A36 Bonanza Engine Failure on Takeoff: Impossible Turn or Turnback?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 พ.ย. 2019
- FlyWire takes a good look at the Impossible Turn and what Turnback altitude works and why. Come on along as we explore the idea of turning back to the airport with an engine failure. It's not all about making the 270-ish degrees of turn. Check it out! And don't try this at home!
FlyWire is about exploring flight and the freedom this incredible experience brings us on a personal level. Flying has always captured the imagination and excitement of living life to its fullest. Hi, I'm Scott Perdue. In a former life I flew the F-4 and F-15E, more recently I retired from a major airline. I've written for several aviation magazines over the years, was a consultant for RAND, the USAF, Navy, NASA as well as few others, wrote a military thriller- 'Pale Moon Rising' (still on Kindle). But mostly I like flying, or teaching flying. Some of the most fun I had was with Tom Gresham on a TV show called 'Wings to Adventure". We flew lots of different airplanes all over the country. Now with FlyWire I want to showcase the fun in flying, share the joy and freedom of flight and explore the world with you. Make sure you subscribe if you want to go along for the ride!
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What a great topic. I love your videos! Part of my pre-takeoff briefing is vocalized TWICE - once at the airport before getting in the plane (or at home before heading out to the airport) after getting ATIS/ASOS weather and once again in the plane holding short before calling the tower to depart. I vocalize the 70/50 rule - must have 70% of Vr by 50% of runway remaining or abort the takeoff - which for my plane is typically right after airspeed is alive at 45+ KIAS. Once in the air, failure (push down, trim for best glide AS SOON AS POSSIBLE...) at 0-400 feet AGL, land straight ahead, 400-700 feet consider turn into the wind up to 90 degrees, 700-1,200 AGL consider up to 180 turn, and above 1200 feet AGL, return to the airport. I call out what these altitudes are in MSL (and write them on a post-it note I put on the flight deck in easy view). It might say (400/Straight, 700/90 L or R -once I determine wind, 1000/180, >1000/Airport), I find it VERY important to use Google Earth and really review and survey the 2-3 mile area around the airport environment - that is most likely how far I would be away from the airport if I lost my engine under 1200 feet. Also to look at 3D view on Google Earth so I can see what potential obstructions I might be dealing with - compare against FF or my Sectional. Glad to have the FF glide advisor... On takeoff I ASSUME I am going to lose my engine to help me anticipate a push and not be in too much shock or have too much hesitation if it does actually fail. Complacency kills people - even the best pilots...
Thank you for the exceptional video. I suffered an engine failure 17 years ago in a v35B, an experience that I relive every time I fly. I can assure you, and everyone that reads this that any decision to turn back at 500 feet agl will be catastrophic, unless you are in a Cub or other high glide low stall airplane. My failure occurred at 700 feet and past the end of a 3000 foot runway on a hot, high DA afternoon. I had just seconds to “fly to the crash”, in my case a corn field. Gear up landing, no time to get it down and manage the additional drag. I and my pax walked away. I have since practiced the maneuver every month at 3000 plus. The story doesn’t change, under 1000 plan for straight ahead or possibly 90 degrees left or right.
Thank you once again for the fantastic video.
Leo- Thanks so much! I'm glad you liked the videO and you have a great story! Glad it turned out well! Practice instead!
40-45 degrees bank and Vminimum sink will make you turn in less radious. It wont stall unless you are too heavy or pull too much (Panic Pull). If those 2 cases, dont turnback. Or unless over 1,200 agl. In the turn, if get too slow under say 90knots you are supposed to pop 10 degrees or 12 flaps in this case. The lower the speed, the lower the flaps have to be to lower the stall speed. That is normal knowledge for any real pilot. Thanks for your video Mr. Perdue.. Good knowledge saves lives. Some say dont learn turnbacks. But ignorance is not the answer, IGNORANCE IS THE PROBLEM.
I am so glad i found your channel, it has being so informative. Thank you for the great content.
Scott, I haven't flown in years but it still hasn't stopped me from trying to learn more about aviation technique. This video probably saved someone's life. Setting personal parameters about height/turning back decision making is so very important. Setting hard and fast rules for each pilot can mean the difference between a crumpled airplane that you walk away from or hangar talk about "why did he try to turn back when he was so low". I find your videos full of information and every pilot should watch and learn from your expertise. Well done!
Thanks so much Michael!
You are the only one I’ve seen who emphasized the airspeed at time of engine failure. Critical factor. Now it registered in my mind. Thank you.
From 700 agl you could easily reach the runway, you had enough alt to even drop the gear and flaps at 06:19. But then the crosswind tailwind landing could be a challenge. From 1k could be even easier. But that crosswind/tailwind landing could demand perfection, specially on the tailwind alignment. Tailwind turns you have to start them before you think you need them or you will over shoot the alignment.
The CFI that taught me those turnbacks 2 decades ago have a video landing a cherokee with full 16 knots of tailwind/crosswind on 3,000 feet of runway used.
He used full flaps at the 180 degree point, forward slips, align early, then cut the flaps and mixture in the flare. Good tricks to know..
Very good video and informative on the turn back issues. I like how you set a DH while still on the ground in case of Murphy biting. lots of good comments/observations on this one.
Beautiful airplane. Thanks for the demo.
Thank you Very professional presentation. Nice bed side manner.
great tutorial - you'll save a life or two with that, thanks.
Superb video! Thank you!
