As a lifelong atheist/agnostic raised in the presbyterian church, it wasn’t until a very close family member who was Antiochian orthodox just recently passed away that I started to feel my inner architecture shift towards some longing curiosity towards orthodoxy. For whatever reason, talks like this one and others involving Jonathan Pageau have completely blown me wide-open, kicked down the doors and started remodeling my inner architecture. I’ve never been this kind of person at all, but I found myself weeping tears of joy/relief on my commute to work this morning as I listen to this. Thank you, gentlemen. Now starts my real work.
Why were you an Atheist in the first place, with respect it can’t have been because of your critical thinking skills so I’m interesting how you ended up in that position.
When you see Jonathan looking around, listening and talking, you can see how much he enjoys these talks. Murray gives the challenge and Jordan is in heaven. We are truly privileged to witness this conversation.
@@bartonlee3594 that is extraordinary since he referred to a book written in 2022 in the video. Time travel perhaps? "Fled" is not what you do by driving to an airport and sitting on a flight. Your multiple comments about "Russia" and "addiction" would indicate obsession. Get help for yourself.
@@bartonlee3594 the comment you are replying to is about Jonathan Pageau. Who is this “he” you refer to? There has been zero discussion about drug addiction in these comments nor in the video until you bring it up… makes me wonder as to who is this “he” you are referring to? Happy politicking.
@@vinegarpisser2992 He's using a term popularly talked about with Neitzche. He's basically saying he was a christian for 50 years and regrets it. That its teachings produces a kind of hatred of the self, hence the "ressentinent morality" term. Envy and hatred producing a "self-abasement" behavior.
Getting married this weekend and baptized into the Orthodox Church this Pascha. God willing. Thank you so much gentleman. I was on a very very dark path. Redemption is very real to me now thanks to these holy ideas. I have nothing but love and admiration for you men and all your difficult and courageous work. Please keep moving forward with zeal.
May I ask: what are the Orthodox Church's teachings on Hell, Original Sin, or Young Earth Theory? I'm down to be a Christian again if I can accept it as a mythos, but if I have to believe that Ben Shapiro, Dennis Prager and Dave Rubin will literally burn in Hell for all eternity, that doesn't seem like a just God, or a loving one.
They are all rhetoricians, obviously. Nothing they said is even the accepted creed and doctrine of single church in the world. They are just trying to invent a religious metaphysical basis for the current Christian conservative worldview, which they all like and admire for its outcomes and not for its beliefs. Basically, at best jordan peterson is ready to call all religious stories as mere stories written by ancient hebrew psychologists who somehow knew jungian psychoanalysis. None of them is a true christian, you know it, I know it(Even though I am a muslim) and every christian theologian of every church knows it. They have good intentions in the sense that they want to save people from nihilism and skepticism that comes from modernity. But their attempt is not genuine nor true. Nobody believes in religion for rational reasons, no matter how much jordan peterson tries to REINVENT AND REINTERPRET AND REVISIT religion. Religious belief doesn't start from rationality nor rationalizations. Nobody will stop having intercourse before marriage or outside marriage because of "the weird fictional true" rationalization forbids it. People do that only if the hell and heaven are true, so true that the fear of hell and the want of heaven should direct your actions. The miracles of prophet jesus (PBUH) were not stories mr. jordan peterson, if they were stories, the belief in them becomes optional. If all religion is PRAGMATIC AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY useful fictions, then why should it have authority ? Why can't everyone be free to make his own fictions, which might be more pragmatic and psychologically useful ? If the pragmatic and psychologically useful fictions of a social justice/mystic leftist group provides them more moral certainty and lessens then existential angst, then why should they believe in your rationalizations ? And then there is more to say about psychoanalytic justifications for your beliefs. Psychoanalysis is in itself a pseudo-scientific endeavor and is just a reading of effects of cultural/social/material life on human thinking, not a discovery of true human nature. You cannot erect your new religion from a pseudoscience. The Christianity of st. Augustin, st. peter, st. thomas aquinas and martin luther king is THE CHRISTIANITY. What you people are doing is just making a new religion out of thin air for "pragmatic" reasons. And trying to become NEW PROPHETS OF IT. The virgin birth is true, in literal sense, and I bear witness to its truth.
@@JIMMYUNKNOWN You amaze me. You have unlimited characters to refute my argument but instead you decide to call me envious, sheep or whatever. I mean that is not something that I can refute. You can even call me evil or a unicorn or a teapot or whatever , that is not an argument, and there is no need to respond to it. What are you lacking in, which makes it difficult for you to make a counter argument?
Agreed. There is a lot of redefining here in an attempt to duck and weave, most notably Johnathan’s assertion that the resurrection so perfectly describes the world that it has to be true is the very definition of circular logic. Douglas is playing nice here, but Dawkins wiped the floor with Peterson when he tried to go metaphysical. I get the sense that this is their way of hanging on to religion in the modern world so that it doesn’t go to the birds (post-modernists). It orients people in the right direction, but it is just a story. Tag it with God and you give it some gravitas. I find it kind of sad that it is necessary to do that. Opium for the masses. :(
Jonathan is clearly a genius. I know a lot of people might see him as a third wheel in some sense. To me, he has my full respect. He is thinking well beyond what most people give him credit for. Jonathan, if you see this I want you to know, I see you brother. “Fractals”
@@Nah_Bohdi I don't know that he is a scholar. I don't think Jonathan would consider himself that. He is an Icon carver. An artist. An Orthodox Christian. A wonderful partner and conduit in these kinds of conversations.
I would suggest that Jordan is lucky to have come across Jonathan! I really do believe that Jonathan is helping him!! I believed that from the very beginning they were in touch!
@@Nah_Bohdi You must not know his background. His bachelor's degree is in art, and he has no academic degree in religion or theology. He's well-read but definitely not a scholar. And his perspective is different from JBP's in many important ways.
He's not a genius, he's an artist in the true sense of the word. He has the same kind of brain and education as me. He sees very far and deeply into things and he makes conncections and recognises patterns that others don't see but he struggles with the details. And then his knowledge of Orthodoxy provides his style of thinking and perceiving with a rich and solid foundation.
@Sen Dog would you consider yourself a Christian? (I’m not claiming you’re not. as a Christian I’ve just never understood it that way as it seems to limit God because he is also beyond all being and ultimately ineffable)
@Sen Dog I’m not one to school anyone, I’m a seeker as well. , was more just curious the perspective you were coming at it from because I hadn’t heard Christian folks describe God in that way (although pageau does use similar descriptors at times but would say still different enough that this sounded unique)
Great talk. Douglas is not only a sharp & eloquent peer, but also astoundlingly thoughtful, adaptive & creative. His closing monologue is ridiculously powerful.
As a minister for over 12 years, in a time where one's efforts seem questionable, this conversation brought great reassurance to the value of my chosen pursuits and profession. Thank you.
@alex flood I would love to hear your (a minister’s) response to this video clip below. Thx in advance ❤️ The “Anti-Christ” was never some mysterious man who was to rise to power deceiving everyone, but rather the “liberal fantasy” embodied as the “institution,” wearing the mask of care and presuming to do for people what we can do for each other - “love thy neighbor”. th-cam.com/video/jsW8UQgFOBI/w-d-xo.html
@@heads_together_crypto2422 without the resurrection, there is no Christianity. Plenty of eyewitnesses accounts to corroborate this claim. Many of the eyewitnesses chose to give up their lives at the hand of the Romans instead of denying what they saw.
listening to their point of views about education; coming from someone that's not educated, or have good knowledge, makes me feel bad as person cause l'm doing cleaning a job, and l'm not educating myself...but off topic, but, l'm blessed as well man
@Sen Dog ---How do you know that good art discovers patterns beyond the physical. What does that even mean? Show me something that is "beyond physical". What evidence do you have apart from saying that art discovers it? Then you come up with some new definition for God that I've never heard of and finally you give us some false dichotomy by giving us a choice between two made up concepts. Sorry, but what a word salad this is.
This is in all honesty the best and highest level of discussion on multiple levels that I heard in my entire Life. Thank you Jordan, Jonathan and Douglas! You have my absolute respect 🙏
Stop eating excessive sugars, grains, seeds, and leaves. Our gut isn’t adapted for the exuberant amount of indigestible plant matter the world at large would have you believe is healthy.
I was thinking the exact same thing. We are extremely blessed to live in such wonderful times. It's easy to think otherwise but if we truly listen to those who are the wisest amongst us we will know that these are the best times to be alive. 🙏
I feel like I'm starving in my doctoral program and you three, with your fascinating discussions, makes my brain feel actually engaged, fed, and excited. Excellent discussion, all of you! Lovely to see different points of view coming together to discuss such tough and fascinating ideas.
What a sad commentary it is that you are in a doctoral program, yet starving for intellectual stimulation. This is why Frank Zappa said, if you want an education, go to the library. If you want to get laid, go to college.
We live in amazing and confusing times, when we pay big $$$ for a piece of paper that doesn’t necessarily provide what we thought it represented, but we can find world class discussions of serious topic for free.
I can sit and listen to Jordan Peterson all day long. I truly believe he will go down in history as one of the most important Men of our time. God bless you Jordan, and your wonderful family. 🙏👁️
@@malvolio01 I just finished trimming a rose bush and tree in the front yard. Fixed a flat tire on an old car and cooked lunch for my wife. Anything else you'd like to order me to do?
Douglas Murray, regarding your notion that “there’s nothing in life that matters” I would say, submit your life to Jesus and see what happens to your life. God is everywhere. He’s in nature, He’s in the daily human experience, He’s in the human suffering, He’s in all things, but people don’t want or can’t see Him which is sad. There was a time when I thought philosophy, psychology, metaphysics had all the answers to life and they fascinated me. Thirty years ago I was going through very hard times in my life and I couldn’t get out of it, then I thought of God. So I knelt down and cried out to Him to show me the way to find peace and … He reached out to me right away. I felt His presence and a tremendous sense of peace and I KNEW in my heart that I found what I was looking for: GOD. God is so simple and yet so profound. No use in philosophical explanations and attempts to find a meaning to life and to human existence. He is the only source!
