I like your tip to take the controls when you want to say something to the student that they need to hear/absorb. Fantastic! I tend to use geometry first, THEN flaps when trying to hit the spot for power off accuracy landings.... I can dump full flaps when I know I have the runway made, then slip as needed to be in the flare just before the runway aiming point markings.
One other tool to add to the bag of tricks is the S turn. Many pilots get locked into a straight in final and get all jammed up trying to get down when a couple of shallow turns will add a lot of room to loose altitude. Also when doing an actual engine out, you should be aiming for the middle of the field so that if there is an unexpected headwind or more sink than you expect, you can still make the runway. It's better to go off the end of the runway at 20 than to end up short in the trees at 70. As usual, great video Jason.
I think S-turns are a terrible idea. Learn to slip, also if you speed up in the slip the drag increases by the square. Go get a glider rating and you will learn energy management.
@@JonathanStCloud-yo5oq s-turns at low alt and potentially slow are basically setting up conditions for a spin-stall accident if the student isn’t yet precise and coordinated for every turn.
A great tip to take the controls when you need the student to listen and absorb what you’re saying. I do this with newer students during full stop taxi back landings, so they can talk about their previous landing and I can give them info. If they’ve just landed and they are taxiing the plane they aren’t listening!
If you are descending at an angle/descent-rate that allows safe power off approach, then I guess you're relatively safe in the unlikely event that the engine fails during the approach
My instructor first taught me power-off landings for many hours. After that one day he asked me to descend faster and then progressively add some power during the final to control the glide slope. and approach speed. In a couple of hours I learned the power-on approach, I think this way of learning gives a much better overall feeling, for example I quickly learned to tune the power for landing without even looking et RPM.
You have a gift for instructing. Excellent work, sir! That tip about the taking the controls so the student can focus on what you are saying - brilliant! As a bonus, I bet it also helps you to be more conscientious and selective about which moments you pick to communicate, and thereby a better instructor. In my own experience as a student, I have missed many a well-intentioned learning opportunity when the task of absorbing the lesson shared “in the moment” fell by the wayside due to being fully preoccupied with the ongoing priority of flying the airplane; I heard the instructor’s point, but didn’t fully process it or retain it for long as it got crowded out by other thoughts. (I jointly fault myself for needing to be a more effective multitasker better able to deal with those moments, something I’m trying to improve upon.) Although we could (and no doubt did) revisit those discussions later, I can’t help but think this bit of advice would (and hopefully will) make the training experience just that much better for students like me. Kudos to you for sharing it, and also to every instructor who takes it to heart and implements it!
Yes, it's so task saturating to fly an airplane. I'd say about 60% of your attention is gone just doing that. So it's pointless to communicate important concepts in the airplane unless you unload that processor first! A tip born of experience for sure ... many many many students over the years.
Same here! I wish my instructor had done this. So many hours where there was no brief or debrief, just throwing everything at me while I was trying to do downwind checks, watch speed and altitude and listen to radio for calls. I know we need to learn to multitask, but not when every aspect of it requires intense concentration!
Also. New thing I’m teaching. If you want to go low, go slow. Just slowing 5 knots to let’s say 60knots IAS will turn a Cessna into a brick. Try it. Works like a charm.
I love power off approaches. I'm definitley going to show this to my students. The biggest habit I need to break with them is the hesitancy to turn that base early and just make it a real tight pattern just like you described. They always wanna have a downwind length equivilant to a powered approach and the solution is just to not add flaps until short final. I was orignially taught power off approaches every time. I think not teaching that way sort of handicaps students and limits understanding of energy management, but I work at a 141 school and they want everything standardized across the board with all the instructors. To inclulde a powered approach. 1500 rpm all the way down.
I don't agree with the statement being too high is as bad as being too low. There are ways to bleed off altitude (S-turns and flaps) but nothing you can do to add altitude.
Dude your teaching style and explanations are great. Simple, informative, give different perspectives, and you don't try to over complicate it with crazy technical terms that nobody will know in the beginning.
2 things you need to keep in mind. First the idling engine does create some thrust so with an actual engine out you will not be able to glide as far. Second your elevator may not have as much authority as it normally does which might require an adjustment to how you flare or more speed possibly.
Wow. those 3 points really boiled it down for me, specially in a situation where quick and assertive thinking is key. I really really like the the Tips for CFI’s here and there too!
My Army CFI made me cut power when I was even with threshold on downwind. Never reapplying power during base or final. It was to practice pilot dead stick touch down recognition. I still do it today. Kind of makes my patterns a bit small but what the heck.
And again another gem of Finer Points. I was initially taught power off approaches ibecause your practicing (in a sense) a forced landing everytime. Then my new crap PPL instructor started telling me to keep some power on into the flare. Totally counter intuitive ! Thanks again.
Thanks! yes, true. also possibly the football players :-0 ... If there were none, I think I'd try to land it on a slight diagonal to miss the goal posts. Or maybe I'm talking about the proverbial football field ,,,?
Question... on a recent Checkride, my DPE talked about the danger of the slip turning into a skid and the stalling problem with that (how on a slip the wing stalls to level flight, while the skid can stall you to unrecoverable)... I don't quite understand the physics and curious if you address that in any of your videos?
It has to do with whether the nose of the airplane is blocking the high wing (slip) or the low wing (skid). The reason slips are safe is if the high wing stalls it will drop to level, if you stall the low wing you will go vertical or upside down.
On the subject of football fields if you go diagonally you have about 400 ft. you really probably do want to go diagonally to because the goal posts are 30 feet high at the center of each end.
"Am I high or low, fast or slow". My instructor (Grandson of C.G. Taylor - inventor of Taylorcraft) says that too, but you're the only other CFI I've heard say that. Kind of curious where that saying originally came from.