Always excellent well calculated analysis. Ground rush is a big issue in landing my parachute every time and is a killer....at least a bruiser. Not really practiced in Aviation. I had not thought about that aspect of engine out. Also the Mush as you try to level off.....may push you into the ground. A lot to consider..... Thank you!
Thank you for video, very informative
I love your videos keep it up I have learned a lot thanks
Thanks for this! After the Harrison Ford incident, I went up and practiced different configs with a 1K over a practice field sim takeoff/climb and same as the hard deck until I had it figured out. Now, I can do it consistently to a full stop as long as I have at least 800agl at a mile or less with turn into any crosswind. Slip and flaps often needed with a good tailwind. At half mile, 500agl is the magic number. It's a good tool to have in the bag if the straight ahead options are buildings and one knows the numbers. The thing that surprised me most is how brisk the push needs to be to get best glide in C182 when pulling the throttle on climb out.
1:51 Dana Carvey / GHWB voice on point!
Communication is critical. If at a Towered airport, my "goal" is to return to the Airport Environment where the Tower can immediately get help on the way, to my exact location. Just the Airport Environment, with mostly flat land around the runway. If I can make the runway...Bonus. At non-towered or airports in busy city areas, pick the best spot and go in wings level as slow as possible.
Great observation!
Hey Scott it’s Cooper, Ron’s grandson! I love aviation and your videos are soooooo informational. I have a flight sim and I have learned the majority of my things from you!
Cooper, it is great to hear from you! Thank you so much for watching! Let me know when you're ready to take over for Ron!
Haha will do! He’s getting 321EL back soon! He said when he gets too old he’ll give it to me lol
Great video. I couldn’t believe the descent rate. 20 seconds from engine failure to the ground.
Very interesting very informative, a thousand foot seems to be the magic number, along with keeping your head.. Good upload thank you very much.
For that airplane. Best to try it out yourself, in your airplane under controlled parameters. The altitude might be higher, might be lower, depends on wing loading.
Great video. Happy Holidays
Great job on turn back. I totally agree with 400 agl FLY far into the cash as possible.
Great video Gunny!
Great stuff! Want to learn more about ground rush...
Great thinking
excellent.......i do the same....know your airplane....i mean really really know your aircraft....its your life...im comfortable with the turn back.....ive actually gone all the way and landed.....good video!
Hi Scott- Well since others have chimed in with their experiences, I thought I'd throw mine into the hat for consideration. As a CFI, I found myself on the receiving end of the question to-do-or-not-to-do-this more often than I cared to be. I came to dread the subject, but never let that show. After so many rounds with it, I ended up with a pseudo-formula with which I'd teach it. I'll try to encapsulate. Fundamentally, I would teach that they needed to have a plan in place prior to advancing the throttle, and one that was worked out during the preflight planning. Ergo, not one that they cobbled together while taxiing to the runway. Then execute that plan without much thought should you encounter the engine failure on climbout scenario. Regarding the details, in essence, I told student pilots and those with lower time to avoid the maneuver altogether. Instead, focus on suitable landing areas within a 60-to-90 degree sweep, either left or right. Then came my caveat (well one of them): do that UNLESS you are departing from an airport in a densely populated urban area or other obstructions where there are no suitable landing areas on the departure end of the runway. Even then, your planning should be able to identify some road or other open area that you might could aim for, assuming you reached a sufficient altitude and position to do so. This is getting long, though it is a lengthy subject to discuss. I'll attempt to summarize...what I'd teach is that after completing the weight and balance for the given load, the departure and landing distances as well as the expected ROC that they could expect given the atmospheric conditions present at the time of departure (ergo DA, winds, less some percentage due to airplane/engine age and condition), to then determine the minimum altitude that a return to the airport would be feasible. I'd have them do that using the engine-out glide performance chart in the POH/AFM. The ultimate number that they would generate would vary with those atmospheric conditions that I mentioned. I also had them compute the distance required to reach that altitude from the point at which the airplane began its takeoff roll. I avoided stating blanket altitudes such as 400', 500', 700' or even 1000' telling them instead to only consider the maneuver if they were willing to run the numbers. No numbers = no turnback attempt. Once that minimum altitude for that day, that load, those conditions, that airplane and that pilot's skill level and comfort factor was determined, I taught them to round it up to the next 100'. Then I had them write that number down in order to help them remember it; store it in your short term memory I would tell them, as it will vary a bit for each takeoff. Regarding the actual execution, I would tell them to plan on an engine out during the upwind, that is to merely be waiting on it to happen, to keep it at the forefront of their mind in order to reduce the reaction time as much as possible. Knowing full well that doing that would be quite difficult if not impossible. Anyway perform the takeoff procedure as per normal, hitting your speeds and maintaining them. Sweat gold bullets until you reach your rounded-off minimum altitude 'cause anything below that and all you have is what is in front of you. Have a plan for what you'll do if that happens too. Then if you reach that minimum altitude, don't hesitate whatsoever. Execute the turn as you practiced it, but whatever happens prepare the plane to land wings-level and at the slowest speed possible. Ergo don't continue a turn to make the runway because landing in the grassy areas is perfectly acceptable, depending on runway layout and airport configuration (ergo "open-ness"). Even if rolling out means hitting trees, as that would be better than cartwheeling in an open field. Maintaining speed was the most critical factor I would tell them. And that was it, well in a nutshell. We'd practice it at altitude and for advanced students I would generally be willing to attempt a simulated turnback at an uncontrolled airport provided that it wasn't busy. I did insist on a minimum recovery altitude though, much like your 200' number. I found that with some practice, the student themselves would know what the outcome would have been even prior to reaching that minimum recovery altitude, so there was no point in continuing the exercise below that certainly. Most of the time we ended the maneuver well above that minimum recovery altitude merely because the outcome was that obvious. In the final analysis, it seemed to me that the majority of student pilots appreciated the simplistic approach to the problem while the advanced students preferred to address the issue with a CFI in the right seat. I also found that by requiring them to run the numbers the whole concept and the larger-than-life persona/legend that accompanies it would be reduced to another maneuver that they had in their arsenal. And nothing more. That is, they all seemed to like the approach of dissecting the large monster of "The Impossible Turn" down to "just another maneuver" that they had to learn. Well ... so much for being brief. But there you have it ... my feedback. Hope it helps someone. Thanks!