In a world full of disarray, disagreement, and distress, this conversation is an oasis for this soul. 3 deep thinkers with different world views, discussing the most core existential questions of life, while maintaining respect and being of equal conversational reciprocity. If conversations like this became commonplace, mankind's progression would be much more meaningful than just simple expansion and "advancement". Without these core meanings, every other pursuit of mankind will be unsustainable. Bravo to these gentlemen 🙏
Douglass was a perfect choice, very good with expressing ideas! And he asks the best questions 👍🏻 another round of these three together would be great!
Did you notice, first he asks "Is Chritianity exhausted force or unexhausted force" and quite soon after that says "one of the revolutions of Christian tradition is that everybody has an intrinsic value"? Can't we derive from the two statements: "Is the idea of people having intrinsic value an exhausted force or not?" I don't know why, but I misspelled the word "intrinsic value" repeatedly "intrinsic meaning". Intrinsic meaning feels to hint at action more than intrinsic value, later feels to imply to something static. Some branches of Judaism see people as co-creators of the world. That line of thinking offers intrinsic meaning as well as value.
Jordan laying out the general lessons to be learned (or some of them) from the Bible is just awesome to listen. He's like Beethoven with words; very pleasing to listen to.
I go to church because it gives me a sense of calm and peace, listening to the word gives me a sense of security and sanity. Having a church community, helps me grow, keeps me grounded, accountable for my actions, and incentivizes me to be a better person. Learning good morals, discipline and how to live a better life it’s why I am part of a church and follow tradition, I believe this is very important for everyone so that we stay away from depression and the psychologists. I am grateful to God for this 🙏🏻🙌🏻
I've been catching more and more of Douglas Murray (on Pierce Morgan usually), and I like what I hear out of him. I don't agree with him on many things, but I appreciate his practical approach. "We have to get down to brass tacks…" in the midst of an interesting but esoteric/abstract conversation on "fiction" and mythic archetypes. Very good conversation.
Easily the best conversation on the internet. What a joy to have this pocket of those still reaching for the divine despite the madness of the modern world. May Christ bless us all.
Our three Wise Men for the post modern age. The arc of the Star in the heavens still points the way. What a blessing to listen to these men weave their words and wisdom.
@@countdooku75 In the days immediately following HM Queen Elisabeth II's death, there were sightings and videos of what was suspected to be a meteorite streaking across the sky as it burned up on entry to the atmosphere. I'm guessing that's what @Nah Bohdi was referring to, but could be wrong.
A terrific episode - I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Jordan as always insightful and deep, Douglas Murray razor-sharp & very wise. Jonathan P., relatively new to me, yet a thoughtful man with astute contributions. Thank you gentlemen 🌱
That insight at 1:01:57 - "Is there anything more real than pain?...The Meaning that overcomes pain is more real than the pain and that's actually what meaning is." Pure gold.
@@darrylelam256 @Darryl Elam I dont know how you can say its word salad and that it means nothing. Genuine people dont do or say things that mean nothing. They aren't just making this stuff up. I almost want to say that youre just making stuff up when you say, "Yet meaning does not need to come with pain", but I think I know what youre saying, and its not meaningless, you just misunderstand what they were saying. I replied to your comment on my comment thread, and coming from that, it seems to me you simply dont have the full context, you dont understand what they are actually saying. If you did understand, and you still disagreed, that doesnt then mean that what they said was meaningless word salad, it could just mean that what they said was wrong.
@@danielgalvez7953 "Genuine people dont do or say things that mean nothing." And they aren't genuine people, what part of that aren't you understanding? "you just misunderstand what they were saying" Nope, pain is NOT part of meaning, what they said was not only pointless but F'ing stupid. Things are ether real or not real, there is no such thing as 'more real'. Meaning that doesn't come with pain is just as real as meaning that comes with pain. Meaning has NOTHING to do with pain. Meaning definition Noun: what is meant by a word, text, concept, or action. adjective: intended to communicate something that is not directly expressed. Notice how pain it NOT part of that. Overcoming pain dos NOT make what is meant by a word, text, concept, or action more real. Not having to overcome pain does NOT make a meaning less real. Its the same level of real. This is nothing but word salad meant to convince you that they are really smart people when in truth they have nothing of value to say. They do that because that's how they make their money, its a con job to get you to buy his books, 23 of them and/or support him financially in other ways.
@@darrylelam256 Why dont you think they are genuine people? Just because they sell books? I hope not, that'd be ridiculous. They are pretty smart: they are at least above average, its not your IQ that determines whether you're worth listening to it's whether you have anything meaningful to say, whether you're sharing a useful understanding that the listeners lack. And being able to say things concisely as they do in this video is very useful. Its not like they haven't expanded on these ideas in other videos, they have, so these ideas are not meaningless, there is a great deal of context you clearly lack. There are tons of videos where Peterson goes into more detail about these ideas, they are not just empty words. If you disagree with what Peterson has to say in those videos, then fine, you disagree, but they are not empty words deprived of meaning. Besides I dont support him financially at all, most of their listeners dont. And Notice how Google's definition of meaning you pulled has nothing to do with the other way people use meaning, like in the question, "what is the meaning of life." If that google definition was all there was, then that question would be as simple as looking up the definition of the word life. Clearly, they are not using the word "meaning" with that definition you pulled in mind. In this case it is right to say they are using jargon, specialized words that outsiders wouldn't understand.
@@danielgalvez7953 "Why dont you think they are genuine people?" Because they aren't. Ask JP if he believes in a god, not only will he not answer, he will insult your intelligence by claiming that you don't know what believe means. "Just because they sell books?" How do you think he makes his money and he makes a lot of money. " its not your IQ that determines whether you're worth listening" I didn't say sh!t about IQ so why the F are you bringing it up? Are you trying to build a strawman? "it's whether you have anything meaningful to say" And that should be magically 'more true' if they had to overcome pain? Or are they just full of sh!t? "There are tons of videos where Peterson goes into more detail about these ideas" And he is making money off those videos where he does nothing but talk word salad. "And Notice how Google's definition of meaning you pulled has nothing to do with the other way people use meaning" Nope. You clearly are too stupid top understand that they are broad definitions yet the still fits how people use the word. "like in the question, "what is the meaning of life."" Yes a completely BS question that assumes that there is a magical meaning to life and YES it still fits the definition that I used. Noun: what is meant by a word, text, concept, or action. and in this unbelievably stupid question of 'what is the meaning of life' the brainless fools are asking what is this life meant for, what is the reason for this life. And its faulty from the get go because it baselessly assumes that life was put here for a reason, that we are meant to do something. "Clearly, they are not using the word "meaning" with that definition you pulled in mind." And that's where you are wrong, but thanks for displaying you ignorance. "In this case it is right to say they are using jargon, specialized words that outsiders wouldn't understand." Nope, they are using specialized words to make word salad. Lots of talking that means nothing.
The practice of belief is less like practicing for athletic excellence and more like living out your love for others with actions that strive towards their best good. The thing Jordan keeps missing is that the object of our love/worship/practice is REAL. He made us for real, mutual relationship with Him. It's not just an aiming to a theoretical Best and Highest. The best and highest is a real, living Being who loves us.
I see so much of this type of discussion where philosphers, writers, cultural commentators try to make sense of the current chaos in the world and in society, and openly admit that it is evidently a consequence of removing God and religion from society (as they discuss here), and yet, as Douglas Murray puts it, they get 99% of the way there, but can't reconcile that last 1%, which is essentially 100%. I hope they eventually manage to take that last "leap of faith".
I’ve listen to this five times I keep reverting back to it because it is such a powerful conversation. May I suggest a part two between the three of you gentlemen sometime in the future. Thank you again all of you for your work and your light in the dark.
Since partnering with the Daily Wire, the production and aesthetics with your videos have been second to none Jordan. Very much excited to see what potential you have in the years to come with the full support of DW to realize your vision and have fascinating conversations.
Listening to this conversation with echoes of the Orthodox Metropolitan Kallistos Ware's lectures on Personhood, the Jesus prayer etc.... still in my ears - this is holding me so firmly in the Christian faith. Unimaginable bliss.....
This is just brilliant. Thank you gentlemen. I have been losing my faith of late and this thoughtful conversation amongst three incredible people may be restoring much more than that in me
I came to believe in God about a year ago. It became clear to me that humans have always been searching for truth, and that truth always seems to point toward goodness. John 8:32, John 14:6, psalm 51:6, John 1:1.... All these speak to our desire to know the Truth, which I believe to be the fundamental aspect of humanity. One either seeks the truth, or avoids it all costs, those that seek the truth are humble, practice kindness, and see the obviousness that there is some kind of spiritual force for good. Those who avoid truth, tend to be self-centered, callous, and cold. I came to realize that one believes in Goodness, or God, or one is evil...or inspired by the devil
When I hear this talk, I realize how accurate it is to see JBP as the great seeker. My hope is that by the end of this decade Canada 🍁 will have a different government and, probably over his objections, nominate him for the Nobel Peace Prize in Humanities. This superstar will be honored for his contribution to a better human condition. We have all benefited. ❤
@@okami425 Not sure if you misunderstood, but I'm pretty sure that it's a barely disguised derogatory name for Justin Trudeau, not a criticism leveled against any of the men in this video.
I agree, once the PC party loses Poilievre on or before the end of this decade we will be in a better position to have a change in government. In the mean time it looks like the Liberals will likely win the next election in 2025 and govern until 2029. Let's hope by that time that a good Conservation leader comes forward.