At 4:10 yes exactly correct; Whatever you do the impulse to pull inside rudder has to be countered out by repetitive training; Trail-draggers not only love to slip to flare you have removed the excess tendency to just flight down to the end of runway; It just settles in like it was trained to do that To my horror some will even pull back on the yoke with inside wing low; We read about those guys at NTSB
I'm doing my Private right now, plan to go all the way to CFI. So my instructor is combining some lessons knowing they are coming down the road. I struggled with nailing my touchdown point on a squared off pattern. One day he said....Lets try a power off 180 "short approach"..... OMG, loved it....SO much easier. Pull the power at the numbers, drag the numbers level across a circle of motion and Boom...nail it every time. I was like " Why didn't you teach me that from the beginning?!" lol
I did my entire first training in an airplane doing purely power off 180, now, converting types, my CFI wants me to reduce to 1500, speed check, flaps to 10, and working a squared approach. I'm having a lot of trouble juggling everything. I desperately want my simple airplane back =( Power off 180 is so much better.
Chock full o good nuggets! I'm transitioning from a T-41 (C172 but with a bigger engine) to a Sklane RG. I'm struggling to get the airplane down or to slow my speed. I use the yoke and throttle well in the T-41 but can't translate that into the 182. You just made me realize I wasn't using the "geometry" or all of the airplanes tools (flaps full or some variation of) if I'm high on base. Thank you for this. One question though: Slips at full flaps are are frowned upon at my aero club, and it's in the T-41's checklist not to (but not in the 182's). Do you do "light" slips will full flaps, or only when less than full flaps. With a high wing, there's a tendency to wash out the tail with full flaps.
At 4:03 - you get into not banking the aircraft enough, GREAT advice! As a glider pilot and instructor, we teach 45 degree bank turns in the circuit, it is the most efficient turn when gliding. You will lose the least altitude for your course change. less bank angle and you take longer to turn (hence lose more height) and steeper, you are now sliding sideways, too much lift sideways. Love your videos BTW!
In the middle of my flight training to become CFI out of Livermore... would love to sign up for your mountain flying training camp-out , most likely next year, as I am strapped for cash this year .. will keep an eye out at Livermore for you/students in meantime. Cheers !
Consider not to pitch up for best glide. If you have an engine failure at say 100 kts and best glide is 65, it is best I think to keep the aircraft flying and let it decelerate alone. If you pull to bring it to the glide speed imidiately you momentarily increase the g to over 1 and this will cost some meters on the gliding distance you could achieve.
Dan Gryder say to never turn at all if any engine problem, even from 1k feet agl on a Cessna easy to turnback. To crash in front all times, NO TURNS. Really? LoL. I know 3 friends that turned back from as low as 300 agl with partial power and avoided crashing on houses and cars. he is FOS, the more maneuvers you know, the better pilot you are. Ignorance kills, practice saves
Thanks for this great video, and good job both pilots.....question - where do you get that "if you don't pull you don't increase your stall speed"? my understanding is that bank angle in itself will increase your stall speed...Also friendly suggestion - call it approach trajectory, or flight-path, rather than geometry, less confusing
I’m an inactive instructor myself, and I’ve only actually to put an airplane down once. I lost oil pressure in a Pawnee I was delivering to El Paso, TX. Furthermore, Cessna states that in a slip with more than 50% flaps, a serious nose down situation can occur. I would generally not put in flaps until I had the field made, but that’s just me.
Only craft I’ve ever flown is an ‘83 Quicksilver MX, 2 axis control, 2 cyl. two stroke engine ,single seat ultralight.( part 103 air recreational vehicle). My instructor would reach up and shut the engine off, and then just look at me. We had no radio or intercom, just hand signals. First time he killed the engine, he looked at me with both his hands held out with palms up, and a “well?” look on his face. After about five seconds of very intense learning on my part, he pointed at a grass strip we were right over, and took the controls and showed me the way to put the MX right where he wanted (no engine). I learned to make an engine off landing as my last landing of the night at least once a month. Lesson learned saved my butt.twice the first year when the Cuyauna quit, and we had to use a trailer to get the plane back to the airport. N.E.OH Bob
The 172Ms I fly in have a POH notation of “no slip with flaps”. My instructor always said that in an emergency you would just send it if needed. What about for practice? Clean up flaps and slip if needed?
Maintain 1.4 times stall speed while gliding to your objective. That speed should be close to best glide. Remember, you may be dealing with an obstacle such as the wall of the stadium or the goalposts. When you have the landing spot, assured that you are ready to flare slowly raise the nose until you stall the airplane mains first about a foot above until touchdown. Immediately go flaps up and apply for back pressure and moderate braking.
I disagree with too high being just as bad as too low. If you are too high, you can s-turn, forward slip, increase flaps, lower the nose, circle, zig zag etc. Tons of options. If you are too low, you have ZERO options, you are going to land short of the runway.
The end zone is 10 yards long = 30ft. A football field is 30 x 2 = 60 + 300 = 360ft. total length. Not a lot of room, but better than nothing in a pinch.
If terrain limits your geometry options, then how do you feel about flaps vs slip? I suppose flaps are generally safer, but it sure takes a long time for them to come back up if you decide that now you're too low.
I would "spend flaps" carefully because you're right, once their in, their in. However, with the limited rudder travel in most training planes a slip alone is not enough. I think the geometry is the most important part and there are very few runways where terrain is so close this is not an option. Slips are a great "fine tuner".
You bet! I think my point is that you can really square the turn to final, don't be afraid to drop into a steep bank, let the nose fall to keep the speed, no need to overshoot the final.