Thanks for sharing Jerry, great story!
Great video Scott
Good advice.
Good vid. 700-800 ft is my minimums for turn back. At or below, continue straight do not turn back.
This is a fantastic video, thank you for putting it up. Love the quote "Why? Because I want to, and I can."
Have you considered doing a video on partial power loss on take off?
That seems to come up often in accident reports, yet I've never heard of an instructor teaching it as part of primary training. In cruise, you'd have time to go through the checklist for engine failure, and pick a good spot to land. On climbout, I'd probably continue straight, but now I'm wondering if the partial energy add might make turnback more reasonable. Thinking I need to try this out myself, at altitude, now...
Great video....learned a lot
Glad to hear it!
We just had a plane identical to this go down, taking 4 lives in Corona CA. Like your take on it. 3200 ft runway, 80 gal, 4 pax. Bounced 3x on runway past wind sock. He had maybe 1200 ft to put it down and stop from 50 ft in the air.
I truly hate to hear of these accidents!
keep up the great work
That's a Shack Lead! Another informative video, Scott. I'm glad to see you put it terms of minimum altitudes and also mentioned the favorable conditions. The last video I watched on this demo'd it in a Bearhawk at 500' didn't get into how situational/aircraft/pilot dependent it is. He made is sound a little too easy (IMO). Excellent point about knocking it off at a 200' hard deck as well.
Thanks a lot Dan! My perspective is to show what is really useful, and although I did sleep in a Holiday Inn, the purpose is not to show you how great I am!
@@FlyWirescottperdue Ha! Love it!
@@FlyWirescottperdue I don't know if you can expand here or not...I understand that you have more energy at Vcc over Vy. But eventually you're in a 45 deg bank at min sink in either case. How does beginning the maneuver at Vcc help avoid the stall tickle in that case? You end up at the same Min Sink airspeed and 45 deg bank in either case - don't you? Thanks Man. I think it was this vid or the TEX debrief that got me coming back.
Good to also practice those turnbacks when doing GRM Double Flyovers (Power on of course, to keep altitude). And also when High DA Box Canyon Turns, which are low power turnbacks. Those are turnbacks too many pilots dont know how to do and fail on them along with the Take Off Turnbacks. See my channel for those 3 turnback situations seldom practiced.
I retrained after thirty years away from flying. Although turnback after engine failure wasn't prominent in the syllabus, it was important to me, and I practiced it at altitude over I-10 west of New Orleans Lakefront (where a failure from 36 drops the plane in Lake Pontchartrain). One of the issues was turn direction from the takeoff leg. I decided I would rather be upwind during the turn drifting toward the airport than downwind clawing back to it. With a failure on the takeoff leg, and from a plausible altitude, I would turn into any crosswind. Another issue was how to mitigate the problem, and to me that meant regularly staying in the pattern close to the airport a bit longer while the engine proves itself. This argued for a routine turn to crosswind sooner and at lower altitude than later, further from the airport.
Great video. Only suggestion is to report how much of the needed turn the plane completed in each case. How far around had it come (50%? 80%?) before you stopped the exercise at 200' AGL. Thank you and fly safe.
Sounds like you approached the issue methodically. Good job.
From my perspective, the amount of turn remaining is not important and may prove a negative. If its not enough, acknowledge that and land somewhere else, while you still have the energy to do so. That's my take.
I instruct this "impossible turn" maneuver at altitude and perform a 360 turn so one can simulate being re-aligned with the runway and then getting the gear down. I ask the student to hold the pitch for 4 seconds and we loose 5 knots per second, so we are already at 85 - 90 when we then unload the wing and roll into a 45 degree bank. We do a 360 turn, and lower the gear with 30 degrees of turn to be completed. I will now watch the sink rate (ground rush) and make that part of the debrief. Keep up the good work! We typically loose 1100 feet on a good day! Most pilots keep their airspeed too high which accelerates their sink rate!
Dan, excellent to hear your technique. Doing this maneuver close to the ground leaves little margin for error.
Disclaimer: I am not a pilot. That being said. The 3 second delay killed your airspeed. Get light in the seat the second power is lost. That 3 seconds could have helped maintain momentum and allow you a tighter turn back without hitting the minimum safe maneuvering speed(probably the wrong term). Either way these are scary situations, and I'm sure that regular practice and learning the limits of you and the aircraft you are flying is prudent training. Great video, and I loled at the old SNL Bush reference. Love your videos.
Three seconds is fast, the range is 3-5 seconds for normal folks. Testing has showed that even if you are spring loaded to react... it still takes an average of two seconds. It's a cost of being human. And yes, of course it costs energy that you really need. The larger point is that if you don't train regularly to do the turnback, and have your set limits, then don't do it.