This conversation was for me one of the most inspiring from you Jordan! (and I have listen to a lot) The combination of the three of you is a perfect match! When Pagaue is talking beautifuly about mysteries of life, Douglas can bring the conversation down to earth in such a interseting way. Can't wait for the next one!
The reason why fictional classics resonate so clearly and eternally is because there is something in it that reflects the Truth God created us to need to understand. The more clearly it reflects this, the more timeless and satisfying it feels to us
I heard an interview with RFK Junior and he was asked about his faith and how did he get that faith . To me he’s answer was the best and simplest way to help me with any doubts . It was along the lines of fake it till you make it . Not to be confused with being a fake Christian, but internally if you struggle with having strong undeniable faith you can help yourself along , so instead of seeking for absolute proof of the existence of God before you choose that path going forward , you live by the principles , values and praying and continue to do so , then the small faith you might start with , grows stronger as you will experience more gratitude in the things that matter . Not material rewards or wealth but inner happiness and clarity which I suppose gives us more strength to be able to tackle life’s challenges. As I said it isn’t an exact quote but along those lines . I suppose a lot of people are put off from the start as they struggle with not seeing absolute proof straight away . Then take the easier route and go back to just relying on the television to tell them what is true and how to think . 😢
@@richardkuyper300 I tend to agree with you except it's disappointing, for me in any case, that Pageau doesn't effectively communicate the more orthodox concerns of the Eastern Church in this episode. And this coming from a working artist of Eastern Icons, and whose brother has wriiten a great book on the symbolism of Genesis. Murray is the cleverer and more effective speaker here IMO. As an Anglican, he has a keen view on symbolism. Note how he goes into Poets around 1:09. Poetry is the closest we come to understanding the Transcendent. Nothing however beats the actual practice of Contemplative Prayer.
Douglas Murray is brilliant. My first time listening to him, I am finding in myself realizations and self-awareness that I have not yet come across before.
I love it when JP talks,it makes you really wanna listen and I'm a bad listener,I got bored really quick and my attention is easily distracted,so I like this about him,somehow he can make you listen without you noticing it,and I ended up finishing the whole video and learning a lot,so thank you for that sir!
Jordan please keep doing live events if you can, I am in the UK and want see you in person, it would mean the world - currently I'm poor, but going to do everything I can to see and watch you live. Thank you for everything that you have done and continue to do.
This is such a beautiful conversation. I think the “leap” Jordan and Douglas struggle with is actually having a RELATIONSHIP with the transcendent/divine. It’s not simply about believing, but embodying as Jonathan (and the church) says. If you remain in the sphere of “fiction” and “ethical systems,” you are like an actor that can only study and appreciate acting, but cannot walk out on stage and actually take your part in the play.
Agreed, as I similarly commented above. I love listening to this kind of discussion, but in the end, it's not something that can be rationalised, or arrived at by mental gymnastics. Somewhat ironically, they discuss how the (or a) divine or "meta-being" must necessarily exist for anything else to make sense, in order to make any sort of value judgment, and to derive order from the chaos of our universe, but this seems to miss the obvious (to me) conclusion that solely rational thought cannot allow us to comprehend a divine being in a different plane of existence.
They are still blinded by their intellect. Faith is much more than a subject one can study in school. In fact the more ‘knowledge’ one has, the harder or further away from the absolute truth they are obtaining
@Emma Shalliker Claims like that against St. Theresa have been debunked. Cynical people try to tarnish the legacy of good people. Also, Jordan Peterson advocates very strongly for facing suffering as a path to self-improvement. There is a huge difference between telling people to suffer and acknowledging that it is inevitable and the way you face it matters.
I listened to this while driving home from my weekly visit to my older brother. I loved Douglas’ last statement- maybe that is what we need, something that transcends the natural. I related with Jordan’s comment that we are still living out the scriptures- I feel that in my own life. And I agree with Johnathan that yes, these things really happened.
Actually the probability that it happened in reality is 0.I will never understand why people have to build their worldview on obvious lies.We can and should acknowledge that we dont have the answers, but to pretend that the answers are obvious, foolish lies is remarkably stupid.This is closest to a mindset of a gambling addict.Those people never say, OK this is an ilusion, l have to start over without it, but rather always keep that "just one more time" theory in their minds.Its simple, story of resurrection is a flat out lie, story of Moses also, story that Mohammad was give Quran by angel too... Those are evident lies and what guys like Peterson and Pageu do is trying to convince people to further entranch in lies.
Really appreciate how Douglas can be skeptical of but not disrespectful to believers. Really feels like most atheists/agnostics/non-believers in the scene can't discuss faith without taking unfair cheap shots. Love this conversation.
'People like to be told what they already know. Remember that. They get uncomfortable when you tell them new things. New things…well, new things aren’t what they expect. They like to know that, say, a dog will bite a man. That is what dogs do. They don’t want to know that a man bites a dog, because the world is not supposed to happen like that. In short, what people think they want is news, but what they really crave is olds.' - Terry Pratchett, The Truth
This type of conversation humbles your intellect while at the same time expanding it. This is a great way to use ones mind. It is like a game of chess, give and take. Both things feed off another while growing one another. Even if a viewer watching dosnt like this or agree with what's being said, it can be learned from. Knowing how other sides think is invaluable. Helps one understand something as a whole instead of through 1 view. These 3 men disagree on some, but are more then willing to sit down and have a rational conversation about their ideas. For that's how growth happens, within ones self and contributing to the whole. We need this, it seems more than ever at the current time in humanity.
"Everybody needs a miracle to explain everything else whether its the big bang, the Resurrection or something else. Give me the Resurrection and everything else makes so much sense" BOOOOOM Pageau nailed that one, bonus points for quoting C.S. Lewis
@@physikus1123 Not really because everything can't come from nothing. There has to be a first cause. And if you admit miracles exist at all - whether the big bang or the resurrection, then there is a Miracle Maker
I really don't get the rapidity C.S. Lewis and others go from "Materialism isn't sufficient" to "therefore Christianity is the only thing that makes sense" Why not other religions? Why are they invalid?
1:11 a mother sees and feels this kind of surreal, beyond miraculous love when her newborn is placed into her arms for the very first time. It's a moment of love like no other.
Wow!...soaring conversation, weaving philosophical narratives of such profound significance that, I lost an hour & a half....in a flash. Such a privilege to listen to you guys. Contextualised and grounded in utterly beguiling narratives. Jordan, Jonathan & Douglas's magisterial ability to focus attention suffused with quotations from an [apparent] infinite epistemological wellspring of the giants of art, literature, poetry & philosophy along the 'yellow brick road' of discovery was, nothing less than magical. Thank you all.
What a feast of wholesome content for us to digest. Better than loaves and fishes for our well-being. We are so blessed that these brilliant speakers can share with us all that wisdom and truth. One day I hope that some of the circuit team will come down under for face to face interaction for our edification. Praying that I might live that long.😥
@Sen Dog So Jordan Peterson is saying that a hurtful mother that puts her children out into the world and get broken and hurt; is better then a kind mother, that holds us, and protects 57:10
@@lukehart7225 she is not a hurtful mother but a wise one who knows that her children can't fulfill their potential as humans if they don't take on the perennial human task of contending with reality/suffering/meaning and try to find, and actualize, their own mission in this world. That's something no parent can do for us. Mothers prepare us in part, hopefully, but they can't fulfill the child's mission and potential. They break the child's spirit if they try to hold them back from all risk and danger. They have to let go -- but it's painful for them to do so (the mothers) so some unwisely don't, and damage their children by that clinging.
Thank you. This was amazing synchronicity ~ covering so many areas I’ve been considering this week. Jonathan is such a beautiful person. Brilliant to hear Douglas in dialogue like this. Very inspiring indeed.
Thank you so much for sharing this conversation. So much of what was said, I think many people KNOW deep down, but to have it articulated so clearly by this trio, was so assuring and hopeful. What a beautiful world we do get to live in.
Thank you for this. Meaning is everything and until God became real through revelation to me, I struggled with mental gymnastics and looked to the great writers, even the Bible for answers to my questions. But the true answer is in God and the reality of His presence. Until the Holy Spirit brings you to a place where actual relationship is evident and is as real as a relationship with a flesh and bone person, can we understand… really understand the scripture. It is the gift Jonathan speaks of… glimpses of light. Also, Jordan is correct that our relationships, love exposes us to a glimpse of the eternal which is God’s love. Yet, even that deepest, real love of finite humans is a mere shadow of the amazing all encompassing, unconditional infinite love of God! I pray God’s love will be revealed and supernaturally fill your hearts and spur to good works supplied by God. It is what we all yearn for and need.