Valuable video. Question... does adding the first notch of flaps give you a bit of lift or does it create drag. I noticed that on the one approach your student Lost the engine, put in flaps and slowed to best glide. What is the best sequence and do you add first notch? Thanks for your video all the best neal punta gorda florida cfi
I watch all of your videos because you do such a great job explaining things. I am 18.2 hours into my PPL training and I learn something new from you with each video that I watch. Thanks for the great content, keep em coming.
Big question - if we're going to do simulated engine outs on every landing we can, which I think is a great idea, how do we manage potential shock cooling of the engine?
Really nice videos and very useful. You obviously have a great ability to competently teach. Just one thing. Football fields are actually 360 feet long. The main field is 100 yards exactly or 300 feet and each end zone is just 10 yards or 30 feet thus a total of 360 feet. Trying to land on a football field is tough, but something that actually is 500 feet would be 170 feet more space and could make the difference.
I am glad my primary private instructor always did this with me. "Pick a spot and commit," he would say. One day I tried to reach a private field on the opposite side of the valley...would've been short of the runway about 300 feet. lol
Probably is a lot a short field approach where you focus on speed and energy management to prevent floating pass the target and avoid bouncing off the ground. With the option of a go around off the table you have to hit a mark.
you are missing ONE key tool (I am speaking as a high time private pilot AND a high time glider pilot)... that tool? Keep your Glide speed HIGH until you NEED to slow down in order to stretch your glide a bit... The other three tools are spot on. But the fourth one is key too! (gliding at an overly-fast speed). Glide fast = sink is high... it's another tool (bonus = it comes with reserve energy that you can trade for altitude if you encounter sink)... and learning how to make use of those FOUR tools (the three you point out, PLUS keeping speed high) is the key to nailing the EXACT point you want to nail, every single time. I can put ANY plane, exactly on the numbers, deadstick, from ANY altitude, every single time. (I know you use this tool subconsciously because you advocate keeping speed high on base) Think about it, reflect on why you advocate the higher speed, and play with speed on base and final... you will find you are actually using FOUR tools. You can also slow down beyond best glaide to sink fast.... but that is another lesson. Keep playing with it.
No, you are wrong. It is NEVER “just as bad as being too high...”. It is far better to be too high. Altitude is your friend,. I can always slip to get down, but without an engine I can do nothing to keep up and make the field. Flaps and slipping are correct, but don’t confuse the trade offs of excess altitude with the incomparable and unavoidable position of insufficient altitude to make the runway. Always have an off- field option when you are unable to make the field due to insufficient altitude upon failure of thrust.
I think we agree here more than you might realize. But I stand by what I said. It's just as bad to fly over the field and into the trees on the far end as it is to come up short and hit the trees before the field starts. Trees are trees. I agree that altitude is your friend and that is why I advocate flying a "high, tight approach" in the video. You must be able to shed that altitude though or flying over the field will be just as bad as coming up short. In theory, yes you can slip etc. to lose altitude ... that is what this whole video is about. Most people, however (not including you maybe), don't shed that altitude effectively. They've heard about slips / tried them ... but they are not proficient enough to do it well. And the rudder in a place like a Cessna does not really allow for big slips (not like a Citabria would, for example). That's why I made this video ... to discuss the "geometry of your approach" ... which in my opinion, is the most important part of shedding altitude.
What am I missing? Why drop a notch of flaps immediately? Shouldn’t you wait until you are sure you can make your touchdown zone? Climb to bleed airspeed down to best glide as you turn towards your target. Or were you already that close?
My CFI this morning said what you’ve been saying. Don’t land the plane. And also had me fly the whole run way about 5 to 10 ft off the ground to get comfortable on approaching the runway.
If think you may not make it to the runway: Establish best glide speed. If the runway appears to be rising, you will not make it. If the runway appears to be sinking, you are high.
ConvairDart106 yeah, I was just being a little generous figuring that for most “open field” type parks etc.have some space on either side of the actual field. But really it was just a way to give people a familiar reference that was close. I could have said “soccer field” but who the heck knows how long they are?! 😂
Thanks Jason. I was shocked on my primary training when we were able to line up at 4 miles and 2000AGL and pull power and I still had to slip at the end to get low enough.
I was taught a proper traffic pattern where you must use power on base/final, and a tighter pattern when doing power off landing. Trained in a Tapered wing PA28 that seemed to float forever, most used runway had a slight downslope. At my home field with lots of terrain, trees and a river I usually go for power off landings with the reasoning behind it, so I don't end up in the river. The Hersey Bar wing on the PA28 I fly at home have a lot less float and I would rather not come up short if the engine quits
I would think timing of actions have just as much importance to "hitting a point" on a runway if you aren't already on a normal glide slope for landing. For example, moving the flaps from one position to the next takes a second or two and therefore the authority of that action will take place at a slight lag which normally is not important but may be if you have to drop faster. Much of that basically means knowing how the plane responds.
I have never failed to get in, in several real power offs. I want my students to do anything to get in, dive, side slip, s turn, flaps, steep turns. I don't care if they are 10 or 15 kts above best glide.
I used to teach s turns to lose height and sometimes where appropriate with heaps of height just diving and accepting the extra speed because it washes off very rapidly- the key is to know where the top of final is - in unfamiliar territory taking time to assess slope surface and obstacles is useful as well as pre landing checks- land on a prepared runway is great practice to know your aircraft and really should be regularly visited with an instructor on board
In the novel I am writing, the passenger takes over for the unconscious pilot and then has to glide into the small airport with no engine-since the fuel is gone. This little lesson is really helpful for me as a writer who does NOT fly. Thanks for the detailed instruction, pardner!