I’ve read an article suggesting a 30 to 45 degree left or right climb out considering the winds , to minimize the return angle necessary to realign the return approach. I practice these on my sim regularly but not yet in my plane. Thanks for the great video.
That is a technique, one that wouldn't apply at all fields, but definitely one to consider at an airport without many options!
It works. I did that on a Grumman Tiger i was testing for overheating. Saved the engine that way. Temp went to red line at about 550 agl. I TurnedBack and landed. If I went to downwind leg, base and final i could toast the 30,000 dollar engine.
The key is planning your "what iffs" before you start rolling. Had that drummed into me learning to fly gliders. Normally you check if you can land ahead but the next is to plan which way your first turn will be. Sometimes you can make an S turn to open up space into wind.
???? S turns where? ON Departure Leg?
@@CFITOMAHAWK Yes. It's difficult to explain without a diagram. Let's say there is a slight cross wind from right to left. On a cable break your first job is nose down to ensure airspeed. Then decide if you are high enough for a full circuit, partial circuit to another runway or land ahead. If landing ahead was marginal you might turn slightly left then immediately right so you are landing dead into wind into the right hand corner of the field. At our club almost everywhere was laudable if necessary. Calling it an S turn is exaggerating somewhat. The point was to decide in advance which direction your turn would be _if_ you have to turn.
@@ColinWatters Good points..
Nice flying. Get rid of the granny's , if you do have an emergency and they fall off you are toast....happy trails!
Nice piece on 'offensive' flying. Just as in motorcycling, there are times when aggressive maneuvering is required. When teaching CFIs, many of us have taught "the impossible turn." Demos at altitude included gentle vs steep bank altitude loss. Good demo on effects of wind. FAAST TEAMs could surely use your demo.
Thanks, Dick. I appreciate it. They would be welcome to use it!
@@FlyWirescottperdue Thanks, sir, I'll send it to out to out to our FAAST leader at the local FSDO.
Scott, your videos are top notch and so inspirational. In going through the engine out on takeoff my gear warning goes off when I pull back to idle. Is your gear down when you achieve your chosen altitude or don't you have your gear warning hooked up. With a couple of tries 1000' is definitely doable providing I mentally prepare for it prior to takeoff. A regiment I intend to do thanks to you. Be well.
Michael- Thanks, I appreciate it! You can hear the gear warning going off. I think you got the point... gotta be prepared and you gotta practice... or pretty much just go someplace in front of the wings.
Great call back to the old SNL George H.W. Bush "Wouldn't be prudent."
Excellent catch... does show your age;)
He just forgot, “not at this juncture” lol. Thanks for vid!
Hi Captain Perdue, where is the place to get a Gami-Spec engine made? Is there a combination of that engine with a particular prop that will give you the smoothest combo?
I prefer the MT prop.
Excellent video Scott, Thank you! I recently completed an RV-10 and plan to experiment using your techniques. With a 2000 foot floor! Very informative and much appreciated. I didn’t quite follow why you didn’t pull the prop back on your emergency return. Wouldn’t that give you more glide range?
It would give more glide range. But the engine was at idle so there is some amount of residual thrust. Leaving the prop at cruise does a better job of simulating that.
My rule is straight ahead and find a place to park if the engine fails below 400' agl. Above that is dependent on wind, altitude, and energy (speed) as the choice may still be a soft looking place.
I may have missed this point in your video.....always do a good run up (several minutes) before take off roll. I even go to full power for 15 seconds -- if the engine is going to fail let it do it now on the ground, not when you're 300' AGL over the departure end of the runway. Many climb out accidents could be avoided if the pilot did a good run up before departure.
Good suggestion.
All pilots should know how to turn well with 4 directions of strong winds affecting the track over the ground. It is called Ground Reference Maneuvering in strong winds. The problem is CFI's dont want to teach GRM in strong winds, they chose a mild wind instead that wont teach anything at all.
I call them A Mild Maneuvering CFI. I taught GRM on 20knots winds.. Big difference. Many accidents due pilot didnt know how to fly well in strong winds or land on strong winds. Mild winds make you a Mild Maneuvering pilot only.
U ever try using different rpm setting? An old Pete Garrison article in Flying seemed to indicate a course setting would yield longer glides. I never tried it in the Hawk XP. Thoughts?
Scott, indeed pulling the prop back is the best course of action in a real situation. I talked about it's impact in the first video of the engine out series- 'Best Glide and Min Sink'. I'm trying to show the boundary limits of the engine out situation. Hopefully, you'll take that and go practice them with an instructor and by yourself to develop the best practices for you in your airplane! As I said, I'm all about training, it's how we get better, and if we used to be better, its how we scrape the rust off. It's all flying and that's what its all about! Have fun!
Great video Scott. Did you get your Aspen fixed?
Got new ones as replacements. Still have a few issues.
This needs to be preached, preached preached. Even the great Cirrus with the parachute can't recover from a Takeoff engine loss. I walked away from an engine failure right after takeoff. I kept the dirty sound down and walked away. I couldn't clear the power lines and used the wing to bear the brunt of the energy. Luckily i was a helicopter pilot and knew about yaw. We landed hard but the wrap around the pole helped us! Before cell phones, I was running from house to house to call my wife, the attorney, and someone came out and said, Mister Mister, we'd call but you cut the telephone lines. While a funny ending, I thought it was the end of my life! Land Straight ahead!!!! Thanks Scott
Great story John!