@@fantasypgatour I'm a Xtian but if I were you I would read Leo Strauss who in the following 1962 essay (and others) "Why We Remain Jews: Can Jewish Faith & History Still Speak to Us?" shows where Science & Metaphysics (Religion) meet. Here he is (end of essay): "In Science, as the positivist understands it, is susceptible of infinite progress. That you learn in every elementary school today, I believe. Every result of science is provisional and subject to future revision, and this will never change. In other words, fifty thousand years from now there will still be results entirely different from those now, but still subject to revision. Science is susceptible of infinite progress. "But how can science be susceptible of infinite progress if its object does not have an inner infinity? "In other words, the object of science is everything that is: being. The belief admitted by all believers in science today - that science is by its nature essentially progressive, and eternally progressive - implies, without saying it, that being is mysterious. "And here is the point where the two lines I have tried to trace do not meet exactly, but where they come within hailing distance. "And, I believe, to expect more in a general way, of people in general, would be unreasonable. “Why We Remain Jews: Can Jewish Faith and History Still Speak to Us?” (1962), pp. 327-329 from Jewish Philosophy and the Crisis of Modernity: Essays and Lectures in Modern Jewish Thought by Leo Strauss, edited with an Introduction by Kenneth Hart Green, pub. by State University of New York Press, Albany, NY (1997)"
3:18 Douglas Murray 3:48 Johnathan Pageau 5:20 Fell into new atheism 6:44 Can a society continue to survive in its form if it cut itself off from what gave it birth? 11:50 Science, Religion, like in kind. 12:36 Enacted Mode of Being 14:55 Why You Need A Uniting Principle 1. Positive Hope 2. - Confusion Disarray 15:58 Mechanical ⚙️ 17:50 Chain of Belief 19:48 Saw it was Good 20:58 Death of God 💀 🪦 24:04 Where do Values come from? 26:53 Why do we think people are The Same? 28:20 Are we beings with value? 29:48 Created in the image of God 30:44 Monotheism Why do anything? 32:54 What should be in The Divine Place? 34:56 Deepest Truth 36:02 Events Happen in A Meta Manner? 37:13 Causal, Pattern, Source of Reality 38:28 Implicit In The Order 40:08 41:05 It’s Different 42:29 The Passion: Death, Death, Death 43:44 Confronting Hell 44:43 Courage Life would radically transform if everyone was responsible 46:24 Fear, Desperation 47:33 Underlying Good 49:32 Redemption Beyond Time 53:35 Orienting Toward Love 55:15 You can’t reduce Jesus, it leaves it mysterious 56:58 Sacrifice 59:16 Non-Believers Problem 1:02:17 • Engaging • Engrossing • Actives Positive Enthusiasm 1:04:05 Phenomina 1:04:54 😊Meaning is necessary for Living 1:06:36 Love counters Suffering 1:08:15 Leninism cheapened 1:09:00 Love Gets You Through The Eternal Inside The Finite 1:12:19 A Love That Survives Death ☠️ 💗 1:13:47 1:14:43 The Beauty Out of Reach It’s Embodiment It’s Practice It’s Worship Gratitude 1:16:36 Source of Life 1:17:06 Practice Makes Perfect Sin - Missing The Mark 1:20:37 Given Up The Beauty, replaced with Banal 1:23:33 Ancient Liturgy 1:25:45 Return to Galilee 1:27:47 Reductio vs The One Holy 1:29:08 Caricature vs Participative Celebration 1:31:14 Basic Questions
Thank you gentlemen. Pageau deserves so much more attention. I do find all of life to be circling around a drain hole but each orbit I call out to Christ. Praying for you.
I love this high brow stuff . As a commoner I have the ability to understand it but do not have the time to do the tremendous amount of research they do. That is why I listen to them.We must question what we believe to find truth . Truth is what builds faith. Truth is most difficult to find in a world of sin. As far as ethics and morality is concerned ; what the bible says is the true solid ground to stand on. Historically it works when followed. Even an atheist should be able to see the good in the Bible.
I have to say this was one of the best intellectual conversations I’ve heard in a really long time. You can see in Jordan and Douglas a deep yearning to articulate and sort out the various conundrums raised. And I sense when Jonathan smiles often that he has come to terms with many of them and is in a much more peaceful surrender to those mysteries.
There is a necessity to surrender to not knowing, and to trust God. But it’s not to say you shouldn’t try to figure some of them out. Jonathan’s channel dives deeply into a lot of those mysteries and has given a glimpse into what I had thought to be unknowable as a materialist. Same with his brother Matthieu’s book, The Language of Creation.
Faith is a gift. St Augustine of Hippo took 40 years to accept the truth of Christianity and during that time explored many philosophies and rationalities. God is patient, he is also not a bully, he has given us a mind to know him and free choice to accept or reject him.
Nothing like three bros just hashing out the big questions… so fun to listen to. At the moment I see the world in the same light that Jonathan does but I’ve carried all three of their perspectives at different points in my life. Keep these coming.
words were first spoken by the will to share. words that describe our world, that express our feelings. people gathered around those words and created something new. they could see the world through the eyes of their similar ones. some words resonated with many. while others drifted them apart. around words, questions emerged and were answered, while some remains a mistery. i've never been religious, but values like family, respect for ideas that are not like mine, love for life and my planet, all of that and much more drives me forward. much respect for you guys, for bringing up such questions and sharing your deep unrested minds with us.
You got me to go back to church (and read the incredible Brothers Karamazov). Your insights and commentary have been instrumental in me rediscovering faith and reflecting on the truly meaningful things in life. All I can say is God bless you gentlemen!
👏👏👏ENCORE! ❤❤❤ WOW WOW WOW I thank God for these three gentlemen. That I am privelidged enough to witness this conversation is truly TH-cam at its best. Thank you gentlemen I will be listening agaim and again to this conversation for some time to come.
We speak of gratitude. I am grateful to be able to listen and watch this on my computer and think about faith and truth and how to get to a higher place.
I’m always so grateful that I can be privy to these incredible conversations. I’m also amazed that I can follow them most of the time! Really looking forward to “We who wrestle with God” - Jacob…
Dr. Peterson, thank you for your thoughtful and well articulated words. I am looking forward to see you live in Berlin, Germany at my 30th birthday. I did not think I could come, but finally managed to. I have a masters exam for my degree as hearing aids professional at the same day! I am driving 4 hours to see you :) You are a true inspiration to me and, mostly without them knowing, for the people around me. Through your wisdom my life has changed drastically. I am so thankful. Have a great day Dr. Peterson, best wishes to you and your family.
As a lifelong atheist/agnostic raised in the presbyterian church, it wasn’t until a very close family member who was Antiochian orthodox just recently passed away that I started to feel my inner architecture shift towards some longing curiosity towards orthodoxy. For whatever reason, talks like this one and others involving Jonathan Pageau have completely blown me wide-open, kicked down the doors and started remodeling my inner architecture. I’ve never been this kind of person at all, but I found myself weeping tears of joy/relief on my commute to work this morning as I listen to this. Thank you, gentlemen. Now starts my real work.
Amazing❤ Glory to God!! Orthodoxy is the one and true church of Christ. ❤
Welcome brother
Why were you an Atheist in the first place, with respect it can’t have been because of your critical thinking skills so I’m interesting how you ended up in that position.
Shed a tear myself near the end and though of the oddity of it. The conversation was beautiful art imho.
wish you luck!
When you see Jonathan looking around, listening and talking, you can see how much he enjoys these talks. Murray gives the challenge and Jordan is in heaven. We are truly privileged to witness this conversation.
@@bartonlee3594 that is extraordinary since he referred to a book written in 2022 in the video. Time travel perhaps? "Fled" is not what you do by driving to an airport and sitting on a flight. Your multiple comments about "Russia" and "addiction" would indicate obsession. Get help for yourself.
The aesthetics of this video are on point whoever was in charge of that ✨🙌
@@bartonlee3594 now this is a false narrative 😅😅
@@bartonlee3594 So he can't have problems or what lmao ,
@@bartonlee3594 the comment you are replying to is about Jonathan Pageau. Who is this “he” you refer to? There has been zero discussion about drug addiction in these comments nor in the video until you bring it up… makes me wonder as to who is this “he” you are referring to? Happy politicking.
50 years as a Christian…and It’s insane to me that this is the best sermon I’ve ever heard!
Amen.
That's weird.
That's TH-cam.
@@thedeifiedjulius2310 can you elaborate ?
@@vinegarpisser2992 He's using a term popularly talked about with Neitzche. He's basically saying he was a christian for 50 years and regrets it. That its teachings produces a kind of hatred of the self, hence the "ressentinent morality" term. Envy and hatred producing a "self-abasement" behavior.
Getting married this weekend and baptized into the Orthodox Church this Pascha. God willing. Thank you so much gentleman. I was on a very very dark path. Redemption is very real to me now thanks to these holy ideas. I have nothing but love and admiration for you men and all your difficult and courageous work. Please keep moving forward with zeal.
What was so dark, if I (we) may ask? And how did you come to Christ? Just learning! ;-)
Good on you bro! Always great to hear people on a good path.
Congratulations on your marriage and journey of faith.
My priest was pointing out how differently Orthodox define “faith” this past Sunday, and it’s an insight that Murray really needs to ponder.
May I ask: what are the Orthodox Church's teachings on Hell, Original Sin, or Young Earth Theory?
I'm down to be a Christian again if I can accept it as a mythos, but if I have to believe that Ben Shapiro, Dennis Prager and Dave Rubin will literally burn in Hell for all eternity, that doesn't seem like a just God, or a loving one.
The way Jordan recognizes and respects Jonathan's wisdom is so beautiful to watch. Douglas was a brilliant guest and posed all the right questions.
They are all rhetoricians, obviously. Nothing they said is even the accepted creed and doctrine of single church in the world. They are just trying to invent a religious metaphysical basis for the current Christian conservative worldview, which they all like and admire for its outcomes and not for its beliefs.
Basically, at best jordan peterson is ready to call all religious stories as mere stories written by ancient hebrew psychologists who somehow knew jungian psychoanalysis.
None of them is a true christian, you know it, I know it(Even though I am a muslim) and every christian theologian of every church knows it.
They have good intentions in the sense that they want to save people from nihilism and skepticism that comes from modernity. But their attempt is not genuine nor true. Nobody believes in religion for rational reasons, no matter how much jordan peterson tries to REINVENT AND REINTERPRET AND REVISIT religion. Religious belief doesn't start from rationality nor rationalizations.
Nobody will stop having intercourse before marriage or outside marriage because of "the weird fictional true" rationalization forbids it. People do that only if the hell and heaven are true, so true that the fear of hell and the want of heaven should direct your actions.
The miracles of prophet jesus (PBUH) were not stories mr. jordan peterson, if they were stories, the belief in them becomes optional.
If all religion is PRAGMATIC AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY useful fictions, then why should it have authority ? Why can't everyone be free to make his own fictions, which might be more pragmatic and psychologically useful ?
If the pragmatic and psychologically useful fictions of a social justice/mystic leftist group provides them more moral certainty and lessens then existential angst, then why should they believe in your rationalizations ?
