The Delicious Baguette of Failure: Why French Luxury Cars will NEVER Succeed
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 พ.ค. 2024
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Today I drive a Peugeot 407 Coupe and ask a simple question - why is it when the French make something nice, nobody buys it?
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#Frenchcars #Peugeot #407coupe
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An E46/5 has great steering Jay. It's got a faster rack than the standard E46.
Perhaps due to it's shorter wheelbase?
@@larryjimbob I will try one again but I am doubtful it's that much better
@@JayEmmOnCars I'll admit that the the rear view/lights are a bit awkward looking but I personally believe it's an underrated car. Always wanted the 325ti with that straight six but I had a 320td M Sport. It loved the back roads of the SW UK 😁
@@JayEmmOnCars What are the chances? Number 27 just covered the E46/5 325ti, watching it now 😂
Completely agree with tis analysis, but Peugeot did have a presence in USA but withdrew. Citroen's suspension was just too advanced for US Mechanics.
The 407 Coupé isn’t a bad looking car, but it’s predecessor the 406 Coupé was almost universally regarded as a thing of beauty (I think it was Clarkson who described it as “achingly beautiful”).
And the 504 coupe - mainly because they were both done by Pininfarina
I owned a 406 coupe for 17 years and I always turned my head to look at it's beauty when I parked up.
I think the 407 is a lot more than "not a bad looking car", it’s just that the 406’s pininfarina design set the bar way too high for what’s was supposed to be a normal middle class coupé.
@@l.a1532 Well the 407 Coupé suffers because of that hideous front end peugeot started to adopt with the 407. The 407 saloon and estate are horrible looking cars and the other frog mouth-ed Peugeots too. If the 407 coupé had a normal front like the 406, it would be much better.
Today in Manchester, I saw a Range Rover, a Bentley Bentaga and a Mercedes GLS. All were shiny black, with black windows and shiny chrome wheels. I guess that is modern luxury. What I don't understand is the new craze for matte paint.
The gangster chic. But it is pretty naff.
I am still befuddled by the love for these ugly bricks. 🤦
That's more of a Manchester problem...
@@chillingbing6937 Premier League problem?
Yeah, it’ll be looked back on like neon graphics on 80’s cars. 😂. The only time I thought matte paint was cool was back in the 90’s. A guy used a matte radar absorbent paint and a jammer to elude the police radar guns. At least in that application it served a purpose and made it kinda cool.
James, fyi: inventor of the V8 engine was a French man, Léon Levavasseur.
People really don't give the French enough credits in the engineering field
@@jlGenozzV As if the 'invention' is such an amazing thing which wasn't a question of time...
@@pistonburner6448 What have you invented lately?
@@LRSTGS Headlights for horses, sock belts, a sit-on vacuum cleaner,
@@LRSTGS Why do you ask? I hope you don't think that was a clever comeback. It was horrible and childish. Totally invalid.
But if I would want to disclose sensitive information on the internet I could list several inventions of mine, some already in use right now.
I think it's important to understand the French psychology too. Often, they are not wanting or even aspiring to be seen driving a Jaguar Land Rover, BMW, Audi or Merc like UK motoring journalists seem a bit biased to believe for some reason? They seek understatement not Power, different not generic, and of course tradition to buy French. In France the top 4 car manufactures by sales there is Peugeot, Renault, Dacia & Citroen. In UK most popular is VW, Audio, BMW & Ford.
Not quite true. There is a weird dichotomy. A real hate on luxury cars, but it's more like envy. A very French thing.
From the general public perspective, there is also an ambivalence. There is a real love of proper luxury and sports cars, especially 'vintage' stuff, even old French cars, and also a real hate of the ostentatious. It's a weird middle-class thing.
@@0bzen22 I'm french and envy is a plague over here.
I'm not even "wealthy" but this kind of behaviour is stupid.
Take care and enjoy your eventual visit.
French have huge envy, there is the pseudo "commie" mindset where they all need to be seen as poor living with little, just getting by... And you'll be a good person, other wise you are part of bourgeois class.
But underneath that they want that Benz s class. They are kings of keying fancy cars just from jealousy and envy.
If you love cars in France, people will be jealous, even if they have more wealth or bigger house...
Cars are demonized in France, there is so much tax on it...road tax, tax on horse power CO2 tax... This last one is so prohibitive a new golf R will have 20 to 30k tax on top of the brand new price....
That's why many sporty models aren't sold any more.subaru sti WRX civic type r ect mustang v8.
Policy in france is for tiny engines. Stellantis 1.2 pure tech...😂
Indeed french cars aren't sold in the north American market. And they won't adapt to a new market...
Renault had the safrane and Laguna V6 twin turbo 4wd. Tuned by hartge... Super cars that they never sold in the end.
As a French citizen and car lover, I tried to some good French cars in the last 46 years. I had a Renault 5 Alpine Turbo, a couple of Renault 30 (TS & TX), a couple of exceptional Renault Grand Espace 3,5 V6 (with a 245 hp Nissan engine) and more recently a Clio RS (1,6 l turbo 200 hp). The exceptional one was the Grand Espace (although it did drink a lot). The problem is simple and is very French: tax!!! And it is even worse today. To replace my 225,000 km (almost 150,000 miles) Land Rover Discovery 4, a new Discovery 5 would had a malus of Euro 60,000 to a price new of 100,000. That is a total of Euro 160,000! All attempts by French manufacturers (big ones or small ones) failed. When your home market is prohibited, then you simply can’t exist. We could make very good luxury cars with big engines but they would not sell in France. And what is the image abroad if you can’t sell a luxury brand at home? We had Hispano Suiza, Bugatti, Delage, Delahaye but that is a long time ago. Our governments have been hating the people who can afford luxury cars for 80 years or so. Result is a disaster. So I drive (second hand) 6 and 8 cylinder engines of my Mercedes Benz, BMW, Jaguar, Maserati and Land Rover and only regret my Renault Grand Espace with their Japanese V6. What a pity isn’t it?