I've done this whenever I've bought a new plane. I have found that it is best to turn no more than 90 degrees at 500 feet and 180 degrees at 1,000 feet
With a good wind you can do more. Not on short wing airplanes. or shallow climbing airplanes. Not those. With partial power you can Turback from 300 agl on non too heavily loaded airplanes. It takes practice but it is good to know those maneuvers.
@@feetgoaroundfullflapsC Banner towing climbs to only 300 agl to Power On Turnback to pick up the banner. Crop Dusters Turnback from 200 ag, Power On too. A matter of knowing how and not pull back much until the runway or place to go is under you. No Panic Pulls..
About the same advice as fly wire, good to hear this kind of confirmation.
I’ve never had to land out, but I’ve practiced it a lot, and pretty much was taught not to do a lot of turning action, of course.
Seems to me a little advice might be to pick a landing place straightahead, or almost straightahead, and come in high if you can and slip down when you know you’re going to make it.
I see bush pilots doing this in films all the time, almost like this is the way they fly, because they don’t want to come up short, especially with trees on the approach.
I have looked at the video of the Las Vegas trip. It seemed to me, visually that the approaches both to St Johns and NLV were very low. I flew Archers and 172's for many years, and to do an approach like that would require a lot of extra power. Just to be sure, I looked at the PAPI lights at NLV. It was a little hard to see, but it looked like 4 red. I was always told not to drag it in. Is there something about the Bonanza that requires you to do that? Herb Haar
Interesting question. I'm pretty sure I fly a 3 degree glideslope.... but not always to the 'suggested' point on the runway. As a rule, I prefer to use the least amount of power that I can during an approach.
Practiced this for real in a 36 with a CFI during a biennial years ago, all the way back to landing. Came to pretty much the same conclusion. 1000 ft AGL for a turn-back.
Excellent training!
@@FlyWirescottperdue I remember at the start of that biennial, I said let's do something I don't usually do in normal flying. So first we did an emergency decent from a few thousand feet (fire in the cockpit, etc), gear down power off, nose down to gear limit speed. Does that Bonanza ever come down! Then the turn-back after takeoff tests.
@@MalcolmRuthven That sounds like really good training and a great approach to a BFR!
1,000 feet if you turned too shallow or kept speed too fast. Which are mistakes. Or you were at full gross. Done it many times from 600 feet agl with 2 on board, fuel for 3 hours, winds on nose on take off at 10 knots. Sea Level density altitude.
This is the second consistent confirmation that I have seen for 1000’ AGL for A safe 180.
I wonder if you could carry a small rocket engine to be used only for a limited period in engine out situations to extend glide or allow for more speed in the take off regimen. Not jato, but sort of like it. Just enough to get you a couple of miles.
An expensive and heavy system that would use up most of the aircraft payload capacity and might get used once in 30 years.
Great video!! Would 10 degrees flap lower your stall speed and increase your turn rate? Loosing less altitude in the turn?
Another question, how much does full gross weight take off, affects the numbers in your experience?
Jose- 10 degrees of flap would help... but added complexity becomes problematic. Not many airplanes have a 10 degree setting. Much better to just fly the airplane you have. There isn't much time.
A takeoff at GW would seriously impact your energy state... count on much less performance. Same decision points... if you judge what you are doing based on your energy states you make decisions on what you see out the window. In other words the turn isn't working... you're not going to make it, choose another spot. If you can't make that judgement from looking out the window then you shouldn't even try. Land someplace forward of the wings when it happens.
Flap is contentious. Increases descent angle( shortening glide distance. In essence the a/c is not as clean) and although it lowers stall speed it increases drag dramatically. Never be afraid to throw all the flap out once commited to a " landing" and fly the plane as long as possible into the crash. Above all. WINGS LEVEL ON IMPACT.
@@pilotactor777 Good points!
Interesting demonstration, Scott!
Since an engine failure on takeoff is extremely rare for most pilots, I tried to keep it simple for students who possessed little aeronautical experience to rely on (and who likely would have relatively lengthy response time).
I taught them to land straight ahead +/- 30 degrees till 500 ft for the smoothest crash site, then no more than 90 degrees till 1000 feet, THEN maneuver for a landing based on whether the wind will help or hinder a return to the airport (the actions to be taken were part of the pretakeoff review)..
As you mentioned, a variable is the airplane's ground speed (lower ground speeds will keep the airplane closer to the airport). A 30 knot headwind on a Taylorcraft will keep its upwind leg much closer to the airport than it will an A36 or T210. Hell, you can just about do hovering touch and goes with a 30 kt wind in a T-craft! :D
The wind direction is also important, as turning in the direction with a strong crosswind may make the distance back to the airport too long to make it.
Bob Hoover was right in that it is far better to crash under control rather than crash after a stall/spin.
Cheers!
Thanks Jimmbo, good points!
Total failures are a bit rare, but partial eng failure are quite common. Most dont crash, even after turnback. We only hear about the ones that crashed, not the turnbacks or turnaround the airport that didnt.
Great training video! Next time take a safety pilot and use a vision restriction device for IMC engine failure! Needle, ball, airspeed!
At 12:19 you mentioned that “...at slower speed the turn rate is slower as well.” I believe that it is just the opposite. Doesn’t rate of turn have an inverse relationship to airspeed - for a constant bank angle, that is? I can see that with the slower speed one might shallow out the bank angle to conserve energy. Thanks
Couple of things to add to the mix: 1) When the engine fails you must aggressively push the nose down into the glide attitude so there's plenty of stall margin as you bank into the course reversal. 2) Your initial climb should be at Vx so you remain close enough to the runway to glide back. For example, if you climb out at 3 degrees in a plane that glides engine-out at 6 degrees, how will you ever make it back to the runway? And last, if you want this option in your tool kit, you must practice it so it's something you don't have to think about when the engine quits.