And then there is more to say about psychoanalytic justifications for your beliefs. Psychoanalysis is in itself a pseudo-scientific endeavor and is just a reading of effects of cultural/social/material life on human thinking, not a discovery of true human nature.
You cannot erect your new religion from a pseudoscience.
The Christianity of st. Augustin, st. peter, st. thomas aquinas and martin luther king is THE CHRISTIANITY. What you people are doing is just making a new religion out of thin air for "pragmatic" reasons. And trying to become NEW PROPHETS OF IT.
The virgin birth is true, in literal sense, and I bear witness to its truth.
@@JIMMYUNKNOWN See, your personal attacks don't convey much.
@@JIMMYUNKNOWN You amaze me. You have unlimited characters to refute my argument but instead you decide to call me envious, sheep or whatever.
I mean that is not something that I can refute. You can even call me evil or a unicorn or a teapot or whatever , that is not an argument, and there is no need to respond to it.
What are you lacking in, which makes it difficult for you to make a counter argument?
Agreed. There is a lot of redefining here in an attempt to duck and weave, most notably Johnathan’s assertion that the resurrection so perfectly describes the world that it has to be true is the very definition of circular logic. Douglas is playing nice here, but Dawkins wiped the floor with Peterson when he tried to go metaphysical. I get the sense that this is their way of hanging on to religion in the modern world so that it doesn’t go to the birds (post-modernists). It orients people in the right direction, but it is just a story. Tag it with God and you give it some gravitas. I find it kind of sad that it is necessary to do that. Opium for the masses. :(
@@notraxxful 😂 communist fool. ALL deductive logic is circular, that's why BOTH science and religion depend on revelation, or observation.
This conversation has helped me to realize God has been so graceful and merciful in the midst of my agony.
Praise God for his blessing on me.
Jonathan is clearly a genius. I know a lot of people might see him as a third wheel in some sense. To me, he has my full respect. He is thinking well beyond what most people give him credit for. Jonathan, if you see this I want you to know, I see you brother. “Fractals”
@@Nah_Bohdi I don't know that he is a scholar. I don't think Jonathan would consider himself that. He is an Icon carver. An artist. An Orthodox Christian. A wonderful partner and conduit in these kinds of conversations.
@@triscat Yes, Jonathan is indeed very attentive. Which is why I would strongly agree with you, he is a fantastic conversationalist.
I would suggest that Jordan is lucky to have come across Jonathan! I really do believe that Jonathan is helping him!! I believed that from the very beginning they were in touch!
@@Nah_Bohdi You must not know his background. His bachelor's degree is in art, and he has no academic degree in religion or theology. He's well-read but definitely not a scholar. And his perspective is different from JBP's in many important ways.
He's not a genius, he's an artist in the true sense of the word. He has the same kind of brain and education as me. He sees very far and deeply into things and he makes conncections and recognises patterns that others don't see but he struggles with the details. And then his knowledge of Orthodoxy provides his style of thinking and perceiving with a rich and solid foundation.
Keep getting Jonathan talking to all these new people. He's the best.
Check out his talk with Dr Ian mcgillchrist and thank me later.
@@thebigredwagon That was VG+ interview 👍
@Sen Dog probably fair to say that is one aspect/feature of God…and not a description of him.
@Sen Dog would you consider yourself a Christian? (I’m not claiming you’re not. as a Christian I’ve just never understood it that way as it seems to limit God because he is also beyond all being and ultimately ineffable)
@Sen Dog I’m not one to school anyone, I’m a seeker as well. , was more just curious the perspective you were coming at it from because I hadn’t heard Christian folks describe God in that way (although pageau does use similar descriptors at times but would say still different enough that this sounded unique)
Great talk. Douglas is not only a sharp & eloquent peer, but also astoundlingly thoughtful, adaptive & creative. His closing monologue is ridiculously powerful.
As a minister for over 12 years, in a time where one's efforts seem questionable, this conversation brought great reassurance to the value of my chosen pursuits and profession. Thank you.
Yes but to what end? As you say minister I suppose you are of a Protestant denomination
@alex flood I would love to hear your (a minister’s) response to this video clip below. Thx in advance ❤️
The “Anti-Christ” was never some mysterious man who was to rise to power deceiving everyone, but rather the “liberal fantasy” embodied as the “institution,” wearing the mask of care and presuming to do for people what we can do for each other - “love thy neighbor”.
th-cam.com/video/jsW8UQgFOBI/w-d-xo.html
Is the resurrection literal?
@@heads_together_crypto2422 without the resurrection, there is no Christianity. Plenty of eyewitnesses accounts to corroborate this claim. Many of the eyewitnesses chose to give up their lives at the hand of the Romans instead of denying what they saw.
@@heads_together_crypto2422 very
It's a blessing that we are able to listen to great conversations like this.
Agreeed
listening to their point of views about education; coming from someone that's not educated, or have good knowledge, makes me feel bad as person cause l'm doing cleaning a job, and l'm not educating myself...but off topic, but, l'm blessed as well man
@Sen Dog well said
@@lukehart7225 you are participating where you are- much more intelligent than those educated and doing nothing with it.
@Sen Dog ---How do you know that good art discovers patterns beyond the physical. What does that even mean? Show me something that is "beyond physical". What evidence do you have apart from saying that art discovers it? Then you come up with some new definition for God that I've never heard of and finally you give us some false dichotomy by giving us a choice between two made up concepts. Sorry, but what a word salad this is.
This is in all honesty the best and highest level of discussion on multiple levels that I heard in my entire Life.
Thank you Jordan, Jonathan and Douglas! You have my absolute respect 🙏
It’s incredible to me that Dr. Peterson looks even better now than he did before he was sick. Truly incredible.
🙏
Money and knowledge
Because he's a Boss.
Lil help: sick with what?
Stop eating excessive sugars, grains, seeds, and leaves. Our gut isn’t adapted for the exuberant amount of indigestible plant matter the world at large would have you believe is healthy.
Peterson, Murray AND Pagaue???!! We are blessed!! 🙏✝️
I was thinking the exact same thing. We are extremely blessed to live in such wonderful times. It's easy to think otherwise but if we truly listen to those who are the wisest amongst us we will know that these are the best times to be alive. 🙏
A great trio
Pageau
☦️
Two out of three would agree.
I feel like I'm starving in my doctoral program and you three, with your fascinating discussions, makes my brain feel actually engaged, fed, and excited. Excellent discussion, all of you! Lovely to see different points of view coming together to discuss such tough and fascinating ideas.
What a sad commentary it is that you are in a doctoral program, yet starving for intellectual stimulation. This is why Frank Zappa said, if you want an education, go to the library. If you want to get laid, go to college.
Yup sounds like a typical university
We live in amazing and confusing times, when we pay big $$$ for a piece of paper that doesn’t necessarily provide what we thought it represented, but we can find world class discussions of serious topic for free.
JP is the only person that makes me feel more intelligent and more stupid at the same time.
very good description!
I think that’s the definition of a great teacher.
Which JP?
That means it's working!
@@DerekJFiedler Jordan Pageau
I can sit and listen to Jordan Peterson all day long. I truly believe he will go down in history as one of the most important Men of our time. God bless you Jordan, and your wonderful family. 🙏👁️
Listen up, sunshine... turn off the tube and go clean your room!
@Ben C I am currently listening to this while working. Your argument is invalid.
@@malvolio01 Will do. Just finished laundry, got the rhoomba out suckering and got the dishes lined up next.
I like all of these people, such a panel.. But they're wrong about proving The Bible.. PROPHECY PROVES THE BIBLE
@@malvolio01 I just finished trimming a rose bush and tree in the front yard. Fixed a flat tire on an old car and cooked lunch for my wife. Anything else you'd like to order me to do?
Douglas Murray, regarding your notion that “there’s nothing in life that matters” I would say, submit your life to Jesus and see what happens to your life. God is everywhere. He’s in nature, He’s in the daily human experience, He’s in the human suffering, He’s in all things, but people don’t want or can’t see Him which is sad.
There was a time when I thought philosophy, psychology, metaphysics had all the answers to life and they fascinated me. Thirty years ago I was going through very hard times in my life and I couldn’t get out of it, then I thought of God. So I knelt down and cried out to Him to show me the way to find peace and … He reached out to me right away. I felt His presence and a tremendous sense of peace and I KNEW in my heart that I found what I was looking for: GOD. God is so simple and yet so profound. No use in philosophical explanations and attempts to find a meaning to life and to human existence. He is the only source!
No submit to Zeus
God isn’t Nature …He created Nature
In a world full of disarray, disagreement, and distress, this conversation is an oasis for this soul.
3 deep thinkers with different world views, discussing the most core existential questions of life, while maintaining respect and being of equal conversational reciprocity. If conversations like this became commonplace, mankind's progression would be much more meaningful than just simple expansion and "advancement".
Without these core meanings, every other pursuit of mankind will be unsustainable.
Bravo to these gentlemen 🙏
It's the work OF the values allowing them to do so.
It's the fruit picked directly from the vine.
*and offered to the other
The general human population isn't smart enough for that.
Well said
I love finding that one comment that speaks for me too. 👍
Thank you to the three of you. Wonderful conversation. So grateful to live in a time that I can listen to intelligent educated men at my leisure.
@Sen Dog religion is delusion.
Thank you all three for a brilliant discussion. I learn more about myself listening to you all.
Douglass was a perfect choice, very good with expressing ideas! And he asks the best questions 👍🏻 another round of these three together would be great!
Did you notice, first he asks "Is Chritianity exhausted force or unexhausted force" and quite soon after that says "one of the revolutions of Christian tradition is that everybody has an intrinsic value"? Can't we derive from the two statements: "Is the idea of people having intrinsic value an exhausted force or not?"
I don't know why, but I misspelled the word "intrinsic value" repeatedly "intrinsic meaning". Intrinsic meaning feels to hint at action more than intrinsic value, later feels to imply to something static.