You forgot Venturi. A french Ferrari killed off by politics.
@@rotteneffekt4416 That was indeed a superb car although the engine was of ordinary extraction (issued from the PRV V6). The interior had the touch of class of a Facel Vega, the handling was excellent too and the design equal to the best Ferrari. But without a national market, it could not survive. The revival of Alpine Renault is interesting but comes too late in the era of green Ayatollahs!
Agreed. Tax is what killed French luxury cars. Before the war France had some magnificent cars. Oh, the Citroen C6, when you opened the door the frameless window stabbed you. Somebody in the design studio didn’t notice this.
We are masters at taxes... In 2024 in France : Toyota GR 86 starting price with malus 93200€ !
I have never had an engine with more than 1.6 displacement (i am 39)... It's not an easy task to be a petrolhead here 😅
@@RenaudMi am sorry, how much? And I thought it being around 40-41k here in Hungary because of the 27% VAT is high…
My dad owned a Renault 25 executive. It was a beautiful car in its day. Had a voice warning for doors open and bulb failures. Which meant it was like a spaceship to an 7 year old me
That is an amazing car, bought a R25 from 1990 myself a few months ago, but they are super rare and it's so hard to get parts for them. Also as they had so many features for the first time the eletrics aren't good and all them have a lot of things not working, while my Safrane from 1999 has only a few minor electrical problems. So I have a lot of things which have to be done to my R25 until it will hit the road again, but I'm already super excited, bc it's my dream car and here in Austria where I live it's so rare that in all my 28 years I'm alive I only remember to have seen one Renault 25. Most people don't even know the car.
@flo_h_96
They were never that popular. He had his from almost new and did 250000 miles in it.
When I first became a mechanic we had a customer who had a r25 but the 2.9v6. Only 2 I've ever seen or known of
My dad had the predecessor, a 30TX as a company car in 1981, black paint, cream leather, electric everything, it had a 2.7i v6 and went like the clappers, would easily leave a Granada 2.8i. I liked it but dad didn't, he hated it and replaced it with 'another' Granada .
Yes ! My dad had the same one 😅 I have the same memory
That dash had this funny sunroof thing over the dials: very quirky! Also: very comfortable ride.
I own this car now. Must admit, I absolutely love the look of it with the slightly lower suspension and wider stance (also has wheel spacers on), but you're right about the suspension. I spend most of my time avoiding potholes instead of enjoying driving it. I cracked a wheel bringing it home
I used to have the Diesel V6 pre facelift.
I can hardly imagine anybody could improve the ride, unless doing everything and buying top of the line products. Which is rarley the case with these type of cars.
Still Miss my 407 Coupe, it became unfortunaetly a money pit
Revert it back to original and you will never understand why they thought changing it was a good idea.
I have 2l diesel Citroën C5. I bought it 3 years ago as my last chance to get a hydraulic Citroën. It has been reliable, driving it is so relaxing, and passengers comment how comfortable it is. I initially bought it to keep for about 3 years, but now I don't know what I would replace it with.
I'm currently restoring a 604 and trying to persuade my wife to let me buy a 504 coupe.
Ooooooo the 604 - my dad was a serial 504 man and I begged him to get a 604 - I just lived the styling - along with the big Fiats of the time I just loved the sharp styling - many years later as Peugeot stopped the 504 in the uk he got a Talbot Solara - god knows how I got into cars 😂😂
good choice, consider a venturi also
What condition is the 604 in?
Good luck with the persuasion campaign, Sir!
Is the 604 in Retirement 'Champagne Gold'? Whoops! I was thinking of the 605!
I wish that before they go completely electric, Citroen and Peugeot would make one last swan song for the big, luxury(ish) 2 door coupes with big engines (even if they have to borrow them from another manufacturer), cause let me tell you, back in the day both brands used to make absolutely stunning looking 2 door coupes.
They will never go fully electric. Unless they want to go bankrupt.
Being a part of Stellantis... there's PLENTY of big engines to use. V6 from Alfa Romeo Quadrigoflgofigofigofigofilio but what I would LOVE to see is a Lion that uses the Hellcat engine!
The petrol V6 engine assembly line at Douvrin (Française de mécanique/Stellantis Douvrin) was dismantled in order to build the 3 cilinder engines.
The V6 diesel was sourced from Ford/Jaguar/LandRover.
Maybe an FCA engine...
I used to have a Renault Laguna II 3.0 V6 Initiale, which was the top spec Luxury model with full leather and all the toys. Sat Nav, Auditorium sound system etc. It was actually a really reliable car. Never let me down, was super comfortable. And amazingly on long runs it did 40mpg without even trying. Downside was the bushes. Fun fact.... The Laguna II was the worlds first ever car to get EuroNCAP 5 Star. But it nearly didnt. To achieve it they had to fit far bigger and wider wheels than the chassis was designed for. The change in dynamics was such they it would eat suspension bushes every 4 to 5yrs.
Is that right! I knew there was something overly wallowy about it but didn't realise it was so specific 🤔
In answer to your question about a French V8, the Simca Vedette had a small capacity side valve V8, but wasn’t around for too many years.
I came to the comments to say "Simca Vedette!"
That was a Ford engine, unless I'm mistaken?
