If Your Aircraft Engine Fails After Takeoff.. Can You Survive?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ต.ค. 2021
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I set out to see if the so called 'Impossible Turn' is actually possible. Before takeoff I normally brief that I will only attempt a return to the runway if I have passed through 1,000 feet. But can it be successfully executed at a lower altitude? The answer is in the video.
Enjoy the flight!
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All pilots should know "A Possible Turn" from An Impossible Turn". I have a formula for small singles Turnback Maneuver. The 777 Turnback Rule. I taught aerobatics and 2 kinds of turnbacks in my 1990's CFI years. 4 kinds of EFATO and partial power too.
For heavier singles i have The 999 Turnback Rule for heavier singles. Use this formula i used about a hundred times to teach EFATO Turnbacks when CFI. It works well. I have 3 engine fails on take off on Cherokee 180 and all i landed back with no damages ever.
FOR TOTAL ENGINE FAIL Use the 777 EFATO Turnback Rule for light singles. The 999 rule is for heavy singles.
The 777 rule can be done even when on preflight or driving to airport. Will I be able to climb over 700 fpm? Yes? Are the winds over 7 knots? Yes? Then mark the altimeter to 700 agl for EFATO turnback. THE 777 TURNBACK RULE NO POWER- FOR LIGHT SINGLES.
Between me and my 1990's students we had to do 4 turnbacks due bird strikes, loose engine cowls an engine problems on take off. 4 airplanes saved i know. iGNORANCE of Turnback turs is not the solution, IGNORANCE is the problem.
Enjoyed the video. One thing I would say is that when you practice the impossible turn, there really should be a 3-5 second startle factor pause after closing the throttle and before turning back. If it happens in real life, as an engine out did to me, you are going to have a couple of seconds of what the hell is going on....When you were practicing it you were starting the turn even prior to having the throttle completely closed. Brian Schiff has a worksheet that when you follow what he says it will give you a pretty accurate altitude at which you should be in order to make this turn possible in a real life type setting.
The point is more that if you start your turn while being at 500 agl, you may be able to make it. The engine may have quit at 800 agl in this case, you loose 300 ft realizing the engine has quit and start the turn at 500 agl. That s what matters: Knowing the height needed to make it. Including 3 to 5 seconds in low alt engine loss training makes no sense. It does tho at higher altitude and as you know actually required during the checkride. But in this case it is just a matter of knowing how many ft you can make it or not.
@@StefBelgium in sr22 cirrus world you are just pulling caps at 500 agl
@@weiniesail Actually as per Cirrus training, CAPS deployment in case of engine failure near a runway needs to be put in balance between the ability to make the runway or not. Even at 1,000 AGL, the pilot needs to judge the ability to make the runway vs the risk of over run the runway, landing too short or loss of control vs the risks associated with deployment of CAPS. In a G5 the minimum height at which the CAPS can be deployed is 560 ft.
You can’t use an altitude to determine a safe turn back.
At high DA or with a heavy or underpowered aircraft, your departure angle will be too shallow-perhaps even shallower than your best angle of glide.
With a steep departure angle and a significant headwind, you will actually overshoot.
This is far too complex to work out. Destroy the airplane and save yourself. Even flying directly into a timber frame house is more survivable than impacting the ground after a stall or spin.
@@weiniesail and total your plane?
This procedure REALLY SHOULD be renamed 'THE HIGHLY INADVISEABLE TURN'
😂 yes
Love watching you do things that are almost never done / shown. keep the great lessons coming and #takeoffs=#landings
Love to see each step you complete from arriving at the airport eg flight planning, weather, pre flight checks, walking out to aircraft, check around aircraft. Including tips that u wish u had known when u took your ppl?
One tip per ppl exam would be great too!!! :)
In my PPL checkride the guy gave me a 400 feet engine failure on a go around. It was on a Neiva P56 - it's a brazilian copy of the Piper Cub, basically - so I was able to turn around and land with no problems. I would never have tried it if I was on a Cessna or a Cherokee, though... On a second note, I always like your choice of soundtrack! É nóis, mano!
Razor edge- that impossible turn...no room for error, too many variables to cause you to crash...but you made it look sooo smooth!!!
All pilots should know "A Possible Turn" from An Impossible Turn" I have a formula for small singles. The 777 Turnback Rule. I taught aerobatics and 2 kinds of turnbacks in my 1990's CFI years.