Some branches of Judaism see people as co-creators of the world. That line of thinking offers intrinsic meaning as well as value.
Jordan laying out the general lessons to be learned (or some of them) from the Bible is just awesome to listen. He's like Beethoven with words; very pleasing to listen to.
Yes. He is the Beethoven of truthful speach.
Just don't get him started on Pinocchio...and DEFINITELY don't tell him about the remake!
@@somedandy7694 So true! How do we hide the remake info from Jordan? He is going to flip when he finds what they did to it
I wish I knew all he knows and could communicate half as well.
@Sen Dog This line belongs in an epic anime battle.
I go to church because it gives me a sense of calm and peace, listening to the word gives me a sense of security and sanity. Having a church community, helps me grow, keeps me grounded, accountable for my actions, and incentivizes me to be a better person. Learning good morals, discipline and how to live a better life it’s why I am part of a church and follow tradition, I believe this is very important for everyone so that we stay away from depression and the psychologists. I am grateful to God for this 🙏🏻🙌🏻
Douglas Murray, possibly the greates guest of all time for this podcast.
With his manners you could cut out the last three words honestly. :D
This is, without hyperbole, the ONLY conversation I’m interested in. Bless them.
This is a great conversation... but i'd rather listen to "Pass me not, oh gentle Savior"
What?
@@jakeschwartz2514 what?
I've been catching more and more of Douglas Murray (on Pierce Morgan usually), and I like what I hear out of him. I don't agree with him on many things, but I appreciate his practical approach. "We have to get down to brass tacks…" in the midst of an interesting but esoteric/abstract conversation on "fiction" and mythic archetypes. Very good conversation.
Easily the best conversation on the internet. What a joy to have this pocket of those still reaching for the divine despite the madness of the modern world. May Christ bless us all.
Our three Wise Men for the post modern age. The arc of the Star in the heavens still points the way. What a blessing to listen to these men weave their words and wisdom.
Hear hear! Beautifully written comment.
@@Nah_Bohdi uh what??
@@countdooku75 In the days immediately following HM Queen Elisabeth II's death, there were sightings and videos of what was suspected to be a meteorite streaking across the sky as it burned up on entry to the atmosphere. I'm guessing that's what @Nah Bohdi was referring to, but could be wrong.
A terrific episode - I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Jordan as always insightful and deep, Douglas Murray razor-sharp & very wise. Jonathan P., relatively new to me, yet a thoughtful man with astute contributions. Thank you gentlemen 🌱
Jordan.. you are a blessing to the world. An enlightened thinker shining light through a dark time
this needed to be 3+ hours long!
God bless all of you gentleman. thank you for enlightening and entertaining us.
That insight at 1:01:57 - "Is there anything more real than pain?...The Meaning that overcomes pain is more real than the pain and that's actually what meaning is." Pure gold.
Yet meaning does not need to come with pain. Its not 'pure gold' its word salad. It sounds deep yet it means nothing.
@@darrylelam256 @Darryl Elam I dont know how you can say its word salad and that it means nothing. Genuine people dont do or say things that mean nothing. They aren't just making this stuff up. I almost want to say that youre just making stuff up when you say, "Yet meaning does not need to come with pain", but I think I know what youre saying, and its not meaningless, you just misunderstand what they were saying. I replied to your comment on my comment thread, and coming from that, it seems to me you simply dont have the full context, you dont understand what they are actually saying. If you did understand, and you still disagreed, that doesnt then mean that what they said was meaningless word salad, it could just mean that what they said was wrong.
@@danielgalvez7953 "Genuine people dont do or say things that mean nothing." And they aren't genuine people, what part of that aren't you understanding?
"you just misunderstand what they were saying" Nope, pain is NOT part of meaning, what they said was not only pointless but F'ing stupid. Things are ether real or not real, there is no such thing as 'more real'. Meaning that doesn't come with pain is just as real as meaning that comes with pain. Meaning has NOTHING to do with pain.
Meaning definition
Noun: what is meant by a word, text, concept, or action.
adjective: intended to communicate something that is not directly expressed.
Notice how pain it NOT part of that. Overcoming pain dos NOT make what is meant by a word, text, concept, or action more real. Not having to overcome pain does NOT make a meaning less real. Its the same level of real. This is nothing but word salad meant to convince you that they are really smart people when in truth they have nothing of value to say. They do that because that's how they make their money, its a con job to get you to buy his books, 23 of them and/or support him financially in other ways.
@@darrylelam256 Why dont you think they are genuine people? Just because they sell books? I hope not, that'd be ridiculous. They are pretty smart: they are at least above average, its not your IQ that determines whether you're worth listening to it's whether you have anything meaningful to say, whether you're sharing a useful understanding that the listeners lack. And being able to say things concisely as they do in this video is very useful. Its not like they haven't expanded on these ideas in other videos, they have, so these ideas are not meaningless, there is a great deal of context you clearly lack. There are tons of videos where Peterson goes into more detail about these ideas, they are not just empty words. If you disagree with what Peterson has to say in those videos, then fine, you disagree, but they are not empty words deprived of meaning. Besides I dont support him financially at all, most of their listeners dont.
And Notice how Google's definition of meaning you pulled has nothing to do with the other way people use meaning, like in the question, "what is the meaning of life." If that google definition was all there was, then that question would be as simple as looking up the definition of the word life. Clearly, they are not using the word "meaning" with that definition you pulled in mind. In this case it is right to say they are using jargon, specialized words that outsiders wouldn't understand.
@@danielgalvez7953 "Why dont you think they are genuine people?" Because they aren't. Ask JP if he believes in a god, not only will he not answer, he will insult your intelligence by claiming that you don't know what believe means.
"Just because they sell books?" How do you think he makes his money and he makes a lot of money.
" its not your IQ that determines whether you're worth listening" I didn't say sh!t about IQ so why the F are you bringing it up? Are you trying to build a strawman?
"it's whether you have anything meaningful to say" And that should be magically 'more true' if they had to overcome pain? Or are they just full of sh!t?
"There are tons of videos where Peterson goes into more detail about these ideas" And he is making money off those videos where he does nothing but talk word salad.
"And Notice how Google's definition of meaning you pulled has nothing to do with the other way people use meaning" Nope. You clearly are too stupid top understand that they are broad definitions yet the still fits how people use the word.
"like in the question, "what is the meaning of life."" Yes a completely BS question that assumes that there is a magical meaning to life and YES it still fits the definition that I used. Noun: what is meant by a word, text, concept, or action. and in this unbelievably stupid question of 'what is the meaning of life' the brainless fools are asking what is this life meant for, what is the reason for this life. And its faulty from the get go because it baselessly assumes that life was put here for a reason, that we are meant to do something.
"Clearly, they are not using the word "meaning" with that definition you pulled in mind." And that's where you are wrong, but thanks for displaying you ignorance.
"In this case it is right to say they are using jargon, specialized words that outsiders wouldn't understand." Nope, they are using specialized words to make word salad. Lots of talking that means nothing.
The practice of belief is less like practicing for athletic excellence and more like living out your love for others with actions that strive towards their best good. The thing Jordan keeps missing is that the object of our love/worship/practice is REAL. He made us for real, mutual relationship with Him. It's not just an aiming to a theoretical Best and Highest. The best and highest is a real, living Being who loves us.
I see so much of this type of discussion where philosphers, writers, cultural commentators try to make sense of the current chaos in the world and in society, and openly admit that it is evidently a consequence of removing God and religion from society (as they discuss here), and yet, as Douglas Murray puts it, they get 99% of the way there, but can't reconcile that last 1%, which is essentially 100%. I hope they eventually manage to take that last "leap of faith".
Well said.
Douglas brought this together beautifully with his final words. That was a wonderful close to a wonderful conversation. Thanks guys.
@@hairypawter8475 BAD BOT
@@hairypawter8475 Say what?
@@hairypawter8475 lmfao indeed. Dude calls himself a christian atheist and is gay. What is this sorcery? Was it really the wrong part who lost ww2?
I’ve listen to this five times I keep reverting back to it because it is such a powerful conversation. May I suggest a part two between the three of you gentlemen sometime in the future. Thank you again all of you for your work and your light in the dark.
Since partnering with the Daily Wire, the production and aesthetics with your videos have been second to none Jordan. Very much excited to see what potential you have in the years to come with the full support of DW to realize your vision and have fascinating conversations.
Listening to this conversation with echoes of the Orthodox Metropolitan Kallistos Ware's lectures on Personhood, the Jesus prayer etc.... still in my ears - this is holding me so firmly in the Christian faith. Unimaginable bliss.....
This is just brilliant. Thank you gentlemen. I have been losing my faith of late and this thoughtful conversation amongst three incredible people may be restoring much more than that in me
I came to believe in God about a year ago.
It became clear to me that humans have always been searching for truth, and that truth always seems to point toward goodness.
John 8:32, John 14:6, psalm 51:6,
John 1:1....
All these speak to our desire to know the Truth, which I believe to be the fundamental aspect of humanity. One either seeks the truth, or avoids it all costs, those that seek the truth are humble, practice kindness, and see the obviousness that there is some kind of spiritual force for good. Those who avoid truth, tend to be self-centered, callous, and cold.
I came to realize that one believes in Goodness, or God, or one is evil...or inspired by the devil
Why lose Faith? I believe God formed the Universe through Naturalist means. I love God and I accept Science.
“Fairy tales are MORE than true. Not because they tell us dragons exist. But because they tell us dragons can be beaten” ~G.K. Chesterton
When I hear this talk, I realize how accurate it is to see JBP as the great seeker. My hope is that by the end of this decade Canada 🍁 will have a different government and, probably over his objections, nominate him for the Nobel Peace Prize in Humanities. This superstar will be honored for his contribution to a better human condition. We have all benefited. ❤
Justin Timberfake has got to go
@@axidhaus lol are purposefully using the wrong name??