@aaronhussain3873 Built under licence V8s flatheads were used well into the 80s. A glut of crate motors were avaliable for sale a few years ago and can be bought. I forget studs original Ford I forget how many studs less on the later Army flathead 24 / 25 cast well into the 80s 1987. Vedette / Simca.
@@aaronhussain3873 Right!
I’ve got a huge soft spot for French coupes, and in particular Peugeot coupes; the 406 Coupe, 407 Coupe (even with it’s big mouth) and RCZ are all cars I like very much (plus the old 90’s Megane Coupe).
i had the 3 litre v6 406 coupe was bloody amazing to drive and now the rcz gt200 for the last 10 years amazing car.
I have a bit of a guilty lust for the French 4 seater CC, especially the late Renault Megane looks great.
Yeah! They all 'take my breath away....'
@@sjm.photos The latest 406 coupé with the 210 HP V6 is a beautiful car. Another success of Pininfarina (close to the Ferrari 456 design). And nicer than the 407 coupé in my opinion. That’s worth collecting and driving!
the 406 Coupe and RCZ are cool and what about the faux Aston Laguna Coupe!?
They needed to do the equivalent of Lexus or Infinity and create a separate brand. Just because French brands used to be luxurious a hundred years ago, doesn't mean that we now don't associate them with utilitarian, disposable models.
That was the idea of the DS brand
@@PJ-om2wqYes, but it was an idea. The execution of that brand though was mostly a joke unfortunately.
DS is such a weird brand, the DS4 has awful seats, horribly hard suspension and is boring to drive, literally all opposite of what the DS name should be.
@@kristoffer3000Don't forget most sterile petrol engine selection in the world prolly (as is French tradition). I thought here in Croatia and in Germany ppl are obsessed with diesel but French somehow managed to beat us in that. Truly impressive, just not a good type of impressive.
@@Miha23_ You don't like the 1.6 diesel in your big supposed luxury car?
16:13 Bugatti is technically ‘French’ and is sold in North America, but of course, that is a super, super low-volume brand.
There was talk that Nissan would introduce Alpine on Renault’s behalf however.
French imports are relatively common in Canada (on a super low-volume scale) - quite a few Clio V6’s, Lagunas, 206’s, and even Avantimes (!) here.
Bugatti is less French than Rolls-Royce or Bentley are English... or Lamborghini is Italian.
@@dlevi67 can say that about all cars now though.
@@SHADOWDAEMON666 Up to a point. French Bugatti completely ceased trading in the 1950s (only the aeronautical business was sold to Hispano-Suiza in 1963) before the brand was resurrected in the late 1980s in Italy, and then purchased by VAG in 1998. The "French" connection is extremely tenuous.
Rolls-Royce and Bentley are still manufactured mostly in the UK, and Lamborghini are made in Italy although they all use German parts (and German capital!)
Bugatti is Just AS much french, As Skoda IS cz, or Seat is spanish or in other words ITS all VW parts
Without the German man piech we wouldnt have Bugatti AS we know it
As a French petrol head, I can say we had lots of great cars, Hispano-Suiza, Delage, Delahaye, Avions-Voisin, Talbot Lago, Bugatti, Salmson, Chenard Walcker (had a OHV V8 of their own presented in 1933-34 late replaced by a Ford lump), Hotchkiss, Facel Vega... even obscurer ones like Gobron-Brillié, Cottin Desgouttes, Tracta, Sizaire Frères, Ballot, Léon Laisne...
We also had a couple of V12 with Voisin (C2, C16, C18, C20), Hispano-Suiza (J12) and Delahaye (Type 145).
DeDion Bouton made V8's... the very first one at that from 1909 to 1919ish. We had Ford/Mercury derived flathead V8's in the Matford (Mathis+Ford), after the war in the Ford Vedette(2.1l)/Vendome(3.9l) - Comete/Montecarlo and then without Ford partnership in many Simca, still a flathead but modernized (83HP compared to the previous 66HP for 2.3l).
The Simca Vedette had a huge success in Argentine where they made factory "hot rod" versions by copying the Ardun OHV conversion heads designed by Zora Arkus-Duntov (the father of the Corvette), in 1966, the old 2.3 (designed in the early 30's) made 140hp in the Simca Rallye EmiSul 6M (6 speed, a 3 speed box with high/low range).
We could have made it but the government made every decision possible to never let that happen, by giving control over the industry to communist unions after the war who were too numerous and organized to be trifled with and by making buying any foreign cars a luxury (as most countries did). Since then our brands were doomed to appeal to the the people who had no other choice but to buy them. There was no real competition nor incentive to do better, some tried (Facel-Vega) and failed because the government forced them to develop a French engine that would cost millions, was launched hastily, wasn't ready but money was running out and didn't appeal to the customers outside of the country...
I came here to just remind people of Bugatti. You did far more, but realistically Bugatti is the pinacle of luxury cars, which sort of disproves the title. France does make luxury cars-and insanely desirable ones that everyone wants.
@@EdwardNoble3 Yes, made by Germans (VW/Rimac) for Arabic princes...
Ettore Bugatti was Italian, not French and he established his factory in Molsheim/Dorlisheim in 1909... in the German Reich. (Elsass is a Germanic province, taken by the French in the late 1690's and retaken by the Germans from 1871 till 1918).
Bugatti's were among the best but no French was involved in making it happend.
When I'm at yard-sales, I ask if they have some part for an obscure French car. This gives me ideas. "Do you have (some rare part) for a 1954 Cottin Desgouttes?"
@@rvrmn2682 They stopped production as the great depression hit France in 32-33.
You mentioned Facel Vega - I have lusted after an HK500 for a long time.
I have a love of French oddness. A modern Alpine is on my list for cars I want in my life, as is the wonderful C6
The DS21/23 was technically, and certainly in terms of relative cost, a luxury car and quite successful in the UK.