Thank you for the wonderful video. Not too many instructors out there that will attempt to teach the impossible turn. I have been an instructor since 2007, and have been teaching the impossible turn since May of 2011 to all of my students. The original article on the Impossible Turn came from an article from Captain Barry Schiff, who is a contributor to AOPA. The first IT maneuver is to see how much altitude is lost doing a 270 turn to set the pilot up for a turn to final, assuming you can get back to the airport. The second IT I teach is the 180 degree turn and the dynamics of a tailwind landing and aerodynamic drag for best glide. A very important factoid is where the wind is coming from and how strong, which you showed in a very concise example. Next is obstacles on the turn back. Sometimes the IT is not an option. This practice makes us all better pilots. Appreciate all you do sir.
Great man! Appreciate your input and thanks for watching!
When experiencing a real engine out, remember to stop the prop. It will add extra glide and compensate for the startle factor. Tailwind is an important factor so it should be part of your emergency self brief. No headwind on takeoff gives you a lower angle of climb. That said, it should be part of the curriculum. Well done Lewis!
No. Don’t stop the prop.
1) Unless you have a Rotax or similar engine, it’s not going to stop at best glide.
2) In order to stop a conventional direct drive engine, you have to go very slow. Perhaps slower than the 1G stall speed in a ballistic arc. Any advantage you would gain would be lost and then some with all of that maneuvering and sub optimal speeds and profiles unless it was a far longer glide than what you would experience in an impossible turn.
3) The risk of losing control of the aircraft is that much worse when trying to fixate on something like that.
Pulling the prop adds significant glide distance, it's amazing.
@@Bartonovich52 this is completely incorrect. I own my own aircraft. You are misunderstanding the phrase he used. It's not about "stopping the prop" it's about pulling the prop lever all the way back to feather the prop.
It takes literally 1 second and reduces the blade angle of the prop against the wind. All of a sudden the high drag is gone and you extend your glide distance by hundreds of feet. I do it in real life all the time when I practice this.
Great demonstration. It’s been drilled into me never to turn back so I think I’d take too long deciding on those factors!
LewDix proving nothing is impossible (pending skill level & favourable conditions). We are just coming out of COVID lockdown in Melbourne, AUS and I start back to lessons next week, was just about up to simulated engine out landings before suspending lessons, so this was perfectly times to give me some things to think about before I get back in the sky! Great content as usual!
Just started my flight training and I always love watching your videos, also funny the admissions manager for ACademy of aviation Rominy mentioned you and I said oh I love his way of teaching wish he was in New York
Ah that's cool yea she was my recruiter at Silver Airways
One thing to keep good in mind is also weight. You here are very light because it was only you on the plane. During my instruction time in Italy I was taught to do the turn back to the runway at lease 700ft AGL. Making the impossible turn possible. Great video! Love your content mate
YES! I just did these again today with a student and we talked about the weight difference.. Thanks mate!
Here's how I do it with a self-launching sailplane on an non-ATC airfield, probably not practical for most of the subscribers of this channel:
The idea is to make the impossible turn (or as much of it as possible) while the engine is still running.
After takeoff, maintain runway heading while it is still possible to land straight ahead, on my home field this will typically be somewhere around 1/3rd of the runway remaining. Then turn 45°, to the downwind side, if there is a crosswind component. (This is the beginning of that awkward 15 -20 secods time window when the only option is to crash into the trees. The decision to do that is made well before the flight, and I just hope that in a real engine failure I'll be able to resist the temptation to try to turn back.) By the time I reach the end of the runway, I'll have enough of lateral distance to turn onto the reciprocal and be on the centerline. If I can make even 1/4th of this turn before the engine quits, I have made it. If, against all expectations, the engine continues to run, I'll continue the turn 45° to join the downwind (from the inside). If the engine quits before safe altitude, I'll be able to do an s-turn to land on reciprocal, a little later I can do an abbreviated circuit to the original runway (landing long), and eventually I'll be high enough to do a proper circuit and stop worrying.
Another great video! Congrats on 50k. Well deserved. Any prep advice for UK PPL? First lesson in a couple of weeks.
Thank you! I suggest having a read over the aircraft manual for the type that you will be flying. If you know a little bit about the plane, you will impress the instructor and you'll be ahead of the game.. Enjoy!
@@LewDixAviation much appreciated. As it's a 172S I'll be sure to tell the CFI that the wings are in the wrong place.
Love this Lew dix great video
Thanks!
Watch from Canada but love your videos
Thank you!
Great vid. Love the approach of not challaging the uncertainty.
How did you attache the camera on the right wing?