Very timely for me, as I just aced a simulated engine failure all the way to the ground in my recent BFR (described in my letter). I think one of the things that helped me was that I practice emergency power-off landings in the Redbird simulator a lot. It's not perfect, of course, especially with the limited "visibility"... but I did get better at controlling my approach with flaps and slips; even practicing the dreaded "impossible turn" back to the runway, seeing at what altitude I could pull it off and land safely. I was so proud of that BFR landing, timing my turn and slipping the Citabria just the right amount that I touched down right at my intended spot. I got my reality check about a month later, flying with Dave Carrick in the Chipmunk. My first two simulated engine failures were junk; I was rattled by the unfamiliar aircraft and location; I had trouble deciding which field to aim for, and Dave had me overshoot twice before he was happy with my third attempt. We discussed it in debrief, and I still need work on refining my technique in choosing the best field available, choosing my key points and getting the job done right the first time.
Just like in hang gliding or glider plane. Except the speed and glide angle of course. Looking out for wind sheer and lift and sink. Head and tail wind speeds. Speed is your friend.
I’m currently training for my CFI. And might I say, your videos helped me a great deal for my last check ride (CAX) I’ll definitely be coming back for more! Thank you so much! Once I have students of my own, I will also refer them to these videos! Very well explained lectures!
9:07 "Don't dive so hard with the nose." This is the real challenge. Only way I can think of to hit the target touchdown is to keep slipping, so as not to increase speed. For me, it is really hard to hold the slip that close to touchdown.
My landing goal was to be power off at base but I flew sailplanes for initial training. I had to learn how to drive around long patterns. Trail-draggers love to slip to flare.
Hey Jason, Great video. I have a question for you. When your student goes to touch down after the engine failure, right before the flare, he TRIMS LIKE MAD. What is your take on this? I personally am all for trim as you need, however, should you have to do a go around (disregard the engine failure, if the TOWER said to go around, you're training, so go around...OR should he drift way off course and you want to overshoot) as a student, he is going to have a very nose high attitude because of that trim, possibly getting into a low level stall. Completely get that during an engine failure, just get the airplane down, I just think this student might trim all the time there and to me, that is potential for a bad day. Thoughts? Thanks!
My question (and fear that is holding me back from practicing engine out...) that I'm afraid of long periods of glides with throttle to idle, I'm talking about cooling the engine too much, and harm it... So it may quit when I actually need to add power terminating the simulation.... So, again, yes we practiced in the traffic pattern, which is short periods of time, but I'm afraid of practicing it from a higher, longer distance, for the above mentioned (over cooling) reason... Any thoughts on that..?
I'm not an A&P so take this with a grain of salt, but a bigger concern in most pistons is excess fuel pooling up in the runners at long periods of idle. When you go to push the throttle forward to go around, the excessively rich mixture for those few seconds can cause the engine to bog or even stop. That can quickly turn your practiced emergency landing into a real one! To avoid this, I was always taught to "clear" the engine every couple minutes or so.
Great video! Was hitting the 180 power offs yesterday as part of my BFR. So rare to do in regular flight and a great tip to practice them whenever you can! Been a listener of the podcast since 2009 and great to see you putting out content on TH-cam!
Thanks Ryan. You're old school! TH-cam has been a lot of fun. When I started making videos it was much harder, nowadays, I can carry a Go Pro and edit on a home computer. It's pretty fun to show what I do everyday.
Old school indeed! TFP was always a staple in my 30 minute drive to KHDC and now has been a great refresher as I get back to flying. Still a spring chicken at 130TT, but looking forward to logging many more hours.
I like your tip to take the controls when you want to say something to the student that they need to hear/absorb. Fantastic!
I tend to use geometry first, THEN flaps when trying to hit the spot for power off accuracy landings.... I can dump full flaps when I know I have the runway made, then slip as needed to be in the flare just before the runway aiming point markings.
One other tool to add to the bag of tricks is the S turn. Many pilots get locked into a straight in final and get all jammed up trying to get down when a couple of shallow turns will add a lot of room to loose altitude. Also when doing an actual engine out, you should be aiming for the middle of the field so that if there is an unexpected headwind or more sink than you expect, you can still make the runway. It's better to go off the end of the runway at 20 than to end up short in the trees at 70. As usual, great video Jason.
Good point. Adding my illustration to your S turn suggestion :-) th-cam.com/video/WtnSvy0a1o4/w-d-xo.html
This is true! Another way to use the "geometry" as a tool to lose altitude.
I think S-turns are a terrible idea. Learn to slip, also if you speed up in the slip the drag increases by the square. Go get a glider rating and you will learn energy management.
After N76075, I'm not sure S-Turns on final are a safe option
@@JonathanStCloud-yo5oq s-turns at low alt and potentially slow are basically setting up conditions for a spin-stall accident if the student isn’t yet precise and coordinated for every turn.
A great tip to take the controls when you need the student to listen and absorb what you’re saying. I do this with newer students during full stop taxi back landings, so they can talk about their previous landing and I can give them info. If they’ve just landed and they are taxiing the plane they aren’t listening!
It's a great tool / technique and the students appreciate it
It is quite obvious to me that you truly love what you are doing Jason and it is appreciated by all aviators.
Thanks Steve. I really do. I feel very fortunate.
Interesting idea/tip to do a power-off approach on "every approach you fly" if able... I imagine that'd really help with proficiency in doing this!
Assuming you live in a place that doesn't normally have a 2 mile final.
If you are descending at an angle/descent-rate that allows safe power off approach, then I guess you're relatively safe in the unlikely event that the engine fails during the approach
My instructor first taught me power-off landings for many hours. After that one day he asked me to descend faster and then progressively add some power during the final to control the glide slope. and approach speed. In a couple of hours I learned the power-on approach, I think this way of learning gives a much better overall feeling, for example I quickly learned to tune the power for landing without even looking et RPM.