The previous generation, 406 coupe, was a beautiful car. The 407 coupe didn’t quite match it but the 407 estate, with its panoramic roof, was a wonderful car to be chauffeured around.
I honestly like the 407 coupe more but thats my personal preference. Both are really beautiful
Pininfarina, beautiful. Worked for Peugeot when 405 and 406 launched and had both; supremely comfortable and very reliable.
@@flo_h_96 I agree, I have a 406 and 407 both coupé so I can compare them side by side. The 406 is beautifull, but 407 is more massive, masculine and agressive and I'm not even talking about the interior and comfort.
I'm not the kind of person to deify something because it has been made by a name. I've saw pigeons buying awfull 50 k chandeliers just because they wer designed by Stark.
Then also beauty is very subjective
American here
The French have been gone from the US market since the early 90s so no French cars have been sold for about 30 years
What did them in was their reputation for poor quality and reliability. It wasn’t just that they couldn’t compete upmarket against V8 luxury….they couldn’t compete downmarket either.
The only French car I ever saw on an American road, was the 1959 Peugeot 403 convertible driven by Columbo in the TV series.
Less so the poor quality and reliability, that was pretty much universal even in American cars of the time, its just when an American hears "European car" they immediately expect BMW, Mercedes and the like, and seeing as the Americans were not used to lower market european cars, such as Opels, VW's, European Fords and such, something like a Peugeot or a Renault simply wouldn't cut it. And the bit about the reliability and quality wasn't it either, it was the lack of any sort of dealership network, or getting parts from France, and if you did manage to get parts, you'd still find yourself lacking anyone who knew how to service them, since the French did not send in enough information. French car's offered a good package, but at the wrong price and to an audience that misunderstood it from the get go. Had Peugeot or Renault stayed till the 2000's when Volkswagen began to hold a larger stake of the market, they might have been able to come up with a successful French car for the American market.
@@anthonyharney2495 And I guess you've seen it often 😊
@@Hipas_Account VW is another company that can’t seem to do anything right. In the US market 2% is about all the market share they can ever manage. Maybe European and non-premium just doesn’t work here
@@Hipas_AccountFrench cars are ugly, slow and built like crap. That’s why they are no longer in the USA.
I was thinking yesterday James that part of your channel a big part of it is actually you !
And your journey with your own cars and your past cars like this one .
I agree. The best presenters are ones who get you invested - oftentimes not just in what they're talking about, but they make you invested in *them* as well. James could put out an hour-long video of him talking shite and I'd probably still be invested.
@@IndiBrony I’m watching from Australia and I personally just love the very English way James talks about cars and I like watching the English countryside and the little villages he drives through… on a note to James it’d be good if he did regular fleet updates so we can follow along and be more involved as viewers in what’s happening with the cars in his fleet , even if there’s no happening with a particular car .. keep us updated and involved please James … we love the drama it’s part of what makes you entertaining James !
And the biggest drama I’m holding out for is the engine drama of the S2000 , I’m gagging for more content on this car it’s my personal favourite 😍
Lexus didn’t take off until Partridge started pushing them with his leather driving gloves. Perhaps Peugeot need their own Partridge?
A Partridge in Paris...who's this cool customer...a look that says i'm in control of my vehicle
There are several luxury French cars that I always wanted as a kid. One of them is Citroen XM. It's a fantastic-looking thing. The other is the equally bewitching C6 (preferably with the V6 petrol or 3-litre V6 diesel), as well as Renault Safrane Biturbo Baccara. None of them were sold in Indonesia, though.
I had a 605 in 1991 and a C6 in 2010. French luxury cars are lovely companions when life isn't going as planned and let you put things in perspective. If they made a more cossetting, idiosyncratic, and luxurious RWD version of the C6, I would definitely consider one.
The Citroën C6 is one luxurious car.
It is made in China. The Facel Vega in the '60s had a V8 engine from Chrysler.
@@miguelflugelman3278 Wrong. Initial version was made in Rennes and were close to hand built with superior quality control compared to other French plants. Second version was what was built in China.
Jay, you're correct. The last time we had a French car here was in 1992, and it wasn't even badged as the Renault it was. (Eagle Premier)
I love how a Fiat 500 drove past right as you were talking about inexpensive Italian cars.
Before the Vel Satis and Avantime, Renault made the Safrane, which had a more conventional shape/styling for an executive car.
It was offered with a 3.0 V6, had a lot of soundproofing, and as is often the case with French cars, it packed a lot of tech for its time. My favorite feature was that the car would speak out any issues, e.g. it would say “attention, rear left door open” or “attention, seatbelt not fastened”, and that was available in a few languages depending on your preference.
There was also a rare biturbo v6 variant (only available with a manual though).
French luxury cars gain a moral victory for sticking to their oddball designs and no-compromise ride, even if they'll never win a sales war.
I owned a 407 2.7auto diesel coupe from 2008 to 2018, it was a terrific car. The only reason I traded it in was concern about its age and the fact that the diesel car I was once encouraged to buy was in danger of becoming a car I would not be able to drive anywhere. I switched to a VW cc for 3 years but found it lacked certain fixtures & fittings I had come to think of as standard like electric seats & mirrors. Now I'm back in a Pug again, a petrol 508 hybrid, this is also a lovely car but the sacrifice of 150 miles worth of petrol tank for a battery which costs£4.00ish to charge and gives me about10 miles in return is the economics of lunacy. Only a government could ever think that is eco friendly.
There was Facel Vega, the HK500, but that cheated a bit, it used a Chrysler V8
…my late father left me his 1958 Facel Vega FV4 Typhoon and whenever I take it out around The SF Bay Area it still gets a lot of attention.