Not Vx, too much speed to die if engine quits totally. Vy is safer.. But if climbed at less than say 700 fpm, dont turnback with no power due that is a shallow climb. Unless a strong wind made the climb angle good enough. Mild winds. Hell no.
@@CFITOMAHAWK Right. Vx and total quit the speed will likely fall to stall speed and you still need a Bglide 45 to do to turnback. Use Vy at over 700 fpm at least.
@@outwiththem Vglide 45 degree are the steps for the Turnback.
I’ve always wondered how this would work out if you bank first in the opposite direction. Left for a few seconds and then full right turn back to runway. Seems like chances of being lined up with runway would be a bit better that way. (Great video, btw!)
John-
Thanks! There is a school of thought about checking into the wind after liftoff in case an engine failure happens. I think that the technique would not work everywhere, but for airports with few abort areas to land out on it is a good idea.
Banking first at engine failure. Negative. No altitude for this manoeuvre.
I was just thinking about this today when I saw your vid thank you . I need to put some serious thought into this maybe have coffee with a another pilot and talk this through . The higher you are the further away you are going to be from the runway but you need altitude and speed to make it back ? That’s a lot to talk about maybe two coffees . Thanks again
OTM- Just remember that Potential Energy is linear with height and Kinetic Energy goes with the square of velocity. Physics is what it is...
Ok I will need three coffees 👍
Plan very well on the ground first. With drawings and steps to take on each altitude you try. Simulator then.
Thanks Scott, along with 'ground rush' the other HF are perception of ground speed when close to the ground with tail winds and also apparent skid. Usually taking off into wind means that the return will be with a tail wind and a resulting higher ground speed. Departing an airport from the threshold with a 30 knot wind means that you will likely be off the end of the airport boundary with a very high GS, and very high energy state, not good for the meat sacks in the aircraft. Also with high DA departures the aircraft will be further out from the airfield to achieve 1000 AGL. The whole scenario is pretty complicated and I doubt that pilots would modify the altitude to account for wind effects and DA. Two other sayings that are good modifiers are: If the engine has failed the insurance company just bought the aeroplane, are you going to bet your life for the insurance company? If you are going to crash find the softest thing to crash into!
Thanks for the great content.
Graeme excellent points! Thanks!
30 knot headwind take off you dont Turnback to opposite or even a parallel runway. Maximum tailwind landing i have done on my Cherokee is 16 knots tailwind landing from 600 agl Turback to a 4,000 feet runway. I used forward slips and I cut the mixture on final, then on flare I cut the flaps on the flare to stop a bit under 3,500 feet total used. I have a video doing them.
Ever tried pulling up to make a stall turn? Your energy is converted into altitude, with minimum drag. No extra drag due to steep turn. Did you try to use minimum sink in stead of best glide (+- Vy) because you had 30 kts tailwind?
Good question Luc. You need energy to do a Whifferdill. In an engine out you don’t have it. I advocate Min Sink, or the Emergency Approach speed for the Bonanza instead of Best Glide for an engine out. Best Glide is good if you need to go farther. Main Sink is good if you want to stay in the air for more time. In an engine out on takeoff you need to stay in the air as long as you can. Even then it isn’t very long at all!
great video, but could u explain why 45 of bank? i mean isnt too much?
The turn needs to be aggressive but not to much. Time is not your friend!
Great vid. What about a tear drop turn back so you're more lined up with the runway?
Best to turn into the wind... even better to find a flat unobstructed place. If you have enough energy to make a runway, then bonus!
Maybe I missed this in this lesson, just a couple of other things to factor in might be 1. Heavy gross weight takeoffs and 2. High density altitude takeoffs, both which can rob performance from the wing and the engine. I really like your plan to use 1000’ Scott, as I used to say in the KC-135, keep it simple and stupid for me!
Good points. I was trying to keep it simple.
The 30kt head wind helps in two ways. First, as noted it helps you make it back to the airport environment. Secondly, it allows you to reach the “failure” altitude closer to the airport environment. On a calm day you will reach 300, 500, 700, or 1000 significantly further from the runway.
10 knots on ground its not 30 knots at 700 agl. If, you will have a HUGE WIND SHEAR ON DEPARTURE LEG that will almost or will STALL YOU. NO WAY 30knots even AT 1K AGL.
@@CFITOMAHAWK Scott is the one who mentioned a 30kt headwind. The fact remains the stronger the headwind component, the closer the aircraft will be to the runway at any given point during the climb. If the headwind did increase by 20kts it’s not going to cause a stall. In western alaska I often encounter winds well in excess of 40-50kts at 1000 feet and less than 15 at the surface.
@@whamo1966 The windshear due diff. wind speeds will cause big IAS changes as you climb.. and descend too. I dont believe that 30 knot at 500 agl.
But you are right about the no stall at all.
As you turn into the headwind, it will increase the indicated speed. And decrease when downwind part of the turn. I dont see that there. No 30k for me..
Very helpful and well presented. My limit is 1000AGL in a Mooney, I think a plane with more drag, like most trainers, is going to have a harder time pulling it off. I’m guessing the Bonanza and Mooney might be similar?
Thanks Nick!