Best from Germany
It’s unlikely that you’ll be climbing out at Vx when the engine quits… For the typical ‘impossible turn’, and any hope for success, you’ll have to make a diving steep turn then establish best glide so you don’t waste any time/distance with a standard rate turn and you’d better have an alternative plan if you don’t have the airspeed or altitude to make the runway. A sketchy decision at best. More times than not, you’d be better off making an off airport landing straight ahead and into the wind
If you're climbing out at higher than Vx you have more speed to play with in the turn. Yes it's risky but it can be well practiced (carefully) so you know where you can do it at. Really depends on the planes capabilities. A 200 HP can climb very steep at Vy so it's easy to get back to the runway as you'll be so close to it (maybe even still over it when you get to 500 AGL.
Nice video. How do you account for the natural human reaction time in situations like this?
Beautiful video once again!
Thank you!
Congratulations on the 50k!!!!
Thank you!
Cessnas can make the turn at 110 feet AGL or above from 2 miles out. But you’re flying a Piper. Good luck!
A well executed field landing is better than a sketchy 180 and runway landing
If there is a perfect field available, possibly. The 180 should be part of all takeoff emergency briefing dependent on wind conditions, the airfield and what lies around it. If it can’t be done safely and there are alternatives: land ahead 30 left to 30 right.
It’s something I would reserve for when there’s no good options in front of me. For example departing from a densely populated area.
It always depends. Especially on how high you are and how far away from the runway. Also are there obstacles around?
Not every airfield got a good landable field ahead. As the others already stated always do a briefing on whats the best option befor the flight.
What camera do you have mounted on your wing??
What was your angle of bank with the tail wind vs headwind? Great video. Thanks
I genuinely don’t recall. I was really interested in if I could make it or not, but I can do this again and take note of more things!
50K Congratulations!
Thank you!
Brilliant
Just became a member was fascinated by your time in the pa28r arrow as I just bought one, any more content in that to let me get to know my plane better would be awesome... I am in the UK so the weather is a bit crappy right now :-(
Thanks for joining! I’ll be on the hunt for another arrow to record in 😉
@@LewDixAviation come to the U.K. and you can use mine :-)
I believe the impossible turn is something good to be aware of and practice with an instructor, but a poor choice to rely on. If an engine failure occurs at altitude where do you look for a landing spot, to the right, left, or straight ahead most likely because you have a sight picture and can visualize an approach to that off-field landing. Trying to do the "impossible turn" at a marginal altitude means you have no sight picture or glideslope until you've turned 180 degrees and then you might find you have a terrible approach. Even having an altitude at which to turn back could be misleading. I fly a Taylocraft and the rate of climb is vastly different if it's just me or at gross weight, so at 1,000ft by myself might mean I'm easily close enough, while at gross weight and/or a hot day I'd be nowhere close enough to the airport.
You hit the nail on the head by mentioning the different conditions regarding weight and temperature. Of course there are other factors involved but on any given day and time, the situation is vastly different, so it's impossible to know if you can make it successfully or not if you haven't tried it first.
I've tried this in my Mooney, you can definitely do it but of course you need to know how well it works at different weights and DAs and winds. It is entirely possible to establish a safe altitude to do it at though. Just keep your speed up for whatever bank you are using. I don't like all the talk of the discouraging of the maneuver as it really should be taught in my opinion as part of the commercial ACS.
Awesome video. Any reason why you're sitting in the right-hand seat. Doesn't solo PIC not normally sit in the left-hand?
Thanks! I’m comfortable either side. Being a former first officer and current CFI, I’m well acquainted with the right seat
Great video. Fortunately never had a real engine failure, but regularly practice the procedure. Just a thought - how much would the drag from a stopped fixed - pitch prop be a factor in a real engine failure?
If the prop is actually stopped then it comes down way quicker than you've practised. A 10:1 glide ratio becomes more like 7:1 - the ones that try an impossible turn when the engine actually fails seldom come back to tell us about it, usually Dan Gryder or Blancolirio tells us about it.
olive branch ms had a student pilot do the impossible turn in a 172 at 700' agl
8:48 ok Bear Grylls haha
This was fantastic Lew!!! Thank you
Any chance you can do a mock oral PPL, give some tips on what to tab in the FAR/AIM or any general prep for the oral?
Nice vid but I think you've glossed over the turn back. It's not just a 180, it's more of a dumbbell shape and the importance of maintaining safe speed cannot be stressed highly enough. Plus once you've done it, you're now downwind with limited or no option of getting into wind if you can't make it back to the runway. I would suggest that this scenario is best practised at height in tye first instance, so you get to know both you and your aircraft's performance and limitations. And you must factor in the elements of surprise and disbelief that inevitably accompany a real engine failure... eg it doesn't always just stop, there may be noise, vibration, oil, smoke etc!