@@skymuffn which engine did that model use?
@@tug1345 …it’s the 4 Speed manual 396ci Chrysler OHV TY6-Series Hemi V8
@skymuffn very nice, I wasn't sure if that one was the earlier 5.8, or the 6.3, but then I realised the 6.3 was called the typhoon, very nice car
@@skymuffn 392 HEMI with 2-4bbl carbs
Dad had a Peugeot 504 in the early 1980s. It was incredibly comfortable, and rugged... until it started rusting... thanks again for a lovely vid... great shirt as always
Thanks James, great video as always, reminded me of happy Peugeot days of my motoring past which started with a 504,:then a 405,:604 and 406 V6 Coupe which I loved, another car (one of several) that I now regret selling.
Owned 3 of these, 2 manual 2.2 petrols and a 2.7 diesel auto. I loved them. Lots of toys, distinctive and cosseting. Alas, the electrics were a real concern.
The “electrics were of concern” 😂😂😂😂…… because French!
mine never had issues with electrics tbh
must have had a good one😅
I seem to be an odd ball here.
My first car was a Citroen CX Turbo, I did choose it oven an Audi Coupe Quattro.
I owned a couple of french cars, including Citroen XMs, BX, Renault 19, Scenic and the 407.
Regarding the 407, I had a 2007 2.2 HDI sedan, that's the Bi-Turbo Diesel with around 180hp.
I did with it multiple trips to Europe, it's comfortable , does very good mileage on the motorway and overall I count it to one of the best cars I owned; and I owned over 40 😁
If it comes to comfort, French cars beat the Germans.
I had two Citroen CX, and even the XM is unique, quirky and surprisingly manages the right amount of sportyness (V6 24v Sport).
A Citroen DS is on my wish list - always liked them; another cool car I had but didn't owned was the 405 Mi16.
My first car was a BX. Amazing suspension, and a nice drive. Can't beat french suspensions. Until they started imitating the germans, that is, then they also became stiff rubbish.
I am the proud owner of a Peugeot 407 2.2 HDi BiTurbo sedan. And that monster simply slaps. Even in its standard form it gave German traffic a headache when I stepped on it. Subtly modified now, when I go through them. The shock on their faces, priceless. I wanted to get a new Peugeot 508 II sedan, but when I found out that that engine is not available and that the biggest one is 1.6 HDi, I was disappointed. Even when I was on a test drive, the lack of torque was felt. Although he had the speed. I have no words for the suspension. It reacts as it should react in any situation regardless of the conditions. And now that he wears good sports tires and better than the factory but still Bilstein shock absorbers. How to fly a plane. When it comes to durability and longevity. The only flaw or downside I have to say is the electricity. I simply have no words for the rest. As a young person I have changed quite a few vehicles. I will drive this 407 until the end. Otherwise, a wonderful and brilliant video. Greetings from Skopje, North Macedonia and I wish you a pleasant day and much success
😊🙏 Have neighbours that been driving Peugeot cars from fathers to children for many decades & once asked them why , they replied these French designed & engineered cars are more safety conscious with stronger crash-cage monocoque & installed with more fuel efficient smaller engines that can do the many jobs of bigger engined cars & they're stylish! Must drive them lovingly & maintain them earlier than stated with PSA Peugeot-Citroën AutoFrance Service Centres! There are still many French Peugeot & Citroën cars to be seen in the Middle East , South East Asia & in the African continent! 😊🙏
Pre-WW2, many French car manufacturers were actually at the peak of luxury. What happen was 1) lots of factories could not produce the same cars during the war; and 2) after the war the government requested that all manufacturers build cars for the common people to help reconstruct the country. That's why Citroën came with the 2CV; that's why Talbot and Simca started building cheap turds; and that's why the Panhard, Delage, Delahaye, Facel and co disappeared (terrible budget situation at the end of the war, and unable to create new cars from scratch).
The first ever V8 was the French "Antoinette".
The last French-made V8 was probably the Ford-derived 2.4L Aquilon engine in the 1954-61 Simca Vedette.
The Facel Vega did have a V8 in 1954, but a Chrysler unit. The last French V8 (ignoring concept cars) would be in F1 cars, and only there unfortunately.
What an intriguing question. Keep up the good work
Your essay style videos are very good and refreshing. Keep it up!
True. The French left the US market in the late 80s I belive.
Mid-70s for Citroen, late '80s for Renault, early '90s for Peugeot (although Renault have made a stealthy return via their stake in Nissan.)
1991
Alpine has been planning on launching in the US, although they have been saying that for a few years.
The Renault 30 was a breath of fresh air, and the 25 in first phase, V6i mode, honourable exceptions?
My first ever car at 17 was a R30 TX 2.7 V6i. It was a dream to drive.
@@dj_paultuk7052 - this one was lucky enough to drive a good friend's father's example a few times, back in the day. Loved it 👍.
25 baccara!
I’m working on my father’s R25 v6 1985 (gen 1) to take possession of it. Nice ride. Over 200 in Germany 30 years ago. Leather seats… nice real sized trunk… plenty of space around the engine to work on it. Great fun to drive anywhere. Real rear seats for grownups with space in front of the knees… I’m lucky it was garaged for 40 years…
@@xtophgerard1169 - wow! Lucky chap 👍.
In 1980, I was driving a Rover 3500V8 and honestly, there was no french car like that. I loved this car.
The first plane ever to fly in public, the 14 bis, was powered by a french v8. Also, Simca did produce a flathead.
There actually is one French brand in the USA: Bugatti 😉. Now, they are owned by a Croatian company after having been owned by a German company, but they are at least headquartered in France still. Otherwise, there are no French car presence in the US, although there is in Mexico.