@@okami425 Not sure if you misunderstood, but I'm pretty sure that it's a barely disguised derogatory name for Justin Trudeau, not a criticism leveled against any of the men in this video.
@@okami425Justin Turdeau
I agree, once the PC party loses Poilievre on or before the end of this decade we will be in a better position to have a change in government. In the mean time it looks like the Liberals will likely win the next election in 2025 and govern until 2029. Let's hope by that time that a good Conservation leader comes forward.
This conversation was for me one of the most inspiring from you Jordan! (and I have listen to a lot) The combination of the three of you is a perfect match! When Pagaue is talking beautifuly about mysteries of life, Douglas can bring the conversation down to earth in such a interseting way. Can't wait for the next one!
PogO*
The reason why fictional classics resonate so clearly and eternally is because there is something in it that reflects the Truth God created us to need to understand. The more clearly it reflects this, the more timeless and satisfying it feels to us
I am completely overwhelmed by this conversation, in a great way! God bless you three men!♥️♥️♥️
I heard an interview with RFK Junior and he was asked about his faith and how did he get that faith .
To me he’s answer was the best and simplest way to help me with any doubts .
It was along the lines of fake it till you make it .
Not to be confused with being a fake Christian, but internally if you struggle with having strong undeniable faith you can help yourself along , so instead of seeking for absolute proof of the existence of God before you choose that path going forward , you live by the principles , values and praying and continue to do so , then the small faith you might start with , grows stronger as you will experience more gratitude in the things that matter .
Not material rewards or wealth but inner happiness and clarity which I suppose gives us more strength to be able to tackle life’s challenges.
As I said it isn’t an exact quote but along those lines .
I suppose a lot of people are put off from the start as they struggle with not seeing absolute proof straight away . Then take the easier route and go back to just relying on the television to tell them what is true and how to think .
😢
Wouldn't be surprised if Jordan and Jonathan become two of the greatest intellectuals of the 21st century.
Our Tolkien and Lewis
„What rules, you sons of bitches?“ „Up yours, woke moralists! We‘ll see who cancels who!“ Truly one of the minds of our time
He’s one of the most idiotic intellectuals of our time, that’s for sure.
@@famatu And of course you will back that up with evidence? Or do you just feel like he is so it must be true
@@famatu so you get your take of him based on meme clips. Says alot about your attention span...
Gotta love Douglas Murray and his clarity to define.
I find Murray to be more clever than profound. Pageau I is the deeper thinker.
@@richardkuyper300 I tend to agree with you except it's disappointing, for me in any case, that Pageau doesn't effectively communicate the more orthodox concerns of the Eastern Church in this episode. And this coming from a working artist of Eastern Icons, and whose brother has wriiten a great book on the symbolism of Genesis. Murray is the cleverer and more effective speaker here IMO. As an Anglican, he has a keen view on symbolism. Note how he goes into Poets around 1:09. Poetry is the closest we come to understanding the Transcendent. Nothing however beats the actual practice of Contemplative Prayer.
Douglas Murray is brilliant. My first time listening to him, I am finding in myself realizations and self-awareness that I have not yet come across before.
You must be joking; he’s a pompous ignoramus
You can see and feel the passion in the conversation. Brilliant stuff. Thank you!
I see Douglas Murray, I click.
Ikr! He doesn’t do nearly enough interviews to suit me
I love it when JP talks,it makes you really wanna listen and I'm a bad listener,I got bored really quick and my attention is easily distracted,so I like this about him,somehow he can make you listen without you noticing it,and I ended up finishing the whole video and learning a lot,so thank you for that sir!
Always excited to see Murray on anyone’s show.
Me too!!!! Same with Greg Lukianoff as well
Aren't we all so privileged to listen to conversations like this for free!
Jordan please keep doing live events if you can, I am in the UK and want see you in person, it would mean the world - currently I'm poor, but going to do everything I can to see and watch you live. Thank you for everything that you have done and continue to do.
This is such a beautiful conversation. I think the “leap” Jordan and Douglas struggle with is actually having a RELATIONSHIP with the transcendent/divine. It’s not simply about believing, but embodying as Jonathan (and the church) says. If you remain in the sphere of “fiction” and “ethical systems,” you are like an actor that can only study and appreciate acting, but cannot walk out on stage and actually take your part in the play.
Great comment. Something I'm encountering now. I've always believed but haven't sufficiently stepped on to the stage.
Agreed, as I similarly commented above. I love listening to this kind of discussion, but in the end, it's not something that can be rationalised, or arrived at by mental gymnastics.
Somewhat ironically, they discuss how the (or a) divine or "meta-being" must necessarily exist for anything else to make sense, in order to make any sort of value judgment, and to derive order from the chaos of our universe, but this seems to miss the obvious (to me) conclusion that solely rational thought cannot allow us to comprehend a divine being in a different plane of existence.
They are still blinded by their intellect. Faith is much more than a subject one can study in school. In fact the more ‘knowledge’ one has, the harder or further away from the absolute truth they are obtaining
Embody like Mother Teresa who didn't believe in medicine or birth control and thought suffering was a way to heaven? Like that? Pft.
@Emma Shalliker Claims like that against St. Theresa have been debunked. Cynical people try to tarnish the legacy of good people. Also, Jordan Peterson advocates very strongly for facing suffering as a path to self-improvement. There is a huge difference between telling people to suffer and acknowledging that it is inevitable and the way you face it matters.
This man is producing more crossovers than Marvel could ever dream of.
I listened to this while driving home from my weekly visit to my older brother. I loved Douglas’ last statement- maybe that is what we need, something that transcends the natural. I related with Jordan’s comment that we are still living out the scriptures- I feel that in my own life. And I agree with Johnathan that yes, these things really happened.
Actually the probability that it happened in reality is 0.I will never understand why people have to build their worldview on obvious lies.We can and should acknowledge that we dont have the answers, but to pretend that the answers are obvious, foolish lies is remarkably stupid.This is closest to a mindset of a gambling addict.Those people never say, OK this is an ilusion, l have to start over without it, but rather always keep that "just one more time" theory in their minds.Its simple, story of resurrection is a flat out lie, story of Moses also, story that Mohammad was give Quran by angel too... Those are evident lies and what guys like Peterson and Pageu do is trying to convince people to further entranch in lies.
Really appreciate how Douglas can be skeptical of but not disrespectful to believers. Really feels like most atheists/agnostics/non-believers in the scene can't discuss faith without taking unfair cheap shots. Love this conversation.
Jordan Peterson is so wise he tells you what you already know, before you realize you’ve known it all along.
As a matter of fact, he has articulate many things I believed to be true, or rather, ideas I was starting to develop and think through.
@@adampindell absolutely same here sir !
Ironically, this comment did exactly the same thing lol
Yes, he’s brilliant!
'People like to be told what they already know. Remember that. They get uncomfortable when you tell them new
things. New things…well, new things aren’t what they expect. They like to know that, say, a dog will bite a man.
That is what dogs do. They don’t want to know that a man bites a dog, because the world is not supposed to happen like that. In short, what people think they want is news, but what they really crave is olds.' - Terry Pratchett, The Truth
My three ABSOLUTE FAVORITE speakers... it was a joy.
This is the trifecta of guests! I respect Pageau and Murray greatly! Excellent podcast! Thank you
This type of conversation humbles your intellect while at the same time expanding it. This is a great way to use ones mind. It is like a game of chess, give and take. Both things feed off another while growing one another. Even if a viewer watching dosnt like this or agree with what's being said, it can be learned from. Knowing how other sides think is invaluable. Helps one understand something as a whole instead of through 1 view. These 3 men disagree on some, but are more then willing to sit down and have a rational conversation about their ideas. For that's how growth happens, within ones self and contributing to the whole. We need this, it seems more than ever at the current time in humanity.
I love how Peterson and Pageau slowly scooted closer on the couch over the course of the conversation haha
Its like the love Jesus had for his deciples.
Jordan did not Pageau. I noticed that too but I didn’t think it was worth commenting on.
Feels like Peterson is slowly getting healthier. Glory to God! Wonderful seeing Jonathan get more screen time. Douglas is brilliant as well
"Everybody needs a miracle to explain everything else whether its the big bang, the Resurrection or something else. Give me the Resurrection and everything else makes so much sense" BOOOOOM Pageau nailed that one, bonus points for quoting C.S. Lewis
The funny thing is, it can be turned around and it works just as well...
@@physikus1123 Not really because everything can't come from nothing. There has to be a first cause. And if you admit miracles exist at all - whether the big bang or the resurrection, then there is a Miracle Maker
@@GregorDuckman I absolutely got that from Bill Craig, but its also common sense and its also a great argument. I would love to see WLC on here.
@@GregorDuckman you have no response, keep rolling your eyes all you want.
I really don't get the rapidity C.S. Lewis and others go from "Materialism isn't sufficient" to "therefore Christianity is the only thing that makes sense"
Why not other religions? Why are they invalid?
1:11 a mother sees and feels this kind of surreal, beyond miraculous love when her newborn is placed into her arms for the very first time. It's a moment of love like no other.
Wow!...soaring conversation, weaving philosophical narratives of such profound significance that, I lost an hour & a half....in a flash. Such a privilege to listen to you guys. Contextualised and grounded in utterly beguiling narratives. Jordan, Jonathan & Douglas's magisterial ability to focus attention suffused with quotations from an [apparent] infinite epistemological wellspring of the giants of art, literature, poetry & philosophy along the 'yellow brick road' of discovery was, nothing less than magical. Thank you all.
What a feast of wholesome content for us to digest. Better than loaves and fishes for our well-being. We are so blessed that these brilliant speakers can share with us all that wisdom and truth. One day I hope that some of the circuit team will come down under for face to face interaction for our edification. Praying that I might live that long.😥
@Sen Dog So Jordan Peterson is saying that a hurtful mother that puts her children out into the world and get broken and hurt; is better then a kind mother, that holds us, and protects 57:10
I could go for a loaf of fish right now.