You have a gift for instructing. Excellent work, sir!
That tip about the taking the controls so the student can focus on what you are saying - brilliant! As a bonus, I bet it also helps you to be more conscientious and selective about which moments you pick to communicate, and thereby a better instructor. In my own experience as a student, I have missed many a well-intentioned learning opportunity when the task of absorbing the lesson shared “in the moment” fell by the wayside due to being fully preoccupied with the ongoing priority of flying the airplane; I heard the instructor’s point, but didn’t fully process it or retain it for long as it got crowded out by other thoughts. (I jointly fault myself for needing to be a more effective multitasker better able to deal with those moments, something I’m trying to improve upon.) Although we could (and no doubt did) revisit those discussions later, I can’t help but think this bit of advice would (and hopefully will) make the training experience just that much better for students like me. Kudos to you for sharing it, and also to every instructor who takes it to heart and implements it!
Yes, it's so task saturating to fly an airplane. I'd say about 60% of your attention is gone just doing that. So it's pointless to communicate important concepts in the airplane unless you unload that processor first! A tip born of experience for sure ... many many many students over the years.
Same here! I wish my instructor had done this. So many hours where there was no brief or debrief, just throwing everything at me while I was trying to do downwind checks, watch speed and altitude and listen to radio for calls. I know we need to learn to multitask, but not when every aspect of it requires intense concentration!
Also. New thing I’m teaching. If you want to go low, go slow. Just slowing 5 knots to let’s say 60knots IAS will turn a Cessna into a brick. Try it. Works like a charm.
I love power off approaches. I'm definitley going to show this to my students. The biggest habit I need to break with them is the hesitancy to turn that base early and just make it a real tight pattern just like you described. They always wanna have a downwind length equivilant to a powered approach and the solution is just to not add flaps until short final.
I was orignially taught power off approaches every time. I think not teaching that way sort of handicaps students and limits understanding of energy management, but I work at a 141 school and they want everything standardized across the board with all the instructors. To inclulde a powered approach. 1500 rpm all the way down.
I don't agree with the statement being too high is as bad as being too low. There are ways to bleed off altitude (S-turns and flaps) but nothing you can do to add altitude.
Dude your teaching style and explanations are great. Simple, informative, give different perspectives, and you don't try to over complicate it with crazy technical terms that nobody will know in the beginning.
2 things you need to keep in mind. First the idling engine does create some thrust so with an actual engine out you will not be able to glide as far. Second your elevator may not have as much authority as it normally does which might require an adjustment to how you flare or more speed possibly.
Excellent lesson. My CFI stressed the same in my head., where would I land (ALWAYS) and how do I get it there and bleed the alt. Thanks
Wow. those 3 points really boiled it down for me, specially in a situation where quick and assertive thinking is key. I really really like the the Tips for CFI’s here and there too!
My Army CFI made me cut power when I was even with threshold on downwind. Never reapplying power during base or final. It was to practice pilot dead stick touch down recognition. I still do it today. Kind of makes my patterns a bit small but what the heck.
And again another gem of Finer Points. I was initially taught power off approaches ibecause your practicing (in a sense) a forced landing everytime. Then my new crap PPL instructor started telling me to keep some power on into the flare. Totally counter intuitive ! Thanks again.
Funny thing about football fields....goal post...great video Jason
Thanks! yes, true. also possibly the football players :-0 ... If there were none, I think I'd try to land it on a slight diagonal to miss the goal posts. Or maybe I'm talking about the proverbial football field ,,,?
Question... on a recent Checkride, my DPE talked about the danger of the slip turning into a skid and the stalling problem with that (how on a slip the wing stalls to level flight, while the skid can stall you to unrecoverable)... I don't quite understand the physics and curious if you address that in any of your videos?
It has to do with whether the nose of the airplane is blocking the high wing (slip) or the low wing (skid). The reason slips are safe is if the high wing stalls it will drop to level, if you stall the low wing you will go vertical or upside down.
On the subject of football fields if you go diagonally you have about 400 ft. you really probably do want to go diagonally to because the goal posts are 30 feet high at the center of each end.
"Am I high or low, fast or slow". My instructor (Grandson of C.G. Taylor - inventor of Taylorcraft) says that too, but you're the only other CFI I've heard say that. Kind of curious where that saying originally came from.
Not sure, but it's SO COOL that you learned from the grandson of the inventor of Taylorcraft. :)
My CFI here in KDBQ says that all the time, too. I hear it in my head even when I'm flying solo!
Football field with end zones is 360 feet
Brand new pilot....got my ticket Thursday...i find your videos excellent. You are a very calm and collective CFI with great info. Thanks! Subscribed!
At 4:10 yes exactly correct; Whatever you do the impulse to pull inside rudder has to be countered out by repetitive training; Trail-draggers not only love to slip to flare you have removed the excess tendency to just flight down to the end of runway; It just settles in like it was trained to do that
To my horror some will even pull back on the yoke with inside wing low;
We read about those guys at NTSB
Excellent. Amazing how often CFI's need to remember students to keep the nose down. Same happens to me. Very good stuff, thanks so much for the video.
I'm doing my Private right now, plan to go all the way to CFI. So my instructor is combining some lessons knowing they are coming down the road. I struggled with nailing my touchdown point on a squared off pattern. One day he said....Lets try a power off 180 "short approach"..... OMG, loved it....SO much easier. Pull the power at the numbers, drag the numbers level across a circle of motion and Boom...nail it every time. I was like " Why didn't you teach me that from the beginning?!" lol
Yes, it's interesting to see from the right seat. Without the power - you remove a variable that is rarely consistent. I think it makes it easier too.