I've just acquired a petrol V6 engine which I'm transplanting into my Fiat Scudo Van, just trying something different.
The L7X 3.0 V6 24v VVT ?. The plastic cam covers are a nightmare and no longer obtainable. They leak oil as fast as you can pour it in.
@dj_paultuk7052 Really...I'll keep an eye on that when I fit it...Thanks
Great review, James. Interesting to see a view on the bigger engine to my 2.2, you reviewed! Cheers
I had a 2004 Peugeot 605 2.2 auto and I loved it. The C6 was also another quirky motor
Fordson Major tractor, last made in 1951.
5:05 That's actually a Fordson Super Major - with the orange wheels, it was made from 1961-1963.
I found this channel recently and have become obsessed. Excellent viewing!
He's very good.
Aww thanks you guys
@@JayEmmOnCars Can you do a video on Peugeot legendary ride comfort and their use of factory made shockabsorbers till Sochaux plant closure in 2012?
Excellent, Jay.
Very interesting and I really enjoyed it.
👏👏👏👏
Very interesting analysis, thought provoking. Thanks.
The French copy no one and no one copies the French
French cars haven't been in the US since 1991. It's been quite a long time.
There would seem to be niches in the US market for other manufacturers now that the Big 3 no longer make normal cars. Ford: Mustang, GM: Corvette, dodge: nothing, Chrysler: nothing, FIAT: 500e/x. diesel cars: last available in 2018.
@@r2dad282normal cars sell significantly less than not-normal cars. And the cars that do sell are dominated by the Japanese and Koreans in volume due to their price/reliability. There’s no market. It’s dead or saturated.
@Rudenbehr There is a market, but marketing numpties have convinced management that everyone must be in the premium segment. So now there are few new vehicles under $35K, which is now the sweet spot now that we no longer have free money ie 1% interest rates.
@@r2dad282 Japanese/Koreans dominate that. At best, the French would find themselves in the same place as Volvo. Can't blame car makers for chasing what people are buying (that also wouldn't sink their business margins).
@Rudenbehr But auto makers aren't even doing that. They are chasing EV sales not because of customer demand but because politicians dangled government credits and threatened them if they didn't make EVs. Too bad the Big 3 lose $20-$50K on each EV they make.
In the 1930s Citroën made a Traction 22cv with a V8
It is a mythical car that was finally not marketed mostly because of the war.
Only a very few numbers still exist . One is used in Holland by a collector.
It was supposed to be Citroën flagship after the 15 cv 6, straight 6 cylinders .
But, Citroën could not afford to carry on.
There is a short Dutch video on TH-cam..
Great video. Very informative! Going into it, I didn't expect to learn so much about post WWII history of the automobile (taxes, French attempts at luxury, contrast to Americans...). Thanks!
My 405 had so many electrical problems (including a breakdown on the way to catch a ferry) that my head has ruled my heart ever since and I’ve avoided French cars for 40 years.
funny that my dad had a 405 td and it did 675000 miles and never missed a beat never had any electrical problems
My Renault Laguna III from 2009 so far never had any electrical problem and the cars of my father neither. My Renault Safrane from 1999 has a few electrical problems, but mostly only things which aren't relevant and also it is 25 years old I think every car that old will have some electrical problems especially with all the features that car already has and all it's sensors which not many cars had at that time
You must have been one of the most unlucky owners. It’s the 2nd last Peugeot I think (last being 406) to have sold massively in Africa, Iran, LATAM. The old Peugeot legendary comfort and longevity before Toyota firmly took up that role.
The 2.7 hdi diesel v6 that is in the 407 was also used by jaguar+land rover. I read once that the simca had a V8 in the
Simca Versailles V8. could not found out if it was a simca development.
No I think those were Chrysler V8s used by Simca.
@@clemsiemckenzie9799Engines designed in the United States by Ford
@@clemsiemckenzie9799 Simca bought the french division of Ford in 1954, inheriting the 2nd gen Vedette from them. Therefore the Simca 2.2 and 2.4 V8 are actually developments of the 1937-1940 Ford 136 Flathead V8. Interestingly the engine was redesigned in 1964ish by the brazilian arm of Simca with hemispherical cylinder heads and overhead valves. Just a few years before Simca was taken over by Chrysler.
@@pilou827 No, officially the AJD was designed by Ford at Dagenham......BUT had a lot of input from Peugeot Citroen concealed from the public. In fact an unsubstantiated story has it that the original blueprint had been done by PSA for a 2.5 V6 diesel engine, which was the basis of the 2.7V6 AJD. There is a lot of circumstantial proof of this theory. By that time Ford's best effort of a diesel engine was basically a "tractor" which was also an evolution of an engine copied from PSA. At the same time, PSA was already at second/third generation sophisticated twin turbo diesel engine.
@@vs6300 Sorry, but my answer was about the V8 engine used by SIMCA in 1955😉
Idrive a 2003peugoet 406v6 210bhp thanks from NewZealand its so smooth a joy to drive and looks good 😊😊😊😊😊
Very particular for someone who doesn’t put much work into his own build quality
one of the most beautiful cars ever created
I had a Renault 14 TX years ago. Brilliant car, very very comfortable, quite rapid and went round corners very well - on all four wheels and two door-handles!
I had a Peugeot 406 estate V6 automatic. Fast and excellent. Citroen's C6 was nice too. So, not all bad
Very interesting video James, and I largely agree with you on why french luxury cars don't seem to succeed, but I gotta say, the exhaust note on this example is the best sounding diesel I have ever heard (from one now envious Skoda Superb TDi owner). Cheers!