@@lukehart7225 she is not a hurtful mother but a wise one who knows that her children can't fulfill their potential as humans if they don't take on the perennial human task of contending with reality/suffering/meaning and try to find, and actualize, their own mission in this world. That's something no parent can do for us. Mothers prepare us in part, hopefully, but they can't fulfill the child's mission and potential. They break the child's spirit if they try to hold them back from all risk and danger. They have to let go -- but it's painful for them to do so (the mothers) so some unwisely don't, and damage their children by that clinging.
Thank you. This was amazing synchronicity ~ covering so many areas I’ve been considering this week.
Jonathan is such a beautiful person. Brilliant to hear Douglas in dialogue like this. Very inspiring indeed.
Thank you so much for sharing this conversation. So much of what was said, I think many people KNOW deep down, but to have it articulated so clearly by this trio, was so assuring and hopeful. What a beautiful world we do get to live in.
Thank you for this. Meaning is everything and until God became real through revelation to me, I struggled with mental gymnastics and looked to the great writers, even the Bible for answers to my questions. But the true answer is in God and the reality of His presence. Until the Holy Spirit brings you to a place where actual relationship is evident and is as real as a relationship with a flesh and bone person, can we understand… really understand the scripture. It is the gift Jonathan speaks of… glimpses of light. Also, Jordan is correct that our relationships, love exposes us to a glimpse of the eternal which is God’s love. Yet, even that deepest, real love of finite humans is a mere shadow of the amazing all encompassing, unconditional infinite love of God! I pray God’s love will be revealed and supernaturally fill your hearts and spur to good works supplied by God. It is what we all yearn for and need.
The Scriptures DO have the answers though.
I have been seeking for 3 decades and I thought I had it a few times but alas I hadn't I'm now the most nihilist I've ever been, any advice?
@@fantasypgatour I'm a Xtian but if I were you I would read Leo Strauss who in the following 1962 essay (and others) "Why We Remain Jews: Can Jewish Faith & History Still Speak to Us?" shows where Science & Metaphysics (Religion) meet. Here he is (end of essay):
"In Science, as the positivist understands it, is susceptible of infinite progress. That you learn in every elementary school today, I believe. Every result of science is provisional and subject to future revision, and this will never change. In other words, fifty thousand years from now there will still be results entirely different from those now, but still subject to revision. Science is susceptible of infinite progress.
"But how can science be susceptible of infinite progress if its object does not have an inner infinity?
"In other words, the object of science is everything that is: being. The belief admitted by all believers in science today - that science is by its nature essentially progressive, and eternally progressive - implies, without saying it, that being is mysterious.
"And here is the point where the two lines I have tried to trace do not meet exactly, but where they come within hailing distance.
"And, I believe, to expect more in a general way, of people in general, would be unreasonable.
“Why We Remain Jews: Can Jewish Faith and History Still Speak to Us?” (1962), pp. 327-329 from Jewish Philosophy and the Crisis of Modernity: Essays and Lectures in Modern Jewish Thought by Leo Strauss, edited with an Introduction by Kenneth Hart Green, pub. by State University of New York Press, Albany, NY (1997)"
I totally connect with your comment.
3:18 Douglas Murray
3:48 Johnathan Pageau
5:20 Fell into new atheism 6:44 Can a society continue to survive in its form if it cut itself off from what gave it birth?
11:50 Science, Religion, like in kind.
12:36 Enacted Mode of Being
14:55 Why You Need A Uniting Principle
1. Positive Hope
2. - Confusion Disarray
15:58 Mechanical ⚙️
17:50 Chain of Belief
19:48 Saw it was Good
20:58 Death of God 💀 🪦
24:04 Where do Values come from?
26:53 Why do we think people are The Same?
28:20 Are we beings with value? 29:48 Created in the image of God
30:44 Monotheism
Why do anything?
32:54 What should be in The Divine Place?
34:56 Deepest Truth
36:02 Events Happen in A Meta Manner?
37:13 Causal, Pattern, Source of Reality
38:28 Implicit In The Order
40:08
41:05 It’s Different
42:29 The Passion: Death, Death, Death
43:44 Confronting Hell
44:43 Courage
Life would radically transform if everyone was responsible
46:24 Fear, Desperation
47:33 Underlying Good
49:32 Redemption Beyond Time
53:35 Orienting Toward Love
55:15 You can’t reduce Jesus, it leaves it mysterious 56:58 Sacrifice
59:16 Non-Believers Problem
1:02:17
• Engaging
• Engrossing
• Actives Positive Enthusiasm
1:04:05 Phenomina
1:04:54 😊Meaning is necessary for Living
1:06:36 Love counters Suffering
1:08:15 Leninism cheapened
1:09:00 Love Gets You Through
The Eternal Inside The Finite
1:12:19 A Love That Survives Death ☠️ 💗
1:13:47
1:14:43 The Beauty Out of Reach
It’s Embodiment
It’s Practice
It’s Worship
Gratitude
1:16:36 Source of Life
1:17:06 Practice Makes Perfect
Sin - Missing The Mark
1:20:37 Given Up The Beauty, replaced with Banal
1:23:33 Ancient Liturgy
1:25:45 Return to Galilee
1:27:47 Reductio vs The One Holy
1:29:08 Caricature vs Participative Celebration
1:31:14 Basic Questions
Thank you
Every time he uploads a new video it makes my day more interesting.
This is amazing podcast. Thank you very much. One of the best.
Dr. Peterson, every now and again I come back to your channel to thank you for saving me.
This made an hour and half feel as if it were but a moment. Thanks for the excellent dialogue!
I absolutely love these conversations.
Thank you gentlemen.
Pageau deserves so much more attention.
I do find all of life to be circling around a drain hole but each orbit I call out to Christ. Praying for you.
Heartfelt thanks to all of you. Awesome info & debate.
Love this. Actual thinking and discussing! No shouting and abuse which I’m sick of online. Thank you!
I could listen to these 3 talk for days. What a great conversation.
I love this high brow stuff . As a commoner I have the ability to understand it but do not have the time to do the tremendous amount of research they do. That is why I listen to them.We must question what we believe to find truth . Truth is what builds faith. Truth is most difficult to find in a world of sin.
As far as ethics and morality is concerned ; what the bible says is the true solid ground to stand on. Historically it works when followed. Even an atheist should be able to see the good in the Bible.
I have to say this was one of the best intellectual conversations I’ve heard in a really long time. You can see in Jordan and Douglas a deep yearning to articulate and sort out the various conundrums raised. And I sense when Jonathan smiles often that he has come to terms with many of them and is in a much more peaceful surrender to those mysteries.
There is a necessity to surrender to not knowing, and to trust God. But it’s not to say you shouldn’t try to figure some of them out. Jonathan’s channel dives deeply into a lot of those mysteries and has given a glimpse into what I had thought to be unknowable as a materialist. Same with his brother Matthieu’s book, The Language of Creation.
Faith is a gift. St Augustine of Hippo took 40 years to accept the truth of Christianity and during that time explored many philosophies and rationalities. God is patient, he is also not a bully, he has given us a mind to know him and free choice to accept or reject him.
Nothing like three bros just hashing out the big questions… so fun to listen to. At the moment I see the world in the same light that Jonathan does but I’ve carried all three of their perspectives at different points in my life. Keep these coming.
words were first spoken by the will to share. words that describe our world, that express our feelings. people gathered around those words and created something new. they could see the world through the eyes of their similar ones. some words resonated with many. while others drifted them apart. around words, questions emerged and were answered, while some remains a mistery. i've never been religious, but values like family, respect for ideas that are not like mine, love for life and my planet, all of that and much more drives me forward. much respect for you guys, for bringing up such questions and sharing your deep unrested minds with us.
You got me to go back to church (and read the incredible Brothers Karamazov). Your insights and commentary have been instrumental in me rediscovering faith and reflecting on the truly meaningful things in life. All I can say is God bless you gentlemen!
It's a wonderful thing when something galvanises us! 😉
👏👏👏ENCORE! ❤❤❤ WOW WOW WOW I thank God for these three gentlemen. That I am privelidged enough to witness this conversation is truly TH-cam at its best. Thank you gentlemen I will be listening agaim and again to this conversation for some time to come.
One of the best Jordan Peterson podcasts I've ever seen. A perfect harmony of respect, honesty, intellect and candor.
Absolutely beautiful. Yes, we should do this again. Brilliant, gentlemen. Thank you.
We speak of gratitude. I am grateful to be able to listen and watch this on my computer and think about faith and truth and how to get to a higher place.
Love having Jonathan Pageau! Keep him comin'!
Fascinating discussion. Douglass had some great questions and points to raise, but I think Jonathan addressed them really well.
Jordan and douglas. Two of my heroes. Well done!
Jordan and Douglas are 2 of the finest humans to ever walk on this planet. Love hearing their thoughts on this thing we call life.
please delete your comment
I’m always so grateful that I can be privy to these incredible conversations. I’m also amazed that I can follow them most of the time!
Really looking forward to “We who wrestle with God”
- Jacob…
Dr. Peterson, thank you for your thoughtful and well articulated words. I am looking forward to see you live in Berlin, Germany at my 30th birthday. I did not think I could come, but finally managed to. I have a masters exam for my degree as hearing aids professional at the same day! I am driving 4 hours to see you :) You are a true inspiration to me and, mostly without them knowing, for the people around me. Through your wisdom my life has changed drastically. I am so thankful. Have a great day Dr. Peterson, best wishes to you and your family.
:)
It's clear to see that Jordan and Jonathan love each other and enjoy these conversations.
I feel like this conversation fueled my heart, brain and soul.
Beautiful conversation. Thank you Douglas Murray for the questions I wish I was smart enough to ask.