What Mooney? Short body M20E 800 ft AGL is doable but you have to know exactly what you’re doing! Don’t kill yourself off my advice! The higher climb rate of the Mooney and Bonanza makes it so you’re also much closer to the runway when you hit those altitudes. I think a more aggressive nose down to keep speed and a higher bank angle would have helped the first two attempts in this video. In the Mooney I can’t do it at 500 AGL though. Be very careful doing this, definitely do it at altitude. Unloading the wings is key. Know your stall numbers at various bank angles.
@@gringoloco8576 M20C for me. Agreed, I’m being pretty conservative. Haivng some expereince with high pucker factor operations, I’ve found some extra margin works for me.
Student. Been trying these Impossible turns in a SIM. Extremely unlikely below 500’. I would not try this! 😬. Is this simulator practice good for now?
The Sim has its place. The beat thing for you to do is go fly!
I tried this in a Mooney with gear up at 1000 ft all worked out ok however I have to try this with the gear down also.
Do it safely!
Also gear up prior to the end of the runway?
Oh, yes. Most definitely!
Good video for a first attempt to instruct on a dangerous activity.
Maybe you should lead with strong warns:
1. This is a demo, DO NOT TRY THIS YOURSELF.
2. In this demo, the engine is still running. In a engine failure, the propeller is all DRAG. With the engine stopped, the descent rate in the turn is about double that with the engine at idle.
3. Every airplane is different, this demo is in a near empty Bonanza, it is in a clean, low induced drag configuration. A Cessna 172 with 3 or 4 adults on board, climbing out at 75knots is in a high weight, high induced drag, rapid speed loss , rapid rate of descent configuration.
4. Do not try this yourself, again.
Show some pictures of smoking holes in the ground.
Then get in the Bonanza and forcefully demonstrate the high rates of descent, short time available for decision making, rapidly diminishing options in turning back at marginal altitudes.
Keep up the good work.
I pretty much said that stuff in this video. Perhaps you should make your own video. Thanks for watching.
That was scary. 30 knot tail wind and still a 80 foot hole in the 200 foot hard deck.
My favorite pilot said " no return to go below a 1000. " Is this a general rule of good GA or his opinion?
In my training we talked about
L/D max being the best glide speed to use in engine out procedures. I'm not sure what that would be for your airplane. Also not sure what the difference between Vy and L/D max in theory or practice.
This whole area of Velocity needs some standardization, I learned V1...
Martin- Best Glide speed is the speed to fly if you want to maximize your distance for a given altitude. Minimum Sink is the speed to fly if you want to maximize your time aloft for a given altitude. So, if your engine out occurred just after takeoff you want to maximize your time. Unfortunately there are no easy answers.
I am assuming thay minimum sink is L/D max
@@martinjrichter55
Assuming no wind, the angle of glide relates to the lift and drag of the machine. Without drag you would glide horizontal indefinitely and without lift, you have a vertical descent (don’t we know). The actual glide angle is thus a ratio of these two (Lift to Drag), and not related to weight. Wind has an effect on the angle over the ground, but not through the "river of" air. The heavier plane will reach the ground sooner, since it glides at a higher speed, but both will glide the same distance in still air.
The minimum sink speed of a plane is flown slower, near the maximum angle of attack (not the faster best distance speed), since one is more concerned with lift than speed. Here a light plane will glide a longer period than a heavy one.
drift away from the wind as soon as one takes off so if the engine fails your turning back into the wind and will be turning back more aligned with the centerline of the runway. just my experience ( I have performed this solo with engine idle from 500" to landing. Addl weight would change the dynamics for sure. Yes it does get interesting the last 200")
That's a technique, thanks for that. In some circles folks would not be happy with you drifting off centerline. I appreciate you. watching!
@@FlyWirescottperdue everybody at my airport just knows to expect that from me.
That's a technique we use to apply with aerobatic aircraft.
Scott can I suggest you run the same exercise in the C180? I tried and I am convinced I would not turn back. I would land straight ahead. At 1000ft I was already so far from the runway that even if I turn back the aircraft would not reach the runway.
Tailwheel- Only trouble is I sold the 180. It's gone.
I think that is sorta the point. At an altitude where you have enough turning room to turn around... you are usually too far away. Pick a place to land in front of the wings is the most prudent choice.
Because the 180 can’t climb like the A36.
It depends on the airport, the downside with this airport would to end up in a forest and collisions with trees. Unless the being short is a field, I would look for a field and skip turning back to a tree covered area.
I loved how Scott mimicking Bush around 1:55. "Wouldn't be Prudent"
and "A thousand points of light"
More like Dana Carvey imitating Bush 😆
It’s tricky because you want to gain as much altitude as possible after takeoff I guess maybe cruise climb after 500 feet? Would be appropriate or do you think cruise climb all the way that’s a tough call
Why do you want altitude over speed? Didd you catch my discussion about energy? Potential Energy goes with height, Kinetic Energy goes with the square of velocity. You get more energy to do something with speed.
Vy, 1000' feet, 45 degree bank, 270 degree then 90 degree is what I was trained for.
Source: Bob Booth Instructor, 18000 Bonanza hours.
Did he demonstrate that exactly or like most CFI's in USA they just told you to do it like that- but didnt want to prove it. I taught that maneuver over a hundred times.. For real with different airplanes, different airports, different winds. Please let me know. What was the last 90 degree bank for?
Did you mean to say 90-270 instead of 270-90?
What's your opinion on N4444K ? such a shame. Would be great if you could do a video on it since you are experienced in the same aircraft. Box Canyon turn at full play. Now, you may not have experience in the mountains, but you're extreme knowledge would be great opinionating that tragedy.