I did my entire first training in an airplane doing purely power off 180, now, converting types, my CFI wants me to reduce to 1500, speed check, flaps to 10, and working a squared approach. I'm having a lot of trouble juggling everything. I desperately want my simple airplane back =( Power off 180 is so much better.
Chock full o good nuggets! I'm transitioning from a T-41 (C172 but with a bigger engine) to a Sklane RG. I'm struggling to get the airplane down or to slow my speed. I use the yoke and throttle well in the T-41 but can't translate that into the 182. You just made me realize I wasn't using the "geometry" or all of the airplanes tools (flaps full or some variation of) if I'm high on base. Thank you for this.
One question though: Slips at full flaps are are frowned upon at my aero club, and it's in the T-41's checklist not to (but not in the 182's). Do you do "light" slips will full flaps, or only when less than full flaps. With a high wing, there's a tendency to wash out the tail with full flaps.
Sorry Jason. Forgot to say this is a very well executed lesson. Bravo.
If you are high over a runway, can't you just circle over the middle of it?
At 4:03 - you get into not banking the aircraft enough, GREAT advice! As a glider pilot and instructor, we teach 45 degree bank turns in the circuit, it is the most efficient turn when gliding. You will lose the least altitude for your course change. less bank angle and you take longer to turn (hence lose more height) and steeper, you are now sliding sideways, too much lift sideways.
Love your videos BTW!
In the middle of my flight training to become CFI out of Livermore... would love to sign up for your mountain flying training camp-out , most likely next year, as I am strapped for cash this year .. will keep an eye out at Livermore for you/students in meantime. Cheers !
Thanks for this video! Getting ready to start my commercial and looking forward to trying the power-off 180s.
Consider not to pitch up for best glide. If you have an engine failure at say 100 kts and best glide is 65, it is best I think to keep the aircraft flying and let it decelerate alone. If you pull to bring it to the glide speed imidiately you momentarily increase the g to over 1 and this will cost some meters on the gliding distance you could achieve.
As a glider pilot all of my approaches are power off.
Um,, too high
Flaps, slips, S turns.
Also diving and climbing burns energy.
Football fields are 300’ long..
Dan Gryder say to never turn at all if any engine problem, even from 1k feet agl on a Cessna easy to turnback. To crash in front all times, NO TURNS. Really? LoL. I know 3 friends that turned back from as low as 300 agl with partial power and avoided crashing on houses and cars. he is FOS, the more maneuvers you know, the better pilot you are. Ignorance kills, practice saves
Thanks for this great video, and good job both pilots.....question - where do you get that "if you don't pull you don't increase your stall speed"? my understanding is that bank angle in itself will increase your stall speed...Also friendly suggestion - call it approach trajectory, or flight-path, rather than geometry, less confusing
I’m an inactive instructor myself, and I’ve only actually to put an airplane down once. I lost oil pressure in a Pawnee I was delivering to El Paso, TX.
Furthermore, Cessna states that in a slip with more than 50% flaps, a serious nose down situation can occur. I would generally not put in flaps until I had the field made, but that’s just me.
I definitely agree with the name of your channel. This is fine teaching and very cerebral.
Only craft I’ve ever flown is an ‘83 Quicksilver MX, 2 axis control, 2 cyl. two stroke engine ,single seat ultralight.( part 103 air recreational vehicle). My instructor would reach up and shut the engine off, and then just look at me. We had no radio or intercom, just hand signals. First time he killed the engine, he looked at me with both his hands held out with palms up, and a “well?” look on his face. After about five seconds of very intense learning on my part, he pointed at a grass strip we were right over, and took the controls and showed me the way to put the MX right where he wanted (no engine). I learned to make an engine off landing as my last landing of the night at least once a month. Lesson learned saved my butt.twice the first year when the Cuyauna quit, and we had to use a trailer to get the plane back to the airport. N.E.OH Bob
The 172Ms I fly in have a POH notation of “no slip with flaps”.
My instructor always said that in an emergency you would just send it if needed.
What about for practice? Clean up flaps and slip if needed?
Maintain 1.4 times stall speed while gliding to your objective. That speed should be close to best glide. Remember, you may be dealing with an obstacle such as the wall of the stadium or the goalposts. When you have the landing spot, assured that you are ready to flare slowly raise the nose until you stall the airplane mains first about a foot above until touchdown. Immediately go flaps up and apply for back pressure and moderate braking.
careful on football field! field goals would suck to hit!
I disagree with too high being just as bad as too low. If you are too high, you can s-turn, forward slip, increase flaps, lower the nose, circle, zig zag etc. Tons of options. If you are too low, you have ZERO options, you are going to land short of the runway.
The end zone is 10 yards long = 30ft. A football field is 30 x 2 = 60 + 300 = 360ft. total length. Not a lot of room, but better than nothing in a pinch.
If terrain limits your geometry options, then how do you feel about flaps vs slip? I suppose flaps are generally safer, but it sure takes a long time for them to come back up if you decide that now you're too low.
I would "spend flaps" carefully because you're right, once their in, their in. However, with the limited rudder travel in most training planes a slip alone is not enough. I think the geometry is the most important part and there are very few runways where terrain is so close this is not an option. Slips are a great "fine tuner".
Welcome to western PA. I think 1/2 the airports are named after the ravine they sit in. Thanks for all the info Jason!
You bet! I think my point is that you can really square the turn to final, don't be afraid to drop into a steep bank, let the nose fall to keep the speed, no need to overshoot the final.
Valuable video. Question... does adding the first notch of flaps give you a bit of lift or does it create drag. I noticed that on the one approach your student Lost the engine, put in flaps and slowed to best glide. What is the best sequence and do you add first notch? Thanks for your video
all the best neal punta gorda florida cfi
It only adds drag. If you want to glide as far as possible, do not add flaps
I would never use flaps early in the approach. Better to do S turns or side slip until you are okay with the altitude on final. Then apply flaps....