So it's got a Ford/ jaguar engine
Put really simply, I believe PSA did most of the bottom end on the 1.6, 2.0, 2.2, 2.7, and 3.0 diesel engines that Ford Europe and PSA used at the time, while Ford Europe did most of the top end.
Jaguar ones are a slightly different derivative of those base engines I think, particularly later ones like the 2.2 seen in the facelift XF.
After that was over, Ford went their own way, while PSA partnered with BMW, which was a disaster.
As a American I do find it a bit confusing why you talk about how Americans viewed cars and French cars. When it comes to French cars reputation we simply don't matter. It has been decades since they were last here.
I don't see why our perspective and opinions matter compared to what other markets think. I feel like what Europeans think was much more valuable and affected them much more significantly as they were more dominate there. We don't care what French cars are doing and the French automakers shouldn't care either.
I highly doubt that will change anytime soon. The American division of Stellantis is struggling a lot with hollowed out brands and offerings. Adding French brands here is just dumb.
Also Toyota is not one of our most popular brands. It literally is THE best selling car brand in the United States. Many of us abandon American brands. They have been in decline for years. No mainstream European brand has ever taken off here. Even VW is definitely a third rate hack if I'm being brutally honest. They don't offer anything at all you can't find from American, Japanese, or Korean brands. They were here before most other import brands and fell far behind. Even the Koreans are doing better.
The French left and Fiat was never even a player. In term of mainstream more affordable cars.
More premium European brands are another matter entirely. They have had a much greater impact on what Americans desire in my opinion. But they are definitely earned a lease and throw away appliances status.
James is simply musing about the potential that French luxury cars could've had in America.
Honestly, there’s so much to unpack here that he could’ve done a video for three hours
BMW Mercedes Audi all compete in the US market. The French have no chance competing until they sell cars on BOTH continents. Economy of scale and all that. That’s the reason why the US market is relevant to the discussion. Until the French figure out what it takes to sell in the US market they will NEVER be able to compete with the German brands.
Thank you. I enjoy the different stuff and French is refreshing. Totally agree, judge steering once you have driven a Lotus.
Wait a minute. There is one French-built brand you can buy in the USA - Bugatti.
Where are their dealerships?
They make some 7 cars a year, not exactly a relevant brand within the automotive world.
Just lovely ❤.. excellent content as always 👌
That is a very elegant car, I live in France and have done for the last 22 years and don't recall ever seeing one, however my first French car I owned when I was 20 years old in Australia, was a Renault R10 which I picked up from the factory in Melbourne, now that was quirky but I loved it, now it has been here a succession of cars like Fords and a Jaguar X Type.
I love your reviews of cars like this James. You’re filling the void left by old school Top Gear 😎
Current owner of a manual 136 hp 2.0 hdi coupe, nice to drive suspension is better lowered on one without the electronic shocks , doesn’t affect it to badly
I had a 406 estate, was a cracking car, loved the 90s styling, but modernly (and very well) equipped car, wasnt even top spec, but had dual zone climate, sat nav (terrible sat nav, but it was a 53) auto lights, wipers etc. loved it. only got rid because a lovely van driver rear ended it
Cheers! When a teenager my friend's dad had a Renault 25 V6, that to me at the time an incredibly luxurious car!
DS Automobiles. Im a Canadian that rented one last summer. Boy, i loved it. Nice luxurious PHEV with wonderful handling and performance.
I loved my C6. When properly maintained it was superb.
Had the Renault avantime paugeot RCZ and absolutely loved them both. They were different to all the other cars and fun and great to own. Living in London now and don’t have a car because there is no need because it takes forever to get anywhere in a car. Loving the videos 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
I had a 2.0 Avantime for 3 years and it was an absolute pleasure to own. The family and I loved it and I do miss it.
`Baguette of failure` love that 😂...I have worked in the motor industry for 35 plus years, French cars just do not stir the soul, have not done since the early nineties, but i do like the new alpines... Alfa gtv 3.0 on my drive, which i love, will stick with my italian baby thx.
Over a decade ago, when my parents needed a comfortable car with loads of luggage space, I found them a used 406 estate. Drove it a couple of times myself: super comfortable and better steering feedback than most current cars. Reliable too! That said, I drive a Benz now, lol.
I've had my petrol V6 407 coupe for a couple of years and I love it, it's just crazy how much car you can get for a few grand. Plus the coupe looks quite different from anything else on the road which is nice, I haven't seen another one on the road during the time I've had mine so it must be pretty rare, especially with a manual gearbox like mine
I've driven a couple early-mid 2010s BMW estates and while the 8-speed autos and xDrive and other systems are nice to have I still think the ride quality is much nicer on the 407 and the cabin is much quieter thanks to the double windows
Lovely old ramble James.
Many thanks.
I agree, convert it back to standard suspension. Also, spray some black paint on those calipers while you're at it. Just stick it in drive and burn up some péage.
On the subject of e46 steering: Z4m front excentric control arm bushings and a new steering coupler make all the difference in these cars.
I loved the cameo appearance of your BX. This was my first car, bought for £500 in 1993, a BX GT in the very same colour as yours... now very rare, pity I sold it... fond memories! ... do you have a video of your BX? I'd love to see it!
I had a 1986 Peugeot 505 back in 1999. I'm in the Midwest, USA. And when Peugeot left in 1991, parts became an issue. Some people never even heard of it. It's funny many years ago if you said Korea was going to have a luxury car brand, people would laugh, considering how Hyundai started here in the states. I ended up selling the Pug for a Saab 900. Great video as always!
I am American but was stationed in Japan for a few years. I remember seeing these here and there in Japan and loved them!