Thank you Harpoon, I appreciate your confidence. I have a lot of experience flying in and above mountains... in jets. And very little experience in light planes. I need to take a course from an IP that knows about that stuff!
@@FlyWirescottperdue -- oh i see, even more impressive. But yea, the light plane experience in mountains sounds tricky at best.
How about the idea of not following runway heading and flying out 45degree to runway heading
It's an idea, other traffic is not expecting you there, so that might be an issue. But it is a tactic I would reserve for a particular situation where it was necessary, not as a regular practice.
Power idle is still power. In a real-life, dead prop scenario, I’d suggest not to attempt.
If you haven't practiced power-off landings, don't turn back. If you know your skill with a power-off a/c then you'll know immediately how much altitude is needed to turn back.
Below 1000' AGL In an actual loss of power on takeoff, I am never trying to turn back, I am looking for the first place I can put her down without a ton of maneuvering, I may be landing off airport, but better to make a controlled landing off airport than a uncontrolled landing on airport property.
I would rather be landing at 50-60mph in the horizontal than 4.8 meters per second squared on the vertical!
Renegade, that sounds like a good plan to me!
@@FlyWirescottperdue Another thought I have in hind site now having had a few minutes to think about this, another factor that is going to play a big part of this is density altitude.
Your safe turn around in Jacksonville Florida is going to be way different than up on the western slope of the Rockies where the airport is at 6,000 feet.
Throw in an engine out on a 90° day on takeoff in those conditions, and that is a big time game changer.
I am going to post this link on BT
Thanks, John, it has already been posted.
Good demo...I wouldn't but ..you were empty on a cool day. Landing downwind and a downwind turn are killers. Pick a soft spot into wind after 1000 maybe...
Thanks Garnet and yes that day I had everything in my favor and the maneuver was still sketchy.
@@FlyWirescottperdue Some day I will share my luscombe engine failure on take off story.
What saved the day was the cup of fuel in the primer. Got me a mile over plowed stubble to a hay meadow. Straight into wind.😁
@@FlyWirescottperdue ps You are doing good work here Amigo!
OK, you good!
Thanks, but full disclosure- I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express beforehand!
@@FlyWirescottperdue Wow!
I would forgot about the three potatoes.
That’s my method of counting seconds.... trying to replicate the humans factor.
Seems like many banana drivers seem to yank the gear and accelerate like mad without climbing much. Airspeed goes away very quickly but altitude buys you time( as you demonstrated). The faster you go the more drag and the faster you slow when the motor stops. At the high end when you pull a jet out of burner at Mach 2 it feels like you hit a brick wall.
Well, actually I am advocating acceleration over altitude. It's a simple matter of Physics... Potential Energy is linear with height and Kinetic Energy is the square of the velocity. When the fan quits you slow down about the same, there is little difference in induced/parasitic drag at these speeds. With a prop the old adage of the faster you go, the faster you go faster... doesn't apply. Thanks for watching!
I’m no expert for sure but best glide ratio is best glide ratio . Speed helps in the turn for sure than glide ratio gives you distance get high . It would be tempting to gain speed at the last moment to pop over that last tree before the runway but I don’t know if you would have enough altitude to gain speed at that point ? Get that new bolt on electric motor for back up that’s what I want $$$ for Christmas .
@@onthemoney7237 In this situation you have the energy you have.... gotta manage that until the end. Go with Kinetic Energy, that's my pitch (pun intended;).
“Not gonna doooo it……wouldn’t be prudent” 😂😂😂. Classic.
At a shorter strip, your bigger problem would be over-running the end after touchdown rather than making the threshold. That runway was REALLY long.
Given altitude and climb rate the situation is relative, but yes that is a factor. The point I was trying to reveal is that a Turnback should only be considered in the most favorable circumstances-- you've trained for it, you have enough energy (altitude and airspeed) to perform it. Otherwise, just plan to land off airport.
FlyWire- scott perdue I did this training with my instructor during my commercial training and I think (in an lightly packed arrow) we established 700’ as the minimum. But I could be wrong. It was a long time ago. I remember it being an interesting exercise. After that I adopted the pre takeoff call out procedure to calling out our engine failure plan. “Anything below 400’ land straight ahead, between 400-700’ pick a point 45 degrees left or right of the nose and fly to it, anything over 700’ consider all options in front or behind.” Something like that with numbers changed depending on the aircraft, weight and winds.
@@bighaasfly Excellent Takeoff Plan! Thanks for sharing!
The 4 Winds have always been a huge factor in my life, too.
All pilots should know how to turn well with 4 strong winds affecting the track over the ground. It is called Ground Reference Maneuvering in strong winds. The problem is CFI's dont want to teach GRM in strong winds, the chose a mild wind instead that wont teach anything at all. I call them Mild Maneuvering CFI. I taught GRM on 20knots winds.. Big difference..
AOA indicator might contribute to a flat turn with minimum loss of altitude
One more thing to look at and think about... not a lot of time to do it all in.
Greynerd, try different angles of bank at altitude. See how much altitude you lose during a 180° turn in your bird. Then add the wind factor vs ground track. Would you believe that a 45° bank with the with the wing unloaded will lead to less altitude loss than a 30°? The turn radius back to the runway with the wind factor added in determines a lot into the equation. And thanks to Scott for encouraging exploring the pilot's personal envelope. GO PLAY!! It can save your life.
With engine failure on t/o if you turn back 99 times in 100 you have a down wind landing.
Particularly if you didn't takeoff with a tailwind;)
I tried this at home - on a simulator.