkable ability to moderate high level conversations. One almost assumes that, given the differences in their backgrounds and approaches towards truth/meaning, things might get daunting or tedious at some point. But they've been far illuminating and enjoyable than one could imagine. And Jordan meanders through it all with such effortlessness. It's a gift, Jordan, a charming gift. As I write this, my mind conjures Rapheal's fresco - The School of Athens. This seems like its modern incarnation, of brilliant minds taking on some of the hard themes of life - and simplifying them. We don't know how all of these would eventually play out, or the extent of the impact. The four of you - as in the other horsemen of atheism, are yinging-and-yanging, choasing-and-ordering, in ways that ennoble our human experience and our understanding of reality and Being. For me, without necessarily comparing, the horsemen of meaning take the cake for coming to the discussion table with such grace, humility, fidelity to truth and love! Thank you, gentlemen.