Lewis... so would it would be better to climb at Vx all the way to say 1000 AGL if you are taking off with tailwind? That way, there's less distance between your takeoff point and point of engine failure?
You should not take off with a tailwind.
I did this at a small grass strip north or Daytona called Pierson (2J8) pulled the throttle at 500ft waited 3 seconds then began the turn and made it back easily the name makes it seem much more daunting than it truly is
I had seen N32042 in soo many channels the plane should get an agent. Great videa as always.
But this is the channel that made it famous 😏
@@LewDixAviation No doubt about it. I seen it in 4 channels not counting the best channel - LewDix Aviation
Even with taking off with a tailwind on the climb out it'll push you farther away from the runway than taking off with a headwind so you would then have more distance to cover to get back. Or am I wrong?
Yes in theory it will take you longer to gain altitude with a tailwind and you’ll be travelling faster/further over the ground. All a recipe for disaster in case of EFATO
Neo your 100% correct
I did the impossible turn with less than 500ft (about 450ft) with a C172 keeping 65knots (max glide) and turning more or les 35-40º. I even had to put Flaps 40º because I was too high xD
So based on my experience, landing safely in a runway vs trying to land in a field (we don't have a lot available here in Mallorca)... I'd try it always if I'm at 500ft or above.
With partial power, or no passengers, ok. Not with passengers or no power from under 800 agl on a C172. See my channel for many done.
the only thing that bothers me about this ''impossible turn'' is, will you be able to react as quick in a real situation to get the nose down and start the turn immediately when the engine dies. you gotta add some startle factor here. In a simulated enviroment you know it's coming, you've probably briefed it on the ground, but in a real situation you will be taken by surprise to some degree. An engine will usually tell you when it's gonna die, but only a few seconds before it does and it will take you a minute to figure out whats going on. Even if you take-off in the mindset of my engine is definately going quit, if it does you'll still have that 'Oh shit, this is really happening' moment. I'm ok with the idea of attempting it from 1000ft agl, but, because of the startle factor, I wouldn't do anything below 800ft agl unless your on crosswind, depending how tight you fly your patterns. At the end of the day really you just have to eyeball it and judge if it will be possible in your specific situation, that's why I don't like encouraging low time students to do it, they might not have that judgement fully developed yet.
Whilst I completely agree with you, is this not exactly why we brief something? So that when it happens the reaction and decision making is instant. It’s almost as if you’re expecting something to happen before it happens. It’s going to reduce your reaction time greatly. Regardless I’ll be going out to test a delayed response and some other factors soon!
@@LewDixAviation Be safe though!
@@rdab700 It’s been recorded.. Am I sending this from a hospital bed? Find out soon lol
@@LewDixAviation if so it better be a damn king size!
What if you do the same thing but use Vy? Also try giving yourself 3-4 pause before turning. Like the sully movie try using more human factors.
I’ll be going back out to test that soon. Standby 😌
I think the main thing to do is practice and get to know your aircraft. If you know you should be ok from 1,000 feet you could set yourself a real world target of 1,200 feet. An engine failure over that height, you turn if it looks favourable. Below that height your landing somewhere ahead.
Luckly gliders are easier, a impossible turn can safely be done at around 300 ft
400ft is usually the go no go turn for me, depending on the area around the strip.
My instructor and I have practiced the impossible turn 3 times now. He only showed me the 1st time. Did 1 from 1000' and 1 from 500'. It's certainly not easy, but definitely not impossible.
It's impossible in some planes... in a 172 or PA-28.. no problem.. Try it in a A36 and you're dead.
That's awesome that he's teaching it to you. I will definitely be teaching it to my future students. (Almost at CFI!).
@@Kenriko didnt AOPA or Air Safety do it in an A36? There's TH-cam videos about it. My Mooney you can definitely do it. Why wouldn't an A36 be able to do it? Might take more altitude or higher speed but I'm sure you can.
@@Kenriko 172 can actually be difficult because some have such crappy climb outs. Takes too long to get to a good altitude
@@gringoloco8576 No AOPA said it was a no-go with the A36. It falls like a rock when you lose power and the speed makes it pretty far down range. Look into the North Perry A36 crash where the turn was attempted but ended up killing a child in a SUV along with the two pilots.
turn is still impossible i think because in real word situation pilot needs to cope with surprise, then trying to figure out what is going on, maybe solve the problem which will get him further and lower from the airfield
It's only impossible if you are too low for the plane you fly. It also depends on how heavily it is loaded, CG location, wind direction, wind shear, obstacles and maybe a few other factors. With one person and no luggage I can get the turn done as low as 250' with a little bit of margin left, that's with 27:1 glide ratio, not a cessna or a cherokee...