What is the name / make / model of the traffic notification gear you’re using please? I heard it at around 7:06... Thanks!
Glider pilots be like "light work"
Underappreciated comment
The danger of getting glider time is that you might never come back to powered.
I do a power-off approach on every approach I fly... because that's what glider pilots do :-)
Me too. No pesky engines to betray you! Let mother nature bring you home.
I watch all of your videos because you do such a great job explaining things. I am 18.2 hours into my PPL training and I learn something new from you with each video that I watch. Thanks for the great content, keep em coming.
Wilco! Good on you for seeking out solid info, keep it up!
When off power and keeping descending can I still keep turn rate up to 30 degrees or it should be less?
My airplane would simply not have an engine failure
Big question - if we're going to do simulated engine outs on every landing we can, which I think is a great idea, how do we manage potential shock cooling of the engine?
Jack B not really an issue in a Cessna 172. She’s a freakin truck.
The correct answer is always, “The ground.”.
What airline do you teach at? I don’t have one near me and I’m worried the ads I see are scams or terrible schools
Shit. Clicked so fast video was still private.
First?
Out of all the Instructors on you tube to get a personal lesson from I would choose you.
Really nice videos and very useful. You obviously have a great ability to competently teach. Just one thing. Football fields are actually 360 feet long. The main field is 100 yards exactly or 300 feet and each end zone is just 10 yards or 30 feet thus a total of 360 feet. Trying to land on a football field is tough, but something that actually is 500 feet would be 170 feet more space and could make the difference.
I have so much work to do.. these videos remind me of how horribly rusty I am.. thanks for the tips
Aero360Aviation don’t we all! Thanks for watching 🙏🏻
Again, great Vid. Gotta take this lesson to heart, thanks Jason.
I am glad my primary private instructor always did this with me. "Pick a spot and commit," he would say. One day I tried to reach a private field on the opposite side of the valley...would've been short of the runway about 300 feet. lol
Do you have a target airspeed on final for this maneuver in the C172?
Yes, approx 65 knots in calm winds with full flaps
6:08 is it good idea to trim right before touchdown ? oO
Probably is a lot a short field approach where you focus on speed and energy management to prevent floating pass the target and avoid bouncing off the ground. With the option of a go around off the table you have to hit a mark.
you are missing ONE key tool (I am speaking as a high time private pilot AND a high time glider pilot)... that tool? Keep your Glide speed HIGH until you NEED to slow down in order to stretch your glide a bit... The other three tools are spot on. But the fourth one is key too! (gliding at an overly-fast speed). Glide fast = sink is high... it's another tool (bonus = it comes with reserve energy that you can trade for altitude if you encounter sink)... and learning how to make use of those FOUR tools (the three you point out, PLUS keeping speed high) is the key to nailing the EXACT point you want to nail, every single time. I can put ANY plane, exactly on the numbers, deadstick, from ANY altitude, every single time. (I know you use this tool subconsciously because you advocate keeping speed high on base) Think about it, reflect on why you advocate the higher speed, and play with speed on base and final... you will find you are actually using FOUR tools. You can also slow down beyond best glaide to sink fast.... but that is another lesson. Keep playing with it.
No, you are wrong. It is NEVER “just as bad as being too high...”.
It is far better to be too high. Altitude is your friend,. I can always slip to get down, but without an engine I can do nothing to keep up and make the field.
Flaps and slipping are correct, but don’t confuse the trade offs of excess altitude with the incomparable and unavoidable position of insufficient altitude to make the runway. Always have an off- field option when you are unable to make the field due to insufficient altitude upon failure of thrust.
I think we agree here more than you might realize. But I stand by what I said. It's just as bad to fly over the field and into the trees on the far end as it is to come up short and hit the trees before the field starts. Trees are trees. I agree that altitude is your friend and that is why I advocate flying a "high, tight approach" in the video. You must be able to shed that altitude though or flying over the field will be just as bad as coming up short. In theory, yes you can slip etc. to lose altitude ... that is what this whole video is about. Most people, however (not including you maybe), don't shed that altitude effectively. They've heard about slips / tried them ... but they are not proficient enough to do it well. And the rudder in a place like a Cessna does not really allow for big slips (not like a Citabria would, for example). That's why I made this video ... to discuss the "geometry of your approach" ... which in my opinion, is the most important part of shedding altitude.
What am I missing? Why drop a notch of flaps immediately? Shouldn’t you wait until you are sure you can make your touchdown zone? Climb to bleed airspeed down to best glide as you turn towards your target. Or were you already that close?
Agree 100% with ArcticMayhem below... S-turns to get low. Being high (having altitude) is ALWAYS better than too low... :-)
Yeah short field landing for the private pilot license holders
And power off 180s for the commercial pilots
My CFI this morning said what you’ve been saying. Don’t land the plane. And also had me fly the whole run way about 5 to 10 ft off the ground to get comfortable on approaching the runway.
5:42
If think you may not make it to the runway:
Establish best glide speed.
If the runway appears to be rising, you will not make it.
If the runway appears to be sinking, you are high.
Where do you get a 500 foot, football field? 100 yards, is 300 feet between the goal posts!
ConvairDart106 yeah, I was just being a little generous figuring that for most “open field” type parks etc.have some space on either side of the actual field. But really it was just a way to give people a familiar reference that was close. I could have said “soccer field” but who the heck knows how long they are?! 😂
Thanks Jason. I was shocked on my primary training when we were able to line up at 4 miles and 2000AGL and pull power and I still had to slip at the end to get low enough.