Item one: a BIG factor in the UK market is badge snobbery. Despite Citroen and Renault building some interesting models (Vel Satis for example), too many people turn their noses up at a non-German badge, unless they can afford a Jaguar, Aston or Bentley/Rolls-Royce. Though Lexus managed to cut through that in part by adopting the approach "Let's build an even better Mercedes S-Class for 70% of the money, and make it last into the bargain". Once word spread, Lexus got their foot in the door and never really looked back.
Item two: your point about small engines is indeed a major factor. Though dig deep into history, and the French also gave us Facel Vega. Who put a honking big American V8 into a saloon car around 1960, which made it more powerful than a Ferrari - 355 hp in the Facel II made it terrifyingly quick in its time. Though that brand died for different reasons, despite having celebrity owners (Joan Collins had one, for example). Though as you point out, trying to find a home built French V8 is like looking for unicorn droppings.
By contrast, Toyota once put a home made V12, no less, in the Century (the second generation G 50 version, along with the contemporary limousine for the Emperor of Japan). Yamaha also built V12 F1 engines, and put a V12 in the experimental OX99 supercar. Lexus stuck a V10 in the LFA that has an utterly orgasmic engine note, but I'm having trouble finding a Japanese V8 - bit of an odd gap in the engine lineup there?
Item three: yes, technology has been a double edged sword for the French. The Citroen-Maserati SM you mentioned was a technological tour de force, but even rich playboys objected to paying Maserati prices to service a car with a Citroen badge. If Citroen had been able to choose a larger, less highly strung (and cheaper to mend) engine, the SM might have weathered the oil crisis storm. There's also the underhand way in which the USA kept it out via legislation banning those swivelling headlights, thus depriving Citroen of possibly their most lucrative market for something that had a "car of the future" aspect to it.
Now, however, rich American car collectors looking for something out of the ordinary, are scouring the globe for DS19s, especially the rare and gorgeous "Décapotable" convertible models, which command sky high prices.
Hi James, great review and it got me thinking that I’d love to hear your thoughts on the Citroen C6.
Most enjoyable car I ever owned was a 406 Coupe with the 3.0 V6 petrol engine.
The 407 is a legend.. I love everything about it.
I always wanted a 407 Coupe. Just never found myself in the position to buy one. Gorgeous looking car.
The Lancia Thema 8.32 is a car that deserved more recognition in it's day. I like French cars but my favourite was the my first and slowest car I have ever owned. It was a Citroen 2cv. It was such a fun little thing that always left you smiling. I'm grinning now just thinking about it 😊
The Thema 2.0 Turbo gave basically the same performance as the V8….. there was also a V6 petrol in European markets with a non-Fiat/Alfa engine (PRV ?).
@@johnmoruzzi7236 But the turbo was a different driving experience because of the engine and no way can you get the 4 pot to sound as nice as the Ferrari V8. I personally think the 8.32 stands out a lot more as the one to have.
@@ivordavies1828 Actually the interesting thing about the Thema 8.32 was that it DIDN’T sound like a Ferrari V8… the engine was built by Ducati with a cross-plane crankshaft (like American V8s, Triumph Stag, Rover…) so it had the rougher burble, it wasn’t a revvy screamer like a sports / race engine, it had more grunt for easy performance.
@@johnmoruzzi7236True. So sound like the ferrari v8 as built and used by Maserati and Alfo Romeo. The point was it was not going to sound like a sporty V8.
I would love to see more quirky french cars!
The second car I owned was a Peugeot 405. Fond memories of that car.
Jay we need a review on a Renault Laguna 2008-2012 model. Great forgotten french coupe!
First time in a 604 as a kid (dad was a peugeot dealer)...wow. the ride. The beautiful suppleness and handling balance.
Later I had a Renault 25GTX. Which was so quiet and relaxed to drive.
Traded a citroen cx25...nice. the hydropneumatics were a pain tho.
They did great large cars. Just noone wanted them.
Still looks a great looking car, I love coupe cars, also surprised your on a test and it’s not raining ☔️
Talking Peugeot, the first batch 405 SRi (before the body upgrades on later cars) was a total pleasure to drive. To this day I haven't driven anything with a such precise steering and that mostly tells how lacking my experience is, but still. It was instant, no play whatsoever. It was a really nice example with some shortcomings and had been parked for a while. I guess the tires were some old budget ones and the steering was still like a dream.
My friends bought it solely to race it at some grassroots stuff and the lovely dark interior was ripped out immediately. I am still kicking myself, because that car would have been a real pleasure being a dedicated driver. Instead, the one who paid for the car then bought a god awful 1.6 carbureted bottom end version with gray interior and added a... eye-challenging DIY body kit with some 17" alloys and a of course a... heavy sound system. AFAIK, it didn't even have power steering. Being a dedicated driver in that one was... challenging.
I had the 3.0 V6, 6 speed manual petrol 2007 model ,but the head gasket went and had high mileage and various other issues sadly scrapped it last year
Well done, James. You've made excellent points, the offended notwithstanding.
I think that French cars are wonderfully quirky and individual and innovative when they want to be, but if French brands want international success, and yes the US is a very lucrative market, they need to build models that have that international appeal.
The moment they build cars with an even more international appeal thwn they already do, bc they did change a few things already, which is not to my liking, they will lose their long term customers and me as well. The modern Renaults which I still love design wise aren't anymore what Renaults used to be when it comes to ride quality and comfortableness of the seats. If they change some other things in the interior when it comes to usability they are not french anymore, but some generic boring unpractical cars as the Germans or something and me as well as the french people and many other people would leave the brand
I bought a 508 a year ago .very low mileage . been great and I plan to keep it a while longer...I also like the look of this car...