Yeah, cable break @ 600ft in a glider much more interesting lol. First two seconds are critical, no nose down, no live.
I think its worth saying that every time you're doing your lineup check etc. Expect an engine failure, say to yourself, when I takeoff, theres gonna be an engine failure, it'll help you with that startle factor and is always worth considering every time.
Absolutely. Great attitude
It’s SOP for the glider gang !
That ending of No Time to Die though.
Yep!
I think the other big important factor is reaction time. In this video you started turning as you were pulling the power back as you knew exactly what was happening, but in a real world situation I think you've got to allow at least a second or two to recognize what's happening and make the decision to attempt the turn. That's of course a second or two that you're traveling away from your runway and losing energy.
Stay tuned for another video like this with a reaction delay, coming later this month
@@LewDixAviation Ah nice, can't wait, love your videos!
I'm so happy that you finally learned how to procreate, that's huge!
I’m loving it!
Over here, if you mention the impossible turn during the oral for your flight test, you'll get auto failed. Our take off brief has a specific EFATO part stating do not turn more than 30 degrees from the runway heading and the examiners will ask the questions more than once, in different ways at different times to ensure you aren't going to try and turn back.
That said, the plane and runway will make a huge difference. A failure at 500ft on the current field and I'm putting it back onto the runway while at 1000ft, it is nearly a normal circuit given how the plane glides.
It’s one of those things that’s practical for pilots to know, however on a test you just answer what the FAA (or whatever government agency) wants you to say.
In the airlines we just say “cooperate, graduate” then when you get out on the line you learn little tips and tricks that are safer and more efficient.
Possible but improbable, the numbers show this, but never mind.
Takeoff/Landing on GRASSSS!! 😁😄
Haven't done that for a while! That would be good
Great video! I think the best advice for student pilots on the 'impossible' turn is: never attempt it if you haven't trained on it in the specific aircraft you're flying.
A lot of factors impact whether you can make it back, and from how high. As you found, you're more likely to make it back when taking off into a headwind. But also, if you're heavily loaded or its very hot outside, your climb gradient will be poor, and you may not be able to turn back from any altitude. Runway length is another factor. Additionally, in a heavily wing-loaded airplane with a high glide speed (e.g. a Bonanza) is unlikely to ever make it back, whereas trainer airplanes with low wing loadings (and low glide speeds) can often make it back from surprisingly low altitudes. Essentially, a successful turnback requires your that climb gradient is close to (or better than) your engine out glide ratio. Longer runways require less climb gradient than shorter ones because your liftoff point will be well before the end of the runway. You also have to make sure to turn promptly and with a decent bank angle, as in the video. If you attempt a turnback at a lazy bank angle, you burn up a lot of altitude.
So I hope everyone goes and practices it with their CFI, it can be a pretty fun guessing game, just like in the video!
Yes sir.. I think this is why it's so 'impossible' to determine whether you can make it or not on a consistent basis. There are so many different factors at play that it's a really difficult one to come to a definite answer on.
@@LewDixAviation A36 is just a No-go with it.. 182 is Iffy unless you're at pattern and even then you might be too far. The 172 or PA-28 will do these all day long with extra energy to spare. I've done it in a 172.. would not even attempt in my 182 unless conditions were perfect... thing falls like a brick when you chop the power.
Did the impossible turn at 500 AGL during PPL training with CFI. Quite the challenge but did it!
That was a normal turn rather then impossible. 1000ft is your normal base to final altitude. Dude started to turn before he even killed the power lol..
Normal turn on base to final is at 1,000 ft for you? lol…
You probably would have made the runway if you turned towards the wind, when you had a head wind. And you made the runway on the tailwind becouse of that. if you had turned to the right, you probably would not have made it. But yeah a really fine line.
Something I can go back out and test.
@@LewDixAviation Love your videos by the way :D
@@tomischimpf2646 thank you!
I wouldn’t do it below 1,000 feet.
Dude you missed the startle factor. Wait 5 - 7 seconds before you start the turn back.
7 seconds is a stretch, but I’ll be going back out soon to test a delayed response
@@LewDixAviation True. I’m 56 years old so give me at least 4 😜
For God sake people if the fan quits get the load off of the wings.
Dare you to try it again but delay any attitude/pitch changes for 3-5 seconds to account for the oh sh** moment. I bet your easy return would be not so easy.
Challenge accepted