I was taught a proper traffic pattern where you must use power on base/final, and a tighter pattern when doing power off landing. Trained in a Tapered wing PA28 that seemed to float forever, most used runway had a slight downslope. At my home field with lots of terrain, trees and a river I usually go for power off landings with the reasoning behind it, so I don't end up in the river. The Hersey Bar wing on the PA28 I fly at home have a lot less float and I would rather not come up short if the engine quits
Im getting ready to take my discovery flight this channel has been a MASSSSSSIVE help.
I would think timing of actions have just as much importance to "hitting a point" on a runway if you aren't already on a normal glide slope for landing. For example, moving the flaps from one position to the next takes a second or two and therefore the authority of that action will take place at a slight lag which normally is not important but may be if you have to drop faster. Much of that basically means knowing how the plane responds.
I have never failed to get in, in several real power offs. I want my students to do anything to get in, dive, side slip, s turn, flaps, steep turns.
I don't care if they are 10 or 15 kts above best glide.
power idle, aircraft never feels the same RoD in real engine failure.
I used to teach s turns to lose height and sometimes where appropriate with heaps of height just diving and accepting the extra speed because it washes off very rapidly- the key is to know where the top of final is - in unfamiliar territory taking time to assess slope surface and obstacles is useful as well as pre landing checks- land on a prepared runway is great practice to know your aircraft and really should be regularly visited with an instructor on board
In the novel I am writing, the passenger takes over for the unconscious pilot and then has to glide into the small airport with no engine-since the fuel is gone. This little lesson is really helpful for me as a writer who does NOT fly. Thanks for the detailed instruction, pardner!
Very timely for me, as I just aced a simulated engine failure all the way to the ground in my recent BFR (described in my letter). I think one of the things that helped me was that I practice emergency power-off landings in the Redbird simulator a lot. It's not perfect, of course, especially with the limited "visibility"... but I did get better at controlling my approach with flaps and slips; even practicing the dreaded "impossible turn" back to the runway, seeing at what altitude I could pull it off and land safely. I was so proud of that BFR landing, timing my turn and slipping the Citabria just the right amount that I touched down right at my intended spot. I got my reality check about a month later, flying with Dave Carrick in the Chipmunk. My first two simulated engine failures were junk; I was rattled by the unfamiliar aircraft and location; I had trouble deciding which field to aim for, and Dave had me overshoot twice before he was happy with my third attempt. We discussed it in debrief, and I still need work on refining my technique in choosing the best field available, choosing my key points and getting the job done right the first time.
Just like in hang gliding or glider plane. Except the speed and glide angle of course. Looking out for wind sheer and lift and sink. Head and tail wind speeds. Speed is your friend.
I’m currently training for my CFI. And might I say, your videos helped me a great deal for my last check ride (CAX) I’ll definitely be coming back for more! Thank you so much! Once I have students of my own, I will also refer them to these videos! Very well explained lectures!
9:07 "Don't dive so hard with the nose." This is the real challenge. Only way I can think of to hit the target touchdown is to keep slipping, so as not to increase speed. For me, it is really hard to hold the slip that close to touchdown.
except you would have smacked into the stadium seating on final
My landing goal was to be power off at base but I flew sailplanes for initial training. I had to learn how to drive around long patterns. Trail-draggers love to slip to flare.
If you are high can you go idle and full flaps
Wish I had this cat instructing me decades ago
I guess "down" isn't the answer you are looking for?
Hey Jason,
Great video. I have a question for you. When your student goes to touch down after the engine failure, right before the flare, he TRIMS LIKE MAD. What is your take on this? I personally am all for trim as you need, however, should you have to do a go around (disregard the engine failure, if the TOWER said to go around, you're training, so go around...OR should he drift way off course and you want to overshoot) as a student, he is going to have a very nose high attitude because of that trim, possibly getting into a low level stall. Completely get that during an engine failure, just get the airplane down, I just think this student might trim all the time there and to me, that is potential for a bad day.
Thoughts? Thanks!
B
My question (and fear that is holding me back from practicing engine out...) that I'm afraid of long periods of glides with throttle to idle, I'm talking about cooling the engine too much, and harm it... So it may quit when I actually need to add power terminating the simulation.... So, again, yes we practiced in the traffic pattern, which is short periods of time, but I'm afraid of practicing it from a higher, longer distance, for the above mentioned (over cooling) reason... Any thoughts on that..?
I'm not an A&P so take this with a grain of salt, but a bigger concern in most pistons is excess fuel pooling up in the runners at long periods of idle. When you go to push the throttle forward to go around, the excessively rich mixture for those few seconds can cause the engine to bog or even stop. That can quickly turn your practiced emergency landing into a real one! To avoid this, I was always taught to "clear" the engine every couple minutes or so.
A football field is 500 ft?! Don’t forget about the goalposts!
I’m no pilot just wanted to throw out there to not forget about the goals at a football field. That could hurt 😆
Thank you for sharing this
Great video! Was hitting the 180 power offs yesterday as part of my BFR. So rare to do in regular flight and a great tip to practice them whenever you can! Been a listener of the podcast since 2009 and great to see you putting out content on TH-cam!
Thanks Ryan. You're old school! TH-cam has been a lot of fun. When I started making videos it was much harder, nowadays, I can carry a Go Pro and edit on a home computer. It's pretty fun to show what I do everyday.
Old school indeed! TFP was always a staple in my 30 minute drive to KHDC and now has been a great refresher as I get back to flying. Still a spring chicken at 130TT, but looking forward to logging many more hours.
I think it’s not good to practise 10 flaps as soon as engine cuts.
I just subscribed. Do you ever fly a Cherokee?
Great video, thank you !
One question, I see the student doesn’t use the Trim, it wouldn’t help more to maintain the airspeed ?
LVK was my home airport.